Breaking the Stigma: A Debt Conversation That Doesn’t Suck with Keziah Bollinger

Foreign. This is Busy Getting Better, the podcast for women who are committed to prioritizing their own personal growth. I'm your host, Madison J. A mindset and money coach, a first generation wealth builder and a woman on a mission to help you master your finances and live your best life. Money is not all we are covering though, because in order to live your best life, you have to become your best self. So we are diving deep into all things personal development and bringing you the mindset set shifts, money, tips and inspiration. You need to go out there, be bold and build the life you can't stop daydreaming about. It's time to get busy, babe. Busy getting better. What is up you guys? Welcome back to the podcast. Today's episode is going to be a little bit of a different vibe. I am blessed to have my dear friend Kezia Bollinger on the show today and we wanted to just have an honest and and transparent conversation around debt. We both have had chapters of our life where we have been in debt and have gotten out of it offline. We have had so many conversations with each other about just how shameful the word debt can feel and just how lonely the debt payoff journey can be. And obviously we are talking a lot about things that are traditionally kind of hard to talk about. And we're doing it in a very conversational way in this podcast to really kind of like let you in on what some of our YAP sessions say sound like. I think sometimes it can be really healing and helpful to hear people talk about a topic that is traditionally filled with shame and all of those negative emotions in a way that is not. We both learned so much from our chapters of being in debt and we both agree that those chapters, those lessons that we learned, really propelled us to where we are now. And we have found so much gratitude for the lessons that we have learned during those phases and during those chapters. And so if you were someone who just feels like debt is heavy and it's lonely and you are embarrassed by it, or you have all these negative emotions attached to it, I hope that you get an opportunity to listen to this podcast and to enjoy a really transparent conversation of two people that are on the other side and what we learned from it, what we would go back and tell ourselves at the beginning of that journey and hopefully this can just make you feel a little bit less lonely in that journey. And then we also talk a lot about a program that I've got available right now. I just officially launched and opened up doors to Debt Ditcher Academy, which is a group coaching program specifically designed to help you build your roadmap to zero again. I know how lonely it can feel. I know how heavy it can feel. I know how overwhelming the Google spirals and the shame spirals can be of trying to piece it together. And that is exactly why I created this program, is to bring women together that are working towards a similar goal and to help you build the roadmap and to have somebody by your side holding you accountable and cheering you on. If you are somebody that is in your debt payoff era and you're ready to step into your debt free era, I would love to see you inside. Enrollment is open and until October 15th, so click the link in the show notes and feel free to shoot me a message on Instagram at New Money Madison if you have any questions about if this program is right for you. And if it is, I can't wait to see you inside. Let's go ahead and dive into this episode. What is up, you guys? Welcome to the podcast. I am probably the most excited for this episode that I've been in a while because we are going to do things a little bit different on this episode. Today I am joined by my dear friend Kezia Bollinger, who we were just reminiscing. We have been friends for almost officially one whole year now. But this is the type of friendship where it's just like, I think I've actually known you my whole life. Like, we clicked so, so fast. And Kezia was so kind enough to agree to come on the podcast today to have a conversation that I think is really hard for people to have. And we just kind of want to let you in on our perspective of what it feels like to be in and get out of debt. So thank you, Kezia, for joining us today and I would just like to officially welcome y' all to Busy getting better.

Wow, what an intro. I literally cannot believe it's been almost a year. I feel like I'm. Like you said, I feel like I've known you for freaking years at this point.

Literally, like only a year is like crazy because we've just like gone so deep so fast. And sometimes you just meet people like that where you're just like, and now we're best friends and you can't get rid of me. And that's kind of how our relationship has been this year. So I love it for us.

I mean, same, truly. It's been the best.

My idea for this episode was like less of an interview episode, right? Like, you and I have both been in debt, we've both gotten out of debt and we both have the same perspective of like, I wish it didn't have to feel so heavy. I wish it didn't have to feel so lonely. There's so much shame that's associated with it. And so I just thought it would be really fun because we both learned a lot from that chapter and we've both grown a lot from that chapter. Chapter. I just think sometimes it's such a shame ridden conversation. I hope today you and I can just like break that a little bit for somebody listening and just make them understand that it doesn't define them and it's not their whole story. It's just a chapter and it doesn't have to mean anything about you if you don't let it. I'm excited because you and I have had so many conversations offline about how this chapter's really impacted us. And so, yeah, I think this will be fun and kind of just like a different approach. So this is going to be just a bit more of like a casual yap session between two BFFs that feel whatever we feel about debt. And so, I don't know, let's see how this episode goes. You guys, I'm excited, but what I thought would be fun to start off with and yes, we're talking about having fun and talking about being in debt at the same time is maybe just we can talk about, like, what got us into debt, right? Like, if we were to go back to where it all began, like, what for you, what was the start of your I am now in my debt era? Like, what, what, what did that look like for you? And how did you either decide to take on that debt? Was it a necessity? Was it a desire? Was it like a different place in your life? Like, let's just, let's roll it back a little bit and let the people hear about how we both got into debt.

