0431 | Josh Ramsey

Hi, I'm Josh Ramsey, business development manager@clearbrand.com and you're listening to EA interview, EA.

Interviews episode 431, inspiration, transformation, success stories and the imperfect action round. Seven days a week. Join Mario Ficcini for today's expert authority effect interview. Are you maximizing your marketing? This is one of my favorite, most exciting topics to talk about because I find there's like a couple of different groups of people in the entrepreneurial realm. There's the people who absolutely love marketing, know they should be doing something and give it a fair shot and that's where your experts are at and everything. And then there's the people who, I'm going to use a strong word, abhor it. They absolutely are like, I don't want to do marketing, but why don't I have any more leads and customers? So I'm, I'm bringing in Josh Ramsey and he is with Clear Brand and it's a certified story brand agency. And what's unique about them is they have data, they take a scientific approach with their marketing flywheel. And we're going to be unpacking that in today's episode right after we thank our sponsor. Every business needs a book, including yours. And that's why I'm launching my new book to help you, regardless of where you think your current writing abilities are. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction, lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. Once again, that's eapublishingmethodbook.com Here it is, ladies and gentlemen, Josh Ramsey. Josh, how are you feeling today?

Pretty heroic after that intro. Really enjoying the production value of your podcast and looking forward to adding value to your listeners. Man.

Yeah, I know you have so much to add. I appreciate that.

I always just be honest and speak from the heart because honestly, I don't know about you, but do you find that there's even a third segment of people or that there's really just the people who want to market more, but they might not know what they're doing and the people who abhor it. Because I've never really met anyone that's like, well, I like marketing, but only two days a week. But you know, in special events and stuff like that, it's like they're either for it or they're against it. Have you found anything different?

Yeah, I think the third wheel would be they just don't know anything about it. You know, it reminds me of a funny speech I Saw from Arnold and Arnold, get Arnold Schwarzenegger and he gets on the stage and he says there's five great, five steps to make any great business. The first thing you do is got to do something awesome. The second step, you got to talk about it. The third step, you got to talk about it. The first step, you got to talk about it. So I think there's just some people that don't get that. That don't get that it's not enough to build it. They won't come. You got to talk about it. You got to maximize them that you. Yeah, we got a whole bunch to unpack. But you do, in essence, you've got to talk about it. And some people just don't know that. I didn't for a long time. I'm serial entrepreneur and learned some hard knocks along the way. So very happy to be helping your listeners understand how they can talk about it.

That is hilarious. Yeah, I could go in so many segues, I'm trying to behave here. So the third one would be the aloof person who's just. They don't know if they should do it or not. They're just so inexperienced that.

Yeah, don't know how to do it. Don't know why it's important. Important, don't know where to start. So just avoid it.

So they haven't done it to get burned yet to know enough if they don't like it or want to give it another shot. Okay, I forgot about that. Yeah, yeah. The very, very starting point. Who would you say you deal with most of the time? Is it the, the people who have done enough of it that know there's all this stuff out there and just need help? Or do you focus more on people that go, I really don't like this. Can you show me a better way so that I do?

Yeah. So it's across the board. We work with a lot of different types of clients, but because we kind of started out as a story branding marketing agency, helping brands write their story, helping them get their brand script out there. And so we do attract a lot of startups that are launching out of brand and they're wanting to build it out from the bottom up. But at the same time we do brand takeovers as well and establish businesses that are looking to, you know, take their marketing to the next level. So it's pretty much across the board. But you know, definitely our marketing agency is, is attracting clientele that are looking to level up. So they're on a certain level, they realize there's a ceiling that they're hitting. Maybe their revenue is, is not growing as, as they would have predicted or another agency has guaranteed. And then they come to us and we look at, you know, how do we dig into, into what the evidence is around this growth, this revenue and what do we do about it? So that's where we start then applying the marketing, the clear brand marketing flywheel and seeing how we can help.

Now this is a loaded. And I'll just be honest, it's a trick question. Do you all, do you suggest people start with like social media, direct mail, video, online, offline? Because I want to get into the marketing flywheel and I really, because I know we can talk about that for hours, but I want to meet people where they're at and I have a fee. I want to make sure they realize when they're listening to this, it's not going to be about a certain social versus this one. And I talk about. People have to get their message right and then figure out the medium because too many people start with the medium and they're like, oh, I saw you have a podcast, I should start a podcast. Oh, I saw you have this great book, I should do a book. And it's like, you don't even know what you're talking about. You know, flesh this out first. So joking aside, you know, how do you rope people and tell them, hey, we're not going to start with this and let them know this isn't even the right starting point.

Yeah. So one of the first things we say off the bat is if you came to us for the answers, you came to the wrong people. We're not going to tell you exactly what you need to do off the bat. What we have done at Clearbrand is we've built a system of questions and, and a system that can consistently reproduce results that we're seeing across market segments, across industries, categories. And so we're going to start with those questions. We're going to dig really deep into your brand, into your business. We're going to really understand it before we decide to do anything. And you know, as you, as you alluded in your kind of your trick non trick question was it's super easy to get busy being busy marketing. Right. You know, you get it in your head, I gotta write an ebook. Boom, six months writing a 300, about.

Six hours for an ebook.

Okay, let's say a book. Let's say a book. Or let's say 50 blogs. You get this idea in your head or you need to grow up fast. And all Of a sudden, all your time is spent. You're busy, you're chasing your tail, you're not sure why, but it's easier than actually stopping and going, am I doing the right thing? So you keep going. So we don't start with any assumptions, with any clear answers. We go in with some very profound questions, then we build out that strategy and then we prioritize based on limitations and then we look to execute. So marketing is definitely something that needs a strategy and that's what we put the flywheel together to help us uncover before we get busy being busy.

Yeah, I love that. I love that you have it structured in a process. When I'm talking to my author clients, the first thing we dive into before doing the book and the chapters is like, tell me your process. If you can't articulate, here's even some bullet points. I'm not even talking steps or chapters, but when it's just all over the place. And I love what you just said about, you know, getting so busy. Those 50 blogs. Oh, I'm going to do a blog a week and commit to it this year. Who are you talking to? Who's the blog for? Yeah.

I'm going to really try to behave, but I know we could go on so many tangents with this, so.

Yeah, we really could.

What's the first question of the marketing flywheel? I want to know this.

