When Learning is Trauma: Callan Jennings, Lois Letchford and Lisa McCarty

Welcome, Callan. Welcome, Lisa. Callan is from New Zealand and he did not learn to read in school. The cost is enormous on his life as it stopped him from entering much of mainstream. We cannot change how children arrive at school with many challenges from poverty, language experiences, and the individuals' variabilities in their brain. Yet what we can and we must change is how we teach, our expectations. And the words of Curt Dudley Marling are the ones that I say continuously and should be embedded in every teacher's mind, and that is, learning and learning problems dwell in activities and cultural practices. and not in the heads of individuals. Welcome, Callan. That's my start.

Thank you, Isaac. I think between the 3 of us, we would have been in trouble.

Callan, would you like to share a little bit about yourself? Tell the audience about your experience.

Well, basically at the age of 7, I'm not sure what class that would be over in the States, but it was—

2nd grade.

I changed schools. No, it would have been a year later actually, but I moved from one school. I was brought up in an area where it was probably 25% European, and I went to the school down there and I quite enjoyed it. I wasn't in a little reading and writing reading class. Then I changed schools, and I remember this is like the defining moment. Um, went to this new school and the teacher was writing words up on the blackboard, and I remember hearing the other kids go, oh, that's for the new kid because he's dumb. And I, um, they weren't really being mean, but they just, you know, I overheard them, overheard them whispering to each other. So probably 8 years old, and, um, I just didn't want to be in the class. It was like that, um, I think it's all this, the Davis thing. I read a little bit of that, that book when they're going tick, tick, and I remember just looking at the clock going tick, tick, tick. And then we had, um, you know, like lunchtime and interval breaks, so I got to go outside and play rugby. Um, And I just— yeah, I got to play rugby as hard as I could, and just no one could tackle me because I had all this anger and all this frustration. Um, I went home and wanted to get a hug from my mum, and basically, um, my mum was really sick and she'd been diagnosed with cancer, and it looked like she was going to die, and I couldn't get a hug from my mum. I was done. Also, at the same time, my 2 older sisters were high achievers, and I basically decided at that moment that I was going to kill myself once my mum died, um, because I didn't feel like I fitted into this world. And yeah, my mum actually beat the cancer, but it was under this thing where if it come back, it wouldn't, you know, she'd probably die from it. And I spent most of my life just surviving, waiting for, um, Mum to die so I could— until I was about 40 years old. And then got involved with drugs. Um, oh, the other defining moment was when I was 14. I was picked for, um, Wellington, that's like my province, to play representative rugby league. I've been a representative rugby player, you know, intermediate age, and a cricket player. And someone handed me a form and I couldn't fill out this form. And everyone was asking me because I'd basically— a lot of people asking because I was one of the only European guys there and everyone presumed that I could write. And they were asking me all of these questions, how do I fill this out, how do I Do that. And I ran away and went to, um, ran away. And the next day, this is at secondary school now, um, I just wanted to be anything but known as the dumb dyslexic kid. So I went and hung out with people that were doing drugs, and I wanted to be a drug addict because, um, Anything was better than being the dumbest leech. You know, when I was playing sports, I would hear people say that quite often. Oh yeah, he's he's he's a good rugby player, good you know at sport, but he um he's pretty dumb. Which what I've come to learn now, not actually dumb, like. The advantages of being dyslexic when you're playing sport— I could, um, you know, I could see what's going on to the left of me, to the right, the whole side of the field. I could tell when someone was hurt. I could tell, um, you know, everything that was going on, and it's almost like in slow motion. No, the iPad is not in your room.

Beside my bed.

No, it's not.

Keep going.

That's all right, we'll do the best we can. And, and basically, you know, struggled through life, and it wasn't until I went to a drug rehab and I had, um, was lucky enough to work with this lady called Kelly Whitewood, who she was also dyslexic and she had struggles I think when she went to university, she had an IQ of like in the high 160s or somewhere around then, but a reading writing age of about a 12-14-year-old. But she got some assistance through technology, and just recently she got a master's degree in criminology, sociology, and she's now a trauma specialist. But she was very smart. And she showed me, you know, I could see that there was a successful dyslexic person. And she showed me how to basically used to put the phone in front of me because I'd actually seen Ellen DeGeneres one day when I was channel surfing and she was talking to her phone and I'm like, oh wow, what's happening here? And then I talked to her about it and by getting the phone that I could talk to. Um, that's basically changed my whole life.

Yeah.

I— that's the one thing I— because the first time I went to rehab, um, and I only went to rehab because I didn't want my parents to bury me. I just still didn't want to be alive. I'd break up every relationship that I could possibly ever have, you know, as soon as I got close to somebody. I'd make sure I destroyed it, um, through many, many, you know, many ways. I even basically told a girl once that I cheated on her when I hadn't. Just, she had ended up being, um, becoming one of the accountants at the Reserve Bank, and it was like when she got qualified and got that good job, I did— I wasn't good enough for her.

Hmm.

Um, or just about any other relationship. There was any— anything but hide, um, being dyslexic. And if I didn't have sport, I don't know what I would have— would have done. Um, and even, you know, I was good at sport, but I was scared to try.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely really scared to try. Um, going for jobs and they'd give me a form and it was like, Yeah, I'd run away, you know. Um, and when I first went to rehab, it was called The Bridge. Um, it was set in a classroom situation with about 20 other people there, and they give you a folder, a pen, and some paper, and then they're teaching on a whiteboard and they're wanting, wanting you to write. I lasted 2 days, you know.

Yeah.

That, that was traumatic.

Yeah.

Um, the funny thing was, years later I ended up working at that rehab, and what had happened, I was going around— um, I'll get back to there. What— so when I was in treatment the first time, I couldn't complete all of their written stuff. This was at Spring Hill. So we— I'm Two things I'm good at: I like fighting, and I like being a nuisance. So I decided I'd choose who to be a nuisance with and who to pick a fight with. So I went to our New Zealand's work and income that was for helping unemployed people, and I got a doctor to write a letter, and my therapist to sign it, or the both of them to sign it. They wrote a letter, and the letter said. I needed a learning device to complete rehab. So I was basically the first person in New Zealand to— so they bought me, gave me a $250 loan, um, which then gave me a Samsung tablet. And I took that back to rehab and that allowed me to complete the written stuff. You know, I could talk to this thing and it was writing about— I managed to— it was amazing. It was the first time in my life I could get what was in my head—

Onto your paper.

