When Learning is Trauma: Dr Neil Alexander Passe, Lisa Mccarty, Lois Letchford

Welcome, welcome. I will introduce you as Dr. Neil Passé first up, author of the book Dyslexia and Mental Health, and we're delighted to have you here tonight— today. And we're joining us for the series When Learning Is Trauma. With me is Lisa from Pennsylvania. And what did you say, Lisa?

I'm from Pennsylvania. I'm a nurse and a mother and a wife of dyslexic people. And I work with Decoding Dyslexia and the PBIDA and a lot of other groups.

And you're a nurse with—

Well, I work in an inpatient recovery center.

Perfect. And I'm Lois Letchford, author of the book Reversed: A Memoir, and I'm a literacy problem solver. And we've got Dr. Neil Alexander Pass from London, UK joining us as they lock down.

Yeah.

We're talking about personal career— personal and career growth following trauma. Dr. Alexander Pass experiences dyslexia and has over the past 20 years specialized in the emotional experience of having a learning difference. He's published 10 books and 10 peer-reviewed papers in the field of dyslexia, looking at correlations between mental health Creativity, parenting, and marriage. He gained his PhD in 2018, the same year as my son, in investigating dyslexia, traumatic schooling, and post-school success. His current focus is with the Biability theoretical model for dyslexia and uses a post-traumatic growth concept to understand how many individuals with dyslexia can be successful despite or because they experienced traumatic schooling in— traumatic schooling. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for taking the time with us.

Sure.

It's a pleasure.

Tell us what brought you into the field, even though we've got a bit of an idea from your bio.

Okay, what brought me into the field is I was, I think, traumatised myself being a young boy with dyslexia. I wasn't diagnosed till I was about 12 or 13 years old, and I wanted my own access to school with very similar models model to many young people with dyslexia. I couldn't do the reading and writing, and I found my salvation— art. I was really good at art, and I left school with very few paper qualifications. qualifications to my name. And I went to art college for 5 years. And I gained, gained a degree as a graphic designer. And I then obviously had a very nice 20-year career as a graphic designer. But during it, I, I got married, and I wanted to be prepared for my own kids. So I went back and did an MPhil, a research master's, and following that, I wanted to research the human side of having dyslexia. And that was fairly new then in the 19—

1980s.

'90s, I think. 1990s. Oh, I think I did my MPhil when I was 30, my PhD when I was 50, so around '90, I think. Yeah. I wanted to do the human side of it, to really make it sense of it for me. Around 2000, I wanted—

2000?

Yeah, around then I wanted to go back and to delve deeper, and I changed my research to speak to others like myself, to really answer the question, what was I normal? And so that just led to a large research project and my first book, which looked into depression. And it was all about the, as we'll see, hidden sorrow. And that all of my books reflect me. Okay, so the book about creativity is working out whether dyslexics are creative. The book about parenthood, which is this book here with the Scrabble front, is really about making sense, sense of my own, I guess, marriage and having kids. I've got Got 4 children, but none of them are dyslexic.

Dyslexic.

And that, for me, allowed me to delve more into my own personal story of, really, a parent will want a child to be like them. Okay, and where they are not like you, you then— all of my planning was to do research to be prepared for my own kids. I was sure that they would all be dyslexic, so I did research, and then they turned out to not be, and it's like an alien world for me. Yeah, it is like Spock. Yeah, like Spock. I am the alien within my family. Okay, so I've seen other families where they have the father is dyslexic and several kids are, and they've got this hidden language. It's like a Harry Potter world where where some of them are within the magical world and some of them are not. And that hidden language.

Yes.

But that my— I felt these outsider in some parts to my own kids is because they are more like their mother, who is quite, you know, straight A, and they love school. and they show me their school grades, just grade cards, and it's like A's, and I bring out mine and it's like D's and E's, and they go, yeah, but that's just not normal. I mean, it's— so all of the books are very much about my own story, so that led me to— look at mental health, which we'll be talking about more, but it really is about making sense of that trauma.

Yeah.

Okay, and really asking why there is this paradox of people that are highly successful, but they are still traumatised. from their MC schooling. Okay, and so it was trying to make sense. And so the book, the Successful Dyslexic, looked at 2 groups, one of them who were successful, and another group who were less successful, to find the the common areas and to find the differences.

