When Learning is Trauma: Darren Clarke, Lois Letchford, Lisa McCarty

Welcome, Darren. When I read your bio, you know, I think I want to know how— I want to know the story behind it, but above, on top of that, I want to know how you survived.

Well, thank you so much, guys, for inviting me onto your incredible show. I feel truly humbled to be in your company. So I really appreciate, really appreciate your time. So, so, yeah, what would you like? Or would you like it—

Yeah, give us an introduction because you need to tell us where you are now and what work you're doing. So that's your intro.

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. So, so I've literally just started. I'm a week in now, a week and a half in to my brand new role where I'm a director for Succeed with Dyslexia. So we're a global organization to spread more awareness for dyslexia on a global level. So I'm absolutely thrilled to come in at that level, but I guess the story, but beforehand, of getting to, you know, to where I am now is, you know, if we go back kind of— I know you spoke about my kind of school. I used the word the unit purely because that was terminology that was given to me.

Yeah.

It was the terminology that was used in the sense of, you know, a unit and how they would then deem children with The wording for a child back when I was in school, kind of, you know, in the '80s, was a troubled child. And I think that terminology is absolutely, you know, is horrific in that aspect because no child is a troubled child. It's just not really understanding how to best kind of help, you know, that child. So I was deemed as the troubled child. I was deemed as someone who needed to go to the unit, almost pulled out of every single lesson that I deemed important. Maths, science, English, geography, technology. The only subjects I was allowed to attend was PE, which is physical education, and drama. So that's probably why I like to be on the stage and talk to so many people. But those were the kind of the core lessons of English and maths and everything else were kind of robbed from me in those aspects. And that was purely because when they were given— when you go to the secondary school, so high school for us, they would give you a set of exams. You'd have to sit those exams and then you would deem which class that you're going to be sat in. And because I would struggle to read the questions, then alone be able to decipher through what the actual answers were, straight away from me off. So I think it was like week 2 of my secondary school, I was pulled out of lessons and then put into the, you know, the place called the unit. And that, that's really difficult because as a, as a child growing up and going to a secondary school, your confidence is, you know, when you leave, uh, you know, kindergarten or primary school in our terminology is that you're kind of a big fish in a little pond, so to speak. So you've grown, you've got that confidence within you. You then go to a secondary school or high school, your confidence— you feel so small and you just feel so vulnerable in that sense. And all you want to do really is just fit in. You just want to go underneath the radar and you just want to fit in. And what actually happened was it was complete opposite, because for me, whenever I would go into and have, you know, the register taken, you know, to check everyone turned up for school, and then you'd go off to your lessons, all my friends and all my peers would go off to all their different lessons for the day, and I would walk across the school playing field across into a thing called the unit.

By yourself?

By myself. I mean, there were a couple of other children in there, so it was probably about 4 or 5 of us. But that changed and fluctuated throughout the time because the trouble is, I still got up every single morning, I was still confident that there was going to be some form of change. I'm quite a positive person in that sense. So I would go to school. I mean, I didn't miss school, I didn't pretend I was going and didn't go. I genuinely turned up every single day and went to school in the hope that I'd be given something to to occupy my mind. And the unit was, to give you an idea, the school, it was a huge school. And it had windows obviously all around the actual school. I can't draw it for you. But it was almost everything. It felt like every single window for every single class that all the students were in could actually look down on this unit within the school playing field. So even when you were in there, you could look out and see everyone theoretically staring down. So you just felt like you're in this massive goldfish bowl the whole time. And it was, yeah, it was a tough, tough time, if I'm honest.

Yeah.

I'm amazed that you were so positive. I mean, that's fantastic because so many of our kids, they don't want to go to school. And they don't go to school.

No, absolutely. And probably, you know, I look back, I mean, I'm 44 years of age now, so I probably look back on it, you know, there's probably some sort of past trauma that I've not kind of uncovered in those aspects. But genuinely, I love to learn, I love to meet people, I love to listen to people's stories. I just have this kind of urge to want to learn. And yes, there were days where, you know, I say I was happy and I'd go to school, but some of those walk, you know, those, those— I had to walk into school, which was probably about a 30, 35-minute walk from my home. And sometimes, you know, walking in those gates, they felt like they were so huge and everything just felt very small, you know, within that. And I think after a while it just became, which was sad, became the norm. It became the normality of that I was just going to go into those kind of class. They kind of, I'd say, experimented every now and again. Probably wrong terminology, experimenting, but every now and again they would pull me out of the unit and let me attend some of these classes, like the maths class and the English class and these other classes. But of course, I've missed so many lessons and as I walk in, the amount of anxiety—

Yeah. Yeah.

That I would feel.

Yeah.

Um, I mean, I was, uh, diagnosed with, with chronic asthma as a child, okay? And I've not taken an inhaler for, for probably about 25, 25 years. I'm just saying, if you have asthma, then you do take your inhaler. But, but I only realized later on in life when I was, you know, having, you know, talking, uh, talking about some of the trauma that went on that it wasn't actually asthma, it was severe anxiety.

Yeah.

And the shortness of breath and the tightness of the chest deemed that I needed an inhaler, but it was the actual anxiety that, that I was suffering as a child.

Nicholas had that in first grade, exactly the same thing.

Really?

We thought it was asthma, or it presents as asthma, but it's not. It's anxiety.

Yeah.

