When Learning is Trauma: Steve McCue, Lois Letchford, & Lisa McCarty

Welcome to When Learning Is Trauma with our guest Steve McHugh from— McHugh?

Yeah, yeah, McHugh, that's fine.

From Scotland. Steve, we're—

Glenrothes.

Sorry?

Glenrothes in Scotland.

Thank you. We're delighted to have you with us today. Lisa, welcome.

Hey everyone.

Steve is a dyslexic and inclusion specialists. He founded My Social Entrepreneur Dyslexic Pathways in 2008 to promote and support a social model of dyslexia through social enterprise. And there's lots more to say to that, but welcome, Steve.

Yep.

I'm delighted you've joined us because we connected through some of your blogs.

Yeah, yeah, just a few. I'm happy to be here, by the way. Thank you for inviting me.

Oh, I'm delighted. Could you tell us your story, or a part of your story, to begin with, please? So we know what—

Which part of it?

Which part of it? What brought you to where you are today? I know it's a long life, but what were some of the things that really pushed you to be where you are today?

I don't suppose primary school was— my primary school was a tale of 2 teachers. I had a really good supportive teacher and a real bad horrible teacher who was— I just remember she just behaved like a witch. But all I remember about teaching, of being a kid at school, was watching all the other kids doing their writing all nice and neat and me still stuck doing block capitals, writing very messy, not being able to keep up with things in school, um, because of that, like, you know, and always being, always being kind of, um, criticized for my, my handwriting. And, uh, and it was just— and, and it never got any better. Even when I was in secondary school, it never got any better. But I think I've— I think I basically survived primary school pretty well. It was when I got to secondary school when things started to go a bit awry. Again, my handwriting— sorry, go on.

And that was the quantity of work that you were given?

Yeah, quantity of work. I was struggling with— I was okay reading books, I used to read literature, but when it came to reading school books, I didn't have the same enthusiasm for, you know, an English book or War of the Worlds, a maths book, or The Midwich Cuckoos. I just didn't have the same enthusiasm for it. I just couldn't get myself through it. And, um, the other thing was the handwriting. Again, I just couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't do the handwriting thing. Um, so I got more and more frustrated. So by the time I was 14, I just basically stopped going to school. So I stopped going to school. And I started doing work, basically. I was a tree surgeon for a while. I did a milk round. Anything but go to school. It was just too much, really. And I just— I walked away from school thinking I didn't have an academic bone in my body and didn't have a very good opinion of my ability. I didn't even think I had any ability at that time, basically.

Steve, were you diagnosed when you were in— when before you were 14?

No, no, no, no, no.

So how does it work in Scotland? Do you— are they— do they test young? In America they do screeners, or supposed to do. Not really, they don't do dyslexia screeners well, but they do screen for certain difficulties.

Um, it doesn't work basically. I did some research not so long ago about, um, when adults got assessed as dyslexic, and only 19% of the adults that responded said they were assessed at school. So that's what, 71% of dyslexic adults leaving school maybe not even knowing, not assessed, feeling like a loser?

Yeah.

Maybe getting into trouble, all the usual things that can happen when you're dyslexic and, you know, you have a troubled schooling. Because it just basically fails young people and kids and it's not good enough, it never has been good enough. Yeah, and I think that's probably— I think dyslexics have a strong sense of injustice and I think part of that comes from the fact that we face so much injustice in our lives early on.

Steve, I've got a question about your social development as well. When you were in school, did you actually have friends?

Uh, yeah, I've got— I had a couple of friends that I still talk to now.

That's fantastic.

Yeah, 2, 2 good friends. But most of the time I was the class clown. A typical, typical kind of thing, like, you know.

Yes.

Make yourself, you know, just— and I, I— it's just an Aquarian sense. I put it down to an Aquarian sense of humor.

But—

Well, I have another— oh, sorry, go ahead.

Oh, no, no.

I have another question about that. So this— the friends that you had in school, Were there certain different types of groups? Like you had your jocks or your athletes, and then you had your studious students, and you had your class clown troublemakers, kids that were getting into drugs and alcohol. Which group did you gravitate to?

I just had my 2 good friends, and the only other thing I used to do was play football, maybe. And when I got old enough, It's horrible to say, but I used to chase girls. I can't, I can't, you know, I'm just, you know, I wasn't a smoker. I didn't want to get into— I wasn't much of a person to get into trouble, really, you know. So the trouble thing came later. So yeah, I wouldn't say— I had these 2 good friends I still talk to occasionally now, and the rest of people were kind of People I knew, not really good friends at all, like people to play football with, people in the class that I used to sit next to maybe, and that changed on a class-by-class basis.

