When Learning is Trauma: Jean Barlow, Lois Letchford, Lisa McCarty

This week we welcome Jean Barlow from the UK. Jean has had a career in teaching across all ages and groups of children in mainstream, special education, and hospital school for children with learning disabilities. Jean currently works with Professor Frances McGlone of the Neuroscience Department at Liverpool's John Moores University, researching the impact of the nurturing touch touch on children's health and well-being. And it goes on and on and on. So I'm not going to read anymore, but welcome, Jean. Thank you for joining us today. And my first question is, what took you from teaching to almost mental health?

Well, it was mental health. I became a CAMHS teacher in a school in a hospital after my second daughter I wanted to move away from teaching whole school, whole, you know, commitments, and I wanted something that would fit more readily with our family and moved into a hospital school where the classes were smaller. They were very intense classes, but very small. You're very much smaller, and I learned such a lot from working there for nearly 5 years. I worked there 5 years.

A hospital school, could you explain that to us?

Yes, in England we have CAMHS, Children and Mental— Children and Adolescent Mental Health Unit, in many of the hospitals, and this particular hospital had a school attached to it department. And the school had children from— there were 3 classes. There was an early years class, there was a junior class, and there was an adolescent class. And my role was as adolescent teacher. So I would be responsible for all subjects. And I would be focused on improving the children's understanding of the way things were in schools and the kind of expectations that there were for them in school and to try to help them and the families come to terms with their difficulties. So it was different anyway.

The children there, did they have Were they physically ill or were there, you know, learning disabilities or how did it— how did that work?

It was that there was a range of all different kinds of problems. Some children had eating disorders, some children had fear and anxiety, and some had difficulty interpreting routines and understanding, um, cause and effect and things like that. So, but often the trauma was within the family. Often it was precipitated by an event, um, but not always.

Yeah.

Do you understand? So, and at that time autism wasn't, um, so much diagnosed. It was It was not something well understood at the time.

Yeah. And since then, your research and your work has taken you to deal with touch.

Yes, it has. It really has. After I worked in the hospital school, I realized that we needed to work on things before the problem Once you have a problem, then that becomes the focus, and really the focus should not be the problem. The focus should be looking at what the child needs in the, in the beginning and try to precipitate good healthy growth and enrichment, nurturing and needs-driven agendas. So that you are always addressing the child's needs and explaining that this is a way forward. And it's really important that they see that adults are going forward just as children are going forward, and that it is a cause and effect thing with each of us, that we help each other to move on. And I think that's one of the things that's missing at the minute, that it's, it's kind of prescriptive all the time, is prescriptive, and children are not really good at following prescriptions.

I'm— I work with a 15-year-old.

Yeah.

Who, when he came to me, you know, couldn't tell the difference between T-O and T-W-O.

Yeah.

And you think— and he'd spent I mean, the parents have spent a fortune and how that was prescriptive and no one bothered to even check out his language understanding of anything.

No, and that is common in childhood. That really is common. And, um, you see, the first 3 years are so important in a child's life and people don't yet realize that and don't understand how It's vital to have this enrichment right from the word go, even while mum's carrying the baby. It's important to have that gentle, soothing, stroking, loving, caring, nurturing acknowledgement all the time. So, um, I think this is why it's so important that we understand it now. Because we've got an opportunity. It's a new century, it's a new time, you know, we can, we can start again, can't we?

Particularly with the pandemic that's taken over everything. Sorry, Lisa, what were you going to say?

I was just thinking, um, Jean, what about what year was this that you're talking about roughly?

Uh, probably 1983, '84.

So my, my next question My question is, were a lot of the kids simply on medication?

No, no, not at that time at all, no. The psychiatrist who ran our school did not believe in medicating children, and she would often, in discussion with the parents, say, by the time they're 18, you will see that they will have learned, but it's about consistency and It's about security and keeping routines and making them feel safe. But not very many people actually heard what that meant and interpreted it well, you know.

Yeah.

Not everyone. You see, you often parent the way you've been parented, and unless it was that bad, you carry on doing what was done to you. And that's sadly what's happening now, that It's just repeating itself over and over again. And this is why it's important schools change this trauma-informed approach.

