0247 | The Whirlpool Effect: Inspire The Flow That Boosts Company Performance with Author & CEO Claire Chandler

This is Claire Chandler with TalentBoost and clairechandler.net and you are listening to EA interviews.

EA interviews episode 247, inspiration, transformation, success stories and the imperfect action round. Seven days a week. Join Mario Ficcini for today's expert authority effect interview. Have you ever wanted to scale your business? Do you want to have a great core team? Do you want to have the best people in the business but you're not sure where to find them or better yet, how to keep them? I'm excited to be talking about the whirlpool effect and that's why I have Claire Chandler on today's episode. We're going to be talking about all of this and more right after we thank our sponsor. Every business needs a book, including yours. Visit freebusinessbookpublishingcourse.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction lead and profit generating a business book in eight weeks. Once again, that's free businessbook publishingcourse.com Claire Chandler, everybody. How are you feeling, Claire?

I am doing fantastic. How are you today?

I'm having a great day.

Good.

I want to talk to you about the whirlpool effect. Why is it important for business owners?

Yeah, let's do that. You know, the whirlpool effect is absolutely critical if you want to be a leader that people actually want to follow rather than follow out of some sort of Stockholm syndrome or some other kind of intimidation factor. So, yeah, the whirlpool effect is. It's not an illusion and it's not a fad. It is absolutely the way to get the right people onto your team, to stay on your team and enthusiastically contribute to your mission.

And what I'm hearing is you're talking about positional leadership where the only real reason someone's following you is because you're their boss, you're their superior. You're just. That's just the way it happened to fall. It's not because they necessarily like you, trust you, respect you or anything. It's just the respecting authority.

Yeah. And it's. And it's the big dividing line. Right. A lot of leaders carry that title but don't really wear that mantle. And you know, their, their people look at them as a means to a paycheck rather than a deep connection to a mission that they deeply believe in. So. So yeah, there is a huge dividing line between real leaders and pretend leaders.

I like that. And I'm glad we're going to be talking about the proper way to do it because I Don't think anyone wants an organization. I know I sure as heck don't. Where it's just like you're here because that's all it is, is a paycheck. And I flat out tell people that from the beginning. I'm like, this is not just another job. This isn't a transaction. It's not a one off project.

You know what I mean? We're doing this long term. If you don't see that or share that, it may not be a good fit. What's your take on it? And.

That was not intended, but dive right into the whirlpool effect, shall we? Yes, please.

So the concept of the whirlpool effect actually started out as a childhood memory. So I'm based in New Jersey, born and raised in New Jersey. You're probably going to ask me about my lack of accent. We can go there if there's time. But you know, our summers were hot and humid and sultry and all of that. And it always seemed to be that the most popular kid on the block was the one with the swimming pool in the backyard. So, you know, spoiler alert, that wasn't me. We didn't have a pool, but a couple of my friends did. So every summer, all the neighborhood kids would gather and that's where we would spend a hot summer afternoon. And you know, we bring out all the games, right? The Marco Polo and, and you know, all those other pool games. But invariably somebody in the pool at some point in the day would shout out whirlpool. And immediately we all knew what that meant. It meant whatever else we were doing, we would just start to follow each other in a circle. And after a couple of laps, you would pick up your feet and you could be carried along with the floor flow that you created. And when you think about it, that's what real, genuine, effective leadership looks like, right? I have a simple message. My people immediately attach meaning to that. They can see what success looks like and they contribute their whole hands, heads and hearts to making that a reality. So that's really what the whirlpool effect, both in the backyard swimming pool and in reality, in leadership needs to look like.

I like both of those situations, but I'm going to do my darndest to stay on the leadership and the entrepreneurship side of this. But you got my wheels spinning. Admittedly, I grew up on the water, love the water, and I'll just leave it at that for now.

There you go.

So my question for you is, you got a great company, you got people, maybe They're a team. Maybe they're not. What if you don't have the whirlpool effect? How do you create it?

Oh, it's great, Great question. And anybody, any company, any team, any leader at any point in their career can create the whirlpool effect. And the biggest myth I think that's out there is some leaders look at others and say, well, they are naturally charismatic. They naturally, when they speak, others listen, they fall in line, and. And they just follow them. And the reality is, any leader, regardless of your past, regardless of your skill set, can become that type of influential and inspirational leader. And the first place you have to start is with clarity. You have to become crystal clear on two things. One, why are you in business to begin with, right? If you are the top dog in a company? And the, then it's more than just why are you specifically in that leadership position? But it's what is that business.