Yeah, for sure. Well, first off, I'm so glad that we're having this conversation because we've had this conversation offline so many times and it's always around, like, how can we help other people not feel so shameful about being in debt? Because everyone's been in debt at some point pretty much. And so, like, why are we allowing ourselves to shame ourselves for something that just happens? Like, you can either let it cripple you or it can be the catalyst. And so we're gonna let it be our catalyst. My story actually goes back. I mean, you've heard it, but I'VE actually been in debt twice. The first time was the typical student loans. I had no idea what I was getting into going into college, you know, had that. Had a car payment, you know, the, the typical college things. And when I was married before, we had a plan, did the whole debt, the Dave Ramsey debt free thing, and paid off about $40,000 worth of debt. But then when I decided to literally blow up my entire life and I was like, I'm gonna get divorced. I'm gonna move halfway across the country. I'm going to sell one of my businesses. Like, all the things, I was just like, okay, this is just going to take getting back into debt a little bit because sometimes it's. You have to be pulled back in order to be catapulted forward. So with that, it's just, you know, two different types of debt. But understanding the framework behind it of, okay, I've done this before, I can definitely get out of this again. And two, like, my second time around, I was like, I'm not going to shame myself for being in debt again. Because, no, I never planned to be going through a divorce. I never planned to move out of my hometown. You know, choosing these, choosing these hard roads led me to this place. And I'm gonna let this be a huge learning lesson for me. And so I'm not gonna shame myself. So that doesn't get me anywhere. Like, it just, it just hinders me. So why would I. Why would I do that?

Yeah. I love how you just talked about. It's two very different situations. One is, I feel like a lot of us fall into this, like, systemic. I'm just gonna follow the. What I should be doing, right? I'm gonna go to college. I'm gonna take out the student loans. I'm gonna buy the new car after I graduate because, mama, I made it. I'm in corporate. I took out the student loans. I bought a brand new car at 23 years old. Like, brand new. First person to drive it off the lot. Now, listen, I love my car. I don't regret it. But from a finance perspective, I just spent the same amount on a college degree on a brand new car. And not really comprehending that, but that just felt like, well, this is what you do. Like, this is just the path here. And then your second time being in debt was you. It was a powerful moment of you being like, I'm not on the path that I want to be on in my life right now. And in order to get where I want to go, I'm going to have to make some really hard decision decisions. And that debt that you took on during that period was a propellant to where you are now. And just watching you go on the journey, right. I've only known you a year, but I feel like I know your whole story of like how happy are you that you took on that debt and how positive of an experience did that end up being for you on the other side? Right. It's like debt again, it has this like shame filled thing. But it doesn't have to be. If you're taking it on for a positive reason, if you're taking it on strategically, if you're doing something to positively impact your life, why would that be a bad thing?

Right. Well, I think too it's just, it's understanding that it's, it's just a season. Just how seasons of weather, they come and go. This it like both of these seasons, they were just seasons. I, I knew going back into it, I was like, I am choosing the harder road. It's going to take me kind of being pulled back a little bit, but I know for a fact that I will be catapulted forward. And so if I can just look at this like it's just the season, then it's like heard Lori Harder say this at the powerhouse event this year. Like, if we can make the mountains into molehills, if we can make the problems and struggles in our life seem so small and so easily accomplishable, no matter how big it seems in our mind, all of a sudden it's like, oh, that's not that bad. Like, of course this isn't a pattern that we want to find ourselves back into. Like we want to be able to practice, you know, smart, making financially smart decisions. My grandparents have instilled a lot of really great financial literacy and into me. But all that to say just this season alone, I was like, I refuse to let this crush me and I'm gonna mountain into a molehill. It's gonna help me become better. I'm gonna overcome it.

Well, I love that you brought that up because when I think back to when I was in my 70, 000 worth of debt and I, I all of a sudden was like, this debt is just like not serving me anymore. I talked about this a little bit yesterday, but um, it's like this identity that I had where for me, you know, I moved out at 17, I was taking care of myself from a finance perspective from a really young age. I took on all this debt to put myself through college, to be the first person to go to a four year university in my family to do these things that we should do. And then you get to the other side of it. And you know, I had the student loans, I had the car loan, I had credit card debt. And at some point like I was really wearing the debt. Like I didn't realize it in the moment, right, But I was kind of wearing it like a badge of honor where I was like, I did that shit, like I put myself through school, of course I have debt. I didn't have anybody else to pay for this for me. Like I did this, right? And when I, I realized that, that I was holding on to the debt, right? Like it was part of my identity because it had become how I got to where I was. And I very quickly was like, well, you know, it got me here, but it's not going to get me to where I want to go anymore. And so it was such an example of how a well intentioned identity was really keeping me stuck and it was keeping me trapped. I started to look at, well then who do I want to be, right? I actually want to be the millionaire in my family. And in order to get to that part, I am going to have to minimize the challenge in front of me. And so that's exactly what I did, is I felt like I was just at this, the bottom of the mountain and I, the debt was like what I was trying to climb up. When I shrunk the problem and realized that this was just step one of me being able to then get to my wealth building era, it got so much easier to get through. It got so much like more clear in directions of what the next steps are that I want to take. And, and it was just kind of like, yeah, minimizing the problem. I shrunk the problem. It was no longer my entire mountain, it was no longer my entire identity. It was just a chapter of life that I was in. Once I was able to get through this chapter, then I would get to the wealth building chapter and I get to the financial freedom chapter. I think that's what a lot of people want. And so I think that that's really important to recognize is just how to shrink the problem and not let it be part of your identity.