You work with— let me get his name— with Francis McGlone at the neuroscience department. Can you tell us about the work you're doing with him and what's happening with that? What's his research?

The research is about looking at childhood stress and acknowledging it. We were in the middle of research when the pandemic struck, and unfortunately we didn't finish getting the full results. We're looking to start again, but obviously it's not clear from the pandemic, and we are working on finding new schools to start because we've done the work with the schools and we can't go back to the schools that we used. But it's about taking cortisol samples before we begin the work and after. And of course there's ethics to be considered and there's the children's desire to take part or not take part because with my touch work, respectful touch is about the child choosing how they feel, whether they feel like they want to take part or not. And I try to encourage a whole school approach so that it doesn't matter whether it's today or tomorrow, but that everybody is respectful of each other as they play the games and participate in the work. So it's—

Do you think in America we have a lot of Like no hands, no touching rules. And that's—

I don't know, I, I can see why that happens, but it's really bad for children. That it really is bad for children because the soft stroking, the respectful touch, the gentle soothing is vital for the stimulus of the brain so that the child grows emotionally, socially, Self-esteem is intact and they can concentrate for longer. There have been tests done that show that a child who is regularly massaged by his colleague or his mum or by someone every day, they are able to concentrate for up to 30 minutes longer than someone who doesn't receive that kind of gentle stroking touch.

Yeah.

So it's really important that people understand that soothing your child is not sissy or softy or making them mad.

Mm-hmm.

It's about giving them something that reassures them, that helps them belong to themselves, understands the separation of my body and yours and what's respectful touch and what isn't. And by giving a child a voice, you are giving the child opportunities to say, I don't want you to touch me.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Empowering. And that's what needs to happen, and it needs to happen quickly because children need to have that confidence that they don't have to succumb to adult, um, you know, requests or intrusion. And it happens all over the place.

Because from your— I mean, the early components of your research, or what it's built on, I imagine, come from the orphanages in—

Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Tell us about that.

You're the expert. I was already doing it when I did some research around— what brought Frances and I together was that I always did research with my work because I wanted the schools to see the difference between something that was just nice to do and something that really had an impact.

Yeah.

And of all the schools, I kept a log of the who you play with, what was the attendance, what was your maths and English, mental maths, mental English scores, so that you were picking up this quick data that you could tell the difference from this day to next day, you know what I mean? Because children can choose whether they join in or not. The majority join in, and I've had autistic children sit under the table and watch what was going on for a week and then join in.

Yeah.

You know, it doesn't have to be today, but they will participate and they will enjoy and they will Show their parents, and they will share it with the siblings because it's natural and it's something that we should and always have in, in our evolvement. We've always done it.

Mm-hmm.

It's just that society being proper have decided to have these no-touch policies, which are really against the, the emotional and mental health of children.

Yeah.

And of people, because we still need to have touch when we're adults and when we're old. And we can see that with people who've been isolated in care homes who have chosen to die rather than carry on living. They've had nothing wrong with them, but they've died, and it's because they've been isolated and alone. And that is the whole point of us being gregarious All of us are, you know, it's part of our humanity that we belong to each other and we share, we have like minds, we have like spirits, and we gel with certain people because they're just like us. And that's about humanity.

You're going to say something, Lisa?

No, I was waiting for you.

Tell us about the research from these, from the orphanages. And I think it's Eastern, Middle Eastern Europe that they came from.

It was, yes, it was the Romanian orphanages. What happened was it was called the Minnesota Project, and the people in Minnesota took many of the orphan children from Romania and they brought them to America and brought them up as their own. But the information that gave them that impetus was that they heard that The children, they had all these babies in cribs in rooms, and the only children that seemed to thrive were the children that were nearest the door where the nurses stationed. They would travel from one ward, one room to the next room. The children that were on that pathway of the nurse going from hither to thither, they thrived because the nurses would talk to the babies and— calm them and, you know, respond to them when they were going from here and there. The babies who were in the center of the room more often than not died, even though they were fed regularly and they were changed regularly. A lot of them died because they were not interacting. They had no purpose to live. And I think the researcher was a man called Allan Schur. I think he's still working, but I can't remember. You know, that's— his name sticks out in my mind when I did that research.

