0071: The vital importance of copywriting and the importance imagery plays to your companies brand with the award-winning copywriter, cartoonist, speaker, and trainer Lisa Rothstein

Ea interviews, episode 71, inspiration, transformation, success stories and the imperfect action round. Seven days a week. Join Mario Ficcini for today's Expert Authority Effect interview. Have you ever thought about the vital importance of copywriting and what imagery does for your brand? I bet you have. And that's why I'm excited to bring Lisa Rothstein on the show for you today. She's an award winning copywriter. She's done ads for Fortune 500 companies. One of them, I just found out was a commercial for Hanes and I hope she brings that up. Actually, I'm the host. I'm gonna bring that up and have her sing it again because she goes, you might not remember this. And I actually did and it was pretty interesting. She's done copywriting for Bacardi. She also just had her cartoons published in the New Yorker. She has been doing this for so long and she can definitely help you. She's got a very impressive portfolio and I'm going to bring her up right after we thank our sponsor. Why every business needs a book, including yours. Would you like to save five plus hours with every prospect? Generate more leads and profit in your business? Now visit businessbookchecklist.com and learn how you can implement this in your business today. Ladies and gentlemen, here she is learning Lisa Rothstein. Lisa, how are you?

I'm doing great. How are you?

I can breathe again. So we're good.

That's great. We can choke together.

It's a good day. I'm excited to have you on. It's been, it's been a long time coming and I'm excited to have you here because I know the value you bring to the table. Ever since we met years ago, I just have loved your work, love what you've been up to and you're still at it, which is very impressive. And I know everyone that's listening will get a lot out of it, so. So let's just jump right in with the first one. What inspired you to get into copywriting and branding and imaging?

Well, it's funny, when I was a little kid, I would sit in front of the tv, my parents would just park me there and go off and do other things. And I always found the commercials more interesting than the programs. I was always really fascinated by these short little stories that would get told and a product was the star of the story. But it didn't really matter to me that it was about selling a product. To me it was really exciting and interesting. So I got into the habit of watching the commercials and memorizing them all and then just wandering off during the actual programs. And when I grew up, excuse me, I went to college and I found out you could actually get a job creating these things. I thought, my God, they pay you for this. This is great. And so I got recruited out of college while I was still in college, got recruited by a big agency to come and work and become a copywriter in their training program and in the ad business. I don't know if you ever watched the old series 30 something, but in the creative department of an advertising agency, an old fashioned Mad Men style advertising agency, which is what I did.

The art director and a copywriter work together as a team. So the two of you kind of bounce ideas off of each other and then you create print ads, TV commercials, and things like that. So I would have been happy to start as an art director or as a copywriter because I liked to draw and do visuals and also to write. But this was the first job I got, so that's how I ended up writing copy. And I just loved was, you know, it's just super exciting to sit around with people bouncing ideas around and then come out, create something that you eventually turn on your TELEVISION at home. I remember, I still remember the first time I was just in my house, you know, making dinner, and I heard the TV in the background and my commercial was on tv. I was like, wow. I went running into the living room to see it and it was really super exciting to have come full circle from that little kid sitting in front of the TV to being, you know, in my own house with my own TV and then having my stuff come on television. So, you know, that's, that's really how it started.

That is awesome. What commercial was that? The first one you heard?

Oh, my God. It was, this was, this was way before the time of anybody who's probably watching this. But it was a commercial for Chef Boyardee. You know, the canned spaghetti and canned ravioli.

Love Chef Boyardee.

Yeah, I love growing up. I grew up. I loved it growing up too. When I got to the agency, I discovered that it was the one. It was the, the account that one of those doggy accounts that nobody wants to work on American home foods. It was, it was, it was not everybody's favorite brand. And, and I was told when I started at the agency, I was around 20 years old, I'd gotten out of college early. And they said, oh, it's going to be years before they let you do tv. You're going to have to do all this other stuff, you know, pay your dues and whatever, before they let you shoot a television commercial. But then they put me on Chef Boyardee, which nobody really cared about, but I loved it. I was so excited to be actually working on a brand that I. That I had enjoyed as a child. And so I came up with a campaign that they liked and they bought. And next thing I knew, I was in Hollywood shooting the commercial, like, my first year, which they said was impossible.

It was a parody. I love jingles. I love music, as you'll find out later. And it was a parody on the Donna Summer sort of disco song, Hot Stuff. So it has these little kids singing about how they wanted hot. Like, hot stuff for lunch. They didn't want, you know. You know, like a peanut butter sandwich they would rather have. They were like, singing to their mom, kind of like, give me. Give me this for lunch. In fact, I can. Want me to sing. I still remember the lyrics.

Go for it. Absolutely.

The kids were singing.

I don't want a sandwich. No use trying. No cold and boring lunches for me. Give me something yummy and satisfying. Something good from Chef Boyardee. Looking for some hot stuff. And so they kept on singing about that. So that's how it went. And so there's some kids in that commercial that we cast ended up being, like, big actors later, like Candace Cameron Bure. I forgot what she's in now, but, like, she was, like, 4 years old.

Every Hallmark movie.

Yeah, every Hallmark movie ever. Yeah. She was like. She was a toddler when we cast that. But that was my first commercial, and it did really super well. And no one could believe that even. Even. It even got nominated for some awards. And no one could believe that. Oh, Chef Boyardee. This is, like, the least glamorous.

Account that we have at the agency. And no one paid any attention because they thought, oh, God, let her. Let her have it. We don't care. And so that was. But I was so excited when I was in the kitchen cooking. Not Chef Boyardee, but something else. And I heard it come on. I heard it come on TV and went running into the living room. I was all alone, and I was like, you know, where's everybody to see this moment? So it was exciting.

That is exciting. And I'm going to ask you about the other one in a bit, because I want you to say that one for everyone. Yeah, but I remember these. I loved Chef Boyardee.

I remember Hot Stuff. That you would have been like. Like. Like two.

That's Donna Summer's song. I don't remember that specific commercial commercial, but you can ask my friend Kyle. He came over every day. We had band. He would come over after school. We play, have Chef Boyardee, and we play twisted metal. And then we'd go to band practice. And it's nothing wrong. I actually want some shows.

