When Learning is Trauma: Chris Lashwa, Lois Letchford, & Lisa McCarty

Welcome, welcome to When Learning Is Trauma. I'm delighted you decided to join us and listen. Today we're talking to Chris Latchua from Albany, from the Albany area, and Chris is 23 and out of college with a 2-year degree in computer science. Throughout his life, he struggled with anxiety, with Asperger's syndrome and anxiety disorder.

Yes.

It's always been difficult for him to learn to be social and learn new things as quickly as most. He said he's had to fight the education system in order to get the accommodations he needs. He, after being let go from the University of Albany, he decided to start his own game development and mathematics programming. Currently, he's contributing to the development of games with Werewolf Moon Studios as COO and the assistance of the founder, Izzy Letchford. I hope to make a difference, he says. Chris says, I hope to make a difference in the gaming industry. So welcome, Chris. I'm glad you've been— you're here with us today. Can you give us a short summary of your schooling?

Uh, sure thing. So when I was in about, I would say, first grade is when I first— is when I realized that I was struggling quite a lot with Learning to read, learning to write. So my mother's first step was to bring in some people from the district to see if they could help me, you know, learn easier. Obviously that didn't work.

Really? What happened?

Well, it's a bit— my memory is a bit hazy on that, but from memory what happened was Lisa McCarthy, she just said, we'll try to listen in.

Oh, thank you.

Do you want to try and bring her in?

No, she said if she's— Lisa isn't with us today. Sorry for interrupting, we just had a message from Lisa. Lisa's had to work today, so we're delighted she's listening in and she's joining us. But we're talking about Chris in first grade. I'm not surprised your memory is fuzzy. One, it happened a long time ago, but also when trauma's involved and some Panic is involved, the memory is impacted. So what do you remember about first grade?

Well, um, after the— when the people came to our house, uh, they were really just running through the usual things that schools do for elementary school, and I just wasn't picking up on it. So from first grade to pretty much all of elementary school, I was having trouble with reading. Um, I was kind of on my own. Really?

No support?

Not— well, I wouldn't say no support. There were a couple of teachers that were attempting to help me. Um, I was in the special education program. Um, at the time, obviously, I didn't know what that meant. Uh, so, um, I was taken to a diagnostician where I was— or at around 6th grade when I was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. Now known as Autism Spectrum Disorder. And as it was being explained to me by the diagnostician, I didn't know what was going on. All I knew was I was different, I wasn't normal, and that upset me. So throughout most of middle school and at least half of high school, I was very antisocial. Apparently, according to my peers, there were a lot of things that— there were a lot of behaviors that I had that were very strange, um, like for example biting my nails, twiddling a pen around. Sit in a bit.

Yeah.

Sit in a bit.

In what?

Sit in a bit.

Sit in a bit. We're just— we're getting up our camera setup because Chris is with me in our house and we have a new camera. So, you know, we've got our director Isaac giving directions as we work. There. Sorry. So you were saying—

Sorry, that looks better now.

Yeah, you had— and I know if I sit back, I become a headless horseman. So what you're saying, in middle school, they thought biting your fingernails was an odd thing?

Yes. So like, I, uh, going back to what I was saying, all I knew was I wasn't normal. I was upset about that, and it took me a while to accept my disability as a positive thing rather than a negative thing.

Yeah.

And throughout my life, I would say that it's had positive impacts, like, for example, the usual thing of being able to recognize patterns that most people wouldn't be able to recognize, and being able to pick up on certain, I guess you could say, visual cues. Verbal cues were never my strength. I, uh, when I was young, I never really picked up on sarcasm. I had to really drill that into my brain to understand it. Uh, I never— some things that would be considered common sense, I had to essentially learn from the very beginning.

Yeah.

I mean, hell, apparently there are even some things— sorry, apparently there are even some things that should be common sense that I still can't pick up on. So I'm, I'm improving every day.

Yeah, yeah, it's a challenge because I don't think people are aware of how differently sometimes people on the Asperger's syndrome see the world. And it's not just you, you know, there's a whole range of it. Now, I'll tell you a story later. So you were diagnosed, you think, in 6th grade, but how did you get on from 1st grade to 6th grade?

It was very difficult.

In that, what was happening? That's your memory, it was just very difficult.

Yeah, there was, there is not a lot that I remember between that period of time because aside from just being very shy, very distant, I only— I had a very small group of friends.

Yeah, uh, but even having some friends is really good.