And, and I just remember as a child Just really, you know, thinking about it now, I kind of, you know, take a second breath. But that sheer, yeah, thinking, oh my goodness. And I remember going to the doctors and having this peak flow test where they have to blow and it gauges how you breathe and everything else, and had these inhalers and the amount of asthma attacks. But then when I look back on it, it was panic attacks.

Yeah.

You know, we're talking early teens. You know, and I guess a lot of this trauma was due to the failings, I guess, in the educational system at that time.

My mind just boggles, literally. What I suppose the positive— not the positive, but you managed for some reason, you managed to survive.

Yes.

Because your story, I think, could have been my son Nicholas's story. Because he just looked dumb. Sorry, that's the word terminology. And that's what they projected onto me. Your kid's not very smart.

Yeah.

And that's shocking.

Can I interject just for a second? I can't help but think as I'm hearing this, and we'll get to this, you went on to be wildly successful, which is terrific. And yet you suffered all of this traumatic schooling experience. And I think people don't take that seriously enough that it really profoundly affects people. They'll say, well, it's fine, he did great, look, he's successful. And I don't think that they're connecting the fact that it wasn't fine at the time. How do you feel about that? Maybe I'm just—

No, no, no, no, I agree with you wholeheartedly. We seem to, as humans, I guess, and, you know, your previous guest that you have would probably be able to articulate this much better, but we tend to try and think as humans, we try and fix things. And we just think as soon as someone's, you know, could be technically broken, I guess, in the educational system and, you know, severe anxiety and not being able to kind of go with their peers and the confidence and things. that was going on. And then we then say, but that person then went on and started businesses.

Yes.

That person then went and managed this. That person's almost like, tick, that person is now cured, or that person is now fixed, so it doesn't really matter. The truth is these things stay with you throughout your entire life. You know, it doesn't matter what age you are, and you know, the way the brain thinks, and these things that you have to kind of deal with. And when you open them as an adult and start talking about them, and you almost relive those experiences.

Yeah.

And even now, you know, someone would probably say, well, you're, you know, you've spoken to thousands of people, you've done this and stuff, you're an incredibly confident person. But that takes a lot of time to try and get yourself into that state of mind to be that confident. It doesn't always work. You know, I can quite happily walk into a cafeteria sometimes and not feel like I can order. Or I can still, you know, it's some of those elements where it flashes back, where that element of confidence. And I guess with my dyslexia and my ADHD, I tend to— people have always said that I'm hypersensitive, as in I will take something that could have just been something someone said slightly wrong or something, not in a derogatory way, but for me it can close me down straight away.

Yeah.

it could be an email, it could be anything, and I'm overanalyzing it thinking, how can they, you know, what have I done, how do I, you know, change this? And it's those elements that we have to kind of deal with, you know, going forward regardless of the age. But yeah, I agree with you definitely.

Do you want to say something, Lisa?

No, well, I was thinking that sounded like the reason this whole thing came about with your son, where, you know, he mentioned as an adult he was reliving that and it was Because you, you know, you did school and then when you finished school, I mean, I've read what happened after you left school and that wasn't pleasant either.

No, I mean, so I guess, you know, if we take the, you know, the school element, leaving school and not being allowed to sit any exams We know how competitive the world is, and I guess it's children where we, you know, we try and protect our children in the sense of within the school element side of it. But the truth is, when you then leave that kind of school arena, so to speak, it becomes even more competitive in, you know, in the workplace. Do you think how many tens of thousands of people across the world leave at the same time, all looking for, you know, different positions of jobs? I left school not really being able to read and write properly because it just didn't come easy. So, getting a job after school when a lot of my friends were going off to college or sort of youth projects or anything else, you know, and apprenticeships and jobs, for me, I had to kind of literally went from shop to shop to shop to shop to shop trying to literally just encourage them to to employ me. And I think I had 26 different application forms because back then it was paper forms, it wasn't everything was online. And I remember just riding around on my BMX, my bike, and just going into any— I went into fruit and veg shops, I went into banks, I went into funeral parlors, I went to florists. I mean, this wasn't a plan of this is career that I wanted to do. This was any door that operated as a business, I was walking through and asking them if there was a position. And each time I would take the application form home and my mum would help me write the application form out. But there was one thing that really stopped me from getting the interview. Now, on the application forms in the UK, there's always this top box And it was always, no matter what application form it was, it was the top box on the right-hand side, and it was where you would put your qualifications. So they would ask, you know, what did you get in English? And for us, it would be A, B, C, D, or E, or F. And then it's humanities, and so on and so on. Now, that box was always left blank, and there was a reason why it was left blank, because there was no qualifications to put in. So each time I would go in, I would ask the to the manager, take it home, get the application form, cycle back, go and hand it to the manager. And then I would wait for a phone call or something to go on, and nothing materialized. And it was— now, I'm not encouraging people to lie in this, in any way, shape, or form, but for me, I then try and— being dyslexic, I try and look at things from a different angle. And it was that moment when I was going into a supermarket and I I was applying to push trolleys for 12 hours a week, so trolley collector, which I absolutely loved. I just remember walking in and looking at this application form, and just before I went in, it was like this moment where I just stared at that box and something told me that that was the box that's stopping you from getting a job interview. Fill it in. So, before I went in and dropped it in, I I came back, I sat on the curb on the side of the road, and I got a pen out, and I thought, what grades would I have got if I would have taken some exams? And I'm not condoning that, saying that you should do this. So I started writing, well, I don't want to give myself great grades, so I'll give myself a C. You know, I don't want to be an A. I don't want to, you know, anything to prove. But the thing is, I wrote down what grades I should have got, what I thought I could have got. I took the application form in and I got the interview and I was able to get the position for 12 hours a week as a trolley collector. Now, it was never told that that was, you know, that was the reason, but I know in my heart of hearts that doing something like that, that was stopping me. And the only reason it stopped me was because I didn't have the opportunity in school to put those grades in that box. So I guess it was just a little bit of forward thinking, I guess.

