Youtube Money Expert Rose Han on the Mindset, Mistakes, and Moves That Made Her a Millionaire

Foreign. This is Busy Getting Better, the podcast for women who are committed to prioritizing their own personal growth. I'm your host, Madison J. A mindset and money coach, a first generation wealth builder and a woman on a mission to help you master your finances and live your best life. Money is not all we are covering though, because in order to live your best life, you have to become your best self. So we are diving deep into all things personal development and bringing you the mindset that shifts money, tips and inspiration. You need to go out there, be bold, and build the life you can't stop daydreaming about. It's time to get busy, babe. Busy getting better. Today, I am so excited to introduce you to a woman who has completely transformed not only her finances, but the way millions of people think about money. Rose Han is an internationally renowned money expert, author, YouTuber and educator who went from $100,000 in debt to becoming a self made millionaire. And now she's on a mission to help others do the same. Her YouTube channel and courses have empowered women all over the world to pay off debt, start investing, and build lasting wealth. And she's been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Business Insider, and cnbc. And if that wasn't impressive enough, her new book, Add a Zero, coming out on September 2, is already sitting alongside personal finance legends like Dave Ramsey on the top bestsellers list. I had the pleasure of meeting Rose a few months ago at an event we were both speaking at. We instantly connected and I just knew I needed to have her on the podcast. So, Rose, welcome to Busy Getting Better.

Gosh, I'm so happy that we became friends at that event. And now I'm on your podcast. Excited to be here.

So excited. I feel like women in the finance space, like, we just, you've got to connect, we've got to collaborate because there's just not enough of us. And also finding another woman that just like, wants to yap about, like, money and wealth building and finances. It's like most people's eyes glaze over a little bit, so it's always fun. I feel like we just connected so quick and had so many similarities. And you've been in this space for such a long time. It was really a great opportunity to meet you. And I'm just, I'm so excited you're here and we get to talk about all the fun money things.

Yeah, yeah. And also what I appreciated about meeting you is we connected on other things. It was, it was fun. It wasn't just like this stale networking conversation. That's like what I'm excited about these days is when work also feels fun and you're working with people that you enjoy and sort of the lines between fun, work, play, like it all just blends together.

Yeah, I know. One thing we talked about was like reading fun fantasy books and I convinced you to pick up a court of thorns and roses, which you were telling me you just got started on. So love little fantasy romance book. I love. I've always been such a nerd about fantasy worlds because it's like I just want to escape a little bit and get out there. So it's always a fun contrast to like the self development personal finance related books. So how are you liking it so far? You're just, you just kicked it off. But are you enjoying it?

Yes, I love it.

It's.

I think it's the first fantasy book I've picked up since Harry Potter when I was little. But yeah, I love how it has its own language and all these different names of species and magic tricks that you have to like understand. It's really cool. It's a really good escape. We can't, we can't always be all business thinking about money and work and what we need to accomplish. We do need to de stress and have something fun. Like that's actually the juice. That's what actually makes us motivated to go and do those money things and work things.

Right? A hundred percent. I think that's something that we really connected on too is just this idea of not money for money's sake, but like money for the sake of being able to live your life authentically and be able to do fun things and have fun hobbies. And I know that that's something that you talk about. Right before we started, you were talking about, you're obviously in the middle of a book launch right now. Your very first book that you, you've written and put out there. I'm so excited to read it and dive into more on that. But you were just in Europe for three weeks dancing your little booty off at a festival, like having fun, going around into all these different countries in the midst of something that's so stressful. And I think you were just talking about finding that balance and not necessarily like being a slave to the work or sacrificing your own personal joy, you know? So I'm so curious, like, how did you, how did you balance that? How did you. How are you navigating like having fun and introducing that into your work and starting to find that balance of not giving into hustle culture and not letting money necessarily be the, like, main driver behind everything, but more so a tool to be able to live life. I just would love to hear your philosophy on that.

