0261: Growth Marketing: Developing And Executing Best-In-Class Marketing and eCommerce Strategies With Right Side Up Founder Tyler Elliston

This is Tyler Elliston. You can find me@rightsideup.com and you're listening to EA Interviews.

EA Interviews, episode 261, inspiration, transformation, success stories and the Imperfect Action Round. Seven days a week, join Mario Ficcini for today's expert authority effect Interview marketing. One of my favorite things to talk about why it's so vitally important to you and your business. You might be loving marketing like I do and helping people launch stuff or you might absolutely hate it.

Do you have a new book coming up and you just don't want to talk about it and you're going to put out a notification that says, hey, I have a new book the day of with no pre planning. Not a good idea. But what do you do when you feel like you've been failed by outside agencies?

That's why I'm excited to have Tyler on the show. Tyler Ellison. He's been a consultant for Google, Doordash, Stitch, Sephora. He knows what he's talking about. We're going to be diving into all of these things and help you with your business right after we thank our sponsor. Every business needs a book, including yours. Visit freebusinessbookpublishingcourse.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction, lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. Once again, that's free business book publishing course.

Here he is, ladies and gentlemen, Tyler Ellison. Tyler, how are you feeling today?

Pretty well, thanks for having me.

Oh, I'm excited to dive right in because I know you've helped so many people with the marketing and it's so vitally important. But why do you feel like you were failed by the outside agencies?

Yes, good question. I think so. There's a couple layers to that answer. One is the talent level. So I worked with agencies where I just felt like the quality of the people I was working with weren't at the level that I wanted. And then sometimes it was more structural. So like you know, signing 12 month contracts when you know, I wasn't sure if something was going to work and I might test something for a month and if it doesn't work I'd want to do something else but was locked in, you know, percentage of spend.

Payments sometimes makes sense, other times it really didn't. So I just, I found more success with marketing when I was either doing it myself or, you know, or building in house teams to do it.

What would you say for the people who, you know, I was joking a little bit in the intro because I find there's really Two types of people. One is like us, we love marketing and promoting stuff. And, you know, I love helping my author clients with their business book campaigns. But there's other people who are.

I don't want to touch it. I want more business, I want more revenue. I want all these things. I want to be at that point where I started the business for, but I don't want to talk about it or annoy people. How do you help us get past that?

Yeah, well, I think, you know, the good news is I think the most important and most valuable marketing is actually a great product. So if you have a great product that people fundamentally love, in most cases that means they'll talk about it. And so a lot of times your customers will do it for you. So that's the good part of the answer. The negative part of the answer is that if you don't do marketing, you're almost certainly leaving a lot of opportunity on the table. And so I would just advocate to sort of either get some help externally or.

You know, find a way to do it yourself in a way that you feel like is authentic to your personality and business, but still, still promoting this product or solution that you, you know, deeply, deeply believe in.

Can you take us through your process, what you're doing with these big name companies? And also some of the people we may not have heard of?

Yeah, so the way that we operate is we're kind of like a collective of marketers across a wide variety of industries and skill sets. And so we'll talk to companies about what kind of, you know, what kind of challenges they're having specific to customer acquisition. And we're kind of identifying, okay, in this situation, we think that this particular skill set, this particular seniority would help you get to the next level. And then we're providing somebody from our collective that has that expertise. And so, you know, sometimes the scope of those engagements is advertising on Facebook or Google, sometimes it's advertising on podcasts, sometimes it's email marketing to increase lifetime value. So the scope is really varied, you know, across, across our clients. But the one consistent part is that we're solving a marketing problem, usually around acquiring customers, sometimes around lifetime value. And then we're sort of staffing it.

With a very specialized person that's going to build a tailored solution rather than sort of applying a really generic playbook.

When most people. Would you say most of your clients are looking. You said a client acquisition, but would you say most of your clients are looking for increased sales, profit, or is it really anything else?

