Loshni Manikam

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Today on the podcast we talk with Loshni Manikam. Originally hailing from Durban in South Africa and now residing in sunny Southland, Loshni.

Speaks to us about the courage it takes to move halfway around the world and then move cross country with a one year old and three year old in tow.

Loshni discusses both the fulfilling and frustrating aspects of motherhood as well as finding your own identity.

Her passion is now bringing out the best in rural women and her working days are spent traveling around New Zealand, activating the next generation of leaders.

First question that we crack into is just so what we're trying to do here is just understand more about you as a person. We'd love to know your journey. You obviously have such quite a profile now in the rural space, particularly in the dairy space. So we'd love to know a little bit more about you, Loshni. So the first question that we generally throw to our wonderful guests is have you always lived rurally? So obviously you're very much in the rural space now. You're big in the dairy world. But tell us a little bit about what your experiences were growing up.

So I definitely did not grow up rurally. I grew up in Durban, the third largest city in South Africa on the coast. Had no real connection to rural except we had some distant relatives that we'd visit during the holidays, but they were more horticulture rather than, you know, stock. And I love visiting our, you know, farming relatives. It was always exciting to go there. But no, I grew up in a suburb outside the biggest city in third biggest city in South Africa and I was very much a tomboy. I've got an older sister and a younger sister, so I was the son my dad never had and, and I hated the idea of hanging around in the kitchen and learning from my mother. So I was always out there with my dad and we'd go fishing and things like that. So I'm very much that tomboy and I think that has probably stayed with me for most of my life. That's A key part of who I am. I'm not a girly girl. I embrace that later in life. I enjoy that. But, yeah, not who I was growing up. I did well at school. I was a good girl. I was a very good girl. Growing up in a conservative Indian community, it takes a lot of courage not to be a good girl because, you know, it's a very. It's a sort of the tribe, you know, tribe raises a child kind of mentality, the whole village, which is good in lots of ways because you always have adults that will love you and nurture you. But it's also scary because you can't do anything wrong. You can't walk down the streets, you know, of the big cities and hold a boy's hand because someone will see you and someone will tell your mother. And so, yeah, this very conservative, sort of traditional upbringing. My parents were very keen on making sure all three of their girls were educated. So, you know, very keen on getting us through uni. So that's why I did my law degree. And my father was a lawyer already. So, you know, at the end of school, at 18, I had no idea what I wanted to do and what I wanted to be. And, you know, you get. Because if you do well enough at school, you do get steered towards some cliched careers, you know, like, do you want to be a lawyer? Do you want to be a teacher? Do you want to be a doctor? I wasn't smart enough. No one tried to steer me towards being doctor. So the other careers, that's what they try to steer you towards. And for me, it came down to, look, I do enjoy working with people. I think I knew that then. And that's again, another thing that stayed throughout my life. And I knew that with law, that at least there'd be different clientele and different cases, there'd be some variety. I already knew that I would get bored with repetition. I'm just not that kind of person. Some people are. That is their strength. They can do the, you know, the repeat work, and I can't. So law kind of was something I wasn't passionate about. But I thought, yeah, this ticks a lot of my boxes. Plus, you know, my father was a lawyer, so I knew I had guaranteed employment. But then, you know, after I finished school, sorry, university, I decided, I want to travel, you know, just for about a year until I settled down to my serious adult real life and, you know, joined the law firm and do all those boring adult things. And, of course, that one year of traveling turned out to be two and a half years. And during that time I met this Kiwi farming boy from Northland called Donald and he convinced me that New Zealand was this land of milk and honey and I should come over here and you know, when you're young, when you're in your 20s, I don't know if you remember, sorry, you ladies are so young. It's like yesterday for you. But for the other listeners, like when you're in your 20s, right, you think you're bulletproof. You think, of course I can immigrate to halfway across the world, to a country I've never been to, where I know no one. And of course we're going to have a lovely, successful life because we can live on love and fresh air. And I'm so dumb when I look back on that now because I've got kids that are 21, 18 and 14 and I don't know what I'll do if one of them said to me, hey, mom, falling in love with someone from halfway across the world, see you later, you know, so that's how I ended up being here. So I don't know, do you think that's enough of that background of where I started?

That's wonderful. That's exactly what we were trying to get out. So that, that is absolutely perfect. And so just to, I guess round out that full story. So you meet a Kiwi man, he convinced you that New Zealand was the land of milk and honey. He was a dairy farmer from Northland. How did you end up in Southland?

