https://www.listennotes.com/e/1eebaf3c132f494d838ddcf0e5547a9c

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another Women to Women podcast series. And today, I'm delighted to have someone that's going to give us lots of information that we really need to hear. And that is Deborah Atkinson. So I've known Deborah a couple of years, actually, maybe five or six years, not sure. She's a wellness coach, hormone balancing fitness expert, which many of you want to know about. and the Flipping 50 has helped over 200,000 women flip the second half of their lives with vitality and energy and what they want. She's the bestselling author of youf Still Got It, Girl. I love that title. The After 50 Fitness Formula for Women Navigating Fitness After 50. Your GPS for choosing programs and professionals you can trust and hot, not bothered. Deborah hosts Flipping 50 TV and the Flipping 50 podcast and AARP Top Podcast for 50+, which I think is amazing. She's a frequent speaker and TED Talk presenter of Everything Women in Menopause Learned About Exercise May Be a Lie. She has 37 years full-time fitness experience as an international fitness presenter. She's an American Council on Exercise subject matter expert and prior senior lecturer in kinesiology at Iowa State University. She's co-founder of Flipping50.com and creator of the Flipping 50 Fitness Specialist Program for fitness professionals, lots of words there.

So welcome. Thank you. Thanks.

So how in the world did you get into this? I mean, you know, people are desperate. We've got lots of questions that I want to find out about for women over 50. How did you, how did you begin to do this?

You know, way back when, I'll give you the twofold story. So when I first became an exercise science major, which is what it was called back in the day, I had had no intention of ever doing that. I grew up thinking I was drawing constantly, so I was gonna be a graphic designer. And that was just, there I was. And I was, for the first time in my life, I was about two years into self initiated exercise. I'd started walking after high school, 'cause I was gonna put on a swimsuit and be a lifeguard in the summer, of course. So we've got that motivation, it's always that. And I was really enjoying it. I was feeling so different and empowered. You know, you start for how we're gonna look and then the things we get on the outside, but you stay because of the way it really makes you feel and the things you get otherwise. And what I realized is I had one foot in physical education one semester, the other one still in graphic design, but I was feeling, I didn't feel, in graphic design anymore because everyone there smoked and drank and stayed up all night to do projects. And I was being this health buff all of a sudden and I'm like.

I don't fit here.

I can't do this. So I switched. I had some great instructors and realized I want to do what they did for me. I want to empower women too. And I know that term is thrown around a lot, but to not just get the physical benefits but get the be able to walk into a room with confidence, be confident and love yourself in your own skin so that you can get on and share your skills and your talents. And that's what I wanted to do. I was an old soul because I was the youngest child raised by older parents. So when I was 22 and started doing exercise clinics for college and grad school, I was given older adults from the very beginning. So I'd been working with the baby boomers ever since I finished and I didn't know I was doing research at the time. But then by the time I was in my early 40s, I kept hearing this recurrent theme from those midlife women, like nobody gets us. Like my doctor is just saying, well, that's menopause and not really hearing or giving solutions or offering as if there were any at all that this is just it. hello to your new life. And so I knew there was an issue with them being heard by trainers and health fitness experts as well. And that's really how I started Flipping 50. I was training for marketing and sales in fitness. I was training professionals how to grow their businesses with more integrity so that we up-level the fitness business. But I realized if I wasn't still working with clients, I would become very irrelevant very quickly. So I said, okay, I've got to pick a niche and that's who I picked because of course we solve our own problems and I was 49 and the rest is history. So the Flipping 50 community has grown so very rapidly and it's an honor to serve these women who are going into their second half.

So let's talk a little bit more about that because I see people in my practice all the time and the question always is, I'm doing everything right and I'm not getting muscle tone and I'm not noticing that my muscles are any different than they were before and the heck with this.