Yeah, onto paper, onto a written format, and then I could read it. And then I got stuck into this. Yeah, I was— they said no at Work and Income the first time, so I thought, nah, right. I used my dyslexic brain and I thought, right, I'm going to outsmart you. I, I'd actually turned up with a padlock and I was going to lock myself to the door, and I didn't mind if I got arrested because I thought, you know, I'm going to go. Yeah. Um, but Kelly had told— and, and my other therapist had told me to, you know, think smarter. And so I basically said to them, right, every time I've been there before with anything, they'd always ask me to put things on paper and to sign it. So I said to the lady, um, can you put on paper that you're refusing a letter from a doctor for something that's going to help me? And can you sign it and put your name to it? And I threatened her with, um, going to one of our media people. Um, and she's— in the end, they had about a 45-minute meeting, and then they came back to me and they agreed to, um, give me a $250 loan. It wasn't— I didn't I could have bought it myself, but I also knew that I was setting stuff up for future people, you know, other dyslexic people, and setting a precedent. Oh, you know, I can't say the word.

No, you're right, you got it.

Yeah, yeah. And then, um, I ended up working a couple of jobs at the port once I graduated from rehab, worked a couple of other jobs. And each time I'd be authentic and tell everyone that I've, you know, I'm a drug addict struggling from dyslexia. They didn't mind so much that I'd been a drug addict and I've come out of rehab. They said, that's really good. I was doing all right there. And then, then I got an offer at another job and the guys basically said, oh, you're too hard to work with. because I couldn't fill out the paperwork and, and, and this stuff. And so I missed out on that and ended up going to EIT, which is a polytech, to study mental health and addiction. And when I went there, that's when they gave me this— they're a learning assistant, um, and there was a, you know, they had volunteers coming in, and she sort of politely said to me, um, Do you think you'll be able to pass? Well, you do. Do you think you're wasting your time? She didn't. Wasn't her fault. She didn't know I was her first client. She hadn't been trained. She hadn't been taught anything about dyslexia. So it just wasn't working with there again. Kelly, I was about to quit, and my therapist Kelly come along to EIT. And I had my first assignment, and she sat there and typed up— she'd ask me the question and I'd say what I was saying, and she typed up the answers.

Yeah.

And I handed in my first assignment, and I think I got a B+ or something or other. And that was the first time I'd handed in any work probably in my whole life, apart from being at group work at school, you know, through primary school. in college and all that, people would always want me in their group.

Yeah.

Um, because I, oh, I think I've got an amazing brain that can think outside the square. I can see, you know, we need to add this, we need to do that. Um, and but then the teachers would tell me I'm lazy. And there was an option, like, all through the schools, I could either go into the special education class where there was a lot of people with, like, fetal alcohol syndromes or, you know, different things who were You know, but because or I stay in another class, and some of the teachers said I should be in normal class there. You know, because I was obviously intelligent, artistic, and then some were saying as no, I shouldn't. The PE teacher when I was at secondary school on a Friday afternoon, he used to give me money. to go down to town to buy cricket balls. You know, cricket, um, a sport you're playing. Because I was in his wife's class in the afternoon. So it was, um, you know, I'd been like an all-state cricket player, um, when I was younger, and that was basically to keep me at school but, um, not have me in class.

Yeah.

You know, because I was disrupted to her class at intermediate, which is a school between primary school and, um, and, and college. One year we had 5 teachers. Um, the normal teacher we had, she got pregnant and went away, and then we had 5 different teachers. And then the school figured out, okay, we'll remove Kellan from the class. And once I got removed, the rest of the students did well. I organised a strike because the school— the teacher was trying to get us to do work, but I was very good at organising and manipulating people. I told them, this teacher's no good. Well, he was no good for me, but I became so disruptive that I organised a class to do a strike. So we all refused to do work, and that suited me. I didn't have to do work, and then I could go and play rugby or whatever at lunchtime, playtime, and all of that. Some of the things I got organised, I organised other students to put sugar in his petrol tank. You know, some terrible things. They put— one day left the door partly open with a bucket of water and eggs in it, and it fell on one of the teachers. Yeah, it was pretty terrible. But I always just stayed on that side of being suspended or anything like that. We had one day where I was partly to blame, but a teacher actually lost it and jumped on a student. And I, um, kind of jumped on him, but I wasn't strong enough. And then he would— the other school turned up, you know, other teachers turned up. And, um, then they were taking this teacher back, and I threw a basketball at his head and gave him a black eye. Um, I didn't get into trouble because of what teacher had done. He probably lost— it was quite funny. He was, he was upset with— it was mucky day— he was upset with the student's t-shirt. It was an Iron Maiden t-shirt, and he said that's the devil and all that sort of stuff. And then, um, the guy threw bread at him. A lot of it was from my encouragement. Um, yeah, I didn't give him trouble for throwing the ball at his head. And everyone else did.

Callan, what I'm hearing though, you know, is the devastation that you have had from primary school is really still with you.

Um, it wasn't until I was about 4, until I went to rehab that second time. Yeah, maybe even the third time, because of— and I got to get a lot of that out. Um, you know, you tell your life story.

Yeah.

Because that's one of the first things you go to rehab and they want you to write your life story in a written form. And it was like, well, my life story is about not being able to write. Yeah, there's a lot of trauma. And honestly, I didn't want to be alive until I was 40. And even when I left rehab the, um, that first time, I rang up the New Zealand Dyslexic Foundation and I got to do some work with them and we We've raised quite a lot of awareness, been to a couple of their conferences. They helped to get dyslexia recognized in New Zealand. And I met another fantastic lady, Esther Whitehead, that, um, kept on believing in me and that. And I, I just basically decided that, okay, I'm still going to kill myself, but while I'm alive— I told my parents because I didn't I didn't want my parents to bury me. I'm going to do all I can to make sure that anyone else doesn't have to go through what I went through. I just wanted to help as many dyslexics and as many addicts as possible. So then I started going around. I went back to my hometown, Wellington, and I went and knocked on that rehab that I lasted 2 days in, and I wanted to tell them about technology, how you can have these people stay there and they can talk to their phones or whatever and write. Yeah, it's a short-term solution. And the guy Tangi from the bridge, he was— he's actually dyslexic as well. And he's like, well, yeah, that's a fantastic idea. And I got to talk to him, and he— and I said to him if there's any work going, because I was I got— managed to get my, um, Level 4 certificate, but it took me 4— took me 3 years to do a 1-year course and 2 attempts. Um, and he goes— so he basically offered me a job, and I ended up working at that rehab that I ran away from.