Around to accomplish what is truly your mission? If you're a leader a little bit farther down the hierarchy, it really is about getting crystal clear on why were you put in that leadership role in the first place. And a lot of people stopped questioning that. They just sort of rose up the ladder and they said, well, this was the next logical step. I'm now a leader of others, a leader of a bigger division. And they don't stop and ask themselves and kind of check themselves on, why am I in this particular leadership role at this particular time? So that's clarity number one. And clarity number two is becoming super, super self aware of your natural talents. How you tend to lead, what drives you, what are some of your internal value systems and motivators, because they're different for everybody. And how do you tend to show up and use those in the workplace? If you look at the most charismatic, quote, unquote, influential leaders, they are super self aware. We're not talking the snake charmers of the world who just seem to be charismatic. We're talking the real charismatic leaders who can generate a following of people who know, like, and trust them. So those two points of clarity, what is my clarity of mission and how can I become more self aware as a person in the way that I show up every day, Are absolutely fundamental to creating the whirlpool effect.

I want to dive deeper on that second point. What are the qualities to get to the point where you are naturally charismatic and you're not the snake charmer? And, you know, how do you do that?

Oh, great. You know what? It's a great question. Um, so self Awareness is step one, right? Because. And you talk to performance management experts and they say if we don't, if we don't measure it, we can't move it. It's the same when you're talking about trying to get to a higher level of self awareness as an individual, as a leader, as a manager, as, you know, whatever the role is in your company. But we're focused on leaders, right? So the first step is to become really, really self aware of what are you naturally talented at? Again, that is different for everybody. And it starts with how do you process the world around you? Right. How much of a big picture thinker are you versus a. I see a problem and I immediately see 20 different options of potential solutions or kind of that third type of. Yeah, I see the big picture sort of. Yeah, I can see where we've got some practical approaches to getting our work done, but really my first focus is how does this impact my people? So self awareness is the first key, but once we have that, it's what do we do with that? Right? So anybody can become charismatic and not be confused with a snake charmer by becoming authentic to who they really are. And it's not a one size fits all, right? If you look at the great leaders that you tend to admire, there are certain qualities that they possess, but they don't all walk and talk and think and speak in the exact same way. What they do do, however, is embrace their unique style, their unique value system, their unique strengths, and they fully lean into those traits and those characteristics. They don't try to be somebody else. You know, leaders make a big mistake of saying, oh well, you know, leadership is a role that I play. No, it's not. If you think it's a role you play, it's a costume you put on in the morning and you take it off again at night when no one's watching. You're doing it wrong. Right? So authenticity is that second piece that is fundamental. Once you get to that place where you are really aware of the strengths and your blind spots and what you bring to the table and what you don't, and then really leaning into your unique style and just, you know, letting your freak flag fly, there's nothing wrong with that, especially as a leader.

So it's really about being the right person and not just trying to act a certain way or do what everyone expects of you. And you could even argue the point. It's not just what you're talented at, but what you're great at. Because you might be talented at a Dozen different things, but maybe 10 of them you shouldn't even be doing.

Oh, that's such a cool observation. And you are absolutely right. If you sit there and I do this exercise with some leaders that I work with, and I say, if you inventory all the things that you do, all the things you could do, and then start to categorize them into what are the things you're really, really good at, and then from there, you know, that subset gets smaller and smaller. And now when you look at all the things that you know that, that you're great at, what are the things that not only are you great at, but you love doing? Right. You kind of lose all track of time when you're in that. That mode or that zone or doing that thing or with those people or, you know, in that category. So, yeah, absolutely. That's a. That's a great observation.

If someone's in that position.

What could they do to narrow it down? Should it be super obvious or should it be like, well, I kind of like these five.

But I'm not sure which three it should be, or is it a blatantly clear. You may have just never thought about it in the business realm before?

Yeah, you know, for some it's very obvious. You know, for some, they can kind of short circuit that whole exercise and say, I can tell you the top three things that, you know, in an ideal world, as a leader, if I could only get to do these things, you know, during the day, I'd be, you know, happy as a clam.