Yep. So, you know, and I think the thing is that you probably are doing everything you think is right that you were taught is right, but unfortunately there's a gap between the science that really is out there for you because there's such a small amount out there. And I said this in my TED Talk, just 39% of all exercise science research features women, but that's women of all ages with seven different hormonal phases we might go through in our lives. Not every woman goes through all, but many women go through some of those more than once. and every one of those dictates that we need a special exercise prescription and menopause is a big one. So we wouldn't exercise when we were pregnant the way we exercised as an adolescent who wanted to be in athletics. And we wouldn't exercise a woman in post-menopause really concerned about bone density and falling and muscle mass the same way we would exercise that postpartum woman. So you can see that so very vastly different, but about 10% or less of all research is about women in menopause. And even if you're personal training, one-on-one, that trainer is potentially telling you and showing you what's okay for your knees and your hips, but may not actually be looking at research about what kind of cardio, what kind of schedule, how much recovery, that you need. So we've got to ask if you didn't before, you have to say, what's the research behind what we're doing? I would just go into your next session and maybe ask that question.

So give me an example. What is the best exercise for maintaining muscle? I mean, it's one of the things I see in my practice all the time is people with pretty significant osteopenia, osteoporosis. And the first thing I say to them is, look, you've got to do some weights. You gotta build.

Yeah, absolutely.

Huge. What is the kind of the key piece to that and how do they begin to start? If they're not even doing anything, where do they start?

Yeah. So strength training is a girl's best friend. And honestly, the best time to start is when you're young. But the next best time is just like a tree today.

Right.

It's the next time. And I think one of the questions someone with osteopenia or osteoporosis will say it was Can I do that? Is that safe for me? And it's far safer for you to start than not to start. So yes, you need a trainer who is willing to do a little digging and find the exercises that are low risk for you and really target those osteo zones, your wrist and your spine and your hip and make sure that you are improving the bone density in those, improving your balance and your strength so you don't fall down at all. Anyway, I mean, that's a big one. So we want to increase your balance. But we want to start with a low frequency twice a week, and we want to start with a fairly low weight. Ultimately, the research is pretty clear that heavier weights is better for bone density, but no one should start that way. So if that's a red flag, anybody's listening and feels like they're vulnerable, I can't lift heavy, I don't want to get hurt, totally hear you. Nobody wants you to start heavy. You have to start light. work your way up. And that could take a couple of months before you get heavier.

So when you say heavy, what are you talking about?

Yeah, we define that by how many repetitions you can do. So when I say fatigue, that's a word that gets thrown around in our audience a lot, but we're not talking about tired, like the kind of being tired. We're really talking about muscular fatigue. So if you were going to do an exercise and you were going to say do 50 that 13th and the 14th and the 15th should have you questioning, I'm not sure I'm gonna get all of these out. This is really hard. This is the last one I can do really well and I'm going to have to stop and I'm so glad I have a break. That's reaching muscular fatigue. But if you're, say, going to a group fitness class, sometimes the risk is you finish and they finish 10 or 12 repetitions and you put those down. But if I said, Could you do five more? And you said, Yes, you haven't done enough stimulating of that muscle or the bone in order to get the compensation that makes them both stronger.

Got it. So, you know, what would you recommend for someone that's just starting out? Here's my concern, and that is, I think a lot of people that are doing fitness, they don't have a ton of background in really kind of understanding the science. so how does somebody pick somebody that's really well-versed and knows certainly about menopausal women?

Yeah, great question. So there are a couple of good, really good resources and a couple of things you might be looking for would be something called a medical exercise specialist. So someone with that designation, they have been a personal trainer, but they've actually gotten more on top of that. So it's like grad school. They've gone to grad school for personal training and they're used to working with someone who's it's got special populations. So it's got special conditions. It's something different and unique that requires a special protocol. So you can look there. There's also an association called MedFit, and you can go to medfit.org, and you can search within your zip code if you're looking for someone in your area to find how could I hook up with a trainer who's listed on that directory. Because there's one thing that you want to know about personal trainers or fitness instructors in general, that they can get certified and unfortunately it's still an ungoverned industry and they have to get continuing education, but unlike you, Marcel, they can take their continuing education about anything. So they may be working with women who have cancer or have osteoporosis, but they could take their continuing education about 20 exercises to do with a medicine ball instead of about literally the science of bone or muscle or how nutrition plays into that. It's very, very unregulated. So you want to ask some of those questions yourself. What was the last continuing education course you took?