Um, Lisa, did you want to say something?

No, I'm just—

please go on. I'm just fascinated by this story because there's a lot of what I do for a living now in what you're saying. So just please continue.

Yeah, sorry, one of the bad sides of dyslexia, you jump history all the time. No, no, it's fine. Sorry, it's fine. But yeah, um, so when I was doing that certificate, you know, the first— it took me till 8 months till I find the— I found the right person who that could help me. And that was through— because I apparently had funding for for help through the polytech. And even though it wasn't working and I wasn't using that lady, I found a lady, Tricia, through Literacy Aotearoa, and we managed to get myself to, um, 51% of the course, which allowed me, um, to come back a year. And I could have gone back next year, but I just needed a break. It would warm me up. In the meantime, I'd been offered a job at one of the organizations, Whatever It Takes Trust, Um, and because I was good at my job for doing placement, and that was working with people with schizophrenia, um, and I really got to help, you know, I made some suggestions. We, um, I think people are overmedicated, and I'm working with one guy who was getting a little bit punching holes in the walls every now and then. Um, And he didn't feel safe sometimes when there was women staff on, from the voices in his head. He felt like some man or whatever were coming to get him. And he had told me this, and he'd been to psychiatrists and all of this sort of thing. So I talked to the boss, made a suggestion, and for a while, every time that, um, he felt like that, he knew he could ring and I would turn up because I lived just around the corner from, um, from work. And we also put pictures of cars Um, atlases on the wall. And this is the stuff, you know, thinking, using my dyslexia, thinking outside the square. And since we've done that, he's basically never— hasn't had a violent episode. Wow.

Um, amazing.

And yeah, yeah, well, you know, he would walk along and he'd look at the wall when he wanted to punch it, and he'd see a map of the world, and he'd be like— then we'd walk to the water and And he'd say stuff like, we could see Mahia Peninsula, which was way out in the distance, and he goes, is that America? You know, but he looked at the map and he could see that, um, the ocean, and then he could sort of relate. And then you'd sort of— then we got him this big atlas and then he could see, and then he realized how big the world was. And we showed him how small— very, very, very intelligent. really intelligent. And I used to always say, I wish I could be anything but dyslexic. You know, I would have, would have been happy to be in a wheelchair. Um, and then I worked with this other guy with schizophrenia who—

Yeah.

He was brilliant on the computer, could do all of this sort of stuff that I wish I could do, but the voices in his head was telling him, um, basically, that he was being sexually molested at 40 years old. And he believed that this was happening 5 or 10 times a day. And he was going through this trauma every day. And I was like, oh no, shit, I don't want to go. I don't want that. You know. So that taught me a lot of gratitude. And then I went back to EIT, to the polytech. And basically, I was getting Cs. And then now I'd found the right person to help me. Um, and I was allowed to hand in some video assignments. I went from Cs to getting Bs+ and a couple of As. Um, the biggest frustration at Level 4, they want you to just basically quote the DSM-5 or DSM-IV, whichever one it is. Um, and I would disagree with it sometimes, you know, like talking about what's good for depression, and I would say, oh, go and do some exercises, eating pure foods and all this. But all they wanted to know was what medication you should take. And, um, my tutor Chris Malcolm used to say, you'll do a lot better at the next level up. You're, you're, you're handing in assignments that are answering questions for the next level where you're allowed to think for yourself more. Um, and I do find that a lot of— this is why I think a lot of dyslexic people struggle, is, um, the education system designed sheep. It designs you to research and not think for yourself. You know, being dyslexic, I like to challenge everything. And if you tell me— like quoting a former All Black rugby player captain, he said, if you tell me the moon's green and made of cheese, please explain. Um, and I, you know, because Sometimes people just believe everything they're told. And I think I believe you couldn't design an education system to be more nasty and more dangerous towards dyslexic people or people with learning differences. And I used to believe, sometimes I half believe it, like it was a conspiracy theory, like I don't want successful dyslexic people because, you know, you've had your Winston Churchills, people that have challenged the status quo. Um, I love that Thomas Edison story, you know, when I got to read that, how his— he was sent home with this letter that said he was— his mum read him the letter and said, oh, Thomas, you're, you're a genius. Um, you're holding the rest of rest of the school is holding you back. And then when she died, he found the letter, and the letter said, um, Thomas is stupid, um, the rest of the school's being held back from him, you're going to have to homeschool him. His mum encouraged him, gave him love, um, and then he went on to achieve a whole lot of things. That in today's education system, he would have been made to feel stupid, made to feel dumb, and made to feel like I need to quit every time, you know, not to be, to be seen. So he was great, you know, how his mum was, was with him. Um, he believed he was a genius. And if, and if you look at, um, I think it's like they reckon 68 or 70% of all inventions throughout history have come from the dyslexic mind. Um, that's the other thing, you know, I believe this now. Nothing new is in a book, so most people are researching a book, and there's nothing new in a book. So we've been using our own brains, and also nothing really new that's outside the box is going to come out of a computer because you're loading that data, and then it's it's always you know you look at the Formula One racing cars or and and then. Indian, Indian Atlas racing cars, all the cars look the same.

Yeah.

