0411 | B. Jeffrey Madoff [Part 1]

Hi, this is B. Jeffrey Madoff and I'm really happy to be on the EA Interviews today with Mario Forcini. And I'm the CEO and founder of Madoff Productions.

EA Interviews episode 411, inspiration, transformation, success stories and the imperfect action round. Seven days a week. Join Mario Ficcini for today's Expert Authority Effect interview. I am super excited, Expert Authority World to have none other than B. Jeffrey Madoff on the show. He has worked with Clairol, Godiva, Gucci, Tiffany's, Victoria's Secret. He is a playwright, he's an author, he has an expansive wealth of wisdom in the film industry, the fashion industry, and I don't want to screw up anymore. There's this whole list of impressive stuff he's done over the years, but just getting to know him recently, he's really down to earth. He's really caring, he's really sharing and I can't wait to bring him to you. I'm going to bring them up right after we thank our sponsor. Every business needs a book, including yours. And that's why I'm launching my new book to help you, regardless of where you think your current writing abilities are. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction, lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. Once again, that's eapublishingmethodbook.com Here he is, ladies and gentlemen, B. Jeffrey Madoff. Jeff, how are you feeling today?

I'm good, thanks. Thanks for having me on, Mario.

Oh, it's my pleasure. I know you have a wealth of wisdom to share with the film industry and live event industry, fashion, but how did you get started in the very beginning?

Birth.

You know, once I came out of my mom, I saw there was a whole world of opportunities and that was really the inciting incident because without being born you really can't do much of anything.

Absolutely.

You know, I didn't have a master plan and I didn't have, you know, a path I was going to follow.

When things really interested me and really engaged me. And this has been true since I was a kid. I went after those things that I thought, God, this is really cool, this is really interesting. And I didn't think about, you know, I didn't think about whether I could make money from it or not, you know, because first and foremost was I wanted to enjoy doing what I was doing.

How important would you say it is to have that enjoyment versus just going for money? Because I feel like some people are chasing after the money. And they hate what they do. And then they just do it for 50, 60 years, whether it's a job or a business.

Well, for me, you know, it's. The enjoyment part is essential. That's oxygen. That's what keeps me going. That's what keeps my lungs filling up with air and my heart beating. And, you know, I think you have to ask yourself, what does success look like for me? And.

For me, it's being fully engaged, working on things that I have a genuine curiosity about, and working with people who I really enjoy. And, you know, I. I posed the question to the class that I teach at Parsons. I'll talk to the students and to my guests and ask them what success is for them.

And then can you be successful? Can you consider yourself successful if you're making a lot of money, but as you said, you hate every day you go to work? I don't think that's success. I think that's what leads to addiction and problems in your life.

How would you define success?

Well, there's two different types of success for me. Okay. One is, you know, the success in business. And success in business, to me is that I have options and that I can afford to say no without catastrophic financial circum. Consequences. And in my personal life, it's.

Loving my friends and being loved back.

You can't really put a price on that. No one can buy that.

Right? That's right.

I think there's a lot of people that have all the money in the world, but if they actually needed something, you know, other than the staff they're paying, would someone, like, reach out to help them?

Right. I guess you could.

You could buy love, you know, by the hour, but it's not really what we're talking about.

Yeah, there's a lot of intangibles to life that, you know, I think money help, for sure, helps facilitate it. Travel, lodging, wherever you live, it makes things nicer. But I think there's certain things that unless you have that personal connection. And for me, relationships are huge. So unless you have that personal connection.

It'S like, what? Just going through the motions of life does not sound fun to me, like, in any regard, any business whatsoever.

Oh, I think you're right, Mario. And I think that the true currency in life is the quality and the integrity and the sustaining relationships that you have throughout your life. I'm really fortunate. I mean, I have really close friends that I speak to regularly, that we grew up together. And, you know, so I know I'm in touch with lots of People that, you know, I played cowboys with, you know, 60 years ago. So it's great because we knew each other's parents, knew each other's homes, you know, I mean, it was. And. And that's irreplaceable. And I think it gets harder as you get older. When you get married, when you have a family, when you're building a business, you don't have the time to hang out in the same way that you did when you were a kid. And then I miss that. I like hanging out. I think there's a real value in that. I think it's really important.

