When Learning is Trauma: Pete Lonton, Lois Letchford, Lisa McCarty

Welcome to When Learning Is Trauma. Welcome, Lisa, and we have— welcome Mighty Pete Lonton. Have I got that right?

Yes, indeed you have. Certainly. Thank you.

From Northern Ireland. Pete, tell us about yourself. I hate doing an introduction.

Who am I? God, there's, there's a question, right? How long have you got, Lois? You know, it's— who am I? Well, people know me formerly as Pete Lawton. I've given myself the brand of Mighty Pete, um, one because it's great. You can buy the domain mightypete.com. It's, it's there. It's It's super simple, right? So, but I mean, it's kind of ironic because in Europe, people think that's a bit ostentatious to give yourself such a brand. In America and farther afield, they think it's fantastic, right?

Yeah.

So there's all these different things, you know, why not? So you can be anyone you want to be. So who am I? I am a podcast host. I am a bestselling author. I am a TEDx speaker. I am a father. I am a mentor and I am a property investor. So that's a whistle-stop tour of who I am. I'll save you the math, I'm 42 now, and big changes in my journey about 5 years ago where I reached what I called my sort of midlife opportunity. That was a big shift in my life from who I was and what I was, and ironically dyslexia and a few other things actually played a part in that, you know. So I think when I got to the stage in life when I sort of put all my effort into, you know, being who I was took a lot of effort, took a lot of energy to be who I was or who I was at that time because there was so many things I was and so many things I wasn't. But what I actually discovered then when I stopped trying to be something that I wasn't and allowed myself to be what I am, then actually took a hell of a lot of energy and we allowed to go a hell of a lot faster. So life's changed quite dramatically. So That's a very quick whistle-stop tour.

That's, you know, really quite an amazing thing to say because immediately I resonate with what you said, the effort and the energy it takes to be what you're not. And I think of that particularly as a writer, you know, Lois Wright.

I think there's, you know, people talk about a midlife crisis. And I would liken that to, you know, I fondly changed the wording then to midlife opportunity because it is, right? But I actually think, you know, for me, the time when I should have been the most clued up between having young kids and, you know, I had, you know, a bit of the mortgage paid off and good job and all these things, all the sort of the superfluous things in life, by rights I should have been at my happiest point, and yet I was at my most lost point. You know, don't get me wrong, the kids are hard work and life and work and everything else, and you're chasing your tail and there's not enough time in the day. I had no clue who I was. And I kind of fondly liken it to, it's a bit like a fishing rod. You know, the further up the rod you get, actually the more bendy and wavey it is, and you kind of, you're sort of waving around in the wind. You don't know whether you're coming or going or what's good or bad, you know. And that's where I found myself, I was going, you know, and people say, oh, are you happy with who you are? And it's like, I haven't got a bloody clue who I am. I don't know who I am. I don't know what I want. I don't know what's right. I don't know what's wrong. Just totally sort of lost in what was going on. And it took a couple of crises in my life to sort of shake that out really into, I had to slow down. You know, the body sort of pretty much started to take over and saying, listen, if you're not going to take the time to slow down, I'll slow you down. And the body's amazing at doing that. Says, you know, you've tried this, you've done it the hard way, you've pushed as much as you can, but we can't sustain that, you know. So from that point, like I said, a lot of things changed in my life.

Pete, tell us about your early life in school, because that obviously impacted later on.

So probably through our, what we call our junior school, our primary school system here in Northern Ireland and the UK. So typically around up to the age of 11, 12, you're in a junior school. And that was fine. I was a very nice young boy, I think would have always been that way. And my reports were good enough until the actual academic side started to kick in. So really, getting through in the time, we had moved house a lot of times. So when there's an entrance exam to go from junior school to senior school, and retrospectively, and even as we talk here, I think we had moved house, so I had a tutor for that. So I was well trained up for it, if you like, and managed to pass that exam. And that was fine. So then I went into secondary school and quite quickly then, just with, like I say, we do 9 subjects here. At the time and going through, and I quickly started to slip and just keeping up and just, you know, we had, you start off, I think, with 2 languages, maybe 3 further on, but you have certainly 2 languages, maths and English and science and all these loads of stuff going on. And almost very early on, I started to actually struggle. So within sort of the first year, second year, and third year, I then started to get myself into a wee bit of trouble. Okay, and this is, you know, ironically, we look back now, I think, I believe from between second year and third year, at the end of the school term, the principal reached out and more or less said in a letter to my parents and all the rest was, The school term's over. We will need you to come in and speak to us before the next school term starts and decide about your future here in the school. The cards were, you know, my cards were marked at that point, and I knew it was. Now, that was down to behaviour and also school performance. Now, I would say I hadn't been diagnosed with anything at this point.

Yeah.

I was just being a little bit disruptive. Okay.

How old were you at this point?

I would have been, I would have been probably 12, coming into 13. So you could probably throw a bit of testosterone and puberty in there as well for the crack, you know.

Yeah.

So there was, there was a whole lot of stuff going on. Um, that's summer. I mean, to do that to any child now, I think it's possibly one of the most cruel things anyone can ever do because I was quite a quiet child in many ways. Um, Not quite. I was confident in what I did. I just didn't need to communicate a lot. However, what happened was over the following 2 to 3 months, I had plenty of thinking time. And of course, still with really sort of childlike behavior, when someone says, we need to talk about your future and you're in trouble and all these things are going on, what happened is, well, I started to have rather dark thoughts.

Yeah.