You know, because they've been loaded with the same sort of information.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, we had a guy in New Zealand, um, I think it was Des Britton, he designed this motorbike, the twin thing, and it was the first time it had been done and ended up breaking records and all this. And he was a failed engineer. Steve Jobs, you know, He dyslexic, but he was struggling with the, with the school system. Bill Gates struggling with the school system. Dyslexic people end up the entrepreneurs, the owners of the companies that employ these students that will do as you're told. I don't think dyslexic people are very good at doing as they're told because we're always finding a better way. Trying to look for a better way. Yeah, I had rugby coaches used to say to me, we'll teach you something and what— and you always ask why. Um, but yeah, I want to know why. And it's, um, you know, and they said, can't you just accept this is what we want to do? And as we've been— I'd be playing and I was like, that's what frustrates me with, um, when I watch American football. They all follow the same pattern, and I can see there's a big hole over there. I'm like, just run the ball! What are you doing? You can see that guy's going to get tackled. I get, you know, I, I enjoy it, but it's, um, rugby is probably more like basketball where you, um, you can do more of what's happening in front of you. Whereas when I watch American football, it's quite structured. It's set up. every guy has to run 5 steps that way, 4 steps that way. Um, I wouldn't be able to do it. But the more I've looked at things, um, how many— how you look at a genius in any field and they're virtually dyslexic, you know. Um, Muhammad Ali, um, you know, throughout— Jackie Stewart. Who's the Formula One champion at the moment?

Hamilton.

Yeah, Lewis Hamilton.

Lewis Hamilton.

Dyslexic. You know, also Albert Einstein. All of these people that are big geniuses in their field. And there's so much talented sports when we don't hear about it.

Yeah. And they're able to cover it. They're able to cover their—

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they're not too embarrassed to say anything. Yeah, there was an All Black here that had talked about depression, but he won't talk about being dyslexic. Um, you know, and, and it's really good. You have to hide it, anything but that. Like, I go to Narcotics Anonymous camps and I talk about that I can't read and write, and, and then I, um, we go outside and people will come and tap me on the shoulder and go, thank you. I still can't say that I can't read or write. And it's really strong from the Polynesian community here because I have so many friends. And I can't have my bro saying that I'm done. You know, so there's so many people I know.

I've got a question from Chris. He said, and it goes back to your original talk, your original thought. And it says, I can sympathize with the feeling of dread and hopelessness that you described earlier. What advice do you have for people that are ready to just give up? And give up on anything, he means.

Don't give up. Like, even now I struggle with things, so I listen to motivational talks. That guy David Goggins, an American He's got the world record for the most chin-ups, 4,030 in 17 hours. But he, he talks about every day, you know, that I take a step forward, I'm a step closer to my goals. But if I don't, I'm going to wish I was where I was yesterday. And I've had to relate some of that from my drug addiction, you know, because I was a 20-year crack smoker. And I didn't like it. But, you know, I know that each day that I don't use, I'm a step closer. And I had to do that with the polytech, with that studying. I had to use my brain to think about a solution, advocate for myself. And I didn't think I was worth it. but I knew there was other dyslexic people that had a life. You know, I was 40 years old, I thought my life had been thrown away, but there's other young people that are worth it. Um, that, you know, and now I realize I am worth it. Um, I've got to work with the New Zealand Ministry of Justice talking about dyslexia, where they've, um, now set up a court thing where, um, they can help They'll help young people because I got charged at 17 years old for stealing, um, condoms of all things. You know, my girlfriend told me to turn up with them. And so you're a 17-year-old male, you don't care, you have to get bloody condoms. But I got caught shoplifting and I was given community service and a thing called diversion, which involved writing a letter. And I couldn't write the letter, I'd done the community service And, um, so I went and advocated to the Ministry of Justice about, um, you know, how I ended up with a charge just because I couldn't write this letter. They have this thing for, you know, like young offenders, um, yeah, you might have made a mistake, but this charge stuck with me for stealing a box of bloody— sorry, condoms—

just because you can't—

Because I couldn't write it. write a letter. And, um, at first, their first solution— they had a big steering committee and all that, and they come back with me and the lady Esther Whitehead from the Dyslexic Foundation, who's fantastic. Um, and the first solution was they designed a poster that says, if you struggle with reading and writing, can you come and ask for help?

Yeah.

And there was so many educated people working on this, and I had to point out to them that, um, You've put it in a written form. If you can't read and write, come and ask me out. The penny didn't drop. But it frustrates me. But I then, I understand, like, we may all be speaking English, but people at that level, nothing's real. And nothing's real in the world of policy and that until they see it on paper. And that's the way they communicate. I communicate in a different way, so I've had to learn. That's where I think I was really, really lucky that, you know, the college I went to, there was a lot of people that didn't speak English very well. So I've learned to communicate with, with a lot of them. I was made, you know, I was a captain of a, of a rugby league team where half the players couldn't speak English and I couldn't speak Samoan. But I learned to communicate. So now I find it harder to communicate with some highly educated people that have all of these degrees behind them, because if it's not on paper, it doesn't exist.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, it's the only way to communicate.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I wanted them to communicate in my world, which is impossible because they've been so trained to be sheep. Yeah. That, um, so I've had to learn to communicate in their world. Like, you know, when I was at the Bridge, I had another lady, Kate, help me. Well, she did most of the artwork. We designed a poster that was—

we went—

that was about dyslexia, trauma, and, um, and going to rehab as a person that can't read and write when you want— when they want you to read and write.

Mm-hmm.

And there was 580 people from the you know, counselors and all that from the drug industry. The bridge really backed me. And, um, people got to vote on the best poster, and it was 6 foot high by about 3.5 foot wide. And my poster won. Um, you know, there was— I think there's 20 or something, 30 different posters. And so many of them come up to me and go, I never thought of this. I never thought of this. But they're not taught it. And this is the, um, people aren't educated in dyslexia. My, um, I've worked with another lady, Jenny Talbot, who goes around educating the teachers.

Yeah.

In New Zealand, and she's got me to sit in on these conferences with her, um, and so many of the people say, that turn up, they go, oh, I don't have a student dyslexic, I don't have a student that's struggling. By the end of the, um, course, they're going, oh, I think there's half of my class are like this. It's not their fault they haven't been educated, so it's my job to educate them.

Yes.

My understanding in New Zealand, when you go to teachers' college, one afternoon you're supposed to design a pamphlet about one learning differences, and that's all they learn. You know, one of my sisters, she was a deputy principal of of one of the colleges, and now she's quite high up in the education thing. And I try to talk to her about dyslexia, and her understanding of dyslexia is terrible, even though, you know, 3 of my brothers— me and 2 other brothers— are dyslexic. My younger brother, he's, he's a plumber, and he, um, works with another guy who— well, this is when he was in Pitianga— he was working with another guy Leth would do most of the work, because when the other guy did the practical work, it would leak. And this other guy would then sign off the work that my brother was doing, and he would get an extra $10 an hour, even though he couldn't do the practical job. You know, so the good thing is the New Zealand Plumbing Foundation is now allowing readers and writers, and that's been for a little bit of the work the Dyslexic Foundation's done. Um, and, and you can do some video assignments. To me, makes what practical sense? You judge a builder on his ability to build a house. The technology we have now, you could video someone building a house and there's more documentation than that. I've got other friends that are builders.