Yeah, Most of them, I would say more than half of our clients are sort of backed by venture capital. They're kind of like trying to grow as fast as they can. And so usually it's around growth first. Certainly in recent years, we've seen more, you know, more importance put on. On profitable customer acquisition. You know, certainly years ago it was growth even at the expense of profitability. That is a lot. You know, that's quite rare at this point. But, but growth is the primary. The primary challenge we're helping them solve.

Now, when you're saying growth at the expense of profitability. Yeah, I've heard seen companies do this, and it's always been questionable because, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the premise we might lose a little money here or a lot, but we're setting ourselves up down the road?

Yes. Yeah. So I would say sort of, you know, one level of this is saying, well, you know, over a customer's lifetime, they're going to be worth, let's say, $200 to us, even though in the first month or the first three months, they're only going to pay us 50. So the question is, you know, are you willing to pay $25 for that customer or that sale or $50, you know, front that whole three months? Or, you know, some would say, well, let's just front 190.

You know, because we'll get 10, we'll wait it out, we'll get referrals, and then know this doesn't really happen much anymore. But at one time it was even like, hey, you know, we'll pay 300 because we're doing product development. And we know that a year from now, though, they won't be worth 200, they'll be worth a thousand. So, you know, you can, you can sort of play a lot of, you know, a lot of games to sort of justify, you know, acquiring that customer, you know, grabbing as much sort of real estate in the market as possible. But at really unattractive economics.

That's a very polite way of saying it.

Yeah. Yes.

Unattractive economics. Yes, I like that. So I think one of the traps I've seen is if you say, well, let's lose the money here, we'll make it up down the road. Well, is that 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, 10, whatever the case is? And do you feel it sets a precedent to just do it again? Like, if you go short this year and then you go three years from now, five years from now? Well, when do you. How much of a profit Are you making. Because maybe in year five or six, you just go the second you get. Turn it around. I kind of equate it to, like, the people who jump from a car lease to the next one to the next one. It's like, when do you get to enjoy.

Yes.

The profitability or the free time where it goes, okay, it's higher here. It'll, it will go down. But if there's too short of a time period, period, you're just constantly going from it. I mean, you have to be economically viable.

Yes.

Every. Every year, I would say.

Yeah, well, that's a, that's a prudent perspective.

Depending on the percentage. Depending on the percentage, maybe you go, we'll take less of it. But to be going backwards.

Yes. Yeah. And that, and that certainly is the prevailing sentiment now. You know, I don't think, I don't think any of the clients we're working with today, you know, would, would disagree with that at all. You know, the, the other sort of downside of doing that. Yes. You don't get to sort of enjoy the, you know, the margins, but it can also, it can also cause you to really avoid looking at, like, real, real questions about product, market fit. Like, you know, are you solving a real problem? Do you have a real solution to that? And I think a lot of companies, you know, call it 10, 15 years ago, we'll kind of avoid asking themselves that hard question.

By just saying, oh, well, we're growing, we're growing, we're growing what customers are hiring us. But obviously, if, you know, if it's not profitable, it doesn't, you know, it's not going to matter long term.

What's the first thing that you take someone through when they're coming on board with you, and how long are you traditionally working with them for?

Yeah, so the first thing we're doing with them, you know, once they hire us, really depends a lot on the scope. Usually we're looking at what they've done in the past from a customer acquisition standpoint. So assuming they're hiring us to, you know, help them get more sales, we're looking at, you know, how they've, how they've executed their Facebook ads or Google Ads or SEO. So we're starting with an audit, typically, and then we're making recommendations or sort of identifying what's the gap between where they're at and what's best in class, and then sort of sequencing. Okay. Of these 10 things, these 10 steps that you need to take to get to best in class, here are the three that we think have the highest likelihood of getting you there.