Yeah. And hey, it's not perfect. I think on this trip I. I was reminded again the importance of having fun. And because now that, now that I came back, I have so much more fuel to do, I need to do for this book launch and get the book out into the world, do all the work and achievement things. And it was a good reminder because looking back, since my whole sort of financial journey, life, career, adulting journey started at 18, there were several episodes where I lost track of that and got really into the hustle, hustle mode. Like, I must achieve, I must get out of debt. I must, you know, save up my first hundred thousand dollars, must start my business. You know, all these kind of hustle goals. Looking back, like at the whole timeline, and I'm going to totally give away my age here. I'm 18 years ago, so I'm 36 now. But yeah, looking back at basically those last two decades, the moments when I was really connected to having fun, what, what made my life worth living. Like, my hobbies, my passions, that actually is what drove all the results. And then so, yeah, like kind of retracing my timeline a bit and to share the origin of my whole money journey. At 18, I knew I had to go to college. I did all the hustling, study hard, got into NYU and enrolled, but deferred my admission for a year because again, there was that fun side that wanted to go travel and just explore the world and be a little bit of a rebel against my very strict Korean American parents. So I went on this gap year to backpack around Europe, Asia, Africa. Super adventurous year. And then, then I came back to sort of real life college, enrolled then got into this whole, like, career mode of I'm going to work on Wall street and I need to graduate top of my class. I did that and ended up with six figures of student loan debt. That's sort of another part of the story. And then I got into this hustle culture and then realized I didn't want to continue in that Wall street track. I think I was around 25 and I had a quarter life crisis when I realized I don't enjoy this. I am like, too. I feel like I'm too cool to be sitting behind six computer screens under fluorescent lighting all day long and be around people who say, like, thank God it's Friday and man, it's Mondays. You know, so I quit, I got my bonus, had some little cushion for a fun employment period. And then I sort of went back to the whole like fun, real me and had this exploration period where I really was just having fun. Opposite of hustle culture. Doing things because it was fun, not because it would get me somewhere or earn me a certain amount of money. So I did like pole dance. I got a Reiki certification. I just did a lot of fun things, a lot of random fun things. And that was also around the time when I started really paying attention to my finances because I was so tuned into what I loved. What, like, tuned into my inner world rather than what the outside world tells me I need to achieve and accomplish. That actually in a lot of ways led to me realizing that I wanted to start a YouTube channel and just share this message of financial empowerment in a bigger way because I was tapped into my own passion, you know, and so I started my YouTube channel. And that was all driven by passion because, yeah, for the first year, I was posting every single week for a year and not getting pretty much any views. So, yeah, you know, it wasn't because I'm trying to achieve and accomplish, it's because I'm passionate. I really enjoyed making, enjoy making videos and connecting with people through the screen in that, like, and so I did that. But then my channel started growing and then all the business considerations started coming in and I hit six figures. I hit my first seven figures and all these things. And then I did get into back into hustle culture. You know, like, as a business owner, I'm sure you can understand, yeah, all the strategies, hire growth. And then I lost track of that. There's been a couple ups and downs, like little ins and outs in along that way. But yeah, I feel like I just needed that reminder. And this summer was another one.

I love that. It's so interesting how similar our stories are. I feel like probably a lot of people relate to this, but like that timeframe of your life, right, you did everything you thought you should do. You go to school, you get the degree, you take out the loans, you get the corporate job, you hustle, you work hard, you hit your milestones. And all of a sudden I looked up and I was like, wait, I've achieved all the success, right? I've hit these six figure milestones. I'm making the money. Why doesn't it like feel the way that I thought it was going to feel? I just did what I thought I should do and now I'm sitting here making more money. Than ever still. You know, for me, I was in $70,000 worth of debt. So a similar overwhelming, heavy amount. Right. I was like, how am I making more money and also hustling and working so, so hard and still buried in debt. I'm not happy here. Like, what's next? And then, you know what I just learned about. Have you ever heard of Saturn Return?

Yeah. Is that what's happening right now?

Saturn Return, I guess is something that happens around 27 or so of something about the planetary system of Saturn is now back where it was when you were born. And it kind of goes through this rotation. I'm just learning about it. But I heard it and I was like, oh my God. That's what I went through. A literal mental breakdown of what am I doing with my life? Yes. Around that age. So I quit at. How old was I? I was 28. 28? Yeah, I was 28 when I quit. And then same thing, you know, I was I 28. I don't know, 28 when I had the mental breakdown. I left a little over a year ago. So, yeah, somewhere in. I just turned 30. And yeah, similar how we have that thing. And then what you've said is so important of like bringing joy back into it. I feel like from like a financial energetic perspective, that's a conversation that we have all the time of doing something for fun and just like being in this vibration and this frequency of. Of joy and doing what your passions are and like following your intuition and all of that. I just love how many more conversations and people are talking about this because traditionally when we think about finances, it really is like, work hard, do the right thing, put the money into the places. But like, when you peel it back a bit more, it's really. It's really deeper than that. And there's so much more from like a. A joy perspective. I just love that you started something from the passion per perspective and then monetized it. I think now, like, the industry has changed so much. Like, it's blown up this creator space, this coaching space, this influencer space. And it's like, I think a lot of people get into it for the finance component. And even what you mentioned about, you know, leaving the corporate and then getting into the business and then catching yourself back in hustle culture. I feel like I just kind of had that epiphany too, that I left my corporate job because I didn't want to be doing the whole Sunday scaries. The like, thank God it's Friday thing. I totally resonate with that and then I get into this and I love what I'm doing so much. And it does feel so aligned. And at the same time, I have ended up back in hustle culture. But it feels a little bit more like, justifiable because it's like me and it's my business and it's something that I am passionate about. But at the same time, I seriously just had this conversation last week, probably because I turned 30 and went through this, like, identity, like, ah, I can't believe I'm entering a new decade. But I was like, I need. What are my hobbies? Like, here I am again, like, doing this coaching and business stuff was the hobby when I was working full time. Now that this is the full time, like, how can I have more fun in my life? Like, what are my hobbies? How can I get back into these fantasy books? How can I go out and explore and like, do something that's not business related? Because I think that that is so important, especially when we're talking about money. But it's not something that people immediately connect with it. So I just love that that's such a big piece of what you talk about and you talk about too. About leaning into these hobbies and finding your passions is actually what shows you why wealth building and why managing your finances is so important. I just love the way you have talked about it because it is so true. Because it's not money for money. It's money so that you can live your life the way that you want to live it. And I think that sometimes that gets a little convoluted and lost in the conversation of personal finance.