Yeah.

And the only reason they've got almost qualified is because their partner has written a book for them about how to build a house. She wouldn't know how to use a hammer or a saw or anything. They're really, really good builders. They've got qualified because their partner can write a book. Yeah. And today's whole system is they don't care how good you do your job. It's as long as you can write a book about your job, we'll give it to you. We'll say you're a top builder, plumber, architect, or or, or whatever. Um, I'm proud to be dyslexic. Before, I was— didn't want to be dyslexic. Reason I didn't want a relationship, I didn't want a kid. I've ended up— I've— I have a child now, um, which I didn't know until he was 2 years old, but that's another story. Um, and I was really hopeful that he would be dyslexic because I believe in the future it's going to be such an advantage, and I don't want him to be a sheep. But the other day I got scared. I tried— was encouraging him to do some drawing, and he goes, I can't draw, I'm not very good at that. And that broke my heart because I remembered me saying that. So, but I know dyslexia really well. This is why at the moment, if I get my diploma, I'll be able to get a good education. A decent job so I can pay for him to have the right tutor and find the right tutor. I was lucky that, um, my parents paid for me to go to Spalding at 12 years old. Spalding was one of the learning places, and I went down there. That helped me with my reading. I also want to acknowledge Rhonda Rousey, of all people. That was the first book that I ever read, but she was, um, You know, because I'd come from the world of fighting. And I read where the umbilical cord was wrapped around her throat and part of her brain died. And she uses a different part of her brain for talking. She couldn't talk till she was 4 years old. And that helped me to accept, yeah, maybe my part of my brain that's for reading and writing doesn't work, but I can use another part of my brain.

Mm-hmm.

So that was You know, and to not give up. Oh, what was I going to say? It's something really important in my head. But yeah, just to keep on, you know, even if I don't get as qualified and don't get as everything that I my dreams, if I keep on raising awareness, it reminded me of in the 1980s. when the, um, the gay movement started to come out and you, you know, at first one person said they were proud to be gay and they were sort of in the corner. Now it's spread and it's been acceptable to be gay. It's almost compulsory. But I— that's what I dream will happen in the dyslexic movement. I'm putting my hand up saying I'm dyslexic and I'm proud. Um, and that's You know, I saw how that changed in that world by one person standing up and being proud. So, you know, I'm proud that I'm dyslexic. I wouldn't want not to be dyslexic. I help run the dyslexic— there's an adult dyslexic support page. I ended up becoming the moderator on that. I don't even know how to operate Facebook sort of properly. But the lady went on holiday and asked if I'd take it over. We're over 5,500 members now, and it was 500. But the biggest argument that ever happens on there was when someone posts the gift of dyslexia. Some people absolutely hate it because dyslexia is not a gift, it's a curse. And then some people absolutely love it, um, and I've had to not really have an opinion being the moderator. which has been challenging because I like to have an opinion on stuff. Um, but it's just that mindset, you know, like anxiety and excitement are created in the same part of the brain.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I'm, I'm nervous about being dyslexic, but I'm excited about being dyslexic. Um, it— like when I was working at the job and there was 30 different clients, I could tell what was going on with virtually all of them, um, whereas a non-dyslexic person was so focused on one person, but you could sort of sit back and you could see everything that's going on. And even now when I go to a meeting, I make sure the windows are at my back because, you know, with dyslexia I could see a fly— actually, a fly just flew past me. You know, or someone's riding a motorbike about 2 K's away up a hill. I can see all that. So I, I have— I know my weaknesses and I know my strengths. So I know by having the windows to my back, um, that helps. And I learned these things from Kelly and a few other different people. I watched that— I watched as many TED Talks about dyslexia and drug addiction Because I've learned that that's how I learn, you know. If I— and that's how I got through my study. My study, they'd give us a book and an author, so I would Google the book and the author and look for a TED Talk. And I probably got more information out of that, a 20-minute TED Talk, than I would have out of 5 hours of reading a book that would have taken me forever. Um, and I like what that guy said last week about, um, finding a subject that you're interested in and reading.

Yes.

Um, that's how I could, I could read Ronda Rousey's book because it was about fighting. Yeah. And that, that's, that's the mindset. That's what I was going to say. When I first did kickboxing, I wasn't very good at all. And, um, I had trained with a world champion and I would jump in the ring and he would beat the hell— beat the crap out of me. He was a lot lighter, but, um, I could take a hiding. Never— my first fight night that I got the fight, the trainer said to me, you'll do all right. Everyone's tried to knock you out, but no one could. You can take a beating. Physical pain was nothing compared to the emotional pain that I felt from being dyslexic. I felt from being dumb, um, you know. And then eventually I learned enough about kickboxing that I got to fight in a clash of the cruiserweights where there was probably about 4,000 people there watching, um. And I, I did, you know, I did all right, um. But even when I played rugby, um, I was so good at taking a physical hiding Because it was, um, nothing— physical pain was nothing compared to the emotional pain of being dyslexic or being known as being dumb, being teased. You know, like I even said, I'm never really involved. I was— I knew a lot of gang members, and one day I got to play— was like the equivalent of the Bloods, it was a red gang here. Um, there was 2 chapters of their playing a game of rugby league against each other, and they asked me to come and fill in at 17 years old. And I was playing with all of these pretty big Polynesian guys, all adults, you know, in their 20s and 30s, and I was 17, 18 years old. The only European boy on there was, um, with no hair because it was falling out. It looked like— and I said, oh, what am I going to be, the ball? Um, But it was great fun, and I got it, went out there, and I was good doing, chipping the ball over, doing all of these sort of things. And I ended up playing 4 or 5 games. I got asked if I would join the gang. I wouldn't join the gang because I was too dumb. I didn't even feel like I could be a gang member, um, you know, and hanging around. And that, that's another sad thing. I would meet so many people that ended up as drug dealers and involved in the gangs Um, because that's the only way they felt they could make some money to pay for their kids to go to school. I don't know anyone that wants to be a drug addict. They're doing it for 2 reasons: one, to escape the pain, the trauma, or 2, they're trying to better their own family. Um, you know, and that's the other interesting thing is when I use meth, it made me focused. And when you look, half of all dyslexic people are, um, they believe have ADHD. And Ritalin has a very similar makeup as, um, as meth. And when I first used meth, it allowed me to stay focused, it allowed me to read stuff. It worked like Ritalin. Um, it was actually really good, you know, short term. Um, and I believe there's so many people with learning differences that are underdiagnosed because they can't afford to go to the doctor, they can't afford the price of some medication. So they're, um, um, they're, um, they're, um—

Self-diagnosing.

