How Truth Can Transform Brokenness into Purpose, with Dr. Eva Hunter.

Wellness is a practice, not just a word.

Welcome to the Synergy Podcast, where myself, Kelly Engelman and Lori Essery shed light on powerful tools and topics that nourish.

Your body and, most importantly, feed your soul.

Today, I'm so very excited to have Eva Hunter with us. Eva has been instrumental in my life. There's no secret to that. Oftentimes we have the question, you know, how did I get here? What does this experience mean to me? And Eva was instrumental for me to walk through kind of my story of my life and put perspective into that. So I'm so excited that she agreed to come on our podcast. I know that you're gonna be blessed by just being able to share this time with us. So, you know, sit back and get a cup of tea or something to really dig in and listen. So even. Thank you so much for being here.

Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me.

This is awesome.

And I want to thank you, too, because I have gotten to know you just through Kelly and just through some of our interactions with interviews, and you have blessed my life in ways that you don't even know. So I want to thank you for being here today and for just being able to share in this experience with Kelly and I. Oh, thank you.

I'm going to need a tissue.

I know, right? I think everybody might need a tissue. Spoiler alert. Yes, I have mine. So when I think about, you know, developing a life on purpose, and I think about, you know, things that happen in our life that aren't always pretty, but how we can take something that wasn't beautiful and turn it into a beautiful purpose of God, I think about you. And so I want to hear more about that journey. You know, I want to hear about your journey. You're a counselor. You help people in times of brokenness, whether that's through sexual addiction and betrayal or whether that's just trying to understand themselves better. So I want our listeners to really understand where that came from. How did that come about?

Okay, so discovery for Ron and I in our marriage happened 32 years ago, and I was 28 years old at the time with two. We had two small children. And I could never imagine that God would use what we went through actually for good. But looking back today, I can see it was really his great design for my life and for Roan's life, too. You know, it's been definitely been a journey just in my own healing, and you've been instrumental in that for me as well, physically healing from just all what betrayal, trauma does to us. And so that's definitely been something that in probably in the last five to eight years, that's really been a focus for me. We moved back to Mississippi. Let me back up a minute. Discovery happened. We were living in Atlanta, 28 years old, and gratefully there was a lot of help in Atlanta. Not so sure what would have happened if we had been here.

So for our listeners, let me just ask a question for Discovery. What does that mean?

Okay, so that's a great question. You know, this is just my lingo.

I know, I know.

So what that meant for me. I could tell that in our marriage, Jerome had been distant and really down. And I was a stay at home mom at the time. And I just asked him one morning, I was like, something is off. I mean, what is it? You seem really down. And he said, eva, I have a problem with pornography. This was in 1990. We were very involved in church. We did wear masks. I see that now, that what we presented was not really the reality of what was happening in the home or behind closed doors. We just had. We fought hard and we loved hard. We call that intensity. I grew up in intensity. A lot of chaos. And so that was very familiar to me and so did Roan. It was very familiar to us. We loved making up. Let me tell you.

Yes, Intensely.

Intensely. But really what that did to my body. Right. Was detrimental to me. So discovery was when I asked the question, what was wrong? And he said, I have a problem with pornography. As the weeks and months went by, we got into counseling and realized there was a lot more than just pornography.

So basically, he allowed you to see something that you had no idea existed.

No idea existed.

So your reality was, we are a happy family, we're in church, we're following God's plan. And then all of a sudden, it's like you realize you're in a bad dream, that you had no awareness of.

Zero awareness. It's almost like if our house had had a basement and I did not realize there was a basement, and maybe somewhere in the den there was a trap door. But when I discovered the trap door and I opened it, it was just a whole nother world that I had no idea about whatsoever.

So discovery wasn't just a day.

No, no, it wasn't. And we call that a trickle effect, a trickle disclosure. It came out in bits and pieces over probably three or four months, which.

Is a series of questions, probably a series of counseling. Multiple things that I'm sure you would have had to have done during that time period to fully discover exactly.

Exactly. And at that time they didn't do what's called a formal full disclos. We do today that we think that's the best way to get it all out. That typically a partner will find out something. They know there's been some kind of betrayal. But you know, the person that I'm going to say the addict, he has had. So he has so much denial and he's justified and he's minimized. So he has no, really, he's not aware of the depth of his acting out behaviors and he's been able to compartmentalize it or separate from it, you know, and he's put it in a file cabinet somewhere and does not want to talk about it.

Right. So today you guys walk couples through that process of writing everything down so that when discovery happens, it's a more complete as best it can be, complete process so that the person's not re traumatized.