And again, I think that it's so important that you get a sense of fulfillment from your work now, which doesn't mean that you can't have hobbies, that your work finances, and you get a lot of enjoyment out of that. And I also think as your life progresses or changes. When I started my first couple businesses, I wasn't married, I didn't have kids. So in taking the risks that I took, it only affected me.

And what were your first couple of businesses?

The first adult business that I started, it sounds like I was in porn.

But the first adult business that I started was I was a. Started a clothing company.

Okay.

And. And that was totally as a lark. Or a friend who I'm still in touch with. I don't remember not knowing him. His mom and mine.

Wow, that's awesome.

Together. And he had graduated from college a year before I did, and he said, look, I've saved up some money. Can you think of a gig that would earn more than bank interest? And I said, well, I see what we sell in the store, and this is this little boutique. I mean, we sold like, rolling papers and hash pipes at the checkout counter. It wasn't like this big, you know, store, but it was a cool place in Madison, Wisconsin. And I said, I'll start a clothing company. I didn't really know what I was talking about, you know, and.

Spoken like a true entrepreneur.

Yeah.

I don't know what's going on. Let's go for it. We'll figure it out.

Exactly, exactly.

But, you know, as you know, being an entrepreneur, there are so many myths out there about entrepreneurship, and it's hard to make a living with your ideas.

Whether you're self financing or financing through the revenues of your business or seeking outside finance or whatever, entrepreneurship is a roller coaster ride, 100%. And I know a lot of people who have become extraordinarily successful financially, but who went through quite a minefield. As they were on that journey there. And, and I don't think that that ever ends when you're an entrepreneur. It's just that, you know, some people, very few reach the extraordinary success level. You know, most entrepreneurs own small businesses and you know those great big ones where examples are held up like Elon Musk, I mean he's one in a few billion, but I wouldn't trade lives with them either.

So speaking of the different levels of it, because I know some people, I want to be very clear with the audience that there's nothing wrong with if you want to have a local shop. There's nothing wrong with that. And I think some people think anyone who starts a business wants to have this multinational conglomerate. And there's a lot of great people I've met who that's not the case. They just don't want to work for someone else. They want to do their thing. But, but there are the people who.

Want to strive for it. And I feel like a lot of them hit these walls, myself included.

When I interview on shows, I love when people go, when did you start your company? I'm like, which time?

There's always learning and growing and all this stuff going on. So what would you say separates those one in a billion, one in a million from the local business or even the mid sized business?

Probably obsession.

Okay.

You know, you don't build a multi billion dollar company casually, okay. And as a result there's also a lot of collateral damage in your life as you're on the way there, meaning divorces, your kids.

A lot of things. It takes a toll. And I think that, you know, you have to be obsessed to build a huge company. Now I'm not saying there's anything the matter with that, that's the choice that you make, but realize that you're going to pay for that.

And do you think you can build something that big without catastrophic fallout?

No. And I don't think you can point out any examples of. Well, you have to define catastrophic fallout. I'm just saying that there is a large personal cost for some people. Maybe that's offset by either the power that they gain or the money that they gain. But I think that.

It'S, I think it's really tough. And so I think when you build a huge business, and I have, you know, I have clients that have built multi billion dollar global companies, you know, there's, there is an obsession with doing that. That is a necessary component because of what it takes to build a business that big. And, and again, that's just, I mean, that's just not for me, but that I'm happy there's people that do it. I'm happy that there's people that pioneer new areas and have that kind of obsession. I don't happen to have that. And I think that what you're talking about is really interesting because you can have a relatively small business, make very good income for what you're doing and.

That affords you different kinds of opportunities. But I think what happens is there's a kind of, our culture.