That'll be interesting.

Yeah, it could be.

Absolutely. So what is the, what's the best exercise? If people are just beginning, Is it arms? Is it legs? Is it both? And for how long?

Yeah. Great question. So two common questions actually. So you want to work with major muscles because those are going to have the biggest impact into anybody who's saying, But it's summer and I want to go sleeveless, even though I have osteoporosis. Because that is okay. Whatever motivates us, it's a two-for-one. You get the health benefits too. So if it's vanity, I totally get it. But you want to go for those major muscle groups because they're what help you change your metabolism. They really boost that, and that's going to get to the major sources we mentioned. The osteo zones, if we're talking bone density, your hip, your spine, and your wrist are also going to benefit. So major muscle group exercises would be squats, and lunges. And to anybody who just said, wait, my knees won't let me do that anymore, I've got an answer for you. So I'm going to come back to that. But then chest press, the push-up motion, but with dumbbells. And I love a chest press with dumbbells more than I love a push-up for most women because most women don't have the shoulder and upper body strength to do a push-up with really good form, at least to start. So if you're going to do it, you might want to start on a wall or a chair so you're elevated and it's not your full body weight because we don't want to train the bad ones, just the good ones. So we want really good form and a rowing exercise. And I like to see rowing pulling exercises 2:1 because of our posture. We're all so over our keyboards and we don't have this dancer's posture that I'm looking at right here. Your dancer's posture right here is impeccable, right? And we all need to remind ourselves of that, carrying ourselves that way. So pulling will help you do that, bring those shoulder blades back. The more pushing you do, the more we tend to round, so you want to push back. So for those of you who can't do squats and lunges, sometimes it's not that you can't do them, it's sometimes that you haven't heard the right cues ever in your life, even if you've been exercising for decades. I find a lot of women still are putting their weight on the balls of their feet and their toes when in a squat and don't realize that your knees are feeling all of that weight instead of sitting back and putting your weight on your heels as if you're about to sit in a chair. So sometimes it's try it again with some different cueing, but otherwise you may need to get on the floor, which can be an obstacle for some women. But using a ball to do hip bridges and hamstring curls at least takes the weight load off of your knees and then can make that something you can do even at home.

So that brings me to another question, and that is that if somebody is, say, 65 and they haven't really been exercising much, what do you recommend with regards to cardio? You know, some people that have been Runners for a long time. I'm not a big fan of running at that age because it really is hard on the knees. And also, what, how do they even, you know, do they do 10 minutes twice a week, 15 minutes twice a week? and they will now know how to go to medfit.org to find somebody that knows what they're doing in regards to this. Right.

Yeah, so good place to start for cardio. So first of all, everybody needs a base. We all need to start somewhere. So we don't need to start doing interval training right away, even though you may hear and you'll hear from me that that is an excellent thing. And when you're 85, I hope you get breathless a couple minutes every day. not because of the stairs, but on purpose because of exercise. And you will probably feel better when you're 95 if you do that. But when you start today, you know, walking for 10 minutes at a time, and if you can do two different 10-minute stints, fantastic. So it does all add up. But for beginning, it's first of all, you need to say, what am I willing to commit to? What's realistic for my schedule and that I can say, I can do that, and let yourself be very successful as you get started. So we've all probably started and stopped before in our lives. We're great at that because we tend to bite off more than we can chew. And then we're all or nothing, and that's human nature. So if you let yourself start with less than you think that you could easily do and finish saying, I could have done more, Fantastic. Finish that way on purpose. Next week, walk 12 minutes instead of 10 each time that you go out. Your body will barely notice the difference, but after a month, you're now up to 18 minutes. That's a significant increase. And after a couple of months, now you're walking maybe 25 to 30 minutes. Now we're talking. Now you might say, Put a hill in the middle of that and let's Go up it as hard as you can, walk back down two or three times. That's an interval and now you're there.