Well, another point too is like, while you're in it, like letting it teach you so many things because this podcast has you and you just released your debt debt to your academy, like, thankfully they have you for this because you're going to give them the tools in order to, to combat their debt. But while you're in it, like, I can't tell you how many things I've learned about just being financially smart, like, going through both of these seasons. I don't doordash food not shaming anyone who does, but I learned to. I learned to cook for myself. I learned, honestly, I've become a really good cook because these trying times, I didn't have a lot of money to eat out, so I wasn't going out to eat. I wasn't able to doordash. And so I got into a routine of, you know, looking at what's important to. To spend that money on. I feel like I hear a lot of times like, oh, like, I wish I just wouldn't doordash so much, or I wish I could just cook at home more. Like, let these be lessons to be like, okay, like, if I actually want to get better at this and I'm going to get out of debt, I'm going to follow Madison's plan. One of those is to maybe not doordash so much cook at home. You might find that you are actually a really good cook and you can cook really well. And you might find that cooking brings you so much joy and fun that you would have never found if you hadn't been in debt. And so we're always wanting to be better and, like, spend our money more wisely. But while you're in it, look at it through a different lens of, what is this teaching me? What can I learn from it instead of just letting it beat the crap out of you while you're in it? And, like, I'm terrible at money. And, you know, like, I. I wish I could just be more disciplined. Like, you can start today, one less doordash a week and find that TikTok recipe that you've been talking about to your friends and go to the store and make it, because I guarantee it'll be a fraction of the cost than that doordash. That's probably garbage anyway.

Yeah, I know. It's been like sitting in someone's car by the time it makes it to your house. Like, is it even fresh anymore?

I don't know.

I love what you hit on there. And I say this all the time. It's kind of like a hot take, I feel like. But I'm so grateful for my debt. Anyone feel like they're grateful for their debt? I feel like that's kind of how you have to get to that place. And I have a whole gratitude practice that I teach and talk about, of being grateful about Your debt. Because here's the thing, is that it does. It teaches you so much about yourself. It teaches you how you like to spend money. It teaches you how you don't like to spend money, right? Like, if you are someone who's sitting in a situation where you're like, I can't believe I financed a $3,000 couch on a credit card, like, you could be annoyed at yourself that you did that, or you could be like, you know, this is a really important lesson. I think next time I buy a big piece of furniture or I buy something, I don't actually want to finance it. I want to save for it. Because it doesn't feel fun to carry this, you know, this debt in this way. And then how can we be hyper grateful for the way you already spent your money? Like, as you sit on that couch at night, like, love it, thank you. Like, roll around in it and be like, God bless this couch that I get to lay on at the end of my hard days. Like, we need to have more gratitude for that stuff. And then to exactly what you're talking about. You learn so much about yourself. You learn about what's important to you, what your priorities are. I feel like my chapter of being in debt gave me such a springboard to recognize, like, who I wanted to be and how I wanted to show up. And, you know, this might go so deep for someone, but, like, what kind of legacy did I want to leave for my family, Right? When you view it through the lens of how we view things, right, which is always growth, mindset, always an opportunity to learn a lesson, then that's all it gets to be is, like, exploration of figuring out who you are and how you want to spend money and how you don't want to spend money. And also just recognizing that, like, money is such a game. And when you can start to view it through that lens of, like, okay, I'm just trying to master this level in this chapter that I'm in. And then the other thing on that is that the skills that you learn in this chapter are exactly the same. Like, they propel you into your wealth building because you're going to be diligent about what's important to you and how you're spending your money. You do get really clear on the life that you're trying to create. And then, yeah, it's. It's just this whole springboard. Like, it really, really can be. It doesn't have to be the shameful thing. It gets to be an opportunity for you to develop new skills. And yeah, become that cook so that your hubby is just so excited about it.

Exactly.

Manifesting that man for you. I want to talk about. Okay, so you brought up TikTok. So if you guys don't know because he's like a little tick tock, I don't know. What do you got? Like a million. I don't know. Like, you got. You got a lot going on over there. I looked at Kezia for tick tock inspiration. She was yelling at me yesterday because I keep saying I'm gonna be consistent on there and I struggle. But you had a tick tock that went absolutely viral, talking about getting out of debt utilizing the Dave Ramsey method. Right. So, you know, we like to think Dave. Dave's a little shameful sometimes, but the principles that he teaches can definitely be helpful. So tell us about your TikTok that went viral and what you were talking about in there, because it was like you were breaking down some tips and tricks. So let's talk about your viral TikTok for a second.

Yeah. Well, first off, the key to TikTok is you just post something and you don't care about it. And those are the ones that.

That's my problem. I just care too much. I gotta let go of that.

I literally remember where I was when I posted that. And it was Christmas Eve of last year. I was about to go into H E B. I was still living in Austin at the time, and I was just like, oh, this sounds like a good thought. I'll throw this up. I literally. It was an 8 second video and I basically was talking about the skill that I learned while I was in debt because I was trying to save money and I learned how to groom my dog. So I have a.

