When Learning is Trauma: Abigail Mccarel, Lois Letchford, Lisa McCarty

Welcome to When Learning Is Trauma. Welcome, Lisa. Thank you for joining us. And welcome, Abby. I'm delighted you're with us from Welcome Home Family Therapy. Abby is an expert in family therapy. She works with the whole family, including extended family and support systems. I would think that's rare. Anyway, let me go on. Together they dig deep and work to calm big emotions and improve communication, create connections, and solve family problems. A healthy family identity. will flow from developing closer family ties. I keep our introduction short. Welcome, Abby. Thank you for being with us and sharing your experience and knowledge on When Learning Is Trauma. As we start, can you tell us your background?

Absolutely. I had many, many years working with very, very traumatized children. I spent 20-plus years working working in child welfare at the same agency here in California called Five Acres. It's a residential treatment center for what we used to call disturbed children. We don't call them that anymore— behaviorally challenged children. And they were placed in the residential treatment center because of severe abuse and neglect such that they were unable to live in a family, even a foster home. And like, in my 20-plus years there, I moved around a lot. That was one of the nice things about my position there. I moved from the residential program to the group home program. So those were older children who were a little bit more able to manage themselves out in society. So they were able to go to public school, but they still didn't have a family that could manage— that could, you know, take care of them. So they lived in a group home. And then from there, I moved into the foster care and adoption program, actually helped start— get the adoption program going for the agency, and really enjoyed that work. And I kept being pulled more into doing clinical supervision, which I was kind of reluctant to do at first because when you're a supervisor, you don't have just your own cases, you have everybody's cases. So I had to balance that with my work, with my family life. And so finally I decided to go ahead and do that, and I loved it. I loved Being in that position. I never considered myself a teacher. I didn't go into teaching for all the reasons you don't go into teaching, but I really enjoyed the leadership role in that position. So I came to my work with— in my current practice, which is primarily with gifted and twice exceptional children, not completely— with this background of childhood trauma. And I honestly didn't know a lot about the gifted world, even though I had 3 gifted and 2 twice exceptional children. I didn't really give it much thought. It was just the way they were. And they went to that after-school gifted program, and it wasn't very inspiring.

No.

So, you know, I always supplemented them, and I always found other things for them to do. And I thought for sure that, you know, they had some some serious emotional problems, but I never once connected it to being gifted until I came— I was coming out of retirement. I took 10 years off while my children, my 3 daughters were in middle school and high school to stay home with them and launch them. And when I went back to the field and was talking to my colleagues about like, what's going on, you know, what are people doing? And it was really clear I didn't want to return to agency. work, but a colleague of mine and friend from my faith community was retiring, and she'd had a practice working primarily with gifted kids. So that launched a whole discussion between her and I, and I spoke with her about how I'd like to work with family and, you know, really help the parents. And she goes, yeah, that would fit so nicely with this population. So I just kind of jumped on the bandwagon. I did all my homework. I went and got certified with SANG to be a provider on their website, and I've just been on a learning curve ever since. But I think that the true— the parallel and the draw for me from my work with traumatized children to gifted kids is that the behaviors were the same. And I'm like, well, there's some, you know, okay, maybe I just got lucky, right? Like, maybe it's just that this is the kind of kid that I've learned to deal with and to help over the years. But it's been a journey for me to understand How being twice exceptional in particular can be traumatizing. I've joked around with people and I've said if I ever were to write a book, it would be called The Trauma of Being Gifted.

But I'm—

that book's probably been written sometime already. But I'm finding in the families that come to me for help, the entire family system is traumatized. They are at their wit's end with how to help these really perplexing, bewildering, challenging, and complex kids. So, you know, a lot of the understanding that I have about trauma came from my work through the years, but it parallels and fits really nicely with my current work. The science has changed in that time. I've had to do a lot of Studying to get up to speed on what's changed in the parenting field and in the child psychology field. A lot has changed. So it's been very healing for me too. So that's, that's how I got there.

What are you seeing with, you know, the twice exceptional in particular? What's the behaviors that you're seeing?

It's all the behaviors, everything that you could possibly imagine. From, you know, all the attention challenges, the hyperactivity, the distractibility, all the things that go along with ADHD. Most of the children in my practice have been diagnosed with ADHD. But then also we get with the older kids just like, you know, some shutdown behaviors, a lot of defiance and disrespect. There's aggression in some of the families. You know, these kiddos, they just don't know what to do to handle their conflicts in a way that keeps their minds settled down, so they're striking out physically. It takes a toll, these behaviors—

On everybody.