Totally. Pursuing your hobbies will make you rich. You know, that's, that's. It sounds counterintuitive, but it reminds you what the money, it's so you can enjoy life and have fun. And then that's actually what gives you the juice and motivation to look at your finances and do some of the more. I guess I don't want to say hard, but some of the not so sexy stuff like budgeting and looking at your credit card statement, it's like if, if, if you associate those actions with, oh, I'm gonna not be able to spend anything because my budget's gonna tell me no and it's gonna mean deprivation and I won't be able to do fun things, then you're not gonna wanna do it. I don't want people to do things they don' trick is to rewire your association with those activities. So do your hobbies, have fun and then Experience how, like, the. The money discipline part allowed you to have that fun. Like, when I was at Tomorrowland during this summer Europe trip, I was like, dancing and just having the best time. And I really had this realization. I was like, oh, my God. Good on you, Rose, for all the structure and, you know, financial habits that you've created so that you could be here and have a fucking blast. Oh, yeah, I was. I was. I was having that realization because I remember all these little moments where I had a little extra money to have a good time. Like, we could. We were late to catch the shuttle bus, so I was like, no problem. Let's just get an Uber. No problem, no problem. Or the water fountain is super far away, but there's a bar and they're selling kind of a little bit overpriced water bottles. Rather than wasting 45 minutes walking all the way over there, I'm like, you know what? Let's just buy some water. It's right here so we can keep dancing and have more fun. It's just little things like that. And then I know when I'm coming back. After three weeks traveling, I'm not coming back to all these unpaid bills and credit card debt and financial stress. I paid for the whole trip in cash, like, months ahead on my bills. That's what allowed me to have that fund. It was, it was a really good reminder of that's what the structure is for, so that we can be free and enjoy. So, yeah, coming back, I'm like, yeah, this is. This is why I enjoy checking my finances every month, because I get excited about all the more fun it's going to allow me to have.

It's like that mindset shift of the discipline being, like you said, this restrictive thing versus the discipline is actually what gives you freedom. Because so often, right? Like, well, first off, I've been on vacations buried in credit card debt with maxed out credit cards, and I've been on vacations completely debt free. Very different energy, right? Like, one is escapism. Like, I'm going to run away from my problems. I'm going to go have fun, whatever. I'll swipe my credit cards, I'll worry about it when I get back. The other is, like you said, it's empowering. Like, oh, I did this shit for myself. Like, I'm here and I'm enjoying it. And there's no, like, lingering. Like, like, don't. I'm nervous. I mean, listen, sometimes, right? I went to Europe last summer and I was like, we're just Swiping the credit card for sure. Like, we stayed within our, our range of how much we wanted to spend. And I'm like, I wonder, I wonder what it's at. Like, there is that, but it's different when you're like, what is. Am I going to be able to pay this minimum? Like, what. It's just like, it's a different energy. So it is that discipline giving you the freedom and it's like empower. It's just empowering to be able to live your life in a place where you're like, I created these systems, I created the structure. I got financially disciplined. I shifted my mindset, like you said, rewiring the way that I think about money as a tool, as source to be able to go and live, live my life. I think that that's just, that's what, that's what needs to happen in this conversation of money. And the more people that can get to that point, it helps you get out of this fight or flight mode, out of the survival based mode with your finances where you're constantly just trying to get ahead. Because when you're buried in debt, it really does feel like, how am I going to get out? I'm on this, like, hamster wheel. Right. But when you, when you make these switches. Yeah, it's empowering, which is I think probably why we're both enjoy yapping about it and telling people about the benefits of it, because then it goes. And the reason I love that, love it so much is because, you know, it allows you to get to the point where you can explore your hobbies more and like, explore your purpose more and just live a more fulfilling life when you're not just stressed about, like, how am I going to pay this next bill and. Or I'm just utilizing whatever to like, escape from my problems.

Yeah, totally. You know, the whole, what that whole stereotype of money is a man's world. I really disagree with that. Because what could be more feminine than having. Yeah, the means to, to not be stressed and to feel nurtured and have more fun and to be able to spoil yourself, you know, and that's very feminine.

We are the treat yourself people. Like that is us. We are the treat yourselves. That's. That's what we need the money for. I love that. Okay, one thing that you talked about, and I actually got to hear you talk about this in your speech when we were in New York a couple months ago, but I'd love to break down your concept of the wealth container, right. Of being a big Container versus small container and what that means about your approach to finances. Can you talk us through that? Because I think it is. It's such a good explanation of these little mindset shifts that lead to a totally different financial reality.