Yeah, so we've got a big question on each one of the three pillars of the flywheel. So this we could summarize it in three minutes. We could unpack it in a three day workshop. So what I'd like to do is really just lay out the three kind of pillars of the marketing flywheel and then you can just get curious. Whatever you want to. Whatever you want.

I'm very curious. What are the three colors?

Yeah, so the, the reason we chose the word flywheel is that a flywheel is a big heavy spinning disc. Right. And it's got a solid axle. And what a flywheel is is that if you put in consistent actions, you get cumulative reactions. So it gets faster and faster and faster and spins and holds all this energy that can then be used. So that's why the word flywheel is important. Then the first kind of component, and I say the first one, but they are leading one into the other. The first one is building memories. Marketing is about building memories. This is comes out of the research that only about 5% of the market are ready to buy right now. So for the vast majority of your customers, they are going to move into that buying moment in the future. And they need to remember you. They need to remember what you do, what you solve, where they can find you. So pillar one, build memories. Pillar two, maximize availability. You gotta be on the shelf. Whether it's digital or physical. You've gotta be available if someone is reaching out to buy you or your category. Third pillar, reach the market. So now you gotta go get in front of all of those customers that don't know you exist yet that might not even be looking for the solution that you offer. That's it.

I like that. I especially like the analogy being on the shelf. That's definitely publisher, book related. That's a very good analogy. If someone reaches out to you, you better be there.

Yeah, yeah. So we generally start in building memories, like if we come into a company. So let's start there. As I said, we cut our teeth on story. So the two components of building memories, we want to make sure that you are telling a clear story. You have a clear brand story. That means that your customers look at your marketing and they go, first line of text. I know exactly what you do. So if you, if you sell running shoes, don't put the first line of text in your messaging. Perseverance, achieving excellence. We sell running shoes. Next line of text. So you can beat your personal best and not get sore feet. You know, we need to simplify marketing. It doesn't have to be this very abstract idea. And it comes down to literally how our brains function. And the reason story works on everyone in every sector, in every category is that all of our brains, more or less. If you're a human and you're listening to this, it is similar to mine. And story is a natural progression of cause and effect so that you can understand. And when you have a clear message, then I as the listener can go, cool. I understand what this does, and I know where to store it in my brain. So if this problem comes up in the future, I go, oh, yeah, great. I know I can solve this. Boom. Second pillar is design being distinct. There's a lot of talk about being differentiated in the marketplace, but from the customer's perspective, everyone's differentiated. It's kind of like snowflakes. Everyone looks the same. So you want to be distinct, you want to be recognizable.

How do you make it distinct and recognizable for someone going, okay, I get what you said with the being clear. That's going to make this a lot simpler because I think so many people think you need to be fancy, but when it comes into that unique ability and making it different and the unique value prop and all these different things. I think that's where a lot of businesses just struggle because it's like, oh, well, we do it different because of this. It's like, well, we make you pull up to the left side of the building versus the right. So I don't know, just something like, it's not really a differentiator, but in their mind, I love this one. Our proprietary process.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which can in some instances mean we have a website that we pay to do that for us, and that is our proprietary process.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not against it.

Because there are for sure. For sure.

I'd say there's aspects of my business that literally are from how we designed it and coded it and different stuff with our software. And I'd say there's aspects of everything. But to make it sound like you have the KFC recipe or DuPont's Teflon coating or Coke's formula.

I think there's a lot of people that just add that word in there and go, okay, we're different now.

Well, when everyone says it, yeah, exactly. So when we talk about design in terms of building memories, you can really get great evidence on this. You can do an audit. You can get your brand colors together, your logo, your brand assets, whatever it is, your tagline, whatever it is that you are building memories around. Right. Remember, that's that your. Even your brand story or your messaging. That is a memory that is being built in your prospect or your customer's mind. So you can do audits. You know, you can get your new logo if you're doing an iteration. I really don't recommend rebrands, you know, out and out, full color changes and everything. Cause you're losing all those memory structures. So we might initially think that it's Coca Cola's, you know, amazing recipe, but it's also the memories that they've built. Right. And we can unpack this.

Yeah, exactly. Santa Claus. And we're kind of spinning around the flywheel here, but we're touching on reaching the market with uses, building connections to uses. Same product, different uses. You drink Coke when you're with friends. You drink Coke when you want to remember friends. You drink Coke on a hot day. You drink Coke at Christmas time when it's cold. You drink Coke to recover from a sporting event. You drink Coke to prepare for all of these uses that Coca Cola's marketing have built connections in the market's mind. Okay. So we're kind of moving around a Little bit. But that's the key piece here. Do an audit on your brand assets. Are they distinctive? When you ask a sample of 100 focus group members and there's great software that can do this with real people online. Do they do more than 50% of them say hey, that looks like one of your competitors or whatever the case may be. So you can do an audit, you can check it out, you can see what your competitors are doing. So you need to really understand.

What kind of memories you're building in your prospects because this makes all of your downstream efforts more efficient and more effective. It's going to reduce that marketing waste which can get out of control when, especially when you start earning money and you've got bigger budgets. Scale up the wastage. So very important.

Yeah. And what's nice is a lot of stuff nowadays you can, I love going, going, going into stuff, going. Okay, this is what we did from campaign A. This is the results, this is the roi. How can we just tweak a few things and yeah, perfect.

AB testing, absolutely gotta be there, you know, and I've been there, I've been there writing out the email campaign and ah, the AB test tab is there. Oh, I'm just too tired to do. No, you gotta get, you gotta get consistent, you gotta build systems. Right? And that's what, that's what we've really dug into in the last five or six years of clearbrand is building these systems around understanding how to build memories, be distinctive, you know, tell a clear brand story. So that's building memories I want to keep circling because we want to keep moving around the flywheel and we'll get into more areas of depth as you get curious.

So what's the next then.

Key question for building memories just before I move on? How can we repeatedly get noticed with a clear story and our distinctive design? So we'll come back to these questions in the summary at the end because it's great for listeners to just apply them. But let's move on to maximizing availability. So the big piece here, be easy to find and be easy to buy. Now you might say, well that's obvious. But if we are not easy to find again, someone says, well you gotta rank number one on organic in Google. Well you do some keyword research. Turns out that lists, there's a big push in Google now to do lists. Right. If you want to rank for wedding venue in Colorado, that's where our headquarters are based. I'm part of the remote team. Then you're not going to beat some Website that's all about weddings that has pulled 10 of the best kind of venues in the US and put them into a mega list with all of those keywords with all of these backlinks. So you need to get on that.