It was a wonderful childhood memory, and it was great to be able to work on the product and help sell the product. So what makes advertising exciting for me? I mean, people say, oh, you're just trying to sell a product. Oh, it's all a bunch of spin and lies. But to me, it was more like, how do you create a world or a whole story around something? And it was always very fascinating to me, especially with what they call parody products. People who think they're really super boring, like different kinds of soap or different kinds of chocolate. And, you know, what's the difference between Nestle and Hershey? Well, there's a difference in the product itself, but the actual difference in, like, what you think of and how you feel when you think of these different brands has always been something that I've always. Even when I was a little kid, it's like, why do I like this one better than that one? You know, why do I keep trying to like Good and Plenty candy? I hate licorice, but I love the commercial with a little choo Choo Charlie train. And so why do you hate licorice? Well, I don't really like. It's not my favorite candy. But I loved the commercial, so I kept buying it, even though I didn't really care that much for the product because I wanted to have that Choo Choo Charlie experience. And so I was thinking, what is it about that I'd love to be. I'd love to work on those kinds of things that make people desire things for reasons other than what happens to be in the box. Like, what's the. One of the ingredients in the box? It has to do with what's the story about the ingredients in the box. And if you want to call that spin or lies, or if you want to call that romance and story and.

Theater, and I don't think it's spin or not. Everyone tells the truth. So lies are something different, but spin is. I look at his storytelling as a matter of fact, someone else that's coming on the show that I was speaking with earlier today, we were talking about this, and I go.

It'S just honesty. Tell them the story. Because you can say, hey, are you hungry? Here's A can of whatever. Or you can put on a whole production and have.

Celebrities dancing around in it, coming up with a song and make it creative. If you look at anything that's ever done well, it's all led with story. And when people go, I have a hard time selling my products and this and that, and when I help them, you know, get more visibility and such, I go, how do you have a hard time? Don't forget they sold the pet rock.

That's right. I love, I had a pet rock. I loved my pet rock. But what's, what's, what's great is though, that, that the best stories even, even if they're embellished, even if they're creative, are all based in some kind of truth. When, when we were doing that, that Chef Bardi commercial, yeah, we wanted to use music and we want to have kids dancing and singing and have it be fun. But the basic truth was kids, you know, hey mom, your kid really does prefer a hot lunch to a cold. It tastes better, they enjoy it more. And we're just, we're just, we're just dramatizing that in song and dance and music and, and fun. But, but, you know, the, the basic idea was here we were competing not against other, you know, the other option is I, you know, give your kid a sandwich that they're bored with and they may not eat where, here's the something that they're definitely going to eat. So which is, and it's all. That's true. So that's what we did. We just made, made more out of it than just like, well, here's what's actually in the can. So that's always been what's interested me about brand storytelling and about, you know, copywriting is just one component of that. When we would work together on coming up with ideas like that, it's really more about the idea. Like, what's the idea, what's the story, what's the angle? And then writing the actual words and coming up with what you're going to be seeing on screen or in the. A print ad or a meme on social is something that is just like, here's how you execute it.

So let's talk about that a little bit more. For the person watching that has a business going. I don't have award winning copywriting skills, but I do want to draw more people into my business so I can help them. Not for the sake of just drawing them in, but I believe everyone has a servant's heart, otherwise they won't get in business because it's not the easiest thing in the world. They want to serve more people. They just don't know how. They don't have our marketing background, copywriting, video, whatever the case may be. What would you say is a place that they should start to go? Okay, what's the first thing you should look at if you want to use copywriting in your favor?

Well, first of all, the. There, there's a big difference. There's some, there are some things that are different and there are some things that are the same about the kind of copywriting that I used to do in the ad business, the Mad Men style ad business, and the kind of copywriting that most people are going to want to do for their small businesses. And this is not any kind of a judgment on what's good or bad or who's got this talent or that talent. The kind of stuff that we used to do in the ad business, which is becoming a little bit less, you know, that kind of content is becoming a little bit out of style these days. But even though you'll still see some of it now, the whole kind of clever stuff that you would see from companies like Nike and other kinds of big companies is a kind of a different style than what you, what you would want to be doing as a, as a small business owner or solopreneur. And that's actually really good news because the idea, the fact is you not only do you not have to be a good copywriter, you don't have to be like someone who could win awards and have like all some kind of special like passion for it or talent for it the way someone like me might have. Not only do you not have to have that, but it's better if you don't. I had to unlearn a whole bunch of things going from that world to our world because the clever, slick tagline stuff really not only is it not necessary, it actually puts a lot of distance between you and the customer in our. When you've got your own business and you're dealing directly with customers. Now, the thing that's the same and that is at the basis of all good communication, copywriting, advertising, whatever you want to call it, is really understanding what is the truth behind this. But find what I'm selling here, what is the problem that I'm solving and the person that I'm solving it for. And I'm not going to say the whole cliche, what keeps them up at night and stuff like that, because I'm tired of hearing that you need to get Inside the head and the heart and the, and the really kind of almost play. Act your customer and say, you know, what is bothering them right now that my, that my product or service can help to solve? Or what's bothering them right now that my product or service solves in a way or fills a gap that nothing else can fill. Like, yeah, they can go do this, but they've got, they still got this problem. So.