That's right.

That's what happened. To hear more and more, every time they think they know there's more that they don't know.

What happened to me. Rome was ready to tell the truth. And so as the questions would come enter my mind, I would ask them. And he gave me too much information, too many details. Yes. You know, the partner needs to know what are the acting out behaviors. But the details, like what hotel were you in? What did the person have on? What did you do? Those are details that are seared in the brain and there is no bleach for the brain.

Right. Gosh, you bring up a really good point right now. So what you're saying is despite it's not a personality issue, I'm a detail person. So I'm a detail. I have questions for you. And those details for me, I feel are important. You're saying that not so much.

Right. It took me years to overcome those details. I mean, I can bring them up today, but they don't take me out. But it really harmed me. It harmed me. The details did. For a long time. I couldn't even picture that my husband had done the things that the man. I know it doesn't line up right.

Incongruence. Absolutely.

Very incongruent.

So once there was discovery, what happened next?

So we got into counseling and we were in counseling for about two years and. And we just really did not know. Remember, we only knew how to fight. Right. And make up. And so there was just so much intensity and so much hurt between us. I got to the point where I was like, I need space. I want to separate Intuitively, I knew I needed to heal. So I went to a lawyer thinking I was going for a legal separation. In the state of Georgia, there is no legal separation at that time. I don't know if there's. If that's the case today, but so. And the lawyer said, you know, in order to protect you financially, the best way is to be divorced. And she said, you know, you can always remarry. Well, that was. You know, people in my family don't divorce. And as a believer, that was something that was very. A very difficult decision for me to make. However, I was suffering. I mean, I was just suffering.

I want to talk about that a little bit more. Because your primary emotion during that time was anger. Was anger. And I was never seen, like, you're so meek and mild and sweet. Like, when you told me that, I was like, there's no way.

And it wasn't anger. It was really rage.

Yes. And I can understand that. I know I've gotten there myself. And it's like, well, who was that person?

Yeah. And I was really raging for almost two years. Truly, I was.

There's that intensity, but I know, yeah.

It'S bad, which I didn't know how to express. What's underneath. Anger is hurt, fear, frustration, and injustice, and I didn't know how to express those.

Right. And I didn't. You know, our emotions are so much energy.

Right.

And I think we try so hard just to keep it in. Just keep it in. Just stuff it, stuff it. I shouldn't feel this way anymore.

Right.

So let me just stuff it instead of working through the physicality of out processing those emotions and moving in order to get that done.

Yeah.

So you guys followed through. You got a divorce. We did.

We divorced. And at that time, my brain began to calm down some because I did get space. And I was a little bit in survival. I was in survival mode, too. I had to go to work full time. I had full custody of our children, and Rona had visitation. And that was really tough. You know, it was. It was difficult. However, it gave me enough space to realize I needed to get the help I needed. He had gotten a lot of help, but I had just really suffered for a long time. And so first thing I did was get involved with a group, Adult Children of Alcoholics, acoa. And in that, I really began to see how I had been affected from my family of origin and got into counseling. And I had had trauma from growing up in an addictive family system. But also I'd had an abortion when I was 18 years old, the summer in between my senior year in high school and freshman year in college. And that was something that I had never dealt with. In fact, Ron didn't, you know, we were going to get married and then we didn't. And so I had some abandonment stuff. I didn't even realize it. And we just. He nor I ever talked about it. So that was something I began to get healing for as well. And just the trauma of our marriage. Right. And at that point, I really could see for the first time that I was just as broken. I really did not think I was. Honestly, I did not. I thought I had left all that behind. I am fine. It has not bothered me. I really never connected my anxiety. It showed up in my gut with IBS just a lot. But that's where I would carry my anxiety. But I didn't know I had anxiety, but I sure did. I can get real busy and numbing out my anxiety. Yes, numbing out. And it motivates me to get a lot of things done right. But that's really my anxiety.

You bring up such a good point there. I just want to pause for a minute. Is physical manifestations as a result of those emotions that we talk and the inability for many of us to not connect the dots to see these things?

Exactly.

There are blind spots.

Yes, they are. Definitely.

For sure. And I. And we'll get into this a little bit later. I want to get through your story, but I often hear people say, you know, I had trauma as a kid, but I've dealt with that. I mean, that was a long time ago. That doesn't matter now.

Right. And the body keeps the score.

And the body keeps the score.

It sure does.

Yes, it does. So what happened? You're back to work?