Yeah.

And really, the trauma was still there. It was still really raw, you know. The people who were doing well in life said, I was driven to it by my school trauma. I will go back to school driving a Rolls-Royce to prove them wrong. Okay, and it's that chip chip on their shoulder that drove them there. And they still obviously have the stories of being bullied by the teachers, and that's their drive. But the key was amazing, that it was their narrative. The difference between those who were successful to those who were not was their narrative, how that schooling was. All of the— both of them had trauma, but one group rewrote their childhood trauma to be a positive, you know.

Yeah.

And this is all about the supposed traumatic growth. It's like the vase, you know, the the theory of post-traumatic growth is a broken vase, or vase, you would say.

Yeah, vase.

Right, okay, we will say vase. Bagel, although there are differences, but a broken vase, okay? You either can try and put it back together but fail because you won't have a perfect vase again, or you create something new from it, a mosaic, a piece of art. So it really is about using that trauma in a positive way, and rather than trying to rebuild and obviously have this perfect childhood dream, it is about using it and saying, right, I've had this trauma, and this trauma had led me somewhere. It had taught me that failure was something positive, okay, that you can learn through failure. You learn far more through that failure and that trauma. Therefore, I mean, they, they say that people who are millionaires or billionaires, their first 3 or 4 ventures fail.

Yeah.

Okay, all of them failed, the first few. Okay, you don't make it to your 4th or 5th venture. The people who are dyslexic, dyslexics have dealt with failure and the emotional side of it early on as a child. You know, they, they didn't— they, they were Facing failure on a daily basis, hourly basis within school, and therefore they, they learn to— it is nothing to be afraid of. Okay, now an adult who will fail in their venture for their first or second time will be devastated. They can't move on.

Okay.

Emotionally, it's so strong for them because that they can't move on. And that trauma as an adult is far harder to deal with than as a, um, seizure child. So it really is about that, that, um, using that trauma in a positive way.

Positive way.

And I'm fascinated by, by that. Okay, and that, that is where, where my new research is looking at. It's about Well, I've, I've, I've dealt within dyslexic adults, and I'm now delving with other groups with hidden disabilities to find out whether they are still driven through that trauma.

That's great.

And I'm talking to people with type 1 diabetes, with Epilepsy, with ME, with— who are sight impaired. And all these people are amazing, and they are successful because they found that they are not— they see their— they see themselves as being different. They don't see themselves as being disabled.

Good.

People who are dyslexics, you could say they look normal and they act normal, so therefore they get through the door, okay, for jobs. But it's within the jobs where they will struggle with their reading and writing and grammar. So it is that hidden disability which I'm finding are sharing this post-traumatic growth.

Yeah.

Neil, can I ask a question? That's fascinating. Some of these books that you've written, I have to read all of them actually. But for the people who don't succeed, what do you find is the difference? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of variables, but a lot of kids really don't get to that I'm going to prove them wrong and make a success of themselves. And we know that a lot of dyslexic learners have higher incidence of anxiety and depression and some other problems. What is that thing that makes it or breaks it, would you say?

Right, I mean, the book, the book was looking at keys. It's very much looking at the keys, the keys for to unlock looked at potential, and there were several keys. One of them was a parent that praised them for their effort, not the achievement. Okay, so your son comes in and they've got a D for their homework, but they worked hard. You praise the effort.

Effort.

You don't praise the achievement. It's not about A's. It's about how hard you work, and also it is about, as a child, finding something you are good at.

Okay.

So parents must help their child to find that key. And one of the keys for me, my key was art, okay, because it allowed me to find a career and a future and gain a degree. I mean, I left school with, in my days it was called O-levels, and I left with 2, okay? And that's compared to my own kids who have left with like 10, okay? And 10 good grades, and my ones were like Cs.

Yes.

I got an A in art and a B in religious studies. Okay, you can't get far in life with that normally. Okay, when my kids have like A's in triple science and maths and English language and literature, to leave with very few qualifications and to be a success in life. it needs that drive, okay? And that is all about passion. I found my passion early on and that drove me, okay? And it is about helping your child to find that key, to find what they're good at. And it could be— Except in my book, I found people who who as a child knitted and they made knitted purses that they then began a business from that, okay, early on. So something that they were good at, that they could find a purpose and a value in life, okay. So rather than thinking I'm rubbish at everything, yes, it is like this is something that I could earn money with.