That'S the first thing that I do with any of my clients is figure out who we're talking to and why would they want what we're selling. Like, what is it fixing? And what I do an exercise with people that I teach in my copywriting courses and that I also just do with all of my clients. And it works like a charm because a lot of people think, oh, I can't write my own copy. I don't know what to say. And it's like, you do know what to say because most of the time you are a, you, you are your customer. Like before you solve the problem, like after you solve the problem. Like they, you were them once, or you, at least you either you were them or you knew somebody like them once. You know, somebody like them now. So what I do with my clients, and this is so much fun, is I pair, have, I have them pair up with each other. If we're in a room, if I'm teaching, live at a conference or something, we're. Or I have, or I give them this homework to do with somebody else, maybe somebody else who also has their own business so they can kind of swap. And I have them role play, and one of them plays a therapist and the other one plays the customer. So it's basically like you're going to the therapist. You're your ideal customer going to the therapist. And the therapist says, so what's the problem? What seems to be the problem? Oh, well, you know, I've, I, I've got this £20 I just can't seem to lose. And it's just been bothering me. And, you know, I just want to. Well, so why is that a problem? Well, you know, I just don't feel attractive. And, and, you know, I want to go dating, and I don't feel like, I don't feel confident. And it's like, well, why is that? You know, so tell me more about that. Well, you know, I just feel like I'm never going to meet anybody again and I'm going to die alone. And, and, and, and it just, you know, like, just let them keep on talking like Pretend you're, You're. You're complaining and pouring out your heart to a therapist or a priest or a best friend or whoever it is that you would ever tell you talk to and have the other person just keep asking questions. Well, why. Why does that matter? You know, why does that matter? What's wrong with that? Why does life suck when that. Because of that. And then the more, the more you can get people to say that. And I always tell people, if you're smart, you will record this conversation. If you do it on Zoom or something like that, you can record it, then you can play it back. And then when you play it back, you'll find out that there's lots of great copy in there. Hey, are you, Are you feeling unattractive because of that weight you can't lose? Are you worried that you. That, that you're not going to ever feel like you can go out and date again or that you're getting. It's getting too late for you to be in a relationship because of this? You know, this is terrible copy, but you see where I'm going. It's like, gives you, kind of begins to give you, like, a connection to the customer. So you don't need to embellish that too much and make it all clever. It's just the more you can basically enter into the, I think it was John Capel said, enter into the conversation that's already taking place in your customer's mind. The more you can do that, the more you can explain to them that you understand their problem and can articulate it as well or better than they even can. Then they go, oh, my God, she really gets me. She really understands my problem. And then it's kind of a quick little cognitive leap from there to she gets me to. She knows how to fix it, you know, so the more they feel that you understand them, the better, the more, the more likely you are to be able to sell your. Whatever you've got to them. And so the other thing I like to say, like, therapist exercise is a lot of fun. And then you can sweat, then you can switch so, you know, you know, what's, what's the problem? And then just keep asking questions until you, until you've exhausted all of the, all of the juice out of that. But then the other thing I always like to say is one of the other cliches you hear all the time is that people do business with people who know, like, they know, like, and trust. And I always say, well, I think it's kind of the Opposite that people want to do business with people who know them, who like them and who trust them to get a result if they will work together. So it's like they want to feel understood, approved of. And you know, they want to feel that you, the seller, have confidence in their ability to get the result. But. And you're gonna, and you're there to help them. So you know that kind of relationship. The more you can write in a way that comes from a place where I understand your problem. It's not your fault. You're still a good person. Here's how I can help you. And I know you're going to get the result. If they, if they believe that about what you're saying, they're going to, they're going to want to buy from you. So those are the kinds of things that anyone can do. You don't have to be a fantastic writer. You don't have to like writing. You don't have to be able to come up with just do it or anything like that. It's not what it's about when you're doing direct kind of copywriting. So I always like to say that you don't have to be a madman. You have to, you just have to be a human talking to other humans and people like that. So I thought I'd throw that in there.

That's fantastic. That is very fantastic. Would you also say that the landscape has changed over the years and we're more connected now where you're not speaking to 10,000 people at once, that even if you have 10,000 people on social, let's say it's still a one to one communication.

Absolutely. That is the biggest mistake I see people making, including when they go on Facebook Live or something like that and they say, hey everybody, it's like, don't talk to everybody. Never talk to everybody. When you're sending out an email, especially an email, you're talking to one person. And it's always. But I think it should always have been that way. I mean, I think that the best, even, the best, even kind of Mad Men style advertising has always kind of been that way. They understood that the viewer is having an individual experience watching that TV commercial. They're not sitting there with a group of their friends. Unless it's like a Bud Light commercial where everybody's a group of friends together, then they're talking to people in a way that is meant to include a bunch of people. But most of the time, if you're trying to touch somebody's heart, you're not whether you're speaking on a stage in front of, you know, a thousand people or whether you're writing an email to a, to a mailing list of 50,000 people, you're still supposed to. You really are only effective if you're talking to one person. And it's really counterintuitive because you're, because you're thinking, oh, I've got this big tribe. But every person in the tribe is their own person and they have a one on one relationship with you. They may also have a relationship with each other, but the one that they're having with you is the one that you're, that you're focusing on when you're communicating with them. Not, not, you know, nobody wants to feel like just a faceless, nameless, you know, cog in a wheel in a crowd. No. So, yeah, that's so important to. And if that's one of the reasons why when I work with clients and this is where a little bit of my drawing stuff comes in, I always draw, we always draw together a big, a big sort of, you know, those big, huge post it notes that are like the size of, you know, like two to three feet.

Those are fun.

I use those. We've stick them all over the wall and we draw pictures of who is this person? Now it may be somebody that they actually know or somebody that's kind of a composite of all the people that they think they know. But we're still trying to come up with one character. So we draw kind of a cartoon of this person. Are they married? Do they have a dog? Where do they live? Is it urban? Do they own their home? Do they own a car? Do they work outside the home? Do they like their, do they like their job? Do they hate their job? You know, where do they have kids? How old are they? Are they in college? Are they at home? You know, how involved are they with their kids? How involved are they with their, you know, religion or their hobbies or politics or any of those things? And we draw that stuff. You know, what do they dream about? What do they wish they could do? What do they tell people? But what do they really think secretly inside? So I have thought balloons and voice balloons coming out everywhere. And when we're done, we have this whole big piece of paper, huge, filled up with all of these pictures and words and we give the person a name. And I say, you stick this on your wall. And that when you draw, when you write an email, you're writing to Mary or you're writing to Jack or whoever this person is. And pretend that that's the only person on your list. Just pretend that that's email. As you're writing, I promise you you're going to, it's going to be better, more heartfelt, more connected copy. And sometimes you really have to have a picture in your mind of who this person is. At least it helps me, it helps my clients a lot.

It helps me too. I was doing some stuff on LinkedIn yesterday and over, you know, talking to audiences, thousands of people, tens of thousands connecting with them. I've realized there's like a dozen 12 types of people on LinkedIn that you're gonna meet. So I made this little cheat sheet. And it's like you have the person who's just straight selling. You have the leader, as I call them, who actually wants to connect. You have the parrot who just rambles stuff off that everyone's saying. And they're behavioral types. And it's interesting when you're saying to create the characters. So that goes into my next question. Let's go from the words, the copy and the text to the images. How would you say that the images are important for what you're doing?

Images are so important. And I know speaking as a writer, it sounds kind of weird, but I've been. Words by themselves are very limited.