Yeah.

And I felt that that confirmed it with me that the work that I knew that I was doing that was good and had an impact, I knew that that was making a difference to the children. And that's how I did it. And I used to start trainings and, you know, staff meetings always with some of the touch work. Always.

When we get to the extremes of the world, it becomes so obvious what happens when we don't do the right thing.

Absolutely.

You know, so they're the extremes, and that's what Lisa and I talk about. My students are often the extremes, but then children on the whole range end up with Lisa's care 10 or 15 or 20 years later. You know, from— because I was saying to you, yes, talking about touch, I'm reading a book at the moment. I can't even tell you the title, but it's a girl from Manchester. Really?

Yes.

And she's in her 50s. And she talks about going to a convent school.

Right.

And being dyslexic. And then, answer this question. Every time she got it wrong, she was smacked. And she ended up with a huge bruise on her thigh. And the nuns just covered it and said, don't tell your parents. That's also touch. But not a touch. We ever need to remember.

No, no. Those, those are the— not— there are 2 types of— there are 2 types of nerve in our skin. There's the myelinated nerve and there's the unmyelinated nerve. Now, the C tactile afferent, which is the one that responds to the gentle touch, goes more slowly to the brain and distinguishes the pleasure The fast-moving one gives you the pain.

Instant.

Do you understand? Yeah, the instant one is the pain, and that's the myelinated touch. And the smooth, gentle touch is the tactile afferent that is slower and soothing, but it stimulates the midbrain so that it accesses the frontal lobe and it differentiates in its con— you know, in its concept. And so the child will physiologically grow better, it will psychologically grow better, and it will gain an understanding of himself and others. Because babies, right from being born, have to learn about the difference between self and others. This is why peepo games and, um, You know, these little tickly games that we play with babies, that's why they're so important, to help the child to distinguish between self and others. You know, it's, it's really interesting, it really is interesting, but there's so much about it.

I know when I was in school, which was a while ago, um, we would go out on the playground and play tag and play rugby and touch rugby and all this, and we, you know, touch each other and shove each other, and then When my kids were in elementary school, they weren't allowed to play tag because they weren't even allowed to like tag, you're it. And I'm thinking, really? Like, I think that's overboard. And as you're now pointing out, that that's actually detrimental. But yeah, I think our society is— I don't even know what to say about that. I'm speechless. And that's hard to get me speechless. Yeah.

Yeah, it is important, but I don't think people understand how vital it is. If you let 2 children play, one will sit as close to the other as possible, and that's because in its evolving, your baby's evolvement, it's being surrounded by touch all the time to stimulate the cell growth.

That's right.

And, you know, when it's being born, it's being massaged as it's coming and the oxytocin's going from the mum to the baby to help it, um, take away the trauma of being born. But that is so important, the, um, you know, the pain that transfers the oxytocin to the baby, because it takes away the memory of being born.

Wow.

You know, it's really vital stuff. Yeah, it's really important.

People need to understand Yeah, and I think of the kids that then— I mean, I have a lot of negative things to say about our current education system, of course, and I just want to be clear that it's not the teachers, it's the system.

The system, yeah.

But, you know, we take kids who are little and playing with each other, and as you're saying, being nurtured, and then we put them in, say, preschool or kindergarten, and now all of a sudden they have to sit alone at their desk, nobody touch. You know, you get onto the carpet for carpet time and you can't touch anybody and it's such an unnatural state. And I'm sure there'd be people that would argue, well, they have to learn rules and all this, but I find that it's so unnatural what we do to them early on that starts this anxiety.

It does. I hate to say that, but— Yeah, but it's true. Yeah, it's true. Absolutely true what you're saying. There are more children with mental health disorders now than ever before.

I never considered that though. You know, I know that it's— we push kids harder and harder and earlier and earlier to read and to do academics, and we think that's not so good, but I never thought of it in terms of taking a child's natural curiosity and need for being nurtured and then saying, Sorry, you can't do that for the, you know, the majority of the day in school. That's interesting. Yeah.

