0330 | Rick Maurer

Hi, I'm Rick Maurer and I'm at www.rickmauer.com and you're listening to EA interviews.

EA interviews episode 330, inspiration, transformation, success stories and the imperfect action round. Seven days a week. Join Mario Ficcini for today's Expert Authority Effect interview. Change is inevitable, but it doesn't have to be painful. Whether you're in your organization or you're running your organization, change is inevitable in the workplace. But how do you deal with that change? What do you do? I'm excited to have Rick Maurer on today's episode because we're going to be talking about all of this and more. And I have no doubt he's going to be able to help your company because he has helped the likes of Lockheed Martin, the Delight, National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, Verizon, Charles Schwab, the Washington Post, NASA, Tulane University Hospital, Kaiser Permanente, and many governmental agencies in the U.S. canada, UK, Europe and Russia.

I want him to help me too, because I'm impressed with that and I think he might just have one, maybe two things to say to you. So I'm going to bring him up right after we thank our sponsor. Every business needs a book, including yours. And that's why I'm launching my new book to help you, regardless of where you think your current writing abilities are. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction, lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. Once again, that's eapublishingmethodbook.com Here he is, ladies and gentlemen, Rick Maurer. Rick, how are you feeling today?

I feel great, thanks.

Mario, you have such an impressive background. I want to start off by asking you why is change in the workplace so important and why is it such a pain for so many people?

Those are two very good and very fundamental questions. Change is.

I can't imagine an organization you could work in right now where people, where change wasn't good going on a lot. Some of it you're bringing on yourself because you're trying to keep up or get ahead of competitors. Other times the environment is just changing so much that you have to say, oh, we're moving this way, the whole world is moving that way. And any change, whether it's a technological change or a merger, anything is going to have a lot of steps and it's probably going to have some headaches. But we make it worse by not dealing with resistance before it ever happens. I remember a study was done of high tech organizations or at least the IT departments. And they said, what's the biggest stumbling block in information technology projects? And they were thinking it was going to be something like software or something. They said resistance to change.

The thing about it is it can be mostly avoidable if we pay attention to it. And that's sort of what my work is all about.

Oh, I got to know more about that. How do you avoid it?

Well.

When I really started looking at resistance because a lot of my clients were facing it back in the early 90s, I did a literature search on business publications and the phrase resistance to change, and one verb kept coming up over and over again, and that was overcome. We need to overcome resistance. Now, that may sound appealing. The problem is, think about whenever somebody has tried to overcome your resistance. No, no, I think you need to buy those new gutters today. Oh, no. As soon as somebody starts pushing, we push back. And it's just not a good strategy if what you're trying to do is build support. You know, good salespeople know that, and frankly, good leaders know that too. They actually listen to. And so a way to avoid it is to one, bring people in early so they know what's going on, and then treat people with respect. And that may seem really obvious, but I go into organizations and organizations that will hire me, and then I realize they don't really want to do this stuff. They just want to say, well, we hired a guy who wrote a book and it didn't work there either.

They just want the check mark on the box versus actually doing it. And like you're saying about the, you know, it's common sense. Treat people with respect. You've heard about it before, but how well are you doing it? We've all heard stuff. Everyone knows, no one is short on information. But, you know, is there that implementation piece of it?

Yes. In fact, one thing I started doing a couple years ago is I started asking new clients or potential clients two questions, and I'd say, okay, what I deal with is how to build support for change, how to work with or avoid resistance. So I have two questions. One to five, scale. How important is it for you to build strong support? And if people score 4 or 5, then I can say I can help, because that's what I do. If they say a three, I'll go, I think you're going to cherry pick the stuff that I have, and I don't think it's going to do you much good. And if you scored it low, don't hire me because frankly, we're going to be working at odds with each other. But the second question, the one that gets people to look away and kind of cough, I'll say scale of 1 to 5, how willing are you to be influenced by the people you're trying to influence? And the first time I ever asked that of a client, I mean they really did, they literally looked away and started coughing. And I thought, okay, I'm onto something here. But what I find it isn't the leaders don't necessarily have to have a lot of skills in that area, but, but they need to be able to say yes, it's important and yes, I'm willing to be influenced and it's okay if they say I don't know how to do that. That's actually the easy part. It's that mindset that is so very, very critical.

How many organizations would you say are doing this even somewhat well versus non existent?

Wow. There were, I haven't seen recent studies and I just don't know that they're that many are out there right now. But there was a time when it, like in IT organizations, there was a study, I can't remember the name of the organization, found that in large organizations 9% were successful and resistance was the biggest thing. I see your eyebrows go up and as you got down to mid size organizations, the success rate went up to a whopping 23%. I mean this is really pretty bad. And they did some study on quality improvement because it was really big back when this quality, when the change movement really started taking hold and they found out maybe 60% failed. I don't have current data, but when I talk to people and I do a lot of interviews and conversations with people in a lot of different countries and when I ask about building support and resistance, I'm hearing the same messages, the same questions I heard 25 years ago. So I don't have a specific answer, but I gotta feel it's pretty bad sadly because we know what to do. That's the really sad part about it.

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, people are people, you know, if you're hearing the same questions.

And the thing is, I've always been one, I believe wholeheartedly. And you know, when you get to the level of success, you should drop the elevator back down.