Most quickly, I think before we ever start working with them. We really are trying to evaluate that product market fit because a lot of. A lot of people, and I say this as somebody who started a company that failed. This was my problem. I thought I had a marketing problem and that my product was great. In reality, I had a product problem. What I was actually selling was not, you know, was not. Was not good enough. And we do sometimes see companies or individuals come to us and ask for marketing help. And, you know, we kind of view it as an issue of integrity to say, well, look, based on what we're hearing, like, we really don't, you know, we don't think this is a marketing problem. And so that's really the first step that we go through.

Do you say you have a product problem?

Yes, yes.

Some of those are uncomfortable, but honestly, you know, we've had those kinds of conversations, and then, you know, six months, 12 months later, they'll come back and say, you know, you were right. We did. We tweaked this. You know, now does it make sense? We're like, yeah, now. Now it makes sense.

And that's so invaluable. And I'm glad you are doing it that way, because they could go another two, three years, four years, five years, maybe even. Maybe even longer, and just kept doing it the wrong way.

Totally. And it's.

What's that cost?

Yeah, a ton. A ton. And it says it sets us up for failure as their partner. Right. You know, it's very hard for. For marketing to look really good if. If. If a. If the core product or the core solution is not strong. And so, you know, we want to make sure we're set up for success.

And. And so that's sort of a prerequisite for. For us as well.

I want to ask you.

How did you get into this? Why did you choose marketing? And what's the backstory behind all your success?

That's a good question. You know, I've always been an entrepreneur. I mean, I've, you know, started. Started a company in high school, started coming in college. You know, just always, always entrepreneurial marketing in particular. You know, I mentioned that I had a failed startup in my background. You know, I started that company, did that for two and a half years. It ended up failing. And at that point, I was kind of like, gosh, you know, so who hires like, a generalist that wants to do entrepreneurship? And so I felt like I needed to sort of pick A functional area to kind of hang my hat on. And so I was like, okay, well, what have I most enjoyed? What do I think I'm. What do I think I'm good at? And despite the fact that I had just.

Failed in this company where I thought it was a marketing problem, I still said, you know, I think marketing is my strength. I think that's where I know the most. And so that's kind of double down on that skill set. And then, you know, took a number. You know, next startup, I ran marketing for them and that got acquired, and then that company that acquired us got acquired and then just sort of jumped from company to company running, you know, running customer acquisition.

So it really is your passion, and I love that you found the positive despite the negative.

Totally. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, that failure was the best learning experience of my career and ultimately has been sort of the seed for everything I'm doing now, you know? You know, like, our. Our vision for Right side Up is to help very expressly, you know, people that are in that situation that I was in. Right. The founder who has a customer acquisition problem and. And needs marketing help, and they need somebody to be honest enough with them to tell them if they think it's really a product problem instead of a marketing problem. That's exactly what I needed. So in a lot of ways, Right side Up is kind of coming full circle and just building what I wish had in that experience.

What would you say to someone who is on the fence about trying something new that you've mentioned? You had mentioned some of the Facebook ads and different things like that, out of all the things in the world of marketing, because I don't know about you, but it seems endless.

What do you say to someone who's fearful of doing it because they were slighted in the past? Yeah, let me rephrase that. Not slighted. They got screwed in the past or burnt.

Yeah, I think so. A few thoughts on that one. You know, obviously the partner matters a lot. You know, who's helping you, who's shepherding it through it. Shepherding you through it. I would always advocate to go find, even if it's not like, you know, there's not self promotion, even if it's a friend who knows about it or a coach or somebody that has that kind of job at a company and they can just give you unbiased recommendations or help to do that. I would always advocate for experimentation and keeping the stakes low. Facebook advertising, search advertising. For most businesses, you can get a read on if they're working for you without a huge amount of spend. And so, you know, I think I would. I would always recommend trying it. If you have reason to believe that the problem was the execution rather than the channel, then keep, Keep giving it a go. That's not to suggest, you know, if somebody feels like it was done well and it just didn't work, then by all means, you know, try, try something different.