List with a high names that high. The score, the index score where you.

Know they're domain authority.

Yes, yes. 60, 70 or 80. And it's like, I'm going to start a blog this week.

Yeah, yeah, I'm going to start a blog this week.

You better be buying a domain that's been nurtured for 10 years and have all these articles ready to go with a prayer.

Yeah, exactly. So there the strategy is, how do I be easy to find? Well, I can get on that list or I can get in a directory. What are the low lying fruits that I can be as easy to find as possible. And a key here is easy to find for anyone buying your category. So a lot of businesses think about, well, when do people want to buy me? And that is making too many assumptions. You got to go, when do people want to buy my category? Because that's going to give you more insights into where they might be looking.

Would you say that's because that's what they're actually searching for?

Yeah. So, you know, if, if I'm Advil and I want to be easy to find, I might be trying to rank for buy Advil for pain, but people are most probably searching how do I stop pain? So it's the category of product or service that you are a part of. So you want to try and swim upstream, not get lost downstream. On kind of getting very specific about people just searching for this one thing that you have decided you do. There's, you know, it's because often the market uses products and service differently to how the businesses themselves speak about them. So we don't want to make a.

Version to the very specific Advil migraine or Tylenol migraine or whatever.

Yeah. And there, that's a great example of building connections with uses. So Advil is a good example here is that there was some indications that Advil was helping that could help with hot, I think strokes or my card something. It turned out not to be true and I'm not giving any medical advice. But they leveraged that and they started building a connection with heart health. So it was the same product but now there's a whole different market sector that's opened up because it's not just people that have back pain or migraines now. It's, you know, something to do with heart health. Turns out for them that they didn't have the evidence to back that up. But being easy to find, very useful. And then the second one, be easy to buy. So that's everything from the technicalities click through is reducing clicks, it's no load times, it's no complicated checkout. But also being easy to buy means your competitors, what pricing are they at? Don't get in the way of someone moving their hand out to that digital or physical shelf trying to grab you because something.

Amazon absolutely nailed it. And that's what everyone's thinking of.

And Amazon's a great example.

Consolidating the supply chain and have your own shipping.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And a great, a great, a great segue or a great. Other example of.

Big brands following this marketing law is Apple. Apple are so big, so well known, they could only sell on their website. Right. But do they. No, they sell on Amazon, they sell in Walmart, they sell on Verizon, they sell anywhere someone is looking to buy an Apple product, they are making sure they are on that shelf, digital, physical, so that they are easy to find and easy to buy. And if Apple is doing that, then I'm sorry, but this idea that we're only available through our, you know, TikTok live stream or I don't know what marketing Shopify store. Well, yeah, potentially. I mean, and again, there are limitations, right? You don't have the marketing budget, you don't have the human resource in your marketing department to go out and do everything. But you got to look at this and go, well, that's the goal. So how do we. What's the first version of this? And then you go around, you try and maximize your availability and then, you know, when you come back around to it and you build some revenue because that's the goal here. Revenue, Profitable customer acquisition is the primary goal of marketing efforts or it should be, you know, brand awareness, click through metrics, traffic. That's great. But if it's not growing your revenue, how does that scale? How do you take care of business?

So it's very important we keep focused on what we're trying to achieve.

Yeah, I like that you focus on the data too because there's a lot of people who. This is tough for me because we've done extensive web design over the years when I started out with the agency side of stuff. And we still do it for author clients, you know, on select basis and different things. But whenever I talk to designers and web people and just all this stuff where it's like, we'll do your logo. Okay, well, how much ROI is it going to generate? No one ever really has an answer. It's like, well, you need to do. It's going to be $35,000. Like what?

Yeah, yeah.

I love that you're focused on. And even other marketers, oh, we're going to run your ad campaign and they're looking at the click throughs but they're still not thinking of the profit and the revenue and margins and stuff like that. So why do you feel it's so important and that you have ethical in your company too? Because it's a whole other topic.

Yeah, that's a whole, that's a whole other topic. You know, I think the reason I put that in my, you know, my, my speaking bio that it's when businesses fail, people suffer. You know, I, we really, at Clear Brand, we really believe that entrepreneurs change the world. I'm calling in from Cape Town, South Africa. We've got rolling blackouts here because of a lack of service delivery, because of a lack of entrepreneurs and a, you know, people are suffering because businesses aren't thriving. So, you know, we need to be helping businesses grow and that should be the primary metric. And of course we want to do that in a way that is ethical. We're not, you know, doing anything that we wouldn't, you know, talk to our kids about if it was age appropriate. You know, there's, there's got to be some kind of hill, you know, hill to die on. And I think that's, you know, that's one of mine that I'm not going to be using black hat kind of tactics. If that language means anything to you or anything that's, that's unscrupulous. Yeah.

So, so but that's not just in entrepreneurs, but in marketing.

Yeah.

So you can have the whole spectrum of entrepreneurs and of course there's unscrupulous ones. But then it's like, okay, well what categories have more of it than most? And I just saw something the other day about, for publishing, since I'm a publisher, it was all about all the people doing scams on Amazon. Now taking your book, my book, everyone's book, copying it, putting a lower quality version and I'm like, oh, cool, now we get to deal with this. But marketing, traditionally, I would say.

A little in web design, but you know what I mean, it's just like, oh. Because marketing, you're anyone is basically saying, we'll get you more leads and profit and if you can't deliver on it, it can be interpreted wrong whether that was the intent or not.

Yeah, and you know, we, we also.

It comes back to this idea of the flywheel. Slow and consistent actions that are bringing in a cumulative result. So we are, we are not going to take on a client that says, okay, I want to, you know, I want to earn a million dollars in the next 30 days. You know, so often market fit takes a long time, especially for a startup. It takes a while to figure out how to sell what you have the language, the AB testing that has to be done. And again, that comes back to do you want to be right about your opinion on the logo? I love the logo. It's a tree. Okay. Well, it's not very distinct. So the data that we've gathered says that it actually needs to be pink. Yeah, but pink is a feminine. And we're. Our values and mission are like, well, do you want it to succeed or do you want to be right? You know, we've seen astounding. One of our clients had a 25% increase in conversions with I think it was a green call to action button versus an orange one or whatever it was. You know, which, which choice do you think they chose? They chose profit, they chose revenue, they chose growth, they chose. So yeah, so it's an important one to be testing and in the event, maximizing availability, space. The question that we want to be asking ourselves is where do people go when they're looking for something I sell, where do they go? Are they on Amazon? Are they looking just in certain retail areas? Are they, you know, probably even niche.