Yes. That's what it was. Yes.

I have an Aussie doodle. And grooming him is expensive. Like, even back on the east coast, that was still like almost 150 bucks to get him groomed every, you know, six to eight weeks. And I was like, I know for a dang fact, come to Scottsdale. I'm gonna spend way more than that on this dog. Plus, I just hated dropping him off. Like, he hate. He hates going to the groomers. And so I was like, okay, how can I save this money? I. I don't want to be spending this money right now. And so I. I got on YouTube and I learned the. The basics of how to, like, how to groom a dog. I bought a pair of 25 clippers off Amazon. And that was over two years ago. Rowan is just Living the posh life now because he has not had to step foot in a groomer in over two years. I am a. I mean, I like to toot my own horn. I think I'm pretty good at it. I'm not like the world's best groomer, but he's never matted. He always looks pretty even. But all that to say, like, the video was just talking about how I learned a new skill by being in debt and I was still able to pay off like $40,000 of debt. And so people just went bananas. I think this video, it might have 6 million views now. And it was just thousands and thousands of comments of people that were in debt. And I don't think I realized at the time, like, debt is such a normal thing in our soc. Kind of goes back to the first point we were talking about. I was like, why have I been beating myself up this whole time, like, shaming myself for being in debt when it just happens, like, there's no point of being in debt. You learned from it, like, like we've been talking about. But also now I have a new skill. One, I'm a way better cook than I was before. Two, now I know how to groom my dog and what a gift that is. I don't have to worry about dropping them off all the things. So, yeah, that was it.

Are you taking on new dog grooming clients? Because my doodle does go to the groomer and also gets very ma because I suck at grooming him. So let me know. Are you taking on more? Because I could give you a Leroy for a little bit.

Unfortunately, out of all the businesses I've started and want to start, dog grooming business is not I. Rohan just stands there. He is like, I hope you can hear me saying this. He's the best dog. Like that. He's an angel. But he just stands there right out the. Chase him down, stay like nothing. He just stands there. I groom him. And so I feel like if I opened up a dog grooming business, I would get like, a hellion dog and then it would just be game over.

So, you guys, the irony behind all of this is that right before we started recording this episode, Kezia was yelling at her dog, and now she's like, he's the best thing ever. And I'm like, you were just literally, like, yelling at him, telling him to get the heck out of here.

Listen, okay? He's a doodle. You have to. They. They need stern talking. You have one.

I know. Yeah, I kicked mine out. Cleo, he can't hang out in here when I record. He gets too squirrely. I love that though. So, yeah, dog grooming, Little things they do, they add up so much. I think that's so just an interesting way to think about, like, how can we spend less money in ways. I just think also it's like when we talk about money, it's just a tool, right? And so you leverage that tool to get yourself out of a situation that you didn't want to be in anymore. And it's just like, why again, why is that looked at as a bad thing? Right? I also think about there's this meme. Have you seen this meme? Where it's like, what is what? I feel like I'm gonna butcher it. But like, what's cool when you're rich and shitty when you're poor or something like that. And it was is. It's like speaking two languages, day drinking. Like when you're rich, like, yeah, you speak. It sounds like this thing. Debt is one of those things where like when you are on the wealth building side, people leverage debt all the freaking time. And then when you're on. On not the wealth building side, right? And I'm thinking it through the lens of like rich dad, poor dad. I know that you read that book recently too, but it's like when we're on, I'm saying poor with quotes around it because I really like the way to explain it. But that's just the best way I can think about it. Like when you're on that side, it's like debt is this bad thing. And so sometimes bad debt can still be leveraged in a good way. Now, sometimes it can't. Sometimes we just have spending problems. Sometimes we just are letting instant gratification rule our lives. Sometimes we just don't have a grasp on how money works and what we want out of this life. And I think that the more you get clear on that, the easier it gets to direct your money. Because money is energy and money is the tool that you like. I feel like I want people to picture money as like the hammer of like your life. Like it's a tool in your tool belt to build the life that you want. And so like, are you building in the right direction or are you just spending aimlessly? Because maybe you don't have a super clear vision of the life that you want or you do, and it's just kind of like these habitual things that really creep up. I think, you know, emotions are something that really run the show when it comes to money. And so it's just such an important reminder to, I don't know, like, get in control of that and to really do a lot of self reflection. I'm sure you're going to say the same thing, but I also feel like that this. This money, like, learning how to control your money and have a better relationship with it and get out of debt and all of that, like, it's such a personal development journey.

No, it is. Well, one other thing I wanted to note too, because, like, this kind of made me think while you were talking, like, the money that I was able to save grooming Rowan, like, if I would have just been like, well, no, like, it's too hard. Like, I can't figure it out or, no, like, I'm just. I'm just going to spend the money. It's fine. The money I saved doing that bought me a plane to Scotland. Bought me a. Bought me a plane. A whole.

A whole plane. You haven't invited me on the plane yet. I guess we're not there in our friendship.