Yes.

Just finding some friends.

Now that's something that extends to today as well. There are very— I have a very small group of friends that I can really relate to and trust. But as I've, as I've found out throughout life, it matters, uh, quantity— quality over quantity.

Yes, that certainly does. Um, so you said getting the diagnosis of Autism Spectrum Disorder was really helpful to you.

Yes.

In what way? Can you expand on that for us?

Well, it, it put what I was experiencing into a term, into, into words.

Yeah.

That I never really thought about up until then.

Yeah, yeah. Ah, that's fascinating. It had to go into words, so otherwise it was just an experience that you thought, I'm different, I'm weird. But once you shifted it to language, you— it gave some, some language for you to work with to say, ah, now I understand.

Yes, up until that point, all I knew was I'm different in some way. I can't understand why. Uh, I thought everyone was supposed to be the same.

Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah. So that's, that's fascinating. You know, um, what— and one of my questions here is, do you have any positive memories from school?

Oh yes, all the times that I've spent with the friends that I mentioned earlier, right? Uh, going to events for the school sometimes, even though at the same time it was also very uncomfortable due to, you know, social anxiety. But despite that, there were some times when I was able to get over it. This was especially the case for the school dances, the prom, you know, that thing that high schooler— every high schooler looks forward to.

Yeah, yeah, they're quite traumatic events then, aren't they?

And one thing that really impacted me is one of my friends that I, that I had known since elementary school was— had even more difficulties than I did. He was a really smart kid, But he never could pick up on social cues. He was never a very social person. I was really the only per— I was one of like 2 to 3 people who could really get him to speak, to get him to be social.

Yeah. So there were people who were worse than you.

Yes.

And then you could identify with them and feel that you were part of it.

And you know, looking back, I think that's— my thinking is that's how we became such good friends. We could relate to each other.

Yeah.

In that it was very hard to socialize.

Yeah, yeah. Do you have any teachers, any memories, good memories of teachers who were kind to you?

I can't remember any names, but I do remember there being a couple of teachers in elementary school and preschool that were very nice.

That's—

And a couple of high school teachers as well that were, you know, you know how it is, those cool teachers, those teachers who act cool, who are very chilled, relaxed.

Yeah, and that, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's good. We've got John. I think that's a pretty common thing in psychology, giving something language is useful for working with it. That's, that's what we're finding with trauma. Once you can identify it and say, this, this is what happened, you shift it from being stuck in your brain to giving it language. And that's what happened to you, and that was really important.

I see that Xena left a comment.

Yes, Xena's got a comment. Do you want to read it?

Yes, you commented, was it your parents, a teacher, a coach that brought up the idea of possible diagnosis, like for observation to see if you had ASD? It was my parents. It was a combination of my parents and, and from memory, one teacher from the school that noticed that I had the potential for having ASD. That is what influenced that, that we go and see that diagnosis or diagnostician.

Did you gain enough support getting the diagnosis?

Support as in?

What support was given, or you were just given, ah, this is what you are, now go and deal with it?

More just, that's what you are, go and deal with it. Uh, we're gonna put you in the special ed program, we're gonna give you stuff like extended time, uh, something to help with your writing, like a little typewriter thing, and that's about it.

No social support at all?

Not really, aside from, aside from my friends that I had at the time.

That's, you know, that's what— when I think about What we can do for children, the awareness that we can learn social skills if they are taught, I think is something that needs so much more work. What do you think about that?

I agree. Yeah.

So, and so you weren't given any support to learn how to interact with other children?

Not really. The picking up on the social cues, picking up on everything, I had to learn on my own.

Yeah, and that's something that you struggle with.

Yes.

So it's like reading, if you don't get it, this is the help we're going to give you, and if it works or doesn't work, well, that's too bad. Social skills, you haven't got it, too late. That's, that's something I think that we can really drive for, is some social change. And I think there's Facebook groups and there are other groups pushing for social interaction. And social support.

Now, because of my limited social skills, a lot of friends had become distant because they didn't know what was wrong with me. They didn't think about—

Wrong.

Hey, yeah, wrong, yeah. They didn't think about, hey, maybe there's actually something wrong. No, he's just weird. We're just gonna keep our distance.

You would have listened to Martin Bloomfield. Yes.

Well, yes, I edit your videos.