And that pretty much led to me to having suicidal thoughts because I'm so much of a hassle. I'm such a nuisance. I can't do right for doing wrong. And all my school report said was, could do really well if you tried harder. And this was me trying hard. So I was now left with this whole thing of going, I don't get it. I'm trying hard, but yet I'm not doing well. And yet when I do well, I'm not doing well enough.

Yeah.

And yet I can't do right for doing wrong. So the unfortunate— and I look back and I cringe, not at the situation. I cringe at how trapped. And my initial thing was it was like me versus the world, even my parents. And at the time, I had looked at it that my parents were with the school, and it was me versus my parents versus the school. In fact, even my sister would say, and my parents were petrified. They didn't know how to speak to me. They didn't know how to connect to me because it was a very vulnerable time. And my natural instinct was to introvert anyway and to sort of solve it quietly or to not attract attention.

Yeah.

You know, because it was, it was sort of, that's what introverts do. They don't want to attract attention. And yet I'm attracting attention, but I'm also distracting. I'm distracting because I'm not performing. So I distract in other shapes and forms, which I imagine is very common with people who are, you know, distracting, distorting, deleting, or generalizing. You know, that's the NLP world. You know, when you have a weakness somewhere else, you become creative somewhere else. So, you know, it was all those things.

Yeah.

Long story short, I was allowed back in, and thankfully that period subsided. But it was always— secondary school was always a bumpy ride, let's just say. There was, you know, performance and sort of— I was bullying people, you know, and I'm really not proud of that now, you know, but just being Being difficult, being outspoken, you know, and not— I don't know, it's just different ways. It's very much like a duck out of water, you know. I think that's probably the best way. And my parents, you know, God rest them, unfortunately they both passed, but my parents were there very much, and they would have done anything that it took. And it's always interesting, the parts that parents take. So a lot of that was either tuition or extra support and help with the homework and the things like that. In hindsight, looking back, I was probably in the wrong school. Okay, and I think when the school is not picking up on your style or picking up on who you are and what you are, and your parents are supporting you to the best of their knowledge and all the rest, and that's no slant on them at all, but actually I was probably just in the wrong pond. And I do believe that to this day. It's actually, it's that thing when parents and people around you want the best for you, but actually they want the best for you as far as they're concerned. They're not thinking from your perspective, they're thinking from their perspective. More or less the old adage of, listen, just suck it up, you'll be all right, and once you get through this, then you'll be something else.

Well, but let me think about that. You know, you know, the school parents try and they put you there hoping and praying it's going to be the best for you. And I don't— and no one's got the knowledge to say Is there a better place? Yeah, you know, I think that's what—

because at least you did that in Ireland. Is there an option to be in a different place? Like, you have public school in America, and if you can afford it, you go to private school, or if you sue the school district, uh, you, you go to private school, maybe. But how's it in Ireland?

So, so generally here we do have options. So there's not a lot of paid-for schooling here. It's all generally state-run, but there's different levels. So you've grammar schools, you've secondary schools, so you've all sorts. So generally everyone has an option of probably maybe 3, 4, or 5 different schools to go to depending on your academic level, depending on, you know, location, things like that. So several factors. So there's options.

Wow.

To answer your question.

Will that pigeonhole you into something when you're out of that? If you go to one school, are you sort of Well, this, you see, that's, that's where it is.

And I think that's where a lot of parents and people who have the experience look back and saying, if I put you into this primary school, that increases our chances of going to this preferred secondary school, which then dovetails you who are, who is good at some, good at sport or good at math or good at whatever. They have a particular aptitude for a certain subject or, you know. The, you know, because people here, they publish the results of schools, right? So it's like a league table. So this is the best school, they've got the best results, whatever.

Yeah.

So of course then people then flock to the ones that have the highest achievements. What they don't look at is saying, how has it performed, you know, how has it served the child best? And saying, how has the institute actually passed on the best number of exams, you know, on this test? You know, so is that a fair indication of the schooling? Well, it's, it's a method of scoring it, right?

Yeah, it's a method.

How about in Ireland, do they tend to understand learning differences like dyslexia?

For me, it was pretty much non-existent. It wasn't picked up at all. Yeah, I think it was, it was probably borderline enough that it was, um, not really picked up. Pretty much that's all. I don't remember it ever being mentioned.

Yeah.

I think situations and times have changed, because ironically what has happened for me, and like I said, it was only— I was only properly diagnosed in the last 4 years.

Yeah.

I had suspected, it was almost like a running joke, but my niece was diagnosed, and it was picked up in her primary school, so she was about 9, I think it was, And I saw the procedure they had to go through. So my understanding was, I have 3 young girls, so I thought, well, if they know that I have it, then it's going to expedite the process if we have to cross this bridge, that actually if I've been properly diagnosed, then if we have to get them tested, it's going to, you know, it's going to reinforce and it's going to speed the process up. So I did it more for that. I did it for my girls to actually understand. What I've learned and what it's done for me since then has been exponential.

Yes.

We'll not get ahead of ourselves, but that's, you know, I mean, I went, you know, what's that, sort of 35 years of my life, more, 37 years of my life not knowing. It was kind of like a running joke, but it was and it wasn't. And when it's not properly diagnosed, it sort of, it almost gets washed away. It's like, yeah, you're just, I'm just a bit tired today or a bit lazy, or, you know, just never really learned to do it properly or whatever. Right. So, Um, because it doesn't have a label, if you believe in labels. Some people don't even believe it, so, but it's a whole different ballgame.

Could I ask a personal question about that? Um, so I, I talked to a lot of adults who will talk about their schooling and they feel embarrassed and they feel stupid and they feel ashamed, um, maybe because they weren't performing like the other children in the school. Was that— how did you feel as an adult looking back on your school?