Whole plane to Scotland, Whole plane ticket to Scotland. Like, me and my parents went to Scotland in April. Yeah, April. The money that I saved not having to have him groomed, that money was put on a plane ticket. When you think about it in that way of, like, okay, maybe the doordash, like, oh, it's only $20. $20 adds up. So if you could think about it, like, the bigger things that you want to experience, like, if you can sacrifice a little bit for a little while, imagine the life you can live once that sacrifice is over. Because that it will. It will come to an end. Like, you're not going to be sacrificing forever, but it's that instant gratification piece of. People want instant gratification. I deserve this. Like, I've been working so hard. I deserve, like, I have friends and family members that have said that. And I'm like, you don't deserve nothing because you can't get yourself out of debt. So maybe you should stop.

But because, yeah, you're in debt. You don't deserve nothing. I don't think that was her message in that statement, but I hear you. You've got to be in control of it because, yeah, I mean, instant gratification. You and I joke all the time just about how TikTok and Instagram and being on social media just is, like, slowly ruining our lives and rotting our brains. Right? And obviously we have to be on there for our businesses, but we both. We have been three weeks into no socials on Sundays. Both of us have been holding each other accountable and that's been really fun. And I've just seen like such a positive impact on my own mental health and not needing this app, not needing social medias and just like touching grass and like living life a little bit more and just. Yeah, so much to say there. But I think learning to fall in love with delayed gratification is one of the best things that you could do for your entire life. Hands down.

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And just knowing that, like we talked about already, it's just part of the process. I feel like I need to say, like, I'm in no way telling people that you don't deserve, like, so let's run that back a second. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying, like, it's just teaching yourself smart spending habits and so, you know, a hundred percent honoring that. Okay, if I can do this for a little bit now, if I can wait just a little bit. The rewards of waiting are far greater than getting that instant hit of dopamine. And trust me, this is something that I, I have to battle with on the daily. Because our brains, especially growing up with social media and with iPhones, we are conditioned at this point to want that instant gratification. And I can honestly, I don't know if you can do this, but like, sometimes I feel like at the end of the day, I'm kind of moody because I'm so depleted of dopamine. I'm like, why am I so moody right now? But it's because I need a re. I need time away from my phone, away from this, like, instant gratification, instant likes, instant everything that my brain has to reset and basically recoup its dopamine because I've been depleting it all day.

And it's like, it's the same thing.

With, with spending and, you know, all these kind of habits. It's like, okay, like, what purpose is this serving closer to my goals? How was my mindset around, you know, everything? And what are you telling myself about the situation I'm in?

And I think our generation just has such a unique, like having social media, having Amazon prime and Uber Eats and all these things that are just like, you know, like I just had a package delivered and I ordered it yesterday. Like, it just, it gets, it's here so fast sometimes it's like same day delivery. It's crazy how fast we this stuff. And so our brain does. Our brains have gotten like Short circuited almost. It's rewired to just crave this instant gratification. And that's why I think in today's age, if you can find ways to lean into delayed gratification, like that's just such a hack that most people don't spend enough energy prioritizing. And from a finance perspective, like getting out of debt, I think, you know, a unique approach I have to helping people get out of debt is actually incorporating all of the things that you love on the journey, right. I think debt getting out of it, it can be such a shame based conversation of just like cut out everything that you love and stop spending money on it. Like that's what's got you into this situation. Breaking up your debt payoff journey into milestones and rewarding yourself along the way is a, is a way to utilize neuroscience in your personal finance plan. And when we can understand, right. I think this is what's lacking a lot from the conversation of money is how much of a psychological thing it is, right. 90% of the decisions that we make with our finances are rooted in emotion. And so we've gotta be able to understand human psychology works if we actually want to learn to master our money, if we want to learn how our psyche works. In order to master your own money, what I always recommend, right, is, is build that debt payoff plan, break it into milestones and choose these things that you love to spend money on and utilize that as a reward system as you get closer to your goals. I think that that is such a better way to approach it where you are essentially gamifying the get out of debt journey, right? And you're utilizing the ability to now rewire your brain to love delayed gratification. And also what we know about humans love goal setting and working towards something. Right. Like if we look at the basis of happiness, a huge thing of happiness is like being challenged, having a goal to work towards, and proving to ourselves that we can actually accomplish these things that we set out to accomplish. And so that is just such a better approach, I think, to getting out of debt is just being able to reward yourself along the way for the hard work of hitting these different milestones and just incorporating the things you love instead of cutting everything out.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I was on your, I was on your live yesterday, you know, kind of going through like a couple of the points that you're going to be teaching in your, in your course. I was just like, dang, I wish I had had this when I was going through debt because you know, it, it is that like sometimes it's like an all or nothing mentality. And we were talking about this yesterday when I was yelling at you about tick tock. You're like, I'm gonna post every single day. And I'm like, no, well let's do like two or three days a week and build from there. And so I love that you take the same approach to paying off debt because I was just so hard on myself, like both times that I, that I went through that. I'm just like every single doll, extra dollar goes towards paying off debt. And you know, like, don't spend money on anything. And I wish that I had just enjoyed life a little bit more during that time. I mean, yes, I got through it, you know, in the timeline I wanted, but at the same time, like life is just meant to be lived, lived. And I'm like, I guess everything we're talking about just live.

