When Learning is Trauma: Tricia Cook, Lois Letchford, & Lisa McCarty

Tricia, I'm delighted to have you here today. Can we start, Isaac?

Yes.

4 o'clock.

Thank you.

Today we welcome Tricia Cook from Alabama.

Yes, Birmingham, Alabama.

Perfect. Tricia's interests focus on alternative and holistic education such as explicit instruction, neurodiversity, Literacy tutoring, learning difference, positive mindset, and learning environments. She presents an alternative perspective as she definitely has a divergent mind. Tricia feels like a wise and revolutionary educator who listens to the children by following their needs. She believes in Maria Montessori's observation of trusting the universe along with the child. If we love and trust our children, this becomes inner thoughts, ideas, feelings, intents, dreams, and purposes.

Welcome.

To start, can you tell us a little about your story and how you got here?

Sure thing. So, um, it was 1983. I was struggling so terribly bad, and I was going to some of the best schools In New Orleans, and it was actually where I was going to almost a new school every year by that time. And I was already in 2nd grade but age 8. So I was held back before, and my mom— the Montessori teachers tell my mom, you need to go have her tested. So I was tested for actually central auditory processing disorder and a learning difference. And as you, as you guys know, that means average to higher IQ with problems in reading and math. So, but, you know, it's just like none of the help was really given. It was like, okay, you got this label, but I didn't get it. The only help that I got is my mom had a private tutor for me. But it wasn't actually until high school where I was pulled for resources because I was in private school before then. So Resource class, but the teacher didn't really help. I had peers that helped me out even there. So don't get me wrong, the extra test timing and books on tape, everything helped get me through college a good bit. But, um, this—

yeah.

So I ended up becoming a reading specialist, uh, because I had a mentor at the State Department here in Alabama say, man, you keep on writing your teacher trainings on literacy, you need to become a reading specialist. It never crossed my mind. I was like, okay, I'll do it. And so as I was learning how others learn is basically what happened. I was retraining my brain to learn. I had no idea that was happening. Um, so actually they, they weren't heavy on, um, in the program to tell us about dyslexia or reading struggles, but just different tools to use for those who struggle. That, you know what I'm talking about?

Yeah.

So it's where they bombarded with us, with, for us then in that time was a lot of graphic organizers. So these graphic organizers, I started using them then when I was on my master's. I was like, these are really working for me. And then it occurred to me, well, I've always liked webs. So yeah, and so the web now has turned into what they call mind maps, which are key to teach students with dyslexia, because you start with a mind map that looks like a web. They can make it as colorful as they like, if they can make it as interesting as they like. They can add graphs, they could add drawings to it, they can add colors. And it adds shape, size, dimension, which is great for our valuable skills. So actually, I teach those, but right now I have mind maps in my head, so I mentally can see those and add information to them going in a clockwise manner. So I knew I could scaffold my students to do it. So they're using mind maps, some with— still now I'm in classes with some without. Mind maps being used. So that's key, I thought, to help me retrain. But I didn't know if you wanted me to go on.

No, it's good to have a stop. It allows us to evaluate. So where did you go to college and what happened at college?

Okay, so I went to the University of Alabama and it was online for the reading specialist. Certification there, and it was good. I mean, I had good professors. I had a very good experience there. Um, 2 years later, I had a friend say, why don't you get your Orton-Gillingham training with me? So I did with her. That was fine. That was a good experience. You know, I did— I didn't struggle so much because I didn't feel much pressure because it wasn't being graded. You know what I mean? So that was fine. But when I got to go to my work on my doctorate, um, to the school at the University of Alabama, it did not go well. They, you know, they— I was reading, I was doing what you're supposed to be doing, reading articles and spitting back exactly what the professor wanted you to say. See, which I didn't know too much about my brain and understanding that I Thinking out of emergent mind, that's the one that's going to think about feelings, facts, I mean feelings and future. That's all it's going to care about. So it's not going to care so much to say this qualitative and quantitative type research. It's actually the opposite. It's more observation, getting my own hypothesis in and my own theory, and then stating what I come to conclude from that. So, uh, it was really, really did not go well. Uh, so I left after 2 years in it. Um, so I just could not be put in that box of read this, say this, and you gotta say what everybody else says. And then you get these positive comments from the professor because you, you synthesized perfectly, you know? So.