And especially when people, I see people who write copy who aren't as confident in their ability to just be natural and authentic and they come across like they, they write all this corporate jargon sounding stuff that sounds really super smart and intelligent. But I, you read a paragraph, it's like, I don't even know what that means. What does that even mean? So you're so confused that confusion is, is the opposite of connection. I mean, you've heard of confused mind says no, but it's like you, you're connected or you're confused, you can't be both. And so it's, it's really important to be super, super clear and really, you know, down to earth. And so images are much more faster, telegraphic way to express an idea. That's why I love drawing cartoons, especially this kind of stuff that you see in the New Yorker, which is very kind of, you know, you see, hopefully you get it right away. So it's really.

Words and pictures really, really go together. So whether you're doing video, but even if you're, even if you're writing a sales copy and you've got like images on the page, you really need, first of all, you need to break up text. Long text is death. You know, if I see a bunch of words, nobody wants to read, you know, so when I see a bunch of words, you know, I just tune out. But when you see pictures kind of, whether they're hand drawn or whether they're photographs just kind of leading you through the page, then you at least have an idea of what story are you telling. And I think it's sad when you're a kid, you've got picture books and you've got big pictures and just very few words. And the older you get, the words get. The words take up more of the page and the pictures take up less of the page until you're all words and no pictures at all. And I think that people are really starved for, for. For pictures that tell stories and that I've seen evidenced in the fact that graphic novels and things have gotten so much more popular with adults in the past couple of decades. And maybe that just that we're just so much more visual now because we're always on social media and everything. But I think there's always been a hunger and a lot of people who kind of are on the down low and kept it secret. I knew guys when I was living in France. I lived. I worked in an advertising agency in Paris for about 11 years. And I'm sorry, excuse me. There goes my dog. Somebody's at the door.

So, hello.

Live video folks. You gotta love it. So anyhow, yeah, just go back to the part where.

Start back where you're saying you were.

In France when I was. There was. There was a time when I was living in France where the husband of one of my friends was into. You know what they call it in France? They call them bon desiners. Bon desiner is like comic strips. But you know, what we call graphic novels now or comic books, you know, are not just for kids over there. And it's completely an adult genre. And it's become more and more. It's become more and more of a thing here too. And I think that's because people just really are hungry for visuals and pictures that tell stories. And so like they say a picture.

Is worth a thousand words.

Well, you know what? I was going to say that a picture is worth a thousand words, but in a way it's worth even more because you couldn't read a thousand words in a nanosecond.

But the picture that tells us that is worth that thousand words is instantly consumed. It goes straight to your heart, it goes straight through. It cuts through all kinds of resistance, especially when it tells an emotional kind of story. And that's what I love about drawing cartoons. I talk about it a little bit in this, in the, in this course that I teach called Real Fast Doodle Profits. But it's very much like when you see especially a hand drawn image, it completely derails, diffuses everybody's resistance to like, oh, they're trying to sell me something or oh, you know, what, what are they up to? People just love to look at doodles and things like that. So.

It'S a secret weapon and it's really silly to kind of expect words alone to carry the, you know, to carry your entire message. It's, it's not necessary when you should be using everything at your disposal. Especially today when people are just, you know, visuals and things like video and things like that are just, are just so. You're, you're up against so much competition for people's attention. So I guess that. I don't know if that answers your question, but to me, when I worked with an art director in the ad business, we always understood that the words and the visuals were inextricably linked. You couldn't have one without the other. That one without the other would only tell half the story. And that at the same time you wanted the visuals to carry the story well enough so that if you turned off the sound and just watched the pictures, you kind of get what was going on. And if you listen to only the script and you didn't see the pictures, you'd kind of get what was going on. But together it was like more than the sum of its parts, that was the way it would work. Those were the ads that worked the best.

I like that. When I was learning to design and video editing, photography and all this, I. One of the things that really stands out is with design and logos, do it in black and white first. If you can sell it in black and white, only then do you add the color to it.

That's a really good point. That's a really good point because also a lot of times it's going to appear in black and white. So it needs to stand that, that shows that it. That the content means something. That it that it that it that it. That it has meaning on its own without all the other embellishment going on. I think that's really, that's really important.

Yeah. Another, another thing recently is squares. Everything now is square online. Whether it's an oval or a square image. And so many people have rectangular looking logos. It's like, oh, what do you think of it? It looks great. But it's not going to work in 95% of things nowadays. When 50 years ago it was all billboard, it made more sense. So don't just copy someone for the sake of copying them. Think about who is this going to. And like, your point, the audience who's listening to this, who's watching the audience.

And also the medium. I mean, that's a very good point because we used to love it when we could do billboards and things like that. That would take into account how people are going to be consuming the content. Now you're going to be consuming it on mobile and on Instagram. And that's why when you talk about square. But there would always be things like when you. Now you've seen them a million times with the billboards that say, you know, for like a condo complex or like, like some kind of community that says if you lived here, you'd be home by now. You know, like that you're driving by that on the freeway. It was funny the first time you saw it because it took into account the fact that they know the people who are seeing this are sitting in there in their cars on a long commute, you know, wishing that they had. Wishing that their commute was over. So it's, it's, it's helpful to think about. Okay, how are people going to be seeing this? So, so if you're going to be putting out a blog post or if you're putting something on Facebook, like a Facebook ad, or you're going to be putting something on Instag, not just the format, but like, where are they in their experience right now? How are they willing, how are they looking to consume things? That's why long copy ads on Facebook work so well, what we call story ads. Because people on Facebook are there for a while. They're not there to kind of like just check things out and zip away. They're there, they're willing to sit.

They're hanging out. It's social.

Exactly. It's social. And they're willing to, if your copy is good enough, if your story is interesting enough, they'll be interested to read the whole story. Whereas, you know, on, on Instagram, even though you can write a long story, that's not what they're there for. They're there to scroll through the pictures and be inspired by the pictures. So you want to make sure that you, that you're, that your picture is interesting enough and that your entire feed is something that people want to look at. So it's super important to be taken to account Both your audience and the. And the medium.

But, yeah, a lot of people don't notice that anymore. There. I'm. The one I'm thinking of is, what. What should I do? Short post or long post? And it's like, do both. You need to know your audience to the billboard point. I'm not gonna say the name because they're not a healthy food, but it was like, you want to enjoy these six. Six exits away. Mile later, only five more, four more, three more in. The last one was Turn here now.

Yeah, exactly.

I was like, that is awesome. Now, granted, you need to take out six billboards, but.