You weren't bullied or made fun of for any of that, were you?

Uh, no, no. Uh, somebody tried, but, um, I'm afraid, uh, yeah, it didn't work.

So after you, you left school with obviously no qualifications, what's the next part of the journey?

Well, I did a lot of, um, I did a lot of kind of, um, physical jobs like, uh, working in a builder's yard, um, electrician's mate, anything that I could do, you know, it wasn't— didn't involve any kind of any kind of paperwork. But generally what happened was I'd go into a builder's yard, I'd work very well with the clients and customers, and then somebody would come along and say to me, right, Steve, you're very good at doing this job, why don't you come and work in the office? So I'd go and work in the office and I would crash and burn.

Yeah.

Because I just couldn't do the paperwork, I couldn't keep myself organized, and it just, you know, just was a bit of a nightmare really.

Yeah.

And so in the end, I stopped doing that and I did the music thing and I became a musician, basically my own boss, and kept away from that kind of thing because it wasn't very healthy for me.

Yeah.

And so when did you find out or discover you were dyslexic?

I became a schoolkeeper, funnily enough.

Right.

That's like a caretaker, and when I became a caretaker, the council sent me on a course, a day release course. So I went to do the day release course doing all my basic skills, and I found I could learn. So after I did that, I left my job altogether and went on a full-time course which got funded from the local Parish, and that got me into university. It was when I was in my second year of university that I was— somebody said to me, I think you might be dyslexic, go along and we'll pay for your assessment. And that's, that's how I found out that I was.

What's the schoolkeeper exactly?

A caretaker, basically. A janitor, a janny.

Oh, okay, I'm sorry, I was thinking as a nurse, I'm thinking a caretaker In a different sense. I, I see now. Okay.

A school janitor.

Cleaning, nothing too glamorous. Cleaning toilets, sweeping playgrounds, picking up sick, you know, all that kind of stuff. That's what you do when you're a janny.

Yeah.

I always have to ask about the social-emotional part of this though. So you're 14 and you leave school, and before that you said you had some teachers that were horrible.

Yeah.

And some teachers that were, I guess, kind or helpful.

Yeah.

But through all this, up until 14, how are you feeling about yourself?

Not very good. I was slowly getting to be an angry young man, starting to run around in a gang a bit at my local area, um, feeling like a misfit, feeling like a loser. Not very academic at all. I didn't think I had an academic bone in my body, so I just couldn't see any reason to be at school.

And you didn't see any special talent that you had at that point? That came later?

Yeah, well, I knew I was— I knew I had a musical ability, but there was no way to express it.

Gotcha.

Yeah, there was no way to really do anything with it.

And as the class clown, and I guess you were Entertaining everybody. When did that stop? Or do you still do that? I don't know.

No, I kind of still— I've kind of got an off-the-wall sense of humor, which kind of drives my wife mad. But there you go, that's just me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I can't help myself. These things blurt out for no reason, and I have to hold myself back a lot of the time.

But do you think that started as a result of your anxiety in school, if you had to think back?

I don't know. It just— I think it was just the way I evolved. I don't think I made a conscious decision to do it. It's just the way I evolved. And I think the humor— I think the sense of humor thing comes from Right, not from my dad, but it's within my family. When you look back, you can see there's a, you know, but I mean, it might well have been that I think maybe I had to do something so I didn't look stupid all the time.

Because it's a common thread. I have my middle son, he's, he has a similar story to yours, and he's wickedly funny, um, but it tended to get him in trouble in school because he was struggling. And he was using his humor in school. So I was just curious if that filtered over into your adult life, that, that type of personality where you feel like you have to entertain people, or that's just a talent that you have?

Um, I thought— I, I think I just feel I need to entertain people. I think it, I think it, it gets me away from, um, Anxiety and nervousness. I think it's part of anxiety energy and nervous energy, and it has to go somewhere. Um, and the things that I say just come out of my head, and they just seem to be naturally funny.

Yeah, yeah, that's— that seems to be a commonality that I see. So I— that's why I was curious if you thought maybe that started when you were in your schooling years because you felt a little bit, uh, different in school.