Duck out of water, best way to describe it. Um, you know, am I proud of my schooling career? No, you know, but it was against me from the start, right? You know, and I just say it was just not the right school for me.

Yeah.

Um, wasn't for lack of want. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've met lifelong friends. But the problem is I compensated through other methods. So it could be anything from cheating, it could be anything from, you know, getting help, getting extra support and tuition for it.

Yeah.

You know, even, you know, my grades, you know, what would have happened? My mother passed away when I was 17, so our final sort of leaving exams through secondary school, I don't know what grades I was on, but I can tell you the grades I got weren't brilliant. Now what happened was, again, this method of compensation, you know, that my parents and my father at the time, then so we went to universities with grades much below par of the entrance of that particular subject. We went in, but it went in with a letter of compassion also. So it was another, like ironically, and I don't say this lighthearted, but it was, you know, it's almost like, I know the grades are really poor, But actually it was extreme and unfortunate circumstances. So once again, I was actually then pigeonholed into a subject, which ironically, I probably by all normality shouldn't have been. I shouldn't have been there. Now, I know it was extreme circumstances, but I do sometimes wonder, it's like, what if that sort of support and that help from others hadn't been provided, that I was supported as a person as opposed to—

Yeah.

He's a really smart guy, or somebody fighting my case and, you know, sort of not begging me up, but I mean, just really sort of pushing my corner, as opposed to saying, let's see where you go. Where does he want to go? What is his thing? Where does his natural vibe— what's his natural strengths and things? As opposed to going, I know if he goes to this school, then he has a better chance of doing this than if he does this. And then after that, it's on his own. We've done everything we can possibly do to support him.

Yeah.

You know, and that was the old school, right? You know, it's like, God, I reared you up, I, you know, educated you, I did everything else, and then you went out in the world and you let me down.

Yeah.

Well, funny that, because you were destined to fail at the very start because it wasn't, it wasn't you, it was your parents' life or somebody else's life and expectations.

Yeah.

You were doomed from the start. So a very long answer to your question, Lisa.

No, I think it's terrific. And then, um, my other question is, as an adult, and you went through your, um, Your midlife opportunity, I love that, instead of crisis. Can you explain what happened there a little bit?

Sure. I mean, I got to a stage in our life, we lost a business and I couldn't have been working any busier and harder at that time. And I literally, you know, when you lose a business and there's so much going on, it's like this boiling pot and it's just the disconnect because I'm part of my life, I'm saying, I can't work any harder.

Yeah.

And yet you're losing a business at the same time. And then we just had our first daughter. So, I mean, anyone that has young kids knows sleep deprivation, everything else. I mean, that's enough to send anyone crazy. I don't care who you are.

Yeah.

You know, you've that on top, and then you've got this little voice of going, you're capable of more. You know, and then going back to this school report, which funny, I brought up in a coaching session recently, That whole statement is, could do better if he worked harder, or if he applied himself. That's on just about every one of my bloody school reports. And I actually now am saying, please do not ever write that on someone's school reports, you know, because that is a judgment on someone.

Yeah.

And it's not a constructive statement. It's, I can never, you know, could do better if he applied himself. Well, there's no end to that statement.

Yeah.

You know, God almighty, I could give Usain Bolt a run for his money if I applied myself.

Yeah.

Yeah, but I didn't, and I haven't, and I couldn't. So the language we use, but I mean, you know, where I am now, I'm going through that. It took me to have the breakdown to have the breakthrough. Literally, it came for me down to one night, literally sitting on the side of my bed rocking backwards and forwards. Turns out what it was was toothache, and I'm still missing that tooth to this day. But I started grinding my teeth that hard in the night. Now, I'm not a teeth grinder. I literally was clamping down on my jaw that hard. And just this tooth took bad, basically. And I'm sitting here at 2 o'clock in the morning. I'm not making a sound because the baby's in the room sleeping. And it's like, you know, don't for God's sake wake the baby. I'm just rocking backwards and forth. There's pain and there's just this loss. And I'm just sitting here going, I can't do wrong for right. I'm trying my hardest. I can't work any harder. You know, and yet I'm stuck, and I'm, you know, there's people not, you know, smarter than me, and not as smart as me, doing 10 times better than me, and all that, and I just, I'm just, it's all swirling around. I was lucky enough the next morning, literally, I picked up the phone to the dentist and says, I've got it, you know, I need to come see about this tooth, and they happened to have a 15-minute slot, so literally in the car, down there, And it was like, oh, well, this was 2 days before Christmas. And she was like, listen, and she wasn't my regular dentist, she was on holiday already, and says, listen, we can do it, but we can't, you know, it's going to take 2 weeks before we can do treatment on the tooth. And I was saying at that point, it's like, you probably don't understand what I'm saying right now. One of 2 things is happening today. Either you're taking this tooth out or I am. I am deadly serious about this. I had come to that point, that rocking backwards and forward in the dark, You know, how was my turning point in saying, listen, enough is enough? There's so much broken, and I'm so sick of taking on the responsibility of not applying myself, not trying enough. Just this disconnection, this lack of coherence between who I am and the congruencing of me as a person and where I was and who people thought I was and all the different versions of me. And it just, it was just like, enough, take the bloody tooth. And she was looking at me and all that, and I was like, I swear to God, either you take it or I am. And she knew from that point, and literally 15 minutes later that tooth was out. It was at that point I'm saying, I have to change.

Yeah.