No, but it. But it basically. It basically says, we see you on the freeway driving. You know, it's like a little relationship. It takes into account the idea that the proximity of where you are and where they are and that they know where you are. When those things are. When those things. When you're going by those, it's always helpful to be as close to your customer as you can and acknowledge them for the situation that you think that they're in. And today it's really. It's a lot easier to kind of get more information. For better, for worse, it's easier to know more information about the people that you're talking to.

What they like, they put it out there for you. All you got to do is look at one of the profiles. It tells you 90%. The other one tells you another 8%. And it's. You can also generate the billboards online. So if you go on LinkedIn and you know people are on their lunch break and you say, hey, I'm going live tonight on Facebook, once you get home after you had dinner, because you know that's where they're going to be hanging out. And then on Twitter or something, you do a tweet going, hey, I know, I know. You're probably finishing up that meeting. Don't forget to go over here. If you actually take a second and think about who you're talking to and where you're doing, these are the new billboards. So maybe it's not on the freeway, but we have them on every single social.

Well, now you've got the social freeway. It's really meeting people where they are. And that doesn't change. The only thing that's changed is the where they are is going to be. There's all kinds of new places for them to be right now. And that's. That's. That's the difference. But the principle remains the same. As much as you can, you know, Try not to try. Try to be as. As personal as you can. And there's a lot of. There's a lot of creative ways to do that.

Now, that's a great point. So we've covered the text, we've covered the image. Let's talk about speaking. How is speaking helped you in your business?

Oh, speaking is amazing. I think speaking is something that everybody should do that well. I say that I love it. I know a lot of people. I've heard that people fear death less than public speaking. I don't know why. I'm. I guess maybe from all the way you're in advertising, where you have to get up and present your ideas in front of people. You get. You kind of. I was. I used to be nervous about it, and now it's easy. So it's something you get used to. So the more you do it, the better you. The better you are. But speaking is amazing because it allows you to. It puts you in a position of authority that is. That is kind of implicit in the role that you're playing. If I'm up on stage and you're sitting and listening to me, you're sending yourself a message before I even open my mouth that I must be somebody worth listening to or why would you be sitting there and me up there on stage? So right away, you're in a. You're in a. You've positioned yourself as an expert or an authority. But it also gives you a chance to really, you know, demonstrate your expertise and connect with. With people in. In. In a. In real life, which today has become kind of, in a way, sort of almost a novelty. I mean, I've just. I was telling a friend of mine, they're like, well, where are your clients? I'm like, they're all over the place. Well, how do you meet them? Well, I meet them online, and I'm like. I realized that I was working with people, that there was not a single person. No, there's one person right now that I'm working with that I have actually ever been in the same room with. I have a lot of clients, and I feel like I know them all pretty well, but only one of them have I ever actually met in person and actually shaken hands. And so to be actually. To have a situation today where you're actually in the same room with someone is really. It's very impactful because they're not used to it. Now, having said that, that's the only way of speaking we can be doing something like this, where we're doing a podcast or doing a webinar. And that's good too. It gives you a longer time to, to tell your story, to explain what you're, what you're doing and why people should care about what you've got to say, what you've got to sell and how you can. So, and it gives you a chance to, to communicate with them on different levels. You're speaking, maybe you're showing them slides, they're seeing you, they're having, they're having an audible, an auditory and visual and somewhat kinesthetic experience because you're physically in the same place. So you, you're, you're touching them in all of these different ways that people, that those are the three different learning styles. And you know, everybody's got some of all of it, but, but most people are stronger in one than in the other two. And speaking allows you to really touch all of those different types. So for me it's been helpful because I'm using more, I use a lot of visuals and what I do, whether I'm talking about writing copy or whether I'm talking about how to use visuals and hand drawn images in your internal communications, in your company, all of those things lend themselves very well to.

Live speaking and live demonstration and things like workshops. That's the other thing that's great about speaking is that you, is that you can get the audience involved and get them doing things. You can see them doing things, you can interact with them, they can interact with each other and you're facilitating. It's just a whole, it's just a million great things about it.

Yeah, it's fun to bridge that gap because nowadays I'm not going to say the name because she's listening right over there. But there's these devices in your home. We'll call them Big Brother just for sake of argument and don't need that thing activating. But I remember back in the day it was like, don't say it, don't say too much of anything in the phone. Big Brother's listening. You know, don't, don't get in cars with strangers now. It's like, hey, big brother, I need a ride. Can you have a stranger at my house in nine minutes?

Yeah. Well, now people are writing all kinds of stuff and marketing stuff for that, for that.

Person who shall not be named. Because if you, if you mention her name, she'll, she'll start talking in my house too. My husband swears that he doesn't understand why we have a surveillance device in our house that, that we that we set up on purpose for people, for companies to be able to listen to our conversations.

But I saw something recently to the point though it used to be going to the movies, listening to the, you know, remember radio shows?

Oh, sure.

Radio shows, going to the movies, all this stuff. It was a escape from reality. Now reality is. Escape from what the new reality is.

That's absolutely true. But as, but at the same time, I think people haven't changed as much as all that because the most popular podcasts, as you probably know, are these storytelling ones like lore and things like that. People are hungry for that kind of, you know, for stories. And that's never going to go away. That's been around since the Stone Age and Aristotle and hieroglyphs. Yeah, exactly. Cave paintings. We talk about that a lot in my, in my doodle course too. Like, you know, that, that before language, people told stories in pictures. And those pictures still tell a story, but it's all about. It comes down to storytelling. No matter how you're doing it, if you're telling a story in words only.

That'S going to create a picture in someone's mind. That's what a story really is. They see the story unfolding in their mind. You're activating their imagination. A picture is just one, one step closer to that imagination than the words are. Where they have to, where they have to. You know, they have to participate and form that picture in their mind. So it's always, you're actually always talking in pictures. If you're doing it right. It's just a question of how well are you evoking that picture in someone's mind?

Absolutely love that. One of my favorite quotes is from Einstein and he said imagination is more important than intelligence.

Absolutely. And being able to, being able to inspire someone's imagination is more important than being able to convince them with a logical argument. Because when you convince them of the logical argument, you say one thing and they go, oh, I guess I agree with that. But when you get them to imagine something, now they've entered into this thing with you, they're not participating and they're, they're filling in the blanks. Now they own that. And when somebody co owns that, that's one of the things I love to talk about when I talk about, you know, doodling in the office. When you're whiteboarding stuff together, you have co ownership with the people who are, who you're drawing. You're drawing out your ideas. Maybe a chart, maybe a metaphor, like an iceberg with the tip of the iceberg on top of the water or a mountain or a bridge or a caterpillar turning into a butterfly or something like that.