That's it. Because I, I chose not to do any further studies because it was Too stressful for me, really. Doing the reading, you know, and doing all the actual writing is what, you know, thrown me at that academic level which they expect, you know.

Mm-hmm.

I don't think that professors really understand the lifelong implications of not reading and writing effectively early on.

Because they didn't have to experience it themselves. So few of them did. And again, they have that scientific type reasoning that ours is more observations and trusting what our observations are through valid skills.

So, yeah. Yeah, my youngest son used to ask, why are there no teachers that think like him? And I said, well, Because if you struggled in school, probably the last place you want to spend your adult years is in school. So I think it's fantastic that we are getting learners that are now becoming teachers that can help these guys. So, Tricia, when you went to school, were you ever in a public school setting?

Yeah, so just until high school. So I became in a public school setting.

And that was—

did you say that was the Montessori type of schooling?

No, that Montessori school was 2nd grade. Okay, that's one of the many private schools I went to. Um, but I was gonna say my undergraduate, if y'all had read my story, didn't go so well. I had a professor just about— I was about to end, it was my senior year— stopped me after reading a paper and saying, you'll never graduate. You will never be a teacher if I can help it. Because a paper that I had written that I have to say must have been disorganized, but I met with her twice in the attempt to get this paper right, you know.

Yeah.

Um, and she had my letter, which I didn't understand, and I had met with her and the effort was definitely there. I was just about to graduate, but I ended up graduating. I actually changed counselors. It was a work schedule until they had gone over and I ended up graduating right on time. But that was, that was, that was where you might have read where you can develop anger towards your learning difference. I was angry at that situation, but I didn't call it anger. So, but that definitely made me angry.

I'm always interested in the social emotional part of all of this.

Yes.

Lois, I'd love to talk about that. So that's something I misunderstood your story.

I thought you were in private school. Until your high school years, but it sounds like—

No, I was, I was in private school up until high school.

Oh, gotcha.

And then in high school, that was public?

Yes. So high school was public.

Okay.

So when you were in, where did you get the most support? Was that in the private schools?

No.

Public school? No.

Neither?

Even like when I was in college, when I had, uh, Gotten books on tape, extra test time, tutoring center. Um, all of that was probably the best I've ever got.

So then when you were younger, uh, can you tell us a little bit more how you felt emotionally?

Right. So what I found being a tutor teacher myself is nobody had ever looked at social-emotional, what was going on. So I had developed a lot of anger, and I didn't realize that until I was 40. I was like, okay, I'm finally learning as I want to learn. Why am I still having problems with insecurity and unsurety about myself? So I had to go back in my mind and revisit some of the situations that happened. Um, and one of them being when I was in first grade. So you could play it back in your head like it's today because we have the 3D. Thank you. So I, she was standing over behind me and she was very angry at me. I want to say she was yelling. And I remember shutting down and looking only at the other kids' faces looking at me as it was happening. And so nobody said, are you angry about this? So that situation had made me angry, but I— nobody ever had me verbalize or talk about situations that occurred like that. Now I think about shame. I think about my biggest thing when I was young. I had to always write stories of mysteries, stories. I don't know, you know, a lot of dyslexic kids write about mysteries and, and fictional stories. I brought it to school because I thought, I know I'm gonna get a good grade on this. My story is amazing. So I brought it to school. She marked— the teacher marked it up all with red X's and circles and all these types of things. So I said to myself, I will never write again. And that's a type of intent that goes with your— on your soul forever.

Yes.

That kind of seeking out that kind of thing.

Yes.

I really stopped myself from wanting to write. At that point, and I had felt a lot of shame, but nobody said, you know, I got a lot of emotional support from my mom because I probably cried a lot. I did cry a lot, actually. And so, um, so nobody said, are you feeling shame? Are you feeling shameful right now? So I never got to verbalize any of the 2 things that were the major, major emotional emotions that we're feeling at the time. So now, as a tutor, I have a checklist so we can look at the social-emotional part first before we even get into the intervention. And I have a name for it. It's called the anger shame checklist, but then it's got a, of course, official name. It has a lot of the things that you'll see with a child who's experiencing anger.

Yeah.