On the marriage. So oftentimes, you know, the marriage is at risk when the parents come to me. So a lot of the work that I do at the beginning is assessing whether or not I can even help them, because if the marriage is failing, I'm not a marriage therapist. That's a very highly specialized field. And so if it's that much in trouble, I will refer them for marriage counseling first, or simultaneously sometimes. And sometimes it gets unearthed in the work.

Mm-hmm.

You know, as we get into it, it becomes so clear that the parents are just so far apart in their marriage and in their relationship that they can't come together to parent their children in a way that makes sense to them.

So, Abby, can you just explain very briefly to some people that might not really understand what the twice exceptional is?

Sure. So twice exceptional is a term that's been used in the gifted community to kind of explain the disconnect between having a child that might be really intellectually advanced, can have Amazing conversations with adults, gets concepts in school really quickly, maybe doesn't have to study much, just, you know, the bright, really bright intellectual kids. But they also struggle with other possibly learning disabilities or emotional problems. So it could be anything from, like I mentioned earlier, ADHD or dyslexia. as learning disabilities, they could be on the spectrum, have some autistic tendencies, or it could be that they, they have emotional problems, like they suffer from severe anxiety or severe depression, and that gets in the way. So those are the kids that maybe can keep up academically, but just not fun— they're not thriving socially and emotionally.

Mm-hmm.

So it's keeping them in a really dark place. So yeah, it's— and some kids have— I mean, I've heard it thrown out there, the idea of thrice exceptionality, like there's 3 exceptionalities. So maybe they have a learning disability and they're depressed and they're super smart. And then maybe there's exceptionalities because of challenges they're having with sexual identity or gender or culturally. So it can get quite complicated and layered.

And one aggravates the other, doesn't it, really? You know, I can imagine The complexity, if you've got this problem and then you've got the others, it just explodes because you can't even separate them really.

No, because you can't pick apart someone's mind like that. And that's why parents are so confused and overwhelmed because it is so complex. And they just, you know, it's sad, but with parenting it's not something that you have to have any training to do. Right? So here you are, and most parents will parent the way they were parented. And given where we are in the evolution of society, that means that most parents were parented in what I call an old style or old school way. I mean, I know we were all parented that way.

Yeah.

But it's changed. That's what I was referring to earlier. In the 10 years I took off, like, everything changed. I'm so glad that it changed because What I did wasn't good, honestly.

Not it. I agree with you. And I think what I'm realizing now as I'm old is you think you as a child or a parent came out okay, so what happened to you must have been fine, without recognizing what has impacted your parenting.

Right, right. It is really complicated and you can't— it's such a challenging thing to think about. Did you come out fine? And do you— did you come out fine? And if you had had the understanding and the compassion and the resources and the space, and if someone really saw you for who you were and listened to you, would you still would have come out fine, but maybe you wouldn't have suffered quite so much along the way?

Yes.

So I guess, you know, for me going going back and parenting from a different perspective, from a positive, conscious, mindful, encouraging way that works to build trust and relationships. I think the suffering— I know it is in the work that I'm doing— the suffering is decreasing. So yeah, there's still challenges.

Yes.

We've got a couple of questions from Xena. Do you see shutdown as a reaction to actual trauma or monetary Overwhelm. Momentary, momentary, sorry, momentary overwhelm. It's small print for me.

Yeah.

Like, isn't that a day or hour a week difficult?

Yeah, I mean, that's really, it's really hard question to answer. I think a lot of the times we're not going to know the why to certain behaviors, whether it's shutdown or meltdown or explosion, or, you know, some of the more challenging, self-injurious behaviors that kids get into, it's— it could be so many different reasons. Because everything that has happened to that child up until that moment is— could be a trigger for that.

Yeah.

