When Learning is Trauma: Alex Onalaja, Lois Letchford, & Lisa McCarty

We've got When Learning Is Trauma. We have Alex Onalaja from the UK joining us and Lisa McCartney. Don't start yet, don't start yet, I'm being told. Alex, where are you in the UK?

Manchester.

I thought so.

Yeah, Manchester. Yeah, just bear with me. Let me just, just realize I've got one of my windows open. Just to reduce the noise.

We're late today. We're having problems with the platform, which makes us, you know, it all takes time. And but we've got to start a little bit early to get on time, right?

I'm with you.

That's all right. But you know, we just— I think my son is trying to do it so that we have more than 45 minutes.

Okay.

Sometimes, you know, we get caught in a discussion And it just yeah. We've got 40 minutes from when you start. Right. Okay.

Yeah.

I I'm really curious to know your story.

Yeah.

You know because in in the U.S. what happens is that generally it's a cultural divide who receives services. Lisa, can you speak please?

Can you hear me?

Can we hear Lisa?

I'm speaking, I'm speaking, sound check. Lois, do you want me to keep talking?

I think so. Tell us about your work, Lisa.

Oh my goodness, my work, um, I work in an inpatient drug and alcohol facility and, um, we're very busy. It was a very busy day. I am still dressed in my outfit. I ran home from work to get here.

You guys ready?

Yes, we're ready. We're ready to go live.

Copy.

We've got a lawnmower in the background today, aren't we lucky?

It's actually nighttime where I am, luckily for me, so there's no outside noise. It's about 9 PM on our side, so—

We shouldn't be able to hear it on my end now.

Ah, perfect.

Yes, I can't actually hear anything from my end until you actually mentioned it.

Ah!

Hello, welcome to When Learning Is Trauma with Lisa McCartney, and today we have Alex Onalaja from Manchester, UK. I am delighted for him to share his story of surviving school To be— to succeed and pass on his knowledge. Welcome, Alex. Thank you very much for having me. You know, and you start by saying, after 1,000 job applications, severe doubts, and late-night fears, I wrote my first book, Lost Now Found: The Secret to Unlocking Your Hidden Potential in 30 Days. But before you got to that, Even in school, you struggled with literacy. Tell us about that.

Well, first of all, I'd probably like to take you back to memory lane in terms of like how it all started for me. I hated school, literally, I hated school. Just anything about school makes my— literally, it makes my soul crawl. And I can remember like vividly when I was about, about 3 going to 5, my little brother basically from the age of 2, 1, 2 could actually read like fluently, like he could literally pick up anything, any big vocabularies, he would have a go at it. But for me on the other hand, I literally just, I see the words, I'm like, nope, it's not happening. Literally I just run as far as I can from anything books. It carried on all the way down to like the age of about—

8.

I remember about 10, and it got to a point where my little brother was so, you know, academically inclined that I was basically repeating the same class. So I repeated the same class like 3 times, and on the 3rd time, they felt so sorry for me that my little brother actually surpassed me academically. And, you know, that brings a big shame to the society and everything. And I just remember like waking up every morning and just feeling like Not again. It's like just this constant—

Yeah.

Just, it's like a, it's like a— I feel like literally, I remember even when we were in school, they used to wear hats as part of the uniform, so we put on like a face cap. I don't know, you know, what you, how you, um, what you guys call it down there, but it's like, you know, the little, uh, face cap. And after a while, they stopped the face cap, but for me, I was the only person in the entire school wearing the face cap for a very long time. because I felt like it's the only way I can actually just hide myself.

Yeah.

And just not be seen, just feel invisible if I could. And I have my, you know, my naughty days as well where I skip school and pretend to be ill and, you know, pretend to have cold and also, but deeply inside I knew it's just a case of, you know, I'm just doing anything I could to just avoid going to school. Um, my parents are very concerned and they kind of, um, Because I'm from an academic background. My granddad was actually a principal in a school. My step-grandma was actually— she's a lecturer. Practically, like, literally everyone in the family is actually academically inclined. So you can just imagine going to school, coming back home, and having to deal with more academic people who just expect you to excel, and you just know you just don't fit in. So throughout my whole secondary school, and this is even all the way down to like when I was actually studying back in Nigeria. Um, this is even before I even, you know, migrated with my parents to the UK. Um, and it just didn't make no sense. It's like all my exams are literally just F, F. I'm not even sure what— I'm sure in every continent or worldview, F is not a good thing. It basically just means fail, fail, fail. Um, and But one thing always struck me, which was I was good with numbers, but not literate, not in literature. I was good with numeracy, but not literacy.

Yeah.

