When Learning is Trauma: Ayelet Schwartz, Lois Letchford, & Lisa McCarty

Welcome to an early morning of When Learning Is Trauma. Lisa worked 18 hours yesterday. I did—

Not that many, 16 and a half. I'm good to go.

I did a 2-hour bike ride. And what did you do yesterday? Yell it.

Yesterday we spent about 7 hours at my girl's dance recital.

So we all had Big days yesterday.

Yeah.

Oh, fantastic. So welcome, welcome to Learning Is Trauma. And this morning we're welcoming Ayelet, who is Leah's mother. Leah was on earlier this, um, in this season, and she's the mother of Leah who fought for the, for the right to her daughter to read. Ayelet took classes in Gawton-Gillingham at the academy to help Leah, and she thought homeschooling might be an option. However, as time went on, she found a private school for dyslexic children. And that's where Leah went. And as Leah and Lisa and I have been chatting, Ayelet has a history of dyslexia in the family.

Welcome!

Thank you. And we're going to start differently. We want to hear about your name first up.

So my name, Ayelet, means a fawn, a baby deer in Hebrew. My parents, uh, I guess they liked the name, and I had big brown eyes when I was born, just like a fawn. So that's what they went with. They were hoping I'd be a sprint runner, but I wasn't.

And your name has been a concern or a challenge all your life?

Yes.

No one could ever say it until one day. I guess I realized it sounds. It's just like, I yell it. Like, I yell it. Like you're going to scream something. So I would tell people, it's just like, I yell it. I yell it. I'm going to scream it. I yell it. If you could say that, then you could say my name.

And that helps?

It helps.

That helps. That's wonderful. Now, you were just telling us about your family history. Can you tell us a bit about that? Sure.

So, it wasn't until Leah was diagnosed with dyslexia at the age of 9 that my mom piped up and said that I am also. Her mom is dyslexic, and we think that my father's mom is as well. She struggled in school, and I think she left school at a young age because She couldn't read and she just worked her entire life. Brilliant at languages. She spoke quite a number of languages but couldn't really read or write.

That's astonishing.

It is.

Wow.

And, you know, that's the ear has got it and the brain can do it, but it's that from paper to print and that interpretation, isn't it? That's the challenge.

Wow.

Well, what were your struggles in school?

So, um, it was basically— maybe back then I heard that it was comprehension.

Yeah.

But thinking back, I realized that it was processing. I had a difficult time processing whatever information I was given. But I was always super shy and super quiet. Didn't want to talk. Teachers would call on me, I think I would just sit there. I wouldn't always answer. Um, reading out loud was torture. Um, I would often leave the room. There were times where I would go to the nurse. My mom picked me up from school.

Oh, no.

A lot in elementary school. I don't remember about middle school, but I avoided, I definitely avoided—

Reading.

Any kind of reading, writing, any kind of like public speaking was a challenge. I would trip up over my words, I would forget words. I wasn't, I guess, quick or witty. I couldn't deal with it with humor. I think I was mortified. I would rather get a failing grade than present something to the class or read something.

Wow. Yeah. So it was really— school was really quite traumatic even for you?

Um, I think so. I think in many ways, yes. I'd never really thought about it, but I was super happy to graduate and just be done with it. But I guess it was— looking back, it was traumatizing. Yeah.

How did you get on in high school then?

So I was in a program called College Now, which was just a lovely name for the idiots who couldn't really pass anything. Sorry for the term, you know, I'm being a little facetious, but yeah, you know, it was, it was designed for students who maybe could graduate with some sort of Something. Classes were just a little more slower paced.

Can I ask a question? I, I do want to go back to the term idiot. Now, it's interesting to me because I know you're just being sarcastic about it, but did you spend most of your time in school and maybe even as an adult thinking that?

Yes.

And I see, I have a real big problem with what the school system does to these types of learners that you have to feel like that.

Yes.

And I think, yeah.

I do too, which is why I fought so hard for Leah, because it would be over my dead body that she would have a similar experience to me. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, there was no way I could allow for her to go to school Feeling the way I did.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, you're here, you are as an adult, a confident adult, and yet you can still— those, those names still stick.