When I first started teaching, I had very long hair and very short skirts. It was in the '60s. And my children, when I was listening to them read at the table, would be stroking the back of my hair. I went home to my mum and I said, Mum, they treat me like a dog. I said, when I sit down listening to them, stroking my hair. She said, well, that's okay, lovey. She said, that's just because it must look nice. Your hair must just look nice at the back. And my mum kind of told me to forget about it, and so I did. But what's happened today is that people are seeing those kind of behaviours and, and, um, negative— giving them a negative slant. They're not. It's normal for children to want to touch things that look different, and that's how you learn.

In your research, and I'm sure you test for a lot of things, I'm assuming anxiety and depression and maybe how well they learn. Is that accurate?

I don't do that. I do the taking account of what their attendance is like because I don't belong to the school, because I'm not, you know, that would be intrusive to have that kind of knowledge. No, what the kind of thing I gather are looking at the responses. Are they more regular? Are they on time? Are they doing better in their reading? Can they concentrate for longer? What are the play— Like, you know, how do they interact with their friends? Is it better? Is the behavior calmer? That— those are the kind of the observational evidence that you can absolutely pick up from school to school. And all teachers say that children are much, much calmer when they have participated in the child-to-child talk.

Yeah.

How about the incidence of bullying? Do you see Do you see a difference in that?

You do indeed. It's definitely anti-bullying because they are— because you're teaching them to be respectful right from the word go. You don't get pushing in the playground because they will— they get used to asking, is it okay if I do this? Is it okay if I do that? And that's what you're cultivating. You're trying to encourage them to talk about The difference between what they're feeling with the fingers and what they're feeling inside their bodies, and you're making them mindful of those things.

It's one of the reasons we do all of this work when learning is trauma is a lot of the kids that learn differently than the traditional school setting will get bullied, and then, you know, that's another fear and anxiety that they have to deal with on top of the fact that they're not learning like the others maybe, and the anxiety that that produces then they're really not going to learn stuff. It just is— it's all related. But I never—

You've got also the children who are very bright, who learn very quickly, who feel odd, who are excommunicated from the group because they are swots, or, you know. So it's just children need to be told that we're all different, and they need to be encouraged to see that we complement each other with our differences, then— and by using touch, by using different games to see who likes this, who likes that, they get used to seeing that people like things different, but we all have fun together. And that is the importance of it, that learning is fun and we can all have fun together if we do it our own way.

Yeah.

And we help each other. That's the best.

That is, you know, to me, that is just fantastic.

Thank you.

You know, because that's what we don't, we don't even talk about. Some learn fast, some learn slow. We do things differently, but we, we're doing this. We're all part of the human race.

I think that's what we have to get back to. And I actually remember a girl when I was growing up who was moved to a higher grade, and she sort of did get Yeah. So I see what— I see your point with that, absolutely. I also remember playing duck, duck, goose, and I think it's such a shame that they can't play that anymore.

I know, but that's the whole thing. I mean, you're taking fun out of play, you know. And this is— if you don't put fun back in the classroom, then you're missing your children. I don't know what it's so much like where you live, but where I live, children cannot play play outside very much because it's busy on the roads. There are too many accidents, there are too many people, so you don't see children playing together very often unless they're in a park with an adult and a few children together. And that wasn't how we were when we were growing up. We played outside.

Yeah.

We went in for tea, you know, and our children are not having those experiences.

And some of it's with, you know, there's too many people suing over this, that, and the other thing.

Yeah.

And kids aren't allowed to go outside and, you know, snow or the ice in case somebody falls. And I mean, we had a, we had a jungle gym that was on top of concrete, right? So if you fell, you went to the nurse and you got a Band-Aid and you were fine. But it's just a different situation at this point. And I don't think that's ever going to swing back around, but maybe I shouldn't say never.

Well, we have to wait and see because I think that there is— there are changes coming. I'm absolutely convinced that changes will come, and I do hope that a lot of the research that has been done will influence the educationalists who make the decisions about, you know, the status of systems in schools. Yeah, so...