Their whole— their entire existence. And most of which, if they've come from trauma— not most of which, but a good deal of which— is going to be hidden to their conscious mind, you know, because the traumatic memories Are flooded with emotion and our brains tend to not connect that to the higher thinking brain. So it just sits in our body. I mean, you opened this up with saying earlier, maybe before we were recording, that you were reading The Body Keeps the Score. But the body definitely does remember. So it's important to try and understand. And so outside the heat of the moment, I often work with parents to try and talk with, with kids about what was going on with them, like And I try and stay away from the why questions, you know, getting them to talk more about like what's hard about it. You know, what's your experience, you know, and see if you can really pick it apart that way. And when you can do that, you can come up with some solutions and kind of work with the child, maybe not even really knowing that it might have been something— heaven forbid it was a child that had grown up in foster care and something had happened and— You know, they're not necessarily remembering why they're afraid of the dark or why a certain tone of voice or why going to school or why— it could be a million different things. So it could be both. It could be either. It could be something completely different in terms of that shutdown behavior. But clearly when a child is shutting down like that, they're in huge distress.

Yes.

That is a clear indication that their brain is reading danger in some regards and they're going into Thank you. You know, Robin Goble calls it the possum brain. We're like, I'm going to play dead so that no one tries to kill me. They're going to think I'm dead already. Don't pay attention to me. I'm not here. And physiologically, when we shut down like that, it is our— it is our body's kind way of anesthetizing us. Because if we are going to be eaten alive by a predator, it will hurt less because The shutdown behaviors cause a dissociation and a disconnection from the body. So it's really quite a remarkable brain that we have. It's just that we are still responding to old threats that, you know, aren't there, and our body thinks that they are.

I find that really hard. I've got more questions. See if I can read them. Can you read them for me? Because I can't see. This one here, Xena. Xena's second question.

I relate to this a lot. I've heard it referenced casually, but this feels more intimate and straightforward. Why do you think high academic achievement relates to emotional problems?

Um, did you hear that? Yeah, so why, why would a high-achieving, maybe gifted individual also have emotional problems? It's not a done deal.

Right.

It's not necessary. It's— one does not cause the other, and they're, you know, they're not necessarily correlated. But there are a certain group of people who struggle with social and emotional development who also have a high IQ. And the reason is that they find it— there's so many. One of them is that they don't fit in. Often, you know, they want to have these really deep conversations that have great breadth to them, and their peers are just not interested. So they might look unusual or sound funny, so they are that kid that sticks out a little bit. And then there's all sorts of issues that can develop from that in terms of fitting in socially and finding your tribe, feeling like people understand you.

Yeah.

And then, you know, just even being okay with yourself. So they don't necessarily cause one another. And, and it's mixed out there from the research that I say, Fred, that says, yeah, gifted kids can do really well, you know, because their gifts can help them through these challenging times. So they can put it in perspective, they can think it through, they can find resources and have support to do that, or it's the complete opposite and they get remorse or depressed or they have so much anxiety. So it's hard to actually categorize it that way.

So basically, along with that, it's like extremely high anxiety or depression, as you mentioned. She— Xena also wrote back with, I literally play dead when I leave campus. I immediately try to distract myself. And I have homework and things to do, but I feel I can't get to it. I'm in grad school now. I'm better on campus.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like she is in the freeze response of the fight, flight, or freeze response to danger. So whatever is going on, um, is definitely triggering, I'm not safe, I'm not safe. And, you know, it'd be great to be able to talk with somebody, see if she can get underneath that a little bit and explore what's going on with that.

In my experience, a lot of these learners who are a little bit different feel very misunderstood, and it's exhausting for one. I don't know how it is in the East Coast. At least our schooling system does things pretty much one way. If you don't fit that, and if— or if you challenge the teacher, sometimes you You're, you know, you stick out. Teachers don't really want questions necessarily. They really don't have time for that. And I think this misunderstood feeling can be pretty, can be pretty damaging.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I mean, it's all— they're almost lucky if they, if they have something to gauge that against, that they know that they're in a gifted program, like they've been identified, that there's something there, there. It's the kids that don't know, that the resources aren't there in the school, or the parents don't have the wherewithal, or even, you know, just the knowledge of what giftedness is, that these kids, they have nothing to bounce that off of. Like, so they just go through thinking there's something horribly wrong with them.

Yeah.

That they don't fit in at all. So, I mean, having a diagnosis, a descriptor of giftedness can be really helpful to say, okay, now I can learn about this. At least I know what it is. You know, like for the example I was talking about earlier with my daughters, 2 of them which are twice exceptional, I didn't know. And so I was putting all the— I misdiagnosed them.

Mm-hmm.