So if no one knew it 25 years ago, they learned it the hard way. They hired you, you helped them. But it's not like they're going to the competitors now or even the industry now because it's no Longer a problem. What, you know, that's not their business. And now the new people are having the same issues. And I would even venture to say it's probably worse than it was because I feel now this is not stats or anything, but this is just me, Mario. I feel people have become so dependent on technology and certain things, We've lost that commonsensical piece of just business in society as a whole. And I think, yeah, if there are some stats to back this up, expert, authority world, please give them to us. But I would. I would put my money on. It was probably better back then because people just had, I would say, a shred of more common sense. And it was just like it was more relevant. Now people think this is outdated stuff. It's like, you're insane. I think they're insane.

No, that's to put a clinical description to it. Yeah.

The official profession.

Yeah, there you go. And I think. But I think it's actually worse than what you're saying. I mean, I think the pace of change is even faster. I mean, technological change is really fast. And to your point, we really entered a more digital, separate world, and not just because of COVID.

That people just aren't. They don't have to get together in a room as much. And so it makes it harder to have that conversation. It makes it harder, if you're the boss, for me to raise my hand and go, I'm a little concerned about this. It's much harder to do that digitally. You know, it's just we really were not as personal, you know.

That's exactly right.

Yeah.

The people skills and the common conversations, the ability to even converse, I feel is lost.

Yeah. Can I tell you a quick story?

Absolutely.

This was.

Tell me a long story.

Okay, good. I was doing some work in a healthcare system, and one of their executives, their job was to talk to physicians practices around the city to try to get them to affiliate with their hospital, because that's where they get patients from, is that Dr. X says, oh, we use that clinic over there. And she and I were talking one day and she said, you know, I'm just not getting anywhere with them. And I go out and meet with these physician practices and it doesn't work. And she said, do you have any advice? And I said, well, I'm not there with you, but one thing is, obviously you're really intelligent, you speak clearly. My hunch is you do really good presentations. But my guess is, knowing doctors, that these are really quick meetings. And she said, oh, yeah, they hate meetings. So I Promised them no more than 20 minutes, I think. And I said, and I suspect that you kind of rush to get done because you want to be respectful. And she said, yes. I said, you know, I'll call her. Betty, what you need to do is you need to drink, learn to drink more coffee. And I mean. And she looked at me kind of like you are. And I said, what I mean is get there early and stay a few minutes late just so you can hang out. And that is amazingly simple. But it's exactly where those doctors can start saying, no, you know, I don't think you're right about that hospital. In fact, I was talking to Betty last week and suddenly there's a human face that they now are beginning to respect. It's a really simple thing, but it's harder to do it in this digital world. But it's not impossible.

Yeah, come early, stay late.

I fully and wholeheartedly believe in that principle. And.

For anyone listening, you have to take into account that that's not work time. You know what I mean? You try to go meet someone during the middle of the day, even if they, oh, do you got a minute? Well, maybe they do, maybe they don't. Even if they give it to you, they're not a hundred percent focused. They're, they're thinking about the issue they just dealt, the issue they're dealing with that's coming up for that. You know, afterwards it's like, hey, we're hang loose. You get them at a different temperament.

Yep, that's absolutely right. I was working with an engineering firm and they said, hey, we're having a meeting with the union. It wasn't contract time or anything. And they were talking about these changes they wanted to make. And there was nothing contentious about it. I mean, it wasn't, you know, a high pitched old Hollywood movie kind of thing. But it was perfectly polite. And when the meeting was over, the guy chairing it said, hey, look.

We'Ve got a lot of extra food here. That was brought in for the group before you for lunch. And we've got desserts and 7Up and Coke. Hang around if you want. And so here were some managers and some union people hanging around, but nobody had a seat. I remember a couple people were sitting on a windowsill, a couple others are leaning against the walls. And the quality of the conversation was so much richer. It's exactly the point that you're making, you know. And when the union guys walked out, that manager went, whoa. That was the most valuable part of the meeting. And it was you know, it was unscripted, unplanned and they had brownies in their hands. I mean it was just, you know, it was just, it was just a.

Yeah, the more you can relax people and get food around them and just have them just kind of like we're hanging out. Whenever I'm at conferences and stuff, I always recruit everyone to go by the pool area. Whether they want to go in or not. That's their choice. But I'm always looking for the pool, the lake, the hot tub. And it's just, even if you're just sitting near, near it now I do recommend going in. It's way more relaxing. But for the people who don't just being near it, it's a calming and it's totally different than, I mean there was times where the, I was speaking at the conference in the day, got dinner with some of the speakers and whoever at night. But then it was like now what? We were up till like four in the morning at the cabanas, just like chit chat and, and the next day it's like, oh, there's a conference going on. Forgot about that. Yeah, who's, who's up on the docket? And you know, I had already spoke so I was off the hook. Like I told you right before we started, like you're, you're off the hook. And I felt great. You know, I get real relaxed. But then some of my other friends, they were speaking the next couple of days and it was just like, it was so rich and it was so enjoyable, you know, and memorable. It wasn't just that it was enjoyable and fun for the moment, it was memorable in that moment. And I do feel we were all closer even the next day and still are, you know, years later. So when you're dealing with these organizations because you, you've worked with a lot of companies I love watching videos on, especially Lockheed Martin, you know, and other ones. Is there any similarities you see between these big well known.

Companies in governments versus other companies? Are they all just, you know, they're all people, they all got problems and you help them face them?

Yeah.

No. The differences I find really are in.