Yeah, I think so. I think so. You had to— I wasn't very good at the literacy and the numeracy. I had to try and be good at something, and I think the humor just was something that I could make people laugh, you know, and it was easy to do, so why not?

So after you— so at 14, take us through what happened again. You leave school, you were doing physical jobs, a lot of different jobs. kind of just trying to find your way, and then you get to be a janitor.

Yeah.

And then because you're— then they sent you to, to, um, a course.

Yeah, I was doing music and a janny, and, and then the, the— it was called the Inner London Education Authority I worked for, and they were very keen on providing, um, educational opportunities. So I decided to have a go at doing it again just to see if I wasn't completely stupid. And I found out, um, on the courses that I did— I did all these basic skill things— and I found out through that that I could learn.

What was different that time?

Um, I, I, we went into— I went into a class where they were all adults and they all kind of, um, had the same kind of background where they didn't do too well at school. And we were a very tight, friendly group and we all supported each other and we all helped each other. We would even go into uni, into college on our holidays, like, you know, to have a talk. And so it was a really, um, a really tight group. And the college I went to the students were— the teachers were, you know, were really quite good as well. So, and of course, and of course, I'd still struggled with the handwriting, but I wasn't, I wasn't, um, I didn't feel it was, um, holding me back. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

They would give me extra time to write. And, um, also I started getting into computers and the computer keyboard, and that took me— I didn't have to worry about the handwriting so much then. because people wouldn't be able to judge me on my handwriting, which is what was happening. You know, my handwriting looked like a 4-year-old's, 5-year-old's, and people would naturally assume you was as thick as a brick, like, you know what I mean?

I'd just like to point out, because again, this series is entitled When Learning Is Trauma, and from what I'm hearing is in your schooling days before you were 14, you felt anxious for feeling different, not keeping up in the classroom, Now you're out of school, you try it again, but this time you're in a setting where your anxiety, I would guess, was lower because you're around people that you're saying are not judging you because they're kind of the same type of learners. And you're not, you know, when you're not so anxious, I think it's easier for these kids to learn. And that's an important point that Lois and her sister, you know, Lenore, talk about all the time. I just wanted to point that out just to be clear that that's a big problem for these kids. Yeah.

Yeah.

Without the support and understanding of why they're struggling.

Yeah, and at the time I didn't know I was dyslexic, but I think because it was— I see dyslexia can hit us at any stage in our learning. There comes a stage where, um, you get to a stage where your, your strategies that you've kind of learned yourself start to fall apart. And then you have to try and find new strategies, but because you're dyslexic, you can't find the new strat— do you know what I mean? You don't know why it's happening, you just know it's happening, and you can't find the new strategies.

Yeah, that's a good point.

You know what I mean? And I, I quite— I kind of say that dyslexia is like getting a punch in the nose from the Invisible Man. You feel the effects if you're not assessed, but you just don't know where it comes from.

Or how to deal with it.

Or how to deal with it, yeah, if you don't know why, how can you deal with it? And then, and that just exacerbates all the emotional problems that can come with being dyslexic, the frustrations.

Yeah, yeah, and there's no one pointing you in another direction to say, try this, do that, to me, you know, what I'm hearing, what happened to you, Is what happened to me is you're just isolated. When I went to college, you just—

Yeah, it wasn't so much at that college, that college was okay because we're such a tight-knit group. It was when I went to university that it kind of, the dyslexia things sort of, you know, started to really impinge on me and bring back all the negative feelings I had from school.

Trauma is the word, Trauma, yeah, yeah.

And it was like, I was, I was in an inner London college where everyone was like me, and then I went to this— I got into this really posh university and everybody was— I was 35, everyone else was about 17 or 18, so that's hard enough.

Yes.

And then, and then, you know, uh, the college, the university that I went to was clearly not the right college for me because, you know, they were— they had, um, This was in Wimbledon, so it was a very posh university, and now I was a Cockney London lad, like, you know, and it wasn't, it wasn't, it just wasn't a good fit. And my humour wasn't, my humour wasn't, shall I say, acceptable. The lecturers didn't, didn't, didn't like my humour.

Yeah, yeah. How did you survive that then?

Sorry?

How did you survive through those years?

I think the first year was the tough year because, I don't know, I think it's determination again. I think dyslexics tend to be determined, very determined, and I made a couple of friends. Again, it was all about having a couple of friends. I generally make friends, and so as long as I had friends, a bit of a kind of scaffolding around me, You know, even though it was tough, it wasn't impossible, but I still struggled with my handwriting. They didn't have computers at the unit— well, they did have computers, but you didn't have that much access to the computers again. And in my first year, I failed one of the exams, and one of the remarks was, how do you expect to pass any exams at all when you're writing like this? You can't be fast enough to pass an exam. And that was all they said.