You edit my videos. And what Martin Bloomfield said to me in one of our talks was, what are we teaching the other children in the class when we find it okay to exclude one child? And I think that's what I'm getting from you. It's not only you're excluded, but we're saying to the other children, it's okay because he's different. rather than how are we going to work as a classroom to engage this child and bring in and to be more inclusive, I suppose, is what are we wanting, more inclusiveness. Xena's got another question for us and John.

Yeah, let's start with John because he's— Oh, John just says, um, do you think that the special ed program was useful at all for you? Sort of, much like, much like the same program that they had at Hudson Valley, for example. It did help to be in a more secluded and quiet environment for taking tests, because one thing that I didn't mention was twiddling the pen around, biting my nails, all of those other things— those actually helped me focus on something else, which at the same time helped me focus on what I was doing, like a test, for example. I am a terrible test taker. It is hard for me to— because it is hard for me to sit still and for long periods of time. Uh, in, in terms of, uh, autism spectrum disorder, those are known as tics.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And because I can't just— without that, I can't just sit, uh, I find myself just looking around the room and completely shifting my focus onto something else. And then by the time the test time is over, I only have maybe half of the questions answered, which obviously isn't good. So—

Yeah. So it's focus and then even answering the questions you're struggling with.

Yes. Now, nowadays, rather than moving, moving my hands around or whatever, um, I have developed a new strategy for— to replace these tics, which is basically just occasionally shifting my focus over to something else, uh, From time to time. Like, for example, how I'm sort of shifting my vision over to something to the left of us.

Right.

And to the right of us, and then in front of us where the camera is.

Yeah.

I find that that helps me organize my mind.

Right. Yes.

To focus on what is— what I need to focus on.

Yes.

Now, that doesn't help with test-taking. I still suck at taking tests. tests, but it at least helps. I, I, I, wow. Yeah, I at least have a chance when I do these things. Now the next question from Xena is, did you feel like you needed to be put into special ed? I know that many people with neurodiversities, especially when young, are just put into it because the school doesn't know what to do. I'm not too sure about that. I think At the time, I thought I was put into special ed just because I had— just because they required me to. It felt like— I felt restricted at the time, until I— I think a big reason for that is, throughout a lot of my life, I didn't really want to ask for help very much, because I'd always thought that was a weakness. That, oh, why should I ask for help for something when I know I'm confident that I can do it? But growing older, I realized that asking for help is one of the most important things you can do.

Yes.

Because not everyone can do everything themselves.

Yeah, yeah. And it's a challenge to even ask for help.

Yes.

You know, it takes a lot of courage to say, ask for help. Now, you said you were put into special education. I think that might mean different things to different people. What did it mean for you?

At the time, to me, it felt like I needed to be excluded from the other students. At that moment, I thought of it as a bad thing.

So from grade 3 onwards?

Yes.

You were in a special education classroom?

Yes. Well, not a special education classroom, just I would occasionally be taken away from the rest of the class for taking tests, and cert— for certain classes, I wouldn't even be in the same room if there was a test going on or a review or whatever. I only spent about half of my time in the same class as the other students.

Yeah.

Now, this didn't happen for every class, but it happened for at least 2 of them.

Did you have reading in a general classroom?

Yes.

So reading and mathematics and science were in a general classroom, but then you were put aside for other things?

Yes.

And you were able to learn in the classroom?

Yes.

Oh, that's good. John, relating to tics, I've also heard the phrase stimming used in relation to things done by people with ASD. I've not heard that term, have you?

Yes, stimming. Yeah, I'm mixing my terms up here. Yeah, it's stimming is the correct term. Tics are— tics you would use to describe Um, people with Tourette's or people with other, with other disabilities that cause them to do— that causes their body to do things that they have no control over.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep, that's my bad.

Did you feel the accommodations by themselves would have been more helpful, like quiet spaces to take a test? Did you want to be in a typical classroom, and how do you feel About it when you were little.

Yes, I feel like the individual accommodations would have been more helpful rather than saying, okay, yeah, you're, you're, um, for no reason at all, we're just gonna put you in this other classroom because you're in special ed. We're not gonna explain why. That's gonna remain a mystery to you. I actually had to ask my parents why this stuff was happening because I didn't even, at the time, I didn't even know that I was in special education. I thought that I I was just a lucky— I was, I was selected from a lucky few selection of students saying, hey, yeah, you, um, you guys are going to a different room.

You deserve this.

Yeah, basically.

Um, you deserve this special treatment.