And that kind of made me more inclined towards subjects like maths, physics, a bit of chemistry. And I tend to like get some good grades around there, and that kind of gave me a bit of confidence that I'm certainly not as dumb as I think I am. Um, or as they have obviously made me believe I am. And one day, um, this was like, you know, still in Nigeria, I wanted to prove to myself that I'm sure there's something more than what I'm believing. There's something more than this. So there was an exam in particular where it's like 14 out of 15— sorry, um, it's basically 15 questions in maths, okay? But about 200 people took the same test and they said out of everyone there's only 2 people who got 14 out of 15. So let's remember, this is something where I'm usually notorious for getting a lot of Fs in my grades, so I was not expecting anything whatsoever. 200 people, these are like probably like 50% of them are very highly intelligent and very, you know, they're performing above the average. So when they said 2 people, I was like, okay, right, count me out. I just put my hat really down and make sure I could just, you know, kind of just sink myself out of the situation. And they called the first person out. That person was literally like expected. He's literally— he can even do mathematics in his sleep. And then when they called the second person, everyone's jaw dropped. No one saw it coming. I couldn't even believe it. I was like, is this a mistake? Did someone like accidentally put my name in there or something? But I remember something that made that moment magical for me was the fact that how much I was willing to prove to myself that I am not as dumb as I think I am.

Yeah.

And I think that drive in itself made me stay up all night, stay up all day, I was willing to go the extra mile just to prove that point to myself. And that was the moment for me that I realized maybe I need to start believing in myself and stop taking what people are telling me and absorbing it in and making it my reality. So fast forward, my parents basically— my mom was a nurse and my dad, he used to be an engineer, but then the industry within the engineering sector in Africa was not really the best at the time. So they both migrated to the UK, and later in about 2005, I joined them. And at this time, I was still in my teens, I was 16. So I came into the UK, and you can just imagine the academic structure is just completely the opposite. Coming from Africa, we tend to do about 7 subjects in one day. So I'm talking maths, physics. So it's like 1 hour maths, 1 hour physics in the space of 8 hours of you being in school. So it's like, it's a lot of information to take in in one day. And I came into the UK where things are a bit more subtle. It's a bit like in the space of, let's say, 6 hours or 4 hours in some cases, you probably have one of each. So it'd be like 2 subjects in one day, you know, a lot of support network, a lot of, you know, almost like close interaction with the teachers, which is something we don't really get, you know, back at home in Africa. So it's like that opportunity gave me the platform to be able to have that close relationship with the teachers where they're able to support my flaws and see, you know, areas where I'm really struggling. But yet again, it still didn't change. Something was wrong. It's just I always try my best, I put in my 100%, and when my grades come back, I'm like, this is not right, something's not adding up here. So one day, one of my teachers said to me, he said, uh, he said, I think you might need to get yourself checked. I think you might be dyslexic. I looked at him like, I'm like, dyslexic? What was that? fine, don't worry, just get a specialist to look into it. But naive, I was very naive. I didn't really know what that is. I've never heard of it. I don't even know that even existed. I just know if it's one of two ways, it's either you really end up doing education or you just suck at it. And I just believe I was just on the suck end. So, um, it came to the final year again and the same thing happened to me again. They said to me, they said, you're failing woefully, okay? Literally, you're getting just average grades, which will actually lead you to potentially fail because you're kind of literally just hanging on by your, you know, by the edge. And I panicked again. I was like, no, this is not happening. I have to prove myself. I need to find that, that boy that got the 14 out of 15 again, you know. I need to prove myself again. And I was willing to do anything necessary. A lot of sleepless nights. And same thing again, within 3 months of going all fail, I turned, you know, I turned the direction of the situation situation, and I got double distinction, which is practically the best you can get in that subject in the entire course, which obviously then progressed me into the university. This is still me that hates education so bad that I could literally do anything to try to run away from it. But because in my— like I said, in my family, we're highly academically inclined, so there's that pressure where it's like, when you complete high school, it's like, great, now you need to move on to college. But when you complete college, great, now you need to move on to university. Once you complete university, oh, now it's great, it's now time to go into PhD. That's basically practically how it is. It was like competition within the family like that. So there was this constant pressure. So I went to university as well. I hated engineering because initially I studied engineering because I love numbers. But the only trouble is I'm great at the numbers, but when they're saying this is a scenario and they're writing it in literature and all that, I'm just like, I'm gone. I mean, you lost me there. So, um, I struggled with that before, right? I cannot keep doing this to myself. I need to find something I'm comfortable with. And one of the things, the traits I've noticed is I have problem-solving skills.

Yeah.