Yeah.

Yeah, so the key is a parent who will praise effort, having someone there who will push you, believe in you, and that's finding something you're good at. Those things are really powerful, you know, and every parent should be able to give that.

Yeah.

Okay, and what happens with the many dyslexics in prison is that they were all— they always believed that they were stupid, that they were worthless, that they had nothing to give to society, and it really is that they haven't found their key, they haven't found what they're good at. And also, I mean, schools will generally say, look, you're leaving school with very few paper qualifications, go for an office job, it's safe, you know, and that is the worst place that you will want someone who is dyslexic, for them to file, to put things in filing cabinets or data in a tree, you know, it's about helping them to find the right jobs for them and the right careers.

Yeah.

And that really is that if you are great at surfing or skateboarding, you know, and that drives you to read and to find out and research and to create a business from it, Yeah. So it really comes from that passion.

Yeah, I was just going to say passion and finding the strengths seems to be so important. And a lot of our young people and people who are adults just never got a chance to find that.

Yeah.

And yeah, I think that's fascinating. It's funny to me that the reason you got into researching all this was to help your own family, and then you wound up instead helping everybody else. So we thank you for that. But we had some questions about, um, we've noticed recently on where I'm on Facebook a lot, and a lot of people will say things like, oh, you know, you're being dramatic when you say that the dyslexics, um, tend to have a higher incidence of winding up in jail or having substance use problems or having suicidal ideation. And I don't see— people seem to really not quite understand the depths of what can happen when you're an unsupported dyslexic learner. In your research, what do you think is the reasoning that we are not taking this seriously enough?

Okay, I mean, one of the first books looked at— I mean, I tried to find a sample of 30 dyslexics, adults, and I tried to find 15 who were depressed and 15 who were not depressed. And I gave up at 22 of trying to find those who were not depressed because every single time I tried to find someone who wasn't depressed, I found, I found that they were depressed.

Yes.

Okay, so the— so my sample for the book was 22 who were depressed and 7 who were not, is because it was so hard to not find, find those without any depressive symptoms.

Yeah.

But within the book, there were a lot, a lot there who had, had self-harmed, obviously attempted suicide, and, and the common thing for, for them was they I mean, there was one guy who said, when, just when he was a 14-year-old struggling in school, that he dreamed of driving. And I went, wow, that's a really positive thing. He said, no, I dreamed to drive because I wanted to crash and die. Okay? Okay. It's because his life, he felt, was— he was worthless.

Yeah.

There was no value. There was nothing else he was good at. And the self-harming is very much about control, you know, when it's something that you're doing to your own body. It's your choice.

Yeah.

You're making that choice for your own body. Okay. The highs are about feeling alive. I mean, I used to— I've got got a stammer, okay? And with the team, I used to go— okay, within the UK, you are allowed to drink before you are 21. So that's why. So you would go out as a late team and you would go out to the pub and you would drink and you would feel that it would numb you. You wouldn't— I didn't stammer because I was a little bit drunk, or wait, a little bit— I wasn't high, but it felt, it felt like that, that, uh, I don't see high, high sort of level. So it didn't feel different. Okay, and drugs can lead you to feel normal because it has removed all that pain, all that feeling worthless. So, so it does give back certain out of control. And the— I mean, the crime side is very much about they are leaving school without any paper qualifications to their name. All their friends are going out, having a nice time, having nice things, getting jobs, and they can't.

Yeah.

They can't get a job. So, so they are really great with their hands and their speech, okay, and they've got the gift, gift, gift of the gab, and they will find a way of creating a career or a way of making money through those hands-on kinesthetic skills, and that, that is crime. That they turn to crime because they want what their peers are getting. They want a normal life, and turning to crime allows them that. So really, say we backtrack and find out something that they're good at and that drives them, then they've got a means to not Turn to a crime.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's the sad thing. And when they go through prisons in the UK and they test and they find more than 50% of the kids with a learning difficulty that no one's diagnosed in the schools, So they've turned from thinking that they are thick to finding out that there was a problem that really someone else should have found.

Yeah.

And so my work in schools now, and I run a large MOC special needs team within schools, is to help diagnose, to help help to, to find those, those kids who think they're stupid, but really there is a learning barrier.