It down also and say, are they on a tablet device, phone, how are they doing?

Sure, sure. I mean you could do all of that again if it helps you focus your ad spend and focus your human capital. But you want to be moving into the third pillar of the marketing flywheel, which is about reaching the market, reaching the entire market. So we've really got to get away from this idea that there's, you know, there's just these customers falling out of the sky and you just got to have a bucket, maybe even a funnel and catch them and then there you go. There's a business. We live in a competitive marketplace and we are fighting for customers attention. So we have to be reaching as many customers as we can. The great example of this in terms of the data, which the data is reflected across sectors and categories and services and products, but the one that really tells the story very well is Coca Cola. So over 50% of Coca Cola's revenue comes from people that buy Coca Cola one to two times a year.

So it's not the heavy buyer that's buying 50 crates every three months that they're, you know, we got to upsell this, this loyal customer and just keep selling and upselling. This comes back to reaching the market. We gotta get that initial offer out to as many people. We don't want to assume again, you know, a customer avatar. Great idea to focus our efforts. But as soon as we can, we want to broaden that spectrum so that we can reach as much of the market as possible. You know, the biggest brands have the greatest market penetration. So we gotta be getting more customers, not simply getting more revenue or more revenue from the customers we have. We've got to be reaching out.

Do you think that comes from just the sheer volume of people that the revenue, even if it's once or twice a year, there's just so many people. It's always someone, everybody.

That's it. That's it. That is exactly it. So that is the mental real estate, that is the memories that exist in the world that everybody defaults to Coca Cola. And that is a huge amount of revenue. Even though it's not, you know, a smaller number are really, really passionate about some other brand. They've just. When you think of, I need to cool down, it's Coca Cola, I need to hang out with friends, it's Coca Cola. And this ties into. So the first piece of reaching the market is all users. So you don't want to make assumptions about who your users are. You want to sell to anyone you can and really focus in on what your product or service solves so that people can choose it if they want to choose it not, you know, are you a dad trying to solve this problem? You know what happens if a mom wants to buy it and use it? Are you going to say no, you're. No, sorry, you're not a dad, you can't buy it, you know, so focus on making it available to all.

That's a really good point. You got me thinking about some stuff now too, because there's a lot of companies and I agree. And niching down does help because I think there's too many people just going, I sell to everyone. Yeah, okay, but who's your target market? Like, you can sell to everyone, but you're not really looking for everyone. Conversely, there's, I think, so many people. Oh, like you just said, we only sell the dit, dit, dit, dit. And I'm thinking of a few right now. I'M not gonna name them, but we only sell to male or female in this sector doing this thing on these days. And it's a good point. If someone wants to buy, they should.

That's it. And don't let your messaging get in the way of that. The second piece of this, just to bring the whole flywheel into kind of clarity and then we can go wherever we want to go, is building connections with uses. And we touched on this when we were discussing the building memories earlier, how they're using it. Yeah, exactly. So making sure, for example, you know, there's. I think it's. I think it's teamwork.com, their project management solution. I don't know that much because we use Asana, but if you go to Basecamp.

I haven't tried Basecamp. Oh, my gosh.

You have to try it. We've been using it for over 10 years now.

What have you been using it for? Let's see if we can explore this conversation around uses. What is the use that you get out of it?

Collaboration with the team. Booking people on the show. Author. Author clients on their projects to publish their books.

Perfect. There's three. Let's stop there before I get, you know, so there.

General notes and ideas I have that come to me and I can just go, click, click.

So there are four great uses. Right. And there might be four different types of users that want to buy Basecamp. Right. And if they only had in their messaging. We make you more productive. Well, you're missing out on the guy that wants to make notes. So you got to have a sales page on your website that says Basecamp is the best for making notes. Look at all these ways in which you can make notes. And then another page that says, hey, Basecamp is amazing for scheduling meetings and all the ways in that, because there's different uses that people are looking for. So you need to be building connections with as many uses as you can for what you sell, if that makes sense.

It absolutely does. You got my mind spinning.

And now I'm thinking about Basecamp. You've built a connection with some uses in my brain.

So one thing that's cool is on their homepage, they actually have. It shows Asana, Evernote, all the different things. Slack. So the newest versions, I've been on it since Classic, literally over a decade ago. But now they have, like, I can send you a message in it internally. You can have all the teams. It's taken all of those, and it's just flat. It's not a per User, you know, because one of the things with mine is my company's growing, and every stage, it's like, okay, cool. Now we get to spend three times as much because we're doing the right things. Years ago, they were like, we want to help you. Everything's included. It's flat.

Yeah.

Because when you start adding up the other ones, it's like, you're now paying three, four, five times as much unless you stay small. And I'm like, that's counterproductive, like, subconsciously.

Yeah.

That stuff will kill you.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. So what's interesting is that, I mean, obviously, I mean, there's also another piece that we can explore here around kind of brand loyalty. So a lot of people have this idea that we're loyal to brands. Like you're. You know, someone might listen to what you've just said and say, wow, wow. You know, Mario is really loyal to Basecamp. But a better way of describing it in a way that really helps us understand how we can, you know, get in front of more customers is.

Buying habits and ease of understanding. Right. You're bedded into Basecamp. It does everything that you want to do. But if it broke down, if the website stopped working tomorrow, that would suck. You wouldn't cry about it. You wouldn't go, oh, no, we got to revive them. Let's wear the headquarters. Get in the car. Let's drive the. Get out of here. We got to get back there. You know, you would just. Yeah, get to the chopper, to the bomb in there. We got to save them. So what? You wouldn't do that. What you would do is you'd go, okay, cool. Well, what are the alternatives? And this is idea. This is the idea that, you know.

A buying. Buying will happen, A choice will be made, and you're either on the shelf or you're not. You either solve the problem or you don't. But when it comes to the moment of buying, you know, what the data suggests is that buyers are not rational. They're emotional and distracted. That is who you're dealing with right now. So we have to be building memories all the time, clarifying that message. And that's why we use this flywheel idea of once you're finished reaching the market on whatever level you can. And the good question there is, how can we get noticed by people who might buy? Then we're going straight back up to building more memories. AB Testing our story. Is it clear? Is it understandable? A B Testing our distinctive brand assets, Are they more and more recognizable?