Um, so I thought, right, let me try something along the line of IT. I love computers. I love the whole idea of technology and the innovation and everything. So I moved within 3 months of being in uni doing engineering. I moved into IT. But the problem, it just— nothing changes. It's still exactly the same thing. I'm good at one thing, but it's like you cannot do one thing and omit the rest. You have to do everything else. So, um, yeah, got to final year again. They said exactly the same thing to me, you're going to fail woefully. And I was like, okay, right, this, this is it. I, I can't do it anymore. Literally, I literally called my mom and said, listen, I've tried my best. I just feel like at this point, if I go any further, I'll literally just do something very stupid. It was so bad that I had a scar at the back of my head that they actually had to do like a mini, like a minor surgery to get the tissue that actually developed off the back of stress. I was so stressed because I just couldn't process why everybody else around me can process information and do well in exams, but I struggled no matter how much effort I put into it.

Yeah.

So, um, at this point I remembered when my lecturer said to me, I mean, so my teacher said to me back in college days, and he said something about dyslexic. So I went to the school union, I said, I don't know, like this dyslexic thing, or, you know, I kept, I couldn't even pronounce it. They was like, oh, so how do you spell it? I was like, I don't even know how to spell it. That's how bad it was. 'Cause I don't know who came up with those words, but like dyslexic, dyspraxic, I think it's deliberate. It's like taking the mick off people who are dyslexic. Okay. And so basically, okay, right, this is how we're going to start. We're going to introduce you to these few people and they will carry out some few assessments and everything and they'll find out if, you know, you need support around the area. And fast forward after the diagnosis and everything, this is in my final year of uni, on the brink of about to fail the whole entire, uh, 3 years I've devoted to education, um, or further education should I say. Um, then he came back to me and he said Yes, we can confirm you are dyslexic. And I was like, it was, it was mixed emotion because like, now I know what I'm dealing with, but then again, how come no one actually noticed this all the years of me actually studying?

Yeah.

So literally, I was just filled with emotion. I was crying, I was, I was just bawling out like a baby because at that point I just, I felt relief, but at the same time I felt tension.

Yeah.

But anyways, I got myself back up again and put myself together and said, right, okay, now that we know what's going on, what supports are out there for me? And they said, yeah, sure, we can get you one-to-one tutoring, we can get someone to help you with your structural, your content structure, because apparently one of the drawbacks of being dyslexic is you know how to start but you don't know how to finish. It's like you talk yourself out of your own ideas. And basically having those type of support workers enabled me to actually have people actually help me keep myself back in check. It's almost like, okay, you're going out of line here, you need to stay back in the subject. And that kind of made me just about pass the degree. I was at that point, I was not really, you know, keen to kind of excel or anything like that. I just wanted to pass so I can just get my degree and just walk away and just go start a new life. Um, but yeah, that's where the nightmare started Because, you know, after education, great, I'll live happily ever after, I have my degree, I have a sort of a graduate job. But the reality sets in again because literally the time I actually graduated was exactly at the mid-global financial crisis.

Yeah.

So that was in 2000, that was basically 2012 and going into 2013. That was when the effect of the actual financial crisis was kind of settling in. So there was job losses, there was cutbacks, there was all sorts you can think of. And that's the time I actually just come fresh thinking I can bring something innovative into the industry, and literally it was just rejection upon rejection upon rejection. So it just felt like it got to a point, it just felt like everything I've been told all my life— I'm a failure, I won't amount to anything— things that teachers, horrible things teachers have actually said to me, you know, in those days start to kind of resurface. I started seeing my demons again. And at this point, I, I would— at that point, I didn't actually realize it was called depression.

Yeah.

I just thought I was just being sad. But literally, it took me a whole year. Literally, I was switched off. Literally, I was not motivated to do anything. I was not motivated to want to— sometimes I even go like a whole week without eating, probably just eating just toast or just something, nibbles or something. And that's, you know, because I just lost my motivation entirely. And, um, one year later, I was kind of just, you know, just messing about, just writing content, just trying to identify like what's wrong with me, why can't I, you know, get myself together. And I started writing a book, but at that time I was like, what does a dyslexic person know about writing a book? Like, what can I even write? I'll probably end up writing things that don't make any sense. And I kept writing and kept writing, and I ended up with so much content. I just had like, literally, I still do it till today. Literally, I don't know if you can probably see it, those are little notes. That's how I write. So I literally got literally thousands of those lying around in the room. It means a lot to me, but doesn't mean anything to anybody.

Yeah.

But people actually pick it up sometimes, like, I like that quote, why don't you share it on social media? I'm like, hmm, okay. I mean, it doesn't mean anything to me, but if you think it's good, sure. So from there anyway, I put the book together. At the time I didn't call it a book, I just called it content. And I didn't know what to do with it because all I just want right now is just someone to give me a graduate job and I'll be happy ever after. But the nightmare just continued and continued. After 1,000 jobs, literally I had a notepad that I used for ticking out every job I actually applied for. And when I got to the 1,000th one, he actually didn't come into the interview, just told me over the phone, sorry, unfortunately you don't make it, I said, thank you very much for giving me the best decision I need in my life. At that point, I knew I wasn't designed to be employed. I'm designed to innovate.