Mindset. I see in some large organizations and I won't name any of the clients by name but in some large organizations the leaders are just, they're good people, they're very effective and they're good people and people love working there. And I've seen really small places, mom and pop places that have that. But I've also seen really large organizations. I mean there used to be a guy just died about a year ago. Al Dunlap. And he had the nickname Chainsaw Al because when he took over a company, I mean, people were gone. It's like he went through with a chainsaw. Right. I've seen large organizations sort of like that. We don't need no stinking support for change, that kind of thing. But I've also seen really small little mom and pop things have that same kind of, I don't know, dictatorial attitude. So the difference I see is the complexity in dealing with the challenge of that. If you and I have a company of seven people, that's one thing. If we've got 7,000, that's quite another. But the issues are still the same.

I see what you're saying. So the problems are the same. It's just a matter of the scale that you're dealing with it at.

I believe that's true, yes.

Okay. Now for someone listening, that goes, okay, we know we need to change, but we don't want to. What are some of the. What are the steps you would say they need to go through to have that change and not have to fight the resistance?

Great. Well.

In the 90s, when I wrote a book called beyond the Wall of Resistance, I ended up identifying three levels of resistance. This was not the overcoming thing. And I'll tell you what it is real quickly because then I can give you an example. So the first level of resistance is. I don't get it. I don't understand what you're talking about. So maybe you're a marketing person, I'm an IT person or HR person. It's just you're using a different language. There's nothing wrong with that. And that's the easiest one to deal with. But sometimes we make the mistake of, of thinking, oh, you know, Mario doesn't understand. I'll explain it again. And you know, and if. If it isn't lack of understanding and is one of the others now, you start to get angry. What does he think I'm an idiot? So I don't get it. The second one is I don't like it. And this is an emotional reaction. There's something about this idea that scares me. Now, maybe I have an accurate perception of what's going on, maybe I don't.

But.

But I heard the leader say the word downsizing, and suddenly everything, everything went blank. And I started thinking, oh, my God, I've got. I got a kid in college, we just bought a new house. What am I going to do? And the third one, so I've got. I don't get it. I don't like it. Third one's, I don't like you. And what that really means is I don't have trust and confidence in you to lead this. And all three of those are alive either working for us. Like people get it, they like it, they trust us, or working against us. But it's always there. And all right, so here's how I use it. Years ago, one of the big consulting firms used to, in their terms, parachute me in to teach my stuff. So they'd be working on a project with a client and I would come in and I would spend a half day just teaching myself. So it was an organization, it had been around about a century. And they were an old brick building with lots of floors. I mean, it felt like it was a century old. And they were just starting to do business process re engineering, which at the time was hugely controversial. I mean, people, they would hear about it and it was in the press and that, and people get scared. They would go to that level two fear right away. So I'm just there and their consultants there and the planning team is there and I'm just teaching. This one guy raises his hand, he said, rick, next week the bomb is going to drop. And other people go, oh yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be awful. It's gonna be blood everywhere. I mean, really, Mario, really horrible images. And I said, what's going on next week? And they said, we're holding a meeting. And I go, yeah. And he said, it's an all day meeting and still I can't hear this bomb. And I said, hey. And then they looked at me like puppy dogs going, what should we do? You know, and what I would love to have said would be, you know, well, turn to page 42 in my book. But that really would have been the wrong thing to do. But they wanted something. And I said, hey, everybody here knows somebody who's coming to that meeting next week. I said, oh yeah, they're the key stakeholders. We know what's going to be on their minds, do you think? And I'm just grappling for information right now. So I have some data to work with and they're telling me and there's a flip chart there and I'm writing as fast as I possibly can. And everything on that list was negative.

And I said, okay, so which of these are level one? Like people don't understand it. Let me use a green marker. And I underline those which are level 2. People are scared which of these. And like I say, everything was negative. Sometimes it can have positive side. But this organization, everything was negative. So I had completely color coded so you could see level one, two and three. And the guy who had said the bomb was going to drop said, oh, that's why the bomb is going to drop. And people looked at him. So what are you talking about? He said, we designed that entire eight hour meeting to deal with level one issues, timelines, deliverables, financial, all of that. He said, which is obviously really important. But that's not what they're coming in with. Their concerns are they're afraid and they don't trust us. And it was eye opening for those men and women in the room. But here was what really excited me, that they said, could we take the next hour and redesign that meeting? So they didn't ask the consultant from the big firm or me for help. They just turned their chairs around and they redesigned the meeting. Same people, same bad coffee. But said, how are we going to do this in a way that is not going to increase fear, might even reduce it? And how are we going to present ourselves in ways that people might actually begin to trust us? And so I talked to the other consultant, he said, oh, just that that meeting went really well. They got a bunch of people on their side. So a big thing is where somebody starts, is to go, you got to know, it's like a gps. You've got to know where you are and you have that picture. Then you can say, wow, it's not too bad or it's pretty bad. Now what do we do with that? And that's where it takes some skills. And what I've done in my recent book is to say, hey, look it don't start big. Don't start with some huge planning event where you're having casts of hundreds and you're going off site. Start with something small, something, you've got a boring meeting happening tomorrow. What's one small thing you could do to tweak it which might add some energy in and it's a great way to get started. And then you can go bigger if you want. But I'm a real big fan of not making the human part an add on. I want to be, I believe it needs to be.

You want it at the core.

Yes. The technical part and the human part are both, it's like a latte. They both need to be there and they need to be blended together so you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.

That sounds really good. Literally and figuratively. I want to ask you about that energy component of it because I think it's great how they shifted it over because you. You know when someone's going, the bomb's gonna go off. That's a pretty bold statement. And even if they're referring to it figuratively, like they were. I wasn't sure where you were going with it. That's why I was like, oh, my gosh, where's this? You know? But when you're at that state to begin with, your fear and your angst is just so high. Are you even listening to anything going on? No. So when they redesign the meeting, that's better. But whether it was good, bad, indifferent, where was the energy that they're bringing to the table? So what would you say? Someone has a good meeting, everything's good. No one thinks the bomb's going off. But there's people that are just. They're not bringing the energy. What's one way you can combat that?