Puts up this mythology that you're only really successful if you've made barge loads of money and as a result you're not really successful if you have a small business. Well, if you're able to pretty much own the freedom of your own time and you're able to associate with the people that you want to and live the kind of life that you want to, that's successful. That could mean that you have, you know, that you have a business that does three million bucks and you're taking home three quarters of a million or a half a million a year and doing quite well with that, you know, so not everybody has to, you know, ascend to the level of a James Bond villain, you know, who's looking to control the world and, and have billions of dollars.

Excellent response.

Exactly. Yes. Are you petting your white cat in your lap?

I have a turtle, but.

Spike.

So yeah, I think that that's why it's so important to define what success is. And that by the way, doesn't mean that your definition doesn't change over time. That's just part of being human and being on that lifelong journey.

Yeah. And what I wanted to say is I think it's such a blessing we live in a time and a place where we can casually talk about. Yeah, maybe it's doing, I was going to say 5 to 10 million a year. And that's still a small business.

Yeah.

I never once thought when I was growing up in school that like, you know, a million bucks was like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And now it's like, I don't even know the actual definition, but I've heard anywhere from 20 to 50 to 100 million and less than 500 employees is like a small business.

Well, a mid cap business when you're in the financial world and I position companies for sale, so I work with those companies. Mid cap is like Lazard, right? That's right up to 499 million. That's not, you know, that's a I.

Don'T really consider that mid size. That seems pretty big to me.

Well, it is. You know, it is, but it's not. If you compare it to Apple or Amazon or Ralph Lauren, you know, I mean, and there's big differences between those companies.

Yeah. And Victoria's Secret at its height, where were they? They were billions.

Oh, yeah. I think there was somewhere between 6 and 8 billion a year, you know, in gross revenue and a publicly traded company, you know, part of limited brands.

Yeah.

So, you know, I think you have to, you know, I think that that's all relative. Yes, exactly. And relative to what you want to do, what kind of sacrifices you're prepared to make. Because, you know, the question arises, yeah, I can get X, but what do I have to give up to get it?

And do I really understand what getting it is? You know, so what are the stakes emotionally?

You know, what are the stakes emotionally in terms of that pursuit? And, you know, it's just pretty recent.

Where the issues of mental health have become really to the forefront in our culture. So whether it was.

You know, whether it was Camille the gymnast.

I hope I'm not screwing up her name. I'm just blanking on it right now. Biles, you know, from the Olympics.

Yeah. She didn't do six out of seventh or whatever.

Yeah, yeah. Because she was. She had the presence of mind and bravery and probably enough support around her to realize what she had to do was take care of herself. And that was what was really important. And then I just read a thing a couple days ago.

Jonah Hill is basically taking a indeterminate leave of absence from his career. The. And he was very open and said that the anxiety that he's challenged with and the things he's dealing with, he realized that he really has to get himself and take care of himself first.

Yeah.

And I respect that. As opposed to the person that's constantly on the go, constantly going, and they're unaware of the damage possibly that they're doing to themselves or to their family or whatever. So, you know, I think that that, that awareness that is growing is important. And it's like the old thing that you hear on the airplane, which is, you know, if you're traveling with a child, put on your face mask first, because if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of anybody else in your life either.

Very, very true. And like you said, that ripple effect, you know, there's the people guy. I got to focus on myself. But they don't even realize what it's Doing to friends, family, and people around them. I remember hearing years ago, you know, hurting people. Hurt people.

Yes.

You know, if you, if you're. It's unfortunate because I don't want to be like if you're toxic because there's a lot of people who, they don't even know what's going on. They just know something's not right and they don't know how to handle it. They don't know the people we know. They don't have the whatever support network. And I feel bad for them because it's like there's so many people out there that want help nowadays. But I know what it's like to feel like I'm alone. There's no one here whatsoever. Now what?

They just try whatever they want to try, you know, no judgment on them, but it's like they're just trying to figure it out. They just don't have the right network.

Well, correct. I think that's, that's right. So, I mean, this all ties back to what we're talking about in terms of entrepreneurship is. I think it's also important.

Goals can always be temporary and you can always, you know, move those goal posts, as they say. But I think that it's really important to discover what is it that makes you happy, what is it that makes you fulfilled. And I was very fortunate. My parents were both entrepreneurs.