Like defensiveness. That's a huge one. And so, if a parent says, well, what do they— what do you mean defensive? I have the perfect answer for this because they'll say, uh, because the dog looked at me wrong, you know, just out, out of the ordinary type of stories, you know, that we make up. But, um, because the sun was in my eyes, but we know that could be, um, hypersensitive or off nerve. But, um, just any kind of excuse they give or say, not an excuse. It's because they're feeling angry is what it is. That's the difference. And the biggest one for shame that's on my checklist is shutdown. Of course, I have to say. And of course, I have crying and whining on there.

Yeah.

So parents, they mark off the anger chain checklist and we talk about it. And what I found is for anger, you need most for is that strength. Strength for anger.

You don't—

it's hard to understand why this is the truth, but have you ever met an angry person who wants to look at their anger and observe their anger or talk about it? I have not. So strength is what's needed for anger. For shame, you need empathy the most. So on that checklist, you'll see sensitive, Caring. Well, people who have shame care way more for others and how they speak to others than they have to their own selves, right? So you need empathy and care most for your own selves, which I still hadn't had at 40 when I was insecure and unsure.

Yeah.

So, um, I talked to parents about that. I sent them a list of things that you could do, a lot of them holistic. Sometimes Christian, you know, if they have Christian background, for the case being it being a Christian, it would be instead of strength, I say grace. So sorry, mercy. And if they— if it's shame, I say grace. So again, it's real alternative and holistic. But what's interesting is that they said, I'm so glad you brought up this about my child. I don't think it would have been mentioned otherwise, because it wasn't for me. But we can also say that my thing happened in the '80s, and I don't know, in generations before then, but you think they would bring it up now, but it doesn't appear when I get those comments back to me.

It's something I've never done with students. It's— I have always avoided it. I haven't talked about it. And onto the teaching in a different way. But I think you're right; it's something that that has to be acknowledged. It's only I only approach it when my students are reading, and that's when they have the words to say, "This is what happened to me." Da da da. You know, and my mind boggles. My mind just boggles, and I think we're unaware of the depth. Of shame that children, young children feel.

That's right.

That's inability to do something. And like you said, you put in all this work to write a paper and it comes back, this is not good enough.

And it was never going to be about them. It's going to be about me. I put this, this on me, you know, something's wrong with me. It was never going to be on the teacher who I looked up to so much.

Yes, yes.

But I was going to say If a parent doesn't want that evaluation that includes the anger and shame, you're right. I look to see if my students start to get hyperactive in their mind. A hyperactive mind is one that's feeling and triggered with anger. So something had made them angry when they had written, and you're asking them to write.

Yeah.

So I give them— once I see that hyperactivity in the mind start to happen as they read, They start to read ahead before they've even read what's supposed to come. That's a hyperactivity type of thing that I say, okay, I can tell you're ready to get calm with me right now. We start to breathe, and once they're calm and I know they're not so anxious, then we start to read again. But I'll say, this is something to do. This is what I saw. So you start to read ahead before you had gotten finished what you're reading. Let's get calm. Remember, you need to do that when this happens and start over from where it last made sense to you. And they are like, okay, so they're good with it. So of course it would be that every parent would say, yes, I do want the anger change checklist so we can relive the generational stuff that went on, happened to me.

Yeah.

Actually, they have more that say they want that, but not all of them do. They— we just start right away with tutoring. And then again, I say I observe it. And if they bring up social emotional with me, I always mention the parents. They brought this up today, and this is what we did. So, or I saw them get— if they get hypoactive, by the way, that's the parasympathetic. It's starting to shut down. Then, then I know it's shame. Shame is a hypoactive mode. Anger, hyperactive. So, that's where I'm just seeing. Shut down or just, just kind of get lethargic, totally lethargic in their speech even, then I'll say, it's still, you still need calm, you still need breath, and you still need calm. So a calm mind has in it, uh, let me try to get the word right. Hold on, I brought, just in case this happened, I wrote my, I brought my notebook. Brings balance. Anyway, I'm not gonna try to say the word, but calm brings balance so that you're not in the hyper or hypo.

And teachers have to be aware of this when we're working with students who are not getting it. What is the emotional state before we even do come into whatever we're teaching?