First of all, you need. I think of it as an energy gps. This is not a product that I have for sale. This is a metaphor. But we need.

Maybe you should. I'll look up the domain right now.

Okay. We need a way to read the room, to know.

Are they engaged? Are they volunteering? When I ask a provocative question, are. Is it just the same two people always speaking? What happens? After that meeting, I was working with people, a paint manufacturer, and we're talking about this stuff. And they said, you know what we could do? He said, we always have refreshments before some sort of meeting on some project. And he said, what we're going to start doing is having refreshments after the meeting, and we're going to make a commitment to be there and hang out.

So it's very similar to my saying to Betty, hey, drink more coffee. And they said, because then if we hang out and we make sure we don't have our phones in our hands or that we're not just talking to each other, we're there for conversations. So you need somehow to have an immediate, easy feedback loop.

And sometimes I remember one executive saying in his department, there were a few people that he could just call after a meeting a day later and say, hey, what's the word on the street? You know, these people weren't being like the secret police naming names, but they were saying, you know, that didn't go over, you know, or, wow, people are pretty excited. So you somehow need. Once you know that, now you can start to do something. So if people are Indifferent, then what I would do, in fact, what I try to do is get out there and say, hey, that meeting seemed to go over with a thud. What was wrong? I mean, I'll just name what it is. It's, you know, went over the thud and, you know, what did they do wrong? And then I shut up. I allow people to talk. And too often we don't want any space there, you know, you know, good God help us if somebody actually would say something. So, you know, just, you know, why.

Do you think people are so fearful of that space?

I.

Think there could be a number of reasons. I think the fear of losing face is a big one. I think that we've set up this mythology and organizations that the higher you are, the brighter you are. And therefore, to show some weakness is. Is a sign of weakness.

And that's. I mean, some leaders absolutely believe that you never show weakness. You just keep moving forward. The leaders that I've seen, who I go, wow, I could work for that man or woman. They're willing to. It's not that they're looking to be wrong. They're willing to be wrong. They're willing to have people say, wait a minute, so what would you do? But I think it's that fear of losing face in front of other people, or fear that I won't have the answer.

Can I give you one example?

Yes.

Thank you.

It was a large company, and they had, every month they would have a group of up and coming managers. These were the men and women they were hoping that would be the senior leaders one day. And the chief operating officer always wanted to be there when those meetings started just to welcome people. Now he's the CEO of a huge company. He easily could have created a video. He could have sent somebody else and say, hey, Marty's really sorry he couldn't be here today. And we've all been to those meetings. But he would be there and he'd say, look, folks, the reason I'm here is you're the future of our company. And I just want to say thank you for taking your time to spend this week. And then the other two weeks you're going to be doing later in the year, and I want to give you a choice. We got an hour together. He said, I've got the PowerPoint show that we use for Wall street, and it's very good. It talks about the trends, the challenges, how we're doing in comparison to our competitors. He said, it's very good. He said, I'm happy just to sit back and show that or we don't have to turn the projector on. And I can try to answer questions for the next hour. I've been in the back of the room maybe 15, 20 times he's done that. I've never seen the group say, oh, show us the PowerPoint. And so what happens is, obviously a lot of these people have never seen this guy before. They would start with really easy questions, these would be level one questions. And they said, well, there's been a lot of talk about that July initiative. When will that be starting? And they'll go, will that be in July? I mean, it was almost not that obvious, but it was almost that. I mean, these are real slow pitch softball kind of. You could see it coming across the plate. And. But as people realized this guy's taking him seriously, they would ask tougher questions. And one challenge this company had was a thing they called horizontal integration. Like, how do I integrate what's happening over at this place with that place to this place over in Belgium and so on and so forth. And it's a big challenge for him because a lot of people, a lot of different corporate cultures, blah, blah, blah, blah. So this guy raises his hand and I'm not going to exaggerate this, Mario, at all. So the executive says, yeah. And the guy goes, so what are you guys doing about horizontal integration? I mean, the guy did not understand the phrase career limiting move, apparently. And you know, but everybody's now looking at the executive because it was disrespectful. And the executive.

Just stood there and he took a step closer to the guy and said, you know.

That is a really good question. I wish I had a really good answer, but I don't. I can tell you that the executive team talks about that challenge a lot and we're not coming up with good solutions. And then he stepped back and he said, if any of you have any ideas that could help us with that, we are more than open to them. So what a simple thing to do. And if anything, it didn't show weakness. It showed. People were saying, wow, I follow that guy anywhere.

Yeah, I've heard that from other guests. Because it's a very, I say, contrarian point.

People don't want to be vulnerable, so to speak. But I don't see it as vulnerable either. It's if you have a problem in the organization. The one thing I love about having a team is I don't need to be the smartest person. That's why you're the specialist in this area, in that area. In this area, because what can we do as a collective so we all win together, not just, oh, look at me. I've got to, like, I screw up a good majority of things. I'm really, really good at, the few things I chose to be really good at. And that's all I really, you know, ask me these things. This is one of them, and I'm cool with that. I don't need the answer to everything, but I know the people who do, and we can all collectively work together and win.