You know, and it's, you know, really what happened over the next 12 months is one was sitting down and getting my dyslexia— I didn't see the ADHD thing coming, but the dyslexia diagnosis was was given, you know, by a local psychologist through the dyslexia assessments. And then, like I said, the ADHD is like, well, that was a bit left field, but it makes a hell of a lot of sense. Knowing that and sort of saying, you know, the best analogy she probably gave me, this local psychologist and this local doctor, had sort of said to me, it's not that you can't read or write, it's just what's happened is it's just something you're never really going to do for leisure or pleasure because It's— there's an extra process. This is, you know, you're capable because you can write, right? I mean, it kind of looks like child's writing, but it's— I can write. But what's happened is, and especially when they do the IQ test with the dyslexia assessment, is I am extremely high in visualization and creativity and interpretation. However, in reading and writing, I'm below average.

Yeah.

But what's happened is my visualization skills and my creativity skills Exactly. Has compensated for them. So what happens is, you know, you give me a pen and a big whiteboard sheet and I'll go crazy and I'll draw pretty diagrams and I'll do this and, you know, I can 3D visualize, I can do all these amazing things. Ask me to sit down and read a couple of pages in the book, I will have made the, you know, 5 cups of tea and cut the grass instead of, you know, reading the book. I'll do anything but. So Even that understanding, because as the doctor was explaining to me, he's going, do you ever find that, you know, I did this when I was— I worked in a large corporate firm in London and was very successful at it. So what would happen is I would have a 1-hour meeting and then I would take about 3 hours to actually write up the notes.

Yeah.

You know, and at the time you kind of go, it's just, oh, just something I have to do. I'm just a wee bit slow at typing or whatever it is. But the way I would achieve that is by working sort of 10-hour days.

Yeah.

So nobody spotted it.

Yeah.

And even me.

Yeah.

I'm just, you know, because everyone's going, God, you're— and when I focused on it, and I really focused on it by cigarettes, coffee, and lack of sleep, is I would be able to come up with all these notes. And everyone's going, it's really comprehensive notes. You know, because there's almost like a perfectionism in there too when you focus on it.

Yeah.

But the problem is, is going, yeah, but it's this— I'm just using the wrong language.

Yeah.

Whereas if I fast forward where I'm at today, is all my meetings that I do, especially through Zoom, is going— there's a little record button there. And by the way, I'll send you the transcript, I'll send you this, because don't expect me to take notes. It's just not my passion, it's just not my thing, you know. But there's plenty of software, there's plenty of other things out there that will do that for me.

And it's certainly not your strength.

It's not my strength, and that's okay.

That's right. Yeah.

You know, it's like, because there's two sides. I mean, sometimes, you know, your weakness can be your strength too, right?

Yeah.

You know, because when you learn some of the things that you're not good at, it's either something you'll either focus on or you'll delegate it to somebody else. Fantastic. You know, it's, what does it call it? Kintsugi. Kintsugi in the Japanese pottery where they celebrate the breaks, right? So instead of trying to do this, invisible glue and make it sort of look like it's not broken. They use gold to celebrate the breaks. So you see this pottery with beautiful gold veining through it, you know, that's been broken and shattered, but yeah, it's got this beautiful gold veins and all that. Celebrate the breaks, celebrate the weaknesses and flaws and restrengthen them, right? So it's like, you're not broken, you're not, you know, you're not sort of tagged special or different. Congratulations, you're creative.

But Pete, what, at what moment did you then not feel like a duck out of water? What was it that shifted your, your, your thinking into celebrating who you are as opposed to feeling like a duck out of water?

It actually wasn't long after that assessment, the ADHD and the dyslexia assessment. See, having that piece of paper, I didn't expect it. I was doing it for my girls and going, listen, it's just an admin thing, and it's just formalizing what I've kind of always suspected. But the way it was explained to me, and that, like I say, it's just going, You're just going to be better at certain things than others. And it's like anything. And because of saying, you know, you're always going to be very auditory, so you'll listen. I have no problems listening. And then when I actually applied that, because I was sort of saying, you know, listen, I haven't read a book in 5 or 7 years. You know, in fact, I could probably count on one hand the number up to the age of 37.

Mm-hmm.

One, maybe two hands, the number of books I'd read from school. After that assessment, on the first year, I listened to over 70 books on Audible at high speed. So I went from pretty much nothing to 70 books. And it just goes to show us that if you get the right language or the right application with anyone, it's possible.

It's transformative.

Totally, totally. And I wanted to do it.

Yeah.

Thank God, I was living, breathing it. I was going for walks for fun.

Yeah.

Imagine that. I was going for walks for fun because it gave me more listening time.

Yeah.

And even that, a simple little technique. And with the ADHD, it was a beautiful thing someone explained to me and saying, with that, the likes of you could do it on YouTube, you do it on Audible, I'm sure all the audio platforms, is you can listen to it at a higher speed. If it's too low, I get bored. If it's too high, I get frustrated. When I find the right speed that that particular narrator speaks at, it's like it just is poured like a funnel straight into my head because it doesn't annoy me, slow me down, whatever. It's just like they're talking straight into my brain. And I'd say that to anyone, find the speed that's right for you. And it's a game changer because people say, yeah, I go, but I get bored and I switch off and I'm looking here and Whereas if you up the speed, not too much that you're not listening, but you find the right speed. So it's the same thing, but just in a different application.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

I don't care if you eat the book, if you listen to the book, if you read the book, I don't care what you do. Right. It's got to be a good thing. Learning how you learn. That's been a massive thing for me. Learn how you learn. And people don't. I don't care if you've got dyslexia or you don't have dyslexia. Learn how you learn. What is your preferred method of communication? Are you visual, auditory, kinesthetic? You know, what's your intake, your preferred mode? You know, so, sorry, I'm ranting, but hopefully that makes sense.