Mm-hmm.

And I basically just took myself back and went through my book and tried to identify what are the key strengths I have and what are my weaknesses. And I think it's very important because we often don't actually look at these areas of We always tend to kind of try to concentrate on our weaknesses and forget completely about our strengths. So verbally, I can talk my way out of anything, but when it comes to like literally like writing it down, oh, that's where you catch me. Literally, that's me, I'm off. Literally, my words don't make no sense. You can, you know, you can tell the if is missing. You can tell it just— most people read my text and be like, what? Because a lot of things are just missing text and everything. So I started looking at things where I'm actually good at. So, okay, right, public speaking could actually be a thing, right? What can I also do that I actually learned that is in line with that context? Like, I can solve problems. I'm good with like finding patterns and things. So when things are going wrong, I can see what you're doing repeatedly that's causing a problem. And I love technology. So I thought, why don't I actually make myself prominent in this environment? So I started joining tech communities, I started joining tech hubs, I started joining communities of content writers. I came on LinkedIn about 6 years ago thinking, right, let me just see what I can do to, you know, I was looking at my catalog of all the nonsense I've been— well, I call it nonsense because it didn't make any sense to me. I was just using it to express myself, to express my emotions and everything. And yes, I started posting content and Happily ever after. I guess I found the real me, I guess. And it's just, you know, it's just— that was my real moment of saying, you know what, I'm dyslexic, I'll own it, and I'll be proud of it.

Yeah.

And I just hope obviously I could be like a, a signpost for any other person who's actually dyslexic, or even on any, you know, neurodiverse, um, spectrum of anything, that it's not all about what you're not good at. It's about finding out who you truly are. If you know what you're truly good at, nothing else matters.

Yeah.

Nothing else matters. Just surround yourself with the right people who can complement you on all your weaknesses, and you'll be literally shooting for the stars. So when I actually got the email saying, oh, um, you're nominated for the 50 top most prominent people in tech in Black tech by Tech Nation. I was like, Tech Nation? That's a big deal, you know. And 50 people, I'm like, you know how many people are in the UK in that same space? For me to actually feel like, you know, I was so privileged. And from that as well, different other articles kept, you know, basically flourishing off the back of that. And then someone approached me again saying, we would like to feature you in Forbes magazine, basically for neurodiversity. I was like, this is something that people mocked me for all my life. This is something that people downgraded me for all my life, and now I'm actually now standing up as a patron, you know, to, to, to, um, to champion that being dyslexic, yes, might be a weakness, but it's not the end of it. It's literally, it's just a different way of looking at the world. And I was so thrilled. I was, uh, I cannot express, literally, that was just the biggest joy of my life, um, you know, in my career. And I've only just started, you know, I've not even scratched the surface of where I want to be. Um, you know, I've gone on to actually form organizations. I've gone on to form non-for-profit organizations who have raised hundreds of thousands of pounds to support local people who are actually in disadvantaged communities, to actually help them reach their full potential. So when I made that pledge saying I want to help 100,000 people reach their full potential, I literally meant it, because that's where kind of the goals I had on my wall was not about a fancy pad and a Lamborghini. Don't get me wrong, if I had one, I'll be smiling really hard at it. But that was just it for me. It's just helping people who just don't feel able to feel empowered and know that obviously they're capable of anything they actually set their mind on, as long as it's what they want, not what the world wants, not what their mom wants, not what their dad wants, not what the community wants, but what they truly want. They can reach their full potential. And yeah, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it so far.

Lacey, you were going to say something.

There's so much here. First of all, that's a fantastic story, so thank you for sharing all that. You've said so many really great things. One of the things that you said about the patterns, and we do tend to see that dyslexic people have these characteristics strengths, let's just call them that. And when you mentioned that you can see patterns, it's really very frustrating to me that the school system still can't see the patterns.

Yeah.

With these types of learners, that you— because you're not the only dyslexic person that that school ever had. I'm sure you know that.

Absolutely.

It's very common, and you see like the characteristic strengths and the characteristic weaknesses. And it's frustrating that the school to this day still doesn't see the pattern of that. So I feel like now we're starting to get a little bit more voice to the neurodiverse folks that don't fit in that traditional school setting. And you're like the perfect person to, to help with all of this, just in telling your story. There's so many great things. I'm just writing stuff down like left and right here. But that was the one thing that really kind of stuck out to me, that pattern.

Alex, when you did the exam and did really well in the mathematics, did you read it yourself, or how did you get on with that?