That's a great position to be in. We don't all have that immediate clarity, Right. There are others who have to go through that, that full exercise and keep narrowing it, narrowing it down. And I liken it to keeping a food diary. Right. Every time you go to the doctor with some. Some nebul system, you know, that has to do with anything internal, they go, well, have you kept a food diary? It's like, yeah, you know what? You're not the first one to say that. And I really should do that, but, you know, I just. I just can't get started. It's similar to that, right? You want to inventory the things that you do, the things that you like, the things that you're good at, you know, retrospectively, the things that you enjoyed in the past, the things that, you know, other people remarked on. But if you're stuck, if you're saying, you know, I still have this huge list of things I could love, I could be really good at, I'm not really sure Make A list of 10 people who know you really well, people you've worked with, people you've worked for, people who've worked for you, people in your, in your personal life, people in your community, and go to them and say, what are the things that you know me for as a, as a genius or as, you know, something that I really love to do? And when you get that kind of market research back, that's going to help you narrow down that field considerably as well. So, you know, some of us excel at spending that time in our own heads and saying, yeah, I'm going to come up the list and I'm going to keep narrowing it down because I'm super self aware and I can do all this reflection. And heck, we all talk to ourselves, right? Admitted. Others of us do need that sounding board. We do need that additional filter of other people kind of, you know, getting back into our circle and saying, what am I not seeing here? Are there other things that should go on this list? Are there things that I'm trying to force into this list that, you know, you know me sometimes even better than I know myself? A spouse is really good for this exercise too, by the way, as we know. You know, what are some of the things that I just hit out of the park all the time and when you see me doing them, my face lights up. Those are the types of things you want to figure out and find.

Now, you had said what someone's talented at, I had observed what they're great at. But here's like a real deep, deep dive of the deep dive. What if they're great at it but they don't like it?

Yeah.

I think we all have stuff we're great at and it's like, yeah, I might be great at it, but I have no care. I don't want to do this every day.

Yeah. So here's where that filter becomes really powerful. Right. Because if you're great at 10 things but eight of them, you don't particularly enjoy.

Either, get rid of them now. So let's kind of narrow this down to the professional sphere. Right. I'm a leader. I've made my list. I'm down to 10 that I'm really, really good at. You know, I interviewed people in my inner circle who know like and trust me, and these are the top 10 that I'm really, really good at.

You want to still narrow that down? If you're a leader and you say, okay, of the eight that I really don't like to do, how many of them are critical to achieving my mission. You may be able to, you know, get rid of two right off the bat. Now you're down to six. Just hypothetically, right now you're down to six. Maybe there are other people on your team who are also great at those things and happen to love doing them. So you know that self awareness kind of extends to your team and really getting to know the people around you, you know, and it distinguishes between getting the best talent, getting superstars, and getting the right talent. Right? Because that hypothetical pile of six things that you have agreed you're great at but you don't really like, but they stand on the list because they're mission critical. Now you look at your extended team and you say, who can I put around me to complement what we know we have to do, but that I don't want to have to do myself because it's just not something that gives me positive energy. So it's all these filters that we want to apply as we, as we go forward.

There's some great expert authority insight and I appreciate you for sharing that because one of the things I love about asking the questions and learning this and getting the info for expert authority world is you get the right answers. But it reminds me of this book. When you give a mouse a cookie, it's like, oh, I need to do this, but what about that? But what about that? But what about that? And it's like it just keeps going down. But that's what you need to do, is niche it down to a point and get that hyper clear. There's been times I've done stuff for my business and it's like, oh man, I nailed it. And like a week later I'm like, ah, but did I? And the more you get down there, it really gives you that clarity. And I will add confidence to be able to present in a way and show up in a way where it's like, I don't know what you're doing, but I can tell there's something there. And then you can be like, well, frankly, I don't know what I'm doing, but yes, there is something there. So thank you for sharing that.

Yeah, and let me, let me just jump on something you just said, because confidence is key. One of the things that I work on with leaders when I work with them one on one and even in groups, is to get them to a level of replicable confidence. I had to slow down when I said that because I always trip over the word replicable. Try to say it fast. You can't do it. But it's really key. It is absolutely fundamental. If you are going to be a leader who can create the whirlpool effect, you have to be confident. And again, we are talking dividing lines here. There's a huge difference between being confident and being arrogant, between being confident and faking it until you make it. Being confident and being cocky. Right. Confidence means you can walk with this strut because you've got purpose. You know where you're going, you know you've got the right team around you, you're heading in the right direction, and you truly believe in your destination and that horizon that you're striving for. So confidence, to me, is one of those absolutely fundamental.

Attributes of an effective leader. And again, everybody can acquire it. For some, it just takes a little bit more time, a little bit more effort and energy than others.