Yeah, yeah. I, I just, I'm just flabbergasted because we know all this. We know, you know, we know when we don't fit normal. and you don't learn to be like others, that's what you do think. And as an adult dyslexic, I'm sitting there talking to my sister and I made a mistake and I said, well, I'm stupid. And she said, Lois, why do you say that? Because that's the voice that's being said the whole life. This is why you can't do it.

Because it went in early on and it stuck, okay? And you bought into that because it gave you a reason you were looking for a reason why you struggled, and you were told by someone who was bigger than you, or a teacher, or parents said, you know, you're stupid, you know.

Yeah.

And it really is. It's Martin Seligman, Professor Martin Seligman, uh, has written loads of books books about learned helplessness, and it really is the way that you fix it is by being specific. The feedback that you will give is specific. When a child says, I'm rubbish at maths, you know, and parents say this a lot, a load of parents say, I just don't get maths.

Yeah.

Rubbish at maths. And what Martin Seligman says, you be specific. The feedback should be specific. Parents' feedback should be specific. It's not you're rubbish at maths, at all maths, okay? You struggle with, let's say, algebra. You're great at times tables, you're great at shapes, is that you can do various different things adding or subtraction, you just struggle with empty algebra. If you are specific with the feedback as a parent to your child, your child will not say, I'm stupid, or I don't get maths. They will turn around and say, yes, I struggle with empty algebra. Okay, I'm not thick, I just struggle on specific things.

Yeah.

It's not global, It is specific feedback.

That, yeah, that's fascinating. Lisa, have you got another question? Because this is your field.

Yeah, I actually just wanted to say a quick thing about the math. And it's funny because you mentioned Neil being a graphic designer. I have 2 parents who are artists and I'm not at all. And my mother was a graphic designer. She's retired now. My dad was a photographer, both dyslexic, very creative people, but she struggled in school. where she was put in the dummy math class and the dummy reading class, and she always felt stupid. And she makes a point to say, you know, I was great when it came to geometry. She was great with shapes and things like that, but she struggled with arithmetic. She struggled with algebra. And her teachers thought— and I'm not trying to bash teachers— but her teachers thought she was just supposed to be in the dummy math.

Right.

So she was never challenged or given an idea that she would be better at something else. And she went through her whole entire school career feeling like she was dumb in math and reading. And then she excelled, of course, when she got into the professional world as a graphic designer. So I think it's real important. And you work with teachers, it sounds like, to help them understand these learners. And I think we need more of that so that the teachers understand they might struggle in some area, but not all areas, that they're not stupid.

Absolutely.

And we really need that. We really need more of that.

Your parents found out fairly early on that they were good at the visual arts, and that's great. Many— I mean, I did research trying to find out whether dyslexics are creative, whether that's a skill that they've got. And every single test I tried to use was written. Okay, so every single way of measuring it is about words and reading.

Yes.

So therefore, it is no wonder there are no tests to show that they are su— superior with the, with just being creative. The, the Guilford test, okay, the Guilford test of creativity is how, how many uses are there for a pencil?

One.

Okay, test of creativity. Okay, now say you give them the test the way it is, they have to read the question and write down every single answer, so therefore you are creating a barrier here.

Yes, yes, yes.

Something they struggle to write down, the spelling, okay. If you get the same test as a visual, yeah, okay, and ask them to say it, they will come out with some amazing things. So it is all about how, how you, um, see, test, test it.

Okay. That blows my mind. Yeah, that's really cool. And here's another fun story that I have very quickly. Um, over last weekend, I met a fellow who was a carpenter, and his entire family were— they were all carpenters. And I said something about being, uh, an artist, and he thought that artists just meant Paintings. So he said, oh no, I'm not an artist. You know, I'm— but he is an artist. You know, to create something out of wood, like he just didn't understand that his talent was being creative and in this visual arts type of setting. But he didn't realize that as a talent. And I think a lot of parents and kids will struggle and say, well, I can't find my kids' talent. They're not good at anything, or we don't know what it is, but it's something. And it might have to do with the way they're thinking of it. They themselves might not realize that the thing that they are innately good at, other people might not be. So I just had to, to give that quick story because I was floored when he said he wasn't an artist. And I said, sure you are an artist, that's, that's what that is.

Also, it's about valuing your own skills.