Right before you start intervention, you should always be aware of what their stressors are. So that's why you need a checklist like that. But you're right, if you don't stop your tutoring for a second to calm because you feel like the parents are, are gonna judge you and, oh, you got 45 minutes, you gotta get this in, you gotta get that in, we— I can't hear you, I can't have you breathing. The thing is, is none of that's gonna even work or be effective until they're calm. So it's not any good, nor these tools that you give them to get calm for the rest of their life.

Yeah.

But once they can say— I use a lot of affirmations. So as soon as I hear, I can't, I say, I used to say that too. But you know what I say to myself now? I am smart. I can do this. And I am loved. And I say, I say that to myself every day. See, if we start them young on this, they don't have to wait till they're 40 and find out that why are they still insecure and unsure. So, um, start it young. I love that.

I am smart. I can do this.

I am loved.

I am loved.

Yeah.

Because, you know, we grow up with that, like you said, it's my fault. Fail because it's within me that the failure is. I just can't do it. And that brings a lot of, like, the first— well, I can't do it because I'm dumb.

Yep. I was going to say, I was taught— I would say I was stupid plenty of times from others, and that became my inner thought. So the thing is, is it's hard to develop empathy for yourself, but I'm telling you, if you tell your child every day Say to themselves, I am love, I am love. You do it for 4 to 6 weeks, it becomes a habit. At least you still might not believe it, but it comes part of your habit. Eventually you've told yourself enough, you rewire your brain to definitely believe it. But you just gotta start it, and that you can do it. Of course that you can do it. So, um, so I do yoga. Uh, so I tried yoga when I was teaching, so that didn't work. So I try yoga, so I have classes for yoga and meditation, and it's called Remembering Calm. And I have it mostly for teenagers because I talk to them all about what I've told you. I tell them my story.

Yes.

I basically say what happens. And I actually do a Bible study for, for kids, teens also, that do the Grace and Mercy that starts off on that. It's good literacy workbook. But so again, we have to start off young because if it's not mentioned, it's going to do them distress in their learning for the rest of their lives. You can get that worked out.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I see adults then who they're dealing with depression and anxiety oftentimes that started in these earlier school years, and they don't really even want to admit that they had these struggles with Especially reading, because we tend to see reading as how smart you are. If you're a good reader, you're smart. And so these poor kids just assume that they're not smart. And like you said, the shame that that causes is really powerful. So that, you know, I see the adults who don't even want to admit that they struggled in these areas until you question them a little bit more and it comes out that they struggled in those areas. And it's like this light bulb moment goes on when they realize that all of that had nothing to do with who they are and how smart they are, but nobody sat them down to explain that, maybe. So I think it's fantastic what you're doing. And first of all, let me just say, first of all, you don't even look like you're anywhere near 40. So I, I think the math might be a little wrong on that. So how did you come to know that these were your emotions? How did you find that within yourself?

So when I was 40, I kind of reexamined my life at a dark night of the soul type of thing. That's so wonderful. That happens to everybody in the process of becoming, uh, better individuals, I guess, or, you know, for spiritual growth or whatever. Uh, so I was reexamining my life, you know, at that time. Um, and went to the Bible first for it, and the Bible, the word strength kind of popped up. So I found out I was looking at a Living Bible. I didn't know what that— nobody ever defined what a Living Bible looks like. So strength popped up, and then, um, so, so then I started thinking about how— What does strength mean? And then things would come to me or whatever. It was about anger, but I said, I wasn't an angry child. I didn't get angry. I'm not an angry person. So again, I had to go relive those moments, like the one with the teacher behind me, to say, yeah, I was most likely angry. And what I've learned from that through my studies is it starts off with anger. If anger works for you, you'll stay with anger. And if it doesn't work for you, you go to shame. So that anger was not working. So I went straight into shame and I developed more of the area of shame. And because that was working for me until it stopped working for me, and that's when it— when it stopped working for me. I'm no longer going to live this unhealthy, unhappy person, this life. And this reevaluation that I was doing, that was— I gotta see what caused this shame. Again, the one example is the circling of the red marks, but there's 10 million more of those examples if you wanted them. But, um, so how do I help these things? That's where I came up with the mercy and grace, and then the, uh, strength and empathy to come up to help with these things. And that's when I started doing yoga, meditation, affirmations. And, um, of course, prayer. So, um, that's what— how that all happened with that. So I feel like my brain— I'm now in equanimity. That's the word I was looking for, ladies. It's in equanimity now. That, uh, it's balanced. I can really, uh, trust my own mind. So a lot of it before, I never realized how much— just like, let's have a very strong mind. I know I always had a strong will. My mom can tell you about that. But I had a very strong mind and I didn't trust it. But now I can trust my mind and I'm like, oh, that's cool. You know what? I can do that. And I'm saying, yes, people might say something if I do it, but I'm still— it's what my mind says I should do. So let me go research and go put it out there and do it. So that's where I get into my program is My Albert, it talks about. I talk a lot about neuropedagogy, ergo, right? So in it, you look at psychology, education, and neuroscience, and in it to develop it. But within the psychology part, a lot with positive mindset, a lot with mindedness. Okay, a lot with holism, and I feel like that's going to be this. That's the key of looking at the whole person, not just bits and pieces in us separately. So hopefully one day everybody will be looking at the social-emotionally as equally as how they're doing their literacy development and how well we're learning to read, write, and speak.