And we got to go one more layer now that you mentioned three or four key words that a lot of people interchange. I like the confidence. And one of my favorite things to share with people, and I just came up with this. But it. To surmise it, it's basically. It's one thing to want it, it's another thing to know you have it and you don't even need to talk about it. Yeah, there's a lot of people that, you know, whatever, and, you know, sometimes it's just fun to be like, you know what? I don't even need to justify this. I don't. You know what I mean? It's like, you just know. Yeah, but you also said the cocky and arrogant side and fake it till you make it. So are you saying if someone's starting off or that no one is as far along as they want to be? Because I know people at every level and even some of the highest performers, when I get them on the show or talk to them personally, we're having dinner, whatever, they unveil all this stuff. It's like, holy crap, how the heck did you get to where you're at, truthfully? So it's always interesting to me. It's like, isn't everyone faking it? Because I don't think anyone ever truly makes it. Because the second you do, it's like everything starts unraveling. But I do get what you're saying where it's like, don't try to be too over. Tell me your thoughts on this. I think you know where I'm going with this. But those are three key words that are vastly different but so closely related.

They're hugely different. And, you know, one of the things you just mentioned is people who are first starting out, you know, you're, you're kind of implying, and I, and I think rightly so, that people who are first starting out really need to be careful not to delude themselves that they have confidence. Right. And there's a difference between confidence that you've quote unquote made it. And I agree with you, that's sort of an elusive target to strive for because once you make it, you should be restless enough to say, okay, that's, that wasn't the top of the mountain, that was just the top of this next peak. What's next beyond that?

You should still get a little nervous before you go live on the episode.

You should. What a great observation there. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely self aware.

And that's the thing. But that self awareness, you know, you joke about that, but that's 100% right. Whether you're starting out, you're in your first leadership role or in your, or in your final home stretch farewell tour before you're going to retire, confidence starts with that self awareness. If you're first starting out in business or you have your first leadership role again, you have to embrace leadership not as a role that you play, but as a commitment that you make. Right. So this, this crowd that fakes it till they make it are the same people who look at leadership as the trappings that come with that. You know, I know people in the past who were so quick to label themselves leaders and really what they were aspiring to was the corner office, the leather chair and the power that they could wield. That's not real leadership and that's not confidence. That's authority and that's influence. But it's misused, right? And it's, and it's manipulation.

Getting very, very self aware of, you know, again, what you're great at, what you love to do and where you want to go with those things. If that could be kind of put into a Venn diagram, what's that sweet spot? Right. What am I great at? What do I really love to do and what's going to help me move forward as a person, as a leader, as a business, as a team. Those are the things that you should, you know, absolutely focus on.

And that's a great distinction. I was smiling because.

While I don't agree with the authoritative and manipulative and all that.

I have nothing against nice leather executive chairs.

Hey, neither do I. We like comfort, right? But there's a difference between, yes, you know, the stature or it helps support your Passion.

I'm here now. Everyone listen. It's meeting time.

Exactly.

Oh, gosh.

Exactly.

Why don't you just go back in your car? We're doing fine without you.

Right?

I'm going to behave now because I have all kinds of stories from when I wasn't owning the company and I was working for it.

So, you know, but those experiences, and we don't have to share them now, we could set up a separate episode just on, you know, bad bosses or horrible bosses or the sequel to that movie. But working under and working alongside and working within view of really bad bosses, toxic bosses, ineffective bosses, is as helpful as working for and working, you know, within the sphere of really amazing leaders. Right. Because again, you know, I mentioned earlier, you want to be self aware of your strengths, but you also want to be aware of your blind spots. And those bosses that we would never want to emulate teach us exactly that. They give us much more tangible targets to avoid as we develop, as we grow, as we aspire to higher levels of accountability as leaders. So I don't think any of us would want to go back and work for those horrible bosses. But I've certainly had them, I've certainly encountered them and I'm grateful for the experience. In hindsight, glad they're behind me, but, you know, grateful for the experience because it really does help to put in stark relief the difference between the leaders that I want to emulate, learn from and work with, and the leaders that I don't.

Again, another great distinction. And I appreciate you for sharing all of this because you made me think of one of them. It's just like I, I want to raise people up. The whole reason I'm doing this and you know, God gave me the vision for the show is to exponentially elevate the identity of humanity. And I think I'll just share it. It's not hor. It's not. But I always look to make people feel better no matter what it is, whether it's business or not. And the one that just keeps ringing, I got dozens. We could do a whole two day training. But one of them was I was working at a giant retail store.

And I was vacuuming and you know, I bumped into the metal floor wherever the, you know, stuff where the DVDs that they sell are at the bottom. And you know, just like when you're vacuuming anything, you're going to hit what's around it. That's why you have floorboards in the house. And he was like, you better cut that out. Those racks are worth more than you are.

