When Learning is Trauma: Evan McCarty, Lois Letchford, & Lisa McCarty

You know what, um, that light—

Come on, come on, come on.

Do you just want to eat now?

Can you open that door?

Let me, let me, let me.

Come on. Well, just because there's a light there. Just dim the light. Yeah, that's fine.

Okay, good.

We're dark.

That's okay. I'm gonna share this.

Copy.

That's not bad.

To compose.

You want this chair? So if she— I know like some, some things she said like, good on you.

Yeah, and, uh, as of late.

Yeah, so if you don't understand, just— we'll just chuckle about it. They sent you this, that's her YouTube channel, and then when she puts this up live, there'll be like another link, I guess, but I don't know.

I'll pull it up on my phone.

That's what I need to do. Okay, this— get it done while it's done.

Oh yeah, we've got to change all this.

I knew I was forgetting something. I knew I was forgetting something.

Can we change the picture?

What are we looking for? What are we looking for?

Evan McCarthy. M-A-C-A-T-H-Y, capital C, right? Or MC, not MA. MC, 2 Cs. Is it MC, Lisa?

Yeah, MCCARTY.

C-A-R-T-Y, not T-H-Y.

Okay, well, I'm gonna have to change it after this.

Yeah, we've got to change it twice.

What are we looking at?

MCCARTY, no H. All right, well, it's easier to copy and paste rather than fixing up the pictures. When you do the picture right at the beginning, it helps us.

But if I want to pull it back up, it's like I just start—

sure, where?

To trauma.

And what I want to copy the link.

Actually, we'll just let it go live until I'm sure the soundtrack makes it easier.

All right, what are we looking at?

Trauma, May, June, and go down a bit.

And this one?

Yeah.

Or is it that one? There's two Evans.

The last one, I think.

This one?

Oh, I don't know. Yeah.

All right, there's nothing you guys want to run past?

No, no, that's it.

Yeah, no websites you want people to check out?

That's right. Yeah.

Okay, save. Now let's get back here. Excuse me. All right, let's get the sound check out of the way.

Now that's better. Now we've got it right and we've changed the YouTube channel, and I've got to be careful not to get lost in my background, so I've got to sit very still.

Yeah, I think when you lean back, you disappear like a ghost.

Headless Horseman.

Yeah, there you go.

And I'd— and it teaches me to, to sit still because when I move backwards and forwards, it's actually not good for recording. Evan, would you like to talk to us, please? Yeah, um, I mean, it's just a sound check.

Yeah, can you, can you hear me?

Can we hear you? Keep talking.

Yep, uh, my name is Evan McCarty. I am doing a sound check. I'm saying hello.

And I'm trying to fix my hair because I thought I would have headphones on. Now I've got uneven hair.

Aren't we vain as women?

Yeah, it's just— it is what it is.

Yep, I have the same problem. Mine always looks a bit—

Stop moving, you're disappearing.

Okay, that's so funny.

He gets so mad. Stop moving, you're disappearing. Back for me.

Yeah, we need to—

what we're going to do is after this we're going to retake a picture with the camera itself because the fisheye is too much for what my camera is taking a picture of. That's the problem.

Okay. Yeah, because you're back— the background was done by us.

The background was done by a 16:9 camera. It's obviously too small for the camera that they're using.

Why do I worry?

Okay, so have you got friends listening in too?

Uh, I will, yeah. Are we live?

No, we're not live yet.

We're going live.

Are we just gonna sit around and talk for 5 minutes and Toffee's gonna delete this 10 minutes?

Ah, we are live.

Just to leave you live.

Yeah, instead of closing out and going back in. So if you want people to join into the pre-chat, they can Look on Lois Letchford right now on YouTube, find the link and click on it. Get it ready.

Okay. Yes, we are right now. You got it right now? Yep. Excellent. And this is our pre-chat.

Let's see what happens. And I'll send a group message.

Oh, this is fantastic. I'm just so pleased you've chosen to join us.

I'm I'm glad to be on. It's uh it's a good experience to be able to you know talk about the things that. You know, not only me, but everybody else has gone through. Um, it's, it's refreshing to see people who actually, you know, care.

That's—

we always care.

Yeah, that— you're right, you're absolutely right, because I find that's a really interesting statement because—

You have 3 minutes before you can start.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, you start 10 minutes beforehand.

Yep. Yeah, we got 3 minutes because it comes across like people don't care.

Right.

And when in reality, you know, it's more so they don't know.

That's right.

For the most part.

Yeah.

Well, that's, that's one. And then they make their, their judgments.

We may have to change it again because it's still saying Lisa McCutcheon. It's still saying Elizabeth for some reason.

Okay. Um, Isaac was giving me instructions how we quickly make judgments that you're Just not smart enough, or— I don't know. All right, afterwards. Okay. It's not smart enough and you're just not working hard enough, or you're not trying hard enough.

Right.

And we use that blame excuse far too quickly.

Right. It's, it's a, it's a grab-on that people can go to when, you know, say for instance in school, it's like, I'm struggling, the teachers don't know what's happening. And then, you know, something like this happens where now we understand it.

Yeah.

And looking back on it, they can use that as, you know, not, not necessarily an excuse, but, um, a reason as to why.

Yes.

Yes. And to reevaluate, to rethink. I mean, I think that's what we're really trying to do is, is, well, we want to stop the failure, right? We want to stop the failure and stop the blame and And to give teachers more knowledge earlier on.

Come on, come on. All right, you should still have the link loaded, so Ctrl+V. Nope, never mind. All right, we're gonna have to grab the link from you. Sync, copy, close. You're live now if you want to say something.

Oh, fantastic.

Okay, so it is popping up.

Oh, that's the problem then.

We've got your picture up on Facebook now.

I'm famous.

Ah, that's wonderful. Do you put it on Twitter as well?

I always do on Twitter. Ctrl+V. Wait, now do it.

You want LinkedIn?

I don't know what that is.

Oh, you don't know what that is?

I mean, you can do it on LinkedIn. Do you want to or not?

No, it's supposed to be— it's— my husband would say it's professional advertising.

Yeah, just type in LinkedIn.

LinkedIn is here, right there.

Yeah. Oh well, you went there. Come on, come on, come on.

Oh, you gotta—

you got 2 minutes before you need to start anyway.

Start a post.