Oh, what did they do?

My mom and dad were retailers in Akron, Ohio. My sister Janice is a retailer. She has her own store in a very high end women's fashion store in Charleston, South Carolina. And you know, my sister and I were brought up in an entrepreneurial household. And what was great was it was both my mom and dad. So there was never an issue. I never had an issue with a woman being an authority figure. And I'm not talking about as mom, I'm talking about in business.

Yeah.

And so, you know, growing up with that and with my sister starting her own business, that just seemed normal because that's what I grew up in. And you know, I did more business than my parents ever did. Now it's also adjusted for inflation and everything else. But, you know, I think discovering or remembering what you did when you were a kid, what made you happy, what did you do? And I used to, Mario, when I was a kid, I had a movie theater in the basement of the house, which, you know, had a 8 millimeter projector. I would get my sister's stereo and, and I had a tape recorder and I would put together both a musical soundtrack and sound Effects, because the films that I rented were silent. And I would draw these posters and then have one of these, you know, printers where I could put the printers. Like, you get these little metal bands and you stick. The print is really tedious process. Make these posters and distribute them around the neighborhood and get 12, 15 kids, 18 kids, like the Little Rascals, you know, in the basement, we'd sell. I'd sell popcorn and candy bars, and they'd watch the films. And I remember how much fun I had finding the right music, put, mixing sound effects, doing all that. And I was. I. I was like, 11, 12, something like that, when I had. Okay, jump ahead.

I remember it was my 30th birthday, and I was working late that night putting together a film and editing. And I thought, wow, this is what I dug doing 20 years ago. You know, now it's many years past that. But those were the things that were fun to me. And I think if you reflect on what do you really enjoy doing? What gives you fulfillment? What's fun to you? I've always tried to make whatever it is I do fulfill that criteria.

That's kind of surreal. I've always loved video photography, loved taking pictures. And that was just my thing. And that's why I went into video production, special effects, animation. And, you know, when you said the adult job versus the adult business versus the kid business, it was very similar. With me, mine was a Ninja Turtles flip book in a. I think it was Cinnamon Life. And I was like, oh, my. I knew the picture was. It was a photo, but when you flipped it, it was moving, you know? And I was like, this is so fascinating. And I love drawing stuff like that. Another thing, I never started a movie theater. That is really cool. I loved movies. I sold the VHS back in the day when we had those. And it was one of the first business things that I go, this is how you make 100% profit. You ask for Blockbuster gift cards. You have no overhead expense. You buy them for four or five bucks, sell them for eight or nine. And the presentation, I remember in psychology class because I always love psychology and helping people figuring out how they think. I remember having to do a presentation, and I took like, five VHS here, five VH here. And I put my whatever the project was in the center. And the first thing the teacher goes was, what are the movies for? I go, I'm glad you asked. They're actually on sale. They're five bucks a piece or three for ten. I have this. He's like, are you for real? And I thought he's like, are you for real doing this in the middle of project? I go, no, they're for sale. Which ones do you want? I didn't say, should I take these down? You know, assume the sale. Which ones do you want? He bought meat, the parents, and a few others. But I always liked just finding things to help people. You know, I started a lawn care business, and that was another way to help people. I just knew I didn't want to have a job. And I'm so glad you're talking about doing the things that are a natural segue into it, because, yeah, who wouldn't like movies, drawing and doing this, you know, fashion. I've thought about starting a label before. People actually thought I had one for all the suits I've worn over the years. They're like, where do you get these? Are they yours? I'm like, yeah, if you want to think that, go for it.

Yeah, it's, it's. It's funny. I, too, used to make flip books. You know, I loved making flip books. And, you know, that was, as a matter of fact, the old Nickelodeons. If you look back at film history, those were essentially flip books. They weren't reels of film. They were single pictures that were dropped back really fast. And that's why they also had that kind of stuttering motion. But they were. They were really fun, you know, to do. And you called it lawn care. I called it mowing lawns. You know, there were. In growing up in Akron. I mean, you're the Midwest also.