Oh.

Now I'm curious. How much longer after that comment did you continue working for him?

Interesting you say that. I never, I never really put two and two together because there were other times when I was helping a customer with DVDs and I was really trying to help her. Couldn't find it in stockroom. Screwed everything up. Even though the system and the computer showed it, they weren't on the shelf. They were in the wrong spot. And I was helping her maybe 6 minutes versus 4.5. And again, a different day. You need to. I'm kneeled down, looking, trying to help her, and he walks up and says, you're taking too much time with her. Other people need her help. She's done.

Wow.

And I'm like. And I was like, I am so sorry, miss. I I. She's like, you're great. I don't know why he's here. And it's just interesting to me because the whole. Every morning we'd have a. All right, let's talk about customer loyalty and how to increase customer loyalty. Everyone do your little nuggets or buttons or pins or whatever. And I'm just like, you're lucky. What's going on in my head will stay in a script or a comedy routine and not in real life. Because you'd be getting smacked over the head with this vacuum at the least. You don't treat people like that.

And what's amazing about that is that not only was the culture toxic, but it was in direct conflict with what they advertised. Right. The fastest way to lose the right people is to have a brand promise. Yeah, come on board with us. We think of customers first and we treat our employees great. And it's an open door policy, and we want, you know, an entrepreneurial mindset. Every job description I've ever seen in corporate puts that bullet on there that we want an entrepreneurial mindset. We want people who think out of the box. And what is the first thing you do when you go into that, you know, that, that corporate environment, just as an example. And you think, you know, creatively and you think off the page of your job description, you get slapped right back into the little box that they want you to play in. And so, you know, if, if your culture is very buttoned up and it's really not about customers first, it's about, you know, bottom line profits or whatever. And I realize that doesn't make a sexy mission statement, but I'm saying that to be extreme, right? When there is a disconnect between the culture that you promise and the culture that you deliver, not only will you drive good people out the door, you will keep the ones that you wanted to get rid of. And it's, you know, it's part of the reason that cultures get toxic to begin with. I always say that the biggest impact on a culture is the behavior of its leaders. And just that one story you shared, actually two examples of presumably the same guy, you know, perpetuating this, you know, this. This negative impact on your culture. You know, every time you. I'm sure they posted these corporate values on the wall that the customer comes first and employees are our, you know, greatest asset. And all of this other stuff, that's not what you remember about that experience. You remember that this guy. I censored myself. You're welcome. You know, was leading, quote, unquote, the company. That is a perfect example of somebody who does not accept leadership as a commitment to do better and to elevate the lives of the people around him. That is a perfect example of a leader who just plays the role and not well. Yeah.

And there was other people who were more deserving of it. And I'm not gonna say the company name, but if you see the blue, the yellow, and the pink that are in this shot, and remove the pink.

There was a lot of good people, but it was just like there was a few. And he wasn't the only one. It was just like. It was. It was hilarious. But to your point of how long did you stay after that? I probably did not realize it at the time, and I've never thought about it, but now that you mention it, because Black Friday is the biggest day of the year, and this, you know, Christmas time is the most busiest season for an electronics retailer.

Not much, maybe. I was actually hoping I wouldn't make past the seasonal help somehow. I did.

I cared. I always cared. And I'm sure they saw that. But it was probably three, four months later. I just walked in one day. It was actually one of my greatest memories because I was getting ready to go on the Waverunner, and I was like, this is cutting into my fun time. I don't need to be here. I had my first business at this time. I literally only was working there because I like DVDs and movies.

And I walked in one day and I was like, in my mind at the time, it was, I don't want to be here anymore. It's taking up too much of my life. And there's better stuff I could be doing, but it's Interesting you say that because I'm sure subconsciously my spirit and heart, like day after day was just getting rattled and rattled and rattled. And I probably wasn't as self aware at the time, but I remember being there in the meeting in the morning and there's 20 people around and I went to my. Not inventory manager. The manager of who department. That's what it's called. It's been a few years. And I was like, just looking around, she's like, you okay? I go, I'm going to quit today. What do I need to do is do, Do I tell you? Do I tell.

Glenn? Maybe at the time I go, is there paperwork? What do I do? And she didn't even know what to do because it was. It turned into this big thing. And then the meeting was starting and by then everyone's going and they stopped the meeting to be like, okay, clearly everyone knows now this, that. And I was just like the whole time I'm like, well, if I get out of here by 9:30, I can get home by 10:30 and I can be on the lake by. I love. I was like, just, so I'm done. Yeah, and. But there's a lot of good there, I will say that. A lot of nice people. But there was some real.