And I as a diagnostician, I did that because I had no understanding of giftedness, no perspective of it whatsoever. It wasn't anything I ever took a class in. I'd never read an article about it. I just I was happy my kids got some extra arts and crafts, you know, in the afternoon. So—

Yeah, I think too, like, this— the bipolar diagnosis seems to be way overused, at least what I've seen. And I'm not suggesting there's not such a thing or that some folks don't benefit from medications, but I think some of what we're seeing isn't necessarily that, but it's more of the frustrations and the highs and lows of some of this internal, you know, problems between feeling like you're, you're smart in this area, maybe struggling in another area, or just feeling isolated or whatever is causing that, that I think that, you know, once you get the— I work with adults in an inpatient drug and alcohol facility.

Right.

A lot of them will be diagnosed as ADHD or bipolar. Now, in that case, we're also dealing with substances, so that can sort of mask some of this too. But once that bipolar gets put on there, I don't know, it seems like it carries them, it sticks with them, and it gets into their psyche somehow. And then, I don't know, in your, in your field, do you see overdiagnosis of some of that?

I did 15 years ago when I was working in agencies and had regular consultations with psychiatrists. And it seemed like they moved from— this is just my perspective on it— looking at medicating kids with a bunch of psychotropics for, like, schizophrenia almost, like that's how they treated them, into moving it into more of a bipolar issue. And yes, I do think that it was overused and that people didn't have the tools or the understanding of the brain development and the science wasn't in the place. I've kind of lost track in the last 15 years as to whether or not that's still happening. I don't see those kids in my practice. If they're that dysregulated and that dysfunctional, they're probably not at home. That is a really hard— if that's truly what's going on with them, that's a super hard diagnosis to manage in the home setting. And if that's the case, they've already been to the psychiatrist. They're already meeting with individual professionals that individually work with children with these disorders. And one of the things that I've done over the years is I've moved away from doing individual therapy with children. I did that, you know, for 20 years in all of the treatment facilities that I worked in. Oh, thank you. And I, you know, they just kept going back to whomever, the childcare staff, the foster parents, the adoptive parents, the group home parents, and nothing got resolved. You know, like the parents weren't involved in the treatment. So when I was working in the foster care program, I kind of took a leap and said, okay, I'm going to go to the foster care house myself. That's not uncommon for social workers to do when they're doing case management. Social workers from our agency did that, but I wanted to go into the home as the clinician and see what was really going on there. I mean, the adjustment of a child in a new home like that is an issue for the entire family. It's not just something that the child can fix.

Right.

I started working intensely with parents then, and I loved doing it, and they responded well to it. The kids were so much more comfortable in their own home. The families didn't have to drag everyone to my office and wait in the waiting room. None of that was going on. So I did develop my private practice with an in-home component prior to the pandemic, and I loved it. I loved meeting people in their own homes. I feel comfortable there. It's just something I'm super familiar with.

That's brilliant. Yeah, that's brilliant.

It is brilliant. And then the pandemic hit, right?

Yeah.

So I am— I am not— I have not returned to families' homes. I have a lot of young children in my practice who are not vaccinated. And so that's— that I'm not completely opposed to doing it again someday. But now I've become so busy. And because I live in Los Angeles, going to see all these people isn't even feasible because of the traffic. I can't see as many people as I can online.

Yeah.

In Los Angeles, is there a lot of therapy available for individuals? They're kind of— here it's a bit— we're in Pennsylvania on the East Coast, or I am. Lois is in New York. And it's really hard to get therapy. And it's very easy to get medications. And it's very easy to send kids to psych hospitals where the families are actually excluded. The families— and I had this happen to a friend who was surprised that they wouldn't allow her to get in on the conversation at all. And the child was medicated and medicated and medicated, and she had a tough time trying to find out what's happening. And, you know, and this is a person who has a severe learning disability. I don't like the term disability, but that's what we call it. And this person had a lot of trauma from school.

Mm-hmm.

And also personal relationships because, you know, it's difficult for them. And to not include the family is— it doesn't make any sense. It's hard to get therapy to begin with. And then when we do, we just focus on the child. So what you're doing, I think, is fantastic.