Absolutely. And you mentioned Wisconsin.

Yeah, that's where I went to college. University of Wisconsin in Madison. And, you know, when I was a kid, the summer was a spring, and summer were the time to mow lawns. And that's how I made money. And when there was a snow day.

Oh, absolutely.

Going door to door, shoveling driveways, you.

Know, that was green cash and white cash.

There you go. That's right.

Probably shouldn't say white cash now as an adult, but.

As in snow.

Yeah.

And so, you know, it's. It's funny because I was always trying to figure out ways that I could make money doing something that I enjoyed, but also to have some spending money for the weekends and stuff like that. So, you know, my parents taught me early on that, you know, you work for what you get. Yeah. So that was just part of the. Part of what I learned growing up. There's no harsh thing, you know, it was just, you know, you work, you're paid for your work, and then you do what you want, you know, with that money. And that was very, you know, that was an important, basic but good lesson, you know, in terms of that. Because then I had to be resourceful in how I would do things. And I knew that people paid other people to shovel the snow on their driveway. Why not pay a kid from the neighborhood to do.

Absolutely, you know, that's why hire locals now.

Well, yeah, that's true. And I wish there was more of them.

It seems like there's a lost art, like if, you know, everyone wants to be a TikTok star, a YouTube star, and it's like there's a ton of people looking for great people to just trust them. Yeah, I think anyone can do the work, but when you're hiring, I just had to let someone go. And I'm bringing some new people on board. But it's like I just, I think the skill set, anyone can learn. Obviously, the more you know, the better. But I just want some people I can trust. Most of my team has been 10, 15 years. I've at least known them. Some have worked with me 8, 10 years, 2, 3. Like, I don't like. I like people I like. And if I can't trust you and I don't like you, I'm probably not going to hire you.

Well, and trust is an essential glue in business. If somebody's going to pay you to deliver a product or service, then they need to trust you. You can make that first sale and you can of course lose the trust because the sale doesn't live up to the promise. But I think that trust is an important, very important component of business. And if you're an entrepreneur and you're looking to grow a business, you have to. The only way you grow a business is if people pay for what you're doing or what you're offering. And the only way they'll pay for it a second time is if they were satisfied the first time and you're.

Bringing more value than it costs them.

Well, or at least the perception of yes, you know, they're happy with the purchase and you know, that's what's important. And that brings about trust. You know, you grow. You look at that then from a 35,000 foot perspective and then you start realizing that if they trust your business, you can start offering other things and they're going to be much more welcoming or open to trying those other things you're offering too, because you've won their trust. That's called licensing, you know, or setting up, you know, other businesses. So that Nike started off just selling running shoes and then they got into apparel and they got into all these different product lines. And the reason they were able to do that is because people trusted the running shoes and they trusted what they bought. So whenever you see a recurring label, you know, whether it's Nike or Ralph Lauren or Tiffany or whatever, they've established a trust in their brand and people are open to trying new product. They aren't all going to work, but you know, people will be open to trying other things that you're offering if you have won their trust.

Like with, I'm thinking of the ipod with Apple. When that came out.

Microsoft had the Zune or whatever, no one really cared. Apple had their version of. You know, Obviously they're both MP3 players. Oh no, mine's not MP3 players. An iPad, whatever.

Well, the interesting thing is that the ipod, what you're talking about is actually that sort of took over because of Apple's brilliant marketing savvy. Was not the first such product out there. The first product was the Walkman by Sony. And I was one of the first people to have a Walkman. I met with Akira Morita from Sony, okay? And I was.

I was one of the directors covering Fashion Week in Paris. And so when I met Morita and his wife, who was very much into fashion, they gave me a Walkman. At that time it was cassette tape and they gave them out to I don't know how many people, maybe a hundred. They weren't called influencers back then, but it created this curiosity. They wanted me because I was covering like 15 different collections and they gave it to high profile fashion journalists and photographers and so on who were going to a bunch of different shows. And people are wondering, not just fashion people with just people on the street, what are they walking around with headphones on for? What's going on there? And so they went with influencers, if you will. And that got the Walkman a lot of traction. They built that up. But then when Marita died.