Yes.

Okay. I mean, 10, just 10 years ago when I was going for redundant from my role as a project manager designing travel brochures. I wanted to be a music teacher and my wife said, you're crazy, you're good at graphics, you're good at visual, why go into a field that you are going to really struggle with?

Okay.

And I didn't value my own skills. Okay, I thought, oh yeah, it's easy, you know, graphics and design. Yeah, it comes easy to me. I would do it to the side, and I went into a field where I wasn't suited to. Okay, so it is again about valuing the skills you have. Okay, because I have to see it, but you will reject it, okay? And parents also must value their kids' skills, you know, because if it isn't about reading and writing, they won't give it a value. They won't see being amazing at skateboarding or graffiti painting— I mean, I've got a I have a cousin in Toronto in Canada who is a graphic— he's a graffiti artist, and this guy is amazing. He will paint cars, he will paint nightclubs, he is now doing furniture, and it's about developing that skill and finding your niche. So if you find your niche, and look, your parents supporting that niche, you know, and that's crucial. The parents must value what they see. If it— even if it isn't about reading and writing, if it's something that they have a passion about, something that they feel good, good about. Because in school they will feel rubbish about their day, about their learning, and they will come home and they will go out and they will spend hours with their mates riding bikes or skateboarding or basketball or running teams or playing the stock market or various things. All those things have a huge transferable value. So if a kid is struggling to read and you give him Shakespeare, he will reject it. He won't read. Okay.

Yeah.

So you find that the kid is brilliant at skateboarding or baseball, okay, you find out their favourite player, you find, you get books about them, okay, comic books, yes, comic books about them or something that they want to read about them to find out more about them. It's that path, okay.

Yeah.

It's about using those those passions to drive them to read, to write, to spell, okay? And they will be the school's expert in that, okay?

Yeah.

That gives them a feel-good value, you know? They feel good because they are— they know everything about that. No one else knows so much about about that, that baseball player. Okay. Yeah. They've got self-worth.

Yeah.

That self-worth will drive them.

Yeah.

You use that self, that self-worth.

Yeah.

It's so valuable.

I thought what you said about the testing was so interesting because you're right, we can't really test creativity the same way we can test reading scores and things like that. And I know that Lois's passion is how you teach a kid is so important.

But what you just said is how I took my son Nicholas from the bottom to read, you know, finding that passion and then tapping into his curiosity, you know, and they worked together and to see a phenomenal brain in spatial awareness, which hadn't been—

Right, yeah.

But, you know, you bring out the point, what's the first thing we do to identify a child with learning disability? We give them an IQ test, reading and writing.

Yes, you're giving them the wrong test.

Yes.

We're testing them the wrong way.

Yes, yes.

And therefore, they will— we are setting them up to, to fail.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

Yeah.

I live with it.

Yes, yes. Well, we We are surrounded by words, okay, and what I do in school is I get teachers to grade the oral feedback within lessons as much as the written, yeah, okay, because some kids are going to be great verbally, yeah, to debate and argue and to talk about the different worlds of wars and why they happen and politicians. Some kids are going to be great verbally and some of them will be great written, okay, and it's about removing that barrier, okay. You find a way that they can succeed and feel good about their knowledge because they are both clever, It's just one of those struggles to say it out loud in class, and another one was the struggle to just to write it down.

Yeah.

And that is very much about where the school-based trauma comes from. You know, in schools, okay, we are setting our kids up to fail in some ways, okay. And they feel stupid, and they feel traumatized.

Yeah.

And that trauma, that early trauma is so deep, so deep inside you, you know, that trauma of being seen to be on the stupid table, okay, of your class to teacher making fun of you not reading the word sounds correctly, and that moves into the playground. Your mates begin to then take the mickey.

Yeah.

Now, say you struggled in class and you were brilliant at football, you wouldn't have a problem because you would have that value of being— of playing football, you know, of your mates seeing you as being really clever on the pitch. Okay, but it really is about that early trauma can drive you. But the question is, if that drive is what is needed, are we doing young people with dyslexia a disservice by not giving them that virtual trauma? And that, that is a really difficult question.

Say that again, let's make sure we get it right.

Quite, it's quite hard. Okay, if the drive to do well post-school is school-based trauma, And we try to fix things in school by giving them everything that they need, they're not going to be traumatised. Does that mean that they will not be successful post-school? Are we denying them that, that post-school success?