Wait, let it load first. Control V. There. Live now. That should be fine. Post. Dude, I've already clicked post. It's fine. Okay, here.

What, what, what?

Take her.

No, no, no, I can't do that.

Okay, fine.

Are we live now?

Oh, come on, don't, don't, don't attack me.

I've got Isaac's playing with the cat. Welcome, Evan. Thank you for being with us with our May-June When Learning Is Trauma series. And I want to introduce Evan because Evan is Lisa's son. So Lisa and Evan have lived with and through this trauma. Would that be a valid statement?

That would be an understatement.

Yeah, definitely.

It breaks my heart, really.

It—

that's all I can say. And I'll just read what we have about you on your bio. Evan, we had so much fun writing it. Evan, as a young child, Loved books, so when he went to school, no one expected him to struggle. He loved attention. He was a great comic and quick-witted. He passed all standardized tests in elementary school. As a result, he slid or wandered through school with an undiagnosed learning disability. Evan found writing—

The worst.

I can appreciate that. He eventually left school, worked multiple jobs from songwriter to chef to sous chef, waiter, and eventually construction. Evan excels at culinary arts. No one, least of all Evan, expected he had a knack for writing. His success came through writing a food blog And he has achieved accolades for his excellent reviews. Evan has faced multiple challenges throughout his short life and is currently working towards being a project manager. Welcome, Evan. Welcome, Lisa.

Thank you for having me.

Before we start, or as we start, could you give us a short summary of your schooling?

Yeah, so, you know, like you said in the bio, when I was young, um, I really enjoyed, you know, reading books. And, um, a bunch of books with pictures were my thing. Um, books that you could interact with, those were a lot of fun. So I went to school. Um, I don't remember too much about 2nd grade and before, but, um, when I went— well, I remember 2nd grade. 1st grade and before, I don't remember too much. When I went to second grade and middle school, that's when problems started happening. You know, it was like you said, the attention. It was good and bad because the attention gave me something to cling to. It gave me something that I could use to, you know, cope with. But it also got me in trouble. And it's funny, when you said he loved attention, it almost sounded like you said he loved detention.

Attention.

I did learn to enjoy detention. It was fun. Um, so moving past that, um, I always did well in school. Uh, when it came to standardized testing, it was easy for me. Um, it came down to being able to, you know, eliminate certain questions on— or certain answers on the question, and from there really narrow it down and then use common sense to, to, you know, base my answer off of.

So just a minute, you didn't even read the passage?

No. I would, I would read the questions first.

Yes.

And, and this was, this was an evolved skill. This is something that happened, you know, after I realized that my reading wasn't too strong. So I, first few times I would read the passage and I wouldn't get anything out of it. I'd go down to the question and then I'd have to read the passage again.

Yeah.

So from there I started reading the questions, you know, focusing on those keywords and then just skimming the passage for it. And then looking for, you know, those key answers that matched up to either one and then going from there.

Yeah.

Um, and that made it a lot easier for me. Um, I remember I had some friends who were in the, um, they were in the, uh, special needs class, not special needs.

Special ed.

Special ed class. And, uh, they were my close friends and they seemed to have fun. They also seemed to have it a little bit easier, so they told me the key to Um, passing, or the key to getting into this class is to fail your PSSAs, which is our standardized testing. So I intentionally started filling in the wrong bubbles on the tests. Um, that's a whole nother story. Uh, I didn't wind up getting into the special, the special ed classes. Um, and you know, from there I kind of just skated by, you know, I, middle school turned to high school, uh, excuse me, elementary school turned to middle school. And in middle school, that's where, you know, my attention needs really got me in trouble.

Yeah.

And just my excess energy really, really got me in a bad space.

Yeah.

Early on, I got in some legal trouble just with some friends. And it was, you know, I went to juvie for a little bit. And when I came out, I was in 8th grade and I was on house arrest. So I was going to school with a house arrest bracelet on my ankle. Which made everything a million times worse. You know, the teachers, they would be like, are you okay? Like, we're gonna have you sit in the back of the class and this and that. And with that on my ankle, all the attention that I was getting around from made it impossible to focus on schoolwork. You know, all I was thinking about was, oh, what does this person think? Or what do I look like to this person? So, you know, moving past that. uh, all my problems started to really develop, um, going later into life. Middle school breezed by just like, uh, elementary school. Now high school is where the real academic problems came.

Yeah.

You know, um, I'd always struggled, but high school is where, you know, you have 2 choices. You can really excel and apply yourself to the work if you're capable of doing that, or you don't.

Yeah.

And for me, it was that I couldn't And, um, or wasn't willing to, you know, put in— because I, I could have done a lot better than what I did.

Yeah.

And I could have passed high school, but the amount of work that it would have taken me was so much greater than everybody else that I didn't see that it was fair. And that's how I looked at it.

And I think the gap between what you've got, what you can do, and what you're seeing everyone else do is so big. It's like a high jump bar. It's It's just too big. I can't even attempt this because the gap's too big.

Right.

I always looked at things from like a reasonable mind perspective. So my reasonable mind was telling me that, you know, I see how hard these kids are working. And I got it at the time. I was like, you know, they might be a little smarter than me. That's fine. But then it got worse. And I said, well, why do I have to stay after school 5 times a week, um, and still fail a test when they don't even do their homework and pass the test, you know. So that just became a, a gap, like you said, that I was not willing to fill.

Yeah, I don't— I, I struggle to say you weren't willing to fill, but I say it's— the gap is just too big and it just leaves you Leaves you flat on the floor. You don't really know how— you're saying yes, you're blaming yourself that you didn't work hard enough. From my point of view, I don't think you could work any harder, and, and you had really just given up at that point.

Right, right. Yeah, and it was, it was, um, where I was at in high school, I could have worked harder, but it wouldn't have made a difference because I still would have fell short of where I needed to be. Yes, but, you know, seeing that Um, from, you know, a decent, a decent amount of time before I would have, uh, had to graduate or whatever, um, did leave me flat on the floor and I just stopped trying.

Yeah.

I have to interject a little because I deal with this on a daily basis. I feel guilty, real guilty. I mean, moms always feel guilty about something, but, um, I felt so guilty that I didn't recognize the struggles that he was having.

Yes.