You know, I find it amazing that after all those trials that you didn't give up. I think that's fantastic. I have in my own family, and I see, I see some of the clients that, that I know who struggle with writing, and I imagine them trying to fill out an application. And it looks like, you know, like a first grader is writing it. And the damage to your self-esteem, feeling like, I can't do this, must be pretty great. But how did you not give up?

So for me, the opportunity of— growing up, I always wanted to work in a bank. Now, I knew that it was never going to happen. One, because I didn't have the qualifications, and two, to be perfectly honest, I probably would have struggled being in there. But working in a bank, and this is where it was strange, it wasn't the actual job, it was the outfit I could wear to work in the bank. So I wanted to wear a suit. That's it. I just wanted to wear a suit with a tie because, looking back on it, if I wore a suit and a tie, I would be respected. I know this is crazy in some aspects, but as a—

Yes.

Leaving school, I thought I could have a, you know, if I had that outfit on, then the world is my oyster. And I always remember when I was actually applying for these jobs, I was riding around on my BMX and I borrowed my dad's suit, which was too big for me, so the arms would come down here and it would look a little bit kind of disheveled. So I would walk into these places with this overgrown suit on, you know, after getting off of a BMX and asking for an application form. I know it seems a little bit crazy, but I I saw an opportunity because I was so restricted in school and I was told, you go to this unit, you do some colouring in and some dot-to-dot, and you just listen to whatever it is going on, just occupy yourself. And I must have had over 250 different teachers over that period of the 5 years because each teacher that came in was a substitute teacher and The way I see it, it was more like childcare. It was more like daycare. They were just kind of monitoring us to make sure that we stayed safe, you know, in this unit. So what enabled me to continue getting a position and a job is I saw it as an opportunity. I knew I'm very goal-driven in this sense. I knew that if one of those application forms took me to an interview, then I'd have the opportunity to have the interview. Once I had the interview, the opportunity interview, I could then have an opportunity for a job, then I can earn some money, and then I can progress. So I saw it as— I always have these kind of big goals in my head of what I want to achieve, but I always break them down really quite small. And then I kind of— I guess it's tunnel vision or hyperfocus, so to speak.

Yeah.

But it wasn't without trials and tribulations. It was those moments when you fill this application form, you get so excited, this opportunity, and nothing comes back. But I guess, you know, with the odds, once you got to sort of 25, 26, then hopefully there was, you know, an opportunity that comes around. But these were quite, you know, these were part-time jobs, and, and it wasn't, you know, I'm not saying— I mean, I absolutely love every job that I've had. I loved in, in the aspects it gave me the freedom and the opportunity to grow knowledge-wise and meet people and learn things. But it wasn't like a career. I wasn't trying to grab an apprenticeship job or a job with that kind of career side of it at that time. It developed later into a career in retail. And I got to some very high senior levels within retail. But at that time, it It was a job, and I cannot tell you how proud I was. When I got that first job, 12 hours a week as a trolley collector, I was the best trolley collector ever. I loved the job. I cherished it. I would try and work overtime. I would try and do anything within that establishment to try and, I guess, to try and prove myself.

Yeah.

But I just loved working, even in all the elements.

Who was your support system when all this was going on? Sorry, I keep cutting in, Lois.

No, no, no, it's fine. It's perfect.

Yeah, who was your support system?

I'd say, you know, my parents were incredible. My dad was incredible. My mum is truly, truly wonderful as well. So I guess, you know, I came from a background where my The area that I grew up in, no one that I knew went to university, very few went to college. It was quite a deprived area, a lot of crime and a lot of things that actually happened. My dad at the time, when I was about 13, he kind of left work and had to kind of give up work through kind of mental health and his actual health as well. So that was a real battle as well, to have to kind of almost care for your parent as well as they're caring for you, and then growing up and then going through all of everything else that was going. But I guess, you know, what drove me as well was, you know, wanting to kind of help my parents, but equally, you know, the conversations I would have with them, but I was never— I never had any expectations for me. So, you know, we could say, you know, you want your child to— every parent wants their child to, you know, to be happy and be safe and everything, and that's absolutely, you know, you want to kind of protect. And then you have these aspirations, I guess. Some people have these aspirations of, well, you know, I think you should go to college, you should you should go to university, I think you should get this job, but you say it from a place of love and care. And it wasn't because my parents didn't love and care for me, you know, they did in abundance, but there was never any expectations of, you need to go to college, you need to do this, you need to do this. So I took that upon myself to put the expectations on me, which I, looking back on it, I guess was quite heavy. You know, I burdened those things on my shoulders. And because I was continuously being told, you can't do that and you can't do this, from, you know, from the school system, I built up this kind of resilience of, I guess, an unhealthy one, some aspects of saying, you know, I'll prove you wrong. Because ultimately you just need to prove to yourself and have that ability. But I guess that kind of drove me. But so I guess I didn't really have any one to kind of look up to, so to speak. I mean, we'd say who you aspire to be. I just, I guess I just wanted to just kind of help and do my bit, I guess. I hope that answers your question.