Self-diagnosing themselves with the drugs that actually at first help. The same as, you know, drugs saved my life in a way. Because it stopped me from killing myself. It stopped me from doing these things. It gave me a bit of an income. Um, I was clever enough to be in that world, but I could, you know, I put it down to my dyslexia. I could see when trouble was going to happen and I'd disappear. I could see when the police were going to turn up and I'd disappear. And again, my sport as well. I played One year that I played rugby, um, in the team photo— I can't have a look at it— there's, um, there's about 5 guys that ended up in a red gang, 4 guys that ended up in a yellow gang, and there's 3 or 4 guys that ended up in the police. You know, we're under-20 team, and I can get on with all of them because I'll treat a person how I want to be treated. And And that's also the beauty of sport. And even now, when I've told people that I struggle with reading and writing, I was so good at hiding it that people go, I didn't know you couldn't read and write. You're intelligent. Being dyslexic doesn't mean I'm not intelligent. If anything, most dyslexics are— I think you have to be above average IQ. But what's IQ anyway? you know, um, that's only intelligent in one particular subject that they're marking you on. That thing from Einstein, judging the ability of a fish to climb a tree doesn't mean it's stupid.

Yeah.

Um, and what I would like to say is this, you know, we need to help the dyslexic people, we need to help people struggling. We either Are the entrepreneurs, the people inventing things, the ones running the companies. So we're either the biggest taxpayers to the government, or we're the homeless people, we're the people in jail, or we're the people— for 1 out of 5%, we're the people that cost the government the most money.

Yes, yes, absolutely.

So if you invest in dyslexia, you invest in the future It'll be a dyslexic person that comes up with a solution for the environment. Um, and that was the other thing. I got to sit with the New Zealand Associate Minister of Education, and I asked her— she'd come up with all these solutions with dyslexia— and I said, um, so how many dyslexic people have you sat down and spoken with? And she said, oh, none, maybe one. And I said, oh, let's have a forum on being pregnant and we'll only invite men. You know, to me, that's how silly it is. So you're getting all of these experts, which I really appreciate what they're doing, but none of them, virtually none of them are dyslexic, or they've got mild dyslexia. You know, we need to talk to the people that have been to jail, ask them what they, what they need for help. What I'd like to finish really with, and there was this post that I saw and it had, um, a big fat hunter who had shot a lion, and he was proudly sitting next to it, you know, I killed this lion, I'm a fantastic hunter. He's got this big gun, and it says, until the lion learns to write, the hunter will always be glorified. And that's how I feel the whole world of, you know, until the dyslexic learns to get something down on paper, the non-dyslexic will be glorified. made to feel like they're brilliant.

Yeah.

And that's what it is. So being able to get things on paper, yeah, it's really important. Ideally, I'd like— my reading age is not too bad now. As long as I know the subject, I can recognize the word. But I can't spell those same words. And people get I've seen you read that word, how can you not spell it? And they just don't understand. But I don't understand how they don't understand, you know.

Yeah.

But life is what it is. Um, so it's my job to be proud to be dyslexic, to represent, you know, a lot of dyslexic people might not agree with me, but as long as we're talking about dyslexia and we're looking for solutions And being positive, it's important that we talk about dyslexia, as I said, because if we help the dyslexic people, we increase the GDP for everybody, and if we don't, we're, you know—

Exactly.

There's studies that say over 70% of all drug addicts are dyslexic. 50% of, um, prisoners, homeless people are all dyslexic, can't read and write. So you need to do something. And as Einstein said, if you continue to do the same thing and expect a different result, that's insanity. So, uh, we're being insane and we're asking for a problem. Yeah, well, Kelly, I am No, I—

your story is fascinating. Again, you know, we share a commonality in what I do as, um, as a job now. And, you know, I think that people underestimate the severity of what happens to kids who are unsupported in the school system. And, you know, we are working to get that information into the school, but what you're also doing is getting that information to the adults then. who have been, you know, come through this system, who feel stupid, who didn't want to live, who, you know, maybe decided to get involved with drugs and alcohol, and they wind up or homeless or in jail, whatever. And we're getting that information to those places. So, you know, the fact that a lot of counselors don't understand dyslexia is troubling.

Yeah.

Because you're working with clients who— this is the way they think, and the clients oftentimes don't know why they've struggled. So I like the work that you're doing is so important, and I'm just so excited about that because that's one of the things I'm trying to do with my, with my career.

Yeah, ultimately, as you said, it'd be perfect if we could teach the children. I would— I believe that every country in the world should have a policy of assessing every child when they first enter primary school and then providing them with the way Yeah, that suits their learning style. Yeah, like in New Zealand, um, most Polynesian Māoris have always learned with a, with a, you know, through hands-on practical way. And if we bring that in, you'll be helping the Polynesian people, the people of all ethnic races, but you're also helping the dyslexic people. And that's, and that's how we're, um, you know, you teach people that way and judge them on their ability to do the job, not their ability to write. And also, yeah, it is traumatic. There was that study by— I forget who it was, but she— philosophy of shame, and then it talks about an adult growing up who can't read and write suffers almost the same shame as someone that has been through incest. Yes, yes, you know, I think I've heard that. Yeah, we've not— it's not the same trauma, but it's the same shame, and shame can be, be a horrible thing. I had so much shame about being dyslexic, um, but now I feel sorry for non-dyslexic people. I wonder how they get on in this world.

We tease about that in my family too.