And from early on with Evan in school, I thought, like, looking back, I could see the signs that he was having similar struggles that my younger son was having, but I didn't know that at the time. And I always just thought, as other people would say, he's not applying himself, he's not trying, he's, you know, he could do it if he wants to. And so we tried all the things that parents think they should be doing, you know, consequences and grounding him and all this kind of stuff. And I think that when you're a child who— or, you know, an older kid who's not capable of doing the work the way they are teaching it, and the anxiety and stress level is already heightened, and then on top of that, your family's like adding to the problem, it's almost, it can be paralyzing. Now, I know, and he didn't have support because he wasn't in the remedial classes because he figured out a way to beat the system, basically. And they're so smart that they can, you know, the standardized test that he took, he could do that, but he wasn't learning in the sense of, you know, what was required in the classroom. And that, you know, we didn't know that.

Mm-hmm.

So one of the things that we always talk about is the need for a screener, and I would say a dyslexia screener. Now, I always use dyslexia as other things too. I know technically that's reading, but also I put in their writing and the numeracy skills. And if you used a screener, you would have been able to see that this child could have some trouble learning in the way that you're going to present it. And then I think a lot of that anxiety And stress could have really been avoided. So I just had to put that in there because I, I just feel bad that I didn't know what I didn't know. But this is why we do this work now.

I was going to ask you, how did you cope with all of what was going on?

Not well. I mean, I tried my best and, and, you know, we tried to be supportive, but we, we didn't know what that was. We didn't know. And even when his younger brother was so obviously having struggles, And we have to remember that these things are on a continuum too, right? So whereas maybe Evan's reading ability was better than his brother's, his writing ability was lower. And, you know, it's— we didn't— we just didn't know what this was. There's about 5 years difference between Evan and my younger son. So by the time we figured out what the problem was with Kieran, he was already in, you know, high school.

High school.

And had already been in a lot of trouble. And I always thought that the issue was all that other stuff, not realizing that all that other stuff came from some of that, some of that early, you know, isolating school stuff, or, you know, maybe feeling like I don't quite fit in with this crowd of school people.

Evan, you passed the reading. How did you get on with writing then for the standardized tests?

So with writing, it was, uh, it was a little harder. I always scored one, um, one grade below everything else with writing.

Yeah.

Except for, I think, one or two occasions. Um, and I, I just remembered, you know, I would read the passage and I would just, I would just try to highlight as many keywords in my head that I could. And then from there, it was, it was, it was a hack job of a pa— of a, of a. paragraph that I wrote after that. It was, uh, it was not something that was clean. It wasn't really organized, but there was a lot of writing.

Yes.

So what I, what I tried to do was I just tried to write so much that I had to have hit points in it. There, it would have been impossible for me to not score at least, you know, 3 out of 5 points on the writing because I wrote, you know, 4 paragraphs.

I don't know how they read that. The writing is wasn't terribly legible.

Oh, it was, it was horrible.

Well, you know, when they do the, the, um, marking of those things, they get 30 seconds.

They must have had some genius reader reading mine because he gave me 3 out of 5 points. So maybe you only got 3 paragraphs down.

He gave up. He's like, yeah, yeah, let's move on to the next guy.

Yeah, so it, you know, it's not They're not spending hours trying to decipher it, but I'm fascinated that the teachers let you get through even in the classroom. That's what I find interesting.

Well, when I went to school, and I remember it first started in middle school, and I'm sure it happened before then, but I first remember it happening in middle school, was my ability to manipulate.

Ah.

And not only that, but just, you know, overall just kind of make myself fluff myself up, you know.

Yeah.

Um, where I would have troubles in school, I wouldn't do the homework, but I would apply myself like while I was in the classroom in person. Yeah, I would participate. So I was— I just basically made myself look like a good student who just was struggling, you know. So they just kept kind of shuffling me on.

Yeah. Yeah, but I'm surprised that they didn't pick up on the patterns of this. And I remember, um, an instance in either 6th or 7th grade when I talked to his English teacher, and I have writing samples that I've saved, and it is clear that this guy was having an issue. So just as an example, in the 6th grade, you know, he's still writing the word they, T-H-A-Y.

T-H-A-Y.

Right, so if you're in the 6th grade, by now you should have seen the word they so many times that it's just very automatic, you recognize that. So the fact that he's struggling with these telltale characters characteristics of that type of problem, and that the teachers don't recognize that is disappointing. But I remember this particular teacher, and I said, well, you know, his writing doesn't look right.

Yeah.

And the only other thing I had to— because I didn't work with children, I was an ER nurse, you know, I wasn't looking at kids' writing. And the only other thing that I had to compare was my older son, who didn't seem to have that same Writing pattern. And I remember saying, like, this writing doesn't look right. And she said, well, you know, they're— he's a boy and they're messy. And I thought, well, that's reasonable because they are messy.

Right.

I mean, I have a whole house full of mess. I have a whole house full of boys. So that seems reasonable. And looking back, I should have said— I should have known what this was and said, no, that's not just messy. And, uh, yeah, so, so the teachers didn't realize that he was struggling.

And I just, I just wanted to say to something that you had said, you know, um, that I forget exactly what it was that you said, but for me, it's not, um, it is disappointing that the teachers couldn't pick up on things like this, but it's not surprising to me, you know. And when I look back at these type of things, Especially in my experience in high school and middle school. I can't blame those teachers, but moving forward, I can hold them accountable to change and do what they need to do for the next, you know, few generations. Because for me, it's just, you know, I could sit here and hate the teacher that wasn't able to cope with how I needed to learn.

Yeah.

But that doesn't do me any good or anybody else any good.

Yeah.

You know, moving forward from that, it's something that You know, if I ever run into those people again, or, you know, what we're doing here does something, um, that they're just held accountable for the mistakes that they make now that they are no longer ignorant to what this is.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, and yeah, because you can't— you're right, you can't go through your life hating, but we can change it for the next lot of people coming through. And that— you're right, that's why we're doing this, to say—

And use those times for educating people too. too, because my younger son will still get upset when somebody, you know, says something like, oh, you're dumb, or you're stupid, or you're not trying, and he gets upset, you know. And I said, well, let's use these opportunities to educate people, because that's how you affect change. So, I mean, you know, Evan's attitude towards all this is— I can't tell you how refreshing it is for me, because again, I struggle with a lot of guilt.

Yes.