Yeah. Lisa and I come to this topic from 2 different viewpoints because I come from the teaching viewpoint and she comes from the mental health viewpoint. Long, you know, as Working with adults. So we ask different questions. And I, I know when you left school, even getting that job came with a lot of mental health issues for you.

Yeah, I, I think we're— I mean, we're better now. There's still huge amounts of work to do to help and support someone with, let's just say, with dyslexia. You know, I didn't know I had dyslexia and ADHD until the age of 36. So, know, everything that I'd done was undiagnosed. And so, so even I didn't know how to help myself or how to have the tools to be able to assist me.

Yeah.

I just felt that the school system thought I was not able to do those things. So when I started working my way up the, you know, up the ladder, so to speak, within, you know, the corporate jobs, It became a real struggle. And it was just simple things that— well, when I say simple things, it was just, it was things that I would have to overanalyze and work on and probably spend 2, 3 hours when someone can do it in sort of 10, 15 minutes. And that brought a lot of stress and anxiety because you ultimately always feel judged. You always feel that you're not going to be able to achieve what you're effectively being paid for. So there was a, you know, for me, I guess growing up in the area that I grew in, I mean, going back to the area, there was a lot of crime. You know, we were broken into countless amounts of times and different cars being stolen and things. And, you know, there was a lot of crime in the area. So I guess there was a lot of trauma in that. And obviously, school, so when you go out into the workplace, you take a lot of baggage with you.

Yeah.

So, so there was quite a lot of mental health kind of struggles, and I think, you know, sometimes I would work for a job and I would work so hard to get the position above me. And what I realized is that sometimes the position that I was doing, I was struggling with, So, in my head, I thought if I worked really hard and got a promotion, then I wouldn't have to worry about these jobs anymore. But what happened was once I then got the promotion, I was doing those jobs and then something else, and then something else, and then something else. So, I was almost build-blocking all of these struggles, and it was just, yeah, it just, it completely, at one point, completely burnt me out, you know, to those stages.

Yeah.

And I've learned now, to manage it in so many different ways. But it is, I guess, when I say burnt out, I mean literally my brain felt like it was on fire. It was just frazzled and exhausted and just, I couldn't, you know, just, yeah, really lethargic. And when that happens, your confidence then drops as well. And then when you've then got to a point where you've got a, you know, quite a big role, so to speak, in, you know, in a job, and you've got that pressure of you thinking, well, actually, I need to deliver to prove that I'm right for this position, that can cause a lot of strain on the body, so to speak.

I think it's important for everybody to hear that. I mean, I think that's important for anyone, whether you're dyslexic or not, but especially people that are growing up in a school system that's not really geared towards them, and the damage that that does then get into the workplace and be able to manage that. At what point then, and I've watched some of your other interviews, I love them by the way, and you mentioned that there was a woman you were watching on television and she mentioned some of the similar characteristics that— can you tell us a little bit about that?

Absolutely, so prior to me having— that was a story around how I actually found out I was dyslexic. So prior to that, I managed to hold— I worked up the ladder, so to speak, and managed to get to a very senior position within retail. And I was being paid a great sum of money, and I was responsible for a very, very large turnover and a very large operation, which to this day I'm proud of what I've done. Then I kind of left that and I set up a couple of different businesses. But it was very early on that I was doing my own business and I was watching this news broadcast that we have in the UK. I think it was just a news broadcast and it's almost like a 15-20 minute slot.

Yeah.

And within that, they talk about the things that are going on in the local area. I was working on my laptop, beavering away, so to speak, and I had the TV on in the background, and I heard this interview. It was a lady being interviewed about her floristry business. It was one of those moments when you're just meant to hear this talk. She was asking about her business and entrepreneurship, and I was thinking, oh, I guess I'm an entrepreneur. I must— So I was kind of listening while doing something else. And then she said, you know, why did you set this business up? And she said, I set floristry up because I, I said I'm— I struggled at the start because I'm dyslexic. Um, I can't tell you how to spell some of the bouquets of flowers, but I can tell you in color, and I can tell you what they look like, and just by the smell I can do this. But please don't ask me to, to write out what the bouquets have in there because of my dyslexia. And she kept using this word dyslexia. And I didn't realize till afterwards that the actual whole documentary, the whole broadcast, was around her dyslexia. So they started asking about her business and some of the struggles that she has and some of the kind of things that she, how she kind of manages her dyslexia. And it was almost like the lady was interviewing me. And it was that moment when I thought, there's such similarities to what they're talking about. So I felt like a light bulb moment going off, and I remember kind of rewinding the show because it came up, you know, dyslexia, because I didn't even know how to spell it. I didn't really even know what the word entailed. So I went on to Google once I found out how to kind of spell dyslexia, and then that kind of changed my world, really, my perspective on things. I checked out the BDAs, the British Dyslexia Association, and I went on a kind of a bit of a journey, I guess, of just trying to find out what this was. And then that then led me to getting a test for dyslexia, which then led to almost, you know, quite a bit of time afterwards then being diagnosed with dyslexia and then later on ADHD.

We've got a question, but before I ask it, Darren, you know, the whole— my reason for doing this is to— the first is to let schools and teachers and administrators and parents know that we can teach the vast majority of children to read. That's number one. And that you get— when you get shoved to the side, damage is done.

Yes.