Wow.

And that's a real Tough one. Yes, we want the best for our kids. We want to save our kids from going through, through that trauma. But it's that trauma that drives us.

I can't even answer that. Well, you can't, because I, you know, I look at what happened to my son who was so isolated and think, why didn't the school say this is not right? Why did I leave him sit there every day to be physically and socially isolated every minute of the day? And now as an adult, he says, I can't remember. And he actually said, when mum talks about that, didn't happen to me, that happened to someone else.

Because he rewrote the narrative. He rewrote it because that allows him to be successful. in life because he's rewritten his narrative. His childhood has driven him, but he doesn't— he's saying that he's successful now because of it, okay? Rather than saying, I, I'm in prison because of it, he's saying that he didn't— it's as if he hasn't got a poor me, okay?

Yeah.

If you have a poor me narrative, There is one way that it goes. It goes down. Okay, so if you change, change that narrative and say it's driving me, you will go up. And that narrative is crucial.

We have a couple questions. Can you see that, Lois?

Yeah, which one do you want to start with, Lisa?

Let's start with Christopher asks, what are your thoughts on using digital learning tools such as educational games and reading assistance tools to help children with learning disabilities?

I think that games, games are brilliant, and I think that for me to write books, if it wasn't for Word and a spell checker, I wouldn't have written books. I think, I think that the ability to get kids to type fast and to play games, like typing games, allows them a means to get their thoughts down. So typing-based games are really great. And it is, yeah, no, games are a really positive way. I mean, apps, At school, we've— I bought my— since I saw it for the last 15 years and never bought it, and we bought it during lockdown. And it's a game called Bananagrams. Okay. And it is like Scrabble but without the board. And that's brilliant. I'm a religious Jew, so on the Sabbath we can't write and we can't play games and use phones, so we play games, and that's been a brilliant way. And I've used it in a school, and that is a great way of developing spec spanning and making and coming up with divergent solutions. So games are brilliant.

There's another question also from Christopher, and he wants to know, he says, what would you say is the most important thing for parents and teachers to know about dyslexia and the effects that it has on a child's learning experience?

I think, I think it's about making them aware of the emotional effects of failing within lessons, of getting things wrong. Most kids have good lessons and bad lessons. No, they have loads of great lessons— no, they will have loads of good lessons, a few great, and a very few bad lessons. Someone who is dyslexic in school—

Dyslexic.

have all bad lessons and maybe in art or drama they will shine. So it's making them aware that these kids are going through their whole day and they are failing on an hourly basis. And then the crime, the crime of it is that when they are diagnosed and they think, right, We give them more support. Well, let's find the time within the school day.

Yes.

You can't take them out of English or maths or science because they're cores.

We take them out of—

Easy! Let's remove them from art, let's remove them from PE, from drama because they don't count, okay? Those are the 3 subjects those kids can do well in and they shine in and they feel great in, okay? Yeah, and so the idea— so, so a teacher should be aware, take out all those core subjects, yeah, and leave them the ones that they can feel good, yeah, about, about themselves. So it's the hourly failure.

Yeah, yeah, I love it.

I wish we could talk for another 5 hours. I, I have loads of questions and, and that sort of thing. Can, can we switch into talking about the adult dyslexic Can I just digress for just a second?

Sure.

Because that's my passion, um, the, the field that I work the most in now.

Yes.

Um, but in this Dyslexia and Mental Health book, I, I love this. And, um, so, so what would you say— well, I have a couple questions. What— first, why do you think that in the, um, counseling world we don't have a lot of, um, a lot of this knowledge isn't really into the counselor's hands? So your book, Dyslexia and Mental Health, you did a lot of talk about psychology and things like that. Why do you think this isn't really in the hands of the people that need it? The psych— the psychologists, the counselors, the psychoanalysts, these types of people. What would you say is the—