Yes, I'm back to work, doing my own therapy work and begin to see that, gosh, I'm just as broken. It looks different, but I have my own stuff. For sure. Me too. As far as my own sexual brokenness as well, because I only knew, you know, how to connect through sex. I didn't really know what intimacy looked like. So Ronan and I decide about. It was about a year after divorce. We began a process of reconciliation and we were remarried. And at that point we both made a commitment that we would stay in recovery. We would be a part of a group. We would not hide what had happened to us anymore. We would be completely known to safe people. So we just had a community around us that we could be authentic and transparent with. And that made all the difference in the World.

So we heal in community.

Connection is the cure.

And oftentimes when we're hurt or wounded or sick for that matter, we go into hiding.

That's right.

You know, we isolate. We're shameful, and we go. And we. We go into hiding. So I think people, our listeners do need to understand that true healing happens in community.

That is, yes, absolutely. It's really what heals. The shame, too, is the antidote for shame.

I was thinking shame. And, you know, we go into that if we're sick, oftentimes in fear too. It may not always be shame.

Right.

I agree.

That's what Eva helped me so much with, because I feel like in the wellness industry, we put so much pressure on ourselves to be physically perfect. Right. And when I got sick, I had a major identity crisis. Like, I've done everything to take care of myself. How could this be happening? And what does this mean? Does this mean that what I'm doing doesn't work? Does this mean, you know, what? How do I even put that into a place that's healthy? And shame was a big part of that for me. I felt shame that I got sick. And so you really helped me walk through that process of understanding. And I think we all have areas and wounds that need to be healed and in a very powerful way.

And your story helped me, when I faced my challenges, to understand that for me, much the shame of, you know, now I have cancer. Right. And how could that be? Like, I've done all of these things and you said, oh, sister, like, it's gonna be fine, like you. It doesn't mean we're immune to these things.

You know, it's how we navigate from this point forward.

Absolutely.

It's an opportunity for us to learn things that perhaps we would never have learned. It gave me an opportunity to heal things I would have never healed because I would have never taken the time to look.

Sharing our stories. Hence the reason for opportunities like this.

Absolutely.

You know, to share.

So at what point, Eva, did you or Roan decide that this would be a ministry for you?

So somewhere in our 40s, he really was the motivator of saying, you know, I'd love to go back to school and get my master's. I really want to write a book. I can remember one of our sister in laws gave Roan a really nice pen for Christmas one year because he'd been talking about he wanted to write a book. And gosh, I just had that memory and gave him this pen. And then 20 years later, he ends up writing a Book. Right.

That's how it happened. That's how it happened.

It really was, I mean, something that he had the vision for to do one day be a therapist and help other people. And that was about 10 years into recovery. And so we were somewhere in our 40s. We went back to. And I was like, well, I will, too. Okay, that sounds good to me, too. And we went back to school, working on our master's at Richmond University in Atlanta, and we maybe got about a quarter of the way through, and then he went through a major depressive episode that was treatment resistant. And so we were advised, why don't y' all make your. Your life simple, move back to Mississippi. And we thought, well, we're open to that. Ro and Josh were in college at this point, and so we were ready for. We're ready to get out of the hustle and bustle of Atlanta. And just our life was really crazy busy during that season. Somewhere in there, we were also ministry leaders at our church for Celebrate Recovery. So we were doing a lot of mentoring other couples and people and had done some lay counseling, that sort of thing. We'd made this decision to come back to Mississippi. We both are still. I. I left my job. I'd been with Delta Airlines for 10 years at that point, maybe a little longer than that. And he transferred corporate job with Siemens, and we transferred our hours from Richmond to Mississippi College. In my mind, we were going to do this once we retired, somewhere in our 60s. We graduated and got all of our hours and were licensed at the age of 50. And he was like, eva, I think we need to do this now. And I was a realtor at this point and very, very busy.

So. Did you join Michelle?

Yeah.

Is that what happened when you came here? She said, okay, you can help me with my real estate business.

She was so supportive.

She's amazing. Yes.

Oh, my goodness. And very encouraging. In fact, we would come back to Mississippi here in Madison, every Thanksgiving, and they had been talking to us every Thanksgiving, y', all please move back here. And we were like, we are never moving back to Mississipp. Not going to happen. But then we became, you know, it's such a God thing now that I look back on that. That. That November, once again, the conversation happened, and we were like, you know, maybe we should. We've been thinking about how to simplify our life and so end up here, get licensed. And by age 50, we've opened a private practice. By age 55, we have three locations. One in Starkville, one in South Haven, and The one in Madison and 15 therapists that work.