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying 100%. And really, what I would recommend to clients, because just the thought of, like, I'm going to open up a meeting and I'm just going to ask questions. I mean, what could happen? I'll go, okay, what would be less risky than that? Because for some people, that's a huge risk. And it's like saying you've never skied before, but you're going to take the double black diamond slope. So I would say, all right, so what's something you could do that might be helpful, but isn't that big risk? Like, one executive gave out index cars, just regular old go to the drugstore, buy index cards, and gave them to all the managers and said, look, I made this decision. A lot of you are complaining about it. Would you write down anonymously any of your concerns, any of your questions? And he came into the meeting and he didn't reduce them to PowerPoint. Here are the five themes you came up with, which would be pretty common. He came in with a stack of cards and he just started going through them. Now, advantage is one, people knew that this was the real stuff that they had said. The second thing, he asked for the cards three days before the meeting. So he had a chance. If there's something he didn't want to answer, he didn't have to, but he had a chance to react emotionally before he was in that room. So it was a way to get. To really get at the real stuff, but to do it in a way that he could be fully present, fully comfortable. And I've always been impressed with that. So it cost him 99 cents.

When you see people doing this in the organizations, do you think the people that work for the organizations appreciate it more?

Yeah, absolutely. When they see it happen and they know that it's real and not because they just read a book by Rick Maurer or that they went to a workshop, you know, when it seems consistent with who that man or woman is. Yeah, it's.

I think it's greatly appreciated. And unfortunately, it's not as common as it really ought to be. Given all the money we pump into books and training programs and consultants and that. It's pretty amazing. I mean, it's really, you know, it's the kind of stuff I remember. There's a book that came out years and years ago. Everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten. And I don't remember the content of the book, but the idea is that a lot of this stuff is stuff that you go, yeah, that's how I'd like to be treated.

It's common sense.

It's common sense, Yeah.

I think very much the same way. I remember my first company I started before I sold it to start this one. It was like I didn't have training. I didn't have world class experts like you every week. I didn't have everything I have now. But I still had clients. I still had a profitable business and it was, you know, what was. It was common sense. You have a problem. How can I help you? Are you interested? Here's how much. It's basically it. I can help you. Do you want to solve your problem?

That's nice. I like that a lot.

It's common sense. But yes. Why is it so uncommon then?

I.

I wish there were a single answer for that.

I.

I know it's a loaded question. If you want to skip to one of the other world's problems, we can go straight there. That's fine too.

They're on my index cards. Let's see.

I, first of all, I think one thing that happens, and it happens, even happens to me, it happens to me too, is that often people are so busy that they'll get into a meeting and they go, okay, we got an hour together. We've got to get through. Da da da da da da. Thinking of keeping it simple, thinking of the kind of stuff that might actually engage people. It's like that's not even on the screen.

And I've seen people, I mean, they just are running ragged. They're walking into one meeting and they're still finishing the last meeting. And, and then before this meeting's over, they're saying, oh yeah, I got to get across to the other building. And it's that lack of just being there that I think gets in the way. I don't think a lot of people don't want to be jerks. I mean, they really don't want to do the wrong thing. It's just.

They'Re just too, too busy.

I remember Jack Welsh who used to be the head of ge, they would have. They were having a problem with project teams. And one of the big problems is that people were talented. People were pulled onto the team to do the work, but they were given no latitude. I mean, they still had. Their plates were completely full, but now they've got another big project. And he said, look, there's a guy that used to be on variety shows where he would spin plates and that's where you would have a wooden dowel and you spin a plate and. And so now you got five or six of these plates going and you're going, I don't know how he does it. And oh, this one's starting to teeter a little bit. So you go over and he'd turn it and Jack Welch, I'm paraphrasing here, but would say, look, that's what we got to be able to do. We got to be able to tell how many plates can we keep going. And that if we have one more plate up there, we're putting everything at risk. And you project leaders have got to have the guts to say to us, I can't take another plate right now. Yeah, I think that that kind of simple statement that, I mean, you were nodding your head that most people nod their head to can be really helpful to those people out working on projects. Oh, okay. I can say no to some things, you know, and.

Wow, that's powerful because if, you know, the leaders just want to continue to push stuff on because we want to grow and scale and all this stuff, but if the team can't support it.

They have to be able to say, hey, you know what, we either can't do this or we can't do it right now, but maybe in a week or two we can.

I think that would be great.

Or we need more support. You know, if we just had one extra person or maybe 10 extra people or 100. I mean, if you're comparing GE to a local business versus a mid sized it all, it's all relative. But you know, the point is we need this. This is the number of adequate help, then we actually can take this. It's not like you're actually doubling if, hey, if, you know, it's why people have assistance, hey, if this is off my plate, it frees me up to, in my case, do more interviews.

Yeah, one other thing, I like what you're saying completely. And the one thing I would add to that is of course, okay, boss, you want me to do these things? Here are the plates. I'm spinning Right now, which one of these would you like me to stop spinning so I can do these others?

It's a risk. You know, it can be a riskier question, but with a good boss, they'd say, yeah, what can we put on the back burner for now?

I like that. I like that a lot. And I think a lot of people tend to take that to heart because it's not to say you can't do it. It's not. It's just a matter I found more often than not, it's a matter of should we be doing it now? Should we prioritize it for here and then we can go into it full force? Hey, let's wait till next quarter. It's only a few weeks away anyways.

Yeah.

Is it really going to do the thing? And it's going to take us 90 to 120 days to implement it effectively and master it anyhow. What's the big deal? Now we can go in instead of. We're at our lips and we're running. We're at our limit and we're running on fumes. And it's like, yeah, add four more plates. And none of them were. Best case, none of them break. Worst case, they do. But no matter what, none of them are really getting that effective. They're just kind of there and you're just running in circles. So appreciate everything you're saying. I want to ask you real quick about your biggest transformation you've been able to give to a company. What does that look like?