Oh, like when I worked with that, with Kelly, there was a few times she would be teaching people and I'd be like, oh, that, yeah, clicking, clicking, and I could see the others were sitting back. It was, it was beautiful. Um, she was teaching, talking, and showing things on the board, and I could see it because it was mainly visual and all of this sort of stuff, and the non-dyslexics were struggling. But half the time, so we would, we'd both end up laughing because we were almost like communicating in a different language. And then when I went to EIT, half the students just wanted to sit there and read a book and get some information. When the— when we had guest speakers and they were teaching this stuff, I was getting so much information listening to them.

Yeah.

And that's another thing I found.

Yeah.

A lot of— probably 20 students ended up A students the whole time. Virtually only 2 of them kept their jobs because when it came down to something happening, because, you know, in the world of mental health and addiction, clients will always follow the book. You know, they'll never have an episode or nothing, ever go back. But most of these people had to go to the book to find the solution to what was going on. Thinking on their feet, being dyslexic and thinking on your feet is, um, Second nature. I could never do anything until I was cornered. You know, I had to be cornered because I was so scared of doing anything or trying anything. Um, I wouldn't do anything. I'd try to hide away in a classroom. I'd hide away in all of this. And if no one could answer a question, then I'd put my hand up and answer it. I knew the answer, but I was so scared to say the answer, um, that I had to be backed into the corner. And that was again Come back to the kickboxing, I get backed into a corner, take a beating. You know, only had eight eight fights counting a couple of boxing only and only lost two. But I was so good at you know I loved it. I was getting hit. I didn't have to feel the pain. And I also know that when sports ended. at the end of the game, people would— I remember my last game of rugby, I got man of the match. Everyone was celebrating. I was sad.

Yeah.

Because I had to go back to reality.

Yeah.

I was so happy playing sport because I was out of this horrible world where everyone was judging me on my ability to write.

Yeah.

Um, just when I finished, I worked another job at port. I was only loading containers, and every now and then we'd get this Computer engineer who designed a new format for the containers to be loaded. They're loading soap boxes by hand, drive them in. And, um, I'd look at the pattern that they'd given, I'd say, that's not going to work. And they say, yes, because computer said it is. You know, that was designed if a container didn't have a dent, and probably 25 to 30% of all containers have been dented. So So my boss in the end used to allow me to go and design the new way of designing the container to put it up, and I would sort it out. But even there, we used to have to scan the things. I nearly quit the job because all I had to do was scan a pallet and then reload it in by hand. I nearly quit, but I was lucky the boss spent time for me to learn how to do that. I was so productive in that job that I was the only one that was allowed to work by myself. They would have another team, 2 teams of 2 people, and I was doing practically the same work as them. So it was good. I was getting the equivalent of their pay. And again, I was earning some good money, but as I was getting older, I was laboring, doing hard physical work, but I knew that I couldn't do that forever. And I knew— and also, I knew I had a good brain. At first, it was interesting, you know, I would pick up 2 boxes and chuck them in, and it was interesting, I was finding a new way to do it. After 8 years, I couldn't find anything new to do about it.

Yeah.

You know, dyslexic person brain needs to be challenged all the time. Well, maybe not just a dyslexic person, But you know, what's helped my dyslexia too is I'll have a coffee in the morning and I won't drink because of the anxiety. You know, and also our brains race anyway. So I try to eat fewer foods, do some exercise, and I try to learn something new every day. Yes. And I like what that guy said last week about just by coincidence at work with TV. When you watch it, it's got, um, you know, it's written— it's, what do you call it when it's— when they're talking and the words are down below?

Closed captions.

Subtitles.

Yeah, subtitles.

Yeah, I just—

yeah, just by coincidence had been watching the TV because I was too lazy to go and grab the remote once you'd sat down. You know, at work you're getting a 15-minute break, you've made a coffee, and then you realize the subtitles are on. But that's been really helpful. Um, you know, the subtitles there is, um, and, um, because everything I spell is my photo recognition.

Yeah.

Isn't that amazing that you could practically learn all of these words by photo recognition?

Yeah.

Um, when you don't know the ability to decode the word, you know, I see, um, when people are talking about syllables, and you might as well be telling me it's in Chinese.

Yeah.

But I can, I can recognize these words, and people go, but how can you read that word but not spell it? And I'm like, well, how can you? I don't know. Um, and that's the other thing I really want to say. The first time I went to a Narcotics AA meeting, Narcotics Anonymous, Someone handed me a preamble to read. With 50% of all— 50 to 70% of all drug addicts can't read. They handed me something to, to read. I left.

Yeah.

And then someone ended up coming to me and saying, oh, you just don't want to give up drugs. No, it wasn't I didn't want to give up drugs. I didn't want to be sitting in this uncomfortable situation where you were going to make me feel stupid and you're struggling. And I see this every now and then when I go to meetings. Someone's struggling to read something. I know the preambles virtually off by heart because I've heard them so many times. I'll go and grab the thing and read it for them. And then people say, but you can read. I know I can't read. I know that preamble off by heart. I start the day— every day I start with— I get up, I walk to the ocean. I'm lucky that I live near the ocean. And I do the Serenity Prayer. God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. And then I say, I'm grateful that I'm clean, and I'm grateful— now I say, I'm grateful that I'm dyslexic, and may I be surrounded in a positive, loving vibe. And I'll finish my night exactly the same way, because, um, I'm living the dream where I'm proud to be dyslexic. You know, I prayed to be To be proud to be who I am. I'm proud that I'm not using drugs, and I'm grateful to my higher power, whatever that is, that I'm that I'm clean sober and I'm dyslexic. Before, I hated being dyslexic, and I I hated being a drug addict. But I I remember I. Finish this game of rugby, and I was starting to not play as well, and people said, oh, he's doing drugs, he's not doing that well now. And I overheard them. I was so happy because, um, someone had called me something else but a dumb dyslexic. You know, I was happy to be called a drug addict. I'd finally achieved— because I tried, I tried to be a drug addict for 3 or 4 years before I could. You know, I'd drink alcohol and I ended up sick. No, actually, the only time I passed the maths test, I drank a bottle of vodka and snuck back into class, and I ended up getting— being put in the top class for maths. I don't know how it worked, but I then tried all sorts of different drugs. I didn't like the drugs that put you to sleep, you know, where you'd sit there like a— like you're in a coma. I didn't like them. But the speeding sort of drugs that get you— got you up and about. Um, and I finally found something that made me not be dyslexic.