They do. They do. I have some interesting stories about, about this type of thing, because it does carry over. I remember, okay, so I went to college where you have more liberty, I guess, to take notes however you want. And, you know, I did much better in college. I went on to get my master's in education and I became a teacher. And I never had any problems with, with teaching. After I had my 3 kids, though, I went— I took some time off, some childcare leave. I went back to work, and pretty quickly I was observed by the powers that be. And I remember there were about 6 admins that came in to observe, which was fine. And I was in the middle of a math lesson, we were doing long division, and I realized pretty quickly that I was nervous.

Yeah.

Which can make mistakes.

Yes.

more prevalent, I guess.

Yeah.

And, you know, told myself, take a deep breath, but I made a dyslexic mistake. Completely, totally a dyslexic mistake, right? I must have— I don't remember the mistake right now, but I must have reversed a number, right? I must have done like a 9 instead of a 6, but my answer was totally wrong, right? Now, I'm thinking, oh my God, this is horrible. I'm so embarrassed. And all those feelings came back, like, I'm such an idiot. How can I do this? Like, what is wrong with me? So I quickly said, okay, all right, this is what you're good at, right? And I said to my class, guys, I don't know why you're all sitting here taking my word for this, right? Why are you just assuming the answer is right? Look at it. If I'm dividing something, how can my answer be larger than the 2 numbers that are right here? Yeah, that means I made a mistake somewhere. I gotta go back and check it. I gotta redo my problem, right?

Yeah.

So I thought it was pretty— I don't know about genius, but I thought it was a quick, like, okay, right now we all make mistakes. So I thought I set up like a pretty good example of Okay, I made a mistake, right? But now logically, what are the next steps? If this doesn't make sense, I made a mistake. I have to go back and redo the problem. I thought it was like a real-world kind of thing, and I thought I handled it really well. Then, you know, figured it out, got the problem. All right, awesome. Then came the post-observation review. Where, um, I was told things like, you cannot make mistakes like that, you're confusing the children, um, when you make mistakes like that, you shouldn't be making mistakes when you're teaching like that. So I'm sitting there and I'm listening and I'm trying to process what I'm hearing because I disagree, right? We're all human, mistakes happen no matter what job you do. Now granted, if you're a surgeon and you make a mistake, that's even worse. But I'm not a surgeon, I'm a teacher. And I thought I did a really good job kind of showing not just how to work through a problem, but saying, does my answer make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah. No, it doesn't.

Yeah.

Right? So there's a mistake and I had to backtrack and I, I showed them. I thought it was a really good way to handle it, but they didn't think so. And from then on, they were in my room often.

Yeah.

Like, like weekly, almost daily at some point.

Yeah.

And I ended up quitting because they were doing to me—

Yes.

What Leah's school was doing to her.

Yeah.

It was like the Twilight Zone. So I quit. And that's when I did the The whole OG stuff. Yeah, I ended up pulling Leah out of school.

That's horrendous, because I agree with you. I think that would be a perfect lesson. That would be a perfect lesson, because nowhere else in life are we just going to get the right answer and be done with it. You know, it's, it's about learning and thinking, and a lot of these kids are great at thinking outside the box. And if they challenge a teacher, oftentimes they get in trouble for their extraordinary way of thinking, but it doesn't fit in that, you know, structured, there's only one right answer atmosphere.

Right, right. It even became a thing in my classroom. We had a little, like a little chalkboard type of little thing on the side, and we kept track of how many times, the students caught a mistake.

Yes.

You know, either themselves, or if I made one. You know, my thing was, don't just take my word for it.

Yeah.

Really question what we're doing. I wanted the questions. Wait a minute, is that right?

Yeah.

Why? Why do I think that's wrong?

Yeah. But most teachers don't want that challenging. I mean, I don't— I'm— I can't— I'm not a teacher, but this is just what I've heard. The students that challenge the teacher are often the ones that get a little bit in trouble. But this is what our world needs, this type of challenging thinking. So, wow, that's a story.

Well, it's also— there's power in getting it wrong, and that's where your learning happens.

Right. I always tell my students, Always. If you're making mistakes, you're learning. If you're not making mistakes, you're not learning.

That's right.

And yeah, I want you to make mistakes.