And a few books. Right.

Just one book. Just one book. But a couple of workbooks in the process and a podcast and lots of intensives that we do. We, we have never been busier. However, it is such a life purpose.

Yes.

You know, and even that. And we have to really have good boundaries. And Kelly's helped me with that too. About having good boundaries around my work. Right. That I can only do this amount and that's all I'm willing to do because my health is also very important because my mother has Alzheimer's. I certainly want to prevent that.

So can we talk about your health?

Sure.

So I know when I met you, I remember the very first day that you came in for your eval. And I will be honest, when I got your labs back, I was so confused because the person I saw sitting there was so calm and poised and beautiful and vibrant. And when I looked at those labs, I was like, how did this happen? And I didn't know anything about your trauma story at the time. And so our follow up visit, we kind of dug into and this is the pattern that I'm seeing. I don't like this pattern. This pattern makes me nervous for your long term health. And I wasn't sure how motivated you were to make changes because you guys were just starting out your practice and you were working till 8 o' clock at night.

That's true.

You were skipping lunch. You guys were eating out.

That's right.

And I was like, oh, how in the world do I get her to see that those patterns of behavior are only going to feed the fuel for the fire that's already burning.

Right.

And luckily enough you were very receptive.

Well, I was open, but it's been a process too. Just in my. And now it's kind of like my, my hobby. I love to read, I love to educated about healthy things. I listen to a lot of different podcasts around health too, and trauma.

So you said earlier the body keeps score.

Yes.

And I think you would be the picture of the body keep score if we had a picture beside the definition right at the time of entry into the process of really your physical part of healing. And I think a lot of times this is a common theme that I see. A lot of times people come in, maybe they want hormone balance, maybe they're having a few aches and pains, but nothing big. And then we get their labs back and I'm like, oh, yeah, there's, there's more to this story. And the way that you were conducting your life at the time was counterproductive to your health.

Right.

And so having you see that these things are so impactful. You know, if we had a pill that could alter gene expression.

Yeah.

You know, lower your level of inflammation, balance your blood sugar, everyone in the world would want to take that pill. And that pill is lifestyle.

Yes, it is. I agree with that.

I just want to interject something that you had said earlier to me about this case. You had said it was the most difficult conversation as you prepared for it.

Yes.

You remember telling me that.

Because I wanted to be sensitive to. You know, when you don't have an awareness that there is a physical problem, the last thing you want to do is scare someone to death and have them say, I'm never going back there because she doesn't know me.

Yes.

And that's why I wanted to bring that up. Because it is. I'm sure it was not only a sensitive conversation that you wanted to go in in a very heartfelt, loving way, bringing awareness to the problem in such a way that you, Eva, would be willing to make changes.

Right.

That's delicate. Very similar, I'm sure, to you dealing with your clientele.

Exactly.

I want to know what she said.

Well, she was so gentle. I mean, truly. And I mean, the numbers don't lie either, Right. So I saw the numbers. I couldn't make sense of a lot of it. That's been a growing awareness for me especially. I mean, I'm much more aware today, for sure. But she was not, she did not present it as if you're on fire. But I was. I now know I was on fire. Yes. Yes.

And I, you know, and that maybe. Maybe I should have. Right. Maybe I should have. I don't know. But I feel like sometimes if you come at it that you're on fire, people will run.

That's right. I wouldn't have believed you.

And you're like, that would never happen to me. Right. And it would be. It was such a disconnect from your reality that the chances of you making behavioral changes based on fear would have been off putting.

Right.

But something that you said had to have resonated enough to make change. And I'm saying that because many of us, and I'll just use us as an example. Me as an example.

Right.

Very similar to each of the stories in this room. Very busy, have practices. Right. Running crazy. And it shows up, the body keeps score. And when we have to make change because we now see we have awareness, something happens, it's that Person who says to us in a calm, loving way, but in a way in which resonates with us, that gives us the. I gotta get this done. So something for you had to have because, you know, you had something that was near and dear to your heart, you're passionate about it. And remember you said, you know, you are very.

Okay.

Intense.

Yeah.

So I'm sure you go at everything in your life intensely. So how do you stop doing that? Or did you.

I do feel like I have. I'm so much more relaxed today than I was when I first saw Kelly.

Well, I think the first thing you embraced, though, if we're honest, the first thing you embraced was the food.

Yes, it was.

And that's where I started with her. I was like, we've got to get to.

It drove my family crazy.