Yes, it's perfect. Yeah, I actually— well, to answer your first question, it's— I don't think it's hard here on the West Coast to find therapists for children. I think there's many more, especially now that you can do it online. And, you know, with the pandemic, everyone had to jump online, which is much harder to do in an individual session, especially with a small child. But I really take my hats off— my hat off to the play therapists and the child therapists that are doing that. They figured out really unique ways of doing it. And at the same time, my theory of change comes from a family systems perspective. And I feel with the parents, being the ones who are the leaders in the family and holding the authority, that I put my energy there. I put my energy into helping parents understand their kids, giving them the tools and strategies to be able to effectively work with all of the challenging behaviors. And my motto is I help parents become healers in the family. So I do a 90-minute session, but usually a good hour, sometimes to an hour and 15 minutes, is alone with the parents.

Yes.

And in that time, we're working through things with them and giving them tools and strategies. And then we're pulling the kids in for the last probably 15 minutes or a half hour that gives them an opportunity to practice what we've been talking about. So it's really very hands-on and very much coaching in a lot of ways. And they're really grateful for it. They really appreciate that time.

I could have used that. I needed it.

I desperately needed it.

Yeah, the chaos in our family was really quite incredible. We didn't know what was going on and we were scared. And I just thought, you know, here was a kid that just didn't want to do what he was supposed to do. And I thought, he's from a very good family. We have good morals. We're good people. And part of it really, I have to say, was my, my feelings of guilt and embarrassment in a community where I thought that people are looking at me like I'm a bad parent. And that just, that, I mean, I could have really used some untangling and some, you know, try, yeah. I mean, the trauma that we all went through was pretty much unbelievable.

Yes, it's extremely traumatic. I went through it myself, you know, with the challenges my daughters had. And I'm just really grateful that I can go back and do things differently now. And I am healing myself through the work as well. And I don't ever miss an opportunity to let the parents that I know that I'm working with that, you know, like, it wasn't until my daughter was— my middle daughter was probably 21, 22 that we actually bonded through a lot of hard work and going to therapy with her. And it was just that challenging. But that's also a good indication that there is hope. Mm-hmm. You know, I say to them, it's never too late to bond with your children, but the work is often First with the parent. I mean, we do talk— I do work with the family and I do work with the couple to get on the same page, but really my beginning work is with the individual parents together in the session, like helping them learn ways to manage their own dysregulation because they need to be able to be— to put off a sense of safety to the dysregulation that they're experiencing with their children.

Yes.

If they're so easily triggered and don't have tools to take that breath, to step away, to splash water on their face, to talk to their partner, to do the things that keep them grounded, nothing good is going to come of that because they're just going to be triggering, triggering, triggering, and escalating, right? So the parent needs to be at a lower level of dysregulation so they can— the child can be brought down. We call it co-regulating. So they need to be brought down to the level of a calm parent, but parents aren't calm when they first come to see me.

Yes.

They're just not. A lot of work is around helping them.

We don't— you're not given the skills. As you said, you're not given— unless you've been in some training or some psych program, you're not given the skills. But I've got 2 questions.

Okay.

Start with Christopher Chase or C Squared first because that's what you were talking about most recently.

This one. What would you recommend for people that can't afford to get therapy for themselves or their kids?

So this would be a parent?

Well, he's not a parent yet, but I know Christopher, but he said, what would you recommend who can't afford therapy for themselves or their kids?

I would suggest, so if we're talking about a twice exceptional situation here, I would definitely recommend just Diving into the research yourself, doing the reading, getting the resources. There's so much, so many good books written out there about it. And you know, for all of the or all of the challenges that social media has, one of the benefits of social media is that you can find your tribe out there. You can find other like-minded people who have to be discerning. You have to ask the right questions. You need to be cautious in what you disclose. flows in terms of your personal information, but you're— use that social networking for good.

Yeah.

You know, find people who you can get good advice from and feel supported from, and, you know, hop on in the middle of the night when you're struggling with someone, because you know somewhere around the world someone is going to be there and able to respond. There's a lot of really good Facebook groups out there for parents of twice exceptional folks, twice exceptional adults, and all the challenges that go around with them. Excellent.

I don't know, what's Chris asking now?

So this is from Chris Lashua, who goes by Tofu. His question is, it's clear that many students feel pressured to be the best, high honor roll, etc. What advice do you have for students that are feeling burnt out/feeling feeling like they're not good enough? And there's a second part of this, of the question, can be asked for both high-achieving students that don't have a learning disability and also students that are struggling due to dyslexia.

What advice do you have for students who are feeling burnt out, like they're not good enough?

Okay, let's start with that because that was a lot.

It was a lot.

I would say, gosh, I wish so much These kids can just know that they can just do them. Like, do you.