So just a step— we've got a little bit of an echo, Tricia, so I've got a question from you, for you.

Can you turn down your desktop audio, please? Okay.

Is it better?

Sorry to interrupt. I have help to—

Is it better?

I couldn't do it without support. Okay, so you were talking about psychology, neuroscience, and education.

It's neuropedagogy. It's one word. It doesn't have a hashtag yet. There's a, there's a lady who's developed it and writes articles about it. I've tried to contact her, but it really encompasses all 3. So of course, my Maria Montessori background. I was a Montessori teacher for 15 years. have my certification, of course, appealed to me the most, but it was what I was already doing because I was already realizing we're not meeting their whole needs. We're not meeting the whole child, just as it has for myself, you know.

Yeah, I think even with COVID um, I mean, there's such high mental health issues now, and I think the COVID uh, maybe will even swing us into what you're talking that we're having to to look at these things with our kids in school. Like up until now, we weren't doing that as much. And to be fair, a lot of schools, you know, they are, they're underfunded and some schools don't even have psychologists or, you know, counselors, or they have like one nurse that goes through different, to different buildings and they just don't have enough support. But I think with the COVID—

This is true.

At least I'm hoping that one of the good things that come out of this is that we take mental health way more seriously. And instead of, you know, who can read the fastest and get the best test grades, maybe we're gonna also see who's having a balanced life and happy and not feeling depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, drug use, and all that. So hopefully that'll be a positive.

I think the overemphasis on standardized tests and getting 100 or 90 on a test You know, it really puts our students in the wrong mindset.

Dyslexic students, we do best with multiple choice if we are offered anything. That's one of the ones where I've seen research that we do better with is, but there is no testing that goes along with the types of perception that we have. We perceive things literally different from everybody else. So, when you're saying, how's a character's feeling, we're gonna We're gonna have several different answers to how that person's feeling. We're not gonna have one answer, and it's gonna be based off of how we perceived it. So it's almost impossible to give a standardized test to somebody who's not standard. I'm totally— yeah, that's what I said. I had trouble with my doctorate degree for that reason.

So, but the, you know, the idea of a standardized test too, like you were saying, there's one emotion. We ignore the reader in that particular scenario anyway. You've got to read what the author wants, not what I want, and that negates what we're doing with reading anyway and the emotional connection that we need with it.

Yep, our perceptions come from our own experience. If our experience has been or developed an emotion of anger and shame, we're going to view through our lens something with anger and shame. That's going to get hard to get past that if you're not taught a positive mindset and mental activities that go on, that you're even reading into it the way that you're supposed to read. Because everything you perceive at that point will be anger or shame for learning, and there'll be triggers, easy triggers.

Yeah.

For instance, I was doing a podcast of my own, and we were talking about my inability to be able to write well, and I was given specific details on it, and I started to have a mental inner image or a trigger, and I started stumbling over my words all of a sudden. So you see, I still have that, but I know that I can get calm and it'll get better. So I can still have bad days where I'm sick, hungry, tired, or stressed, where my reading will get much worse, even though I've readapted my whole reading.

Yeah.

Where I can read and comprehend very well, but if you I just ask myself, what is it? One of those, you know? That's so important. Yeah.