You know what, just actually throw that all out the window. Just go live your life, sister. You're gonna be fine.

Open up another credit card. It's fine.

No.

But just, you know, sometimes the reward is like you said yesterday, it's like a, a cup of coffee or like a latte at your favorite coffee shop. Like get yourself the croissant too, girl. You know, buy like go to home goods and get a candle for 10 bucks. That thing will smell amazing. It's not like you need a Gucci purse or a trip to Italy. Like we'll do that when we pay off everything, but like these little reward systems along the way. Instead of just like driving it home like you, I'm gonna post every TikTok, like, yeah, small bite sized goals.

Small bite sized goals and rewarding yourself with your favorite things. I think what that also allows you to do is to actually figure out what you love. Like we live in such a consumeristic world where, I mean, God, it's just out of control now. Like the amount of money that companies spend on marketing to control and influence your buying behaviors is terrifying. Like absolutely terrifying. And it, and I don't know about you, but like, I would rather control my own buying behavior. So I think when you can slow down a little bit and really start to have these questions about like, well, what would even excite me on this like journey that I'm on to get out of debt and how would I reward myself? You realize that like you just love a good smelling ass candle from Target and like that actually brings you a lot of joy. Like I want my house to smell like Pumpkins during fall, you know, and then, and then you can be like, oh, this little ten candle actually just brought me so much joy versus just like more, more, more, more, more, more, more.

Yep, yep. It really is like, I mean, a ten dollar candle from Target. Sign me up. I think I bought one two weeks ago. I was like, this is the best, best swipe up my car that I've done in a long time. It's really the simple things, you know, at the end of the day.

So such a slut for a good smelling candle. Let me be real. I love it.

But they, they, they know where I'm at. They're like this, this girl likes amber, this girl likes mahogany. Put it out.

She's got her sun style. Then people. She smelled a lot of candles in her day. I love that. I wanna, I wanna talk about. Was there a moment where you were like a defining moment almost of just, all right, I'm in it. I'm in my debt payoff era. Like, I'm done letting this control me and I'm going to get serious. Like, was there a experience, a mindset, shift or anything for you that was just like, all right, this is it, or you just kind of sick your own shit? I don't know. I want to hear from you, like, what was, what was it for you? The catalyst moment of like, okay, I'm gonna get serious about this.

Well, I feel like they don't talk about first off, off paying out of debt and then paying off debt when you're in school. And so coming out of college, getting married to someone who also had debt. Like, I was introduced to Dave Ramsey and this idea of like, living in debt actually isn't the way to go. Which is kind of crazy now that I think about it, because my grandparents, they're like, they're very much on the side of like, they pay everything in cash. Like, everything. They don't have a mortgage, they don't have car payments, they don't have nothing. And so, but like, you hear that and you're like, that's nice, but I don't even know how to get there. And so I think like being introduced to like to the, to the debt free concept and the debt free payoff concept, I was like, okay, so there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And you don't just like, once you're in it, you know, there is no plan. And so it was, it was right after I'd gotten married that I was just like, I don't want to live like this Like, I want to be able to spend all of my money how I want, and I don't want to keep paying, paying a bunch of interest that is just accruing. And so I don't know, it was just a decision. Like, I just got to a point where I was like, this is not the way I'm going to live. I want to keep all the money that I'm making, not give it to anybody else. And I was like, I kind of just told my ex husband at the time. I was like, this is what we're doing, so hope you're on board. And it was just kind of that. And then the second time, after going through my divorce, I kind of already knew what to do. And so it was just a point of like sitting down, looking at your debt in the face. Like, that's the thing. I did this for the longest time. I was like, if I don't look at it, it's not looking at me and it doesn't exist. But like, look at your debt. Write it all out. Like, get a plan in place. Madison's gonna help you do that. Stare at it in the eyeballs and be like, this is how I'm gonna get rid of you. Then you join Madison's course and you get out of debt and you have a plan. But it really just comes to a point where you're just like, I'm deciding today, like, this is my plan to get out of debt. I didn't mean, I didn't have like a plan. Like, you're gonna give people. I was just willy nilly in it and it worked out, out. But this is why I don't teach this and you do. Yeah, it's. It really is just making a decision and just accepting the fact that you are in debt and it's okay.

Yeah, Yeah. I swear, you guys, I did not bring her honor to just pimp this program out. I just wanted to hear other chats, but thanks for pimping us out. And yeah, come join us if you want the plan. What I, what I want to ask you about, because this was unique to you, right? Of like, okay, now you're in a relationship with somebody that also has debt. What was that conversation like? Of like, are you in this? Obviously, you joked, you just said, hey, we're, we're gonna do this now. But I know this is really common for a lot of people getting on board from a finance perspective with a partner, if they have the same views, if they care about it in the same light as you, like, were you Driving the horse, Driving the horse, riding the horse. I don't. Steering, whatever. Like, were you the lead person on that? And like, was there anything of, from a conversation perspective that you needed to have with your partner at that time to be, all right, we're doing this, you know? Cause I, I feel like this is a really tough conversation. I have people, clients all the time, who are like, they're, they really want to prioritize getting out of debt and their husband could just like, absolutely care less. And so it makes it really hard to be unified in that. So I'm just curious what your experience was.