Interesting characters who, I don't know how they had a higher level position and they just acted like they owned the entire chain, not just the store or not just the area. It was just like, who, who is you?

You had a double shot of Wheaties this morning. Hey.

Wow.

You know, your story though is so, it's so interesting. And it's. It, you know, that night that you were running the vacuum and got completely dressed down over, you know, abusing the DVD rack, the poor DVD rack, You know, it's one of those symptoms, right? And you even said, you know, I probably stayed another three, four months. I'll go you one better. When I finally left corporate, it was after a bunch of those symptoms started to pile up. So if I had asked myself that same question. So there was a day I was walking down the hall, true story. This actually happened. And my boss pulled me aside and he said, you really should think about toning down your walk.

True story. I said, what? What do you mean? He goes, it's really bouncy. And you, you just, you, you exude this happiness and it's freaking out some of the folks. And I worked in human resources at the time, some of whom, you know, had total Stockholm syndrome. And he said, I had, you know, I really Tone down my wall because it's too happy and it's freaking some people out. They think I'm, you know, I'm like, I know something they don't. I'm thinking, I guess I do, I must have some internal reserve of happiness and maybe they don't, they don't have access to it and too happy.

Yeah.

So if I told you that story and you had asked me, you know, how, how long after that did I, did I leave? It was probably another year. And the, you know, the longer you stay in an environment that doesn't serve you, the longer you. And I'm not going to say it was toxic, you know, I'm not going to equate it to, you know, a bad marriage. But the analogy is similar in that the longer you stay, the longer you convince yourself, well, I've invested all this time and I'm on this certain track and I've put in all these years and I've got people around me that I really care about and if I left, what would I have.

It took me a while. And looking back, I look back at that particular situation, you know, that particular evening that I was walking down the hall and told to tone down my walk, you know.

Yeah, well, there's a character flaw.

Right. And here's, and that's really what, you know, in hindsight stood out. That was one of the examples of why I never really fit in corporate. I made a very successful career in corporate. I did very well performance wise and compensation and all of those things. But I always knew deep down I didn't really fit the corporate model. Right. And so those were some of the symptoms and like your story with, you know, being, being completely ridiculed for, for bumping into a DVD rack.

Oh, and much more, you know, important issues.

Well, and those, those are things that, you know, start to pile up and now that you look back at them, those are the things that, you know, you remember very clearly and you say, yeah, that guy was a jerk, or that culture was hypocritical or, you know, it's amazing that that company continues to stand. You know, the bigger the company.

The easier it is for them to absorb some of that toxicity. But, you know, the small companies really need to watch out for that. And that's why I said earlier, even the bad leaders, the bad cultures, the bad businesses provide us a learning opportunity because as we grow or we go out on our own, you know, you went out on your own and I suspect you never stopped smiling because you saw, you know, when you finally kind of broke free of that, of that force field. Right. Of working for somebody else. You kind of look back and you said, thanks for the lessons, thanks for the experience. But now I've got much more clarity on where I want to go, who I want to be and who I don't want to be. And gosh, you can breathe so much more freely when you have that clarity and that freedom, don't you?

For sure. And I'd say you did the same thing. And the one class in college I remembered doing, actually going to and doing stuff in was econ. And I remember the terms.

Well, let's just go with one of them that I'm thinking of underemployed. We could have been doing so much more at the time, and we were just here. So we created our own higher level position and help more people.

That's awesome. Absolutely.

I think there's a lot of people like that. You know, I know that most people leave for lack of appreciation, not because of the paycheck. And it's unfortunate because I always do everything I can to uplift, you know, clients, prospects, my own team and everything. And it's like sometimes people might just be dealing with stuff that it's like you don't even know about. And if they don't share it, how do you know? But you should never be treating people, even if they did a horrible job, you don't have to condone the person. Just be like, hey, let's talk about the quality of your work.

And part.

Of being a leader who even has the capacity to create the whirlpool effect? You have to create the right environment. Right. You can't have a swimming pool that's full of electric eels and then still expect to inspire the whirlpool effect. Right.

You know, one heck of a show.

It would be, it would be interesting to see it from the.

Let's see who can swim fastest from end to end.

Exactly.