And, you know, that's You can hear it. I get— and why do we just shove people off? Because what happened to you in the 1980s is still happening in the 2020s.

Yes.

Not acceptable. Okay, so now why did I say that? That's my reason for doing it. And Chris's question is, what advice do you have for struggling students?

The biggest thing I could say is communication.

Okay.

Having— and I think, you know, you touched on it just now about having your support bubble around you and having people who can listen. The thing I wish I would have done, which I do now, I'm very open in the sense of if I need to learn something or if I'm struggling, then I talk. I talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And even when we were doing work with organizations, you know, a few years ago, We set up this thing called like coffee mornings, but it was almost like start conversation. I'm a massive advocate of having those conversations because we don't know what we need sometimes. We we can struggle with things. We can see things differently. We know with dyslexia it's on such a vast scale that my dyslexia is different to someone else's dyslexia. So we can't just pigeonhole. We can't just say okay so such and such has dyslexia. They have dyslexia.

Yeah.

Why don't you two talk? Then you're, you know, everything's sorted. Having just a conversation at home or with a friend or with a teacher or someone that you can just confide in, and it can just start with just such small little things going, I'm struggling with this, or I see the words differently, you know, and that tiny little conversation then leads We're not saying that from the off you need to start saying, oh, I've read this and I have this article and then you now need to read this book, you need to watch this video. That will come. If you have dyslexia, you have dyslexia and it's a journey. I'm still learning about my dyslexia now. I was diagnosed at 36, I'm 45 this year. I'm still learning best ways to kind of help and deal with my dyslexia.

Mm-hmm.

But it all starts literally just by having those small little conversations, because then it opens up to bigger conversations, and then you can have some of the support, you know, to help. And the first person you probably speak to probably has never even heard of the word dyslexia, and that's okay. But just by you talking about it opens you up to then start speaking to other people and other people and We're not saying you have to go straight off and have a test and speak to this and read a book and everything else. Just start small. Just speak to your, you know, people at home, brothers, sisters, friends, whoever it is. And, you know, the other thing is, it's not as bad as some people make out with dyslexia. It is a struggle, and don't get me wrong, but there are some very positive attributes which we tend to miss In some aspects, we tend to just focus on the struggles and the strains, but there are other elements. But I appreciate that the majority of things do— you do struggle with, and that's where those conversations can help.

So get support. Fine. Yeah, I love that. His next question is, what opinion do you have of the current school system's methods of helping students in need? I don't know if you want to go there.

That's quite— I must add, I'm not an educator in this sense, so I'm sure there's some incredible educators that could answer that question a lot better. But what I will say is, having worked with— I mean, I've worked, you know, even though I've not taken from the education system in the sense of grades and knowledge, from that, I am a massive advocate of education and learning. So I've gone back to my old school that I left with no grades, and I've done working one-to-one with students. I've done seminars, I've done assemblies, I've done business coaching, and I've spoken over the past 6 years to over 80,000 people, 80,000 students. And that was that element of showing people that With dyslexia, there are some, like I said, there are some positive attributes in there. With regards to the education system, I would just say having those conversations with parents and teachers may open up those conversations. I will always bang the drum for conversations because I just feel communication is the key to starting things off, but I know it's As a parent, it can be a very long process in schools, especially in the UK. I'm not too sure what it's like in the US, but in the UK, I know it can be a very, very long process. I hope that answers the question.

I think that's a brilliant answer because communication is key, you know, and it requires you then to not only— it's not just projecting it, it is reflecting on what you're thinking and how you're feeling and all that sort of components that Often hidden by poor behavior.

Absolutely. You know, when we— if I go back to my school days and they mentioned the unit, and they sent troubled children there, and, and don't get me wrong, when I went there it wasn't the nicest place. I mean, it was a freezing porter cabin in the middle of the school, and, you know, in the summer it was extreme heat and in the winter it's freezing cold. So, you know, you either bring a coat or you don't bring a coat. And it was— but you have an environment where it's so small, and then you've got 4 or 5 children in there, and there's no direction, there's nothing, you know. It's just— there's a couple of books to keep you active, you know, keep your mind kind of going. You know, this was pre-mobile phones.

Yeah.

You know, this was kind of, you know, you're in there and you're there, you know, 6 hours a day, you know, taking out your lunch and your other breaks. That's a long time to just be sat doing nothing. And You know, I always give this analogy that I feel like a sponge every single morning, and it's because I crave learning and I crave speaking to people and love stories. And I feel like I start the day with this crumpled-up sponge and it just releases and absorbs as much knowledge as I can. You take away a child's ability to learn at that early age, it does have a profound effect on them as they grow up. And for me, I felt like I missed so many years of learning. That's why I yearn now to try and learn as much as I can within reason.

And Isaac, how did— sorry. Yep, go ahead, Lisa.

Do you have another question? How did the school receive you when you went to speak to them about this? At least in the US, there's a big resistance the word dyslexia. How is it over there?

I think it was at the start when I reached out to the schools. I must say, when I went back to my actual school that was there when I attended the school, it had actually been bashed down and they rebuilt it as a brand new academy. But even still, there were still remnants of my old school. When I decided that I wanted to give back and go in and give a talk and try and see if I could help, I didn't even know if schools would offer this. Walking in and walking back into the gates of the school that you left with zero confidence and no qualifications, going in, I felt like a schoolchild again. I had to go to the desk reception there and I had to call for the headmaster who came out, and my body just— I felt it kind of go down and sort of inward, and I was almost kind of like this. So walking up to the gates quite confident, as soon as I saw the gates and walked in, I felt, you know, a little bit kind of, you know, because it was that element of the school. It was my old school.