Yes.

They didn't sort of say, well, let's move you on, let's see if there's an issue or not, you know. So as a result, I said to myself, I'm not going to— I'm going to go to— I went to a different university because I had to resit the first year. And I went to the— and the first thing they said was, look, maybe you're dyslexic, go along and get an assessment. And I was, and that's when I got access to Disabled Students' Allowance. They got me a computer, they got me the software. Yeah, it was liberating. The computer— personally, I think that the computer keyboard for me was the liberating piece of technology because I could write without being judged by my handwriting. Yeah, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

I have to butt in again, um, just because, uh, and you know I do that all the time, um, for where I work, um, we assess clients for different skills. And one of the things— or let me say that again. The counselors will work with the clients and they'll, they'll know their education background, for example. And I think people don't quite understand what dyslexia is, and a lot of people think it has to do with reading backwards, seeing things backwards. A lot of the clients will, and it always raises a red flag for me when it says that the client has like one year of college or didn't finish college, and people don't quite understand the impact that that learning problem has on people, and they figure, well, since they've gone to college, they clearly can't be dyslexic. And I find that that's a red flag because sometimes these people find— get to college, and it sounds like, as you're saying, then they don't have support, or if they don't understand why they're struggling, they get frustrated and they leave.

Yeah.

And, and that sort of thing. I just wanted to point that out because I think there's still such a misunderstanding as to what dyslexia is. And then, um, with the handwriting, for example, I don't think people understand that you're— you get out into the world and now you're expected to fill out applications, and that really, that really destroys self-esteem. How did you— now you mentioned the computer was a big—

Yeah.

Was liberating for you, but how do you feel now if you were to go and fill out an application? How would you Feel explaining that to somebody?

By hand?

Yes, by hand.

I wouldn't do it.

If you had to do that, would you be able to explain to the person? Do you have a— how would you handle that?

Now, now I would, because I can self-advocate for myself. Yeah, but as a, as a, as a younger version of me, before I was assessed, I didn't know why I couldn't do it. Yeah, do you know what I mean? You just— I didn't know why I couldn't fill out this form.

Yeah.

Why it just looked like a piece of crap, you know, and, you know, so the reason, the problem was that I, you know, when I first left school and tried to get jobs, I didn't know that I was dyslexic, I didn't know why my handwriting was crap, and then what I did was I went for jobs where you didn't have to do application forms, like I said, worked in builders' yards, did tree surgeon, and, you know, just wandered into jobs where they'd say, you know, all you needed to do was be able to lift up a log or a cement bag, and that's all they wanted you to do. Do you know what I mean? So I didn't have to fill out an application form.

I just wish more of the counseling world, for example, could understand that. I think they're going to eventually, but I don't think it's talked about enough as to why adults seem to have less opportunity. And I think that's one reason. They are— they don't understand it They don't feel self-confident and there's nobody around them that can help with that, to advocate for them as you did.

Yeah.

Lisa, I think you, you brought out a point about failing college too. I think there's lack of recognition how much people work in school and in college to get these average results. And then like you get to college And really there's just a step up in level that now you are totally overwhelmed.

Or, or you go back to the remedial once you get into college. I don't know how it works in Scotland, but in America you can get into college, but there's certain entrance exams that you have to be proficient in certain things to take whatever course you're going to take. And if they find that your, your writing skills or your math skills are low, they'll put you in a remedial course. Now think of what that does to a kid that's been maybe in remedial courses their whole schooling career. Now they're in college and back in remedial courses, and a lot of people feel frustrated by that, and that's where they would give up.

Yeah.

When I worked in one college as a dyslexia— I ran the department. What happens was that when students come along to enroll in courses, and then they're given tests, and then depending on the results of their tests, they would then be put into, you know, if their English and maths was high enough, they could go into a certain level. But what they were finding was there were students or young people coming in who couldn't even really pass the lowest level, and they're basically told to bug off, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And it's not good enough. So I put together a proposal and Sorry, I don't really want to talk about all these things because it's me talking about me.

I want to know how you got to a place from dropping out at 14 to what you do now, because I, I wish you could explain. Maybe you can explain what it is you do now and how you got there.