Yeah.

Be you. And there's no— I tell parents this all the time— there's no homework sheet, no math assignment, no book report, no project, no grade that's more important than your relationship with your kid and/or your relationship with yourself.

Right.

Um, school is something imposed on people, you know. There's many, many different ways to do it, and if it's not working for you, if it's making you sick, unhealthy, unwell, depressed, anxious, suicidal, self-injurious, it's not worth it, you know. There's another way to do it. There's all sorts of other options for school. There's online school, there's homeschooling, there's unschooling, there's taking a gap year, you know. I just— it's so important for these kids and parents to know nothing is more important than the well-being of your child, nothing to do with school. It will come, they'll learn, especially if they're bright, they'll get it. So self-compassion would be my biggest response to this one person who's asking about themselves, like for them not feeling good enough and not being Worthy is explore Kristin Neff. She made her life's passion about bringing the concept of self-compassion to the world, and she's got free resources on her website about activities that you can do to learn how to be kind to yourself. And if you're in an environment or situation where people are not kind to you, you can still do this for yourself.

Yeah.

It is not Yeah, but it's not hopeless. You are not hopeless. You, you absolutely can find your way. Find the people that get you, that understand you, and don't give up on that. Because we now— another benefit of social media, we, we have access to the world. There's going to be other people out there that you can find, that you can confide in, that you can trust, and just feel not so alone and isolated.

That's a brilliant response. You know, to me, that's— we need to hear that more often, that work, you know, that you— the finishing of the worksheet or whatever you're doing is really irrelevant long term.

I know, and it feels like it's like an emergency, doesn't it? And then you get into this battle with your kid, but your teacher said it's got to be done, and it's just like, you know, it's okay. Just mom and dad, take a breath. You don't want to Model that kind of anxiety around this stuff to your kids, or around work, or around productivity, or learning. Learning needs to be joyful. So find a different way to teach it to them, you know. Go outside and go places and do things that teach these things to kids, you know. Half the time that kids get out of school, they're just so tired of learning. And I think that's probably a downside to being so connected. With the information is there's more information than you could ever know, yet somehow if it's out there, you should be able to know it.

So—

But even the comparing, I was going to ask you, in your career, have you seen a difference between having all this social media? Because, you know, everybody's showing their best side and their children are going to the best colleges and the best this and the best that, and the parents and everybody's like, oh, we have to have all this stuff and our kids have to be perfect. And the kids are looking at it, think we have to be perfect and I think social media is good for certain things, and as you said, for connection. But do you see a difference in your career as social media has become more popular with those people that are competing?

Every day, every single day. And I would say that is the most common theme across all of my families, is how they manage that aspect of their children's and family lives, is balance. You know, how do we balance screen time with real lifetime and what is healthy, how can we be good digital citizens, how do we keep our children safe. And I am constantly urging, encouraging, coming up with plans to help move families off screens and into real life.

Mm-hmm.

And I hope that there's a backlash to this screen world too. I see it a little bit.

Yeah.

With some young adults where they're coming up with some strategies to not have it be the focus of their lives, and then there's other folks who just, you know, walk around with their headphones in and their phone in their hand connected all the time. So yes, I do see even like week to week, I see that it's growing exponentially challenging, and now that we did this whole online Yeah, it's worse. They're going to school and they're online on programs in school on tablets, and it's like, what's happening? And it's their brain. It is their brain getting so tired, so overworked, so dysregulated.

The—

even, you know, any— anytime that you're interacting with the screen, your brain reads it as As something that is fight, fire, freeze. So it's traumatizing to be on an interactive screen. So I'm always looking for ways to gracefully set more limits on the technology, especially when they're so little.

Yes.

With the little ones, by the time they're teenagers, it's a, it's a much harder battle. And the digital natives that are coming up now that are teenagers, it's It's just, it's really hard. But parents can make a decision when their youngsters are young to have a healthy balance between their digital life and their offline life. So yes, to answer your question, it is a huge problem.

This has been fantastic, you know, because we haven't talked about the family and the family issues and all that come through with family background to children who are different. So what you say to me, you've really highlighted how important it is first that parents regulate themselves. But, you know, I would even add that as your children are growing up to be willing and open to more ideas on dealing with children because the world has changed dramatically.

Yeah, it has. And And not dramatically enough in some ways, you know.

Yes.