Yeah.

When I first approached them, they— I said I wanted to go in as a about dyslexia, and they started saying, what do you do? And I said, you know, I've created a few businesses, and this and this. They said, okay, do that talk. And I said, well, okay, I can do the business talk, but ultimately it was me and my partner that started the businesses, and I'm dyslexic. I don't know, maybe that's got something to do with it. Yeah, yeah, just do that talk.

What?

No, the business talk. They'll be more inspired with the business talk. So I actually had to go into schools to start off with talking about business and entrepreneurship, yet I would always put a little twist and say, you know, I just want you to know that I'm dyslexic as well, so I'm a dyslexic business owner. And I actually got pulled up a couple of times in schools very early on saying, you know, why did you mention the dyslexia? And I said, because I am. You know, that's part of me. And then I think it was because they didn't really understand what was going on. They didn't really know how it would not benefit the students, but didn't really understand what angle I was coming in at. When I got more confident about it, I would either refuse to do the talk, and normally when I refused, they would kind of want you more in that sense. And because I didn't want to let the students down, I continued doing it. but then I would go in on maybe on the pretenses that I would be talking about business entrepreneurship, and then I would do the talk on business entrepreneurship and dyslexia. It then, I guess it was that little bit of cheekiness in there, but in all fairness, it was something, I was sharing a message, and I was helping, and it was, by the end of it, it was perceived really, you know, really well, and it helped. But that was the same when I moved on to start doing business shows. So when I would go to— I'd be booked as a speaker to do a business show in London, in Manchester, in Birmingham. When they would reach out to me, they say, can you do a business talk about this? And I say, yeah, yeah, but I also would like to talk about sex. Oh no, no, no, no, we don't want you to do that. We want you to do this. And this was probably like 6 years ago. So again, I had to go through the same process, and then it was a case of it's now. If you look, I mean, in the UK, there's loads of people talking. I mean, we're blessed in the sense of how many people talk about dyslexia in the UK and doing business talks around this. But we're talking like 6, 7, 8 years ago. It wasn't— you couldn't just phone up and say, can I come and talk to business owners about dyslexia? They wouldn't. They wouldn't have it.

That's brilliant. That's brilliant.

It tells me, you know, it's very interesting because they don't want my stories, the message I get. But anyway.

I just keep knocking on the doors.

I have to. I've got another question. Isaac's got a question. How can struggling people work for the best, work to the best of their abilities in industry like the gaming industry?

I'm always a big advocate in the sense of, like, when I've spoken to students before and we talk about what job it is that they want to do. So, I would always ask these questions. I love asking questions. I love talking to people. And I would say, you know, does anyone want to work for themselves? And some people would put their hands up. And you'd ask the question, do you want to just work in the UK? And you could see their kind of brains ticking, thinking, what? And you go, well, do you want a global business? Do you want to operate in America, Australia? And you could just see their faces kind of just almost these different ideas. And then I said, well, even if you set up a Shopify or an eBay or something like this and sold internationally, you've then got an international business. But we don't ask those questions because we don't sometimes think those broad things. We just think, actually channel in. I just want to work for this company and that's kind of where I want to be. So I would say having the aspirations and definitely at a younger age, you know, looking back, if I was in school again, I'd be writing to Richard Branson and asking him to work for Virgin. I'd be asking, I'd be finding the gaming company that I want to work for and even at age 10, I'd be writing to them every single week saying, let me know when there's a job available. Because the thing is, not many people are doing this. We have a system where we are told at a certain age that we go through this part of school, then we go for this part of education, then we do this education, and then we go into work, and now you're off, go and find your job. The pre-prepping and the pre-work between finding the interest— if you want to work in the gaming industry, what games do you like? How does it actually work? What do they pay? What do they look like? Literally, if that is your passion, absorb it. Try and download an app and start building an app. You can do these courses now. You almost want to get yourself into a position where the company is either kind of so annoyed with you that they'll take you on, or you've just got this So much interest in this company. I mean, if you look from a company's point of view, why wouldn't you want someone working for you that is so passionate and wants to work for you this much that they're going to be writing to you or they're going to be showing their CV, so to speak, 5, 6 years or 3 years or so before they can actually legally apply for that position? It's just— I'm just a big advocate of trying to play it forward and thinking forward when, you know, the job— again, it doesn't work so much if you want to be an astronaut and a pilot. You know, you have to go through those, uh, you know, those plans and the education and all these different things. But, but genuinely, I just think it's, it's really channeling and thinking, what does the process look like? How do I get that position? And also, what are their ethics within that company? Do they align with you? You know, do they— because what we want to do is, you know, the company I'm working with now aligns with my mission and everything that I'm doing, so I'm incredibly blessed and lucky because we will continue global awareness for dyslexia and helping people. So, but that's taken a long time to get to that stage.

Yes.

So I think The long answer to your question is just doing your research. And if you've got that passion, then the process, just find the process and find a way, find a way in.

That's super. Does that answer your question? We've got another question. Do you think that the prep work can be compressed time-wise for fulfilling our dreams? Like if we're approaching the age of 26 and have to start worrying about it, worrying about insurance and other adult matters. In the US, at 26, you lose health insurance. Okay.

Wow. I'm probably not 100% sure on the question. I do apologize. If there's another way I can kind of come in.