Because my student has trouble where if he's trying to explain something to the teacher and in that moment he's getting anxious, it gets much worse and he can't explain what he's trying to explain. But this past year he was working as a snowboarding instructor instructing people, and when he felt calm and relaxed and knew his subject, he's very good at explaining things. And I've heard him explain Explain things very well on subjects that he knows, but the second he gets frazzled, all bets are off. All bets are off. I see.

And most likely had a learning trigger based off anger or shame to get to that point where— and also, we're all basically interest-based learners. So I ask them, I give another checklist that I didn't mention, and it's based off of, uh, learning styles, which is their strength and the weak end. Gifts and strengths is what I call it, but also an interest inventory where I think if you geared everything, every subject matter, every content towards our interest, we'll learn it happily. And that happily is the key. Kids have got to learn happily. So you take the content and we put it into whatever their interest is the best that we can. If you can make it more applicable and make it to know where they know the why. If you It's a synonymous why, I just like to call it. Give us the why, then you can tell us whatever you want us to learn. I promise you, we'll be open at that point. But give us that time and research to figure out, answer these natural questions that we're having. So that's what we think of PERSH.

So great.

Thank you. This is fascinating.

I love talking about this.

Yeah, I think it's pretty cool.

I agree with you. You know, before we get to letters and sounds, there's a base for it. And if we're overloading children too early on with having a reason for why I'm doing this, or you have to do it because I say so as the teacher, you lose them.

Yeah, and there's not much time set in a day for why. So once— so in my class, the one's called Reading and Research. We take— we base it off their interest, and we stop at each paragraph and I'll say, Did you have a what come up or a why? Because basically the pathos and ethos just falls along right with that. And they'll go more times than not, it was a why. Well, let's go look up why, then we'll revisit the passage. We do that throughout the whole passage, and at the end, he's gotten all of his whys met. Trust me, guess what happened to all the whats? They were met too. He was building up enough background knowledge of what we were going to go research on his why. But he was able to answer the questions much better because he had the freedom, or she had the freedom to go answer those whys first.

Yeah.

To explore the whys.

Yeah. I love that.

Explore the why. That's easy.

Yeah. The synonymous why of dyslexia is what I call it.

Sorry?

Synonymous why of dyslexia.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, excellent.

Amber, really carry— again, remember about feelings and future. So if it's something that's relating feelings and future, we want to answer it too. There it goes back to the why. See, in the other type of brain, the convergent brain, we'll go for the facts, forms, and functions. We can get to those facts, forms, and functions, but let's do the feelings and future first.

That's fantastic.

That—

I don't— can I ask a question?

Yes, definitely.

I don't know a lot.

I've heard mind mapping, but I don't think that way, so I don't really get it too much. Like, that sounds like a lot of work to me. Um, mapping to me sounds like too much. Uh, but for kids that are having, or even adults, anybody who's having trouble putting words to their emotions, Is mind mapping something that can help?

It can work with anything. So if I were you, I would put what makes you anxious in the middle, because just like you would in regular mind mapping, put the main point of view, the main, the main point, right? So I put what made you anxious, and then I would do a jet out with a circle because I, I do circles. And, um, you could say why, and then you can brainstorm off from that branch all the whys possibly that you could have had that done trigger. So basically it will take though that mental imagery of going back, so it's not easy.

Mm-hmm.

But it is something that they could physically see and touch and do to do it into a mind map. I would definitely suggest that.

I hadn't thought about I'm just wondering too, because is this, um, a lot of dyslexic learners are highly visual. Um, so when you're doing this, are these mostly words that you're doing? Are you also drawing pictures or how is this going?

All above. You're free. All mine, my free verse poetry, everything I do is you're free. You're free to communicate however you want. So they can do pictures. Well, when I show them though, I show them the way that I do it, and then sometimes I have them take control and they can do it their way. But, uh, the word is either acronym, you know, or acrostic or initial, but the word is just something to trigger the brain in remembering what you had read. And it goes like this, but you know, you can Google mind maps.

Yeah.

So, yeah, any— they could see it visually and colorfully, and it appeals to the value skills, and it breaks it down for them.

I have not done them a lot.

Yeah. So I started doing it when I was taught in graduate school, and then now I don't have to. I just got it up here like that. I can move it in, but we got to get into free verse, Lewis.

Yes.