Yeah, so there is this sort of metaphor that I created of the small container and big container. And the real question isn't how much money do you have in your bank account right now? But how much money are you ready to receive? And this applies regardless of if your bank account has zero or negative or lots of money in it. You can have a bigger. You can expand your container right now. You know, regardless of how your situation looks when you expand your container, then you will be ready to receive more. But if your container isn't big enough, then you'll only ever have the money that you currently have. And if you do receive more, it'll quickly get spent or just disappear. Something I'd love for everyone listening right now to to think about is are you actually ready to become a rich girl and receive more money? So I'm talking more energetically. Like if you have a great relationship with money, then more money will be very excited to come into your life because it feels that you're ready for it. Some pract examples of the difference between having a small money container versus a big money container is a small container is thinking about money stresses me out. Whenever you think about money, you're just stressed out. But having a big container is, hey, thinking about money is fun. You associate money with good things because if you have negative vibes towards something, it's not going to come towards you. You can think of it really practically. Like if you have a friend who thinking about her always stresses you out and you just, just don't like her or thinking about her, she's going to feel that energy from you and she's not going to call you and text you or want to hang out with you again. It's really simple, right? Or if you have a small container mindset every time you spend, you're like guilty and embarrassed and you're like feeling crappy about all the money that left your bank account. But big container thinking is you are focused on what you got in return for that money and how grateful you are for what that money got you. And because you spent intentionally the like, it's a choice, right? Sometimes we just have to spend money. Sometimes we have to. Well, not sometimes, but we all have to pay rent and groceries and utilities, so we might as well feel good about it. Like we have to spend that money. So instead of, you know, griping about, ugh, my rent is so high, I hate that I have to spend this every month. No, we can just choose to, to shift that and think, I'm so grateful that I have the money to have a secure and clean, safe home. It's, it's really easy shifts. And you can do that right now, regardless of what your financial situation looks like. Maybe another example is, ooh, like small container thinking would be if, if you made a hundred thousand dollars tomorrow, you were, you're. You'd be kind of scared, like, oh my God, I don't trust myself with it. I don't have any idea what I'd do with it. I'd probably just spend it all. So you could do kind of this, like, anxiety and lack of confidence. Whereas big container thinking is, I already know exactly where every dollar would go. It's going to go towards this, this, and this. I have a plan, you know.

Yeah.

And these are all things you can prepare your container to be bigger right now. And when you do that, that's actually what invites in more money. Because nature abhors a vacuum. I believe in universal energy, and money is really just a form of energy. It's gonna feel that, oh, this person is a good steward of money. When I bring more money this person's way, good things happen, good vibes get generated. Gratitude, love, all these amazing things. So let me like, give more money to this person. That's really how it works.

Yeah, I think that's such a good breakdown and example. And it just, just, I feel like it's this reminder of like, the best time to make a plan for your finances is before you have the money. And also by making the plan, you are calling it in. I think so often people wait until the next milestone. Like, once I do here, once I make this amount of money, once I get this next job raise, once I get whatever, then I will start thinking about investments. Then I will take my debt payoff plan seriously. But that's not what happens at all. Because you make the more money, but you're not the person who knows how to manage it. It. You actually should figure out how to manage the money that you have. Build the plan so that when more money does come into your world, you actually are able to, to your point, be a better steward of that money. Because what happens if you don't have the plan, you don't have the mindset shifts, you don't start to really embody this new version of yourself that can feel financially confident. Can put the systems in place, does know what to do with it when it comes into their world. You are inevitably going to give in to lifestyle creep. You are going to self sabotage. You are going to be like, I worked so hard to get here. I'm going to go treat myself in, in a self destructive way. Not in like I, you know, I rewarded myself. I was intentional about carving out this money so that I could spend it in this way. I, I was victim to that, right? I worked super hard, I started making six figures and then I was just, I was just spending more money. I was just like thinking that the more money was going to solve my problems. But really getting financially literate and shifting my mindset about how I viewed money and how I treated money is what shifted everything, right? Like that's what was able to help me get out of deb, actually start building wealth and working towards financial independence and financial freedom and falling in love with it. Because I was like, oh my God, there's such a different way to think and talk about money than what I have always thought about in my whole life, which was money is a survival mechanism. Money is a tool that allows me to be fed. And all this stuff. Like it was, it was this like needy exchange energy. Like you're saying like, oh, I need to do this, I need to do this. Versus the viewpoint of like, I get to live in this beautiful home, I have all this food that now nourishes my body. I get to go do the things that I love that light me up. I get to, to become a more authentic version of me because of money. So I absolutely love that. And I'm curious, is there any like major mindset shift or like one that comes up that you think that helped you become the big container version of yourself?