I, I can't say anything because I'm watching a little first grader, he's my adopted grandson, go to school. And they have, you know, because of COVID now they've got screens up at lunchtime. They sit at their desks, they're not allowed to leave their desk and watch TV.

Oh, it's tough. Yeah, I mean, horrible. Yeah, it's so alien to childhood, isn't it, really? Um, and we don't know, we have no idea what will happen next, really, because COVID is definitely here to stay. It's not something that's, um, we're going to have to learn how to deal with it and be more successful than we've been up to now, haven't we, you know? Still quite high where we are.

It's certainly, I think, given the world a shock on multiple levels, and I don't think we've even come close to even thinking about it. We think it's going to disappear like 1918. No, but the population— and we haven't even talked about the growth in population, which is part of the cause of this. Don't talk to me about it. I get distressed. Do you know what I wanted to ask you about? Have you got any pictures of the brain to show how touch impacts the brain?

Well, I do, but I've not got it with me. I have not— I haven't got anything on hand.

That's fine, but send it to me, because when we put that up, that's what gets the audience in when they see a picture of a brain between non-touch and touch. This is what happens because we've had a picture of, you know, the brainstem and what happens when you freeze, fight or flight.

Right, yeah.

And what happens when children are relaxed, but to be in the executive state is where children start to think. And that's what you're talking about.

Absolutely. And it's natural. It's what they're doing all the time from being, you know, the first 3 years of life. Their brain grows immensely and it kind of prepares them to be the adults. That's why it's really important to get a good send-off at the beginning. But because it's plastic, there are so many ways it can be—

Come around it.

Better, come around and yeah. Because that's another thing about humanity, we are able to overcome all kinds of disasters and win through. And I think the Paralympics are something to give us all encouragement and strength, no matter what we're going through. They show us that all things are possible, and I think it's just wonderful to see that.

Yeah, yeah. So can you tell us about your Child to Child Yeah, well, it's only a very quick program of—

it starts off in England, we socially shake hands.

Yes.

So we start off with a hand massage, and in a classroom you've got eye-to-eye contact. Now, I don't know, some little children don't make eye contact at all, so by doing a hand massage and working on the hands You get that contact of looking at each other and sharing quiet voices and table manners, and it's just very simple. And then we have the back massage, which we teach when the children have built up trust, and usually it's in probably a week or something like that. And then we do the back and head massage, and then the— Oh, that's lovely. The children can choose when they're having a massage whether they want the hand or the back, and they can have different ones on alternate days, or they can have the same one all the time. And we have games that we play that are guessing games and sharing games that are— that we can do in a circle, we can do in squares, we can do in lines, and— Um, There are just a variety of ways that we can use touch to reinforce the curriculum, to reinforce these connections that we're learning, and about asking permission and saying thank you and respecting what people say, to give them plenty of practice so that people get into the habit of talking about how they're feeling and What they feel like doing today and so on. And it's just a variety of ways that we give to the teacher for the children to choose how they go forward with what they're doing. But every day, a 5-minute giving and receiving, so perhaps 10 minutes of the day. Some schools do it 5 minutes before break, 5 minutes after break. Some do it 5 minutes before dinner, 5 minutes after dinner, and some schools do it 10 minutes in the morning when they come in and settle down in the classroom. You know, it's different. It depends on the school and the children and how they interpret what they want to do, but it definitely belongs to the children.

Yeah.

It's not for the staff to decide what they're doing. It's the staff to talk with the children to decide together how that might be.

I'm thinking about children who are often ostracised in school and what a way this is to break down that barrier and include them.

It does, it really does. There are— we have children who have disabilities that can't communicate, but those children who've got an assigned worker, maybe an adult worker, Might be a peer buddy or someone. So long as you address most— all the needs of the children have to be addressed in the concept of how we begin it, how we do it in the classroom for the first time. And during the training, that is something that I would be talking about, that we look at our class, the dynamics, the children's needs, and we would work on, you know, how we present it to them.

So I was thinking about the kids maybe who have been abused, um, either physically or sexually, uh, and I'm trying to think how that works.