Yeah, and it's tapping that curiosity zone. I'm trying to think of the word, you know, that when there's a mistake, that's when the deep thinking happens. But it's interesting that the powers that be only want normality at all levels by the sound of it. So yeah, I, you know, and even that would be traumatic.

And it really was because there's a lack of acceptance, number one, as a human.

Yeah.

You know, you can't do it this way. That's wrong.

Yeah.

So it really made me feel that word again. It really made me feel like an idiot. You know, like, wait a second. And then I had to constantly kind of explain myself or try to prove why what I was doing was okay.

Yeah.

But they wanted a particular script.

Yep.

You know, and everything was differentiation, differentiation, differentiation. We had to differentiate for the students, we had to differentiate the lessons, but I couldn't differentiate for me, like not even a little bit.

Yeah.

And I wasn't doing anything wrong.

wrong.

I was just trying to really get the kids to think, yeah, you know, and as a person who makes mistakes all the time, right here, you know, it's something, you know.

Here too.

You have to own it, you know, but I think that's, um, it's a good thing, you know, mistakes can be a beautiful thing. There are things that were invented by accident.

Probably everything, you know. Wow.

There's lessons there, aren't there, for people? I make mistakes all the time, you know, and I find it frustrating at times.

Of course.

Yeah. Well, my older son, who is not dyslexic, but he had caught a mistake that a teacher made in the classroom, and he spoke up, and then he got, you know, in trouble a little bit for challenging the teacher who was wrong.

Right.

And that's disappointing that this is part of the problem where you have to fit this one-size-fits-all mold in the classroom, but that's not actually, in my estimation, learning.

No.

That's regurgitation.

Yeah, right.

You know, even Even science classes, it used to bother me when I was in college that we were doing experiments. They weren't experiments, they were recipes.

Yeah.

Somebody else had already done the experiment. All we were doing was a recipe to get the right answer. And in one particular class, something was wrong on the paper that the teacher had, the professor had handed us. And so we all went through this experiment and got the wrong, you know, thing. But that actually was an experiment because that showed that, you know, what were we doing? We weren't just trying to— like, we were following a recipe.

Right.

That's not experimenting. That's just following a recipe. And this professor was mad when the kids were going, well, this is ridiculous. There's a mistake on here. And he's like, guys, this is an actual experiment. Right.

Yeah.

This is what happens.

Yeah. So we're not really teaching— not everybody. There's Wonderful programs out there, wonderful teachers, but in general, the one-size-fits-all model is a problem.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

I didn't expect this conversation to go in this direction, but it's fantastic, you know, and it tells us the problems that we face long-term. You know, that even though we survive school, And we get through, there's no guarantee that we're going to find work that fits us.

Right.

How has your— how's your work gone since then for you?

So I quit my job in February.

This year?

Yes, I left mid-year. My family needed me. So, so I left, um, on good terms.

Yes.

Every— yeah, everything's, you know, great. But, uh, my youngest was really struggling, so I had to make the decision, um, to leave. Um, it was tough though because I really feel like I know so much and I can do so much. Um, That I felt bad that I had to choose between my own children and my school children.

But yeah. It's a choice. It's a choice we have to make.

Yeah, so family first right now.

Yeah, you know, it often worries me what would have happened for Nicholas if I were not a stay-at-home mum.

Right. Yeah.

The time it takes to think of all those things is not valued.

No, it's not at all. You know, when I first left my first teaching position, not because of Leah, but because I wanted her to have a different experience in school than I did, and it was heading in that direction. Yeah, it was already starting to not be her happy, bubbly social self. Yeah, I don't want to go to dance anymore. Do I have to go to school. It's not doing anything. I just sit there. I'm so stupid. You know, like your typical self-talk, I guess. And I said, no, no, no, no, no, this can't, this can't be. Then, you know, I did the training. We got her a lawyer. You know, we sued the DOE. It took 5 years of suing to eventually get her school on her IEP. Um, you know, and then when all was settled, I, I did go back to work. First I worked in a little private school part-time, then, um, a dyslexia charter school on Staten Island. Um, and I had to leave again because I wanted to be there for my kids.

Yeah.

I just feel like, yeah, yeah, the balance isn't Always there for work life.

Yes.

You know, and if you have a kid with, with a, with a specific need, it's impossible.