And, you know, I I'm just really proud of the fact that he has become such a— well, he was always a strong person, you know, and that just proves it. To be able to get through a system like that where it's sort of all against you, uh, for him to be such a strong person is, is really, is really cool. Um, and his maturity level is, you know, he's almost like— you'll be 21 in a couple days. In a few days. And I'm— I couldn't be prouder I'm going to try not to cry. I don't want to cry on YouTube.

But Lisa, I think you said it, you know, I as the parent had to go to the education system and say, this is the problem. And that's a problem that we as parents are required to have so much knowledge.

And I do want to say, I just thought about this, when we would have those school meetings Yeah. You know, where, where mom and dad would have to go in and sit down with, you know, the education people and whatnot. Um, I would always get super excited when they came home and they were like, oh, screw that person or this person or that, because it made me feel like I had somebody on my side.

Yeah.

You know, it made me feel like, okay, maybe I'm not crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I'm not alone.

We were supportive in some of the— in, in that type a thing. Like, we knew that there was something going on, we just didn't know what it was.

Yeah.

You know, that's where I beat myself over the head, because looking back, I should have seen all those signs. You know, some of the similar struggles that my younger son had, but I didn't see that for whatever reason. I don't know why. It's just in hindsight that I can see it. But, you know, some of the things that, that he was going through, it just seemed It seemed kind of over the top with some of it. It was all focused on the behavior of something. And then, and here's just another thing I want to bring up. He excelled at football when he was younger. And as he got older, he had a knee problem. It's, it's common for kids when they're growing, and it really— he had it really bad. So it kind of took him out of the game. And that seemed to be something that he felt Really proud of.

Yes.

So not only was he good at being you know the class clown and being quick-witted and all this kind of thing, as you mentioned, that was something that gave him as a defense mechanism and something that he could hold on to to feel good about himself. But football was was he excelled at that when he couldn't do that anymore. I found that he started to what I would have thought he was getting into more trouble, and I thought maybe it was because of that because he couldn't play football. And again, like it never occurred to me that education. Emotionally, he was struggling so much, even knowing that he was. You know, we would ask him, Evan, if you need help, just let us know. And he'd say, no, I got it, I got it, I'm fine, I can do it. Like, he— well, he is stubborn. I mean, I have to say, I mean, he gets that from me for sure.

Yeah.

He always just wanted to— well, I had asked him recently, why did you— why didn't you accept the help from us? And he said, because I just wanted to be able to do it by myself.

Yeah, but you know, you bring up to me a fascinating point because I don't think children can even articulate, these are the problems I'm having, right? Would you have been able to say anything? All you know is you can't do it.

Yeah, see, when I look back on that, um, I, I was able to say something, but it was a matter of Pride, ego. Um, and I didn't, I didn't, I didn't recognize that at the time, that that's what it was. But looking back, that's totally what it was. Um, and also, I think hopelessness, just because, you know, I didn't— I had tried. I mean, I had been in school, and I had people who are supposed to be, you know, their job is to help you with this stuff, help me, and it still hadn't worked. So I came home to my mother, who's a nurse, and my father, who does destruction thinking, well, is it even worth a try? You know?

Yeah.

And I remember there was one time where I got some math homework and I brought it home. And my older brother, who she had mentioned didn't really have these problems, and my dad were trying to teach me how to do a problem on it. Just a pretty simple problem. I forget what it was, but it was pretty simple. And I was not getting it. And it turned, after about 6 times of them walking me through how to do it, it turned into screaming.

Yes.

You know, it turned into, yes, you're just not trying this. And I don't blame anybody for that because that's it. I mean, for someone who doesn't know what this is, that's what it looks like.

Yeah. Yeah. And we, and from my point of view, I think we underestimate the amount of work it takes to find a method that allows children to learn to read. You know, it takes a lot more time, it takes a lot more thinking about, okay, they haven't got it this way, what else do I have to do?

Right.

You know, so it— you're right, it's a multifaceted problem and it takes a lot of work. But the other thing you said, Lisa, was, you know, like Lenore had told us, my sister Lenore Hall had told us, when children are struggling in school, then they come home and we compound the problem By blaming and isolating. Can you tell us how that was for you, Evan?

Yeah, um, you know, it was when I left, I, I always remember the feeling of that bell ringing or that clock ticking 2:45 or whatever the time was and being able to finally walk out of there without getting, you know, escorted to the principal's office by a security guard. It was a wonderful, wonderful feeling until I got about halfway home on the bus and I realized I'm gonna have to go home and I'm going to have to do my homework. I'm gonna have to try to work through that and I'm gonna have to deal with looking back on it, people who don't understand, but again, not, not their fault that they didn't understand. So I think all of that, you know, combined with— there's so many different There's so many different, um, variables that go into this, you know, hundreds of variables that go into why my learning was trauma. But, you know, this being one of them, um, I would, I would come home, you know, and I would just be like, this is, this is school but worse.

Yeah.

In different ways, because now I have to do it without the help and without the coping mechanisms because they didn't feed into, you know, my smart-wittedness, that would just— I'll just be grounded, you know. So I couldn't do that. So yeah, compounding, compounding the problem. That's cool. I like, I like how you said that. That's a great way of describing it.

And I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I would say you're not getting a break. You know, like you're not, you're not getting a mental break from the anxiety at school, and you're not getting it at home. And home should be a place where you just kick off your shoes and you, you know, you put your feet up and you relax. And I think these kids, they tend not to get that.

Yeah.

And not just Evan, you know, and I've talked to, to almost maybe hundreds of people at this point, and it's kind of the same experience.

Yeah.

And unfortunately, everybody then looks at all this behavior and thinks that that's the problem.

Yeah.

And I had a— there was a story from when I worked in the ER, there was a fellow, a teenager, who actually they wound up sending him to a mental hospital because he had had enough. You know, his, his school life was difficult for all the reasons we're talking about. And then he came home and he had a, um, a stepfather who was pretty hard on him.

Yeah.

And the stepfather, um, pushed him because he said he was lazy or something. And the kid just had had enough. And unfortunately, the kid said something to the effect of, well, you know, I'm going to kill you. He didn't mean it. It was just like, his breaking point. And then everybody, of course, then shifted the attention to the kid, like the kid's the problem.

Yeah.