Um, well, like I said, I was lucky enough. The first start was this getting a grant from the Diocese of Southwark, and I just went on a journey. I had no idea where I was going. I didn't have, yeah, I want to go to university in mind. I just started on the journey. And as luck would have it, I got to university and I managed to get through my degree. I managed to get over all the, all the, all the, all the hurdles. Um, I managed to, um, you know, when that lecturer told me about my handwriting, I felt like giving the guy a good punch in the nose.

Yeah.

Because that devastated me, that remark. And that remark, the feeling of that still stays with me today.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? That feeling of being told—

You're not good enough.

You're not good enough. Do you know what I mean? And I knew in my own mind that I was good enough to do these things.

Yeah.

But it was such a devastating— that stays with me.

Yes.

And of course, we're such emotional— we, you know, we've got this emotional intelligence and empathy, and we're so driven by that, I think. dyslexics, that, that, that's where the trauma comes from for most of us. Does that make sense?

Absolutely, yes, I think that makes sense.

Yeah, certainly makes sense. And so, like I said, if I, if I hadn't been assessed as dyslexic, I would never have known the reason why. And, um, you know, once I was assessed and got to understand myself as a dyslexic and how I learned and how I did things, You know, I was able to move forward and be able to kind of put my early school and those remarks into some kind of context. But for so many, we don't get the opportunity to do that. We have to live with all that— that you talk about trauma, the trauma— for the rest of our lives without knowing.

Yeah.

Why that— why we're experiencing that trauma.

Yeah, it's important that you said that. Yeah, that's why we're doing this. We want to hear people's experiences. And then how do we help?

Yeah, so like I said, I didn't have any great vision, you know, I just, I just went along. So when I started, I went back in 1988, I think, and then I left uni. I did 7 years, 8 years full-time education and, and was lucky enough to come away with my degree and my, my postgraduate in teaching, and I've no idea how I did that. hard work, and I didn't set out with that grand vision, do you know what I mean? Yeah, just a journey. And, um, yeah.

So, so on this journey then, you got supports for specifically for dyslexic learners, or how did—

Like, we got, we got, we got— when you get assessed at university you get— you're able to apply for what they call Disabled Students' Allowance, or we are able to, and that is money that's given to you to buy things like a computer.

Oh, okay.

And to buy things for your paper and also to pay for like additional tuition, which is something I didn't get on with. I didn't like the— I didn't want to be in a room on my own with what I saw as a teacher and have all those horrible feelings of— because my relationship with teachers wasn't exactly, at secondary school, wasn't exactly positive. And that teacher-me relationship carried on all the way until even when I first started working as a teacher myself.

So what teaching did you do?

Well, when I was at university, I did this, I did I volunteered as a mentor in primary schools, and that's when I started working with young kids with dyslexia and the like. And that gave me the idea to go and do this postgraduate in inclusive education.

Yeah.

And I did a year of that.

Yeah.

Which was fun. And I managed to become a teacher. And then 2 years later, I carried on with my— I just got into this study thing. And I went on to do this dyslexia thing. And like I said, I didn't have a great vision for it. I just— it just— things seemed to just fall into place, really.

So what ages were you teaching then? Did you start out with?

Well, I wanted to be a primary school teacher.

Yeah.

So I tried primary school teaching and I didn't have the— I didn't have the discipline to do it. I clearly didn't have the discipline, believe me. I was working in one school where the teacher left me with a group of 34, 35 kids and there was a thunderstorm outside and they just ran wild and they wouldn't listen to me and I couldn't control— very little control over their movements.

Oh, okay.

Heads and stuff like that. And also for what they call disaffected kids. So, um, like I would work with, um, kids, young people who were experienced, had negative experiences, you know, been in trouble with the police. And it was things that, that interested me. Yes, because of the— I felt it was injustice. Now, our kids, kids never fail adults. It's adults that fail kids.

With that population, did you tend to pick out any dyslexic tendencies? I would think you would be able to pick that out quicker than a regular teacher who doesn't have experience with that.

Yeah, you get a feeling for it, I think, a sense. Yeah, and I would imagine with the tetraplegic kids, because their, their, their issues were much more profound with their learning, so it was the the issue became, how do I problem solve enabling somebody who is a tetraplegic with no control, how do I enable them to do chemistry? How do I enable them to do science? How do I enable them to do all kinds of different subjects in a way that they'll be able to access the curriculum?