Yeah.

And not be dumb. So yeah, reach out to people whether you're dyslexic or non-dyslexic, um, and we'll, um, we can change the world together. It's my responsibility Everything's my— I'm not responsible for what's happened. I'm not responsible that I'm dyslexic, but it's my responsibility to fight for, for me, for my child, for everyone else's child, for all those prisoners, for all of those homeless people. It's my responsibility to fight for every one of them, and it's my responsibility to look for solutions. Yes, I would love to be able to write on paper. That's been a challenge at work. Um, we have to write notes and it's being put on paper. What I was watching a lady write the other night, and what she'd done in 10 minutes takes me an hour and a half.

Yeah.

Yes, it's frustrating and it makes me feel— and it gives me a migraine.

Yeah.

But as long as I carry on writing it every night, and it takes me— my first, when I was working at the printer, would take me Sometimes I'd be there an hour after work, but it was my responsibility to get those notes done, even if it took me a bit longer. In the end, work managed to find accommodations for me. The hardest thing for work to get accommodations for me was through the government. New Zealand's been perceived of having a very left-wing liberal government. But they have no understanding about learning differences.

Yeah.

And that's not Jacinda's fault. She, like when I spoke to Jenny, she said the political parties change, but most of the political advisors don't change.

Yeah.

So again, we're getting the same as that computer. We're loading the same system and might be a different, a red computer instead of a blue computer, and they might think slightly differently, but they're getting the same bit of information and they're coming up with a variant of the same.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of the same solution. So, you know, like apparently Google, the CIA, okay, all of these companies now are employing dyslexic people to think outside the square. Richard Branson. And they're being, being successful. If most of the corporate world can realize how successful you can be by employing dyslexic people by looking after the dyslexic person, by encouraging a dyslexic person, well then I can't see how the, I don't know, federal people can't see the same thing, you know. Take down the walls. We're all people, what is it, tētānata, tētānata, tētānata, which in New Zealand Māori means the people and the people and the people. I think I said it properly. I struggle. I really love the New Zealand Māori culture, but I really struggle with the pronunciations, and I think it's because of my dyslexia. You know, it's— I didn't realize my phonics was bad until I was talking to my phone.

Yeah.

Every now and then these words would come out different, and I thought I was pronouncing it. Perfectly, but it's when I see it, oh, that's not that word.

Callan, we've been talking for an hour, over an hour.

Yeah, I thought so, I was getting tired.

You've given us a lot to think about, you know, well, that's what I started with, you know, that learning and learning problems dwell in activities and cultural practices and not in the heads of individuals, and that's what we've got to get across. You know, that we can teach children to read and we must. And as you reiterated a number of times, is that when we don't teach children to read, we're losing them, and then they cost us 10 times, 100 times more through the prison population and homelessness and the rest.

And the lost revenue from having it successful. That's right.

Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for talking to us.

Can I just close lastly? We need to give boys books that they're interested in. So many times we give boys books that are so PC that they're not interested. You know, I read a book written by a woman, Ronda Rousey, but I was interested in the subject. That's the first book I ever got to read. Um, and as the guy said last week, if you're not interested, you won't be able to read it. And when you're interested, you recognize the subject and you recognize the words. But yeah, thank you for this opportunity, and may we all stand up together as all dyslexic people worldwide. And that's the only way we're going to change things.

And be proud to be dyslexic.

Yeah, definitely be proud to be dyslexic. And I, I apologize for the rest of you that aren't dyslexic. Hopefully.

Ah, thank you, Callum. Thank you so much. Oh, I've got to finish with, where can people find you? Facebook?

Um, yeah, I'm on Facebook, Kellan Jennings, or, um, I'm on the Adult Dyslexic Support page. Um, yeah. Oh, and I work at Ocean Health and I promote my work.

Very good.

Ocean Health, uh, rehab, we're the best, um, private rehab in the country. And I also— I can't pronounce the trust that I've started because it's in these big flash Māori names, but we're in Heretonga Street Hastings, and we're helping, um, any addict or any non-dyslexic person or anyone can turn up and we'll sit there and help them. But I'm, yeah, definitely on Facebook, uh, Callum Jennings, and I'm the guy trying to walk across. Ah, yes, actually, my— I'm walking across one of those rubber bands, and that's about what life's like.

Yeah.

One step at a time, trying to balance down the middle. Yeah. And be proud, not just the selected person, but be proud of who you are, no matter what race, no matter what thing, because basically we're all human beings. And that's the other thing I've learned. No matter where we come from, we all want the best for our children. Yeah, no matter our race, no matter our whatever. And we— no one wants to see any other child suffering.

Yeah.

So if we all work together and we all believe in each other and we all find, look and see what we have in common, not what we have in difference. That's even, you know, I have to find what I have in common with a non-dyslexic person so I can work together with them. And, and they have to find what's— what they have in common with me. Um, if you've got a company, I just want to encourage you, go out of your way to employ dyslexic people because your, your company will become more productive. Maybe not short-term, but it'll become more productive and you'll make yourself more money. Um, so if you want a successful company around the world, do it. All of the— what is it, 15 of the top 20 companies throughout the world have a high percentage of dyslexic people. Um, you know, so the opportunities there for anyone running a company, all shareholders and everything, if you want to be more— well, almost 40% of all self-made billionaires dyslexic. So if you're a non-dyslexic, here's your opportunity to get an advantage for your company by employing dyslexic people.

Thank you. We've got to go because we're running out.

Sorry.

You're fine. That's fine. It's— I, I'm Lois Letchford. I'm on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. Lisa, we find you on Facebook. And my book is Reversed: A Memoir. Grab a copy. And I have to thank my son Isaac and his buddy Chris for the technical support. Without it, this would not happen. And please hit the bell for the notifications, the like, and subscribe.

Can I get a copy of your book? How do I get that?

Amazon.

Amazon.

Amazon.

Yep.

Amazon. Yep. Do you— you're—

yeah, thank you, Isaac.

Thank you.

No.

He's on Facebook. You're not on Twitter or LinkedIn yet?

No, no, not— I don't understand all that.

Anyway, thank you so much. And next week we're talking to Lenore Hall, my sister, psychiatric nurse and expertise in and interest in trauma. So thank you, and we'll see you next week.