Yeah, so we started our, you know, New Zealand. I started my New Zealand farming journey, you know, joining John Donald on the family farm up in Northland, into Kopru, outside of Dargaville. And of course I made that mistake that lots of us do and that I didn't marry the oldest son so, you know, his older brother was ready to take over the farm. And so then, you know, Donald and I got to explore our options and we went from Dargaville, we had two years in Whangarei on a dairy farm there. We stepped up to farm management. And then friends of ours bought a farm in Southland and they offered us a job as to go 50, 50 share milking down here. And it was a really great opportunity. Again, another theme of my life that I realized, young and dumb, you know, didn't know anyone in Southland and came down on a one year contract for share milking, which is pretty unheard of, right? To root up your entire family and everything, you know, for a one year contract because we Wanted to just have a look, see, we wanted to see, look, could we make it work? Is this something we could do? Because at the end of the day, if it didn't, we could have gone back. So we did a year and we absolutely loved farming down here in Southland and living down here. And then we signed on for another three year contract and then from that 50, 50 share milking, we've moved to where we currently are and we've been here 14 or 15 years on an equity partnership. And so, yeah, love living in Southland.

I love it. That is, it takes a lot of courage not only to move halfway around the world, but also to like you say, uproot maybe what might have been a young family at the time. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We had a one year old and a three and a half year old at the time. Yeah.

Oh my gosh, you're an absolute. How like.

Yeah, like I said, either courage or just lack of critical thinking or something, you know, just young. But sometimes I, I love that, I love that we have those stages of our lives where we actually can not overanalyze everything, not think about every worst case scenario. Because now approaching 50, right, that's the kind of thinking that is dominant for me and I do wonder how many opportunities that have come our way, all of us, but we are too scared to take that step. And so there is, there's definitely a beauty, isn't there, in that being at that stage in your life where you honestly think you're a wee bit bulletproof and like, what's the worst that can happen? You know, there's some advantage to that thinking.

I totally agree. I think that there are so many times, and I'm the same, there are, you know, when you make quite big decisions and moving across the world or even across islands in New Zealand is a really big decision. And sometimes if you consider them a little bit too much, you might not do it. And I think, yeah, that's such a good point, that as you maybe get a little bit older, you do a little bit less of that, but opportunity knocks for those who are open to taking it. So that's fantastic. You've actually had some really different roles, obviously going from law into dairy farming and now you're now a leadership coach and very well respected in the rural sector. So I'm interested in a couple of things here. So the first one is how did you make the, the leap or the transition from being a dairy farmer into, and I know that you still are, but into this, into the leadership space. And secondly, what have you found most fulfilling of all of the roles that you've done in your career?