It wasn't until I, I knew the truth, uh, where it was like, oh right, so, so that's why this is happening. I knew something felt strange.

Yeah.

But, at the same time, even though it did little to help me, the fact that it did— the fact that it helped me in small ways was enough for me. Now, granted, this did not translate well over to university, because, as you already know— well, as you know, but the rest don't know, um, I was kicked out of UAlbany because of my low grade point average, And because of— because I wasn't getting the help that I needed in university.

Yeah.

In New Albany, more so than Hudson Valley. Because I tried to get the accommodations that I need, they waited a very long time only to tell me, okay, yeah, we're missing certain paperwork from you, we're gonna try— we're requesting that now. By the end of the semester, by the next semester, I got the information in that I needed, From memory, it was because the main office for of the business building was taking too long to transfer the paperwork stating that I have autism spectrum disorder and that I need these accommodations. It also didn't help that for my Japanese class, I was I let the professor know, "Hey, I'm having trouble." Keeping up with some of these, uh, sub— with some of these, uh, chapters, some of the content, and I'm trying to get accommodations. She wasn't having any of it. She accused me and another student of cheating just because I was getting a minor amount of help with the homework outside of class, which was just ridiculous. I almost got reported because of that. That, though. So, the only thing I was able to do, um, was drop out of the class, because I talked to my advisor about this, she didn't know what was going on, so she suggested, why don't you just drop out of the class? And because I did that, um, I was already on academic probation, indicating that I needed a certain number of credits to—

Pass, get through.

To not be kicked out. But because I had to drop the class, I no longer had the amount of credits that I needed, thus I was kicked out.

Yeah, that's— I mean, that's to me emotionally distressing anyway, but today it's also financially distressing.

Yes, especially with how much these universities are charging for classes.

Yeah, and because now, you know, I think what we're saying too is if you have accommodations You have to keep your workup, the accommodations and documentation up to date.

Yes.

You know, which is a significant problem. So you've got to keep it up to date, you've got to follow it through to say, have you got it? Where is it? Get it to the people. And I think really almost you're saying you shouldn't start the class until the documentation is there.

Yeah, I agree.

Because, you know, I can't do it until it's there. I remember that, it was horrible. Do you feel different about your diagnosis now, in general or in retrospect, than you did as a child? Xena, you ask such fantastic questions, it's wonderful.

To answer your question, yes, I do. Um, with the support of some, with the support of some great friends, it's, it's been easier to accept my myself for who I am, and to, to consider this diagnosis, to consider this disability, more of a superpower than a, than a curse. That's not to say that I, that's not to say that I don't struggle with things nowadays, still.

Yeah.

I do. But the pros are outweighing the cons.

Yeah.

I've learned to, I've learned to deal with the cons.

That's good to hear.

How has the superpower helped you now?

Ah, Isaac, could you get the book The Strangest Man from around the corner, please? Yeah. I, I, as you talk, I think about things I've read and about other people who have struggled with the exact similar things in different situations. So we've got to know we're not alone. You know, that's really important. So I bet I won't be able to find it now.

So while you're looking through that, um, to answer your question, Isaac, I would say it's helped me learn at a faster rate than normal. I've had to, I've had to rethink what studying means. Every, every, every person has their own way of absorbing content and studying. Recently I have found Recently, as in a few months ago, I have found the method that works for me.

Mm-hmm.

And by doing so, and at the same time taking advantage of my disability, I find it easier to pick up on certain things and learn certain things.

Hmm.

And what is this strategy? Well, rather than, rather than just reading multiple pages in a, in a textbook or whatever, trying to understand terms, I try to have an understanding of what the definition of specific words mean.

Yes.

And this can also translate to mathematics as well. Breaking, um, so, and rather than, rather than looking for a definition of what is an, what is an imaginary number? What is, what is, uh, the Pythagorean? Well, everybody knows the Pythagorean theorem.

Yeah.

But, uh, the point is for mathematics, you have to learn. I, I break down the formulas and the equations into chunks and try to understand what each part contributes to the full equation.

Yeah, yeah. And it's a language and it's understanding. I had this conversation yesterday with a man, you know, with teaching mathematics. Mathematics is a language and you have to understand the difference between each word and the difference between inverse and What's the opposite to inverse? I can't remember the other one, the other terms, but every term is so specific and you have to really get hold of that language and you've got to use it and practice it and play with it and it takes longer. It takes longer to learn is my understanding, is the way I would say.