The Walkman pretty much died and, and they stopped innovating. And you know, Sony made computers. They could have done that little hard drive, you know, went from cassette tapes to CDs to then just a hard drive. And the Walkman came in brilliantly marketed. They took a whole different approach than Sony did and created this product that for years was just a juggernaut. And it became like, like Walkman was, it became the generic name for that product. But you know, Sony was essentially the Apple of its era. It had the coolest one.

I remember when I was doing those lawns, I had the walkman on. Listening to a lot of it was self development stuff. It wasn't music all the time, but.

It was just cool. And then when the ipod came out, I'm thankful for it. Don't get me wrong, we're, you know, it kind of helped bring about the industry for podcasting. I know it wasn't the first thing. Some people think it was and it was around prior, but it absolutely accelerated it. And I mean you're just so casually covering all these names and big companies and everything and it's kind of cool. But at the same time, at the end of the day, how big of a role does that in a vision, innovation play in the industry you're in? Or do you think you can just skirt by without it?

I think that it's, that's a really interesting and complex question and I'll tell you why.

For decades, Bell telephone controlled communications, both business and residential. You had to have a Bell telephone. They had a monopoly. The monopoly was broken up and as a result what happened was the biggest innovation in telephones was in my lifetime when I was younger was it went from a rotary phone to a touch tone phone. It's not that big a deal, you know, it's. And, but that was it once the monopoly was taken apart. And by the way, Bell would also.

Sue any company to try to do any accessory that went with the phone. So for instance, there was this plastic little bowl that went at the bottom where you talk into the phone and it would keep conversations private so the person at the desk next to you couldn't hear what you were saying.

That's kind of cool. I was thinking of that rest that you can props up on your ear so you can walk around like.

Yeah. But then, you know, when you're at work, you didn't walk around. You might have bent over to open up a file drawer, but you weren't walking around with the phone. They weren't wireless. It was still had a cable to the phone. And so the innovation in kind, you know, 80 years was really minimal.

Once the monopoly was broken. Like that item I told you about, they sued the company that made that little plastic ball that fit at the bott them and put them out of business and that's what they would do.

So think about the innovation where now they aren't even really phones, they're computers that have a phone function. Right. You know, and think how much you can pack into that. You know, there's, you're carrying around more computing power than what it took to land the first lunar module in your pocket, you know, and however it's affected the camera business and you know, everything else. But so we've hit a real technological era. And so upgrades in software and continuing to innovate, upgrades in, you know, the phone design, which has really slowed down. You know, there used to be huge upgrades all the time. You had to buy the new model. Well now people are holding on to their phones longer, you know, so Apple's waiting longer, Samsung's waiting longer to release new models because it gets pretty expensive if you're spending 14, $1800 on their top of the line phone. It's a status symbol for a lot of people and they want it to last a little bit longer. But innovations crucial for any business, you do have to divide, define innovation. Because innovation isn't just a new product, but how do you make something work better, enhance the value of it, make it desirable. So people are going to upgrade. Part of that comes from a certain planned obsolescence which was started by Henry Ford. And what I mean by that is they don't want their phones to last 20 years. Could they? Yeah, but they don't want them to because they want you to buy new phones. And that's true with computers, that's true with all of this stuff. So the innovation's got to be seductive enough and you know that what they build them with aren't. It's just not going to last that long because they're trying to keep the.

Cost down too with the materials. I remember microwaves, dryers, fridges, all that stuff. Some of them would be 30, 40, 50 years old. And now it's like unless you're spending thousands and thousands of dollars. Yeah, maybe it'll last 10.

Well, that's the planned obsolescence. You know, Henry Ford used to go around scrap yards where cars were dumped and he looked at his cars and he'd say that, you know, well, the pistons gave out but the engine block was still good. So what he would do is reverse engineer whatever was the first part to fail. He wanted everything else to pretty much fail around the same time because then you have to buy a new car, you know. And so I didn't know that. Yeah, it wasn't that he wanted to make the cars better. It said he wanted people to buy, have to buy more of them more often, you know, so it's, it's really, it's really interesting when you look at the history of business. You look at the history of some of these companies. And you know what they did. And that extends to pharmaceutical companies.