A little idea here is that until you have reached fame, and fame means 51% of the market recognizes your brand and brand name, so if your logo is there, they can go, oh, yeah, that's Coca Cola. Oh, that's Nike. Oh, that's Apple. But until that happens, you got to put those together because otherwise someone might be saying, yeah, I think it was Pepsi. And your advertising is actually helping the competition. So that's it. And around and round we fly, will we go.

I love that you have it structured like that, because I'm going to bring up the point from something you just said about the logo. I think there's so many people that want to jump from. Here's where I'm at. I have no freaking clue. But I need to make the colors look pretty for the sake of them being pretty. Not realizing that your business model might be. I'm thinking of some clients from decades ago where it was like, they're trying to be Coca Cola and Pepsi. And to your point of view, you know, they might only have those people who buy once a year. I'm one of them. I really. I gave up pop.

Me, too.

Decades ago. But at Christmas, I'm not going to be one of those people that brings a protein bar going, no, I'm good. Like, yeah, don't insult people. Like, if you want to sneak it off in the bathroom and eat it or the car or whatever, fine, stick to your routine. But I've seen it where it's just like, you're blatantly just trying to, like, you have to be, like, going out of your way. So it's like, yeah, I'll tell you, someone offers that, I have a Coke. I made one exception this summer for my cousin's grad party, too. So this year might be twice, but technically, that was last Christmas. Sweet. It's still only once so far.

You got credits.

Yeah, but I'm not the one buying a case a week or anything. Not since high school. However, that's their model. If you don't have 50,000 people as customers, what do you suggest for someone that's trying to be like Coke and Pepsi and model all companies, but it's not even their model.

It in. It involves a lot of. A lot of expectation management and almost qualifying conversations with clients. Because, you know, recently I was in a sales call with a company that has supplements, right? So, you know, they had this idea. They're like, I want to be. We want our new brand. This is a new launch, unknown in the marketplace. No building memories. No memories. To leverage. We want to be the only supplement. They got a full, you know, they got a full service array. Everything from vitamins, minerals, every, you know, everything in the rainbow and what they wanted from their marketing. We want to be in, we want to have every one of our products in our customers shelf. Our customers medicine cabinet must be completely jam packed with just our products. And you know, we got to say that's a great. That, that would be nice. That would be great. Wouldn't that be great? But much more realistically is if you got one of your bottles into as many medicine cabinets as possible, that would bring you more revenue than if you only got it into a fifth as many customers and they had all of them. Right. So we're wanting to get that initial offer out to as many people in the market as possible because what the data shows is that that initial offer gets the highest conversion. Right. And you know, we, I can unpack that. If you want to talk about retargeting.

I actually want to ask you where do you think that stems from? Because I have a couple examples we can talk about. I'll be honest, I've.

I can relate to that. Where it's like, yeah, we got. And I have a joke with the podcast because people are like, I only want them listening to mine. And it's like on average people listen to seven different shows. Why are you being so greedy about it? Like, you just need to be one of them.

Yeah, yeah.

So where do you think it comes from? Where they're like, we need to be in the whole medicine cabinet.

Yeah, I mean I think it's, I think a lot of the marketing myths and on our podcast we just kind of unpacked five or six big ones that we've encountered. The reason is it's a nice thing to think about. It makes sense. Superficially.

It's simple. Marketing is complicated. Marketing is not always a short bet. There's risk involved.

That's why the tracking is so important.

Exactly. So you know, people latch onto myths because they want it to work. And it sounds on a superficial level like it would work. Like you would think that it's a good strategy to try and get all of our products into the whole medicine cabinet in our customers buying stream. Right. But that, that means you're trying to take on too many competitors at the same time. You know, that's one way to think about it. But the other way to think about it is that just statistically heavy buyers are in the minority. They're only about 20% of the market over 50% of the market are light buyers. So if you're engaging them, then you've got, you know, you've got a much higher potential for revenue and a lot more resilience, a lot more stability. Now what happens if we hit this recession and all the heavy buyers start going, oh, I'm going to cut my supplement budget, which is, you know, let's say maybe not. It's more of a luxury than a necessity. It should be more of a necessity, but it's not where we are. You know, all of a sudden that demographic of, of the high earners that can afford your product and afford to have as much of it as you want them to have, can't afford it, and they cut their buying in half, your revenue drops by half. But if, you know the equivalent number of customers in the light category fall off, it's not going to have such a massive impact on your revenue as you continue to grow. So it's about resilience, it's about long term strategy, it's about long term thinking, not short term impulsivism. So impulsivism, is that a word?

I like it.

I think we just call it.

Sounds good to me. And actually I like what you're saying about the medicine cabinet and the impulsiveness of it, because.

It'S a quick way to come up with a strategy. Who do you want to have this? Everyone.

Yeah, everyone. Cool.

But the reality is like a local grocery store, if they said we're only, we're going to be exclusive with Coke or exclusive with Pepsi. No. Dr. Pepper. No.

Yeah.

I think it would really hurt the store because sometimes you go, you know what? I want to try something different. I've been drinking this 10 times a week for the last six years.

I don't think anyone's gonna hurt you for trying one other flavor. Dr. Pepper.

Dr. Pepper cheddar. And the other piece is heavy buyers tend to buy more brands, which makes sense. So if you're a podcast enthusiast, probably listen to more a wider variety of podcasts than someone who listens to a podcast very seldom, maybe they've got one podcast that they listen to once every two weeks. But if you're a kind of person that has to wants to listen to a podcast every day when you go on your walk, you're going to be trying different podcasts. You might come back to the same ones.

So this would be your use case, Right. You have someone who wants a bunch of different information as more entertainment and learning on a consistent basis. Then I have a problem. Maybe this episode will help me solve it.

Yeah, well, it's pointing to, you know, definitely there has to be that connection of what I'm trying to solve and how it shows up. And they might try different things, but it's just what the data shows is that heavy buyers try more competitors. So holding onto a heavy buyer is also a very difficult thing to do. And if anyone wants to dig into this, there's two great books that come out of the Bass Institute in Australia. Byron Sharp is one of the lead professors there and he's written two great books, how Brands Grow. And I really recommend them. If you're an evidence based marketer, check them out. They're a bit dry but very, very useful. Yeah.

Well, excellent. So you said you unpack something on your show. Can you give us a hint? Tease us with what you were talking about recently? Because it sounded good.