Now speaking of languages, technically you could say the same thing about programming.

It is.

And also learning foreign languages as well. I follow this YouTube channel, I can't remember the name, at the time, but he— I think his name is Xiaoma? Yes, he's—

Yeah.

He's Chinese, if that wasn't already obvious. So, basically, he has this— he has this miniature— miniaturized video on his channel explaining his way of learning languages, which is basically, you— you look up the translation for what you want to know, you absorb— You learn the individual components of that sentence from the grammar, whether it's past tense, future tense, or present tense, and how the words flow together. And you do that with sentence after sentence, common sentences that you would learn or that you would need to know to communicate with someone in that language. And by doing so, you've already done all the hard work. You have a basic understanding of the grammar, you have a basic understanding of the symbols, if the language has the symbols. And similar to programming as well, you have to know, you have to know how the variables work. You have to know how the, how the code strings together.

Yeah.

That is just one of many different methods that people use to learn things.

Yeah. But, ah, yes, you're right. Did you find that straight-up problems, like I imagine you're saying the number problems, like 7 8 15, were easier for you to solve than word problems?

Strangely, no. The word problems are actually easier for me to comprehend because with word problems you have to think about where all those numbers fit in. Yeah, why the equation exists in the first place. Whereas a normal equation is just, for example, 24x 16y, uh, multiplied by 6y times whatever in brackets divided by 7. Solve for x and y.

Yeah.

That's a very complicated equation, but you get the gist.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, the way the brain works. So what do you wish would have happened, thinking back on your schooling, what do you wish would have happened in school for you?

I wish people would have been more supportive of me. I wish—

And supportive in what way?

Understanding that I have, that I am not normal, that there is something different about me than the other, than than other people.

Yeah.

Understanding that and being willing to work with me rather than just shoving me to the side and saying, you know what, yeah, you're weird, I don't feel like hanging out with you.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's more than just giving you support. Again, we go back to what Martin Bloomfield said, but it's to give other people in the classroom skills to deal with you as well.

Yes.

Include this person rather than just exclude.

Yes, because that was a very common problem in the social groups, the social circles that I was in. But you know, I, I don't regret it. I don't regret losing the people that didn't believe in me, that weren't willing to accept me for who I am, because currently I have— I already have friends that are willing to, that are willing to accept me.

I just wanted to read a quote from this book called The Strangest Man, and it's about the man, uh, Dirac. What's his first name? I've forgotten his first name now. Paul Dirac. And he was famous. He's famous for The Mystic of the Atom. I've read the book. It was a long time ago. But one of the quotes really and truly Stuck with me, one of the stories, and it's a story of Paul Dirac, and you can comment on it. Let me read it. The story begins during one of Dirac's lectures. Moments after he finished talking, when the moderator asked if anyone has any questions, someone in the audience says, I don't understand the equation on the top right-hand corner of the blackboard. Durack said nothing. The audience shuffled nervously, but he remained silent, whittling away the time of day, looking unconcerned. The moderator, feeling obliged to break the silence, asked for a reply, whereupon Durack asked, That was not a question, it was a comment. I mean, so what the purpose of that quote is that people who get to the absolute top of their field can still come in and take things literally. And if the person in the audience had known that, he should have said, please explain that equation, rather than writing it as a comment because Durack, Paul Durack, obviously famous for what he did. He was just not going to answer because you didn't ask a question. Do you have any of those incidences?

Um, yes. Now you see, um, hearing you read that and looking at the pages is a perfect example of thing— is of something that I still struggle with to this day. If you hadn't explained that, otherwise I would have had to— I would have had to read that Um, section of the book 2 or 3 times to fully get a grasp on what the significance of that is supposed to be.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm a, I'm a relatively fast reader, but that doesn't, that doesn't always mean that I can comprehend everything in, uh, chapter by chapter. Sometimes I have to reread certain sections to get a grasp on what the author is trying to convey.

And it's not even reading chapter by chapter, it's really paragraph by paragraph. Paragraph by paragraph.

And in some instances, sentence by sentence.

Sentence, yes. Well, I've just written a paper. I've connected with Professor Tim Rozinski and together we've put in a paper that has been accepted to be published in The Reading Teacher and it talks about the complexity of language and that's what you're talking about now.

Yes.

And it's not only understanding that, But it's understanding why Paul Durack— because you would have done exactly the same thing. You didn't ask me a question, you just made a statement.