So basically, I went off the idea of making myself best friends with the best people in the class, right? So the smartest of them all, at least, you know, I was— I told them, I said, listen, I will, you know, I will help you with anything you need, any of your chores. I would, you know, I'll clean your dad's car. I would do whatever it is that actually keeps you off their back. And obviously, if you can just help me do one thing and one thing only, teach me how to do this. And they were showing me their style of it, you know, some of which I picked up, some of which I just thought, yeah, that's too clever for me, I can't do that, you know. And I stuck to my strengths, and it was just that repetitive training of my— it's like just making my mind just understand, see the patterns, see the problem solving, see the routine, see the— familiarize myself with it. It's pretty much similar with dyslexic as well, because if you're not familiar with a word, you don't know how to pronounce it sometimes. So it's like, it's just that consistent reassuring myself that I know what I'm doing and building my confidence off the back of that. And It only took me one week actually, uh, to study for the exam, and some people actually studied for it for the whole year.

Yeah, wow.

But I was that determined. Yeah, I was that determined. And I've had moments like that where sometimes in the class they ask a question and everybody else in the class seemed quiet, and I'm like, is it just me? I know the answer to this, but I feel so dumb. Yeah, that I feel like if I open my mouth, everyone will just laugh at me. And then when I open my mouth, sometimes everyone goes— it's like, did he just say something that's actually correct for once? Um, so yeah, it's just moments like that, you know. Um, yeah.

Well, that's a shame that you had to feel like that. Obviously, that— I think part of the biggest issue is still not people— other people not understanding what dyslexia is, um, where those patterns of strengths and weaknesses are, because now you're surrounded by teachers and peers that don't understand it, so that when that, that brilliance comes through, they're surprised. Like, yeah, there should be no surprise to this, and that still bothers me that we don't understand that. When, when you were diagnosed as dyslexic, did they sit you down and explain what that means?

To be honest with you, um, no. Uh, I just saw like a time, they say 20 or 30 page report basically saying these are my strengths, these are my weaknesses, this is dyslexic, this is— I'm dyslexic and this is the support I actually— it's almost like it's a report giving a support package.

Right.

It's not really kind of diving into exactly what dyslexia was. And, um, I went through some few series of like, you know, block building blocks. So I had to like arrange some shapes and there's a bit of puzzles here and there. And obviously I was timed to do it. I was tested on things like my reading speed, I was tested on things like my typing speed, and oh, it's a series of assessments that I had to go through, rigorous assessments I would actually say, that I had to go through, and obviously in the end, that's what I had.

Yeah.

But only after I actually heard about it, that's when I started looking more into it, but then that's when I started finding out other neighboring neurodiversities were like, you know, dyspraxia, dyslexia, you know, ADHD, autism, you know, and the rest, which is just like a whole big family. And I was like, wow, so people like this actually work among us. And yeah, society called them, you know, incompetent, you know. Yeah. Square peg in a round hole, you know, things like that. And it's just, it hurts me because I feel like these are people who are actually like untapped talent that are just literally condemned by society just because of their, um, I wouldn't even call it disability, it's just their view to life, if that makes sense. It just doesn't fit into the natural, you know, society's standards of, you know, capable people, if that makes sense. Right.

And how do we get people to have the self-esteem, understanding how their minds, how great their minds are? How do we get that to these kids early on? And again, it comes back to everybody has to understand what this this is, or you're going to be surrounded by people that misunderstand you. And, you know, you had to feel stupid, and your story is not unique in that area. What I think is terrific is that you came out of this with a really positive outlook, a growth mindset, and a lot of people unfortunately don't.

Yes.

They just don't get to that point. And I think you seem to have a pretty decent Well, you had that competition thing going, so that can go either way. That can make you or break you, but you're a fighter, and it really seemed to support you. But not a lot of people get support.

Yeah, and absolutely true. And something else I wanted to actually add to that as well is the fact that my family system was actually very supportive. Yes, because when they found out I was actually dyslexic, it was not known to the family at all. They've never heard of it. But when I started to actually show them exactly, you know, how it affects me in different ways, I'm like, oh, why didn't you tell me that before? I was like, duh, I've been telling you that my whole entire life that I hate school, but you were not listening. And it was just that kind of, um, but not everybody actually gets the opportunity because some people are actually introverts by default as well. So that basically means they actually are not confident in actually expressing themselves. And if you actually have that layer of you know, that and, you know, your ethnicity, your background, your, you know, sexuality and all those type of things.

Yes.

It just, it just gets, you know, deeper and deeper. And truly, yes, you are right, I am a fighter. I'm from a family of people actually who are very, very, um, very, very ambitious in life, if that makes sense. And it kind of rubs off me as well because I'm inspired by what they do, but, and I'm not prepared to let anything like, you know, my, you know, my learning differences or anything like that to hold me back. And yeah, that's basically been my primary motivator really. Something else I'm also trying to do is obviously try to put myself as a knuckle for people who obviously might be going through exactly the same thing but might not be as privileged as I am to actually have the right support. Make sure obviously you can come to me if you need help, if you need pointers, I can try to refer you to organizations that I know of within your geographic location or whichever that can actually help you. And something I've also found as well, in the UK there's more, far more support for people with learning differences than it is in any other part of the world.