Yeah. So we, we've done a whole, a whole series on marketing myths. So you can check that out at ClearBrand Academy podcast or clearbrand.com podcast. And I'm new to the team, so manager@clearbrand.com and I'm moving into the podcasting space and I'm going to be launching out a series of interviews with founders. So Mario, I'll, I'll just watch your inbox. I'm sure there'll be an email from you. It's from me at some point. But you can check out our podcast where, you know, we're digging into all sorts of marketing myths. You know, outbound, the, you know, the marketing flywheel that we have and you know everything.

Because I know people, I've heard people say all I do is advertising. And this is more of the medium for anyone listening. This is more of the mediums. But I believe in advertising. I think it's effective. It's a great way to grow a new area that you've never short of unless you know how to do public speaking and do it and have a book. Advertising is probably the third or high up in the top of how do you reach new people effectively?

Absolutely.

Heard people say I don't believe in advertising. Okay. And then I've heard people say all I, all I do is advertising. They don't rely on referrals. And then there's people who go, I'm all referral based.

And then there's, yeah.

So for every case I've heard and I'm thinking of people I've either know personally or have had on the show who are doing serious seven figure plus business, I've heard both sides of the Argument.

Yeah.

So do you know how freaking difficult this is to be like, which one's the right answer for you? And then you get the person who goes, well I want to be like Coke. Okay, well they're spending 33 billion a year on advertising and you gave it a shot because you got $100 free credit from Google Ads.

Yeah, yeah, you gave it and you put all of those ads on one advert and you ran it for three days and you know, so this is, this is a great example of with.

An ad that you have no idea who you're talking to, it doesn't have an attention grabbing headline, benefits or call to action.

No. There you go. So, and you know, based on Google Analytics. Yeah.

Based on, just to reconfirm, you did it wrong and here's the proof, it didn't work.

Yeah, exactly. So you know, again we, instead of getting lost in all of those conversations and trying this and trying that and you know what, what I learned through my own hard knocks of hope marketing, I hope this works, I hope that works. I hope this works. You know, really swimming upstream, digging into those fundamental questions and you know, being realistic, being grounded in reality. You're not going to reverse engineer that TikTok thing that worked for another company because we don't know what their market fit was like how long they were building memories around, you know, their potential customers. And when they finally made an offer and it went viral and there was a response, you can't distill all the components that went into that success and try and apply it to your use case. So we got to have something else, we got to have a recipe, we've got to have a system that we can apply and that's, that's how we approach marketing. Very kind of old fashioned, maybe it might include, I think it's good, very trendy new ideas.

But it's one reason I wanted to have you on because there's, I guess I have over 200 people on a wait list for like 20 spots and people are constantly going, we can talk about marketing, we can talk about marketing. Like I'm not a slouch with marketing so you better have something really good. And most people aren't willing to just be honest and go, I love what you said about managing the expectations because I found there's a lot of people who doesn't want to be Coke or Pepsi. I mean.

If you have any short of ambition in a company, you probably started it to help more people and grow. And if you don't, why are you Doing it. So I get it. But at the same time, if you don't have that clear expectation of, I'm thinking let's use books because I'm a publisher, Gary Vaynerchuk, Oprah, Tony Robbins, they probably don't have to market too hard. They could probably have a crap book or a great book and probably sell hundreds of thousands, if not millions of copies. Yep, that's a lot different for you have no audience.

Or a smaller audience and you want to pull off the same thing. So having that expectation off the bat, I'm glad you addressed it because it's the same end goal. But the strategy, I mean, maybe you can pull it off, but it's just going to take a year and a half to three years versus one post.

We've got a marketing training program for in house marketing teams and other marketing agencies. And one of the members was talking about how challenging it is when, you know, business owners or decision makers that are not marketers, they don't, you know, they don't use the same language and they don't understand why they are, why the marketing team is doing what they're doing. And this example of a kind of a metaphor emerged which can be quite useful and it's quite a funny picture. So if you imagine that marketing, because it involves risk, it could be related, it could be, you know, compared to a casino. Right. There's risk involved. And so there's two individuals that arrive at a casino. The first one does a handbrake, turn in with a Lamborghini. He's got like Hawaiian T shirt, gold chains everywhere, jumps out of the Lamborghini, runs in with $10,000 to the roulette table, all on black. Maybe he gets it, maybe he doesn't get it. But there's another guy. This guy comes in on a bicycle, can be a nice car. That's not the point. He's got a suit, he's got a briefcase, maybe he's got a spectacles. Very quiet spoken. He goes up to the blackjack table, he knows all the statistics on every hand and he sits there for 12 hours, cashes in his chips and leaves with a healthy profit. Right? Who do you want to partner with? Because the marketing agency that comes in and says, you pay us $10,000, we're going to get this viral post and it's going to all these promises. That's the Hawaiian T shirt guy. That's the guy that's saying.

Firstly he's not betting with his own money and he only tells you about the wins Right. And that's the decision that has to be made. So if you want to dig in for the long term. And again, expectation management, we talk to our customers and we say, you should be really budgeting 12 months on your marketing spend, not three months, ideally not even six months. And that give it a go. Example you gave is a great one where it would have been more effective to take that $100, split it up into 12 months, and be like, okay, what can I afford to do consistently for the next year using this money that I have? So a little. A little picture to kind of help decision makers.

Painted a mental picture there.

Yeah.

I want to give the person with 100 bucks for the year 120. So it's at least 10amonth.

Yeah, there you go.

And if we could switch the guy who came in on the bicycle to the Lambo. I actually really like Lambos. And when you said the.

As I said that, like, oh, no, he can have a. Yeah. I got nothing against Lambos. I got nothing against Hawaii. I love Hawaii. I got nothing against gold chains. But it's the picture, you know, it's the.

No, I totally get what you're saying because it's like that quick win. I was actually kind of thinking Wolf of Wall street, too, in the one scene, but that's a whole.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I mean, we could talk about what's recently happening at, you know, the. With FTX and everything, but I mean, that's going to just also just confuse the conversation. So. But there's a great example.

But of, you know, as far as the. Let's go a little bit deeper with the yearly spend. I like that you're talking about that. So 12 months. I want to just set you up for a loaded question. Oh, I'm not supposed to tell you, am I?

What's that?

Oh, tell the. Don't tell the guest. Okay, thanks. No, I'm teasing. What should the budget be for the yearly marketing spend?

Yeah. So.