Yes.

So, Lisa, did your family not explain what was happening because they didn't want to label you?

I would say the reason why they didn't explain what was happening was because I suppose they knew that I was going to have a negative reaction to it, because— well, when I was— when I was really young, that's when that— that is when that, uh, not wanting to ask for help, not wanting to— I guess you could say I had a— I guess you could say I had a weird temper back then. Um— I've always had minor anger issues, which I have to— which I have to work on day by day. I suppose it was— from memory, my parents had told me that, as I've grown older, that when I was young, I used to lose my temper and assume the worst about things, and about myself especially, early on. So, I suppose they didn't want to tell me this up front, Because they didn't want me to think poorly of myself. Obviously, it was a little late for that once I found out for myself, and obviously that obviously that aggravated me when I eventually found out. Like, why didn't why did you not tell me this? This is about this is about myself. This is me. I'm suppo um why would you not why would you not tell me something very important about myself? Because I believe that if I had known this earlier on, I would have tried to find other ways of dealing with it.

So we do have to let you know, hey, there are things that are different between you and someone else, and let's give you some strategies. Let's— and I, you know, it's only recently that I've found therapists who work with families. It's not a child and individual that we can work with, but it's a combination. It's a group setting, the family setting, the school setting, and it's interactive.

Now, after going to a diagnostician, I actually did go to one of those family therapists.

Right.

And that didn't work for me at all.

Did a family therapist with the family or just with you?

With my— with both of my parents.

Right.

And that didn't work because I was still questioning why things were the way that they were. These were— all of these things I had to figure out on my own. I had to accept on my own.

Yeah, and it takes time.

Yes.

It's not an instant fix. Well, Lisa's second question: What advice do you have for parents about speaking to their children about what they are going through?

Well, I believe it's important for parents to be open with their children, even if they're afraid of the reaction. That the child is going to have. It's just something you have to accept. It's just something you have to live with. And eventually, the child— as the child grows older, they'll realize that you— that it was the right thing to do.

Yeah.

It's— it's— I, I believe it's important to let your children know what's happening as early on as possible, or at least when they're old enough to somewhat comprehend.

Did you know of anyone else like you in the world?

Yes.

At the time, when you were a child?

Yes.

The little boy who was worse than you, you said?

Yes. Well, actually, 2 of them.

Right.

One person that I had known since I was— since essentially 3rd grade, and one person that I knew around the same time, maybe Like a year after 4th grade.

Right, yeah, because I think, you know, like knowing that Paul Dirac, you know, a famous scientist, struggled, does that help or does that hinder? And would it have helped knowing it earlier that, you know, you can get to this point but some people are still struggling?

Yes. Now, still on the subject of these friends, I'm going to sort of contradict myself here, but bear with me. Uh, one of the— one of these friends was pretty mean to me back then.

Yeah.

Uh, but I later learned that it was because he didn't know any better. He had— he had even worse issues than the other friend. Um, he had anger issues, he had abandonment issues, he had, uh— I'm not gonna go into specifics, but, um, he— he felt completely abandoned, and he In fact, um, I suppose this isn't too personal. He actually, uh, during one of my birthday parties, his parents at the time actually just dropped— randomly dropped him off. Now, I didn't know who he was at the time, but according to my parents, uh, he somehow— he knew me, he knew my name, and he wanted to be friends.

Mm-hmm.

Um, yeah, I just found that very interesting.

Yeah.

Now he's in a better— he's obviously in a better spot now. A better— yeah, he's obviously in a better, uh, situation now. But, um, and he— he— from, uh, hanging out with him despite him being somewhat mean to me, um, I, I, I worked with him. I knew that— I knew that he didn't know any better. He Um, we became closer as the years went on. From what he told me, things were getting better for him, and now he's one of the very few friends that I still hang out with to this day.

Yeah, which is good. Now we've got Xena saying, I hear you a lot with that on groups. Now I'm not sure what that means.

Uh, I think she means, uh, circle of friends.

Ah.

Friends coming and going.

Yes. Okay.

Stuff like that.

It personally hurt one of my grades a lot last semester, but I've learned good experience. Do you prefer to work alone or in groups for a large project? That's a fantastic statement.

I would say that depends on the project.

Yes. Yeah. But even being asked that question, I think, is huge for people to recognize.

Yes, I would say if it's a project that requires a lot of work, it is nice to be able to work in groups.

Yeah.