So yes, people are watching you parent now, and maybe that's part of the problem with comparisonitis, right? That people are watching and paying attention in ways that we didn't before and couldn't possibly know before. So it's been challenging in that way to, you know, find a balance with it all. But yeah. I agree with you, Lois. It really does start with the parents when it comes to helping these really challenging and complex kids. And even, you know, I'm looking at the name of your book reversed, A Memoir About Over Your Shoulder. And I didn't mention this at the beginning, but I am hugely dyslexic.

Yes.

And was never officially diagnosed and did all of the things Yeah. I did all the things to overwork, work twice as hard, compensate, fill in the blanks. I did it and I didn't know any better. I didn't know any different. I just always thought there was something wrong with me or I wasn't smart or something. And it's great that you're out there with this material and that you guys are doing this podcast and you're bringing this information to people. Because I didn't have to suffer alone and other kids don't have to suffer alone. So you're reaching out to all the right people to get the word out, like, let's help, let's shift our lens here and bring more compassion.

And children shouldn't come out traumatized from an institution that's been set up to care for them.

Yes. My work is to help the parents make that shift. The school systems is a huge creature to even look at changing that model. So yeah, that is another big— we've talked about that in our meetings too, how hard that is.

And our first point, you know, what we're trying to do is just awareness that it does happen. That's my goal anyway.

Yeah. I was just saying, I think that if it is to change, it's going to come from the parents. You know, I do think that there's going to be power there, that they, they are the consumers, right?

Yeah.

So you can go in and ask for something different when they know, and you guys are helping them to know.

Yeah, we're starting to see a little bit more of a change where parents are hugely dissatisfied and, and they know more now. So we've been dealing with this for decades, and I think social media in that way has helped to bring some of this to the forefront. Um, I love how you said compare it to Comparisonitis. That was hysterical, and it's like perfect. But, but I do think that, you know, the social media, at least in the case of bringing awareness to all this— and this is Dyslexia Awareness Month— I think we're gonna finally start to see some change. But I don't know, like, it's, it's very slow.

Yes.

And for the people going through it, we need some tools to help them through it.

Yeah. I'm going to call this to a close because our time has disappeared again. And before we start, I've got to say thank you to my son Isaac and his buddy Chris for their technical support, because I— this shouldn't— show wouldn't go on without them. And for the guests who continually make comments and ask questions for Chris and Xena, and Chris for being part of it. And sharing their thoughts because they bring a lot, a lot of practical questions to our guests. Thank you, Abby. Have you got one last thought before we head off, before we close?

I would say just don't give up. You know, I would say for me, that's my, that's my most tenacious quality is that I don't quit. I'm constantly trying. I'm constantly learning new things and What can you know? And with everything else going on, what else can you do is just not give up.

So that's brilliant. I love it. And where can people find you?

I am at Welcome Home Family Therapy on the web, and you'll get all of my contact information there.

Fantastic.

And Lisa—

and it's in the show notes, your description's in the show notes. Lisa, where can we find you?

Mostly on Facebook, Monday afternoons, usually with Lois. With When Learning Is Trauma, and I am on LinkedIn, but I don't know how to use it very much, and I forgot my password to Instagram, so—

And this is, this is an interesting session because tomorrow night we talk to Pete Fire in the Belly, who's dyslexic, and following Monday night we've got a prerecorded session with Dr. Mary Helen Imorden-Ouyang, So that her work just blows me away. Do you know of her work, Abby? No.

You'll have to send it to me.

Emotions and Learning. And it talked— you talked about the brain. It's brain research, but connecting the emotions and the two. So you'll find me on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, and my website is loislatchford.com.

It's all in the description.

It's all in the description. What else do I have to say? I don't know, I forget. Hit like, hit subscribe, and share it, and let's get the idea out that, you know, going to school should not be a traumatic experience. Hit the bell for notifications, share the channel with your friends and family, and for all who are dyslexic so they benefit from hearing stories and books. That's— my book is on Amazon and everything else is on my website. And my son makes sure I say all of these things.

It's your coach.

My coach, you're right. Abby, thank you for joining us. Thank you, thank you.

It was my pleasure.

Thank you for having me. So much fantastic.

How I wish I'd known you 30 years ago.

Thank you.

Or even 5.

We are—

this and the other component is this: we're going to finish this series and then we have a break and we'll be back next year. So we've got the last 3 people for this series. So thank you for listening. Thank you for joining us.