Okay, if I can answer the second one first, because that's probably a quicker and easier for me, and the first one will probably be a bit more rambly. There's two things I think that I found most fulfilling about all my roles, and one of my roles that I would consider is being a mother. So, you know, I do think that's a key part of my identity. And like I said, my kids are 14, 18 and 21, and thank goodness they're not in the least bit interested in anything mom's doing, so they won't hear this podcast in which I say that I do consider that my most, probably my most fulfilling and frustrating, frustrating role is being a mom and having the privilege of being able to try to shape and raise three new human beings. You know, there are definitely moments where it's incredibly fulfilling. There are lots and lots of weeks and months and years where it's mostly frustrating. But that's one of my most fulfilling roles. And the other part I think of what's been more fulfilling for me in terms of my professional roles, it's definitely the last. But the coaching bit and the facilitation, working with rural people. And if I break that down more, because 99% of my work is with the rural women's, and that is the most fulfilling part is when I can be part of a woman's journey where either because of conversations we're having or coaching or facilitation, she has some insight, some self awareness, but just goes off. And when a woman has an insight, it's just like, honestly, like, I don't even need to get paid to be doing that. But because she's just realized something about herself and I love being able to witness that. That is the most fulfilling thing. It's not always a good thing. She's become aware of, like sometimes quite often with the woman that I work with, the realization the awareness can be that, oh my goodness, Loshni is right, I've been playing too small. And sometimes it can be quite a like, it's like a punch in the guts, you know, I'm not going to get many more clients after this podcast, am I? Because I'm talking about how I punch punch people in the gut. But it can be like that feeling of all the air leaves you for a minute, you go, oh, no, she's right. I have been limiting myself. And so it's not always a beautiful moment. But I I. I do find that fulfilling, that I can be part of that, because I know what it'll lead to. I know if we don't have that awareness first, you can't really move on. So, yeah, the fulfillment for me is very much around being part of women's journeys, the highs and the lows. I love that. Nothing could top that. All the things I've done. So the first part of your question was, how did I transition from farming to doing more of the coaching and facilitation and working with women? And it is a long story, but the short story is that I did reach that point where that a lot of farming women that I work with seem to reach that. You have the kids, you have the farm going, your farming business going well, you have your partner, and then you reach that stage or I reach that stage where, wait, hang on. Is this it? Like, is this all that I get to be and do and have for the rest of my life? Get up every day, get kids ready for school, get lunch boxes, you know, grab everything, yell at everyone, get in the car, do the kindy school, all that drop off, come home, you know, you either working a little bit on farm or you're doing something on computer, or you're involved in your community, or you're running around and you get the call and can you go, please pick up a tire from, you know, tires and wheels and you, you're doing all that stuff. And then somewhere in the middle of that day, I found that I used to be pausing and going, wait, is this it? And then I feel really guilty because I've got so much. I've got three healthy kids. And I'm so grateful for that most of the time, because not everyone has that privilege. You know, I'm married to a man that loves me and respects me and wants me to be happy again. You can't take that for granted. We have a roof of our head, food on the table. We live such a good life. And sometimes I sit there and think, what's wrong with me? Why do I want more? Like, am I greedy? Am I selfish? Like, what's wrong with me? So I reached that kind of moment, and now I know that I'm not alone. Now, 10 years later, I know there's so many of us that experience some version of debt, and so many of us that are stuck in that place of, I love my family and my farming business and all my professional life, but I want more. But then we don't know what the more is, and we don't know how to go and get. The more we don't have the support to get, the more so we're stuck. And that's again, that's where I have to end up with my career is I love helping that woman that I was back in 2010. So that's sort of the. It was. I had to reach a low point, a pain point before I could start the journey. And that's another long journey of, you know, another five or 10 years of figuring out and then I ended up with coaching. But hopefully that kind of gives you an idea of why the change.

But that's what I want to ask you about is that long and winding 10 year journey of how you became a coach. Because I want to know, you had that moment of is this it? Within that context of having that beautiful and some would say privileged life, how did you make that leap? Because it is a leap for a lot of women who may have those self realizations to that end goal of doing something else, whatever else is. How did you make that leap? Did you have mentors and champions that helped you propel yourself forward or was it just sheer grit and self awareness? Tell us about that journey that you took between that realization and to where you are now.