Free verse poetry. So my testing anxiety was possibly number 1, but I want to say it's right up there with my writing anxiety. Next, definitely my speaking was after that. Um, but so I decided I was never going to write again.

Okay.

So I would have to write in school for papers. And then after that, I discovered I wanted to heal. At 40, I decided to do journaling. Well, journaling was okay for me. I mean, I still am an advocate for journaling, for figuring out from your subconscious what you were feeling and why. Um, but for me, it was poetry. I, I started just because we have something with dyslexia. I don't know if y'all are aware that I've seen one article. on it, and I still try to search for it because I didn't know it was going to be that impactful in my life. So I never kept the article, but lists form thinking. We think in lists. So that makes sense because where I've always forced myself to speak out in clear sentences for everybody to understand and to speak that way. So I definitely feel like I have what's called lists form thinking. So I started writing down lists of things I saw in pictures. And then sometimes naturally a, a rhyme would come up and I would be like, oh great, I did a rhyme. But I was still free to write on just what I was seeing and feeling from the picture. So, so I got rid of my writing anxiety through the free verse poetry. Then I started writing short stories and writing chapters and books and programs, but it started with just free verse. Where I was free to write in a list, basically.

That's fantastic. We have a question. Chris Lashwa is very good. What would you say was your biggest challenge as a dyslexic learner? Excellent question.

So being misunderstood that I was not stupid or slow and that I am very smart. And that I can do, just do differently. It's actually a gift, and I didn't realize it was a gift. So now, when I got the confidence, I started drawing, and I could realize how well I could draw. I did poetry, like I said, I do photography. These are all certain gifts. But, you know, when I teach, It's not typical. I mean, I do mess up frequently when I'm reading something with them, when I'm writing. But you know what I say?

That's okay.

I say I laugh at myself when I do it so that I can do anything, obviously, that anybody else can, because I do have— I was working on my doctorate. I am a teacher and a tutor. So I guess that's the biggest— did I answer the question?

Yes. You know what you just said then, making mistakes. is okay. And that's, you know, that's huge to allow children to say it's okay to make mistakes with because that's how we actually learn.

Right.

You know, where's— Nobody ever said that.

Yeah, yeah, because we see a mistake, it's wrong, but we have to accept mistakes are part and a positive part of learning.

Big part of learning. Yeah, it goes back to the standardized testing that you were saying. You know, if you have to come up with the one right answer, that's not really real life. That's regurgitation. Like, real life is thinking and making mistakes and trying it again. And I think that's one of the things that we don't do a real good job of letting our students know that it's okay. I think it's great that you can show them that. And then also, that brings down their anxiety.

Oh, you know, big time. The parents say they're so glad you're dyslexic. It makes a difference. It's kind of like a mentor, I think. Oh yeah, mentors.

We need more people. I mean, this is one of the reasons why we do all this work, is to bring awareness in the schools and in other areas in life too, just so they understand these kids more and that the kids understand. As you said, you found out in your 40s that you're— that this is a gift. And I know some people argue that term, but I think there's something to be said for understanding your strengths.

Yeah, there's— it's an umbrella of dyslexia with a spectrum of being, um, mild, moderate, severe. So depending where you are, you know, so for me it's a gift. Yeah, that's fantastic.

That's a positive thing to say. It's— yes.

Uh, if you read my story, which I think you had, Louis, I say I realize it all had to happen. The teachers being ugly to me, the peers, my brother, the hard struggles all had to happen because then I wouldn't be here doing what I am today and who I am today. And everybody has struggles of some kind.

Yeah.

But for me to have this peace with it It's so good. And it's not just the gift piece because I have the gift. It's because, because I had overcome. I mean, I've overcome in a way with the fact that I don't say to myself every day, I can't do this. I don't say that anymore. If that thought even enters my mind, I say, that's not true.

Wow.

That's good. I haven't got there yet.

Oh yeah.

Work on that, Lois.

Enemies.

Yeah, bypass that thought.

It's a habit. You know, when you get into these negative thinking, that's a habit, and it's a pattern of negative thinking that you have to retrain your mind, literally, um, to— and replace that negative thought process with something positive until that becomes your new habit.

But it's not easy.

It does take work.