But as for— it also depends on the people in the group. Now, it's pretty common— it's, it's, it's, it's pretty bad that I have to say this, but it's quite common for group projects to be handed over to 1 or 2 people in the group and then have the other people basically just sit on their butts doing nothing, waiting for the, for the project to be finished. That's way too common.

Yes, yes, yeah. Oh, I hear you a lot means it resonated. Thank you, very good. And then—

How does the— oh yeah, I almost forgot. Isaac mentioned, how does the company you mentioned at the beginning help you with your autism?

Or does your autism help with the company?

Yes, I would say, I would say that's a yes.

The autism helps with the company?

Yes.

Or the company helps with the autism?

Uh, both ways.

Right.

Right, right. So because— so being a part of this company has helped me realize that it's not— most, most jobs that you work in, you're considered a number. You find that in pretty much almost any job that you go to, whether it's fast food, whether it's an office job, whether it's working for an accounting company, anything like that. Uh, but being a part of Werewolf Moon Studios has made me realize that compa— that companies should be like a family.

Mm.

That you, um, people— being surrounded by people that you can trust. And actually being able to work with these people, being confident that the tasks at hand can be done in an efficient way without any fights.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's good. And you're still— you're learning a lot, and there's a lot to learn if you're doing gaming, you know, because you're still marketing, aren't you? There's still a lot of marketing stuff to do. And you gotta sell it all.

And being part of a game— being part of a game design company also makes— is also very helpful for realizing why, why people play games in the first place. It's not just meant to be an escape to— from reality.

Yeah.

Most good games, that is, um, depend on strengthening your Your reflexes, your understanding of the world, your—

Cortex.

Your frontal lobe and your inner cortex, I believe. Yes. Take, take for example a first-person shooter. You're surrounded by enemies, you're in a, you're in a, let's just say a fortress surrounded by walls and barriers, and people up on towers looking down ready to shoot you. You have to, you have to take in the environment. You have to understand where you need to go in order to not get killed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, now in a good game, you would be, you would be able to look around, understand what you're supposed to do, and have the enemies react as if they would react in real life.

Say if you're You know, never hope to be in that situation, surely.

Yes, but you can see— but, but you have to think.

Yes.

And yeah, obviously it's rare to be in that situation in the first place.

Yeah.

And obviously in— obviously it's different to hold a gun in real life than it is in a video game, but at least, at least with that you have that basic understanding of Um, going through the area, knowing when to duck down, knowing when to run, knowing when to stop. Um, some good examples of this are the Hitman series and the game Superhot.

That will be on me. I don't do these things.

The game, the game, uh, let me just give you— let me, let me tell you why I'm mentioning these. So Superhot is a game Where you're in a virtual reality environment and you have to move slowly because as you move, the enemies move.

Ah, okay.

For example, if you step— if you take a step forward and you have a person with a gun in front of you, they will shoot a bullet and time will freeze. You have to— you have to keep every— you have to be strategic. You have to keep every movement in mind because if you get shot or you get hit once, you're dead.

Yeah.

And then Hitman, for example, you play as a character named Agent 47. You have to walk around large-scale environments, you have to scope it out, you have to occasionally disguise yourself as, uh, the people surrounding you. You gotta think, you gotta think your situation through.

Yeah.

Um, because even if you're disguised, some people on some people in the environment will recognize that it's you.

Yeah.

Oh, and just like in real— just like be— just like a real-life hitman, um, you have to— there is multiple ways to take on your target. There's multiple ways to complete your mission. Like, for example, in one mission you might, um, the person you're trying to assassinate may have a drink in front of them, so you have the ability to put Ah, multiple. Dress up as a bartender and poison the drink. Or you could dress up as a colleague to the person, and then when there's no guards in the room, you could—

Poison the drink.

You could just take them out. Or poison the food. There's tons of different ways, depending on the situation.

So that's a fun way of even manipulating the situations and just enjoying it. Chris, I've really enjoyed talking to you and understanding a bit more of your background. And how we can look at, you know, helping parents who are dealing with children just like you today. Because, you know, we don't go away and we are still in the education system. So we need to give advice to those who are still going through it and look forward to what we can do. So I'm taking away from it, learn to ask for help or teach your children to learn to Ask for help.

And also encourage your children to ask questions. I, I'm— I know that some, some schools, uh, discourage asking questions. Some teachers will actually, uh, get angry at asking questions if it's something that's already been gone over. And I feel like that needs to change. I feel like— I believe that's one of the things that needs to— one of the biggest things that needs to be changed in the school system.