Okay. So the external part of the journey, especially in the beginning, it was very lonely. So in the beginning, the first two or three years, there were no peers and mentors. It was a very personal journey that I was going through and it was really on the outside. What it was was a journey of discovery. So googling, researching, trying to figure out what is it that exists that that had to fit in around my current life. I had young kids and I wanted to be the primary caregiver. It was not a role forced on me. I chose to be a mom and you know, Donald and I chose our lives where he was the primary breadwinner and he was working very hard on farm. And I wanted to be the primary caregiver. So I wanted to build my life around that. So flexibility, right? And just so many things. Even supporting our farming business around calving, you kind of need to be available. So there were all these barriers and probably the biggest thing I'd say that helped me then is the mindset shift. So that's the internal journey, is the going, okay, I could keep going, oh, I really want to do something, but where am I going to find something? I live in hidden bush outside of Invercargill that someone once called the a hole of the universe. Right. It was someone famous that he had called it Mick Jagger. I think that said, Invercargill is like the. A hole of the universe. I'm sitting out here at Hidden Bush on a dairy farm. Where am I going to find jobs or opportunities? I'm a mom of young children, and I support my partner in our farming business. And I could have sat there for a very long time, and I did, because I'm talking about 2010 as being the low changing point. But it was building for a few years where I'd kind of have these feelings and then I'd repress them and go, oh, but my life's not that bad, and carry on, really. I had to reach a point where I realized that I can't go on the way I am. And what helped me to keep going with the grit, with pushing through, even though I kept coming through barriers, was the fact that I realized that I was turning out to be a little bit miserable. And that was impacting the people that I loved the most in the world, which were my kids and my husband. So I was turning into what I now call angry mom and grumpy wife. And a lot of women in workshops, when I talk about this resonate, it's the light bulb. And they go, oh, God, yes, she's talking about me. You know, the kids can do something little and you yell at them and you feel so bad in that instant because they don't deserve that, you know. But it's partly because my frustration. And so when I had that real insight moment around, oh, my giddy aunt, I am turning into an angry mom and a really grumpy wife, and I'm hurting the people I love the most. I use that, that pain point, that embarrassment, that shame I felt in that moment as my anchor on a very bumpy journey. Because it is a bumpy journey to come from exactly where you said you have the insight. But then how do you take action? So I kept using that as my why. Like, we learn a lot about having a very anchoring why, and then the what and the how can come. When I work with women, I keep reminding them, you need to have a very compelling why you want to go on this journey. It's not enough to say, oh, I want more. Is this it? You have to have really compelling why. And when I work with one again, I talk to them about the fact that your why in the beginning should be anchored in pain. It's ugly. We don't want to do it. We want to think about all the benefits. It's like, say you want to lose weight, right? And then you think about, ooh, then I could fit into that, you know, those. That lovely dress that I want to wear. Or I can be more active. You think about all the good stuff. But in the beginning, with human behavior, especially with things that you want to change and that are hard to change, it's not enough to have the vision, the beautiful, exciting vision. You need to come from a place of pain. Because in the beginning, pain propels you on the journey. And then absolutely, at some point, a third of the way, halfway through, you are going to be drawn by the vision. But most of us start off going, okay, I want to do more, I need to do more. What am I going to do more? And you think about the vision. And we don't like to think about the pain of where we're at. But for me, what helped was really anchoring the fact that I was hurting the people I loved. And I keep saying. I kept saying that to myself, and I couldn't live with myself with that. So that's what made me go and research this thing called coaching, because I knew nothing about coaching in my mind. Coach, because, Remember, this is 2010, 2011. By the time I finally did my coach training, it took me 18 months to work up the courage and the guts to sign up for a program. So in 2012 was when I did my coaching training. So those two years, from the breaking point to that of research and to ing and froing and doubting myself, but kept anchoring myself with, I can't keep doing this. I have to change. It's not like, oh, can I change how, you know, all those kind of things? So I could ramble on forever, but I wonder, maybe I should just pause there.

I love that. I actually love that. I mean, a lot of the time we talk about people's mentors and champions moving through their career, and your. Your professional life, I suppose, has been a little bit different to a lot of others. And I think, gosh, talking about the why and that it needs to be anchored in a pain point, jeepers, that is. That's deep. And it's true, because people are more motivated to fix the pain than they are to get the pleasure right? So.

And the other thing about the pain point with rural women is that I have found that the women I work with are so kind, are so caring, are so nurturing. The reason why women are not thriving, that I find, is not because we're bad at thriving. It's not because we're dumb. It's not because we don't know how it's because we don't know how to say no. We are so nurturing. We give so much to our communities, to our farming teams, to our partners, to our children, to our parents. They're always doing and doing and doing. And so I've learned this trick that if I want to help a woman to actually change, I will. You know, I always say hashtag sorry, not sorry, but I will make it about her impact on the people she loves the most. And I will say, okay, cool. You're going to forget your dreams, you're going to not look after yourself. Core basic self care. Because you're too busy doing all this stuff for your kids. How are you turning up in the lives of the people you love the most? And with women, the only way I can get them to actually start taking steps is not just about the pain, but the pain's got to be about someone else because we will put our pain, we will wear that till the day we die. We'll go to the grave with it. But if I can make you feel guilty about the pain you're causing to the people you love, then and only then do I find that most women will start going, okay, I actually have to change something in my life because I won't be that for the people I love. But I'm okay with that being my life until my kids are older, until we get a bigger farm, until we get more staff, until there's more time for me. We're willing to give up a decade of our lives, 10 years, 15, 20, we're willing to wait until, and they can fill in the blank. But when I say to them, okay, but who are you being during that time? Not for you. Because I have found painfully through coaching, it doesn't work. I can, you know, they get it in their head, they understand the importance of self care and drinking water and basic stuff. But most of the women, high flying women that I coach will say, why is it that my self care is the first thing to go out the window as soon as someone else needs me? Life gets busy. Everything, we just chuck that out the window because we don't prioritize ourselves high enough. So knowing that and openly and with their permission, I will make it about other people in their life because that's the only way I can help women take action. Sad, but effective.