It really depends on the limitations that you have. What is your seed capital? What is your working cash flow? You know, how much can you afford? Your mindset, too. Yeah. And your spend, like, it can be. You can spend in dollars, you can spend in human capital, you can spend on weekends, you can spend. There's a lot of ways in which you can kind of spend resource, but you want to be making sure that it's sustainable. So what we do with our clients is that we push them through the flywheel, we apply it, we ask all these deep Questions, we dig into it, and then we look at proportions. So we said, what proportion of the marketing budget should we spend on Google Ads? Display booking, podcast shows, who knows what is going to work? Getting on lists, getting in directories, Maybe a billboard is a good idea if you're targeting a, you know, small geographical location. We don't know. We got to ask these questions. Once you've got the proportions sorted out, then we say, what is your cash flow? How much can you afford to put aside to invest in your marketing? Let's say six months, let's say a year. You know, again, maybe they're make or break time and they've only got, you know, they can only afford to pay salaries for the next three months. Who knows what the use case is? But get the proportions right and then make your commitment, put the money aside and get on with the doing. Right. And then don't be changing course because, you know, Google algorithm changes here or, you know, these waves that come out of nowhere that you can't predict. You know, stick to your A B testing. Stick to the data that's showing up. Base your decisions on metrics that are coming from the market, not internally, not perceptions, not. Anyway, that's. That's kind of how we.

That is a great answer. And I didn't know if you had some ratio like X amount of your buck. No golden ratio, certain percentage or something. But that's also going to vary because you might say, hey, I'm willing to invest half of our ad budget.

Yeah.

And half could be a bit. No, 10% could be a bigger amount than half of someone else's. So it's all.

Absolutely.

It's all relative. That's fantastic.

We don't. We don't show up with those answers. We show up with those questions.

I like that. And to another point, you made about don't get caught up in the algorithm and all that. It's one thing I really like about copywriting. If you can invest, if you haven't ever invested the money in figuring out who your customer is or client, the ads are gonna. SEO changes all the time. There's core principles, but same thing with podcasting and all this. YouTube. Holy smokes. Yeah, I remember YouTube from when I did one of the first things in 06.

Wow.

It was either fall, Christmas of 05, I think it was going into 06. Truthfully. It was. Yeah. Like, early, early, early. Like, it launched nine months before.

Wow.

And I'm like, oh, this is awesome. Because my background's in video and I'm like, oh, everyone's gonna be on it. And it took a little bit while, but looking at it now, I'm like, this is unrecognizable.

Yeah, it's completely different. Yeah, yeah.

So you got to stay up on that. But if you were to say, you know, we're going to put everything, you know, MySpace, I know a lot of people who put a lot of money into a single thing and then that single thing disappears, or in some recent cases, I'm not going to name anyone. People start using the platform less. It's still around, but yeah, if people use it less, is it still as effective?

Yeah. So, you know, this is, this is great when, you know, we're digging into kind of resilience and there's, you know, riding on the world for, on the wall for some potentially tough times with markets doing things that people don't expect. And.

At the end of the day, inbound marketing is, is great. Right? That's people just showing up and booking calls with you so they can buy from you. Right. That's amazing.

What percentage do you think of what percentage of a company do you think inbound marketing accounts for?

I think it really depends, you know, it depends on, on the ticket price, you know, what you're selling. So I wouldn't say that there's a hard and fast rule. We don't, we definitely don't have a statistic that I can shoot offhand. But what we do, what seems to be the case is, you know, inbound marketing is that longer term investment that is wonderful because it just shows up and it's a result of work that has already been done. However, you know, you've got to be in the outreach space as well. Right. You can't only rely on that because you have so little control. You get to your desk, there's five appointments, there used to be 10. Now you got to try and figure that out. And another way to do that is to pay money to get in front of new faces to, to get your advertising out there so that you can get more leads and sales by being more kind of aggressive. We like to think of inbound as kind of like a hunt, like a forager, like, what's the word? I'm thinking of a hunter and a forager gatherer.

A farmer? Yeah, a farmer or a hunter. So inbound is like farming, outbound is like hunting. So you got to do both, but you know, you've got more control in the hunting space. Not to say you shouldn't be doing both. They're both Very important.

But you do have way more control. Like, you can control if I call a hundred companies today, tomorrow, this week.

Absolutely. And you can test your messaging. That's what ads are great for as well. You know, different copy, what's getting clicked, different images, what's getting clicked. You know, you've got all this rich data so you can make decisions about, you know, how to, how to get a better response from the market.

Yeah. Some of the classic stuff. I remember one presentation I did, everyone thought I'd be talking about all this fancy stuff. I literally threw pens and paper on the table and everyone looked at me like, really? I'm like, you think I'm gonna sit here and in 35 minutes explain every technical aspect of online platforms to you? You want more clients?

I said write down 20 people in your phone. Find 20 people in your phone and call them.

Yeah, there you go. Nice. Nice. Yeah, absolutely. Do something.

I have this thing that will help you. Do you want it? Here's the price.

Yeah, there you go. There you go. Absolutely.

I did say don't start cold. Like there. It was more of a follow up with the people you think are already interested or said yes. And you just, you know, you spent so much time writing this 52 blog post and they didn't click on it and call you.

Yep.

So call him. You know, I've been, in most cases, it was, you know, I've been meaning. That's my favorite. I've been meaning to call you. I was just thinking about you the other day.

Yeah.

For three months.

Yeah. I just finished up recording a podcast interview with my first founder. And that's Alexander Toth, the founder of clearbrand.com. and this is where we got to. Right there is suffering. Like you got to. If you choose your suffering. Yes. It's uncomfortable to call that person and say, hey, here's this thing that we've just done. What do you think about it? Or, you know, it is. But you either got to take that suffering or you got to get the suffering of no profits and stress and wondering why. So just take what you can, what you can see in front of you, what you can kind of take control of. So I love that, Love that example. Mario, thanks for bringing it in.

Well, I love everything you've been sharing. I got a couple more things to ask you, but one of them is this here little diddy.

Hey.

Oh, Wheel of whatever. Yellow or black.

Nice. Let's go yellow.

Excellent.

Oh, that's amazing.

Okay, you get yellow. So you get that question.

You see it yeah, that's. Is that a 7? I think. I don't know. I trust you.

There's nothing on there.

Okay.

I originally was gonna. And I was thinking about it the other day, I think I might Velcro some things on there, like ask you what three categories do you not want to talk about then like right when you get started and then spin it, be like, it's out of my hands.