Yes.

And that's something as well which is also a shock to me because I'm like, so what if I was actually in a completely different demography or a completely different country? Would that basically mean I'll probably be far behind where I should actually be today? So it's those kind of things, it's a big puzzle. I feel we still have a long way to go in terms of like global effect on our community. So it's a, it's, it's a big, big problem that I think the government actually needs to start doing more as well. And yeah, anyways, don't get me started because I'll probably start— I mean, I start with everybody accountable.

Yeah, in America, there's still— America still have this fight about even trying to identify kids as dyslexic. I mean, that's a giant problem. You ask any of the parents out there in these support groups, and it's a nightmare. So we need to be able to identify them, mostly to identify their strengths and to keep their sense of self-worth, you know, intact.

Yeah.

But also, again, like the school personnel, for the most part, not everybody, they don't get it. They don't see the pattern. They don't see that these kids, that kid after kid after kid that's struggling in these areas are mostly dealing with this wonderful brain talent that's being, you know, destroyed basically. What did you say, Lois?

It's stopped. Growth is stopped because we don't teach them. And, you know, the negative feelings that you have for years and years and years— I'm amazed that you're so positive and doing so well. You know, you're incredible to me. We've got noise. We've got lawnmowers back But that's all right. So, you know, and the other challenge we have in the States is that dyslexic is often put to one race, and then we just put the others in special education rather than, you know, how are we dealing with, with, uh, with all of these people?

Are we going to—

Definitely. So something I've also noticed as well, uh, sorry, there was a pause in the signal, so I didn't catch what you said until after, after I stopped. Um, something I've also noticed as well, most kids who are actually, um, labeled as stubborn—

Yes.

Not attentive—

Yes.

They are often the ones who are actually repelling, because those are the people obviously struggling, but they don't actually know how to express themselves. So they're expressing the only way they actually know how to communicate, which is violence. Or being destructive or being stubborn or anything like that. So, um, so it's just the time of the day. People think I'm not working, but they don't realize I'm still working internationally, if that makes sense. Um, so, so it's quite, um, it's quite, it's quite a disgrace that obviously we're still, you know, far behind in terms of like, you know, the support system that's actually out there for people within that community. And you are right as well, the fact obviously They try to say, right, okay, these are the— they try to kind of like filter us out, saying, okay, right, these are the ones that actually be competent, and all the rest can be in special needs school.

Yes.

You know, there's that element of it. There's these different labels, basically. And I always say labels are for bottles. That's the way I see it.

Labels are for bottles.

Labels are for clothing. Is Martina never at work?

There we go. So that's who come away.

Well, you know, to the label though, when my son was labeled finally as dyslexic— now I knew he was dyslexic before I formally labeled him because I thought, as you say, labels are for bottles. I didn't want to label him. In his case, the label actually wound up helping him because the frustration that he was feeling, you know, again, surrounded by people that didn't understand the patterns to this, the people in school, didn't understand why he was struggling, once he had that label, it was a relief for him to know, oh, I'm not dumb. But I think you're right, once you start labeling people and then you put them in these boxes, like, no, people shouldn't be in boxes, you know. We all have something, um, to share in this world. And the fact that we have an education system in America, and I would assume UK is similar, that does things one way, and you're constantly trying to shove the square peg into the round hole, it's alienating a large portion of talent. And that's why we have to, you know, get everybody understanding what this is. And again, I go back to that pattern. It's very frustrating. And you mentioned the pattern of the kids that are not paying attention or they're getting into trouble. And when you go back, and Lois knows, when you go back and you look over their test scores and their reading scores, these are usually the kids that are struggling in those areas, and a lot of dyslexic learners, or you could say dyscalculic learners, also struggle with the arithmetic. Not always, but if they're struggling in these areas, how do they not see the pattern? How do they not see the pattern of this?

I totally agree with you.

Yeah, sorry, sorry, Lois, sorry, but go on, you're done.

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I've lost my train of thought now.

That's another thing as well. Sorry there, because I tend to interrupt as well because I can remember what I'm saying. I'm like, before I process what they're about to say, I'll probably forget what I'm about to say. So I tend to do that, you're jumping. Well, sorry, that's part of the—

Zoom doesn't help. You can't tell. Yeah, and sometimes it freezes.

Yeah, um, but I, I definitely agree with, you know, what you both said. And even in the professional setting as well, one of the things I've actually found is that most dyslexic people take longer to process information. So as a result, they come across sometimes as antisocial because one of the things I had to find when I was working in like not really my degree— sorry, my degree level work basically was just anything to kind of get the bills going. One thing I noticed was when people are trying to socialize whilst they're at work, you know, like just having the everyday you know, keep the culture of the company going kind of thing. I'm not really interested because I know that when I actually get involved, I can't concentrate. In order to actually get out of that place by 5 o'clock and clock out like everybody else, I have to be willing to sacrifice not socializing so that I can actually get on with my work. But the moment you do that, you get alienated.