Yes, that's okay. Because I felt like, you know, 90% of our inflammatory driver comes from the food that we eat. That's right. And I felt like if I could lower that burden and that you could see some type of physical response and an improvement in your numbers because you were very numbers aware, like, you wanted to see testing, you wanted to have comparative results. I felt like if we could start there, then we could make progress, and that's where we started.

Yeah, right, right.

But when you're in the midst of a storm. I'm just going back here because I need to really understand, because sometimes we are so passionate for them. But when you're in the midst of the storm, you saw that. You saw what needed to be changed, yet intensely focused on this passion. Right. Of yours. Were there some fears associated with making the changes?

I wanted to feel better. I didn't want to feel tired. And at that time, I was seeing a lot of clients a day and sitting in the chair all day long.

So you recognize.

I did, but I needed somebody to say that to me, too.

That's it.

I needed somebody to say, hey, this isn't good. You need to get up and walk around for 10 minutes or so, even take some freeway to the office. You know, there's a lot of things you can do to incorporate your day in your day.

Yeah. We had to bake some things into her day instead of totally rehabbing the schedule. It happened over time. Over time, it rehabbed your whole schedule. I mean, I can't even get into theory anymore.

And I have rehab. I sure have. I'm very intentional today. Whereas before I would go, okay, that's fine, send them on. No, I just have to really have good boundaries.

Right.

And you didn't see it. It sound, sounds like as a radical change per se, she was giving it to you in bite sized pieces that you could incorporate.

That's right.

And I just think that's so important for people to hear. Oftentimes they think, you know, it's I have to go from zero to 60, you know. And the point is you're already doing 60.

Right?

Right. So where can we meet you where you're at to begin making those small bite sized changes?

I just appreciate you sharing your story because I know that's not always easy to get into the physical aspects of your story, but I think think it's such an important part for people to hear that even though you could be living your passion and you could be full of creativity and good ideas, if we do not take the time for our self care and awareness to what our body truly needs, then we're not going to be able to stay the course. You know, burnout is so incredibly high. And so I think that's, you know, a huge message for us to really hone in on. But I want to shift gears a little bit.

Okay.

Because I feel like there's more to the story, to what you and Roan actually are providing to the community. When I read your book Sex, God and Chaos, did I get that right?

You got it right.

I was, I was really intrigued by the start of the addictive behavior for men. And I feel such an obligation now because, you know, we treat male sexual health in our clinic and Lori does as well. And I've been afforded the opportunity to have many conversations with men regarding their sexual health and I feel privileged to be able to do that in a healthy way. But I had no awareness of the. And I should have put this together, but I had no awareness of the development of self soothing, using masturbation and oftentimes pornography.

Right.

And then what that can lead to when you enter into a relationship and marriage and also the, the effects of that on sexual dysfunction. I knew about the connection of pornography and sexual dysfunction that we see commonly.

Sure.

But having the language to talk to them about how that got started without it being a judgy conversation was often challenging for me. And I feel like that book gave me the language and the awareness of how that can develop for men. And you know, they want to be better and sometimes they don't understand how to walk themselves out of needing that comfort and what that can look like in a healthy relationship and marriage.

Right.

So I want to say thank you for that part of the book. What else would you say to that, Eva?

Around men and their sexuality, a lot of times at the root is going to be big T traumas. Right. That they haven't dealt with and anxiety. Because what happens in the brain, the fear center of the brain, the limbic part of the brain and the pleasure center are side by side. And so with orgasm, the fear center shuts down for a moment. Right. And all is well with the world. And so it's really a way to medicate self, medicate anxiety. So if it's something that they really want to get help with, because what will happen over time, and we see this with even 20 year old young men that they have conditioned themselves to only be able to orgasm through masturbation. They can't have an orgasm with a real woman. The vagina feels different than his hand and so he's not able to finish.

And they've actually trained their body to do that through repetitive activity.

And it is the saddest thing. You know, the wife does not understand. You know, maybe she, she's been a virgin when they got married, she saved herself for marriage and now he's not able to perform with her.

Absolutely.

It's really sad.

So in functional medicine we have a saying of, you know, instead of spending so much time only pulling people out of the river that's raging, we should go upstream and find out why they're falling in.

Oh, I love that.

And so when I read that part of the book, I felt that, you know, like this is really where we need to be focusing our attention is why, why did they fall in the river to begin with?

Yes.

And then what can we be, what can we do? What conversations can we be having with our young men?

Right, right.

In a way of helping them with their anxiety.