Ooh, that helped me become the big container version. Okay. I gotta be honest, it, I would say this whole big container, small container realization, it came to me later. I don't think it shifted. It was like a super gradual process, I would say. But the first sort of start to that was just the moment that I stopped sticking my head in the sand and just getting the courage to look at where I stood. That already is a little vote of confidence in myself telling my subconscious that, hey, you're able to handle this, you can look at what's going on, you don't have to hide. So it really starts with that. I think that that'll be a big thing for a lot of your listeners. And this is probably 99% of people we avoid what seems scary and painful, what's what seems overwhelming and finances are, if you've never handled them before, it does seem overwhelming. So way back in the beginning of my journey, it's funny, earlier you mentioned that you would put vacations on credit card debt. That's what I was doing. So I had student loans, credit card debt. And the moment I really started realizing that, that my life was not going in a good direction and that my finances were a disaster is when I took my first big sort of two week vacation as an adult, you know, in my career. And because I'd been living paycheck to paycheck and spending my six figure salary on I don't know what, shopping and tons of things, I didn't have money to go on this vacation. But I really wanted to go on vacation because I really needed vacation because I was working so hard. So I put it on my credit card and it was in Cancun, Mexico. I just booked some cheap retreat. Whatever made me feel like less guilty to put it on my credit card. I was like sitting on the beach and eating this crappy soggy guacamole and like not enjoying my vacation because I felt guilty. And that's when I started realizing, okay, like my life is really not what I imagined. And I felt very alone because I realized, well, no, and nobody's going to save me. Who's going to fix this for me? Nobody. Only me. My parents can't do it for me. It's not like they have a lot of money either. It would be great if I had some rich boyfriend, but I was like, I don't think that's the path either. I don't want to rely on that I'm going to have to do for myself. And so it was just like a series of gradual realizations like that where I realized, oh, nobody's coming. So it all culminated in a moment where I finally got the courage to look up my student loan debt, all the different providers that I owed money to, because at the time I was on this interest only payment and didn't really know how much the balance was still and was just avoiding it, hoping it would go away on its own. And yeah, the moment that I just logged into all of them and it took a ton of courage to do it. I like listed everything on a piece of paper, all my debts, who I owed it to, how much it was, and also all my little savings and what I had and saw exactly where I stood net worth wise. That was a real vote in confidence for myself. Like okay, now I'm not hiding. Now I know what I'm facing, so now I can do something about it. And yeah, like, I don't want to make it sound like you can just go from small container to big container thinking overnight. I think it's just more of these little votes of confidence in yourself, little choices that you make every time you interact with money, which is 20, at least 20 times a day. You know, just bring that awareness of what energy am I feeling right now as I think about money? Am I feeling overwhelmed or guilty or whatever, and try to shift that to something positive and empowering.

Yeah, I love that. I think what I also love just like resonating with your story and I think it's so important for people to hear is like, we've gotten here, right? You've gotten here not because you had all of the answers and everything was perfect and you, like, had all this backing of, like, how to be financially educated, and now you're sharing it with the world. World. It's through a lot of trial and error. It's through having the, the confidence to take the risk and then being able to trust yourself to navigate the problems that arise with that. Right. Like, this isn't necessarily easy work. Right. I know you've talked a lot about. I think I saw you post something about, like, your museum of financial failures, which I just really resonate with because it's like you and I both had, like, a terrible real estate example where it's like you lose a lot of money in that and, you know, you, you end up in debt. Like, there's, there's all these, like, quote unquote mistakes or like, things that are like, I don't know, challenging to get through. And it's like, that's how you learn. And it's like, it shouldn't necessarily be this, I'm bad with money, or I screwed up. Ending up in these scenarios where you have challenges or setbacks is how you learn, how you grow and being able to apply that information and continue to move forward, that's what's going to change your financial reality. Not just hitting up, up a miles or hitting up a roadblock and then being like, well, this, this sucks. See, I can never get ahead. Which I think what you've talked a lot about that I think is really common in life, but especially with money, is almost this, like, victim mentality of like, nobody taught me how to do this. I don't have the answer. I didn't come from this background. And it's like, same sister but, like, you gotta figure it out. Otherwise you're just gonna die with that same money story. And that's a. That's sad to me. Like, it's not about where you came from. It's about where you're going and who you are today and who you're trying to become to change those factors. And so I think that that's just really important for people to hear. It' like, this is perfect journey. It's like, no, you've been able to build this financial confidence in this financial foundation because of the setbacks, because of the lessons you got to learn about money and about yourself and about how you wanted to live your life. And so, yeah, if you're listening and you're like, I have all these setbacks, it's like, use them. Use them to your advantage. I always say, like, even if you're, you know, racking up credit card debt and going on trips and financing a couch or something, like, that's a lesson in itself of, like, I don't like doing that. That doesn't feel good. How can we change the way that we're treating our money? And so, so, yeah, the financial setbacks can be a catalyst for your financial wins, essentially.

Totally.

Yeah.

Actually, I remember a moment I was. I read my journal a lot because I've journaled since I was. Since 2007. And sometimes I read back just to revisit, like, pivotal moments in my life. And I remember a journal entry where I wrote, I have a hundred thousand in debt, and this is a large amount. And I'm very, like, you know, intimidated, but I will get out of debt. I will use this as, as a, as the impetus for me to learn financial literacy and get really, really savvy with money, because I have to, because I have all this debt to pay off. I'm going to use this as sort of this catalyst to become even more savvy than I ever would have had to be if I never had that debt in the first place. And, yeah, in. In large part that's why I ended up writing a book about how to get out of debt and become financially free. I also want to add, like, the learning never stops either. The failures never stop. You know, I probably never. I probably wouldn't end and accidentally back in six figures of debt again. But I've. I'm gonna make other mistakes because at every level, there's new sets of things to learn. So, like you mentioned our rental property discussion when, when I came into more money, then I started investing in bigger things and Then, because those are all new things, then you make mistakes, and then the mistakes are bigger because you're dealing with more numbers. You know, I shared my real estate story about the car crashing into my house, and my insurance coverage wasn't great, so I had to pay six figures out of pocke repairs. And you just have to keep just being confident, maintaining your confidence, not seeing those as reasons why you suck, but just opportunities to get better, like you mentioned.