You know, just about all you have to have a reason to keep purchasing. And planned obsolescence is a big part of that, you know, I mean, when you had the landline at home, you had the same phone for the whole time you were growing up, I'm sure.

Yeah.

You know, and that's.

I actually remember the rotary too. It was always entertaining, but kind of annoying when you had to reach someone quickly.

See, I wanted a rotary. I wanted a rotary cell phone. And the first app that I downloaded was the kind of ring I heard when I was a kid. You know, I mean, people that were. Music would play or whatever. I didn't, I wanted a real phone ring like what I grew up with. So I always, I always, I still have that. I, you know, I love that. But yeah, it's really interesting. When you look at technology, you look at innovation and you also look at the other side of innovation, which is.

Innovation is, is crucial for companies to continue and to survive. And innovation, by the way, can be telling a new story. If you're making a movie, you know, I mean there's. Innovation comes in many forms. It's not just technological.

Do you think it could be your team too? Not just new products or a marketing campaign, but innovating your team and how the interculture works.

That's essential to innovation. You can't, it's no one, it's not a one person job. So if you're innovating for a major company, you have to give them a compelling reason to invest in the R and D necessary and the risk necessary to introduce a new product. So you need a team that is aligned and that's really crucial in terms of building a business. And that's true even in a small company. You know, you want people who are all sharing the same mission. So innovation is, I believe.

A commitment and a mindset within a company to want to constantly be iterating on what they're doing to make it better, more useful, you know, whatever.

Have to be updating it. Don't have the phone on the wall for the next 20 years.

That's exactly right. That's right.

And I appreciate you sharing what you did about Henry Ford. I mean, I live in Detroit, Motor City, grew up here, did not know that. And I've watched and even gone to some of the places and everything. It's reminded me of Jay Abraham's like three ways to grow business. I'm like, that is a very interesting Way to increase buying frequency.

Well, the other thing that they did.

You know, I mean, we're. Well, I'm happy to go in any direction that, that our conversation takes us. I don't want to get too far afield for your audience. But the other thing that was go wherever you want.

I'm enjoying this. And I, it's adding value.

Well, thank you. Is that, you know, I, I wondered, well, so why were the automobile companies in Detroit, Motor City, as they call it, you know, why was that? And you know, the stock answers. Well, there were, there were ports there, you know, for shipping and so on. Well, that's not really why Ford was from Detroit. And so that's why the businesses started there. We have a lot of port cities that have friendlier weather than Detroit.

So you look at why companies started where they started is also really interesting. But there were literally a few hundred automobile companies at the early part of the 20th century.

But you also had all the steel from Ohio and Pennsylvania and the pits and.

Yes, that's right, that's right. And so, you know, what was interesting was that what they did, I mean, some of the car companies failed just because they were not good. Other ones failed because General Motors and Ford were able to shut them out of the market. And you know, it was cutthroat. And it, you know, came down to just a few automobile makers. So, you know, it's, it was a killer business. You know, I mean, Ford sent in basically a militia to defeat unions.

But he also was smart that he priced cars so his employees could afford them because he knew that creating a volume business was the future of the automobile.

And the five dollar. Five dollars a day working.

Five dollars an hour.

Plus the. What was the other thing? I think he is credited with the eight hour workday. Eight for work, eight for sleep, eight for recreation.

Yeah, I didn't know that. That's it. You know, that that's interesting because I.

Think a lot of the companies at the time were like, you know, they were getting in trouble because they were working the people so hard unwillingly. I think now it's more of a. We still want to push the limits like we were talking about with the mental health. It's like we want to push the limits, but we don't want to break the rules. So we're not gonna force you to. But if you do show up, there will be an incentive as a thank you, so people feel compelled to do it. But I know companies back at that time, they were literally just like horrible working conditions. And if I'm correct. I believe he was one of the first ones to say, hey, we're gonna make it somewhat enjoyable. We're gonna pay you. I think most people were paying 150 to 250 a day. And he was like, pretty much, screw it, let's just double it or triple it, whatever it was. And people were just flocking to them.