Yes, I, I totally agree with you. Totally agree. And I feel for, particularly for mothers, because we are the ones that bear the brunt of it.

We, we are. And then I don't know if this is okay to bring up or if it's going to trigger people, but this is where trauma comes in, I think. I feel a tremendous amount of guilt because, like, I beat my kids. Yeah.

You know, I thought you were gonna say, I feel guilt because I didn't understand what the problem is with my son who we interviewed. A couple weeks ago. With my younger son, we found the problem, and it actually wasn't me that found the problem, it was my mom. And my mom is dyslexic. I'm not, but my mom is.

Right.

So I look at it as, at least she knew what the problem was.

Right.

And here's the thing, I don't so much look at it as a problem anymore, I look at it as a genetic variation in brain wiring, and what are you so fantastically good at? And you've already proved it, you're good at very, like, thinking. And my mom's an artist, I'm not an artist, but she is, and that's her passion, that's her talent, that's what she's good at. And so for her to— I don't think she gave it to him.

Right.

I just see it as a, again, a genetic variation in brain wiring that's a very necessary part of our society. The problem is when you put that into our school system the way it stands now, it isolates people.

Yes.

And it doesn't find their strengths. And Lois and I have talked about finding the child's strengths in order to teach them things, because the matter isn't that they can't learn.

Yes.

Right.

It's in the way it's being presented to certain learners.

Yes.

So I've stopped saying dyslexic. I say a dyslexic learner.

Yes. Good on you. I love it.

I think I froze. You know, just to differentiate, that different way of thinking and learning and producing, you know, dyslexic learners have so much to offer to the world, but if they're feeling like idiots, that's why I went to that word, because I hate that people feel like that coming through this system, and this is why we do this work.

Yeah. Right.

We've got a question from Chris Chris was on last week. What do you think is the most important thing that the education needs— system needs to fix?

Hmm, okay, it needs to fix so much. I think Perhaps OG should be introduced to children in preschool, kindergarten, because it works for everybody. Not like Balanced Literacy, Whole Language, which works for— I don't know the exact percentage, but not everybody. It works for, let's say, 70%.

No, much less than that.

Much less than that? Yeah, I don't know. I don't have any formal data, but I know it doesn't work for everybody.

Yeah.

You know, and thinking back to my classroom experience, if I knew OG before I knew it, how many more students could I have helped? About 10 kids in a class of 32 kids were non-readers at all, way behind. I taught 5th grade, maybe they were on a 1st or 2nd grade level. It's unacceptable. So I think OG-based programs like serious phonics, sentence structure, grammar— we need to go back to grammar and vocabulary, and not just vocabulary from texts, but think Latin, think Greek, the roots of words. It's fascinating. It's all so fascinating, and kids eat it up. How— I mean, it can only be a good thing.

Yeah.

But I think that's the first thing.

Yeah.

That needs to be addressed, because you're really addressing everybody's needs needs at that point. And if you have a child who's dyslexic, then their needs are being met.

Yes.

And the dyslexic signs or symptoms as they get older, yeah, aren't really there. Yeah, in terms of academics, because you've addressed those foundation— that's those foundational skills that are missing. Yeah. Yeah.

Everything I do with my struggling readers or my children who struggle is foundational.

Yeah.

It's literally foundational. And with my work, there's a huge overlap between speech therapy and what I do. You know, when you say grammar, that, that's what it is. That's what we're giving them, grammar.

Right.

You know, the difference between was and were, the difference between -ed like walk and walk.

Right.

You just have to do it at a different level. I mean, yeah, take a deep breath. Tell us, Lisa, what you said. They're not dyslexic, they're dyslexic learners. I thought was brilliant because we put on them the label specific learning disability, which suggests Mm-hmm.

Yeah, we hate that term in our house. When Leah first heard it, she was like, wait, what? So there's something wrong with me? So I have a disability? She prefers words like, like, I'm— I think differently.

Yes.

I'm a, uh, what did she say? A diffability.

Yeah, I like it.

But she doesn't like specific learning disability. She's like, okay, whatever.

Yeah.

Well, I understand why they still use that term because unfortunately they have to. That's the only way you get support, which is outrageous. But if you go back to the DSM, and there's a lot of stuff wrong with that book, um, obviously, but that's all we have.