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and I love doing that because I'm a good— I like problem solving very much. I'm a very enthusiastic problem solver. But then when I started working with what they call disaffected young people, Then you kind of get— I kind of got a feeling because they'd kind of been through the same kind of thing as me, you know, and only they— and then they'd made bad choices, they had got in trouble with the law. You know, these are kids in Brixton, which is a really, really rough area in London. So again, I don't know why, it just I just seemed to fit into that role.

Did you tell them that you're dyslexic?

Oh yeah, of course, always, always tell everybody.

What was their reaction to that in general?

You know, some of them were, yeah, I think I might be dyslexic. Some of them were, oh, you can't be dyslexic, you're a teacher, you know, and do you know what I mean? So yeah, yeah, so, so This was the same group of people who had failed all the entry-level courses. They couldn't get onto any course in college. Yeah. So I thought, what can we do? So I set up an engineering course where literacy was the last thing you had to worry about.

Yeah.

It was all very hands-on.

Yeah.

So the college gave me a group of engineers and we did sound engineering, mechanical engineering, all sorts of different types of engineering. And the hardest part about all of this wasn't working with the young people, it was working with the teachers because they were so— they were just disbelievers in inclusion, you know, they just didn't understand it at all, you know, they— I mean, it's not their fault, it's just the way it is, you know, many people don't have experience of working with young people in that kind of situation or disabled people and so It's not surprising that people, they kind of struggled. Yeah, you know what I mean?

You're pointing out so many factors that aid a child's success and where it falls down on multiple levels.

Yeah.

Isn't it?

Oh, she's gone.

I've got my phone. Yeah, keep talking. Because, you know, I've been asked to write something on transformative education, and we forget that experience and giving children experience gives us a common starting point.

Yeah.

Where did she go? You there?

Yeah, I'm still here.

Okay.

Oh, I've got the wrong video. Keep talking, we can see some of you.

Okay, so the wrong part again, the biggest issue for me was dealing with these teachers who didn't do— but also the fact that when I was working with these teachers, my own experience with teachers wasn't very good. And so I would do things like talk very, very quickly because I was so nervous and so full of anxiety talking, talking to these people. thinking they were going to negatively judge me. So here I was, I got my PGC, I've got my degree, I got my dyslexia diplomas, and I was still feeling like I was an idiot in front of these people, these teachers, you know what I mean? That, that's where the, the trauma— that comes back to you because you feel that people are going to judge you in a negative way.

Yeah.

Now, when, when you started this teaching, how many years ago was that?

Oh, '95.

So since that time, have any of the teachers gotten better at recognizing or understanding dyslexia?

Do you want my honest opinion?

I think I already know the answer, but—

You want my honest opinion? I think, I think, I think some is— I think it's, I think that it's a wee bit better, but I think progress is too slow.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think progress is too slow and a lot of it's to do with lack of funding, a lot of it's to do with lack of training.

Yeah.

You know, when I did my PGCE in inclusion, the training for the other ones doing all the other specialisms was me going into their classes, trickling down what I was learning in my class about inclusion and trickling it down to them. So these people were doing engineering courses for teachers and woodworking and literacy and numeracy, and there was me who was just learning about inclusion, trying to trickle down this information to other students in different, in, in, in different specialisms, shall we say. And that, that's not good enough.

Yeah.

So over time, did teachers come to you when they had cases maybe that they needed help with?

I think, I think when I, when I started my job as running a dyslexia department, what I did was I made sure that people knew I was there.

Yeah.

So I went into all these different staff rooms, I told them why I was there, I told them my experience of it, I told them there's my office, come along and speak to me anytime you like, and then what I did was I found that Many teachers were concerned they might be dyslexic or had been assessed as dyslexic, but they were— they didn't want to tell anybody because they felt it would be— it would work against them in their jobs.

Well, how about for the students? If they had students that were struggling, would they ask you for tips on how to either identify or work with them?

Occasionally. Occasionally.

Just occasionally.

Occasionally, yeah. I did a bunch, I did a load of training on dyslexia, not dyslexia, disability awareness, and one of the things that came up with this across the whole college, and what came up was that teachers didn't know how to approach people like myself about disability or dyslexia, they didn't know what the right language was and they were concerned that if they used the language that they knew, that they might be considered to be discriminatory or, you know, yeah, they're not using the right language, so to speak, you know. Yeah, is that right? Makes sense?