Otherwise, you can spend a lot of money on Facebook and Google without seeing a lot of results.

Yeah, no one wants to do that. But you do have to test it. You know, I've told people for years you want to do at least a month, ideally five or six weeks of just, you know, data. Get the data so you can make the most educated decision and everything. And if you're not willing to invest what you're asking other people to invest in your product, figuring it out, maybe that's the problem.

Yes, yes, correct. And I would. And, you know, you talked about data, sort of gathering, exploration. I would double down on that. You know, with, with the initial testing. It really is, you know, the goal of that ought to be to understand what's possible. We see a lot of companies that, you know, the first two weeks, three weeks, it doesn't. A channel does not perform for them, and so they turn it off. But a lot of times it's about learning and optimizing and evolving the way that you're approaching the channel. So like paid search, for example, you know, you might be bidding on 30 keywords, and so you might, you might spend, I don't know, say, $1,000 on these keywords. And at the end of that time period, you know, it might be that 75% of the keywords don't work. And so when you look at the total spend and the total impact, it looks like it doesn't work. But when you drill into those 25% of the keywords that do work, you know, those, Those economics might. Might really work. And if you just turn off the 75%, then you've got something that's really working for you. So. So a lot of times it's just about that sort of pruning of, you know, either audiences or keywords, whatever it may be, for that particular channel.

That's a great point, because.

It might not be one size fits all, but even if five of them are popping, you know, throw all the money at those five.

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

And that. So speaking of the.

Oh, please, go ahead. Well, that's exactly the kind of thing we talk about. With ongoing optimization of channels, it rarely is performing well when you first start doing it.

So here's the magic question. How do you, like, if you want to quit in weeks two or three, and maybe you need to get to the tipping point in week four and a half, you don't want to come up too short, but how do you discern? Okay, it really isn't working. I need to try something drastically different versus, you know, in weeks, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, maybe even 9 or 10. How do you discern? Should I go further or I'm already going further, how much further to figure it out? Like when. When do you know it's not working at all? Two months, three months, maybe three weeks. And you're just throwing a lot of money at it. Nothing's clicking or.

That is the magic question. And, you know, there's sort of a straightforward answer to that and a complicated one. The straightforward answer is, you know, if you're looking for a. If you're looking for a cost per order, let's say, of $10.

You know, and you spend $100 and you get no sales, that's probably evidence enough that, you know it's not going to work. You know, the likelihood that it will work and you just got an unlucky, you know, first. First, like 10 shots at it, you know, is very, very low.

On the other hand, if. If you're, you know, call it within. Within 50% of where you want to be. You know, if you want to be at $10 and you're at $20, something like that, you know, that's some. At that point, I would say, okay, let's keep testing. There's so many different inputs that you can use. In most digital channels, like with Facebook, it's like, okay, well, maybe we keep going, but maybe we test new creative, you know, or if it's paid search, it's like, okay, maybe we keep going, but maybe we turn off these keywords and turn on those keywords. And so, you know, if you're getting some. If you're getting some response, it's just not good enough, then I would typically recommend, you know, changing some of the variables. If it's not working at all, then I turn it off.

So after you've changed the variables, if you do another week or two, and it's like, okay, I've done everything I can short of getting help with it. Don't go spend tens of thousands of dollars, just, oh, maybe it's.

Book publishing versus book publishers. I see people that just add an S onto Every keyword they have, it's like your ad might be trash switch. Like you said, switch the creative or maybe the audience. You know, you could be, it could be a great ad, great copy, great everything. Wrong audience.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, I mean, you can keep churning through the variables. I would say that, you know, it's rare that we see, it's rare that we see companies spend, you know, more than call it $10,000 without like real signal that a channel can work for them. So certainly to anyone out there, I would treat that as a, as a general cap.

That's the litmus tusk.