Awesome. And what about the worst, so many people that I see are just belly and they're reading everything online, what can I do for my belly fat? Oh my God, is that the next best thing that I can do? Oh, it's going to be this new ingredient and it's going to take it away overnight.

Yes.

What's the best solution for that? What can you do instead of that magic book?

Yeah, well, you know, there are three little words that often, as I train trainers, I tell them, these are the words you're going to hear from your midlife clients and beyond. And it's not, I love you. It is, Don't hurt me.

Right?

And we have to remember that when we're working with CORE, because we sometimes go to the extreme of vanity and we do it at the expense, unfortunately, of our lower back. so if you've ever experienced that, I have interviewed multiple experts on back pain because I was thrown off of a horse right before grad school onto a pile of wood. So I had some significant nerve damage. I had the handicap sticker all summer long on campus for summer school, and I thought, am I going to be able to do my grad assistantship? I'm supposed to teach six Fitness classes a week as a part of that. and unfortunately I healed and I was able to do it, so the rest is history, but I got it at a very early age, what back pain feels like. So even though you're thinking core and how do I get that, I would take a four pack, right? A lot of women will say, I don't care about the six, I'll just take four. But truly there's lots of things going on and as you know, and you can probably better address sometimes, what you think requires core exercise is actually bloating. And there's more to do and deal with with your gut and your gut health. And so I try to separate that out and let them know all the core work in the world is not going to help that. It might temporarily, because you're moving, you get a little circulation, but it's not going to help the root cause of that. So we've got to separate what are the problems. So it could be that. And then there's two other Is it this or is it this? Is it that you've gained belly fat and visceral belly fat, which is a health risk? Or is it that truly you need to tone those muscles, that your core muscles actually need attention? And in most cases, I could talk myself right out of a job right here, I know, but in most cases it's not core exercise. It's actually a combination of bloating and the belly fat. So, there's probably core muscle under there because almost no woman ever, ever, ever doesn't do core exercise. It's almost the favorite thing for women because we want that waistline back. We go right there. And what am I going to do for core? I gotta do some core. So, think about if you're giving your core some attention. You've got some muscles, but do we need to get rid of the belly fat? And that's a definite health risk. So, Two things you and I both know. It's stress, cortisol plus insulin will relocate all of those fat cells right to the belly, right where we don't want them. So you've got to take a good look at your sugar intake and your wine. So that's a piece of that. I've got to educate people that it's not all about the exercise. You've got to look at the flip side as well. But doing interval training. So once you've walked those miles you put in your paces, and you're doing interval training, that is for women in post-menopause, the number one kind of cardio, the type that actually helps target visceral belly fat best. So for those of you that are thinking, well, I can't walk because of my knees, or I can't do high impact, we didn't even say high impact, right? So you can do that on a rowing machine, you can do that on a bicycle. and there are studies literally with postmenopausal women doing bicycle that have shown significant losses of visceral belly fat and even minute gains of lean muscle mass, which is almost unheard of when we talk about cardio. So it's a nice perk. So we've got to work on it from that side. So let's talk core exercises. You know, if I can leave you with one thing, I would say this never, ever, ever, Ever, ever, ever do crunches and sit-ups again. So challenge yourself if you're defaulting to those things and you think that they've worked. What I'm going to challenge in response is that you've been just very lucky that we and a lot of experts will say we only have so many forward flexions in our spine. And we're putting a lot of stress on that lumbar spine when we're doing crunches and sit-ups. And often we're also pulling on our head and cervical spine. So it's not really helping our alignment. And if you will think about what do you want, why are you doing core, it also doesn't get you what you want. And that may be the biggest motivator of all to leave it out. We want them flat, right? We want them tight and toned. So when we roll forward and crunch up, we're actually bridging the belly up. It comes up bigger while we're doing that. How would we ever think that would leave us with a flat stomach, right? It doesn't work that way. Planking has become very, very popular and yet I would say do intelligent kinds of planks if you're doing them. Move your legs as you're doing them. Don't go for those long, long holds, but try to move an arm out to the side, move a leg out to the side, bend your knees, lift a leg up. Changing like that can really make a difference because when you think about it, We stabilize with our core. That's the job they do while we're moving arms and legs. And so being just static, holding yourself still may challenge you and you'll feel like, oh, I feel the burn. But Jane Fonda called and wants that back. Okay? So that one blew the coop. So you want to do five different kinds of movement. So that core plank is stabilization, but lateral flexion, some kind of lateral flexion is also good. So sideways. And you can see here, how yoga is actually core work from start to end when you're doing something standing. So not a restorative yoga, of course, but other kinds are almost core all the way through. And you are rotating, which is another movement the core does. And there's forward flexion. But when you think about, say, downward facing dog, that's getting into forward flexion without actually doing a crunch. Your spine is really fairly long, so it's a much safer way to do it. And then back extension. And when you think about what move do we need most often to counter our poor posture, it's back extension and we don't get that very often. So just lying on the floor and just even raising your head and neck can get you that.