Well, one of the things was, which is very smart business, is who's going to buy the cars if they're too expensive. You're going to have a very limited market. So the more that you get the cars bought by a wider public, and when you're employing as many people as them and.

People see that many more Fords on the road, that must mean they're a better car, you know, so.

There'S market advertising and marketing.

That's right. That's right. So, you know, all of that stuff is fascinating. And the interesting thing is, and I, I do this in my class that's in my book is, is breaking down the walls between these different businesses because the practices and the protocols of businesses are very much the same. And that's whether you're talking about, you know, you referenced Pennsylvania and Ohio. The steel that was used, you know, well, that's what we now call supply chain. And so supply chain and difficulties in the supply chain and shipping issues, you know, have caused inflation in our current economy. Scarcity of goods which raises prices, that sort of a thing. And the thinking about that is no different than it was in Henry Ford's day. You know, it's very. It's really interesting when you break down, so what's the real thing that's causing these issues that we're having to deal with? And they're the same thing, you know.

So I think it's always going to fluctuate regardless of the economic times or the era.

Well, fluctuate in terms of scarcity, demand, what the market will bear, competitive landscape. You know, if you're, if you're a big enough company, you can cut prices to basically put your competition out of business.

Yeah.

And that has gone on and continues to go on. And now it's just another business strategy, you know. You know, what can you do? The thing that happens, this is true in drug companies, and it's true also in a lot of tech companies, is innovation.

Stops. And the way that they innovate, so to speak, is that they buy up smaller companies who are potential competition, and they buy them up so that they can enhance their bottom line rather than be a competitor. So that's why Facebook, you know, bought.

Instagram thinking of them and also the Oculus a few years ago.

Yeah.

For the VR stuff. And if you, if you look back, it's like you see they buy up 10, 10 companies in the VR space then magically the next year, hey, we're doing this Metaverse thing, right?

That's right. And so the tactics don't change in business. And see that's what I think is so interesting is if you can look at things with a broader view and knock down those walls which are really artificial, you know, between what businesses are, you get. I think it fosters a greater understanding and it also as a business person increases your opportunities. Because maybe in thinking that way, just like you, you thought of Oculus and see that I love context and I love what are the antecedents to that, you know, what came before that. So you know, Most people under 35 don't know the Walkman but they know the ipod which is, that's now gone. It's because you don't need it because of your phone. Right. But in what, what's. What Apple did that was so interesting. This is an interesting contrast in advertising and marketing is first Sony was the only game in town. So they captured that market and created a market for your own personal life soundtrack as you walk down the street. Right. Or exercise. When it was co opted by Apple, you know where the two were advertising at the same time. And in a head to head competition, what Sony did was show you the compactness of the design, how much stuff they were fitting into that small space. And you know, that marvel of technology.

You don't need the boombox anymore on your shoulder.

That's right.

Fits in your hand.

But the interesting thing is, is that what Sony did, which was I think, I mean what Apple did in contrast to Sony, which was showing the technology and how compact and they would show the drawing of it, the engineer drawing. And you know all that about the Walkman. Sony showed that Apple showed the fun you had when you were listening to.

Your ipod, thousand songs in your pocket.

Exactly. And then that kind of animated thing of the guy dancing.

Yeah. With the cord from the earbuds.

Exactly, exactly. And so you know, so what Sony did was show the technology and feature that people don't care. And what Apple did is they showed the fun, the user experience which is how Apple from day one built themselves, you know, they, they stole the operating system. The.

What you see is what you get. Graphical user interface, the gui Xerox. That's correct. That's right. And that was a great court case because Apple tried to sue Microsoft for stealing their operating system. And at one point, it's probably one of the only funny things that Bill Gates said was how could we steal it from you? You stole it from Xerox.

I don't mean to interrupt, but this is going so well. We're going to turn it into a two parter. So join us in part two.