Yes.

Immediately, because they feel like you've been antisocial.

social.

Yeah. And it comes back to what you said as well, Lisa, before about like just feeling isolated basically from others because they don't understand the challenges you're having to face. And you know, you also have like, you know, managers saying you're underperforming because you're not really— you're putting in too much time into it, but they don't need you to be there all day. They need to just do something and just move on. Yeah, kind of thing. I, I had a situation as well even at work where I was working on that project for 4 weeks, my colleagues did it in 4 hours, but then it turns out they end up using my process that I developed for 4 weeks as the process for the entire company.

Wow.

That's because I was actually looking at this could be done better because they're wasting time but doing it in a way whereby every time someone does it, it's not, it's not, it's not a process, it's just, they're just winging it. And as a result, there's a miscommunication in everything. So when I came in there, it didn't make any sense to me. And I thought, let me find a way to make this more simple. I call it like simplify things. Yeah. It's my best philosophy. And I simplified the process. It took me 4 weeks. You know, the managers had to go at me so many times saying I'm taking too long to do something my colleagues are doing in 4 hours. And then when they actually saw it and appreciated it, they started using it as the main process. So it just goes to show sometimes it's not about how quick, but some industry obviously understand they need it to be quick. quick and all this stuff. But sometimes it's not about how quick, it's about what difference can you make to simplify the process for other people who are actually also in the communication space with you.

Yeah.

In this day and age where we're tracking everything that you do, that's a problem, isn't it?

Yes.

You know, they want the instant answer.

Yeah.

With no thought, but it ends up being a mess. It doesn't matter, you did it in 4 hours. I mean, I get the world we're coming into. I can't talk about it because it worries me. But what you just said, it takes longer. There's a lot— it's a longer processing speed, and I've certainly lived with that. And by the time you've heard something and thought about it, they've moved on, and I'm still processing it.

Yeah.

I'm still, what is this? And I need more visuals.

Yeah, yeah, that is the one. No visuals, no, it's not factual for me. If I can't see it, I can't believe it. That's the only thing. It's like you have to show me something that's factual, something I can say, right, yeah, that's factual, I'll stick to that. But if you can't actually prove that's actually factual, I would literally— I would struggle to contextualize it. Yeah. Um, it's the word. Yeah, uh, sorry, I have to slow down the word there because otherwise I'll just jump on my own tongue. Um, Yeah, that's one of the drawbacks I found as well. It's like, it's like if you can't see it and visualize it— I can see the end of a problem before it becomes a problem, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

So I, I start getting nervous and start panicking, like, this is gonna go wrong, this is gonna— like, calm down, everything is fine. Then one week later, they're like, oh, everything went wrong. I'm like, that's exactly what I was telling you, but no one would listen. Yeah, you know, and it's just one of those things, it's quite frustrating. But at the same time, yeah, it is what it is.

Yeah, yeah. My husband has that happen to him quite often in his business. But the other thing I was going to ask is, do you find that once you had an explanation for the struggles you had, was that helpful in terms of self-confidence for you?

Yes. I'll probably say it depends, because for example, I've had to basically hide that I'm actually dyslexic in so many cases because they have no knowledge of what dyslexia is. To them, anything that sounds like something alien just basically sounds like trouble. So most of the time, especially even when I was trying to apply for a job, one of the things I was, I was advised was to actually disclose it with my employer.

Yeah.

But the moment They could say, oh, Alex, you know what? You're fantastic, you're great, I like your enthusiasm and everything. But then the moment I mentioned I'm dyslexic in the process, thinking they'll give me like the right aids and everything to, you know, help me be the best at my work, they go, oh, unfortunately, you know, this was a very tough decision, but the management basically decided to go with somebody else.

Yeah.

AKA decided to go with someone that they deem not a disability or a drawback or an anchor to their operation system.

Yeah, which is incredibly frustrating. Do you disclose whether you don't? What level do you need to? I mean, it's, yeah, it's a very interesting problem.

But how about on a personal level? So for example, I know a lot of dyslexic folks that I've talked to say, when they're in a crowd of people, and this goes back to that isolating thing we were talking about earlier. When I'm in a crowd of people, they say, I can— I'm okay one-on-one, but once a lot of people are talking, because it's a language processing— It's slower. They lose the thread of the conversation, and then it looks like they've sort of checked out and they're not paying attention. And so for folks that that happens to, I would imagine that would make you feel bad or anxious realize that you're not keeping up with the conversation. But knowing that you're dyslexic, does it make it easier for you to be in those situations to say, oh, okay, it's not because I'm stupid or not paying attention, I know it's because I have a slower processing of language? Does that help you to understand?