And, you know, I remember as a nurse, you know, helping this kid, not knowing what all this dyslexia and learning— I hate the term disability, but learning disability. I didn't know what all this was, but I knew enough to say, I don't think it's the child. I think it's the situation. And he's really struggling. He shared that he was struggling at school. And on top of it, this kid had a, like, he had a lisp and he was a little bit short for his age, so he probably was getting picked on. And we focus on the behavior or the wrong thing. And I did that.

Yeah.

I mean, I remember, we can take this all the way back to preschool when I was trying to teach him the alphabet. And like, you know, my older son got the alphabet. I thought I was best mother. I was a wonderful teacher. I taught his older brother how to, you know, the alphabet. So clearly, I am a wonderful parent. Then he comes along. And I had such trouble teaching him the alphabet. So again, looking back, that's a red flag.

Yeah.

Now, he wound up learning it when he went to school. But I always assumed that he was just being a knucklehead with me, that he just Didn't feel like— that he was being obstinate, that he just didn't feel like doing it. So very early on, that's— that was my impression of what was going on. So one of the reasons I think that we do all of this is just to show other people, if you have these kids that are showing these types of difficulties, frustrations, learning problems, or emotional problems, dig deeper. Find out why.

Yes, I love that. Evan, I've got an unscripted question.

I love unscripted questions.

What do you wish we think— what do you wish we would have done differently or someone had done differently?

So it's funny that you mentioned that because just at the end of her talking, she was talking about, you know, things that, like digging deeper. You know, which for me wouldn't have worked. I've learned through being in AA and, you know, going through the things that I've gone through, that there's a time and a place that everybody's going to reach where it's just the time for them. You know, like when I see people come into the rooms now and, you know, they're struggling, you know, I reach out and I say, you know, here's my number. If you ever need anything, call me. But I can't, I can't stop them from doing anything, and I can't teach them anything that they're not ready to be taught, you know. So looking back on what I wish people would have done, that's a very hard question because, you know, I, I would— I could say I wish that people would have given me a break, but where would that have brought me? Would my maturity be lower than it is now because I hadn't gone through those struggles? Or sometimes I think, you know, do I wish that somebody would have tried harder or dug deeper? But then I think to myself, would I have received that?

Hmm.

And would have anything actually changed that path that I was on? And again, a big thing that I learned in AA is everything's just how it is in the moment. You know, I, I, Looking back for edu— for moving forward purposes, for, you know, you guys who are doing this awesome work, um, just somebody who understands. I wish there was that. Somebody who could not necessarily reach out to me because, I mean, up until maybe 10th, 11th, 12th grade, I would not have been able to comprehend what you were talking about.

Hmm.

But someone who could reach out to the parents, you know, and explain to them what's going on. And furthering that, an aid that could go to the teachers that have to deal with, you know, what I was going through and teach them something, you know, because talking directly to me or digging deeper with me probably wouldn't have worked. Yeah, I probably would have put up those walls because I had gotten very, very good at that. Yeah, you know. Yeah, but yeah, that's a hard question.

But yeah, but you know, you're right, we learn through struggle. We learn more through struggle than we do through often than through success. But you're right, it's a multifaceted question and multifaceted problem. And where are you in that, you know, and how you react? Fascinating thinking.

From a parent point of view, it seems to me if we had understood this problem in preschool, then we could have worked on building up his strengths and keeping his self-esteem, you know, afloat with academics, and also with other things like that he was good at. Because I think that some of these kids, or most of these kids, or a lot of these kids struggle with, well, I'm not good at this.

Yeah.

What, what, where do I fit? Where do I fit in school? And for some people, they have something that they're very good at. And some people don't, don't. And, and I think, Evan, you said, when you said hopeless, like, that's, that's such a powerful word. And it's so true for so many people that once you are hopeless, now what?

Right.

And people shouldn't feel hopeless. You know, you should be going, all these kids are excited to go to school, they get into kindergarten, they're like, yeah, this is great. And then, then the academics start. And if those kids that struggle with that learning in that way, they, they're the ones that all of a sudden, this isn't so great, right? And so I wish that, as a parent, I wish that more people understood what these learners are like.

Early on.

Yeah, like very early on. Because I don't think it's fair to ask that of Evan now, because he's got no other way to process Yeah, but it makes a difference.

We have a question from Jodie. What do you wish a teacher would have said or done to try to help?

Jodie Kaiser.

Okay.

Um, you know, again, that's a, uh, that's a, that's such a broad question. Um, but it's a good question. You know, it's a valid question. I had a teacher, um, I forget what her name was, but she was a social studies teacher. And social studies, what is it? It's memorization. You know, that's, that's all it is in social studies. You're not doing any problems. You're not doing any, you know, things like that. You're just remembering and reciting. Um, which was a problem for me. Um, and I remember I was just struggling. It was, I don't remember what the question was. It was something about like a revolutionary war or something. And, you know, we did these little Quizlets.

Mm-hmm.

every Friday where you'd come in and the Friday before a test, you'd do a Quizlet to base where you are on the test. And you did that for 3 weeks leading up to the test. Now I just see, I always mixed up the Revolutionary War and then this war and this war.

Mm-hmm.

And I just kept struggling with that. And maybe one time I got like 2 of 'em right. And, uh, she had come up to me and she was just like, I've made something that might help you. And I'm thinking to myself, oh great, here we go. She's gonna, she's gonna give me like a schedule for like after-school work or something like that. But what she did was she handed me a piece of paper that had 3 pictures on it.

Yeah. Yep.

It had the, the name of the wars.

Yeah.

And each different picture, it was very bright, it was colorful.

Yeah.

And it had, it had stuff that I could remember in it.

Yeah.

As opposed to like a black and white picture on a a worksheet.

Yeah.

So when she gave that to me and had me match them, 'cause they were, they were jumbled up, she had me match them.

Yeah.

Then I could, I, I took a Quizlet the next day and I, I got it right. You know, so maybe not things that teachers would say to me, 'cause a teacher all day could sit there and be like, I understand what you're going through, blah, blah. That's not gonna do anything to help me move forwards. You know, it's things that teachers do. That would help me. Yeah, you know, and that, that being one of them, that was a very rare occasion. And that was probably the most, the most helpful thing that had— and it's for— it's, it's almost sad because it's for such a small Quizlet and for 3 questions on a test.

We're frozen.

Yes, but it helps, you know. So it's the things that teachers do for me.

That's fascinating to me because I can understand how You know, you're getting this war and that war and the other war, because they're all wars.