Who wants to go first? The sad thing is there's so many people that are craving attention. They're like, for how much? $1,000. Yeah, let's do it.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, it's, that's such a great point because there's an analogy to business. Right. There can be a completely toxic culture that tolerates bad behavior. And therefore that's what gets repeated, elevates really bad managers because they get bottom line results. And so that's who gets advanced. When I'm an employee farther down the hierarchy and I see that that is what gets Rewarded. I have a decision to make, right? Either I become what they reward or I get the heck out of there before it changes me. And what you're left with over time, if you continue to do that, is that toxic swimming pool full of electric eels, because nobody else can survive in that water. You can't throw a goldfish in the middle of that pool.

Right. You can't throw a clownfish. I was probably a clownfish, really, in that analogy, let's be honest. But, you know, my sarcasm, I think, was a little bit too, you know, above the threshold of tolerance and in corporate America. But, you know, going back to your comment about, you know, people may be going through something that we don't really know about unless they tell us. If we as leaders and we, as, you know, business cultures don't create an environment where, you know, I'm not suggesting, you know, you allow people to just come in and bring all of their dirty laundry and all of their, you know, their home drama in there, but you do want to create an environment where people can thrive. And the bad leaders, the leaders who are truly not actually leaders, are creating an environment where you have to have survival instincts. How is that going to be a sustainable business where you have a steady flow of talent coming in the door and saying, I don't even care what my job description is. I want to be part of this company. I want to be part of this culture, and I want to be in your, you know, your orbit as a leader. That's what you want to attract. You don't want to attract people that are just, you know, sharks and, you know, barracudas and all of this other. I'm just trying to come up with all these swimming pool analogies, but you know what I'm saying, You know, if you truly want to be a leader who leaves a lasting impact and a legacy, not just in the business world, but for your family, for your community, for the people who know you, wouldn't you rather be somebody who creates an environment and inspires the whirlpool effect than somebody who manages through manipulation and intimidation and pays people just to stay?

Yeah, you definitely don't want them there. That's one thing I've learned.

The number one thing, whether it's prospects or team, is the qualifications. Who are you letting in the door in the first place? That's on you. Oh, all these people don't know what's going on. The last 99 people didn't know what's going on. What's the common denominator There, Bob, you know, and I remember it's reminding me of something, you know, what if we pay for all this training and do they go to the competitor and it's like, well, what if we don't train them and they stay?

That's right.

And as far as the whirlpool in the swimming pool with the eels.

Nothing says you couldn't show up in a personal luxury submarine, sell the other seven tickets and drive around and just wave at everything going on. I mean, might be against company policy, but if it's your company, rewrite the policy. Right?

Yeah, yeah.

So I appreciate everything you're saying. We're gonna. I got one more question for you. And we're gonna come back and do the imperfect action round. And it is.

The wheel of whatever.

Oh, come on. There we go.

I love props, man.

Now you can see it.

Yeah.

It's not that scary, is it?

No.

All right, so my question for you is, which company do you believe should be turned around the most?

You looking for a brand name or are you looking for just a general description?

Yeah, I was aiming for brand. Brand name. I mean, is there someone right now that stands out that you're just like this company.

Or maybe an industry if you don't want to go to that point?

You know, I'm not going to name any names, but I do have a couple of characteristics that I've seen out in the. Out in the business that were prospective clients that I. That I kind of walked away from because they just didn't get it. 2020 obviously was a bit of an anomaly, a very unique year. And you know, it's going to be years before we really truly understand the full scope and the impact of what Covid has had on business, on ways of working, et cetera. I think the businesses that are going to have the toughest time turning around are not so much the ones that were caught flat footed by a global pandemic, because I think everybody was to some extent. It's the ones who, when they had to radically and very immediately shift the way they were working, primarily go from office based to remote based. The ones and I've seen this and they never got themselves kind of out from under this, this model. The ones with, and I'm going to use air quotes when I say their leadership team.

Looking at the shift to remote work with skepticism that their people left unsupervised were truly being productive. I saw leadership teams again in air quotes in some companies who, when they were forced to pivot to remote work rather than Embracing that new reality and looking at ways to get more creative, more innovative, more efficient, more effective, and taking the extra effort to stay connected to their employees. They sat in their own offices, in their own bubbles, and they said, I'm not convinced they're doing the work that they would have been doing in the office. So I really question whether this is a sustainable model. And you're going to see those same companies, at the earliest opportunity, go right back to forcing a Monday through Friday, 9 to 5 in the office, kind of a. Kind of a workforce, and they're going to drive themselves into the ground. So.

I've seen that in a couple of industries. I've seen that in a couple of management business models, and I saw the cracks in their foundation before COVID had even come up. These were companies that had been contemplating shifting to a more flexible work arrangement but couldn't get out of their own way. And they delayed and they delayed and they delayed because they couldn't figure out how to.