No, I think that's— I love listening to this whole story. A lot of your story sounds just like my husband's story. And when my husband found out that he's dyslexic, his self-confidence— now, he always seemed self-confident. He was very good at projecting that to people, but inside he felt a sense of inferiority when it came to language-based things. Once he realized that there was an actual name to where the struggle was, but more importantly, the strengths that came with that for him, you know, now when he's reading through an email, used to be he would have to read through it a bunch of times and, you know, wasn't his strong point. He would feel bad. Now he's, he just, you know, it is what it is. That's not my thing. But what he does in his career, he's very, very good at. And this, the self-esteem is the thing that I see to be super important with these types of learners in a system that doesn't understand them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I really enjoyed your story so far. I think it's fantastic.

That weight, and it kind of goes back to what Lois was saying at the start, you know, that weight of trying to be and the energy it takes to be something you're not. It's totally different when you find something that you are. Like I say, I mean, to go to listening to 70 audiobooks, I mean, that's not something you do for, you know, that's not just like a habit thing. That's something you do because you love. It's a passion.

Yeah.

And that's the difference.

Yeah.

You know, but the letting go, as you say, with your husband, Oh God, I forgive myself for so what? For so much, you know? And I'm going, listen, I mean, I look back and it's going, the tragedy in having kids now, the tragedy of somebody feeling that way because, you know, feeling suicidal because it's like, you know, I just, I can't do wrong, do right for doing wrong.

We bring this up and people don't really think that that actually happens. They say, oh, they were feeling this way from something else. And we're saying no.

Yeah.

They're coming through a system where they're failing daily.

Yeah.

People don't take it seriously.

And we have failed them. The school system, the teachers have failed the child.

And the parents too.

Yes, and the parents.

Didn't know.

Yes, the parents didn't know. Believe me, that's a tough one.

Yeah, and that's why we're doing all of this, you know, obviously. So I really appreciate your story because sadly it's not unique in the things that you went through, the things that you felt. And it's, it's kind of, it's almost, well, I'm glad that people find out, you know, whatever age they are, but how great would it be if when they're in school we could explain, here's your strengths, this is who you are.

Yeah.

You know, make the best of your life because you're fantastic, instead of keep telling them what they can't do, what they can't do, what they can't do, and allowing them to have these Feelings of inferiority. It's, it's not right.

We've got a question for you, and I think you'll be able to answer it quite directly. How old are your daughters now?

So they are, uh, one is 5 and the twins are 2 and a half.

Oh, so the little ones. Because the question is, as a parent, what advice do you have for parents of students who are struggling?

Do you know what? And it's something that probably applies to me leaning into my passion, for me leaning into, you know, who I am now and how I've changed my parenting style. Even in— listen, I'm changing my parenting style daily.

Yes.

And the one thing is to listen, honestly. And it's like, you know, and I would classify myself when I'm in this focused concentration, certainly from doing the interviews, and I was I was lucky enough to have yourself on the interview, Lois, and it's that— it's, for me, it's a very focused time. But when you listen to someone and genuinely truly listen and you give them the time and the space, you hear them not just with your ears. You hear the language, you hear the tone, you hear the energy. And kids are no different.

Yeah.

You know, kids will actually tell you, you know, what makes me feel sad, what makes me feel happy. You know, and they don't forget. They're like little sponges. And it's so easy to come in, especially, I suppose, as a real male role model, is to come in almost and sort of going, I will solve your problems and I'll beat my chest. You know, and it's that thing of going, you know, the kid just wants you to play or they just want to do what they want to do. So celebrating who they are and trying to do that with a blank canvas. It's both hard and easy when you celebrate who they are. And listen, they may be the smartest kid in school, or then school mightn't be for them at all. You know, for goodness' sake, let them be who they are. You know, as opposed to then going, well, I failed my exams, so sure as hell I'm not going to let them fail their exams, and I'll tutor them, and I'll do this, and I'll do this. It gets to the point you've spent so much energy pushing that rock up the hill and kind of going, maybe that rock's just not supposed to be up there. You've done all these things when actually let them create. So I'm not saying not let them fail dangerously, but for goodness sake, let them find out for themselves. How many people said, I want my kids to never experience what I had to experience? And then you say, well, how far have you come in life? And so I've done really well. I've come from Rags to riches or whatever the situation is. But then I want to prevent my children from having that contrast, from having that understanding. You know, I don't want them to see the depth of what I saw. And then you just contradicted yourself, right?

Exactly.

It's because of the contrast is what drives you as much as it does.

Yes.

But yet you don't want them to have that. You want to shelter them from the pain.

Yeah.

And then you kind of go on, well, hold on, you can't really have both here, can you?

Yeah, just saying.

It's a very good point because it's very hard. I mean, you don't want kids to feel the level of pain at that early age. You really don't. But you know what, sometimes it just happens, doesn't it?

It happens. And, you know, there's a great little story and I'm sure you've seen it, you know, and it talks about, you know, good thing, bad thing, who knows. And it's a great little sort of like Lonesome Little Parable along the lines of, you know, the farmer has a son, um, and I'm gonna butcher it here now because I'm trying to remember it off the top of my head. But, um, long story short, you know, one day, you know, um, the horse breaks out of the field and the horse runs away. The neighbor comes in and said, that's terrible, bad news, you know. Um, but anyway, time goes on a bit, and anyway, the horse comes back, but the horse brings a load of friends with it, so they manage to trap Several horses. So the neighbor comes running back and saying, this is good news, you now have lots of horses. So all this, so anyway, that's fine. And then next thing, you know, the son decides to try and tame one of the horses, so gets on one of the horses, and lo and behold, falls off the horse and breaks his leg. Neighbor comes back and says, that's terrible news, that's really bad news, and that your son had broken his leg. Next thing, war breaks out, and then they come for actually to sign up young soldiers, and the son can't sign up because he's got a broken leg. Is that good news or is it bad news? The point of all this, it's all perception, right?