Well, let me tell you that I definitely, definitely, definitely introduced the hand massage in the way that I did in order that the children who don't trust others because they are abused, because they are beaten, or sexually abused, they need to gain trust. First of all, they're being allowed to choose. Secondly, they're being allocated someone with whom they can strike a relationship that is on equal, equal par.

Yes.

And, and when you begin with the hand massage, it's hand to hand, and you've got eye contact, you've got gentle voices, and you're only doing what the person who is receiving the massage wants.

And you're giving them control, it sounds like.

Absolutely.

People as adults that feel that they don't have— this control has been essentially stolen from them. Yeah, interesting. Wow.

It is. And you know, it's possible to see people who've been abused and are teachers now. I recognize when I go into a classroom I can tell whether or not the teacher has been abused by how they are working with the children on the, on the ear touch. I can tell. And I think the same respect must be given to the teachers as is given to the children, that if they feel uncomfortable doing it, they must not do it. And that is something that I always, always say.

Yeah.

If it's not comfortable for you, do not undertake this work because this is about your freedom.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

And you're doing it publicly, which is, you know, which is what you want to do, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. Because it's about giving children this power to actually voice how they're feeling and what they want. Because unless they learn to do it quickly, early, you know, it's easy to manipulate children.

Yes.

You think of the children who are brought up in care who have never had one adult who has shown them constant, secure, soothing, caring, loving, because they're not allowed. I don't know what it's like in America, but in England you're not allowed to cuddle and soothe and And hold your foster children. You're not allowed to do that. That is so cruel.

Even with foster children?

You are not allowed to cuddle them and soothe them. No, no, you're not allowed to.

We're creating Romanian orphanages again.

Well, what I feel is that our children are being let down, and the ones who are most vulnerable I'll let down mostly.

Yes, we have a question from Chris. He said, what advice do you have for parents of students that are struggling?

Soothe them, help them, reassure them, comfort them, tell them stories, give them— play with them, you know, very close contact, lots of reassurance, and lots and lots and lots of Different ways of saying the same thing, not repeating yourself over and over again, no way. Lots of fun things, play games, yes, lots of soothing cuddling.

That's brilliant, that's brilliant.

Yeah, yeah, that's just calm and soothe.

You know, when you say that and I think back to a time when my children were small, you know, you're You've got competing conflicts when the children are small. You know, get the dinner on, get the da da da da da da.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, and yet to put to say that we need to be calmer in our homes.

Yeah.

And put that as a priority. And yes, you do have to do these other things, but how can we do it in a way that is is calmer and more nurturing?

Yeah, we have to do it. We've got to learn to teach ourselves, you know, we have to. I used to give my daughter a quick laugh because when I used to get— and we made it silly and we made it singing. So I would say to my Naomi, come on, Naomi, we need a quick laugh! And scream, ahh!

Oh, that's wonderful.

But because, you know, you've got to find a way, and sometimes your laugh brings tears to your eyes and your throat because you are having a bad time, but your baby is laughing with you, and then you laugh and it breaks.

What does that mean? Because I'm over here in America thinking, I'm not sure what she's talking about. Can you— the law, are you saying?

Yeah, I do that. Because, you know, when you get cross, you can, you know, you're going on top notes, aren't you? And you have that feeling inside yourself and you've got to get there. But if you sing it, it's not so bad. It's not as bad as shouting your head off as you sometimes feel like doing. But my daughter, honestly, my firstborn suffered all the Lars that I had, and she taught me a lot.

But what you're— what's coming to my mind now is that parenting, you know, in the past, you think you as a parent or your parents did okay because you're okay. Therefore, you repeat the same process rather than reflecting And looking at what, you know, how can we not repeat it?

Yeah, do it better. How can we do it better? How can we save it? You know, nobody's perfect. And, you know, I know I made mistakes, and I know I apologized a million times to my firstborn because I made loads with her, and perhaps different ones with my second one, but And I think you're just not to be afraid to say that you're doing it wrong or you've done something that you wish you'd not done. It's about being honest and being the person you're meant to be.