Yeah.

So if you're a student caught in this, um, one-size-fits-all educational system, that's your only hope. And also people that then get out of the educational system into the workforce, until this is like more widely understood as a difference, Mm-hmm. Oh, then people could get the support and understanding, but that's what makes it a disability when you're not getting support and understanding.

Right.

You know, like, you need the support and you need the understanding, but to keep calling people disabled is— I don't know, I guess for some people it helps them, but I feel that it's not quite right. It's not quite—

Yeah, I agree. And I know Leah does too. She talks about it often.

You know, but our children, they're children. They're 5 and 6 and 7. They're under 10. And we're putting these labels on them. That's what really concerns me. And then using that label to get services. It's, it's really quite a double-edged sword.

It is. I remember years ago when Leah was little. Now, I didn't know, I didn't know that she was dyslexic or anything like that. I knew something, but I didn't know what, right? And I thought, I mean, I Of course, all my 3 kids are brilliant. But there was a little something that was different, not good or bad, just different. And I could see it in the way that she maybe processed things, or the things that she noticed were unusual to me. Again, not good or bad. It was just different. Like, why would a kid notice that?

Like, that was—

Karen.

Karen was that too.

Almost like intuitive. I don't know. But I totally forgot what I was gonna say, but, um—

Good or bad?

So growing up, we knew something, and to have it be like beaten down at school was hurtful to her.

Yeah.

You know, she was— you could see the change in her. You know, she wanted to go to school, she wanted to learn, but school was just not for her from the start.

Yeah.

And you could see it. And I looked into Montessori programs, Montessori schools for her, um, but I didn't know, like, would it really work for her? Would it not work for her?

I—

but looking back, I wish I had done it. Um, And I'm curious to know if a Montessori setting would be better for thinkers like ours, you know, like the dyslexic thinker problem solvers, because it maybe it gives them a little more opportunity to kind of explore and discover things on their own. Leah as a child hated to be told what to do. I'll do it my way.

Yeah, yeah.

Don't tell me how to do it. I'm gonna do it my way.

You know, the other challenge that this brings up, like a Montessori school does not come cheaply.

No, it doesn't.

And the cost— and I saw a Facebook post this week of a parent saying, is it worth spending $50,000 a year on a child's Education in elementary school. And you think, I don't know what parents on salaries can afford that.

Right, right. That was the other issue. And for us to try to, I don't know what the right word here is, remedy dyslexia. Not that I think dyslexia should be remedied, but it's more like remedy for school purposes before the dyslexia school, if that makes sense.

Yep.

Um, her dyslexia school was $50,000 a year, and the neuropsych evaluations were $5,000 out of pocket. Insurance doesn't, um, cover. We took out loans like you have no idea because I quit my job, remember? Like, I quit my job to help my kid. And once you resign from the DOE, you can't go back. So I was pretty screwed. But we took out loans, we paid her tuition, we sued the DOE, we won, thankfully, got the money, paid off the loan. The following year was the same thing. So for 5 years, that's what The cost on your health? It's the anxiety.

Yes. Yes.

Insane.

Yeah.

Because what if we didn't win?

Yeah.

Didn't have money to pay it back. That loan, we would have found a way. Don't get me wrong. We would have, you know, over time figured it out and, you know, done what we had to do. But it was, it It's crazy. It's completely insane. And the argument for the— for the— before you were saying the DSM. What are we up to now? I don't even know what we're up to now.

5.

With that 5, right? It recognizes SLD, but not dyslexia. So the school says, we need a diagnosis, a medical diagnosis. We went and got a medical diagnosis.

What was the medical Well, it is in the DSM, and I think from the DSM-IV to V, I think they tried to simplify it by just putting everything— because you had dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, and everybody's like, we don't know which one it is. Well, they're all very related, so let's just call it this. But the school used that as, I would say, an excuse to say, oh, we don't have to recognize that.

100%. I remember going to the IEP meetings and they would like What's her diagnosis? What should we put at the top of the page? I said, dyslexia. We can't do that. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. I have the letter here from newyorkstate.gov. Like, I printed it out for you right here. And they were like, well, let's just put down SLD. Maybe we should put down visual impairment because she's also visually impaired. But they ended up with SLD on there. So I said, I want you to put in the parent notes that she has a diagnosis of dyslexia. Dyscalculia and dysgraphia. So we don't need to do that. And I said, yes, you do. Where you asked me parent concerns, that is a parent concern. Please write it down. Always. I want it somewhere on there. I don't know who looks at it. And it was probably really stupid.