And I think the other part of that as well is that you can then elevate yourself to be a way better version of yourself for those people around you as well. And that actually elevates their experience of their life with you. So I think, I think it's, you know, it's a win, win both ways in my view. Just a slightly different kind of space now. You've talked a lot about the rural communities that you work with, particularly the women. And I think also you have grown a really neat community around you on social media, in media, in the ebook that you've written, which we might talk a little bit more about later. But in all of the community spaces that you're in, what do you enjoy most about living rurally, about being involved with rural people, about obviously being a big part of them, improving their lives? What are the really big things for you that you love in that space?

I suppose we probably touched on it a little bit already. But the two key things would be one, that I've been blown away because I've come in from an urban perspective and it's been a couple decades now, right. I immigrated to New Zealand in 1998, so it's been a while. It's. Half my life has been urban and half has been rural. But because I came into it with a fresh outsider perspective, I've been blown away by rural people in general in the sense that I feel like even though the world is changing and there's good and bad everywhere with rural people, they're just so hardworking, so giving, so nurturing. Like even now, if something happens to one of someone in the neighborhood, everyone and his dog, every man and his dog turns up with something. You know, they offer a tractor or you've lost some calves, so they'll offer calves, or they'll turn up with soup and everything they can. They'll offer a couple of hours of work. They'll offer. It's an amazing community spirit that yes, I know the world's modernizing and maybe we are losing, but that has really blown me away about how caring and nurturing rural people are. Men and women, even our rural men, that like to pretend like they're quite tough. But, you know, you see a rural man standing out there when he's, you know, experiencing any sort of weather, you know, disasters, if there's floods or there's droughts and they. You see a man close to breaking when he knows he can't fully feed his animals. You know, they care so much about our stock, about our land, about our fellow people. The thing, the flip side of that is we still don't know how to care for ourselves. If only we could turn some of that outward, caring and nurturing a little bit inward. And that's why I'll never be out of a job, unfortunately, you know, I will never be out of a job because it's such a journey to learn to look after yourself the way the rural community looks after everything around them. And the other thing I love about living rurally is I do love the access to nature, like, whether I'm sitting in my lounge and I. But every time I look out of my window, there's trees and there's, you know, it's. We're not living in a city, you know, we're not living in a concrete jungle. And the noise is always birds singing in my garden or just being able to stand on grass, you know, just. Or driving home, you know, from Invercargill to home, and the landscape and the sun setting and there's, you know, lambs over spring bouncing around, things that we take for granted. But I think, again, because I've had that privilege of coming in from the outside, it still blows me away. You know, you drive and I can see deer on my way home, sheep, cows. It's breathtaking. It really is beautiful. So it is the access to nature. And I have, to full disclosure, admit that I'm the kind of person who lives indoors most of the time, so I'm not out there making the most of nature. But in some ways, that's why I'm more grateful for it, because I don't have to do a lot to actually immerse myself and appreciate and, you know, just reap the bounties of nature.

That's awesome. And you're absolutely right. I think the amazingness of the outdoors and just enjoying those little things is just so, so powerful question. How do we take care of ourselves? You mentioned that. That is, you know, that is almost the Achilles heel of the rural community in the sense that we're always looking after others and not ourselves. And I know that you wrote a book on taking time to thrive. What is the best way that you can communicate some, I guess, some tips and tricks to our listeners out there who might be struggling with actually looking after themselves?