Do you think that the prep work can be compressed time-wise for fulfilling our dreams?

As in prep work, as in—

What do you mean, Xena? I don't know.

No, no, no, no. I probably— I still apologize if I'm not getting that question. If it can be—

Maybe, you know, maybe it's a thinking of, do you think this prep work, what you're saying, the the work you have to do in finding the process, can it be compressed? Really, you're saying you've got to start early.

No, but even if— I mean, keep going. If we're looking for a— if we're looking— so if we take it from a young point, a young, uh, say young student's point of view, and their dream is to be a fashion designer or to, you know, or whatever it is that they're doing, that, that element, I mean, that takes a lot of dedication. Okay, so if we're, say, you know, 14 years of age and we want to work for a certain company, you're talking years to put that dedication in. But it then just drives how much passion you've got and what it is, you know, that you want to do. But I'm a firm believer that regardless of whatever age there is, I mean, obviously there's a process of, you know, to go through and qualifications and things, but we shouldn't just automatically think, oh well, I didn't study that for school, going back to college or university, and I get it, financially that can be a real kind of struggle, but surely we just get one life, so to speak, and we just— why don't we just aspire to actually want to get ourselves in a position where we just have that opportunity to maybe work for that organization? And what you'll find is if Sometimes, I'm not saying that every single time you'll be able to get that organization, but it might lead you down another path where you might work for another organization, or you might set up your own business and rival that organization. I don't know, but the mind is beautiful in the sense of once we set these kind of goals and we start believing in ourselves, we can then— it just opens up so many different doors and those opportunities rather than just being tied That's brilliant.

That's brilliant. I love it. And you only get one life. Make the most of it. You're right. There's only one of you and it only comes around once. Another question.

Hold on.

And I'm struggling to read it. It's really small. Like trying out our interests. And Lois got it. Like it for, for whatever reason, we've been unable to Unable to externally express our interest.

Now we have months before there's more distracting stress involved.

Yeah, like for whatever reason we've been unable to externally express our interest. Now we have months before there's more distracting stress involved. I'm not sure what you're saying there.

I think if we take I don't think we realize how— if we take the school system, for instance, I don't think we realize how much of an opportunity we've got to just learn. So, because when we, you know, that's all we kind of really need to do, you know, within the school. And then we come home and obviously we grow and be social and everything else. But I get it, if you're then kind of more of a mature student or an adult student, or you're going back, there are stresses and strains and there are pressures because if you've got children, you have to have a job and then study and these can affect your finances but also can affect your mental health as well and the struggles. And I firmly believe it's just sometimes it's easy for me to just say, oh well, if you've got a goal and work to it, But it's being realistic and setting yourself parameters of what you can physically achieve within that time. If you have a young family and you've got bills to pay and everything, we're not saying quit your job and go off and do this. But we're also not saying that you need to complete this course in 6 months or a year. It could be a case of, well, actually it could be a 2-year course or a 3-year course. It's something to kind of just continuously work towards because within those things that you're doing and those learnings and education or whatever it is you're trying to do, what you don't realize is it's not just always about the books you're learning and the knowledge. It's the confidence and it's so many other things that is giving you that ability. You will naturally push your shoulders out and be a little bit more confident. You will have more knowledge to bring to the table when you're speaking to people. You will naturally feel more confident to do these other things because you're invested in yourself and you're learning or whatever it is that you're doing, and it's— there's so many different things that it affects, and we don't, you know, we just think it's a one thing. I need to learn, get the qualifications, I get a job, but there's so much more facets to it.

You're right, and it's not just about the grades, it's what you're learning along the way.

Absolutely, and the goal I always believe it's not the destination, it's the journey. I look back on some of the businesses that we've grown and we've done.

Thank you.

But realistically, when I look back on them, I remember some of the earlier days when it was more of a struggle, but it was more fun because it was very hands-on. It was very much, you're out in the thick of it, you're doing all this, rather than when it grew and you've got all of this team and everything else, which was great as well. But we just naturally think to ourselves, the destination, I need to get to that, I need to earn that, tick, done. But the journey is so much more better than the destination, unless you're going to, you know, the Maldives or something, then the destination— Definitely better than the plane journey. But generally, we, as you know, As adults, we forget to have fun and we don't tend to live in the moment. And yes, we tend to always think, you know, when I can get that or what I can do.

Yes.

And, you know, it's hard to switch between, I know, but some of those elements can— the destination can be a lot of fun as well as the journey.

Darren, is it fair to say that we shouldn't fear failure and enjoy the ride?

I think failure is— it has a— I'd love to have— Yeah, you're absolutely— I'd love to hear your previous guest's thoughts on this and thoughts on fear because as humans, I guess, is it the fact that we fear failure or we fear other people's views and opinions on our own failings? That would be an interesting concept because Because if we, you know, I've succeeded in loads of stuff and I've failed in loads of stuff, but sometimes the failures outweigh some of the successes because I feel, you know, why did I fail at that?

Yes.