It does, but it's worth it. But it's worth it, 110% worth it. So I, I know when I, I stick and feel some anger and shame, I go to Bible verses on strength and compassion because that's the highest form of care for oneself, self-compassion. And that always helps in prayer. But, um, again, there's ways, other ways of doing alternative holistic ways.

Another question from Kieran. Here is a question for all of you. If a dyslexic kid were to come up to one of you guys and was talking that he is stupid because he is dyslexic, what would you guys say to that kid? No.

That sounds like my kid in the other room.

I think he's, he's on YouTube right now, so he knows what his mom would say. Anybody else want to tell this kid?

Tricia, I mean, we were just saying that, weren't we?

Yeah, I say, uh, you're wonderfully made. You know, uh, NASA looks for people with dyslexia because you think in 3D. You can think up and, and innovate and create, and you can give it with such drive. That a lot of people can do that, to be able to do that abilities and to come up with solutions that most people can't. The outside-of-the-box thinking is absolutely amazing that you have. And I bet you, I bet you the main thing that you don't know about yourself is you're kind. A lot of people would just like to care a lot for people, animals, and nature. So I don't know how many How many times you thought about that. So I really want you to not say those things to yourself because you know why? You are smart. You can do this. You are love and I love you. I tell the kids I love them.

Yes.

Yes.

And I think you're right. First thing we have to do is start with the positive affirmations on a daily, twice daily, tri-daily basis. So we replace the negative with the positive.

Mm-hmm. I say put it on a mirror, like where they are every day, uh, so they see somewhere where they can see it. Um, so all affirmations go across all cultures, all religions, all beliefs. So those are the most powerful things you could do. And again, have them right out somewhere and they can see those words.

I'm gonna get my sticky notes out after this.

That's right. That's right. Everywhere. And it's gonna become their inner thought because they're gonna see it enough and say it enough.

Yeah.

Eventually.

Did we answer your question, Kieran? I hope so.

Yeah.

Oh, that is fantastic, Tricia. Thank you. Learned a lot.

Oh, good.

You know, and that positive affirmation to change our mindsets before we start anything else. That we can all do.

Yeah, figure out the stress and the triggers and, um, then go from there. See, then we get to how to help their literacy.

Yeah, yeah.

And that all comes— well, thank you so much.

Thank you, guys.

My son Isaac and his buddy Chris, tremendous support, because I could not do this without Listeners, where— I mean, not listeners, Trish, where can people find you?

Okay, well, my website is www.myelbert.com. My Elbert. But, uh, I did— was an addition in the middle position when I spelled that loud, so I would have been best if I write it down. And seeing it written, but my Albert, E L B E R T dot com.

Are you on Twitter and you're on Twitter and LinkedIn?

Oh yeah, so T Cook Tutor, T U T O R, T Cook Tutor.

T Cook Tutor. And Lisa, where can listeners find you?

So I'm on Facebook, LinkedIn when I'm on LinkedIn, and here on YouTube with Lois. Our dog, our dog has made an appearance, and also my son who's in the background.

Yep.

And this one is—

What? I'm sorry.

Karen or Evan?

That's Karen.

Karen.

Hey, Karen.

Karen, delighted to see you. And we've Smash the, um, what are we saying? Yes, he said— no, I said, did he answer the question? Smash the like and subscribe button and hit the bell for notifications for uploads to my channel. And on my channel, I read to children, I have poetry for kids, and my favorite book is Diary of a Killer Cat, and that's available. Find me on Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn. Uh, YouTube, and my website is loislatchford.com.

Instagram.

And Instagram. And I'm the author of Reversed, a memoir where I tell the story of my son who did his dramatic failure and his enormous turnaround. So join us next week. Next week we're listening to an engineer who completed his degree at RPI during the pandemic and his struggles with Learning to read. So we'll explore his experience and advice for fellow students. Oh, and my son is telling me, where can you get my book? Look on Amazon. Check out the YouTube for the videos on my story.

Pardon?

And the book is now on audio. And the book is now on audio. It's audio, so find— I'll just touch something.

Sorry.

Get it through. I don't know where do you get it through? Amazon and Amazon and my website.

Lovely.

Thank you much. I've got to get the whole lot. I need to put that all down. Thank you for joining us. Please share it with others, and Trish will stay in touch with you.

Thank you, Lewis. Thank you, Lisa.

Thank you so much.