Oh, that's a good question. And, you know, like, everyone's so different, right? So there are no shortcuts. There's no easy answer. And to be honest, I think all the knowledge about looking after ourselves and what we need to do is out there and is very easily accessible. So many people have done a lot of good work in the last 10 years, 15, 20 years to bring all that knowledge right at our fingertips. So many of us know the five ways to well, being. So what I have found is that it's not that we don't know what to do in order to look after ourselves and it's not that we don't know that we are struggling a little bit. You know, a lot of women, we've got the self awareness now that I can't keep going like this. I'm doing too much, I'm heading to burnout. A lot of women that I'm talking to right now in the lead up to Christmas are tired and stressed and burnt out. So it's not that we don't know where we are is unsustainable and it's not that we don't know what to do. It's the gap in between what are our barriers to taking action and what I have found with my work. And you know, I'm sorry that I'm not giving you practical examples, I'm giving you sort of a more high level theory of it. But what I found with my work is that the things that stop women from taking care of themselves is that we don't value ourselves highly enough. And that's one of those moments where you can feel like it's a punch to the guts. Because our initial reaction is to go, yes, I do, you know, yes I am, I do. Look, I do think I'm important and you know, I've done. And we do have that initial reaction. But it's your actions speak louder than words. So if you do value yourself, are you doing some of the basic things? Are you drinking enough water every day? Because one of my mantras to women is that you cannot change the world if you are not hydrated. We've got these big goals, these big dreams, we want to achieve so much, but our mind, bodies and souls can't actually function the way they're meant to function if we're not hydrated and we forget to drink water. Water, which is something that you don't need to go out to a gym to do, you don't need to buy equipment, you don't need to. You literally can open a tap in New Zealand and drink water. Most of us have access to water the whole day and we don't do that. So I don't want to take it too big and broad. I think when you ask me what can people do? Start small. I would suggest that you start very, very small and you make sure you do the basic things. Ask yourself. The question that I like to ask women is how do you feel about the amount of water you're drinking every Day, are you feeling like you're okay or not? Just asking yourself that question. How do you feel about the movement you're doing every day? Do you feel like you're okay, you're not okay? Scale of 1 to 10. I like to do the scale of 1 to 10. So on a scale of 1 to 10, how are you feeling about how much water you're drinking? On a scale of 1 to 10, how do you feel about the movement? How do you feel about the amount or the quality of sleep you're getting? How do you feel about your nutrition, the food you're putting into your body? And you can start with just those four basics because, you know, when you asked me earlier, what are some tips and tools, it's for me, it's really is always going to come back to mindset and self awareness. You cannot change what you cannot see. You cannot change what you cannot see. So if you can't see that you're drinking only one glass of water every day, you're never going to change it because it's not something that's been red flagged to yourself that, oh, maybe I should drink two or three glasses of water a day. You can't change it. So start with the most basic thing. And the cool thing about that is that it sits within your grasp. You don't. You can be busy and still try thinking and do the self awareness around. How am I feeling about my sleep at the moment? Am I okay? Yep, I'm good. And you carry on. But just checking in with yourself, I think is a brilliant start. And especially if you're already feeling overwhelmed and stressed, I would hate to come into your life and tell you, look, you need to start sleeping eight hours a day. You need to start looking after yourself. Because most men will go, yeah, I know, Loshni, duh. But show me where in my busy day I'm gonna suddenly go off for an hour for yoga or I'm gonna go take time to connect with my friends. Or you know, it's just start small because it's incredibly powerful that we. Yeah, we overlook how powerful it is to do the 1% every day.

Yeah.

And how that will over time that changes your trajectory completely.

I find this myself actually. I think Emma's probably the same. It's like this, you know when you play that game of gathering all the eggs into the basket and someone can steal them out of the basket. I find wellbeing and overall health, I suppose is a little bit like that. Because other things, requirements from work, from family, from Friends, even just the environment that you're in. If you're a farmer, you're living where you work, there's always going to be these pressures. They're always stealing those eggs out of your basket and you have to get them back and get them kind of staying there to be in a really good space. So I'm constantly battling with that. But I think like you say, the first step is that self awareness of what am I doing at the moment. And I think also being okay and not beating yourself up that you're not doing all five or all four immediately because like you say that small change or taking that 1% is really important in the rural sector. Our statistics are pretty sobering in terms of our mental health challenges, how people kind of are often dealing with really difficult parts of farming life and personal lives. You're probably coming into contact with a lot of those women. What is something that you would change in the rural sector to improve those statistics to make or to help rural people, I suppose, live more thriving, thrive and live better lives.