Yes.

So people see mental health, people see dyslexia, people see ADHD, they see it all as just like almost this, oh, I'm sorry you have that. And it's like going, do you know what? There's some of the most creative and beautiful people out there that have these things, because sometimes it is that kintsugi. It is that your weakness can be your strength. When we learn to be who we are as opposed to not being somebody else, then God Almighty, you can be the most powerful person you can be. Are we all going to be ballerinas? No. Are we all going to be Einsteins? No. That's okay. We celebrate who we're not as much as we celebrate who we are. I like that.

That's brilliant to me.

Celebrate.

You know, learn to be who we are. That to me, I think, is fantastic. And not to be putting down or put it on Facebook as a competition.

Yeah. Listen, the ego has so much to answer for. And I think it's both in who we are, and I believe the ego is actually as big as the conscious mind. You know, we are not our ego. We are not our mind. So that little voice in your head is not yours. You know, and these are the things people don't necessarily necessarily understand. But what I can tell you, even from— and you'll know this, Lois. I mean, I ask a lot of people on the show and saying is I probably get a very polarized view of the world because it's not everyone that wants to come onto a podcast and talk about their passion and their fire in their belly and things like that. But the one divisive question that I ask a lot of people that does tend to actually tell me if people are living with fire in their belly and saying is, do you like yourself and do you love yourself? Which sounds like a very strange question in some ways. I can tell you those people that talk about fire in the belly, they talk about passion being what fire in the belly is for them. Do I love myself? Absolutely. I love who I am, both my flaws and my weaknesses and my perfect— my perfections and my imperfections. They have just come to be okay with themselves, or they've come to be fascinated and delighted in the wonderment of themselves. And that's the difference. You talk to somebody else, do you love yourself? Well, not really. And, you know, God, that's a bit weird. And that sounds a bit up yourself, doesn't it? And you can feel them reeling in their own skin right in front of you. And you're kind of going, if you can't love yourself, not being funny, how am I going to love you? Because you're too busy trying to be multiple people, or, you know, you're stuck in the things that you're not as much as the things you are. You can't even, you know, I can feel the incongruency just coming across the microphone. And probably not surprisingly is that actually there are a lot of interviews that don't go live. People phone back the next day and say, listen, I know I said all these things and I was really delighted and you changed my life, but actually please don't publish it because I'm not ready yet. And that's okay too, you know.

Wow. Lisa, what are you thinking?

Well, I was just interested in which books that you've written. You mentioned that you've written some books. What topic, if you don't mind sharing a little bit?

Yeah, sure. So, um, I probably should be more organized than this, but so my main book was Be Heard to Be Rich: Listen to Your Inner Genius. Um, and that was really, for me, I mean, let's see, over 18 months we've interviewed— I say we, I've interviewed 400-odd people. And they're not light interviews, as Lois will tell you. I mean, typically it's a sort of a 90-minute type interview and we go deep, deep, deep. And that's a real— it's a joy for me because one is sharing that special moment with somebody. And my primary objective is to have more or less a special connection with somebody. If it's secondary, if we get an interview that we can share with the world, that's beautiful too. But it's very much a byproduct. So this was actually brought about by the technique, because people are saying, how are you getting people to share? Like, people are saying on air, they're going, I've not told anyone this, including my partner, and yet I've just, you know, just said it down a microphone and potentially going out public in the world, you know. And I have people— there's about 12 podcasts that have come off the back of this podcast, and there's people saying, listen, you've changed my life and done all these things. So for me, it was sitting doing the book. Now, it is kind of ironic. You kind of go, yeah, we're talking about dyslexia, and here's a guy that's written his own book, right? Well, a couple of things I've learned when recording a podcast and that and getting them transcribed. It turns out that we talk on average about 10,000 words in an hour. Okay, so you kind of go, well, that's quite a lot. And a book, I can tell you, that book is just shy of 300 pages, and there's just over 50,000 words.

Yeah.

So theoretically, I could talk this book in 5 hours. Now, it wouldn't be very good. It would need edited and all the rest. But my point is, people often think, God, you know, you need to go and sit in a log cabin and you need to have writer envy and you need to take 12 months off your life and you need to do all these amazing things. Well, I discovered there's no problem with the hole in the front of my face, that I can talk the book. And that's exactly what I did. So between the software that actually, as I spoke, I wasn't very good at doing solos. Some people can talk solo to a camera with nobody there. That's not my thing. So my lovely editor, she was basically— we would do interview style. She would ask me a question, I would go into my rant. We would do 90-minute sessions every week, and it was over pretty much 12 weeks. We did this, got them transcribed, and lo and behold, the book was pretty much—

That's simple.

Extracted from them. So the whole process from start to finish was under 6 months. And again, for all our sort of dyslexic and sort of ADHD friends in there, I developed a couple of characters in the book as well.

You can really see.

So pictures paint a thousand words, so we got little illustrations done as well for fun.

Yeah.

And I said again, sort of looking at the book. So it's purposely done in Arial. I can't remember the font size, but that is for dyslexics. That's the easiest font to read. I would love to have got it done in yellow paper, but that's—

Too hard.