And I think recognizing the, the inbuilt thinking patterns and processes that, that haven't been acknowledged in the past.

Yeah, absolutely.

We have another question. What would you recommend for teachers to help them better understand how to teach kids that are troubled?

I think it's important to say to the troubled child when they're not having a bad time, if there's anything you want to tell me, I will believe you and I will listen I don't think you can do anything more than listen to whatever's troubling the child, and only when you hear what they've had to say can you help them get through whatever they're going through. I mean, I, I had a situation with a child who was a little boy. what can I say, agoraphobic. He wouldn't, he wouldn't come into school, he was always off, right, okay. I took it as a success when he ran away to London. That was my success. You know, he wasn't agoraphobic at all, but what I did was I gave him the confidence to do what he wanted to do rather than what, you know, and I'm not saying that was the right thing to do. I'm not. I'm saying that you do what you can. And I took it as a success because he eventually found his own courage to do what he wanted to do. You can't live somebody else's life. And as a teacher, you can only do what you feel is the right thing at the time. But you've got to be true to yourself and true to what—

Yeah.

You know, where you're working, where the children are, and where you want them to be.

I think more teachers have to advocate for their— for themselves. They don't have enough resources, they don't have enough time, they're getting asked to do more and more, and then we threw COVID at them, and a lot of them are getting fed up and leaving. I'm in the medical community and we see the same thing. And they just— we all need to stand up and say, this isn't working. We need to fix this. And the administrators at the top and people who are making these essentially laws or rules or whatever, they need to hear it. And they need to, they need to understand because we are really raising kids who are going to become adults and nobody's functional.

Yeah. Well, This is why it's so essential now to rethink while we've got the chance.

Yeah.

And do something radical, you know, get it done quickly.

But that's why the science is so important, and I thank you for doing the work that you do. I would have never thought to do a study on that, and we need people that are thinking of these things from all angles and getting scientific proof— well, not proof, I shouldn't say proof, but scientifically We should have these, you know, results and things to look through so we can, you know, not just be going on people's opinions of this and that, because there's a lot of opinions, but we need scientific— we need science.

We do. And I was so glad that I was able to meet with Francis McGlone because he You know, he just opened doors that, you know, I had a feeling I knew that it was the right thing, but I didn't know why. So it was wonderful that I was able to work with him.

Our time is disappearing very quickly. Jean, thank you so much for joining us today. Tell us where you— where we can find you.

My email, my— I've got 2 websites, www.achildtochild.co.uk and www.jeanbarlowtrainingsolutions.co.uk.

That's in the show notes. Right.

I also have a link with Nurture International, who do nurturing practices working through the 6 principles of nurture for learning, and my work is integral in theirs. So I'm a patron of Nurture International.

What you're doing to me is so important. It's so foundational in what we're doing with literacy because we're You know, if you don't have these foundational components, you put the rest on top, it's a foundation. It falls over.

It does. It comes with age, I think, Lois. You know, I've tried everything else and it failed. You know, it's that kind of thing.

Lisa, where can we find you?

Mostly on Facebook. I am also on LinkedIn. And if I ever remember my password for Instagram, I will be on that. My kids actually set that up for me while I was at work one night. So I was surprised to find out that I was on Instagram. And then Monday Afternoons with Lois.

Well, next week we have another person from your part of the world. We're speaking with Pete Fire in the Belly. He's an author, entrepreneur, mentor, coach, property investor, and father of 3 beautiful girls. His mission is to help us find the potential to become The Mightiest Vision of Ourselves. He's also dyslexic, so I'm looking forward to talking to him about all of this. And remember to hit the subscribe and the like button, share it with others. And I have to thank my son Isaac and his buddy Chris for all their work because I could not do this without their help.

Ah, thank you.

Your links are in your— in the description below. Links from Jean. Sorry? Just click on the links and you will access websites in the— from the description below. Anything else? Lisa, thank you. Jean, thank you so much. I know it's late in the UK, so thank you for sharing with us and I'll send you an email to remind you that I'd love a picture of the impact of touch on the browser.

Right, well, okay.

And thank you, thank you so, so much.