Still control all of the activities if they gave people flexibility. And then Covid came in, and they use that as justification to say, you see, I'm not convinced that they're still working as hard as we need them to and that we can get to where we're going. So it's those companies that didn't just look at this as. They didn't look at what Covid did to us as an opportunity to get better and to be better. They saw this Covid from the mentality of a victim that, here we go. We already couldn't get enough out of our people, and now they're gonna goof off. Those companies are not gonna be around, and if they are, they're not gonna be ones you want to work with or for.

Yeah, it's interesting because I've been telling people for over a decade to do more stuff online, automate it, use systems, use software, do all this stuff. I mean, there's nothing that's being done that hasn't been around 10, 15, 20 years.

Absolutely.

The companies are changing. There's vastly more people accepting it. But when people are like, do you want to get on a zoom call? I'm like, no, the phone works fine. Like, we're not filming something. We're not doing a presentation. We're just talking about a couple of things. They're like, really? You don't mind? What did we do the last decade? Think about it. Like, I think we all got enough electronics. But it's just astonishing because it's one of the things I. You know with marketing and helping companies and the hundreds of clients we've personally worked with, it's like, it's interesting to see the behind the scenes because everyone looks good up front and I'm glad that some of them are adopting it, adapting to it. But yeah, I'm curious what the final percentage will be that just go right back to the way things were and then just blame it on just picks. I could spin the wheel of whatever and be like here's 58 things you get to choose from. Pick one there. Oh yeah, must have been them. So thank you for your insight on that. We're going to thank our sponsor and come back for the imperfect action run. You've heard me say every business needs a book, including yours. And it's true. And that's why you should visit freebusinessbookpublishingcourse.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. But you know what, don't take my word for it. Take it from a few of my authors like Lori, I went from having.

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I am absolutely ready. You are going to find no one more imperfect than me. Fire away.

60 second answers. Three rapid fire questions. The first one is what is the pet fire Fastest Path to the profits.

Fastest path is clarity. No question. It doesn't even take me 60 seconds. You got to get crystal clear on why you're in business in the first place, why you're in your leadership role, and act accordingly.

Excellent. Number two, what is the biggest problem you see your prospects making and the fastest way for them to fix it?

You know, I think the biggest problem that most leaders and most businesses make is.

Is taking their mission for granted, quite honestly. I don't mean to harp on that, but it is so foundational. So, you know, some. Some companies just sort of either assume that they've got that part nailed or they assume it's not that important that it be articulated. So, you know, it's the fastest thing to. To fix because you just need to reconnect with why you're in business in the first place and what that horizon is that you're striving for. Nail that down and you'd be amazed at how much easier your decisions get.

Very good. Number three, what is the best way to maximize customer lifetime value?

Don't treat them like a customer. Treat them like a relationship that you want to continue to nurture. You know, you want to surpass expectations, and that does not always translate into, well, I've got to give them more for less. But you want to build upon the relationship that you've created, really deliver not just what they've asked for, but. But things that they cannot see around the corner. That's really where you create lifetime value.

What books would you recommend to Expert Authority World?

Other than my own, I would recommend anything by the brilliant Brene Brown. I most recently read Dare to Lead. And for anyone in a leadership role, whether it's your first role or your 50th leadership role, go and read that book.

Excellent. And where would you like people to learn more?

They can reach me@clairechandler.net I have a couple of other websites, but that is the best one. Stop Shop to connect with me, learn more about me, and set up some time to chat if they're so inclined.

I love that I tell everyone a single call to action. Good for you. Good for you. Seriously awesome. Claire, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Thank you. It's been great.

All right, Expert Authority World. We have another great episode here today. I'll see you tomorrow. Have a great day. God bless. You're already the expert, but have you transformed your expertise into a tangible asset that will generate and qualify leads while increasing profit for you 24? 7? And if so, how well are you promoting it? With the Expert Authority Effect publishing method, it's easier and faster than ever. Visit freebusinessbookpublishingcourse.com today to get to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction, lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. Visit freebusinessbookpublishingcourse.com to get started. Now. Once again, that's free. Businessbook publishingcourse.com hey, thanks for listening to today's episode. I hope you got a lot out of it. I know I sure did. If you haven't done so already, I invite you to subscribe to the show and also be sure to check out eainterviews.com for complete show notes, the full interview, video experience, links to the resources we mentioned, and more. Have a blessed day and I'll see you tomorrow.