Yeah, it's just Amazon don't do it yet. Yeah, because ironically, I do talks locally with schools, and that's one of the first things that I would say to them is that I have dyslexia and I'm also a multimillionaire. You know, and I don't say that to be facetious because I'm into property, so, um, but that's my point. In school, for God's sake, do what you want to do.

Yes.

You know, just because you have dyslexia doesn't mean it's like you're ruled out. In fact, it actually gives you an advantage because it, it helps you to narrow down what you're capable of and what you're, you know, refine who you are, you know. And in some ways, not having all the options is better than having every option. You know, because it actually, it helps the sort of the slowing down process a lot quicker. So, you know, getting the book out, and because the process has been there, I'm halfway through my second book, and I've also contributed to this book as well, and I've another couple of books as well, which is ironic coming from the dyslexic ADHD guy, you know. But again, when you find your flow, when you find your thing, that actually, I know I can do this, I can speak and have no problems. In fact, I'm actually better when I'm not prepared. It literally puts me into this flow state and I go through. So I'm learning how I learn. I'm learning how I perform, how I go into flow state best. And I found it's very similar for a lot of people, even people that say, oh, I prefer to write. The problem is the writing actually uses the subconscious mind. The intuition filters it through the conscious mind because you need that to then tell the hand And the I to remember or write down what you're thinking. So it actually slows down the process.

Yes.

So one of the reasons with the interviews and the Fire in the Belly is we go a bit longer is because the first half hour is typically conscious talk. So people will tell you what they want you to hear. And then literally you will see people lean back in the chair or they go, ah. And I know that's a sign that actually we've now moved into the midconscious. Where they're now relaxed in this environment, they know that they're safe and nothing crazy is happening, nobody's jumped out or nothing weird or wonderful is going on. So I know we've now moved into the mid-consciousness. There's a trust, there's a rapport, and they're feeling happy to share a lot more of their story. And then what typically happens around the hour mark is that actually people slip into almost subconscious behavior. And that's when we're thinking at the same speed that we're talking. And what happens there is people suddenly become very sharey. They more or less go, God, I hadn't thought about this, or, this has happened. And they're reflecting back on themselves. Hey, you know, I don't think I've ever told anyone that. That's weird, isn't it? What made me say that? And they're actually, they're talking to themselves.

Yeah.

But one is they've never had a chance to talk uninterrupted like that before. But two is also we've now cleared all the other baggage out of the way and suddenly they're now they're in that flow state and they're in their flow state. And that's the point when so many people say to me, oh, listen, I'll not talk for an hour. It's like, yeah, I know you're good for 2. We can all do it. We all have a flow state. We all have a passion. And when you trigger that and you enable that to happen, that's when we go in and our creativity comes out. And that, in a very long answer, is what the book is about, helping people to find when they are heard best, when they go into flow. And that's my observations from interviewing people.

So— That's wonderful.

That's fantastic.

Do you have— Lois, do you have any questions coming in at all?

Well, I'm just checking the time. You know, time just disappears. To me, the whole— your whole story, you know, shows how, you know, we can survive school, but it still leaves a mark. That we then have to come and come have our come-to-Jesus moment before we're able to move on and recognize there was a problem. And, you know, you just can't shove it under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist.

Yeah, it's— and then, you know what, it doesn't have to mean— people often apologize if they don't have this mad trauma, you know. It's like But I had everything in life, and it's like, I know I shouldn't complain, but something wasn't right. Or, you know, I didn't fall under a bus, but, you know, one day someone said something to me that was a bit nasty, and it's really stuck with me.

Hmm.

I look back now, and like I say, I haven't spoken to enough people. You sort of go, listen, I don't care if a bus run you over, or a young person, or somebody said to you that you look a bit funny. the impact can be the same. I don't care who you are and what you are.

Yes.

And that sticks with childhood.

Yes.

And I think, I genuinely believe around probably between the age of 5 and 7, it's the last point, unless you've had other things going on in your life. Between 5 and 7 is where you separate who you are and who you truly are, because the person of who you are then becomes the people pleaser. So you learn enough to mimic the world around you. if I do this, then this happens. If I do this, then they're pleased. If I don't do this, this happens. Now the problem is you've now separated, you know, because you've got societal expectations, you've got teachers, schools, parents, whatever else, all of, you know, you're a good girl if you pass your exam, you're a good girl. If you fail your exam, you're a bad boy, you know, all these things. But then, like I say, that literally, that separation between the two and that gap, that gap to me is the distance In who you are, and that just grows bigger and bigger and bigger. For me, that's a perfect sort of analogy of what happened to me. I got to 37 and a half years. The gap between who I truly was as a person and who I was that day was so big, it's like, I can't even, I don't even, I haven't a clue who I am. It's that big. I don't know how to close the gap. I don't know who I am. I don't know what I want. I don't know what makes my boat tick. I have nothing. Do I love myself? Well, I don't even know myself. How could I love myself?

Yeah.

Now, what people can do, and this is sometimes unfortunate, where people will take drugs or alcohol or other substitutes, sex, whatever it is, they'll do things because they'll get a temporary high or they'll temporarily close the gap a little bit. They have a few drinks and suddenly they're much more outgoing or they're doing all these things, or they'll take drugs and suddenly they get this euphoric high. Problem is they crash back down again. And until we can learn to close that gap as much as we possibly can, yeah, I'll always believe we'll always be outside of, you know, incongruent in who we are and who we're capable of being. So—

Well, you just answered the question that I didn't ask, and it was going to be for the adults who are stuck in this. I work with a lot of adults who have some of these problems, and I was going to ask you what advice would you give for them to get them unstuck, but you just answered it all. And it also sounds like your book would be something very helpful as well. That's really— I love this whole story. I'm glad that she came on with us.