And what about, you know, the really the best exercise for women over 45-50? What would that be?

The best ever would be strength training. So if you're going to look at what are my highest priorities and planning your week, get that strength training in there. And the other one thing that you want to make sure you put in your week that a lot of women forget is your recovery day, your rest day, when you're not exercising. You're just being an active person. So there's exercise and then there's movement. And it's really the movement is for postmenopausal women, one of the biggest needle movers. So getting up, going for those walks, but not of necessarily any intensity, just moving because we're so sedentary and perimenopause, it's less a factor. You do want to exercise within reason so you're not exhausting yourself, but more movement for somebody in perimenopause who's got a lot of symptoms and maybe extra fatigue. You don't want to throw yourself under the bus, giving yourself this quota, but it seems that post-menopause, more movement put into your day, the more you just get up, go for walks, clean your house, go golfing, all of those things really seem to matter to weight loss or optimal body composition, depending on your goal.

So if we talk about a regular week, then, Debra, what does that look like? you know, how many days a week are they doing interval training? How many days of the week are they and for how long are they doing weight training? When they get up to their goal, obviously we're going to start slowly. What does a week look like?

Yeah, so ideally I like two and two and two seems to be the magic number in the research again with postmenopausal women. Two, not one and not three. So let's look at that. Twice a week strength training, twice a week interval training. low to moderate exercise every day. So that is the go for a walk, walk with your spouse or your partner after dinner, walk the dog, don't have a dog, get a dog, borrow a dog, and play with the grandchildren, don't just watch the grandchildren. Those little things all matter. That can be every day. So two tends to be the best as far as overall energy expenditure. and here's why. When we do three, we do more, we tend to couch compensate. The research showed when subjects did three, they would rest more afterward. It's kind of that if you've ever said, oh, I worked out today. I'm really tired. I'm going to just rest. I'm not going to go for the walk. I'm not going to do that extra because I worked out today. You know, that's actually defeating the purpose. exercise should make you better at life, not just the exercise, right? So we've got to think about what's the purpose of it. But those who did twice a week, they had the strength and they had the endurance, but they also still had the energy that they were motivated to do the extra things. So if you've always been thinking, I'm going to clean out that guest bedroom, you will have the mojo to go do it as opposed to thinking about it. Yeah.

So, and that's probably a relief to people because that's an amazing thing where, you know, women are told they exercise four and five times a week and that's the way to do it. So what you're saying is two days of interval, two days of weight training for maybe 30 minutes to it or so, and then the rest of the time maybe going for a walk or doing something else in between. So that leaves three additional days besides that, which is fantastic. so you have more time.

Yes, and it's true. And although it's a relief for some, there are some who are here who are going to say, that's a really hard thing for me to do and not do more, not think I need to do more. Because we tend to, even though, as I say this, this will be insanity when you hear me say it, when something's not working and we're doing it a little, what we tend to do is do more of what is not working. Is that nuts or what? I mean, we should get some hint that's working in our favor and that will tell us we're on the right path. But doing more often just really pushes you to the limit and you are more tired, more hungry, more cravings, not really sleeping better. You're in fact maybe disruptive as far as sleep goes. Those are signs you're not going in the right direction. So look for the signs that you are.