No, it doesn't. And this is the reason why. Like, for example, when I go into conversations with people, the first thing I always try to get right is their name. Yeah, it's the most important thing for me. The last thing I want to do is like, I come on here and I'll go, um, Lassa— oh no, sorry, Lisa. You've literally ruined that conversation straight away because it shows that you're actually not paying attention to the person's identity. So I'm a bit about people. I, um, I pay attention to people's energy kind of thing, and it's very crucial. Like, after dyslexic, you have to very super. I sometimes want to ask you, like, how do you spell that? I might not know your last name, but I know anything that says MC means Mac, right? So McCarthy, right? And if I'm actually not sure, I'll be like, oh, sorry, how do you pronounce that? Don't like that to be offensive, but I like to always make sure I get the name right because your name is very important to me. So how do you spell your last name, please? And they'll pronounce it or they'll spell it out for you, and then you call the name correctly. So things like that is self-awareness because I know I'm dyslexic. I don't have to make it very vocal to them to say I'm dyslexic because they'll be like, then, so what's dyslexia? Or what's dyslexic is the next question they ask. And I'm like, uh, clearly you don't know what I'm talking about, you know. So that kind of ruins the conversation and deviates away from my strengths. But instead, if I started a conversation with, oh, sorry, how do you spell your last name? Just so I can actually make sure I pronounce it correctly. That basically starts the conversation on a good note. And any area where I'm struggling to process what they're trying to say, I'll just use that same delay process, which I'll say, oh, so how do you, you know, so what is, let's say, what is, just find a word, just anything, just to kind of deviate the question. And in that time, I'm actually processing in my head, right? So what's going on? What am I dealing with? What's my next question? You know, and that's my coping mechanism.

That's amazing.

Exactly.

So it's just a coping mechanism, and I think everyone, you know, develops it in different ways depending on what, you know, because dyslexia is quite vast as well. Like, some people actually have dyslexia trouble with literacy, some people actually have it with numeracy, which is quite strange. It's like they mix numbers up. Um, so it's like everyone have to develop over time their own coping mechanism. They have to develop something called masking as well. So basically you pretend to know what they're talking about, but in that time you're trying to process what exactly is going on. And there's all that kind of, you know, characteristics that have actually been found from people who are actually on a spectrum of any kind within the neurodiversity space.

We have a question. Chris says, what advice do you have for teachers with students that have dyslexia?

That's a tough one. Yeah, because there is a, there's a thin line between someone who's actually making effort and someone who actually cannot be bothered. Um, and the reason I said that is because I've come across, you know, I've worked with a lot of young people as well, and I've come across a lot of young people who are disinterested in anything the teacher has to say.

Yeah.

Not because the, the subject is not of interest to them, but because they are having to go through different things going on at home. Maybe they're going through a divorce, I mean, their parents are going through divorce, or they they've just lost a sibling or anything like that, and automatically forces them to actually just be disinterested in what they're doing. So it doesn't necessarily mean if a child has not been diagnosed or anything like that, you cannot tell them or label them as, you know, one or the other.

Yes.

But what I would probably recommend most teachers to actually, uh, at least make the effort to do is don't— the words you say to these young people is very, very important because this word, till today, all the teachers actually said all the most nasty words to me, I remember them by their first name and their last name. And I wish I can actually see them again today and say, listen, you said I was not going to amount to anything in my life. Do you want to see my LinkedIn CV? Because I'm sure obviously you'd be flabbergasted by that, you know. But unfortunately, so the words, you know, especially for dyslexic people, the words are very, very— we take it to heart.

Yes.

And you have to be very careful with how they actually speak to you. project or manifest our lives by saying, you know, there's different ways you can say it. You can give it in a constructive criticism way rather than actually saying, oh, you're, you know, you are this and you're the slow head of the curve and, you know, put you with groups that are up to no good because they feel like it's the only way to kind of stop you from, you know, being the, the, the, the, um, Ah, right, I've lost my train of thought there, but you get what I'm going with this. It's just, yeah, they could be more kinder with their words. Yes, obviously it's a good place to start.

And the words they say last a lifetime.

Absolutely, nail on, absolutely.

My words, what I want teachers to say is when a child struggles with reading, to call them future rocket scientists.

Yes.

You know, to do that shift and then change the teaching. Yeah, that's my goal. Alex, our time is running out.

Have you—

Lisa, is there anything else you want to say?

I just, I love your story, Alex. I really do.

I think it's fantastic.

The work that you do is very important and just awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all that.

Oh, thank you very much for having me.

Yeah. Ah, thank you. Because, you know, we want to include as many people as possible across cultures to know this is not just one— belongs to one society or one race.