Yeah, a hundred percent. Okay, let's talk about your book. I want to get into all of the tea. It's called At a Zero. First Things first. What is At a Zero? Like, how did you get to this title? What does At a Zero mean to you? What was like, the whole idea and concept behind.

Yep. So when I looked back at my whole journey, I realized, even though going from, you know, minus 100,000 to over a million is a huge jump, but I looked back and realized there were. There were little steps I took along the way, and there really is a system. Even though I've read tons of books, I read every personal finance book out there. I thought a lot of them while they had great ideas and theories, like Rich Dad, Poor dad, number one personal finance book of all time, learned some really great things. But a lot of times the things I learned were just really lofty ideas that weren't addressing exactly where I'm at in my phase. I'm in debt.

Debt.

And you're talking to me about leverage and other people's money, and I don't know what to do with that. So I wanted to make this playbook of that just goes step by step. Like, it's not going to teach you all these crazy things that don't apply to where you're at when you're in debt. You need to learn how to get to zero, how to just be aware of where your spending is going and why you're spending that money. Work on your mindset a little bit. And then once you got to zero and you've sort of mastered the basics of credit card debt and those kind of basics, then you can move on to getting your first 10,000. And that's mastering, optimizing your expenses, just cutting the bleeding. I don't. I'm not talking about deprivation. Just. Just doing simple things like negotiating some bills, revisiting your big three expenses, housing, transportation, and food, and learning basic budgeting. And then to get to a hundred thousand, that's when. That's when you can start looking at increasing your income. Because now you've plugged all the leaks. So when you make more money, it's actually going to stick with you and negotiating your pay and then also thinking tax savvy since taxes are going to be number one biggest expense in our lifetime. That gets you to a hundred thousand and then once you reach a hundred thousand, you can go to a million. And that's where you have to start really shifting, shifting your focus towards creating income in an exponential leveraged way, getting money to work for you and investing and thinking about starting businesses. So yeah, I wrote this book. I actually have a mock up here. I haven't gotten the actual book yet, so this is a photo shoot. But yeah, I wrote this as the step by step playbook to go from wherever you are to becoming to getting to your first million and achieving financial freedom. It's like the playbook that I wish I'd had when I was starting. I'm just really excited to have my journey culminate in this like physical book that people can hold.

I love it. I think, I mean writing a book is, I know just from people around me, a very intense process and there's so much that goes into it. I love the breakdown of what you just said and I think that I'm so excited to read it because I think it's going to be such an important conversation to have have. Because I think what you're nailing on is the fact that when people think about finances, right, if you're in debt, it's like the sexiest thing to think about is like this wealth building, this business building, especially in this era that we're in right now, online businesses and all of this stuff. And I see it all the time, the, the strategy that's going to get you exactly what you're saying, from debt to zero and then above and beyond is it's different, it's a different mindset, it's different tactic and there's different things to focus on. If you are in six figures of credit card debt, you should not be focused on wealth building and leverage. Like it's just, that's not where you're at. That's not going to help you. Your money is not going to be working as hard for you. You got to get out of debt and you got to get out of debt by changing your habits and changing the way that you're thinking and treating money. And like you said, once you get that skill, and I think this also leans into this like all or nothing mentality. It's like needing to do it all. It's like micro Decisions like changing these microhabits are, we're going to get you and it's going to slowly lay the foundation for you, you to then take on more. I think what happens too when people try and think about this big scary like wealth building, like if someone's in six figures of debt and they're hearing you say that you just spent six figures in renovations out of pocket on a rental property, they're like, that's so scary. Why would I ever go into that wealth building? And it's like, you shouldn't, you should not be thinking about that right now. You should be thinking about these other foundational things. And slowly over time you expand as an individual. Your capacity to hold money and to hold wealth grows over time. And the little things don't trigger you as much. And this now these big things that felt so intimidating and so scary, like you have a, you're like, okay, because I proved myself, I can build these little things. I think getting out of debt was such a financial confidence booster for me to be able to move into these other chapters. I'm like, if I wouldn't have had that, like would I have had the confidence to keep going and to build a business? I think that's such an important conversation to have. And again, we just live in this society right now where social media makes it sound so like make all this money on the Internet and build all this wealth and become a millionaire overnight. And so people are getting scammed by these like get rich quick schemes and thinking that they can just go do all these crazy investments and get these crazy returns and then. But like you're in all this debt, like we just, we gotta focus on the problem at hand in front of us and move through it in a stage. And I actually think the way that you're breaking it down is gonna be like bite size attainable. Like where are you at? Like don't get so overwhelmed and get lost in the sauce about like all these tax saving strategies and leverage and other people's money. If that's not where you're, that's not what's gonna benefit you right now. So, so I could talk about this forever, but I'm just really excited. I can't wait to see how you break it down. Cause I think that's going to be really important.

Yeah, there's skills and mindset up levels you have to make at each stage and the more bite sized it feels, the more doable it seems for people. Because if you're in debt, a million seems impossible. And I Have to share that. When I first started, my mountaintop was zero. I just wanted to get to zero. I wasn't even thinking about a million. But once I got to zero, I was like, okay, now maybe, maybe a hundred thousand seems doable. And then when I got to a hundred thousand, not a million seems doable. So yeah, you get to one mountaintop, you'll see the next one. But don't worry about all the ones until you get there.