Hmm.

It's actually a pretty simple story, but I just, I. I used to do work with an organization. I'm in the Washington, D.C. area. It was a local organization. And they. They called me. One of the people called me and said, hey, are you free on July 15th? To. And I'm always a little worried when they have the date in mind, because then they. They know what they want. And I said, I am free. What do we have? We would like you to give a motivational speech. We've just gone through a merger with these and, you know, all the leaders, and they'd be happy. And I said, first of all, I'm not a motivational speaker. That's not what I do.

And two, if people are really balking at the merger and the merger isn't really taking place like it ought to be, you don't need an outsider to come in and tell you to, rah, rah, rah. And I said, how much time can you give me that day? She said, you can have a Whole day, if you want. And I said, well, I'd like to bring an associate in and do some interviews beforehand and just see the lay of the land. So I brought in a friend of mine, Regina, and we individually. She went out to some people, I went out to some people, and we had lots of conversations, and we got together, and what occurred to both of us is all of these managers.

Just feel like something had died. And one of us, I can't remember if it was Regina or me, said, man, these people need a funeral. And we both said, let's hold a funeral now before you and your listeners go, oh, man, this is crazy. You know, we never, ever called it a funeral during that day, but we said, all right, what needs to happen is there needs to be a recognition of this is where we are. So. And we told. I told my client, I said, look, we're going to be doing a lot to really help people. Talk with each other, hear each other. We think that can help move you forward, but we can't make a guarantee. Is that okay? You know, there's not. You know, I can't. I'm not a faith healer here, folks, you know, and they said, no, no, that's fine. So we started the meeting, and we had everybody sit in their new group. So I think there were like, six groups. And I said, okay, everybody has a flip chart. Every group just list, what do you gain from this merger? What do you lose? And so then I start going around the room. Everybody figured the last group, which was the new executive team, that was going to be the cool group. I mean, all the positive things were going to be there, so you may know what's coming. And so we go around the room, and all of these lists are pretty similar. And you get to the executive group, and it looks exactly like everybody else's. It was a huge turning point. A huge turning point. We're in this thing together. Everyone was feeling lost. Everyone was feeling some excitement about possibilities. And so we did some stuff to really help people talk about what's going on right now. And we started to hear language change. Now, we didn't have something scheduled for 10:45. Like, okay, at 10:45, they will have moved to this place psychologically, and we're going to move here. But we started to hear language change. At first it had been, well, you guys, you're doing this. And then it shifted to we. And then a little bit of, like, you know, we could be. And Regina and I put our heads together and said, hey, you know, here's what we're hearing. We're hearing your language change. It sounds like you might be at a place where you could begin talking to each other about where you are now and where you need to go. Are we off track or on track? And they said, no, that's good. So we created. There's like 90 people in the room. We created what we call a fishbowl, and we had representatives from each of the groups. And I said, hey, here's the deal. If you're not in the fishbowl, but you have something you want to say, just tap your representative. Say it's Mario. Tap him on the shoulder, and you have to get up, and that other person sits down. So over the course, I don't know, about an hour, people are shifting in and out, but it seemed like everyone was engaged in this conversation, the whole group. And so I think we took a break, and Regina and I got together. When they came back, we said, you know, it sure sounds like you folks might be ready to work in your own groups to talk about what the next steps are. Are. We don't want to rush you there, but are you? And everybody said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they got in these groups, and then they reported out, and they said it was a huge turning point for them. So we didn't do anything magical. It was mainly paying attention to where is the energy right now? How do we. How do we. How do we support that energy without it being a free for all or a big crying fest or something? It wasn't supposed to be that. But how do we respect where things are and then provide a safe enough container that when they're ready to talk about moving forward in some way, that they can have those conversations. To me, it was. The client was so willing to. To kind of go along with what could best be called an experiment. I got to work with Regina, who I have a lot of respect for. I mean, we just. Everything just worked that day. So that's a really simple one. But, boy, it had a profound impact.

Yeah, it sounds like it. And I appreciate you for sharing that, because.

I can see how an organization would want to make all these changes, you know, and at first it sounded like, have you in there as the speaker. You're going to really motivate people this and that. But at the core of it, you can't be talking about level 10 problems when you're stuck on level 1, and you essentially haven't gone through the stages of grief and going, okay, we're. We're losing this, because everyone was so fixated on what they're going to lose, not what they're going to gain. And, you know, you took time, I also heard that, to walk them through the stages, and they came up to the thing naturally. You know, I loved what you said about, you know, at 10:45, we didn't schedule a language change, but that's what happens, because they were able to communicate in air what they needed to. Okay, now we're in a new place. We can take that place, go to step three, and by the end of the day, you know, it sounds like it's all good. And, I mean, you were able to. That's a huge transformation. I. I appreciate. I really do appreciate you breaking it down because it's easy to say, well, beforehand they were doing 5 million a year. Now they're doing 25. Okay, that's all well and good, but when you took hundreds or thousands of people and changed their whole paradigm in less than a day, shoot. What's the secret? That sounds awesome. Okay, so we didn't.

Okay, we didn't change their paradigm. We created a container so they could change.

You gave them the opportunity for them to change their paradigm. Okay, I get it. I'm somewhat making it in jest, but still, it's impressive nonetheless. And very few people can do that, no matter how you brand it or, you know, what the steps are. So congrats on that. That's huge. I have one other question for you before we thank our sponsor.