To symbolize something that's going on in your company. And everybody adds.

Their own contribution to that picture.

Now everybody shares that vision together and it's not me. I said this to you and now you have to say yes or no and you have no ownership of that idea. You've just been told this is what you're supposed to do. And there's just not a lot of buy in, you know, so when you get people to imagine stuff together now there's a shared vision. So.

And everybody's on the same page moving forward.

Exactly. But even when I talk about a shared vision, we're talking about seeing, we're talking about seeing in your mind's eye. And then again I, you can't get away from it. You're always talking about something visual. And the fact is that I think in this presentation I did at 99U, Adobe 99U recently I presented, you know, we did a workshop but before we started the workshop portion I presented a bunch of, bunch of facts which I don't have in front of me. But there's a, there's, there's something about.

There'S more of your brain that's taken up with visual imagery and visual processing.

Sort of power potential than anything else, including language. So that's, that's, you know, your brain is all is set to, to understand visual images and pictures and make sense of them. So the more you can, whether, whether you're drawing a picture yourself or showing a photograph or telling a story, that, that makes people form a picture in their mind. The more visual you can be in the way you tell a story. The more, the more buy in you're going to get and the more, the more attention you're going to be able to keep, get and keep.

That's awesome. I'm so glad you've been talking about that because a lot of people don't realize it and they just take the easy way. And if you always take the easy way, you're always going to get the same results. And that's not what I want for everyone here. So I got one more question for you before we go to the imperfect action round.

Okay.

And I've been calling it the expert authority roller coaster because I keep this pretty, you know, it's been pretty easy. Fair.

Okay. Yeah, I know it's super easy and.

I came up with a couple of questions like do you believe in conspiracy Theories and also if you could talk to someone else for the last time, who would it be? Stuff like that. But I want to use my question on this for what we were talking about beforehand. Okay, Tell us more about the commercial. You said you didn't think I'd remember and I did. And then you started singing it and feel free to sing it again.

Oh, that's so funny. Well, this is, that's that I'm a little bit disappointed because I was, I was hoping to get, to get nailed.

You want a conspiracy?

Maybe later, but yeah, no, so. So the commercial that I thought that Mario is too young to remember, but he says he remembers it, so maybe he just, maybe he's just amazingly well preserved. Is, is. When back in the, in the early 90s, my agency got a new account. It was Hanes Apparel. So it was part of. SARA LEE I don't know why cake and underwear were in the same.

I was just gonna say apparel. Yeah, I don't really remember much more than underwear, but did not know they were part of.

SARAH RHEE Hanes makes a lot of things. Hanes makes underwear, obviously shirts, but also T shirts and sweatshirts and socks and a bunch of other things. And they make stuff for kids, they make stuff for women, and they, and yeah, people didn't know that. So that was one of the reasons why they wanted a new campaign. And so the other problem was that, you know, they were very. Hanes was considered kind of like a really. This is what I told you at the beginning of our talk together. I've always been really interested in doing advertising for parody products, for products that really don't have any intrinsic difference from something else. I mean, some of them are slightly better in one way or another, quality wise. But basically Hanes and Fruit of the Loom and BVD and a few other major brands were pretty much considered, perceived as pretty much all the same. You go to Walmart, you buy three to a pack white underwear for your kids or for your husband, and that's it, you know, and nobody really thought of Hanes as being any different from those other brands. So I was like, what can we do to, you know, to make this more of a. More fun and exciting and also to show people that Hanes is more than just white underwear. At the same time, in their wisdom, the company Sara Lee Haynes had. I don't know if you've heard of something called Q scores. I don't know if they even still do them, but at the time, something called a Q score was a big deal. And they basically did surveys about who are the most famous, best liked celebrities around. And they basically hired.

A sort of potpourri of people who had nothing to do with each other to be like sort of spokespeople for Haynes. One of them, famously was Michael Jordan, who at the time was not as famous as he became later. But there was also Nancy Lopez, the golfer, Phylicia Rashad, who played the wife on the Cosby show, which was a big deal at the time, and a few other sports figures. Boomer Esiason, Dan Marino, I think, was one. And there were a couple of other actors, and I mean, really a completely unrelated group of people. Some were sports people, some were actors, some were football, some were not. Football, golf. I mean, what. And I just. I'm like, what are we supposed to do with all these people? And they wanted them all in the commercial. I'm like, all right, I don't really see how this is, how this is going to work. But my. My partner and I came up with an idea that's like, well, what if we just show. We just. We just act like these people are just on their off hours, doing their thing, living with their families, just being people hanging out, feeling good in their skin, feeling good in their clothes, and we'll just. And we'll sprinkle them in among other people who aren't famous, just actors, just, you know, people in the commercial that it's basically like, look, everybody's wearing all this stuff and anybody wants to really feel good just kind of about themselves, about their bodies, about, you know, about being together and everything like that will just. It's. They're all people, just like us. And if you notice that this is a famous person in the commercial, great. And if not, it might just be like, oh, this is a good looking, good looking guy who happens to be wearing our product. So that's when. And we wanted to make a. We wanted to make a tagline and a whole campaign about the idea of this is not the Hanes that you've experienced. This is not the Hanes you thought you knew. And so that's why that's where we came up with the tagline, wait till we get our hands on you. Which is like, obviously a play on the word with hands. And we had it, and it had a big jingle. But the tagline Sting went, here I go, I'm gonna sing again. Wait till we get our hands on you. So that became a big, big thing. We did a whole song about it that went on for, you know, we had a 60 second commercial and a 30 second one. But we also had one that showed all of these different people that was basically like, look at all these different people wearing the clothes and the socks and the underwear and the shirts and the sweatshirts and all the things. But then we had one that was just for women that, that we did the same song instead of a more feminine way. For some, for the, for the, for the line called Hanes Her Way where they showed, you know, underwear and bras and things like that. And we did one that was just with kids that had kids singing the song and jumping in puddles and having pillow fights and doing fun things. You know, just basically being natural. Everybody being naturally natural, best selves, feeling, feeling comfortable in the, in their own skin. And that was what the, that was what the campaign was about. And it did incredibly well. I mean, the brand is still way ahead of the, of their competitors now, but at the time it really, most of the time you wouldn't. Back in the day, you really couldn't tell. Oh, we ran a new ad campaign and we think it's responsible for some growth in market share, but we can't be sure. But this was so pronounced and marked from before. And after we started running that campaign, they kept going with it. They only stopped running some version of it even a couple of years ago. So it ran for like 15, 20 years. And every year, at least while I was working on it, they increased their sales by like 20%. So it was a big, big deal. And so they went from basically just being the same as everybody else to being seen as a more premium, more fun to wear. Not something you have to wear, but something that you really want to wear. Brand. Oh yeah, we had models. Carol Alt was a big deal at the time. We had like supermodels in there too.