Yeah, we can't be looking 10 steps ahead. Like, just get to the next thing in front of you and then the next step will be presenting itself and it'll feel a lot easier. So I think that's great. I'm curious. Okay, so we've got real estate, stock market businesses. Right. The three main areas to build wealth. You are, I've been in all of them. I'm curious, what's your favorite? What's like your tried and true way? Because I think we talked about this a little bit about how real estate feels so sexy. But it's like low key. A lot of work. There's just, there's all these narratives out there from the perspective of someone that is doing all of them. What's your stance on them? What's your favorite way to encourage people to build wealth and get started? And are there ones that you're like, not that interested in anymore? Like, I want to hear your insights.

One thing you forgot to mention is crypto. I have a little bit in Bitcoin and Ethereum. Just because it's, it's a new and emerging asset class. It's, it's actually becoming an official asset class that I don't think we can ignore it. Not more than 10% of your investments ever, but something, I think it deserves a portion. So yeah, between all of those, I like the thing that's the most passive and actually pays income. And crypto, even though the gains can be amazing, doesn't pay dividends. I like stocks because as out of all the investments my stocks have performed, maybe not the best. Like crypto's actually done more because it's crypto, but it's paid me a lot of reliable quarterly dividends and it's never asked me to approve a build, to fix a dryer or, you know, plumbing that broke down. So I, I, I fully believe that out of all the investments, at the end of the day, it's actually the one that makes the most sense for you. So regardless of what everyone says, how rental property is really passive and great for wealth building, if it doesn't work for you, then don't do it. I personally don't enjoy learning about epoxy pool finishes and whether my roofing should be this material or that material. And even though you have a property manager, you still have to know those things. You own the property and you have to tell the property manager whether to buy this thing or that thing. Can't, you can't ever outsource that. Nobody ever told me that. They just said it's passive, you're going to love it, it's such a great investment. But then when you're actually doing it and you're like in Europe and you're trying to have fun, but then you're getting all these emails about this pool plumbing issue, that's not fun. So I don't care what people say about how real estate is the best wealth building vehicle in the world. I found that, that it doesn't, doesn't, it's. I don't enjoy it. And so as soon as it makes sense financially, I'm gonna try and find a way to reroute that money, sell the properties and reroute that money towards something more passive like stocks. Cause that's what fits my lifestyle. I'm someone who doesn't want to spend time managing my investments. Maybe you know, a couple times a year checking in on your portfolio, rebalancing those things. For some people, they may really enjoy that hands on aspect of construction and renovating. So yeah, then do do that. That being said, where everyone should start is with stocks, just index funds, diversified stock market funds in your. Ok because first of all that's the easiest thing to buy in your brokerage accounts and your retirement accounts. And it's just something you can automate, set and forget. And if, even if you do nothing else in your life with investing, if you just invest $500 a month, in 30 years you're gonna have a million dollars based on historical stock market returns. You can, you can't really create that reliably with real estate because it depends a lot on whether you bought the right property and did you manage it well and did you find the right tenants. And there's all kinds of factors that depend on skill and luck. So I do think the bread and butter that everyone should just start with is stock market. And then if you want to do extra on top of that, I think you really want to ask yourself what investments will you enjoy managing and fit your lifestyle?

Yeah, I love that. And how much time and energy do you want to be putting into that? Because I just feel like, yeah, to your point, the stock market gets shit on because it's just like, it's boring and whatever. You can want to beat all these returns, but it's literally the most tried and true way. I wish I would have prioritized it a lot more at the start of my journey, but I too got sucked into this like lore of real estate investing. If I would have put all the money I put into real estate investing just into the stock market, we would be way further along on our journey. But that's okay. You live and you learn. And I learned. I don't like out of state rental properties. It was such an anxiety ridden experience for me that I'm just like, we're good for now. I'm actually just going to go with this, this, this action. The stock market side over here. I have to ask you one quick question on this because I know this is where you got started. One of the biggest things that you were doing was helping people with options trading, which I feel like is kind of different than this long term index fund wealth building. So what's your, what's your breakdown here and what do you say to this idea that options trading is essentially gambling? Because I feel like that's a big narrative that goes on around this. How should people be viewing options trade inverse, like buying long term index funds when they're thinking about money wealth of this stuff.

So options trading, I view it as completely separate from investing. I actually viewed it more as a side hustle that you do to generate extra cash flow, but you keep that completely separate from your investments. Like your investment. Because there's a difference between trading and investing. Right? They're completely different things. Investing is your bread and butter.

Like they think of investments or they think of this as this like day trading type thing. So I'm glad we're talking about this.