And they all have numbers at the end of them.

And you've got no way to distinguish A from B from C. Yet we have a picture, we need a timeline, we need a much more experiential approach to teaching rather than just a list of letters and numbers and sounds or words or whatever it was, you know.

Lois, I always find it interesting. I think it's interesting when people say, well, they don't have a good memory.

Ah!

And I have fault with that because I think it's important to say a memory for what, though? So a memory for words and dates and numbers, maybe no, because this is how these learners— this is where they struggle. But a memory for pictures, sounds, colors, movements, you know, they're awesome at memorizing, you know, remembering those things. I had a— it was actually a school psychologist say that my other son had a poor memory, and I said, well, you have to be careful in what you're talking about because nobody can beat this kid in the game of Simon.

Yes.

You know, Simon with colors and the sounds, and nobody can— you're close, but nobody can beat this kid in Simon because he excels at memorizing Yeah. Colors, sounds, patterns, movements. It's a movement that he can remember, and, and, and that's a form of memory. And that's how these types of learners, for the most part, they excel in those skills that are outside of or other than the skills that we're asking kids to do in school.

Can I touch on that real quick, Sharon?

Yes, please.

So, you know, patterns. Right?

Yeah.

And I couldn't help but when she was talking about the Simon game, thinking about football to start. You know, I, when I was extremely good at football, you know, I was, um, I would go, I remember, and this is, this is, we were talking about the attention part earlier as a coping mechanism. When I lost football, I went on to other things and I found other things. And that's, you know, something else to talk about.

about.

But in football, it was all patterns to me. It was all after the first snap of the game, I would watch to see how certain people move when the ball goes a certain way. And then I'd remember that. And from there, I just made— I was, I was very— I was just very good at football because of those reasons. And I had— I'd never really, um, recognized that until now.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and same with cooking, you know. when I went to tech school, uh, that was my break, you know. My break wasn't coming home and kicking off the shoes. My break was going to tech school where I was, you know, top of my class. And, and the reason for that, looking back on it, is I can, I can picture how something's going to taste in my mind before I make it.

Wow.

So when people are like, oh, should I put garlic or thyme in? I don't have to ask those questions. In my head, If I'm combining 6 different ingredients into one, I can take this, this ingredient, mash it with this ingredient, and then I know I'm going to put these 2 ingredients at the end so I can taste that in my head before I put it in.

That's, that's really cool.

So the patterns, you know, I, I was able to excel in those areas because they're so interactive. But I wasn't able to do that for school because it wasn't.

It wasn't interactive. But you know, you've hit on, I think, the key component of this. What we're asking students to do with their memory, they say they can't do, with no clue of what they can do and their strengths in memory. And then they say we've got short-term memory problems. It's actually not a short-term memory problem. It's the way we're teaching it that doesn't allow them. to keep stuff in their short-term memory or their long-term memory, you know.

So maybe to Jodie's point, maybe, well, not maybe, but it's very important, excuse me, that the teachers understand these, these types of learners.

Yes.

Because it's one thing to give them a label and say, you're dyslexic, you're dyscalculic, you're dysgraphic, you're ADHD, but it's another thing to understand what does That mean, because that's the way you're going to be able to help them.

Yeah.

And, you know, you ask the regular person on the street, what is dyslexia? And they'll say, oh yeah, yeah, that's where they read backwards.

Yeah.

Right. And so people, people, people, and teachers included in people, and again, I'm not coming down on them because they don't know what they don't know, but it's so important to understand these kids so that you know then how to help them. Because he's right, like, staying after school to do more of the same work. Well, it didn't work the first time. It didn't work the second time. It didn't work the third time. It's not going to work after school either, unless something else is being done. Or, you know, he had this social studies teacher that said, hey, let's try something visual.

Yeah.

You know, and I remember going into another student's IEP meeting, and our, You know, a dyslexic student who was only diagnosed from the school as ADHD, and he was in the very lowest reading level and was getting no reading help whatsoever. And all of his teachers were telling him that he wasn't paying attention, he wasn't able to do that, he could do the work if he wanted to, and he was clearly dyslexic, clearly. And they were giving him papers that were photocopied to read. And you couldn't even— you couldn't see the pictures because they were so blurry, but you also couldn't see the words. You know, some of the— you know how paper looks when there's no toner and you get the lines through it? So you have a kid that's having struggles reading words, and now you've got lines through them on top of that, and then you're telling him he's not paying attention. And so it would have just taken that teacher to say, hey, I think we have a visual spatial hands-on learner here. Let's figure out how we can help them. I hope that answered Jody's question somewhat.

Yeah, I think, I think that answer is about as, uh, as good as we could have.

Yeah.

Well, we've got another question from Christopher. What would you say was your biggest hurdle going through high school?

His parents. No, actually, no, it was, uh, his mom.

It was My parents were the biggest hurdle in doing the things that I wanted to do that I was not allowed to do. But that was not my biggest hurdle going through school. You know, the biggest, the biggest thing that plays into my story is substance abuse. That came after, you know, losing my ability to cope with certain things. And it also came with losing my ability to get attention from, you know, the things that I was good at. Because, you know, when you, when you first start doing something you're good at, everybody's patting you on the back, clap.

Yeah.

And then it becomes normal. It becomes something that you're expected to do. And, you know, and you've got to keep pushing yourself higher and higher. But even when you do, you reach that little bit, and then you get a little bit more of a clap than And it stops it, you know. So moving— my substance abuse problems really took off in 10th grade. 10th grade, I just, I, you know, I started using a bunch of different substances. And that put a huge obstacle in front of me that even to today, I'm overcoming. Today, I'm 5, I'm almost 6 months sober today.

Wow.

Um, you know, and that has been—

Huge.

It's a, it's a struggle every day. It's something that requires my utmost effort and it requires, you know, everything that I have to remain on that path. In school, um, I started skipping school in 10th grade. I skipped maybe 46 days out of the year, um, with a friend without my parents knowing.

Yeah.

You know, the school would call them and they'd be like, well, Evan, Evan didn't, uh, show up to tech, or he was marked absent from tech.

And I'd be like, oh, that's just because we're late getting there, you know.

And it would just, it would turn into this big web of lies. Um, but yeah, that besides, you know, just like my learning problems, because that was, that was the biggest issue in school, but my biggest hurdle to get over, like, that developed in school was substance abuse.