Yeah, that does make sense. Uh, recently I've had a couple, um, people reaching out to me, and there is a woman who's a kindergarten teacher in another district that— and she admittedly says, like, she doesn't really know a lot about dyslexia, and a lot of her teacher friends don't, She also doesn't really think too highly of their special education department for whatever reason. And she was asking me some questions about it. And, you know, just giving— just talking to her about it was pretty apparent that even though they're doing assessments with some of the kids in the language departments, they don't under— they don't really understand why. And they don't understand what happens when these kids aren't doing well. So I was really excited that that finally it seems like people are reaching out, but they're going, I'm not a teacher. You know, I've just had to research dyslexia for the last few years. And it's disappointing that the districts aren't the ones that are saying, hey, we gotta get on board with this. That's why I'm shocked that, you know, you're talking about in the '90s and just, it's only gotten, as you said, a wee bit better. That's crazy.

Yeah. Yeah, what I mean, what I tried to do, I was lucky enough, I did, I did, I put together a project proposal for what they called the Learning and Skills Council in London, and I got £50,000, and I set up a project for specifically for teachers to provide assessment, to provide screening, to provide training, and to, you know, for teachers who felt they were or might be dyslexic. And, and, you know, we did a— we did this 4-month project, and we, we— I think we screened about over 300 teachers. There was over 25 that we could do within the time. We hope we assessed over 25 teachers as dyslexic, got them the funding they need to get the, um, to get the assistive technology that they might need. But here's the, here's the crucial key: even after we've done that And we were really positive about dyslexia all the time. Many of the teachers didn't come along to the end of, end of project party. They didn't want to— they still didn't want people to know that they were dyslexic because they were concerned it was going to impact on their career.

Yeah, but what about the kids though? That's the, that's the part that's just mind-boggling, that the teachers aren't being trained to recognize what this is. To help the kids.

Yeah.

Well, when you, you know, when you start talking about teacher and looking at teacher training, I actually start to wonder how much in teacher training has changed over the last 20 years. And that's—

Well, I, I don't— I can't know because I've not been to teacher training over 20— my teacher training happened '94, '95. Yeah, but I would say I think there's a little more awareness of it, but not much more.

Yeah, we have a question from Chris, and he said, what advice do you have for students that are having difficulty going through to university due to dyslexia?

Get— I advise any dyslexic to go along to the student support services and get hold of any support that you can get.

Yeah, yeah.

That's the most important thing. And you have to— I think— I know it's difficult to be— I've got this policy of trying to be honest all the time, because if you're not honest and don't say what you need to say, then how are the issues going to be dealt with effectively? You've got to really advocate for yourself or else nothing will change. But it's not easy. You know, you're dealing with years of shame, you're dealing with years of failure, you're dealing with trauma. The people that are going through this kind of thing, You know, yeah, no, I think, I think it's difficult. My personal thing would be to find out, if you're new to university, would be to find out whoever's running the dyslexia department and see if you can make an appointment to go and see them.

Yeah.

And go and ask the questions, what support's available for me? What do you think, what do you think of the teaching in here? Is it dyslexia-friendly? What assistive technology is available to me through the college or the university? You have to ask the questions. Many students don't know what the questions are, and if they don't know they're dyslexic, don't even know that, you know, they don't, you know, they don't know the cause, the reason behind.

Yeah, and his second question, what advice do you have for the teachers, professors that want to help those students?

Um, look out for training. Keep looking out for training. Get a few— if you're interested in doing it, ask your colleagues, see if they might be interested in coming, getting together as a group to do, you know, see if they can get someone to come in to do some basic training in your school. There must be, you know, if you've got— if there's just one of you in a school, you know, 10% of you, of teachers in the school, will be dyslexic. You've got to reach out to other teachers and see if other teachers are experiencing the same kind of things. And if you can get a few of you together, then you're more likely to get the training. And that's in your— in the US.

Yes.

In the UK, I would say disabled students— not disabled students allowed, what am I talking about now? There is a program, and I can't remember the name of the program, where you can get support and help from the government with assistive technology, the paying of assistive technology. With, um, with the training with the assistive technology. But the only problem there is you must have an assessment.

Yes.

And if you haven't got an assessment and the assessment costs £350, yeah, you know, how do you move forward with it?

That's one of the problems in the US is everything requires an assessment before you even start.

Yeah, you know, not disabled students, I can't remember the name of it. Yeah, another 3-letter acronym that's escaped me.