I do too. I've really enjoyed it, you know. And, you know, you're numbing it. If you're either getting your highs and your lows, you're numbing it. You're not wanting to go into that level of pain.

Yeah. People run away from pain so much. Do you know, and funny, like some mentees I was talking to this evening and they're like, you know, listen, and someone did me wrong and it's like, you know what, I'm sort of moving over it, I'm a bigger person, I'm sort of forgetting it or I'm moving on. And you kind of go, for God's sake, don't forget your pain. It sounds totally counterintuitive. It's a bit like skiing. The most— the thing you want to do the most is lean back when you're skiing.

Yeah.

The worst thing you can do when you're skiing is lean back because you lose control.

Yep.

You know, so it's kind of one of those things of going, I know it's painful, I know it's pissed off, I know your ego is shouting at you. And bear in mind, you are not your voices in your head. But you're sitting there and going, you know, you almost need to— don't brush anything under the carpet, don't sort of say, listen, I'm going to chant so much that I'm going to forget all the negative stuff. It's like, for God's sake, it's going to come out somewhere. It's one big reservoir, and if you don't let it out, it's going to burst somewhere.

Yeah.

You know, and that's the one thing where it's trying to, you know, if writing a novel is not your thing, that's okay.

Yeah.

You know, if you're a liar and a cheat and all this thing, that's okay too, because they're all compensation mechanisms, you know. I mean, I spoke to somebody in a very, quite a moving podcast, and she was abused at the age of 7.

Yeah.

Now she went through everything in her life. She— alcohol abuse, drugs abuse, You know, divorce, all these sort of crazy, crazy things went on. At 47, she decided to more or less face the whole thing.

Yeah.

And it was only at that point that actually everything sort of clicked back together again. You know, she tried every possible thing to close the gap. This sort of voice that says, you're capable of more. You know, where it's like, this is not who you are, this is not who you are. And, you know, the silence is deafening, right? You know, it's that whole thing again, back to the school report. Could do better if you tried harder. It's like, what does that mean?

Yeah.

What does that mean? You're asking me to be something I'm not. That's an impossible target. There's so many things I want to be, you know. And I just— oh, it just drives me mad when people are going, you, you're following a false prophet, or you're following the dreams and goals, you're trying to please somebody externally. Please yourself. Please yourself and who you are. What brings you joy? What pisses you off? What delights you? What do you rant on about and you love to do? What do you not love to do? And just Hey, listen, all of it's okay. If being dyslexic and writing emails is not your thing, that's 100%, that's cool. It's great that you know that. You know, if knitting tea cozies and whatever is your thing, fantastic. Celebrate it all. You know, imagine if the whole world just did what they love to do. Wow.

Make a huge difference.

Oh, we need to clone you and put one of you in each school. And each psychiatrist's office. And I don't know, I think that's just excellent.

Well, thank you.

I got a lot from that.

It's— I mean, who I was 5 years ago, I tell you, I wouldn't have come on here. And that's kind of— that would be the message I'd like to say to anyone is, you know, by deciding to finding my method, you know, finding, you know, reading or listening to 70 books in a year, Talking to people on a podcast because you know what? You might learn something. That's what I that's what I my target for my podcast is to interview 504 people because in Think and Grow Rich, one of the most famous personal development books out there, they interviewed 504 people. So what if I interview 504 people? I'm sure I'm going to be a little learn a few things and be a little bit smarter from doing that. So that's my point again is learn how you learn. You know, if you sort of go, I love that, the 10,000-hour rule. It's, you know, be a raving amateur. It's like, don't turn up and say, God, I'm not the best at this, and saying, no, because I'm an amateur, I'm learning, but I'm going to be a really raving amateur, and I have 10,000 hours to get my act together and, you know, really do it. If you do something for 10,000 hours, I'm pretty sure you'll be a wiser person.

Fantastic. Pete, thanks for joining us on this show. This has been brilliant. Brilliant. And I've got to say thank you to my son Isaac and his buddy Chris, because without them this show wouldn't go on because I need technical support. Where can listeners find you? I think we've got your website in our show notes, but where can they find you?

Cool, thank you. Well, the easiest thing is to go to mightypeak.com. That's my main website. The book is available on all Amazon stores and all over the world, so it can be there. So it's Be Heard to Be Rich: Listen to Your Inner Genius. And yeah, and the Fire in the Belly podcast is available on all major podcast platforms. Thank you.

Obviously you've got to listen to more. Lisa, where can we find you?

Mostly on Facebook, Monday Afternoons with Lois, and LinkedIn sometimes.

And really, this is our last live broadcast because we've got next week will be a replay of premiere of Abby McCarroll And the following week, we're listening to Dr. Mary Helen Immortan-O'Young. Must listen. Brain Science, Emotions, and Learning.

Yeah, I've heard of her.

Anyway, hit the like, hit the subscribe button, share it with others so that they can hear our stories and our books and poems about dyslexic people. Find me on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, and my website is LoisLetchford.com. Anything else? My son keeps there and go, "Say this, say this, say this, say this, say this, say this," and I get lost.

Hey, thanks again. I really enjoyed our our discussion today. I got a lot out of it. I really thank you.

Thank you for coming on.

Thank you, Pete. Thank you.

Okay, thank you so much, and we'll see you next— we'll see you some next 2 weeks, otherwise next year.