Yeah, well, I mean, I remember the exact conversation. He was very much against it, cuz he was just like, it doesn't matter, I don't have enough. I don't have any money to put towards the debt, whatever. And I was like, okay, let's look at it. It, let's look at the numbers. And so what I did is I went through all of our bills, like combined, and then how much we were bringing in and how much was left over. And I was like, first off, this is how much that we could be spending on whatever we wanted to and not paying off student loans, car payments, credit cards, whatever. And then this is how much you actually have left over at the end of every month that you could put $50 towards the lowest amount or the lowest loan you have.

Have.

And I think it was kind of like a light bulb moment for him because looking at like, if you put all of your debt. What's the word I'm looking for, like all your payments every single month, like car payment cards, student loans, what if you add all that up and then you look at how much longer it's going to take you to pay that off, it kind of in the butt because you're like, dang, for the next three years, I'm losing out. I think we. It was almost $2,000 a month that we were putting towards debt. This was back in 2022, so that was four years ago. And I was like, do you know what we could do with $2,000 extra a month? That's $24,000 a year that we could be putting towards a down payment on a house or spending multiple, like going on multiple trips across the, across the ocean, like all these things that we could be doing with this. And so it really put into perspective for him how much money, money we were flushing down the drain by not staying on top of it. And then how much money he actually had left over after bills that he could Put towards this. So it was really just that perspective. But being able to write out all the numbers and, like, have someone sit down there with you, like, that was. That was the game changer.

Oh, I love that you said that. Okay, so if anyone's like, I'm on board, but my partner doesn't seem to be interested in taking that seriously. Paint the picture. Figure out what that money is and. And know what kind of life you're again, what kind of life are you trying to. What kind of experiences do you want to have and what kind of memories do you want to make? And how is getting out of debt going to directly impact you? Getting to have those experiences? And being able to paint that picture is a motivator. 100%. I love that. Oh, yeah, I love that so much.

The money that we. The money that we ended up having left over, like, it had always been a dream of mine. He knew this to go to Santorini, Greece. And I was like, we're booking a trip to Santorini. Like, once we're debt free. We booked the trip to Santorini. I freaking is like, I would move there tomorrow if I could. But all that was possible because of all the extra money that we had a month not having to pay debt collectors. So it for anybody, like that trip that you want to take or that car, whatever, like, you can buy these things in cash. Like, and we paid for that trip in cash. Like, there was. There was no credit card. There was nothing. It was just straight cash. Had no debt from it. Like on the trip, paid cash for everything. And it was just the most, most freeing feeling of being like, holy crap. Like, there's no balance on anything. There's no interest being accrued. Like, we're just spending, spending money that we have. And that wouldn't have been possible if we hadn't just stared it in the face and gotten real with it.

I talk about this, like, how nice is it to go on a vacation that's not debt fueled, right? Like, I have been on trips and vacations that are funded by credit cards and maxed out credit cards behind the scenes and then been on trips where it's just paid for, right? It's. It's such a different feeling. You're not, like, stressed as much about it.

You're not.

You're not like, ugh, should I be on this trip? Should I really be paying money for this? Now you're out and the girls want to, like, go do something else or whoever you're on vacation with and you're kind of Just like cringily swiping the card and adding to the pile versus like being out of debt, having a plan for it. Just there's just like a level of freedom and like weight off your chest. So, yeah, vacations just feel a little bit lighter for me. I don't know how you feel about that.

That A hundred percent. Oh my gosh. Like it's night and day for me. Cause it's just like I don't even wanna swipe this card. I don't feel I can actually like experience this to the max. Because I'm going into the hole trying to find happiness.

Going into the hole trying to find happiness. Yeah, that's a good catalyst moment. I think for me it was. I had always knew I wanted to get outta debt. I actually had this like shame for so long. The story that I told myself that nobody was gonna wanna marry me if I had debt. I was so embarrassed and thought that it was such a uni unique thing. Again. I was proud of myself because I put myself through college, I did all of these things and at the same time it was who's gonna want me if I have debt? Was a story that I told myself for a really long time. And so I put this objective to get out of debt before I got married. Because I was like, I won't let a man take on my debt. Like that was just. I don't know where that originated from. So that feeling was always there of wanting to get out of it. And yet still I bought a brand new car directly out of college and I continued to rack up my credit card payment. You know what I mean? Mean. And so I was definitely intentional about trying to get out of it. But I think the catalyst of being like, no, I'm ready to pay this off for me was actually reading Rich Dad, Poor Dad. And it was super eye opening to me how much my mindset around money was rooted in. Again, quote, quotes here, but like poor man thinking and how rich people actually leverage money in such a different way. And being able to, to see the impact of compound interest either working for you or against you. And when you have especially high interest credit card debt, the way that, that just drags you back and kind of keeps you in this current chapter. And then the way that compound interest works for you, it actually builds wealth. And I think one of the biggest light bulb moments on my journey was recognizing that retirement wasn't just this age that you reached. And then all of a sudden you get to stop working. You reach that age and you retire because you've had enough money invested that you can actually fund your life. And then that, that can happen at any age. It doesn't have to be 65. You actually can control that by having an investment portfolio that can fund your life. And when I started to understand that a fire was lit under my ass where I was like, I'm getting out of debt and then I'm. And then I'm just need to fully be in my wealth building era. So it was just, for me, it was like really starting to understand how money worked and how I could be making it work harder for me and for my dream dreams and how my current spending and my current approach and my current mindset around money was kind of keeping me in this like poor man's mentality. And I knew that's not who I wanted to be and that's not the life that I wanted to live forever. Like, I wanted to break that cycle. And so that was a very eye opening. So again, for me, it was like looking at math, looking at the numbers, but kind of in a different way of like, well, what could happen if I had this compound interest on my side, you know?