I'm going to take your question and think more about it from a rural women's perspective, if you don't mind because. And I couldn't find any relevant studies in New Zealand, but the closest thing I could come across was an Australian study on the well being of rural people. And what they found was that while with rural suicide that rural men had higher incidents of suicide completion but they found that rural women had a higher rate of suicide ideation. So you know, like we deal with the fact that yes, our rural men are struggling and some of them will end up, you know, actually completing on suicide attempts. But because we can't see that rural women are struggling and there are more women, rural women struggling that actually attempt or complete on suicide, it's a harder thing to tackle. And so the thing I would love if I could wave a magic wand and change about our rural sector is that I would love to make our rural women seen, heard and acknowledged. I think what's leading to us not valuing ourselves is that we are invisible in our sector. I think when people think of a farmer and I was talking to a university lecturer the other day, he does MBA students and he said he asked his students to draw a picture of farmers and he was talking about how they drew this picture of, you know, farmers in flannel shirts and gumboots. And his point was that they didn't consider that farmers run multimillion dollar businesses and there's so many other sides to it besides the on Farm work. But my question to him was, did any of them draw a woman? And none of them had. So we are literally invisible in our sector and you cannot value what you cannot see. So I think that rural women are not valued in our sector to the extent our rural men are. I think rural women are invisible. And that if we are invisible or if we have been labeled that traditional sort of, you know, you're just the farmer's wife, you're just cooking, you're just cleaning, you're just raising the kids. Yes, those are important roles. But you get this feeling. No one ever tells you this, but there is this culture that you're not as important as the man who's out there every single day working really hard on farming. And like I said, no one has ever come up to me and told me this. So it's not like anyone is directly doing it. But I believe it's part of our culture that rural women are not valued as much as rural men. And I would love to help us to become more seen, heard and acknowledged because I know that's a key part of why we won't prioritize ourselves, that it's not external. I'm not worried about blaming anyone. I'm worried about how we internalize them, that we ourselves don't think we're that important. And again, I know some of us will push back against that. But again, I will say actions speak louder than words. If we believe that we are important and we're adding value, we will prioritize our own self care. We will drink water until we're doing those things. I think that it's theory to say that we've come so far. It's not like we've not come far. Right? There's so many amazing women and organizations that have done so much to get us to this point in 2021 where I can do the things I do, but I think that the majority of our sector is still stuck in. Yeah, but you're not that important, you know. And so if you're getting that message every single day that actually what you do is not as important what he's as he's doing, then you're never going to see yourself as important enough to take time out for yourself to go do your walk because your kids need you more, or the farm needs you more, or work needs you more, or the house needs you more. And those things are your only way of adding value. And what you're adding doesn't feel like that much anyway.

That's so spot on. It's spot on and it's something that I've been thinking about a lot because in my day job I am the one presenting at a lot of functions and they are rural functions, they are, you know, dairy events, they're cross sectoral events. I'd say I present to mostly males and the people that ask the questions, they're all males. I will very, very rarely get a woman who asks me a question. And particularly for events that are held in the evening, if only one person can go, who stays behind? Mainly the woman as well. So I cannot agree with your comments enough and I see it every day in my own job as well.

What will we do about it? Because I'm not about a blame game and I don't blame anyone for us being where we are. It's the self awareness again, if we can understand that this is where we're at. I think the power sits with us women, individually as well as collectively. I don't think we need to wait for the sector to change and for anyone to give us permission. If we want to be seen, heard and acknowledged. If we want to show that there's value in what I am doing, in raising my three children and taking on the primary role for that, I am doing an incredibly important job. And if others don't see it and value it, it's up to me to value it. It's up to each of us individually to actually be speak up, show up and be heard and feel valued. And that's how we will slowly start changing culture from the bottom up. And yes, I do think this is a cultural thing and an institutional thing, it's a systemic thing that unfortunately women are not seen as having as much value in general in the food and fiber sector. And so we need our leadership to be doing it as well. But if we keep waiting for that, I believe it's going to be a very, very, very long wait so we can do it, you know. So I encourage people that are listening to speak up when they go to these meetings, you know, to be seen, to be heard, to be acknowledged. And if you're not at that place, if you're not one of these women that are able to go to these events and industry staff or et cetera, then just do it in your mind, speak up in your mind, make yourself heard in your mind and value yourself enough just in your household that you will set aside, even if it's five or ten minutes a day to sit down and have a hot cup of tea because you do deserve it just by Being who you are so we can all make a difference. I think.

I love that. You're absolutely right and I enjoy what you said about changing that culture from the bottom up. And it's up to us as women to take control and to actually do something about it as opposed for waiting for the industry to change. So thank you. Some wonderful points there. And look, our last question I would like to ask you in loop right back round to the start. You see, I think you were approaching 50 and perhaps the question now is okay, so, so what's next? What's next for Loshni? You've made such a radical change from, you know, where we began in our conversation about, you know, growing up in South Africa to here where you are now. But we really excited to hear what Perhaps the next 12 months might look like for you and some exciting things.