Right.

So that they don't develop the defaults of masturbation as their solution.

Right.

For their anxiety. And that we teach them healthy ways of bonding.

That's so good.

Right. So how do we do that?

You know, there's a couple of things that come to my mind as you're, as you're talking. You know, this is not just us, it's through our training. But it's recommended that the couple may go through a 90 day period of abstinence. It resets the brain. And when we say abstinent abstinence, there's going to be no, no orgasm for 90 days. They both agree, you know, that that's, and that resets the brain so that now they can see what is my, my sexual drive, what is what is it? Right. Especially if someone's conditioned themselves to be sexual every single day. Right, right. So, and then as a man ages and he wants to keep that up, but yet he doesn't have the hormone levels to keep that up. He may turn to porn. And this is an older man now, right?

Yeah.

So his porn use may increase, his masturbation may increase. You know, it's just a mess when a couple comes into the room. But the willingness to do a 90 day period of abstinence can reset the brain. Then they work on their. During that 90 days, working on their intimacy, their really connection with one another. It's a beautiful thing to see. It is beautiful how loving they become with one another.

So that must be what drives your further passion as we talk about, you know, that passion and creativity side of things. To really continue to do what you do because of the changes in people's lives.

Absolutely. I mean, it is so hopeful. It's not hopeless at all. I mean, this week alone, it brings tears to my eyes to see the growth in people.

So obviously in the arena that you're in and helping, you know, you come alongside the female, typically.

That's right.

And oftentimes they're the ones that were betrayed.

That's right.

And so when we think about betrayal trauma, is that classified as a complex trauma or how is that classified in the brain? Like what is the.

It can be especially like mine would have been complex trauma because of the abortion and addictive family system that had never been dealt with and now betrayal. So that's complex.

So it's complex because there's multiple layers.

Multiple layers that exist. Yes, but you know, and each one needs to be treated. Right. And betrayal trauma, a lot of times the. I mean, everybody has something in their story that, whether it's a little T trauma or a big T trauma. So it can be complex, but there's different levels. Right.

So let's talk about the tools that you use to help walk someone through recovery from a trauma. Whether that's betrayal trauma or whether that's just relational trauma. I know there was a tool that you used with me to help me map out my story. So let's talk a little bit about that.

Okay. One of the main pieces is what's known as a trauma wall, formerly known as a trauma egg. We've changed it to a trauma wall. We think it's a better analogy of what happens to us, how we will become walls off either from our emotions or we'll become walled off in relationships trying to self protect in unhealthy ways. And in the trauma wall, a person will identify all their ways they've been hurt by betrayal, abandonment, rejection, fear, or shame from their earliest memory up to present day. And so then they become. I mean, it's a great tool because they become so aware, they see the pattern of what has happened to. They're able to then identify what are my wounds, what are my shame messages, what are my I am messages. And once they know those, now they can speak God's truth to who you know, to those old messages.

Absolutely. And that's the powerful part of that, is being able to recognize the patterns.

Right.

Because we all have default patterns of behavior and ways that we behave when we are wounded.

Yes.

And being able to speak and do your self talk to tell yourself the truth, God's truth, about what that truly is, so that you can be more objective and not be hijacked, not have your brain hijacked by that experience that sets you on the path for maybe unhealthy default patterns of handling your stress.

That's right. And then another tool is emdr. So we'll take one of those in their trauma wall. We can take many of those, whatever they want to talk about, and go deeper in that memory.

And I think that tool, to be honest, can be really powerful in situations where it has been, perhaps childhood trauma, where they don't actually remember the details of the trauma. And there's so many questions in their mind. And that's oftentimes even what I'll see with individuals that aren't healing is they may not remember the trauma. So they're denying that there was ever trauma.

Yeah.

And I oftentimes will suggest, let's do some either tapping or EMDR work. Let's see if we can activate the body in a way that will help with the healing process.

It's bilateral stimulation. So you're using the right side and the left side of the brain. And it helps get you out of that loop of getting stuck in those thoughts.

So I just want to talk a little bit about emdr, because when I was first exposed to emdr, I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Like, how can something. So what seems to be hokey, let's be honest. Right. How can that really make a difference? So I want to talk about, like, what is emdr? Like, explain it to our listeners what the experience is like, okay, what happens in emdr?