But I think I want it to be like, you know, I have to just quickly tell you this, because Because our school district, we had a school psychologist who evaluated my son in the 8th grade, and before he evaluated him, I grilled him on what dyslexia, like I wanted to know, did he know what dyslexia was? And I was satisfied that he knew what it was. And so when we first started the conversation, I said, hi, my name is so-and-so and my son is dyslexic. And the school psychologist cut me off and said, we don't use that term. And I said, well, yes we do, because I too was holding the form from the State Board of Education that says you should. But then the psychologist said this, he said, well, I myself don't have a problem with the term, which was telling because somebody did have a problem with the term.

Yep.

And we went on to talk about it and, um, I grilled him on exactly how was he going to test this because I wanted to make sure that there were no games being played. And sure enough, he, the school psychologist, put dyslexia on my son's paper. But, and I have a lot of stories about this because the same fellow was able to shove it under the rug with other students that my son is friends with, who I have read their, their school evaluations, and they're very similar to Kieran. So other kids were getting auditory processing disorder, intellectual disability, and ADHD. Similar profiles to Kieran. to my sons, and first of all, a school psychologist can't be making the determination of auditory processing disorder. He's not a, you know, an audiologist.

Right.

He doesn't have audiology equipment, but he could do that because it was appeasing the school. So we've uncovered a lot of nonsense that I don't think people— well, your story is not unique, my story is not unique, but to other parents that don't know what's going on, they don't understand that this is what's happening.

Yes.

And you're, you know, when you come with your child, you've got no prior experience unless it's like you and me. Oh, you're an idiot. You just failed in school. It's your problem. As opposed to, now how are we going to teach these children and have them cope in the 21st century?

And it becomes a full-time job for the mom. I spent, you know, days on end doing this from the time I got up to the time I went to bed and fought. But I—

it was—

it's exhausting.

It's exhausting.

It is exhausting.

What about those parents that can't do that?

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

That's right.

Right.

Well, that's why we sued them, because they just— they didn't want to— the school district didn't want to help the other kids.

Right.

And I said, this is not cool. So we sued them.

Wow. Yeah, it's such an interesting thing. I know I had, uh, some friends who totally disagreed with what I was doing, and they stopped talking to me. Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Oh, she'll be fine.

And people wouldn't talk to me because we sued and were pretty vocal about it. Yeah, because, you know, Leah wrote the book, and then, you know, people wanted interviews, and, you know, I wanted to do what I could to empower her and make her feel confident And I wanted to give her the tools to make sure that she could advocate for herself.

Yes.

You know, if need be. I didn't want her to be quiet like me, I guess, and not be able to speak up or speak out. But she kind of took to it like, oh, a fight. I'm in. I'm in.

I don't want her to feel like an idiot like you did. That's That's the point of this. This is why we're fighting like this.

Right. And silence means acceptance. And this is not okay.

Yes. Yes.

Yes. So I did lose a lot of friends who did not support, which is, you know, and it's interesting because you could disagree with me. We could disagree on things and still be friends.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. But yeah, so, you know, that's another part of the trauma, really, Yes. Is that I assume that it's because it all comes down to the dyslexia, right? If I wasn't dyslexic, then this wouldn't be happening. If I wasn't dyslexic, this wouldn't be happening to my kid. If this was— now, again, a little facetiousness there, but it, it, there's some truth to it too. You know, it had, it had to be up to me to really accept everything and stop being so maybe angry, you know, because if I didn't accept it, then what kind of example am I for my daughter? So I had to kind of say, you know what, I don't care. You're not gonna be my friend? Fine.

Yeah.

But deep down, it's really— it was really hurtful.

Yeah.

You know, the comments on Facebook, Facebook, the you're a terrible mother, you know, things like that were really like, okay.

It's isolating being a parent of a child who struggles. It's very isolating.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

Because I don't think people really understand what you're going through. I don't think they're aware of The depth of concern that you have.