The impression I got from it and what I remember was the relatability. And like we were talking about knowing who you're speaking to one on one because. Cause it was like, hey, this is for everyone, like you're saying. Cause I do remember Michael Jordan being on it. And I was like, well, if he's wearing it, you know, if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me kind of thing.

Right? That was kind of. I mean, now it doesn't seem like that big a deal, but at the time, to take a big celebrity like him and to put him in a, in a situation where we're not showing him playing basketball and we're not showing him being famous, we're Showing him just hanging around at home with his dad or his wife, you know, doing laundry and doing normal human things. That was at the time very unusual and like you say, relatable.

You got that pattern interrupt in there.

Yeah, but the idea of like this, when these people are kicking back, being themselves, this is what they're wearing. And then when you're kicking back being yourself, this is what you're wearing. So I don't dare to compare that campaign to Nike, which is such a huge world class thing and is still going on, but that they're doing a similar, they did a similar thing when they started saying just do it. The idea was, you know, from, from the Champions to you, when you're just getting yourself out of bed to jog in the morning, you all have, we all have to fight past that resistance and all the excuses as to why we don't want to work out and why and push past the pain. And yes, it's hard to run that last mile, but, you know, just do it. That grit is what makes champions and you have some of that in you too. And that was what Nike stood for. So in a way we were doing the same kind of thing with Hanes where it was like, you know, whether you're, whether you're a big important celebrity and a sports star or you're just a, you know, just a regular person, you want to feel good when you're, when you're relaxing with your, with your family. And that's what, that's what these, that's what the campaign was about.

I remember their stuff and I'm going to add an audible in here because I'm curious. The two major soft drink companies, they were doing a lot of jingles too, was like that the thing in the early 90s.

Because it was a thing from until the early 90s, I would say, because, and I've noticed it recently, that it's come back a lot, a little bit. I was watching TV just today and I was thinking, you know, I've seen a lot more parodies like what I did with Hot Stuff, a lot more of those lately. But jingles used to be a much bigger deal. And, and I've always loved music and, and I've always, I've done.

You remember it easier.

A lot of my commercials are jingles for that reason. And then after that, like in the 2000s, it really began to fall out of favor and look kind of old fashioned and kind of hokey, so people stopped doing it. But I always thought that's really stupid because One of the things that you want to have happen, like, you pay money for every time your commercial runs on tv. And I don't know about you, but like you say, you do remember it easier. And when I hear something that I really like, it plays over and over in your head, even after the commercial is not running. So it's basically like you're getting free plays. You're getting.

I can still hear it right now. And I could tell you where I was at with what device I was playing it on. But do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

Oh, yeah.

And they put little CDs in the case, and I just. And it was. It was some crazy small one, too. It wasn't even a full cd, but I was just. I mean, I think about that, and there's dozens and dozens of stuff.

When I started speaking into the microphone, it was at a young age, and I would record TV shows and commentate on them, and I would. Same thing like you, and very visual. And I just. I remember this stuff. So when you're mentioning it, I'm not gonna give away how old I was at the time. It wasn't a neg. It wasn't a negative value. But now that we're talking about it, I'm going, holy smokes. I'm thinking of boom, boom, boom, boom. Like everything was. Yeah. When you can get people to remember it and it's not how good your ad is, but when other people start saying the ad for you, you've won.

Well, yeah. In the early. In the early 80s, mid-80s, one of the other things that used to happen with that, besides the jingles, was if you could really hit, like, a catchphrase, like when Wendy's came out with that catchphrase, where's the beef with the two older ladies? With the ladies, yeah. The thing is, though, you didn't. Those. They. They couldn't know when they came out with that, that that was going to become a thing. But before that, in the early. In the 70s, Alka Seltzer was very well known for coming up with things that people would end up saying over and over and over again. Like there was a commercial where it was like, I can't believe I ate the whole thing. And somebody said that, like, three or four different times. And I guess so many people feel that way, and then they take an Alka Seltzer because it's like, oh, my God, I ate too much. But I can't believe I ate the whole thing. Was. Was something that everybody said and try it you'll like it was another. Was another one from Alka Seltzer. And then of course, they had their jingle of plop plop fizz fizz. Plop, plop fizz fizz. Oh, what a relief it is. They haven't run that for years, but I still remember it. And now if they just go plop, plop fizz fizz, you end up. You end up, like, finishing it.

So, you know, jingles, we never, we never forgot it.

Yeah, exactly. No, you don't forget it. So I think, I think it's coming back. I think, because I think that that'd.

Be an interesting experiment to have, is have all the companies do it and see how much of their market share increases just from reactivating the people's part of the brain, the reticular activating system that is already familiar with it.

Right? They're already familiar with it. And also, like I said, like, you know, once you hear something that is, that is catchy, it sticks with you in a way that is just. I mean, maybe I'm. Maybe I'm more susceptible to that than other people, but I still can sing jingles from stuff that I like. I sat in front of the TV when I was a kid. I could sing you the whole thing, you know, And I just. So I think it's a real missed opportunity when companies go away from those kinds of things just because they're not in fashion anymore. Because most people really, you know, they can't help it. They can't help remembering your brand when that happens.

So, yeah, I've told my clients, you know, if you have something that works, don't just think you always need something new. Because, like, we're talking about now, think about all the people that, you know, they have kids and grandkids, they could basically indoctrinate with this stuff now. And I mean, it's second nature for them. You don't need a whole new campaign every 20 years. It's good again, basically. It sounds like.

Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah.

So we're going to thank the sponsor and we're going to come back for the imperfect actual round. This is the fun part. 60 second rapid fire questions. But appreciate everything you've shared.

Awesome.