Yeah, yeah. So many conversations like this. I wish, I wish that we were taught this stuff in school because it would have changed. It would have changed the game, you know, for me, for. I know a lot of people.

So now you can learn it in my school. Dead Ditcher Academy.

Another plug. I'm happy to.

All right, if you could go back and tell that version of yourself one thing, what would it be?

It all works out. Which I know, like, you could probably find that on a hobby lobby sign. It all works out. It's so cliche, but it's so freaking true. Don't spend your life stressing about, like, how am I gonna do it, I only have 10 extra a month. Or, you know, shaming yourself. Like, all of these things are just added stress onto your life.

Life.

First off, join Madison's program. Get up.

This has become such a. Such a pitch.

She's actually paying me, guys. I didn't want to say that on a scale. She's not paying me whatsoever. I just know the power of this. And we've been talking about this for months. And so I'm just so excited that you're giving women the tools because having that video go viral back in December, I was like, wow, this is actually something that I could have help, obviously, thousands of people with. It's not my brand. I'm a business coach. I'm not a not A money, money coach like you are. And so I was like, madison, like, people need this. And so I, I plugged this so much because I am so honestly, genuinely passionate about this. And Madison has the tools to help you get to a better place, but just having a plan, having someone that supports you, being around a group of women that are all on the same journey, that are having the same struggles as either, like we're all shaming ourself and we're all having these thoughts like, we're not. No one's better than anybo. But putting yourself in rooms that you have all this support and this collaboration and this community to lean on, this is what's going to be a catalyst to get you out of this place that you're in into a much more rich and fulfilled life. So, yes, I joke plugging this a lot, but truly I wish I'd had something like this when I was going through my journey. I didn't. I did this all by myself and I was, you know, trying to drag someone else along with me, me. And I, I understand, I get it's hard. So put yourself in this room, understand the power of it and understand the power of just taking back your own life. You don't have to continue living like this, but it truly does all work out. All that to say, but start with the plan. Madison's got your plan.

I love it. I think that's incredible. And I think that you hit on something of. Yeah. Just to like wrap it up and stop selling you guys on why you need to be in this room. But if, if I could go back to that, that chapter for me and not have it feels like such a lonely journey. Right. And I think that's why I wanted and needed to create this in a group environment, was so that you could see and talk to other women that are going through exactly what you're going through and make the burden less lonely and less shameful. Again, just recognize exactly like what we said is, it's just a chapter and you're just learning new skills and you're learning about yourself. And when you can do it through that lesson, friends, that is going to be game changer. But getting to be around people that are like minded, that are like, no, I'm going to get out of this debt and then I'm going to go build wealth and then I'm going to go change my whole damn life and it's going to be a catalyst to all of that. I just think is so cool. And so I'm just so excited for all the women that get to be a part of that. Because again, I just know what the late night googling, banging my head against the wall, thinking that I was the only person feeling these feelings, thinking I was the only person that was carrying this weight. Weight. When in reality, that was just the complete opposite. And there was probably so many women around me that if I would have just spoke up at that time would have been like, oh, my God, thank you for saying that and thank you for making this not feel so heavy. Like, I just. Now. Now I'm like, now I kind of get to go back and do that and just, yeah, let you know it's going to be okay. So, yeah, that's all I got. Thank you so much for being here and having this conversation of just being very transparent around a topic that I know is really hard for a lot of people to talk about. And as we've joked throughout this whole episode, obviously, you guys, my program, debt, your academy is open for enrollment up until October 15th of 2025. Just in case you're really listening to this in the future. But, yeah, I'd love to have you in there if it's something where you're like, you know, I'm serious to get out of this, and I want maybe like, a new, fresh perspective on how to look at debt and how to get out of it and not make this journey feel so lonely. I would love to be a part of that journey with you and I'd love to help make. Make this just a little bit more enjoyable and have fun as you're building that plan. So definitely click the link in the show notes if this is something that's speaking to you. And hop in that ditcher academy. Shoot me a DM if you have any questions. But, Kazia, thank you so much for being here and being a part of the conversation today. If you guys resonated with any of this, make sure you reach out to Kazia. She is an incredible business coach, she is a community builder, and she is definitely someone that has. Has positively impacted my life. And I know that if you get an opportunity to be in her world, she will positively impact yours as well. So shoot her a dm. We'll link all her stuff in the show notes. But, Kazia, thank you so much for being here today.

Oh, this has been wonderful. Thanks, Madison.