Yeah, I mean there are certainly exceptions. You know, sometimes like in a B2B context, if you're, you know, if a client is, is worth $5,000 to you because it's like a mid market company or an enterprise company, you might need to pay $300 per lead. In which case, certainly in that environment, 10K would, it'll only get you what, 20, 30 leads. So that might not be enough. But for most business to consumer contacts where you're selling something.

That'S not, that's not incredibly expensive, usually $10,000 is a, is a, is a reasonable test budget for a channel.

Now I'm gonna dig even deeper, just like we do with the data. Yeah. On that ten grand. I know it varies between the clients, but would you. If they're 300 bucks a lead and you can get 33 of them for the 10 grand versus $50 and you can get 200.

Do you base off of, hey, we got $2,000 return on that 10 grand that was successful. $5,000 return. Like what, what's the quantifier for the 10 grand to say? Okay, let's keep going with this. Do you base it more on the percentage ratio of the ad spend or the number of leads or both?

I guess, yeah, kind of both. Ultimately, it needs to be rationalized against the expected value of that investment of money. Right. So sometimes it's a cost per lead compared to a value per lead. But if that's the case, then it's gotta kind of be rationalized. Okay, well, the value of a lead, let's say, is $500 versus a $300 cost per lead. But that $500 value per lead has to be rationalized against. Well, that's because we convert 25% of our leads and the value of a new customer is 2000. So kind of backing into that cost per lead from the metrics and then you're kind of monitoring like okay, leads from Facebook cost us $300. Do they convert at 25% like the rest of the business? If so, great. It's a $500 value. Or maybe Facebook leads are more valuable or less valuable, in which case, you know, we need to adjust that threshold up or down.

So I want to ask you about the pricing per lead. If they're 300 a lead and 425 on Facebook, have you ever shut down a platform completely? Let's say you're on Google Facebook and doing YouTube ads. One's 300, one's 425, and one's 368. How do you differentiate? All right, we could. Can we double or triple the scale on this one if we shut these two down completely, or do you tweak them and just say, hey, we'll reduce the ad spend to allocate it over on the one that's working?

Yeah.

Do you think it's still being better being present on all three versus doubling or tripling down on the one?

Yeah, it kind of depends on the company's goals for most. Most of the companies we work with are giving us thresholds where they say, we want to see a cost per lead or cost per sale of X. And if you can hit X, then we will give you as much budget as, you know, as you can take and still hit that mark. Right. And so I would say if. That. If that mark is conservative, then I would generally advocate if all three of those channels, in your example, if they're all ROI positive, you know, if the value of the leader sale is higher than the cost, I would advocate leaving them all on and spending more in whatever channel you can, you know, you can do. Obviously, if. If that threshold is. Is too aggressive or it's not clearly profitable, you know, then.

Then, yeah, so if one of those was 200 in the example, actually, that would be better for the cost per lead. But other way, if it was 7 or 800, maybe that's when you go, exactly. Let's kill it.

Exactly.

Okay.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I've. It's been an interesting debate because when they're close like that, it's like, you know, you almost wish they were seven or eight, because then you could, you know, allocate everything to one. But when it's. You also have the distribution, hey, there's eyes on all three. You know, there's even more than that. But, yes, that's a great answer and a great way to think about it, you know, because it is best being on all of them. But you don't want to be losing money just to be on it.

Right, exactly. The other thing that we've, that we found useful is, you know, we'll call it like, we'll call it spike testing, where, you know, we want to know how much, how much more could we spend in this channel without compromising that cost per order or cost per sale. And that can really inform how we prioritize one channel versus another. Like, maybe there's one channel that's $400 per order. Another one is 350. So you say, oh, well, the one that's 350 is slightly better. But if we do spike testing and the one that's 400, we could 5x budget and it would still be $400.

The other one, the minute we try to increase budget, it goes from 350 to 700.

That suggests US like, hey, let's really invest in that channel that's 400 because there's so much headroom to grow.

Well, you clearly know what you're talking about with this. And I want to ask you, with all the companies you've helped, who's your biggest transformation story?