Yeah.

You should not— your children should not be deterred from asking questions about things they don't understand because otherwise how else are they going to understand it?

Yeah, and being aware, I haven't got this, I haven't understood what you have said, so that the teacher then just repeating it isn't the answer but we've got to find another way around it. Yeah, so Xena does Does seeming— seeing media shows with ASD characters make you feel reassured, more understood, comforted? How does it make you feel? Ah, and like The Good Doctor, Atypical, Adventurous Time, Big Bang Theory. How do they make you feel?

Now, I've seen a couple of the examples that you've listed here. I would say it's very interesting seeing how these characters are portrayed.

Yeah.

Seeing, like, an extreme example, Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory. He comes off as an annoying, an annoying know-it-all character who, who's always trying to correct other people.

Yeah.

But when you really look closely at the character, you understand that he's a very, he's a very smart, he's a very smart person. And the way that he sees things are different from, uh, how the others see things.

Yeah.

As well.

That's a very well-written show, The Big Bang Theory.

Yes.

Yeah.

And Adventure Time, I have not seen that show in the longest time, but I think I understand the character you're referring to.

What about, how did it make you feel when Elon Musk publicly said he was on the spectrum last month?

I feel that it's, I feel that it's very interesting that rich people, uh, people who are who have made it in the industry are talking about their struggles and all of that, but at the same time, that, that's all, that's all well and good, but what about those who are— what about those who aren't making as much money like me and, and everyone else who isn't getting the help that they need?

Yeah.

Where is, where is the, where is the help and support for those people?

Yeah, yeah, you're right. It's fine to say it when you're wealthy.

Yes, it's one thing for— yes, it's good. It's good for rich people, like for example Ryan Reynolds, um, recently saying that he has, uh, anxiety disorder and that, um, he's been struggling through this with his whole life. Now that's good, it makes him look more human, but at the same time, again, he has, he has the support that he needs.

Yeah.

Because he's well known in the industry, he knows a lot of people, He's rich. What about those of us who aren't rich? What about those of us who are in the lower and middle class?

Yeah, and surviving each day just to do it.

Yes.

Well, thank you. Thank you, Chris. Let me turn my page. Thank you for joining us today. And for Isaac and Chris— Isaac does all of my getting this all organized for me, and Chris actually does all the editing for my shows, which I cannot do myself. Um, Xena's got another question. Do you feel the exposure normalisations that celebrities, successful people talking about their mental health and differences helps society relate to those on the spectrum or hurt?

I feel like it does both because at the same time, like I had said before, it does show that those people are more human But at the same time, it also— what is that doing for everybody else? What is that doing for everybody else? Yeah, until we can get— until we can get schools and organizations to spread the word about other individuals who, like I said before, aren't as rich, aren't as popular, nothing is going to change.

Yeah, it highlights it, and it highlights the problem and highlights inequity As much as anything. So where can they find you, Chris?

Um, you can find me on Facebook, you can find me on Instagram, you can find me— you can find me on— yes, you can find me on Twitter as well. You can find— you can— from memory, you can also find my name on the Werewolf Moon Studios website.

Very good.

In the introduction section— or sorry, in the Meet the Team section.

Well, thank you. You can smash the like and subscribe button. Everyone who does that helps our channel grow and helps get the word out that learning should not be traumatic the way it has been for most of our guests. Hit the bell for notifications for the uploads to my channel. And share this with your friends and family and those with dyslexia. You can find me on Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn and Instagram, my YouTube and my website. And Xena, thank you for all of your questions. Xena and Lisa and John, for all your questions and being involved today. It is absolutely fantastic. My book, Reverse to Memoir, is now available as an audiobook. Available on my website and on Amazon. And next week we talk to Leah Schwartz's mother, Ayelet, and we look forward to speaking to her about her journey, not only the child but the mother. And all the links are in the description below. So thank you.

And that includes the link to the company website. And speaking of the company, before we end this, please be sure to look out for the Werewolf Moon Studios LLC YouTube page. where you'll see announcements for upcoming games and videos showing the develop— the current development of what we're working on. There's some really, there's some really cool stuff in there, so please be sure to check that out.

Well done. Fantastic. Uh, that's just Xena. Nice work. Thank you, Xena. Thank you so much. Greatly appreciated. Join us next week.