Absolutely. And I think they'll be able to see it also in their bone densities as well as just their energy overall. I mean, the beauty of all this, of what you're saying, is that we can be very healthy and I believe this to my core into our 80s and 90s. And there's no reason for us to think any differently, especially if you started years ago. The name of the game now is to kind of up the ante a little bit more and do what's needed for you. And I love this notion of no crunches. I've been saying that for a long time for people because it's really, really hard on the lower back and the back and, you know, doing things that are core. Now, if they want to get something at home and they want to do something at home without getting a trainer, do you have any programs like that that they can really kind of tap into?

Absolutely. So I've got some digital programs, but I've got a way to just try it on. So I do something called a five-day flip. and this is literally how do I convince myself that less is more and how do I convince myself I can get started if you need a start or a restart? So it's called the 5-day flip. Everything in my world is flipping, right? So it's literally just the 15 minutes or less, you'll see the strength, you'll experience the intervals, and you'll get a recovery day. So I show you how to plan a week so that each day complements the rest so that you're ready for it, you're recovered for it, and looking forward to it.

Awesome. And how do they find that?

They'll find that at Flipping50.com/5dayflip.

Perfect. And now the big question is, if somebody was beginning this, how long does it take for them to see results? Especially when they're really wanting to tone their arms, that's what I hear all the time. or more in their legs? How long does that take?

Yeah, well, and I will tell you this. So there's variety in my answer because everybody listening is starting from a different place. So I will tell you, if you're a virgin, you have the most to experience, right? You have the most progress to make. And yet, if you're kind of hit and miss, you have been exercising regularly, you're not going to make as much progress as that person who just got off the couch and got started. So it's a really exciting time for those who are really starting, but everyone can potentially see some progress. We just did a little challenge and after day four, somebody was saying, I'm already sleeping better. I can't believe it, you were right. And by day eight, people were saying, I think I see muscle tone, right? And so it depends a little bit. Are you pulling together the other pieces? getting the sleep you need, you know, and drinking the water, getting the, you know, nutrient-rich diet that you need. So all the pieces count. But even if you just change one thing and you're exercising now, but you weren't, you'll see and feel some changes.

And I think the thing that I want to reiterate the most, which I love what you're saying, is that the notion of this happening for people that are younger is not always the case. Yes, it would be wonderful if you started younger, but you can start now and you can actually see changes even if you're 80. I mean, this is not just for people that are 50. This is for people to kind of recognize that we can change the biochemistry of the body and we can change the physiology of the body. So it's very exciting. I mean, really exciting.

It is so exciting. And it should be, you know, I would love to see it be mandatory that everyone after 50, had to strength train that every retirement and nursing home had a weight room. We'd age very differently.

No question about it. And I think the piece that you, you know, presented, which is so true, is that they do need to have a medical understanding to some degree. So they really, especially crunches, everywhere you go, everybody's still doing crunches for women. I mean, everywhere. And it's, you know, it's not something that really helps. as you get older. So, you know, I love your approach and I think it's going to help many people that are listening to this as well. So how can they find out more about you besides going to your website? Do you have additional pieces, books that you want to talk about or anything like that?

Well, you hit on a couple of them. So you still got it, girl, and Hot, Not Bothered, two great books. You know, I think if you really want to read a chapter and cover to cover and you want that science, you still got it, girl, as your book. But if you are, I've got short time, short attention span, Hot, Not Bothered is written in little two minute chapters with a tip that literally probably is something you're already doing. It will reinforce it or tweak it just a little bit to make it even better. So those two, and then I'm on social media. So frequently I'm going live. You'll find me everywhere at Flipping50TV, Flipping 50 TV.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much and it's going to change people's lives which is what I love and really help them transform. Thanks so much.

Thanks so much for having me.

Absolutely, it's my pleasure.