It's a good question.

I'll answer that anonymously to avoid NDA problems. But there was one company.

A financial services company that.

They were trying to figure out performance marketing, paid channels, Facebook, Google. We started spending about $10,000 a month. We got that to be profitable for them. So they're putting in 10,000, getting more. And.

You know, it wasn't like first order, but it was near term value. And they came back and asked us to start spending over a million dollars a month, effective immediately. And we kind of were like, well, that's pretty aggressive. You sure you want us to do that? And they said, yep.

And.

We did it, you know, and about a month later, we were spending, you know, I think it was on a run rate of 1.2, $1.3 million. It was, you know, that customer acquisition cost had increased slightly but still profitable for them. And that was one of those moments where I just thought, man, I cannot believe, I cannot believe we just did that. That was, that was incredible. And so that, that kind of sticks out as probably our.

Biggest win. That was really hard and audacious.

Yeah, that's a pretty big jump. Now, did you maintain that? Did they ask you to bump it up again after?

So no. So it stayed constant for a while and then we strategically reduced it, not because of the acquisition cost or the performance, but for other business reasons. So in that particular case, it did not take another step, function up, which.

Yeah, I mean, you'd think if they want to grow, they wouldn't slouch at.

A million a month on ads, you know. Yeah, it's.

Lots of different factors in that case.

Well, that's inspiring. I mean, I know there's companies out there that do it and more, but I know that's not the norm.

Correct. Yeah, yeah, it's much more common. We see companies, you know, they're either launching ads for the first time and trying to figure out how to spend 25k a month profitably, you know, or they're spending 25k a month profitably and they're like, every time we try to spend 50, we can't get it there. Can you help us get it there?

You know, so what contributes to that? When you have it successful at one point, but then you go to increase the ad spend and again, scale up the profits and leads and everything. What, what triggers it to not be as successful? I mean, if you're, if all things considered, copy creative audience, you're targeting and everything, and you dialed it in and spent months doing it.

Yeah, yeah. I would say audience is probably the biggest. So a lot of times, you know, you'll target a specific audience that'll have a certain ceiling and you can kind of, you know, as long as you're hitting that audience, the economics are good, economics being the cost per order. But at some point, you just can't hit that audience anymore because they're already seeing the ads. And so then in order to grow, you've got to find another audience. And when you're going from 25k a month to 100k a month, the audience has to be quite a bit larger.

Four times better.

Yeah, exactly. And so you just kind of, you need to find additional audiences and the new audiences you need to find get bigger and bigger.

And, you know, and you kind of lose some of the creative learnings. Like maybe the creative really worked for that first audience, but the creative, you know, is really different for the next audience. So just, it kind of every audience that you sort of saturate, you have to graduate out of it to more audiences and really kind of redo all of that experimentation around creative and funnel and, you know, really every factor of the advertising.

Yeah, because every audience has a finite size. It might be smaller or bigger, but at some point you're going to be sat, you know, penetrating most of them. And the only other option really is to increase the frequency. But like you said, you don't want to Burn them out.

Yes, exactly.

What's the longest you think you should be pushing an audience before you give them a break and then maybe retool it and come back or try the same thing.

Yeah. So ideally, ideally that question can be answered in the context of a platform that, that gives you like a click through rate, for example, you know how many people are seeing the ad and clicking on it. So in Facebook, for example, you know, you can see over time your click through rate decline as an audience gets saturated. And so, you know, so a lot of times it's not necessarily the duration in days or weeks. It's the, it's the impression frequency. And you'll see that, oh, now people have seen it four times on average, five times on average, six times on average. And you'll see the click through rate go down. And that's a sign that, okay, we need to refresh our creative, put something else in front of them and ultimately, you know, look at, look at other audiences because at some point those creative refreshes become less effective.

Excellent. Well, I appreciate everything you're sharing. It's been very informative. I have one more question for this part with you, and it is the wheel of whatever, and we're gonna see what question you actually get.