What do people think of me? And, you know, am I not very good at this? But I love the fact that I've failed at quite a lot of things because I've learned so much from it. Don't get me wrong, I don't like failing every single day. Genuinely, if you can— if you failed at something, then at least you've given it a try and you've put yourself out there, and that's one of the hardest things to do. It really is a tough, you know, it's a tough situation sometimes to get yourself out of that comfort zone. You know, I remember when I recently started doing the, you know, the interviews, the Neurodiversity Stories, and that was on a LinkedIn Live. Purely, I got— I applied to have LinkedIn Live, and I got it, and I got it about a year ago. And I was sitting on it, and I was thinking, what can I do with it? And I hadn't done many live broadcasts before that. In fact, I think I'd done one Instagram Live. That was it. So I put this show together really quite quickly. I got someone to be interviewed, and I hit that live button. And if you ever watched the first episode, I'm like, like talking like this because I'm so nervous because I'm trying to push all these buttons and words are moving around the screen and things. But 30 shows in, as in what we've done, you know, what I've done, I'm really proud of that. But the fear of, is anyone going to watch it? Is anyone going to do this? What happens if a troll comes up? Or what happens if this happens? Or what, you know, if there's a technical error? And all those things that was buzzing around my mind, you know, I'm proud of the, you know, what we created and the stories we can now share continuously to all these people. That's just one little thing, but I think if you can have something that you've either failed or you feel a little bit fearful from, then you've gone, at least you've gone on a bit of a journey.

Cool.

Xena has in, I've heard that we fear success, that we fear both. Success and failure, and I feel it leads to stagnation for so many people. She says, I hope people watch this.

I think it's a funny thing, isn't it? Success and where we lie, you know, to want to achieve something, and then what do we do afterwards? You know, I look at some of these you know, multi-billionaires like Elon Musk and, you know, Richard Branson and, and the Amazon chap, um, Jeff Bezos. Um, and there are other entrepreneurs available for, you know, um, but generally their successes— I mean, you're talking of success business-wise at a level which we can't even profound. I mean, it's just insane. You know, but there comes a point where, you know, when is enough is enough? And what do they do then to get that kind of achievement? You know, and now obviously we're, you know, we're going out of Earth and we're challenging, you know, space flights. Uh, and it's just sometimes it's just— I love the fact that I'm always working towards something, but I appreciate everything that I have now.

Yeah.

Now, and I'm not saying that you can't have aspirations to, you know, that kind of level, but sometimes I think success, it can just, you know, you can always have that hunger of wanting more and more and more. And it works for some people and other people, but there's also a flip on that. If you've got so much success, the fear of failure is so, so massive because, you know, the public shame or whatever it is I mean, it's not— if one of those business people lost something now, all the press would probably be talking about their failures, but what they've done and they've achieved— and I think sometimes that kind of happens and it does get led by fear.

Lisa, do you want to say anything? Because I've got to say thank you to Xena and Chris and Isaac for all their comments and all that they— and being part of this show, because they are fantastic. And I really appreciate it. Lisa, what have you got to say? And where do you find us?

This was, this was excellent. Um, I took away so many interesting things, and I really thank you for talking with us. Um, I can relate on a lot of different levels with a lot that she said. So, um, thanks for your time. I mean, your story is fantastic. And, um, where can we find you? Because I'd like to see, see some more too.

Yeah, so, so, um, if you just go on to The best thing to do is find me on LinkedIn, so it's Darren Clark, and then there's a little globe emoji next to the name Darren Clark, so Darren Clark without an E. That's probably the easiest place to find me. I'm always on LinkedIn, and I'm always sharing things around neurodiversity and dyslexia and everything out there that we're doing. I am on the Observatory Facebook as well, under Darren Clark, but yeah, just feel free to To, you know, to connect. We're also doing our Go Red campaign at the moment for dyslexia. So if you, you know, hashtag Go Red for Dyslexia, so please feel free to get involved in that. We're, you know, we're turning the world red for dyslexia all over October.

Fantastic.

Very good. And I'm Lois Letchford. You find me at loislatchford.com. On my website. I'm the author of the book Reversed: A Memoir, where I tell the story. I tell Darren's story with a different ending and a different middle, but how they could have been so similar. And that's what distresses me. Learning to read should never depend on luck.

Yeah, I agree.

So, and this is, um, When Learning Is Trauma. Thank you. I've got to hit Smash like, hit subscribe, hit the bell for notifications. Thank you, Isaac and his buddy Chris, because without them, this show would not happen. And share the channel with friends and family and with those with dyslexia who benefit from hearing our stories. Anything else? Find our links. My book is available on Amazon. Audiobook is available. Where can what? I can't read that.

On your website, you'll find your book and your lessons.

You'll find books and poems on my website and lessons. Anything else? That's it. We've said, where can we find Lisa? We know Lisa's on Facebook.

I am on LinkedIn, but I'm not on it a lot. I'll have to get on there more and also Instagram. And YouTube on Monday Afternoon with Lois.

And I just appreciate having Lisa as a buddy because Darren, I couldn't have done this on my own. And having Lisa is fantastic. You know, we can share ideas, resources, and all the rest of it. So thank you very much. Do you have an Instagram account? I'm being asked. And Twitter?

Yeah, I do. It's, um, Instagram is Darren Clark. I think it's Darren Clark Neurodiversity. Um, in fact it is.

It's good.

Darren underscore Clark.

Because I looked for it today and didn't find it. And neurodiversity.

Fantastic.

We'll find it. And you click through and then you'll be turning up.

Lovely.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And next week, next week, where's my next Next week we're speaking to Jean Barlow, also from the UK, and she is, she's a tutor. Now where have I lost my list? Anyway, can't find it, lost it. Thank you, we'll talk to you next week. Join us, we have a few more in this season and then we'll close up in November. Thank you so much, Darren, for your time.

My pleasure.

And for being with us and for sharing our story.