Wow. Yeah, yeah, that, that is so important to say. I'm glad that he shared that. And I didn't, you know, we didn't talk about any of this beforehand. I wasn't even sure what he was going to say. I was a little nervous. I thought he was going to say my parents stank and they were horrible, and no, he wouldn't do that. But, um, um, you know, I'm glad that he shared that because, as you know, that's Partly what I do as a nurse in an inpatient drug and alcohol facility. And I talk to clients every day who have similar stories. And it's a shame because a lot of them have that— what he said, I felt hopeless. There was no point to it. Why should I bother? Why should I ask for some help? Because I'm not going to get it anyway. And, you know, I think in Evan's case, as soon as he had that other thing essentially ripped up from, from underneath him, that football, there was at least keeping him active and, you know, having some self-esteem with something he could do well. After that got ripped out from him, then you're lost.

Right.

And that's when we really started to see some of those problems. Now, here's the thing that I hate to hear, you know, substance use disorders, you can see it where a substance use disorder causes school failure, but oftentimes it's the school failure that starts this direction to begin with. And I don't think that we talk about that enough. I think it gets minimized. You know, kids want to feel relevant, kids want to feel included, and if they're not included, they're going to find a way to be included. And, you know, if they, if they can't feel good about their successes, they're going to feel good about their failures.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, I think that's really important for educators to understand, parents to understand, And again, it goes back to that dig deeper. There's a problem here, dig deeper.

Yeah.

But really at that point, you know, I started to feel hopeless because I didn't know what the problem was. And I think for our family life, that's when things really started to go off the rails emotionally for everyone because we were desperate, we were scared, we didn't know what to do, we were trying everything. You know, and he's trying the best that he can to get through this, you know, this thing called life. And it was traumatic for all of us. But even aside from that, you know, even aside from those problems with my younger son, you know, just the schooling was traumatic enough. And then you add on top of that these other factors, and it is— can be overwhelming.

Yeah.

Sure.

I'm sure. You know, it's only recently that I found therapists that are family therapists. So you're not putting the blame on one child or what's going on, but you're seeing it as a family unit and in interaction of the family. And it's working with everyone to work together. And I thought I needed that. I needed that. And I think, you know, parenting has become Such a, you know, so changed that we parents need far more support than we're given.

Yeah, yeah. Well, he said something interesting before. Well, I guess it was months before he shared that he really started to struggle in school. And you said in the 10th grade, but you mentioned in English class where you were reading Shakespeare, I guess, and you were finally at the point where where I'm like, that's enough. I can't, I just can't do this work, so I'm just not going to. And so that was about the time I think that everything sort of started to fall apart. But, you know, prior to that, Evan was interested in books, and I remember one of his teachers who actually went on to be a doctorate as a reading specialist who doesn't know anything about dyslexia. It blows my mind. Absolutely blows my mind. Yeah, I know, look at Lois's eyeballs, right? She did, she went on to become a doctorate in reading specialty, but she doesn't know about dyslexia. And he wanted to attend her summer course, you remember this, in elementary school for writing.

Oh, with Dr. Henry?

Yeah, I didn't want to say names on that, but let's put it out there, right? So anyway, he always had this interest, Because these kids are so creative. And then we put them in these classrooms that, you know, want to teach it this way and they get frustrated. And so I'd like to talk about his newfound interest in writing because he's been doing that.

So—

Can he—

That's exactly what I wanted to talk about.

He's been impersonating a food critic.

Yes.

And it's just such a fantastic thing.

Your successes, Evan. That's what we want to hear, and what you're doing now, because your mother tells me these incredible things about what you're doing.

Yeah, you know, it's um um thanks, Mom.

This is so great though. So it's so typical, you know, something you would yeah something funny you would do.

You know, I always had the capabilities and potential to be super successful. You know, and that was always seen by when I've really honed in on something that wasn't school, you know, something that was, you know, like more pattern-based or whatever the case may be, I was immediately good at it. So for instance, now, you know, with the food blog and stuff, it's I was celebrating 2 months of sobriety, and I went into a fancy restaurant by myself, and I ordered 5 appetizers, 3 entrees, 2 soups. And I had no plans of writing a food review.

I was just—

I love food, so I was just doing it. The waiter comes over, puts everything down, and then she asked, she was like, can I get you anything else? Like kind of smirking. And I was like, actually, yes, I'll take 3 more appetizers, 2 more entrees, and another soup. She asked me if I was a food critic. So I was just like, yeah, I am. Manager starts coming out and he's pacing back and forth. Then he comes up to me. His name was Duncan. He's just like, how are things? And I looked at him, I said, things are good. And it was just, it was just this whole thing. So I started writing a food, a food review just to play the part. I was like, why not? Um, the first one was kind of just I actually, it was, it was a bit funny. I just kind of put in some, I was at the end of it, I was like, as for my credibility to being a food critic, I am not. I am a 20-year-old recovering drug addict who likes to, you know, do this. Anyways, um, so I started doing that just for fun as a little, uh, to let off a little bit of steam because in recovery there's, it's a lot of hard work. that you kind of gotta knuckle down and do. So you gotta have your time where you're, you're happy and you're doing things that you like. Um, moving past that, uh, in construction, what I do now is excavation.

Uh-huh.

Uh, you know, digging holes and putting in utilities and such like that. Um, and I'm, I'm just a laborer, but, you know, I get on the machines here and there and stuff. And so I've been really successful this time around in doing that this company. I was with them 2 years ago and I was not very good at it. Um, I'm getting my GED as of now. I'd say about a week, 2 weeks until I have it. And once I do, um, I'll be— hopefully I'll get hired as a construction supervisor with the company my dad works for. Um, because stuff like that, again, it's interactive.

Yes.

There's, there's paperwork. Yeah. But when I see it out in the field and then I come back, I can match those things together.

Yes. Yes.

Past that, you know, just on being successful and being a productive member of society.

Yeah.

And I think that's what the biggest success that, you know, I've been facing, that I've been seeing, you know, because everything else, that's whatever. You can have a great job and you can, you can do great things, you know, for yourself. But it comes down to, are you a productive member of the world that you live in, you know. And that to me is, you know, the most impressive success that I've had. Because if you would have seen me, you know, 8 years ago on, it was, let's keep that kid away from our kids and let's call the cops, just let them know where he's at right now, you know.