Actually, I already know what it is because clearly there's none on here but.

Theatrics and oh, look at that. It's either in yellow or black.

What do you like to do when you're not helping all? What do you do outside of business that you enjoy to do when you're not helping companies?

Yeah, it's a good question. So I love long distance running, though I'm recovering from injuries and I'm perhaps hopelessly trying to get good at electric guitar. So, yeah, so when I have time, I'm doing like, you know, nightly lessons online and. Electric guitar.

Excellent. Very fun. All right, we're going to thank the sponsor and come back for the imperfect action round. You've heard me say every business needs a book, including yours, and it's true. And that's why you should visit freebusinessbook publishingcourse.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. But you know what, don't take my word for it. Take it from a few of my authors, like Lori, I went from having an idea and a possibility to actually getting my book published. Or Catherine, thank you for making my.

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In getting me where I needed to go with promoting my books. Rocio, there's no way in the world I would have been able to do this with somebody else again. I've attempted it in the past. It didn't serve me. As a matter of fact, I ended up more frustrated than anything. So this has been a very seamless process. Adele, if you're looking for an amazing business coach, I highly recommend Mario Ficcini or Bill Benner.

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Hey, their words, not mine. Visit freebusinessbookpublishingcourse.com to get started now. And I look forward to hearing your transformation as the next video success story. Once again, that's free businessbook publishingcourse.com and we are back with the imperfect action round. Tyler, are you ready to take imperfect action?

I'm ready.

Got three questions for you. 60 second or less answers. The first one is what is the fastest path to the profits?

Well, you know, I talked about it a little bit earlier, but I think solving a real problem.

Is sort of the first prerequisite to that. So I would stick with that.

Very good. Number two, what is the biggest problem you see your prospects making and the fastest way for them to fix it?

Well, I don't want to be a broken record here, but I kind of feel like referencing my former self of, you know, looking at a product problem and thinking it's a marketing problem. So, you know, that is one of the biggest problems we see. I feel like that's a little bit of a cop out because I just answered that. So maybe a second answer to that biggest problem we see is.

Not accurately calculating the cost per action and the value of that action. So sort of an analytics problem number.

Three, what is the best way to maximize customer lifetime value?

Yeah. So there. Beyond having a great product. I won't say that one again. I think I would say engagement, staying top of mind, whether that's through personal connection, email, sms, once you're sort of in somebody's mind as providing a great solution, product, service, whatever it may be, just reminding them that you're there.

Very good. What books would you recommend to Expert Authority World?

That's a good question. One that I have particularly benefited from is called Blue Ocean Strategy.

Very, very good. In terms of like looking at different markets and trying to find innovative ways to evolve them. So that one was very impactful as I was thinking through right side up and I would recommend it to anybody.

Well, growing it from 0 to 10 million plus in four years. I think that's a good recommendation.

Awesome. I'm glad to hear it.

Where would you like people to learn more?

Rightsideup.com is a great spot. Obviously people can find me on LinkedIn and we can connect there as well.

Very good. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. I'm so glad I could have you on. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. It's been a blast.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

All right, Expert Authority World. We have another great episode here today. I'll see you tomorrow. Have a great day and God bless. You're already the expert, but have you transformed your expertise into a tangible asset that will generate and qualify leads while increasing profit for you 24? 7? And if so, how well are you promoting it? With the Expert Authority Effect publishing method, it's easier and faster than ever. Visit freebusinessbookpublishingcourse.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction, lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. Visit freebusinessbookpublishingcourse.com to get started. Now once again, that's free business book Publishing Course. Com. Hey, thanks for listening to today's episode. I hope you got a lot out of it. I know I sure did. If you haven't done so already, I invite you to subscribe to the show and also be sure to check out eainterviews.com for complete show notes, the full interview video experience, links to the resources we mentioned, and more. Have a blessed day and I'll see you tomorrow.