So in emdr, it's identifying, like a client will come in. And we've already established what is Their safe complex. And we've tapped that in. We've also established their container. So it's a place where they can put things in the container when they feel like they're overwhelmed with emotion, or they can go to their safe, calm place. So they've already done a trauma wall. They've already got those tools to be able to calm themselves down. So when they come in and they're ready to work, do some work around some memories, go deeper in the memories. I like to use what's called tarot tappers. And they will bring up the memory, and then there's just really some guided questions helping them say, okay, what does this memory say about you? And we'll tap that in. Then we'll bring up another memory. Let's say they come up with the memory and the memory. They go into all the details, and they can remember a lot more in that setting than they typically can in daily life. They may be able to remember what the sofa felt like when they were five years old, when they felt intense fear because there was a raging parent. They may be able to remember a smell. They maybe remember the color of the walls. I mean, they just are able to tap into so many details of it, and it gets to the place where they're able to kind of normalize the experience. Instead of having it stored in the limbic part of the brain and be overcome with fear, they can now see it in a different way.

Reframing it.

Reframing it.

But it's the eye movement that allows that processing out of the limbic system to happen.

That's right. And that happens in our REM sleep, too, the eye movement.

If people are getting REM sleep.

REM sleep.

Right.

Yeah. I've got a question for you guys. How much REM sleep do you think is good?

About 20%. 20% of your sleep cycle should be REM sleep.

Okay.

So when you're looking at your data on your aura ring, which we highly recommend that you tap into, if you're really interested in am I getting restorative sleep? About 20% should be REM. About 20% should be deep. And your deep sleep should be early in the evening, and your REM sleep should be later in the or early morning. Right. And so looking at the pattern of how you're sleeping, I think can be important when you're trying to understand, is my body healing, Is my body repairing, Am I getting into a parasympathetic state with sleep? So it's a really cool tool to be able to use it Gives us other data points to help navigate for patients when they're really stuck.

Right.

I really love having that technology.

Me, too. I love it.

I appreciate what you did. Going back in the steps leading up to emdr, you know, it really made me think about experiences people have had in their past. Perhaps they have gone to counselors in which things were offered to them, therapeutic solutions were given to them, and perhaps not in maybe the way in which they should have been done and threw their hands in the air and basically said it didn't work for me. I have consistently seen EMDR be helpful for my patients. Now I specifically work with certain counselors that I know are. Are taking them through, as you suggested. You know, those steps because it is so hard. It is so important, it sounds like, to have that awareness of it, but have you had people that have come to you who have done a lot of work before, and they're saying to you, like, I'm going to give this a try. A lot of distrust may be coming to you, and how do you. How do you address that? How do you overcome that with them?

Many times it's, you know, and even with a trauma wall, let's say they've done a couple of trauma eggs in their past. But I like to say, you know, there's always new things. We're always growing. So your trauma wall today may look completely different than it did 10 years ago. I know mine. I've done about six in my lifetime, and each one looks different. So we're going to begin to deal with what we're ready.

Yes.

To deal with.

Yes.

Right. We're always in growth mode until the day we. We die. Right. There's always new awarenesses.

So it's not the. Always the counselor. It's not always. It could be their readiness as well.

Yes.

And not to give up, like, keep searching. Because like you said, we're always work in progress.

And, you know, not every counselor is for a. Every person.

That's right.

We resonate with certain people, and maybe we don't resonate with another.

Exactly.

And that's okay.

Absolutely.

So don't be, you know, don't have the stance that it didn't work for me.

Right. Try somebody else.

We just need to try a different approach.

Yes. Or a different modality.

So let's talk for a minute, because I think this is important to define, too, you know, what is the purpose of counseling? Because a lot of times people feel like they're going to the principal's office or. Or they did something wrong and they're going to be judged or told that they're wrong. Oh, right.

Yes.

I know it's a hard conversation with patients because oftentimes I have to encourage them for months and months before they actually will go and do some work on themselves. So what would you say the point of counseling is?

I'm just going to say it very simply. It's truly to know yourself.

Exactly. Yes.

It's truly to know yourself. What gets triggered inside of you? Why do you react the way that you do? Or instead of responding to things. I didn't understand why I reacted the way I did. I didn't get it. You know, maybe somebody comes in and says, I just. I can't say no. Well, there's a long history of. We need to look at all of that. Why?

Yes.

What is that about?

I think that's powerful because, again, if you understand the point in something, and I like to say my job as a clinician is also to help you understand you.

Right.

You know, I look exactly. I'm looking at biometrics. Right. I'm not getting into a lot of the things that you get into, but my primary goal is to help you understand you and then give you some tools and strategies to make changes. I can't make you make those changes. I just make suggestions. You can make decisions about what you do. But I think it's so powerful. People want to know. People want to know, how did I get here?