Yeah, it's not my fault. It's not my fault. I promise.

No, I left.

Although with all these trick questions, you know.

So my question has to deal with travel. You said you've traveled the world. Where is somewhere you haven't been able to go yet that you'd really love to.

Oh, that is such a great question. I have not properly done Europe for whatever reason. You know, I haven't done Italy, I haven't done Portugal, haven't done Spain, haven't walked the Camino and kind of explored that area. So I would say Europe if you. And I recently actually got my DNA done and turns out I'm 47% Southern European and 45% Northern European. So who knows, maybe we got some ancestors up there going to find out about. So that's. That's where I'd go. Yeah.

Very good. Well, thank you for sharing that. I'm going to close an open loop. That's a marketing term. For anyone listening, I just realized I said you said you traveled a lot. That may have been right when we were getting started. I'm not sure if we brought it up in the interview, but for anyone listening, like, I want you paying attention for this next part. So I know sometimes when I see it in shows and stuff, I'm like, you know what, they didn't introduce that character before, but open loops and marketing use them all the time. We're going to thank our sponsor and be right back with the imperfect action round. You've heard me say every business needs a book, including yours. And it's true. And that's why I'm launching my new book@eapublishingmethodbook.com so you can learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction lead and profit generating business Book eight weeks. But you know what? Don't take my word for it. Take it from a few of my authors like Laurie, I went from having.

An idea and a possibility to actually getting my book published. Or Catherine, thank you for making my mom number one best selling author.

Or Mary Alice, what he got done for me in three days regarding my.

Book launch.

Unmanageable John Cody.

I've worked with Mario over the phone.

And online and he's been very helpful in getting me where I needed to.

Go with promoting my books. Rocio, there's no way in the world I would have been able to do this with somebody else again. I've attempted it in the past. It didn't serve me. As a matter of fact, I ended up more frustrated than anything. So this has been a very seamless process.

Adele, if you're looking for an amazing.

Business coach, I highly recommend Mario Ficcini or Bill Benner.

I can't make a higher recommendation for than to work with Mario Ficini. He has been great for me and right now I won't work with anybody.

Else except for Mario.

Hey, their words, not mine. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com to get your copy and I look forward to hearing your transformation as our next video success story. Once again, that's EA publishingmethodbook.com and we are back with the imperfect action. Josh, are you ready to take imperfect action?

I'm so ready to take imperfect action. I think that's the best kind.

Absolutely. Rapid fire questions? No. Well, questions and answers. I'm just going to ask the first one. What's the fastest path to the cache?

Clear messaging.

I got to ask, is that where you got the name for the company from?

Well, I didn't name it, but yeah. The whole company is about, is about clarity. It's about clarity of action, clarity of intent. So I think, well, I can go into it. So basically Alexander, tothe way that I interpret it, you'd have to have him on the show to ask him yourself. But he was a story brand certified guide for about six. Well, for quite a number of years. And what he found was that the framework was absolutely amazing and it is absolutely amazing. But the clarity that it brings was kind of at a core, a deeper, more fundamental level that it delivers clarity right in your customers minds. And so he wanted to make sure that people understood. Well, I'm actually speaking for him. I don't know this is true. This is my interpretation that if you have a clear brand.

You know, the buying choice is a lot simpler. So yeah, that's my interest.

You've mentioned it a few times and when you were sharing stuff, I'm like, I'll ask them, I'll ask them. And I wanted to make sure. I asked you while we but love it. Number two, what is the biggest problem you see your prospects making in the fastest way for them to fix it?

Not Prioritizing the market's response, the data, not prioritizing. You know, there's, there's a saying that comes out of. I think it's nonviolent communication. I've got a background in coaching and organizational development. The, the, the meaning of a communication is defined by the interpretation. So I can say something, but the meaning of whatever I've said is defined by what you understand. And so I need to be very curious about what you've understood. I need to find out about it. I need to dig into it so that I know how to speak to the market so that I know how to speak to people that want to buy from me. So yeah.

Wow, that's. I've not heard anyone share that perspective.

That's awesome. Number three.

What is the best way to maximize customer lifetime value?

Build consistent memories while solving customer problems.

I like it.

You mentioned a few earlier, but I love talking about books. What are a couple you'd recommend to Expert Authority World?

Yeah, Jim Collins. Good to great. Fantastic book.

Building a Story Brand. Donald Miller. Fantastic book. How Brands Grow Part one and part two. Byron Sharp. Great books.

Can't remember the name of it. It's Jenny Romaniac. Building Distinctive brand assets. I believe that's what's on my table at the moment.

Excellent. Where would you like people to learn more?

So we have got a bunch of ways in which we work with customers. The first is a done for you full service digital marketing agency that's done for you. So you can just go to clearbrand.com check it out. We've got done with you so we can train your in house marketing team. We can train your marketing agency team. That's clairbrand.com amplify and then there's a full DIY so you can do it yourself and accessible courses and full WordPress template that you can upload and edit based on the Clear brand framework. And that is clearbrand.com academy. So come check us out.

You're covering all the bases. I love it.

We're reaching the market. That's what it's about, being available.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this. Thank you for your time. I've picked up on some things and you really did get my mind spinning on a couple other ones. I'm like, okay, okay I'll do it. So thank you for sharing Josh.

Thank you so much. It's been a masterclass in hosting a podcast as well. I'm a host myself and to see the systems that you've built and the way you show up has been inspiring for me. So thank you for the opportunity to speak with your audience and I look forward to adding value in any way I can.

Well, I appreciate the compliments and everything you shared, so I have no doubt you did add value. So thank you for that Expert Authority World we have another great episode here today. I'll see you on the next one. Have a great day. God bless. You're already the expert, but have you transformed your expertise into a tangible asset that will generate qualified leads while increasing profit for you 24? 7? And if so, how well are you promoting it? With my new book, the Expert Authority Effect Publishing Method, I take you through my process step by step. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction, lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com to get started. Now once again, that's eapublishing method book.com thanks for listening to today's episode. I would love to know what you enjoyed most from it if you haven't done so already. I invite you to connect with me on my new LinkedIn. You can go to it directly at eainterviews.com LinkedIn Once again, that's eainterviews.com LinkedIn lastly, check out the full eainterviews.com site for complete show notes, the full interview video experience, links to the resources we mentioned, and more. Have a blessed day and I'll see you on the next one.