Yeah.

And. And it is the wheel of whatever. Actually, I got two. One, what color do you want, yellow or black?

Yellow.

Cool. So that's one. And the question is, what do you like to do for fun when you're not changing all the companies in the world?

Oh, hey.

Yeah, yeah. In fact, let me play a song right now. No, I play jazz.

And it's trombone, right?

Yeah, it's actually an odd trombone. It's a valve trombone, so it plays like a trumpet rather than a slide. But it's still. It works well in jazz. And I love.

I have my sax just off camera.

Really?

Yes. Not even joking. When you said, I'll play something, I'm.

Like, okay, let's go.

That's fantastic. Yeah. How long you been playing?

Wow. I went to music school undergrad. I joined the U.S. army Band here in D.C. when I got out, and then I quit playing. I was in the army for three years. It was a good band.

Thank you for your service.

Thank you. And I didn't play for years and years, and I thought, I can't stand it anymore. And I went on ebay and I bought a horn and I found a guy and I said, look, I love jazz. I've listened to it my whole life and I want to learn how to play it. And the guy was a jazz musician and he was really, really helpful. And over the years.

You know, I've. I've gotten well enough. I actually perform people and they for people and they don't throw me out. In fact, last year, a guy named Carl Berger, who was a pioneer in what's called avant garde or free jazz, asked me to write a book with him. And so it came out last year. So, you know, because I had nothing else to do.

That's fantastic.

So it was really fun.

Sounds similar to me. I was in marching band, choir, drama, all that stuff in high school and wasn't going into it. So I sold my horns and for some other reasons senior year. And then couple years ago, unfortunately after my uncle passed, he. And I'm glad It's still around. Charitymusic.org they actually take. They get instruments from donors and get them out to people who need them, like underprivileged schools, districts, homes, whatever the case is. So I actually got mine from him and I hadn't played in a while and I, in one regard, I was like, really happy how easy it came back to me. But it also was like, wow, I do need to practice because just like anything, especially with sex, the embouchure of like the muscles in my mouth, it's like I use them to talk, but not play. Play, you know, 52 hours a week, like I did back in the day. But it was just cool because a lot of it just came back to me. And I still play piano as well, so that is fantastic. What a great question. That just.

I'm glad you asked it.

I'm glad I did because I literally just make stuff up. And you know, sometimes it's like, who's someone you haven't worked with? Who would you love to have dinner with? Tell me about. I was actually thinking, I was actually like, after seeing who you've worked with, I was like, tell me a secret you've about one of your clients. You've never told anyone. I've gotten people to reveal stuff live and I got emails from their staff, like later that day or the next day. We're like, we didn't even know the next product that was coming out. I'm like, yes.

But what I've realized with this, it always happens the way it does. Like what you're talking about right now and even the fact that you pulled the trombone up and I'm like, I literally was like, if you want to play, I'll go get it too. But.

You just got to be cool, you know, don't force everything like you were talking about. This has been awesome. So we're going to thank the sponsor. We're going to come back for some more with the imperfect extra. But I'm loving this and that's so cool. You've heard me say every business needs a book, including yours and it's true. And that's why I'm launching my new book@eapublishingmethod book.com so you can learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. But you know what, don't take my word for it. Take it from a few of my authors like Lori, I went from having.

An idea and a possibility to actually getting my book published.

Or Catherine, thank you for making my.

Mom number one best selling author.

Or Mary Alice what he got done.

For me in three days regarding my book launch.

Unmanageable John Cody. I've worked with Mario over the phone and online and he's been very helpful in getting me where I needed to.

Go with promoting my books. Rocio, there's no way in the world I would have been able to do this with somebody else again. I've attempted it in the past. It didn't serve me. As a matter of fact, I ended up more frustrated than anything. So this has been a very seamless process. Adele, if you're looking for an amazing business coach, I highly recommend Mario Ficcini or Bill Benner. I can't make a higher recommendation than to work with Mario Ficini. He has been great for me and right now I won't work with anybody else except for Mario.

Hey, their words, not mine. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com to get your copy and I look forward to hearing your transformation as our next video success story. Once again, that's EA Publishing method book.

And we are back with the imperfect action round. Rick, are you ready to take imperfect action?

It's destroying my life. Yes.

All right, got three questions for you. 60 second or less answers. The first one is what is the fastest path to the prophets?

Wow.

For me it would have had if I would have had the good sense to say no to things that I knew that were not a good fit for me because more I started focusing on, I think it's been resistance to change the happier I am. And my, my clients are willing to pay for that. Suddenly I had a speaking career because of that. And when I was trying to say, oh, I could do that, oh, I could do that, I could, I could do those things. But it wasn't a. It kept food on the table, but it wasn't a path to profit.

Excellent. Number two, what is the biggest problem you see your prospects making and the fastest way for them to fix it?

I hate to say, read my book, but I don't hate to say that I think one of the biggest ones and what I'm focusing on is the human side of what's going on in organizations. So I'm sure there's lots of technological things and the reopening after Covid.

I think the fastest way.

For them to fix the human part is to learn to be mindful, just to learn to pay attention to their breath. And I'm not talking about doing something, going to a mountaintop. I'm talking about as you walk into.

A meeting.

Just stopping and instead of having a sip of coffee, as you might normally do, just allow that to be a moment when you're just collecting yourself. It's still going to look like all you're doing is drinking coffee. So you're not looking weird or anything. But it's just one of those things like a meditation belt that lets you kind of settle in. And I think doing that kind of consistently can be an incredible thing to do. And you don't even have to pay consultants like me to do that.