Yeah, like trading is Wolf of Wall Street, Jim Cramer. Buy this stock, this is hot now and then sell it when it goes up, that type of thing. But investing is really boring and you never hear about it in the news because it's boring. You just buy and hold and you just benefit from the long term inevitable upward trajectory of the economy because you've bought a piece of the entire economy. So there's really nothing sexy or newsworthy about investing. But that is the thing that builds wealth reliably. Trading is a crapshoot. It's basically gambling. But, but I know that option trading has a bad rap and it's basically a way to gamble. If you do it A certain way because you can buy options or you can sell options. When I started learning about this stuff, I realized, oh, there's this whole world where you actually can sell the options instead of buying them. Buying them is you buy to and then you hope that you can. It pays off soon enough so you can sell the option at a profit. But when you sell, you collect the money up front because you know when you sell something, like if you sell something on Facebook, Market Marketplace, you immediately get cash for that item, right? So when you sell an option, you sell this item, this option, and then you get cash upfront. And then as long as certain things don't happen, like if the stock doesn't reach a certain price by a certain time, you get to keep that cash that you collected up front. And there's, you have to do it in ways that protect your downside and all these things. But it's essentially like being the casino instead of playing at the casino because you know, casinos are extremely profitable. It's extremely profitable to be the casin. So there is. So when I discovered this way of options trading that is like being the casino, it really resonated with me because I'm like, well obviously you should do the thing that gives you the edge where you're being the casino and not playing at the casino. Like you're. Instead of gambling, you're actually running a business. That's, that's what really resonated with me. But to be transparent, that was something I was super into a couple of years ago. And I have phased out of most of my options trading now. I'll place a few trades here and there, covered calls, cash secured puts, like really simple ones to generate a little extra, extra cash flow because why not? But it's not something I'm super focused on at the moment.

It's not a wealth building strategy. It's an additional income stream.

Yeah, yeah. Wealth building is investing. Keep long term investing. That's sacred. Never ever touch that, automate it, never stop doing that. And then option trading, if you want to create some extra income and do a little, do a little something sexy and intellectually stimulating on the side because it's cool. It's cool to like understand these really advanced financial things and then be able to generate money from it. Like, I get a kick out of that. And that's, I really got a kick out of teaching something so complicated to people and then having them get it and having them start generating money from anywhere at any time. That was amazing. But yeah, I just want to make it clear trading is not investing. Those are two completely separate things.

Yeah, that's what I wanted to get across because I feel like sometimes people feel like when I talk about investing and buying in the stock market that it's like this. They got to be in there all day, every day. And I'm like, I feel like you're thinking of trading, and we really got to make sure that we're viewing these as two very, very different things with very different objectives. Very different objectives. Okay. And I'm going to end it with just a few rapid fire questions for you. You ready?

Oh, fun. Okay.

Okay. What is one money habit that you are never going to give up?

Okay. I'm not perfect with this, but checking in on my money every month. I call it my monthly money date. Ideally, it's on the 1st, but even if I move it, I really check in with my budget and look at all my accounts and investments and debts and where I stand every single month.

Like, love that. Such a good one. Okay, what's a hobby or interest that is currently lighting you up?

Ooh. So last night I was on the beach doing this Wednesday, Flow nights. I'm really into, like, flow toys right now. I'm trying to learn rope dart. It's like a fire. Fire dancing toy. I only know, like, two tricks that I keep doing over and over, so I need to expand my trick repertoire. But I'm really loving that hobby. I'm kind of obsessed right now. Okay.

I love that. I'm gonna. I. I want you to send me a video of you doing it.

I want to see.

See it. Okay, last one. What's the most misunderstood piece of financial advice you think that there is out there?

Misunderstood? Man, there's so many.

There are. Literally.

I think the one I would go with is there's a huge difference between looking rich and being rich. Looking rich is what? Actually trying to look rich is the thing that's going to actually make you poor. But if you focus on being rich, regardless of whether you look the part or not, then you can actually be rich. It's counterintuitive. Don't buy the nice cars and the. The fancy handbags just to look rich. If you actually want to be rich, buy assets, investments, stay out of debt, save and invest, and then let those investments then buy you the nice car in the handbag that's actually being rich.

Yeah. That was the mindset shift for rich dad, poor dad. That blew my mind. Like, oh, people are buying assets, and the assets are paying for their liabilities. I'm just over here buying all the liabilities. Like, no wonder I can't get, like, I can't get ahead. So I love that. I think that's like such a tried and true thing. But with the society, with consumerism, with social media, it's really easy to get sucked into, like, I want all the nice things. So I think that's a really good piece of advice. Okay. I usually ask what book we all need to read to wrap this up, but I think the answer is obviously your book. So I'm going to make sure that we link it in the show notes. I cannot wait to read it. I cannot wait to share it with everyone because again, I just already love your philosophy and approach behind it. So if you guys are listening to this September 2nd second the book comes out and I will link it in the show notes so you can make sure to place your order. And if you guys got anything positive from this book or from this podcast episode, and if you read the book and you get anything from it, make sure you go ahead and follow Rose on Instagram, shoot her a dm, let her know how the book helped you, how this conversation might have helped you. Rose, I just thank you so much for being here and having this conversation again, just finding other women in this space that are trying to share this conversation and put financial literacy at everybody's fingertips so that everybody can feel what it feels like to live a healthy, fulfilled, happy, joyful life through the lens of personal finance. I'm obsessed with. So thank you so much for your work. Thank you for being here and just so excited to be in your circle now and call you a friend. I am grateful for you and I will see you guys all on the next episode.