Yeah, no, that's what our time is just Steve, are there any—

Sorry, I've rattled on too much about not very much indeed. That's probably not what you really want to listen to.

No, that's perfectly true. Tell us where people can find you to start with.

Um, so Harriet Watt University, you can contact me there. Um, don't ask me what the phone number is.

No, but Harriet Watt University is all we need. Yes.

Yeah, it's in, it's in, it's in, um, is in Edinburgh. I'm based in Glenrothes, Dyslexia Pathways Community Interest Company, which means we're not-for-profit. Any profit we make, we have to plough into, you know, into the dyslexia thing. So it's not about making a profit, it's about supporting the dyslexic community, and it's about enabling the dyslexic community to overcome barriers that they face in employment, in their life, in education. So that's Dyslexia Pathways Kick. That focuses on the academic and the training, and then Unique Dyslexic Eye and Get Creative, that's all about, that's all about the creative and using creativity as a means to develop, start to overcome any kind of mental health issues, basically. No, so if you're a musician, like we support a number of musicians on our show who play— they're dyslexic, they play their dyslexic music, they play music they compose on, on, on— so we give them a forum. Um, so if you're— if anybody's out there, a dyslexic musician, you know, stevemcHugh@uniquedyslexia.com, send me your music and I'll play it on one of my shows.

That's cool.

You know, if you have something you want to say to my audience, just record it, send it to me, and I will, I will play on my show, providing there's no profanity, because we've got to be, we've got to be—

Yeah, you've got to be careful with that, but that's, oh, that's wonderful, that's really good. Reach out to Steve is what I can say.

Yeah, I'm quite happy to talk—

Keep going.

I'm quite happy to talk to anybody about dyslexia.

Yeah.

You ever heard of Quasimodo?

Yes.

Okay, I'm the dyslexic version of Quasimodo. I will, I will swing from the bells yelling dyslexia, saying, you know, how positive I'm about being dyslexic.

Oh, that's nice.

I love that. I love it.

Yeah, you know what I mean?

Lisa, where can we find you?

Uh, Facebook and Monday afternoons on When Learning Is Strong.

Thank you, because Please share this channel with friends and family and with all dyslexics so we can benefit from hearing stories and books and poems, to know that dyslexic people are not alone and this channel can grow, which is what's really important. You can find me on Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn and Instagram and YouTube and the website at loislatchford.com.

Can I just say I'm impressed with what you do.

I'm trying. As you can see, I'm in a bit of trouble, partly because I'm still in pain.

Yeah.

So I've only had— it's been a month or so since my accident, but we'd set this series up and I really wanted it just to keep going.

Yeah.

So that's what we deal with. Next week we talk with Tracy Weeden from Houston, and we're really looking forward To hearing her story. So Steve, what's your final words for today?

You want to listen to my podcast? Tune into Unique Dyslexic Eye.

Perfect, perfect.

E-Y-E.

Unique Dyslexic E-Y-E. Oh yeah. I'll join you.

All right. Nice to meet you, Lisa.

It's nice to meet you, Steve. Thank you for joining us.

Is that an Irish McCarthy? It is.

It's by marriage. I have a great aunt from Tipperary though, so I have a little Irish in me for real.

A wee wee bit.

It was great talking to you.

It's been really fab meeting you two. Sorry I interrupted.

No, that's fine. Say it again. I missed it.

It's been really fab meeting you both.

Oh yes, yes, yes. Well, Steve, I'm just delighted you can join us and share your story and your journey and, and helping so many people as they reach university level now, which is what your new— like, your company is now, isn't it?

Yeah.

Can you just for the last minute tell us about what you're actually doing now at Heriot-Watt?

With Dyslexia Pathways Kick, I'm supporting, I'm doing, I'm supporting 15 university students at the moment on all sorts of different courses from engineering to doctors to across the range, programming on their courses and enabling them hopefully, hopefully, you know, to do well in their courses. And thankfully, generally it works out pretty well. Like all the students I've got positive feedback this year so far, and, um, so, you know, it, it's working quite well.

Oh, that is fantastic. So if you are dyslexic, know that there's support for you, know that you are not alone, and that we can all, you know, find someone to help you achieve your goals.

Yeah, yeah.

So thank you.

Don't give up on yourself.

Don't give up. That's brilliant. I love it.

All right.

Thank you, and we'll look forward to seeing you again next week. Bye.

What me? Bye.

Do I click end, Isaac?

Yes.

Bye bye. Okay, bye Steve.