Yes. What has happened to me?

What has happened to me? And like you say, what has happened through me.

Yes, exactly.

That is causing this distress or dysfunction and how do I walk myself out of it?

Right.

So that's your role, which you know, to help them see in themselves how much time should someone commit. And I'm going to say this to say, because in our role in functional medicine, we say, listen, this is going to take you X amount of time, maybe 12 to 18 months, kind of framing out reality. Right. And expectation. I find that in counseling or when recommending counseling, they want to go to one session.

One and done.

So I want to know what you tell them when you see them.

Well, it depends many times if it's betrayal. Right. There's been betrayal in a relationship. The research shows it takes a partner three to five years to really heal that. And for their. I mean, that's a long time. Right. And that can be really discouraging. But I let them know that pretty absolutely up front that this is going to take a while. But many times I'll say give it a year and let's see what happens after a year. Gratefully, we have a lot of resources in our area, which is a wonderful thing. There's a good recovery community here, believe it or not. And you know, in our practice, we do a lot of intensives, so they can get a lot of individual and couple help through intensive. You can go to a three day intensive and do a year's worth of work of therapy. I mean, it's amazing what happens, you.

Know, I know sometimes when I recommend counseling, I'll say to them, I need you to give it successions. Because I feel like if I can give them that period of time, at least frame it out for that. Because I think sometimes they're not sure, due to past experience, if they're gonna like someone willing to do the work. And it's almost like you have to say to them as you're sending them, I've just felt, you know, I've had this experience with them, is saying, I need you to at least commit to successions before you say whether you like that person or not. Because so oftentimes I get feedback. I just. It didn't work for me. I didn't like them. I didn't. And how do you really know? Because don't you spend the first couple of sessions really digging into that?

Exactly.

The history. Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

So that's good advice, right. For us as referring.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you really don't do much therapy in the very beginning, quite honestly. You're really gaining a lot of history. It's a safe place for them to really talk. And it's important for them to hear themselves talk. They'll even connect some dots as they hear themselves say what's really happening. Right. And, you know, we all have the answers within ourselves.

Exactly.

Therapy, it's just.

And sometimes that's the uncomfortable part of therapy. It is having to hear yourself say what you don't want anyone else to hear you say, much less yourself. Right?

Yes. Oh, this is my reality. Oh, goodness, yes. Right. But good mental health lives in reality.

Yes. And I love that you got to say that again.

Good mental health. Health lives in reality.

Yeah. And I mean, there's so much power in that. You know, if we could learn to tell ourselves the truth and surround ourselves with people that will also tell us the truth.

Exactly.

Life can be a beautiful thing.

Yes.

Right.

So we've had, you know, a lot of good times spending, you know, just today talking with you about your story and how your story, you've used to. To really impact people around this community and beyond. Cause I hear that you do some zoom work as well. Right. But really using your passion to change people's lives profoundly. I just pray every day that people find their passion. And what I hear you saying is your passion was found in your story.

Yes, that's right.

Yes. So, Ivo, tell us how people can get into contact with you for counseling, number one. And then number two, how they can view access to your book and the podcast that you and Rowan have done as well on the website for the book.

Okay, so Our website is LifeWorks, Ms. Our book is on Amazon, Sex God and Chaos. We also have a website just for the books, sex God, chaos.com that has a link to Amazon and some other resources on that website as well.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Anything that you feel like you need to say as we close, Any words of wisdom or advice that you want to share with our listeners?

I love just this phrase. You know, connection is the cure.

It's powerful.

Yeah. We heal in community.

Well, thank you so much for sharing this time with us. I look forward to future conversations because there were several things, let's say that we talked about today that we can dig into a lot deeper. And I'm excited for that and for the future of that.

Me too.

Me too.

And I'm proud of the book. I have to say, I'm really excited. I know Rowan's been talking about that since I met him the very first time we talked about his book. So I'm so excited to see that come to fruition.

And.

And then once I read it, I'm like, what a blessing to have. And I would encourage listeners, if you are a mom or a grandmom of boys and really of girls, too, you need to read the book from that perspective. You know, what can we be doing day to day to really empower them in a way that they develop sexual wellness from a very early age?

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you. You. You're welcome.

Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. You can find more information about synergy at Synergy for Life. That's S Y N E R G e E. The number four. Life.com.

And then Synergy Connect is our Facebook. And then please make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app so that you make sure you get future notifications of episodes.

Sam.