8 years ago? So you were all of 13, 14?

Oh, even earlier than that.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah. I had started smoking cigarettes when I was about 8.

I didn't know any of that.

Yeah, that would have been me. Very good at hiding things. Yeah, I was very good at fluffing myself up. Um, there's a, there's a lot of things. There was a, you know, see, that's where I get confused because I don't know if my education problems influenced me to start that. I'm sure it had some part in it. But I don't know if it's the sole reason or if it was just the path that I was on.

Yes. Yeah.

You know, so coming from all that and being able to look back at what I was and, you know, see what I am becoming, not what I've become.

Yeah.

Because that's—

It's still evolving.

I'll be— exactly. I'll become when I die.

Yeah.

Because then, then I've become whatever it was that I was. I'm always becoming. That's the biggest success that I've had, is just being able to revert back to something normal. And I don't like the term normal, just like she doesn't like the term disability. Yep.

Um, but for lack of a better word, a functioning member of society.

Yes, ma'am.

And that's— yeah, this is phenomenal. I am so impressed. You've got to tell us a little about, about the food blogs. You said about it, so you— do you still write them?

Yeah, so I've, um, it's, it's very expensive to write a food blog.

Because he goes to very fancy restaurants.

I'm not gonna write one on McDonald's. So, um, so I'll go— there's a place called, um, uh, Stove and Tap, and that's the first place that I wrote it. Um, the bill was supposed to be about $270, and without tip, and they knocked it down a little bit because I'm I was a food critic. They also gave me some free food. It was, it was a fun time. So I've done, I've done 3 of them. And I have another one that I haven't released. They're all on my Facebook. And I also post them on Yelp and Reddit where— and I've had a particularly good amount of success on Reddit with them, reaching a few, few thousand people for each one. Um, but as of recently, it's been hard to because, you know, I'm really trying to keep becoming a productive member of society. But not only that, to become that, I have to be a productive member in my family and a self-supporting member in my family. So I've had to, you know, really focus on saving money, um, which has been hard.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, you know, paying things like car insurance and car payments. being able to buy myself the things that I need. If there's something wrong with my car, I got to be able to take care of that. Yeah, you know, so things have been put on the back burner, right, but haven't been, you know, tossed out.

Um, but you're thinking you've got it worked out, you know. You have come such an incredibly long way, you know, in your short life. So, you know, I am incredibly proud of you and see So pleased that you've come on and talked to us about it and shared your experiences. And happy birthday for you. Happy birthday for your 21st birthday. We'll have to spread that everywhere.

Right.

Yeah, it's, um, it's cool because I'll go to meetings and whatnot, and— or just wherever, not just meetings, wherever I have social interactions. And depending on the setting, you know, people, it'll get brought up like, oh, how old are you? And I'll say 20. And they'll be like, I thought you were 25. Yeah, I thought you were, you know, this, I thought you were that. And I can only attribute that to— well, I can attribute it to a few things, my maturity, but mostly because of that long way that I've come. You know, I meet people who are 25, 26 years old, and I'm just like, you know, I try not to compare because Comparison is a very dangerous thing to do, but it's knowing natural for me to do it. Yeah, I think wow well you know I've come a little bit longer than them. I assume I I would I would guess you know and so like there are it's a double-edged sword. Yeah, you know there's very good pros to what have happened to me in the past because I wouldn't be the person that I am today without them. But also you know. there's some times where I remember those struggles and I get caught in the negative mindset, mind space, where I'm focusing on the trauma that came from that as opposed to the benefits that came.

Yeah, which is— and that is a constant struggle, I think, sometimes, isn't it? Because it's one way or the other.

Well, I think that's so important to think that way in general, because I feel that too. All the things that we've been through, or I've been through, um, I'm much stronger than I used to be, and I know so much more now about certain things. And I'm able to put that experience into action and help other people. And I really feel like that. I think that people that don't understand their struggles will launch them to their next, their next level. It's a shame that they don't understand that. But we're all on this earth walking our own journeys, and we all get what we need to get. And you can't make somebody see that or force them, um, you know. And Evan knows that, that this is his journey. And, and you, you, you— what was it that you said? It is for today, or some, um—

It just is what it is in the moment.

Yeah, yeah, it is.

It's a lot of AA sayings.

One day at a time.

Yeah, take it easy. Easy goes.

Yeah, get through today. Yeah, this has been just fantastic. Evan, where Where can people find you?

Um, they can find me on Facebook, Evan McCarty. Um, they can, they can find me, yeah, pretty much on Facebook. Yeah, or, uh, you know, at some of the restaurants that I work at, Caruso's. I don't know if they're local or not, but I, I wait tables there now, and let me tell you, that's weird.

That's weird.

I've never felt more uncomfortable in my life.

Really? Well, you know the food so well you can explain it to everybody exactly what herbs are in there and spices.

Yeah, but you know, I'm used to being back in the kitchen where, you know, a customer comes up and says something, I'm just like, I'll throw a pan at you, dude.

No, you won't.

Um, yeah, Facebook's, Facebook's probably the most, uh, the best way to see where I'm at because, you know, I have this social media stuff like that, but they're, they're more of a private thing, right?

Yeah, very good. Lisa, where can we find you?

Facebook as well. I'm also on LinkedIn, and you can find me here on Monday Afternoons with Lois.

And we've got 4 more left. I think we've got June to go because this is the 31st of May today, isn't it? Well, I would like you to hit the like and subscribe Subscribe buttons and the bell for notifications because we need to share it around with everyone and share it with friends and family. My audiobook is Reverse to Memoir, is out now. You'll find me on Twitter and Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram, YouTube and my website. Anything else we need? Next week we're talking to another student. We're talking to my student here, Matthew, and his mother Luna from Houston. It'll be a different story to yours, but we'll have mother and son again. So thank you, thank you very much.

You can find the links in the description for your book and the audiobook.

The links are in the description for the book and the audiobook, and I hope we got the right picture with the right broadcast. So thank you, thank you Thank you very much. I've absolutely loved talking with you.

Thanks for having me.

It was a pleasure. Thank you for sharing your story. Wonderful. You can call me Lois. I'm old now.

Okay, bye-bye.

Bye. Where to be? Thank you, Evan.

Thanks for having me.

Ah, there we are.