It's so true.

You know, and you— I can see, you know, a 6-year-old child not getting it and not getting it and not getting it. And every day is another nail in their coffin. Every day. And then it's— and, you know, and I teach these kids at 16, and you've got to undo all that work to try and teach them, you know. And then It's just, the damage is unimaginable.

And then it follows, which is where I come in. This is what I see every day.

Yes, yes.

So people underestimate the trauma.

Yeah.

Which is why we've named it this.

Yes, yeah.

This is causing to people. Now, there are some dyslexic learners who get support and they do fine, and they might not see what the big deal is.

Right.

But the problem is that we don't have enough understanding and support in these situ— in these environments for these kids.

Yeah.

And we haven't for decades.

Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Well, you look at education. Education in the past, you know, it was separated into normal and special education. And special education was another school altogether. So, and then we bring them together thinking inclusion is really good. But again, we go back to the teacher training. The teacher training, what do they know about inclusion? What do they know about these children across a whole range of issues coming into the classroom? Lisa?

I have to, because I still have a problem with the whole special education label, the whole special education thing. Because these learners are brilliant learners. The problem is that they don't fit in.

Right.

So in my line of work, I talk to adults every day who said, I was in special education, and because of that, that self-esteem has been affected.

Yes. Yes.

And it shouldn't have been. They don't know how smart they are. They don't realize that the skills that they have are brilliant skills. They go back to that, that school school experience and will forever feel like idiots because of that. So the problem is, in my estimation, we have to be able to educate these teachers to see what the signs of this type of thinking are and then do the best that they can to build up that child's skill set with what they are good at.

Yes.

And as you said as well, teach those literacy Skills the right way for them so that everybody can sort of be going along school and nobody's better than anybody else in this, in this situation.

Right.

And we can avoid some of this trauma.

Yes. Yes. Agreed. 100%.

Totally agree. Totally agree. Yeah, this has been a phenomenal conversation. Yell it, I love it!

Thank you. I want you to know this is really the first time I've really ever spoken about me and my experiences like this because it's usually Leah's thing. People want to talk to us, I'm like, talk to my kid, and she's all over it. She'll grab the mic and be like, well, this isn't fair, you know. Yeah, I'm a little more maybe Still dealing with this trauma.

But well, I yell it. I want you today, for the rest of the day, I want you to give yourself a big hug and be able to process through those feelings so that you can come out and, you know, be on the stronger end of what needs to be done, as opposed to letting that drag you down, because it's still in there. I talked to my mom, my dad, when he passed away, he always felt less than, and it was wrong. It was wrong that he had to feel like that. So I want you to hug yourself today and realize you are a wonderful mother, you're a wonderful parent, you're a wonderful person. And just because the educational model didn't fit you, that's, that's its problem, not yours.

Right. Yes, I thank you.

You are absolutely wonderful, you know. And I think we do need to talk more about the damage that's done to us. And the consequences, you know, on our long-term health, you know, which is not recognised. And as Lisa said, I want to give you a huge hug because I just value everything you've said today, you know. And it just opens our eyes, you know. It's you, it's intergenerational then. It's you, it's your child, and then you go through it again with your child. We repeat it by just having children that don't fit normal. And, you know, why is it such a struggle when children don't fit normal to get the help that they need?

Right. And, you know, it's interesting that you say that, and it also touches on something that Lisa said before about Special ed. I got a lot of slack for removing my kid from public school and putting her in a specialized school. She should be included. She should have inclusion. And I said, you do what works for you, and I'll do what works for us.

Yes.

And kind of left it at that.

Yes.

But I've had many arguments with a few people about that. But again, I didn't want my daughter to have the feelings of— and she put this on her, on her Facebook page. What was it? I don't want her to have the feelings of, oh, I'm in the lion group, I'm group number 3, where everybody knows that group number 3 or the lions or the green group are like the bottom readers. I didn't want that. I didn't want that for her at all. It's just, I understand the concept behind it. I just don't agree with it.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, just like the day they were reading a novel as a class, and Leah couldn't read it. And we had just discovered Learning Ally. And the kid was like, oh, I could listen to books. Like, this is amazing. And we downloaded the book, and I told her, listen ahead, read ahead, right? Instead of, you know, reading, you're ear reading, right? You're still getting the same information. And the kid was like— it was like magic.