Oh, I'd be excited to hear that too because I'd love to know what I'm doing as well. No, look, I do definitely have a couple of projects, you know, on board. I'm really excited about working with women in Horticulture because they're quite keen to support their members and you know, create a bit of a tribe for them. Very excited about that project, you know, very much values aligned with thriving farming women, which is, you know, my business and what I do. But really always what it is, I think for the next little while is I want to figure out ways to reach more women and especially grassroots women. That's always, it's probably more a 10 year outlook rather than a one year outlook. It's how can I Because you know, I do have opportunities and I am very privileged to have platforms like this and in other platforms in my own, you know, business and all social media accounts and stuff. But I don't only want to be sort of top down kind of thing. I really want to work with women that will work with other women. I want to enable the enablers. If I can be involved with, you know, other women all around this country also want to do something that supports other rural women. I'd love to support those women. Don't know if I'm making sense, but yeah, really supporting enable the enablers because I don't think it's up to me. I'm just one person and I don't definitely don't want to be traveling all around the country and Covid is going to be doing that. But there's so many amazing women sitting there right now that have this little dream or little hope that they would love to help Another group of women, but they don't have the confidence or they don't have the support. And I would love to be that confidence and support and give you that kick up the bomb and tell you, of course you can. You can start with five women. You can, you know, and I can help you with that. So I just want to keep reaching more women, especially to give them the message that you are not alone. You are not alone. If you're sitting there thinking, wait, is this it? What's wrong with me? Like all these thoughts that we have at one o' clock in the morning, please trust me. I've now worked with hundreds, if not thousands of women. And now, 10 years later, from 2010, Loshni, I can tell you you're not alone because I've had those thoughts and I keep talking to her. At the end of my workshop, one of the most fulfilling things is a woman comes up to me with big eyes and grasps my hand and goes, oh, my giddy aunt. It's like you were in my head. And then she almost scurries out of there because she was seen, someone saw her. And in some ways it's powerful for her to be seen, but it's also scary. So I really want to reach more women to help them understand you're not alone, just so we can talk about this stuff and help her understand there's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with, you're not a bad mom, you're not a bad wife, you're not a bad farming partner, you're not a bad anything. If you sometimes want something for you, it's actually human nature. So yeah, it's keep, it's the discovery. Because I do have a bit of an entrepreneurial sort of mindset and I love pivoting and I try things and I've done an online course, done the ebook, but I keep trying to learn from the women themselves. How can I provide this information to them in manageable, digestible, bite size, applicable ways that they can apply in their life rather than sitting here as an expert and trying to tell them all these things. But if they can't actually apply them in their life and make behavior change, then what's the point? You know, like all this information that I'm talking about exists. Nothing that I'm saying is stuff I invented or came up with. It's the next part. How do we actually help and support these women to do those things at grassroots level?

I love this. I love the idea of coaching a new generation of coaches too. Because that just amplifies your impact massively from what you can do as one woman into creating all these epic little activated people who can go out and activate another 10 people. And it just gets bigger and bigger. I think one thing that you will do for any, any workshop that you run, I'm sure, is provide those women with the time and space to think about those things that they do need to do. And then it's not like, oh, I can't go and do this thing anymore because I've sat down, I've taken the time and I understand what it is now that I need to, I need to do to change and to actually amplify my life and thrive. Right. So just in closing, I would love to just say a big thank you Loshni, not only for speaking with us today, but for all of what you do for rural women. I know that you've supported our organisation with some events in the past which were just fantastic. So there's a big honoring part there from us to you. Thank you. And thank you for being so generous with your time, with your knowledge and with your thoughts today, sharing some really vulnerable parts of yourself and your journey. So, yeah, we really appreciate it.

Oh, thank you so much, Claire and Emma. And I appreciate having this opportunity to talk about myself because I love doing that, but I do would like to just, you know, throw that back to you ladies and say, you know, this is a big part of what, you know, my mission, which is helping women be seen, heard and acknowledged. And you are playing a critical part with this podcast in telling real stories and creating a space where women like me can actually be real and vulnerable. And you know, because I did think about this podcast and I could have had really polished answers, I thought, ah, stuff it, people are either gonna like you or they're gonna, you know, not. And I'm, I'm nearly 50. It's one of the liberating things about getting old. It's like, oh, well, so what? So thank you very much for the opportunity.

I love that. That's awesome. You're welcome. And it is so nice to, yeah, just to chat and get to know you. So thank you for your time. I've just, I've taken notes the whole time. So yeah, thank you.

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