Why every business needs a book, including yours. Would you like to save five plus hours with every prospect? Generate more leads and profit in your business? Now visit businessbookchecklist.com and learn how you can implement this in your business today. All right, Lisa, are you ready to take imperfect action?

I'm ready to take Imperfect action.

All right, I got a couple of Questions for you. 60 second answers, rapid fire. Okay, first one. What is the shortest path to the cash?

What is the shortest path to the cash?

Understand your customer and basically give them what they want. Not what you want, not what you think they want, but what you know that they want, what they've told you that they want.

Very good. What is the biggest problem you see your prospects making? What's the fastest way they can fix it?

The biggest problem I see my prospects making is exactly what we just said. Talking, talking too much about themselves and their process and what they've got and what their product does and all that stuff. Nobody cares. Talk more about your customer and what they care about, what their problem is. Even if you think they already know and change and go through your email and anything that else. You write and count how many times you see the word I, we and how many times you see the word you.

And increase the number of views and get rid of as many we's and I's as possible and you'll probably be on the road to doing the right thing.

Love that. That's real good.

What is the best way to maximize customer lifetime value?

Maximizing customer lifetime value has to do with loyalty. And so the more you can get the customer to feel connected to you and connected to each other, to other people who also buy your product, the best. That's, that's, that's, that's the best way. And so you always need to be thinking about, now that you've, now if your customer buys something from you, what's the next thing they might need? Because every problem that you solve now creates a new problem, this solution. Now now that they fixed that, they're not going to be thinking, well, now, now, now, now what? Now what happens? So I've heard people do something, what they call like a bonus sandwich. So if you're going to create bonuses for your, for your products, for example, think about like, what are they going to need like before or after they, they consume your product? Or especially after, like, okay, now that you've got this, you may need this other thing that's going to be bolted onto it. It's either like a, like an upsell, like, do you want fries with that? Or like, what's the next thing that you're going to need now that you've done this, like Matt? So basically again, it all goes to, comes back to putting yourself in the shoes of your customer, using your imagination and saying, if I were in this situation and I had solved this problem or I'd use this product. What would I want next? And then give them that.

Very good. All right, last thing. What is a book you would recommend? What book has made the biggest impact in your life?

Oh my God, that's so hard. I read so much. But I think that a book that I would recommend, and this is more for people who are creators and writers and artists than. I mean, everybody talks about this book, so I won't be the first person to recommend it. But the War of Art Is by Steven Pressfield is a great book. It's easy to read, it's a fast read and it helps you get past the resistance of creating. Whether it's copywriting or whether you're writing a screenplay, which is something I used to do, or you're looking to do something else creative or even something in your business, it helps you do battle with those demons. The other one I have got, I'm going to slip in another one. There's a book that I love that's really a lot of fun to read by. The cartoonist who draws Dilbert, his name is Scott, Scott Adams. He also writes self help books. He does a bunch of other things too. But the self help book that I like the best that he's written is called how to Fail at Almost Everything and Still Win Big. And it's a fantastic book that talks about it tells the story of his life and how he created Dilbert and everything, but also gives some really good advice, one of which is.

The idea, the difference between goals and systems. And he says that systems are better than goals. So if you're, if you're, if you're going to like try to lose 50 pounds, instead of saying I want to lose 50 pounds, come up with a system that says I'm going to drink eight glasses of water a day and go to the gym three times a week and cut out wine or something and then show up every day and do your system and eventually you'll get your goal rather than just saying, you know, having this big impossible looking thing out that you keep not hitting and feeling bad about yourself about. So that's just one of the things in that book that I think is really super, super.

I like that because the systems are going to create the habit where the goal might be a finite one time thing and then.

Exactly, exactly. And he says, he says that, you know, if you, if you, if you focus on a goal until you reach that goal, you are in a constant state of pre success failure. And that, and that makes you feel Bad. And that makes you feel less, it makes you less likely to take the kinds of actions and have the kinds of habits that are going to help you reach your goals. Whereas if you can say to yourself, I showed up today, I put on my running shoes, I drank my water and I, you know, I didn't have that second glass of wine, you can do that. You have control over that. And you can, you can, you, that you can win that day and say, I won because I did my, I did my system. And then eventually, if you do that enough times, it will, it will get you what you want or at least closer to what you want than just focusing on the goal and hoping that, that you know, just by sheer willpower or by, you know, some kind of like, osmosis, you're not think system that you're going to somehow reach it just by thinking about it and keep it.

Because once you hit it, you can always go back to it. I once heard that giving back into a bad habit isn't giving into a bad habit. No, missing a good habit isn't missing a good habit, it's creating a bad habit. I was like, ah, crap. Once I get to this level, it doesn't just automatically stay the rest of my life. I got to keep at it.

Right? Exactly. And so, and so when you focus on systems, you don't, you don't, you don't feel cheated. When you, when you've reached your goal, then you have to keep working at it. So that's just one of the things in that book. There are a lot of other ones too, but that's the, that's the thing that, and it's a lot of fun to read. He's a funny guy. So it's a, it's a, it's a fun, it's a fun, easy read. So I think you'll enjoy it.

Great recommendations. Thank you very much. So where should people go to learn more?

More? Okay, well, if you want to learn more about copywriting and things like that, you just join me on my, on my website@Lisa Rothstein.com. i have a lot of blog posts there that you can. And then you can read there or join me on social media. If you'd like to talk, if you'd like to learn more about how to use doodling in your business, then you want to go to check out a free training called realfast doodleprofits.com. you'll be able to sit, you'll be able to enjoy free training and that actually interactive workshop where you'll actually teach yourself how to how to draw how to draw emotions right right there on the training. That's pretty cool. And so those, those are a couple of places where you can, where you can learn more about me.

Excellent. Thank you so much, Lisa. I know I've learned a lot and I know that Expert Authority World has two too. So thank you for your time and we look forward to talking with you again. Why Every Business Needs a Book, Including Yours Would you like to save five plus hours with every prospect, generate more leads and profit in your business? Now visit businessbookchecklist.com and learn how you can implement this in your business today. Hey, thanks for listening to today's episode. I hope you got a lot out of it. I know I sure did. If you haven't done so already, I invite you to subscribe to the show. And also be sure to check out eainterviews.com for complete show notes, the full interview video experience, links to the resources we mentioned, and more. Have a blessed day and I'll see you tomorrow.