Yes.

A whole new world was opened up to her, and she sat and listened for days. But she read ahead in the book, went to school, and she was able to participate in the school conversation. And the teacher said something to her about it, like, wow, like, what What a change, Leah. And she was like, yeah, I downloaded the book, my audio, and I listened to it. And they were like, no, you can't do that. Like, like the, oh my God, no, no, no, that's cheating. So she came home really upset. And she was like, Ma, listen, this is what they said. I said, okay. So I always try to support the teachers. And I'm like, yeah, at this point, we're just gonna do whatever works for you. And you're gonna listen. Yeah, it's okay.

Yeah. Yeah. And audio Gaining the input of their peers is critical.

Yes.

You know, particularly if they've got the comprehension.

Right.

You know, ah.

Right. And that's how the school she's in now operates.

Yes.

If it works for you, go ahead and do it.

Yes. Yes.

Whether it's a scribe pen or, you know, any kind of technology, you go ahead and use it. Yeah. Yeah. I pulled her out of the school. She's totally understood and accepted, and that's all we wanted. Yeah.

Oh, incredible. Chris left a statement. He said, that's a great statement, but he said, that's a great statement. I'm not sure which one he's referring to. Thank you, Chris. Thank you very much. Ayala, this is phenomenal conversation, phenomenal thinking, and for parents who are listening, listen, think about it, connect with us because we should not feel so isolated. You know, I was speaking to Nicholas after he got his PhD or his— and he said, you know, I wasn't good at anything in 3rd grade. And that's that deep down feeling, I wasn't good at anything, pops up far too often.

Yes.

You know, so have you got one last word to finish with?

I don't know.

Lisa will always have something to say. We'll come back to you.

Well, I, again, I think I thank you for coming on here. It was a great conversation. I really appreciate you sharing your story. And I'm serious, I want you to be good to yourself today because a lot of things probably came up for you. That maybe you weren't expecting. And, but we thank you for sharing that. I think it's very helpful for a lot of people to hear it and to be able to connect and say, yeah, I felt like that too. And, you know, maybe not be so isolated going forward.

Yeah. Well, it allows us to process. It gives us a place to process. What's gone on that has not been allowed before, I think.

Right.

You know, and as Lisa said, give yourself a huge hug because it's been phenomenal talking to you and hearing your story and hearing the intergenerational story. Multiple generations in your case.

Yeah.

You know, so, well, thank you. Please hit like and hit subscribe. So that our channel can grow and we can continue to get the word out that learning should not be traumatic, that it should be engaging, and we should not be isolating and shoving kids down a path that they don't need to go.

Agreed.

So where can they find you, Ayelet, and Leah?

So for me, I mean, I just have Facebook.

Facebook, yes.

Yeah, my daughter is Dyslexic Renegade, both on Instagram and Facebook. She's 16 now, but I monitor the page with her. We do it together because she's a minor, and I just like to make sure she doesn't post anything maybe not inappropriate, but I just want to make sure she's posting okay.

Yeah, because That digital record stays forever.

Right.

So, and the book that she wrote, you have a link, I think, to that, The Dyslexic Renegade. So we didn't talk about that in this session, session, but she wrote a book about all of this.

Yeah, so her book could be found on Amazon, Barnes Noble. And if you go to AuthorHouse, And type in Dyslexic Renegade, it could be gotten there. It's also on Learning Ally, so if you have a Learning Ally account, you could hear it there read by her.

Oh, great.

Yeah, yeah.

And Jared says, I can't think of anything to ask, so thank you. Thank you for all your— John, thank you for all of your comments. Lisa, where can we find you? You are just such a wonderful host.

Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube on either Monday afternoon or Monday morning early after having half a cup of coffee.

So thank you.

We have got 2 more shows in this series. Next week is my student from Houston and his mother, and the last week I've got to get is Hillary Jacob Hendel And check out her work, particularly Lisa, because she talks about small t's, small traumas. And I'll make sure we get an event right out for her. You can find me on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, and Instagram. My book is Reversed: A Memoir. Buy a copy, read it, write a review. Please write reviews because it makes a difference. And thank you for joining us today. Thank you.