That's great advice. That's real great advice. Number three. And I was gonna make a joke on the first one when you said, wow, I was gonna say, that's not even the powerful one. That was a softball one. Wait till you get to wait till quite. Question three. Here's question three. What's the best way to maximize customer lifetime value.

As the showstopper? Everyone goes, wow, that's a good one. That's why I left it in there the whole time.

It's a very good one. When I'm thinking about the people who've been long term clients.

There'S one. I mean, I think I deliver when I do, but a lot of people deliver. But we have good relationships. I really like these people. They like me. It's cool to be around each other. Even if it's virtual. It's cool to be around each other. And for me, that's.

You know, I was going to say it's like a marriage. It's not at all like A marriage. But it's like. It's a commitment to, you know, to this working relationship and that. So they want to call me, and I want to come back, and if I'm working on something new, I said, I want them to know what it is, or I want them to be the first to take a look at something I'm developing. And so it's. It just feels.

For me, it feels more like music. It's just fun. It's just good to do so.

I can relate to that. And I agree. I mean, it's good if your clients like you and you like them.

Yeah. What a concept. We could try a book.

I. I decided 2013.

I switched things over. I go, I'm never working with someone again that doesn't appreciate what we do and doesn't thank us for it because there's people. It's like they think just. They don't share our values. That's a nice way of saying it. And I go, you know What? I had 38 simultaneous clients at the time, honored all the existing stuff. And in that moment, I'm like, never again. And I haven't. And it's made all the difference. So, joking aside, seriously, when it's like, oh, yeah, your clients like you. No, it's a big deal because there's a lot of people that let people push them around.

Why are you in this problem? If you're having issues before you Even start, wait three months, six months, or 12 months, if you even get that far. It'll suck up the rest of the year and drain everyone else you're working with. No way. Absolutely not. So I'm glad you mentioned that. What books would you recommend to Expert Authority World that have helped your business?

Wow. Wow, wow, wow.

I.

There's a book by Peter Block, the L O, C K, called Flawless Consulting. It's a. It's a pretty old book, but basically, I mean, his. I don't want to do disservice by simplifying it, but it's basically, be present, okay? If things aren't working, say, hey, this doesn't seem to be working.

I'll just tell you a story about him, and then you'll get why I like him. Because just thinking about that book, I think about when I was first starting out, I think, what would Peter do? It's really that kind of that. I was working with MCI, the phone company that on AT&T, and they said, you're coming in to speak. Do you have a book? We'd like to give out books I said, I hadn't written anything. They said, well, do you recommend anything? I said, yeah. The Empowered Manager by Peter Block. And so my client, Jim Zuko, who I really like, respect, he's one of those people that, you know, I go, man, that's a good leader. He told all his managers, he said, okay, I'm giving you all the book. I want you to do a book report on each. On a chapter a week. And people just were enraged. And some people dutifully did it. Others, no, I'm not going to do that. But it was. He created this firestorm and he was so happy. And he said, I wonder if we can get Peter Block on the phone. So they're. An executive meeting calls. Peter Block doesn't know Peter Block at all, and said, hey, Peter, we're using your book. And I'm sure Peter said, well, that's good. And he said, oh, you're going to love this. We're giving people book reports to do on a chapter a week. It's silent. Peter goes, that's one of the sickest things I've ever heard. And Jim said, oh, we got to work with the guy. And so it, you know, it's. Anyway, I just like. What I really like about Peter Block's work is.

He'S real, he's authentic, that what you see is what you get. And that's hard on some people, but it's just like, wow, what a great way to be. And that's. There's a lot of books that have influenced me. That, that and Peter Block himself. It's influenced me just a tremendous amount of.

Well, thank you for that. That's a great story, too. But I appreciate the recommendation. Where would you like people to learn more about you?

Thanks for asking that. My website, which is rickmauer.com and Maurer is spelled funny. It's M A U R E R. So rickmauer.com and it has kind of all the stuff I do. There's a lot of free resources on the site. There's also this new book, Seizing Moments of Possibility, which is free. You can. If you go to the homepage, you'll see in the right hand corner, a little block. You just put in your email address and the book appears as a PDF, period. And there's no. There's nothing else that happens. I mean, you know, it's just. You get the book and it's the newest thing. I just, like, say I introduced it the end of April. I'm getting really good reactions to it. I think it's a good short like 75 page view of how I'm working these days and how I would I suggest to my clients that they work so and it doesn't cost you anything. So that's where to go. Rickmower.com Excellent.

Thank you for that Rick. It's been an absolute pleasure. Loved everything. I know we could talk more but thank you for sharing all you have.

Oh this really been it's been a real joy. Mario.

Well, thank you for that. And Expert Authority World, we have another great episode here today. I'll see you tomorrow. Have a great day and God bless.

You're already the expert, but have you transformed your expertise into a tangible asset that will generate qualified leads while increasing profit for you 247 and if so, how well are you promoting it? With my new book, the Expert Authority Effect Publishing Method, I take you through my process step by step. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction, lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com to get started. Now once again, that's eapublishingmethodbook.Com thanks for listening to today's episode. I would love to know what you enjoyed most from it. If you haven't done so already. I invite you to consider connect with me on my new LinkedIn. You can go to it directly at eainterviews.com LinkedIn Once again, that's eainterviews.com LinkedIn. Lastly, check out the full eainterviews.com site for complete show notes, the full interview video experience, links to the resources we mentioned, and more. Have a blessed day and I'll see you on the next one.