Right. So, so, so the foreword to the book is written by someone called Penny And I'm seeing Aston, okay, who is dyslexic, who is an MC counsellor, okay. So she runs services which are counselling by dyslexics for dyslexics, and there's a crucial part to this. The reason why It's so vital is because only someone who is dyslexic can truly get it, can truly get the failure through at school, where a normal counsellor will see it as a small bit, a small— it's not even relevant, you know. Okay, you had difficulty in school, Yeah, but it isn't a major part. Let's delve, just delve and see somewhere else. Okay, so it really is about knowing that it's one of the linchpins, you know, it's the thing that binds their lives together, the school failure, you know, to not have that self-worth, you know, to— to not see a future for every single person, from, from your, your parent to your grandparent to your teacher. Everyone who will— who you will look, look up to is giving you the same story, is that you must be stupid.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

It's inbred. Okay. The reason why they don't see it is because they've never lived through it themselves. Okay, the closest thing that I found to the trauma is because I, I was trying to, trying to find with the post-traumatic growth, what, what is the, the closest thing to, um, see, having it really early on? Okay, through your schooling. And the only thing was the Holocaust survivors, because it was the one group where it went on for so long and it happened during their schooling. Okay, and that is that deep trauma.

Right.

Okay, and it really is so vital. And so So really, CBT, which is what they try and treat with, the therapist is trying to change the way that you see things. But if you don't see that dyslexia is that core part, you're not really fixing things.

That's fascinating because I've always said that about teachers, that for the most part teachers get into teaching because they did well in school, rather than dyslexic people getting into teaching, because probably the last place they want to spend their adult lives in their profession is in school. But I never really thought of it from a counselor point of view, and I think that the more people are being diagnosed or understanding dyslexia, this is going to be a huge opening for dyslexic counselors to open practices and help dyslexic people, but I never considered it from that. Thank you for answering that.

That's fantastic. But within school, the people that go into special ed, or, or in my field, SEN, special educational needs, are people that want to go in back into school and to fix things. They see that it was wrong for themselves. They want to go into school and fix things. Okay, so they want to go back in. And for me to, to go back, back in to, to train as an MC teacher, I made good, good use of the MC counselling services within my, my university because I wanted to delve deeper. I was placing myself back into somewhere of trauma. Okay. And that's, and that's mad. You don't want that. You know, why, why on earth would you want to go back to a school, in a school place where you—

Fire.

Can smell, smell that? I mean, post-traumatic growth disorder. You've got for, for people who are dyslexics and their original trauma was in primary school, and they go back for their own kids, or they try to go back for their own kids, and they smell the sickly floor cleaner, or they see the small chairs and they see the work being put up on, on walls.

Okay.

And they're made to sit there in those small chairs with the teacher hearing about their child who's going through the same thing as them, and they want to shout out and say, you don't get it! Okay? So it's a— So placing yourself in the shoes of one of these people from my book, loads of them don't go into school for their own kids. The men mainly, I think, they will find a good reason to not go in for their kids' parents' evenings because they just can't face it. And some of them cry, cry in school, and they will go once and never again.

Yeah.

And you ask them why, and you will see it is like once their parent, They tell me the story is that they went into school as a young kid and their parents saw their name with a piece of work and they turned up, the parents turned around to the teacher and said, that is not my child's work. And the teacher said, well, it wasn't good enough to show. So we chose someone else's work and we, oh, and we put your child's name, name that. The trauma in primary school is, is huge, and it stops, and it's so deep, it's so early, and it's so deep.

But, and so, Neil, how can we help adult dyslexics who maybe don't have that support system? Maybe they don't understand what dyslexia is, and they go to counseling and the counselors don't— like, what do we do? What do they do?

How do you help? How do you help? I think they do need to be tested and they need to find something that they're good at. They need to find their own self-worth in their life, okay? And allow them to try out pottery or painting or graffiti painting or Gardening, just give them projects that they really want to try and allow them to design your backyard. Yeah, or just come up with a— yeah, just allow them to find that self-worth. Yeah.

I'm just going to divert the conversation for a minute because Lakshmi has commented, great chat. I enjoy Neil's work on dyslexia and adult relationships as well. Would love to hear your thoughts. I know, Lakshmi.

My thoughts, thoughts, thoughts on adult relationships?

Yes.

Oh, you think that, that leads away another hour?

We need 3 hours.

We'll have to have you back. We'll have to have you again.

The strangest thing is, is that when you date someone who is dyslexic— no, if you are dyslexic and you date someone who isn't dyslexic, at what date will you disclose that you are dyslexic?

Dyslexic.

People put it off. They put it off till the 3rd, 4th, 5th date, and then it begins to be this huge problem. Okay, should be on date 1, and it shouldn't be, sorry, it is like, oh, by the way, I am. You will turn around and say, yeah, well, it's quite funny, I've read these Menu and I misread a word because I am dyslexic, that if you leave it and it is like a worm, it's like something that grows, it's a huge problem, yeah? Or when you date and you forget their name. I mean, I've been in pubs, I've been to so many pubs, you meet people. And you think they're really nice and you would like to see them again, and they give you their name, and within seconds it goes, okay?

What was it?

Seconds it goes. Or they give you the telephone number and you go, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just gone, okay? The love of your life. You could have just phoned the bike. That's short-term memory, yeah, or it's going to the date on the wrong day, okay, because you wrote it down wrongly or you forgot to write it down, okay, or arriving late, okay, because you misread the time, the bus timetables, yes. Yeah, or you meet their parents and you forget their names, okay? Or you ring up their place of work and you forget your fiancé's name. I've had that, okay? You phone up and they go, oh, it's Neil, hi. And I said, can I speak with— And I forgot my Fiancée's name. It is so-and-so. Oh yeah, thanks.

It's just kind of funny.

You know, it's funny, but I mean, it kills it.

Well, even arguments, those can go horribly wrong. I know with my husband and I, because I tend to talk real, real, real fast when I'm, when I'm mad, and he's like, he can't, he can't process it that quickly, and it doesn't go well. But we understand each other better now.

No, I find that— say I'm told off by my wife, she will tell me off for like 15 minutes, half an hour, and beyond the first 3 minutes, my brain just goes. It's just too much, you know, too much.

Well, I can disclose that Lakshmi is my daughter-in-law. And she's, she's married to my son who's got the extreme difficulties. And so she's dealing with this as a wife. She's, she's incredible.

Yeah.

She is incredible, you know. But it's been a journey for both of them and negotiating the whole field. And Nicholas, my son Nicholas, is extreme, not within normal. And it just challenges it even more. But anyway, we support them.

So yes, say say say say you want another talk on dating and relationships. I'm more more than happy to.

Well, I've got to say thank you. We've been talking for an hour, Neil. What you have provided has just been astonishing. You know the depth of the. That people haven't been through it, they don't understand it, and it makes it very difficult. And then the biggest one, you know, does the trauma really push them to excel further?

Yeah.

So where can people find you?

I—

what, physically?

No, we're not in this world. We're not allowed to visit.

No, my— all the books can be found on Amazon. They're all there. And my research, you should be able to just search for my name. All the papers are found on ResearchGate. But, but yes, just Google me and you will, you will, you will find them. There is a French, a French football player with a similar name. It isn't Andrew Zihim.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, on LinkedIn, you're on LinkedIn and Facebook?

Yes.

Twitter?

Yeah.

What's your Twitter handle?

Oh my gosh, um, you're dyslexic. Okay, hold on, I, I don't, I don't know. Hold on, my Twitter handle is @DyslexicSuccess. D-Y-S-L-E-X-I-C-S-U-C-C-E-S-S. Dyslexic Success.

Oh, Dyslexic Success. Fantastic, fantastic. Facebook, where do we find you on Facebook?

My name.

Right, and we've got the Twitter handle. So, and Lisa, where do we find you?

Oh, I'm on Facebook and I'm with some of the dyslexia groups, and I'm on LinkedIn, but I'm never on it. One of these days I'll be on it.

That's great. And Lakshmi has said that she's going to definitely attend one of your adult workshops in London because they're in Oxford, so I hope they can get to do it. And Nicholas has talked as well, he's enjoyed listening— my son.

Great. So I'm pleased.

Thank you. You'll find me, loislatchford.com, on my website, on Twitter and Facebook. And just thank you everyone for Thank you, Neil. We'll be in touch, and I'd love to have you come again. And next year, next year, we've got— we've got my videos are on YouTube. I'd love you to read my story, Reversed: A Memoir, and share it with friends and family. And join us with our next series, and it'll come up in January 2021.

Perfect.

And smash the like button and subscribe. I get my son sits there and tells me exactly what to say. So thank you, Neil. Thank you so much. This has been phenomenal.

Great.

So great. Thank you, and we'll talk to you again soon. Okay, stop stream.

Bye everyone.

End stream. And go back to here.