0480 | Zach Montroy

I am Zach Montroy, the founder and CEO of the Intention Collective. And you're listening to EA Interviews.

EA Interviews, episode 480, inspiration, transformation, success stories and the Imperfect Action Round. Seven days a week. Join Mario Ficcini for today's Expert Authority effect interview. Expert Authority World. We're in for a treat today and I'm going to be sharing with you with Zach Montroy about teams in the workspace and businesses and the toxicity of it and how you can have a healthy one. It's so interesting to me that everyone wants to have a business and then they're like, I want to, I want to go into business for myself and build this massive empire. And then you say, well, have, have you thought about scaling, building out a team and everything? And they're like, wow. And for the people who do, because I remember thinking this years ago and then I started building out my team. It's like, yay, I've got a team. It's like, you know, you know, you're in the cool kids club and all these things are going on and then it's like, what the heck's going on over here? What's this person thinking? This is, this isn't rockets. And it's, there's all these new challenges which if you're a real entrepreneur, you might like that and invite that. But the question is, how do you still make this work effectively? I'm excited to unpack this with Zach Montroy right after we thank our sponsor. Every business needs a book, including yours. And that's why I'm launching my new book to help you, regardless of where you think your current writing abilities are. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. Once again, that's EA publishingmethodbook.com Here he is, ladies and gentlemen, CEO of the Intention Collective, Zach Montroy. How are you feeling today, Zach?

I'm great, Mario. Great to be with you today. Thanks for having me.

The pleasure is absolutely mine. I was joking around a little bit and I have a team and I want to learn from you just as much as I'm sure the listeners do. But I really do feel like that there's people, there's like the entrepreneurs who go, well, I want to scale and do all these things, but they won't put a team in place. But the second you do, it's like you just shifted your problems that maybe you couldn't figure out to. Now you have to communicate what you couldn't figure out to people who have no idea what you're talking about. How do you fix all this?

How do I. I just have this simple remedy. No, I'm just kidding. It's really complicated, right? Like, we are all human beings. We bring all of who we are to work every day. And I think you just hit the nail on the head. I think oftentimes as entrepreneurs, we realize, and, no, we can't get to where we want to go without a team. We hire a bunch of people, and then we just think that they're magically going to get it. They're going to magically understand the vision, understand what they're supposed to be doing, how they're supposed to be working. And we make all these assumptions, and then when things don't go our way, what do we typically do? We tend to blame the people. And I think oftentimes it comes down to a leadership problem.

What if you have SOPs and videos and training and stuff in place and people aren't being held and they're not holding themselves accountable to it? When you say, okay, here's the deadline a week ago, it's two weeks later. And they never brought it up once or said sorry or this or that or.

Yeah, well, I mean, I love. I love that you really just started there with, how do we make sure that we have clarity for team members? And I think, you know, SOPs really helping people understand what are their roles and responsibilities at a high level. You know, what is the mission behind their job look like with deep clarity, no matter the obstacle that they're going to encounter, what are the. What's the number they're responsible for? So if you've really created that clarity and you can sort of sleep at night really resting in the fact that you've been as abundantly clear as you can. I think accountability looks different. Different, right. Accountability looks different depending on your team, depending on, you know, the situation. But I think most leaders really have difficulty having those hard conversations. Oh, 100 people accountable.

Yeah, 100%. And this is surreal because I don't know how smart it would be me for me to say something on the air live. I don't mind saying it, but the people hearing about it may not know what's coming down the road, let's say.

Okay, oh, boy, you're hearing it here first.

Okay, so the SOPs are in order. You have all these different things. Okay. There's like 17 things I want to ask. Let's just spit them out. KPIs remote workers in person. Workers.

You have to have the KPIs to know what you're doing. Also budget. Let's throw an accounting in there. Like you're, how do you know you're on budget and everything? Or the worst thing is finding out after the fact. But how do you handle remote people versus people that are in office? Do you think there's a difference or do you really think it just comes down to the right people?

I think it comes down to the right people and it comes down to intentionality.

And the leadership. I want to say for the record, I do agree with you.

It does come down to the leader. However, you can be a good leader and have the wrong people, right?

Absolutely. And I think, I think many leaders, many leaders don't, you know, kind of going back to what you just said, they don't have the hard conversation or conversations.

And they don't really have clarity on how they should hold people accountable. So if you've done the work of clarifying the KPIs, if you've done the work of clarifying the roles and responsibilities, now you've got to have the courage to have the hard conversation or hard conversations. And that's where accountability lies.

With the team or the leader?

With the leader. It's interesting that you ask that though. Patrick Lencioni, who's done a ton of work in organizational development, they did a huge study on accountability and found that if a leader is willing to, and skilled in having hard conversations, holding people accountable actually and teaches their team, the less that they'll have to do, it doesn't really make sense. But if the leader is unwilling to have those conversations, the team is unwilling to hold one another accountable. And we know the best accountability comes from all around. Right. If I'm your peer holding you accountable, that's actually a much. There's a lot more pressure to that than your boss holding you accountable. So you, in a healthy team environment, you see peer to peer accountability really being a pervasive behavior within the, within the team and within the culture.

So I'm trying to get the answer where this isn't my fault.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. Patrick Lencioni is a great author, great speaker. He's one of my favorites. Would love to have him on the show. Pat, if you're listening, you've seen him at the Global Leadership Summit for years. And I just, I, I don't want to say I can't be mean because I can absolutely be mean. I just, it's not my natural default. And it's. I've spent two decades learning to be more optimistic, less pessimistic, all these things that are more attractive for a business. And just overall, who, I mean, who wants to be around someone cynical and pessimistic? But I have noticed that this. I'm talking about myself here. That's what I was talking about is like, it, the surrealness of this conversation with you today.

Like, thanks, God, I didn't have enough challenges going on in life and business and now it's like, cool, we get to talk about this. And all I'm hearing is like, this is on me. Which it is. It's my business. But.

So I'm going to reverse interview you here because this will be fun for me. Tell me, I'd love to hear. You just talked about cynicism. You talked about, you know.

Really just, just sort of that, the dark cloud. And I'm guessing you're associating that with accountability. So talk to me about the association with being cynical.

The hard conversations, they're just not fun and maybe not cynicism and all of that, but there's people who are really good at finding what's wrong with everything. No one really likes being around them. I get where they have their place. Like, I will say, like comedy and movie scripts, when you need tension and friction, it's like, okay, it does make the storyline better, but it doesn't make it any more fun to be like, okay, you're cool, but I have to let you go. Yeah, you're a nice person, but you have not hit this consistently. And I don't know what to do. I've done everything I've asked you 15 times.

Yeah. And I think, I think you're right there. And what I do want to say, though, is accountability. Having hard conversations. I don't think for many people it's fun. It certainly is not fast, it's not easy. And I don't think that that's what we're called to do. As leaders. I think as leaders, we are called to serve the people, serve the work. That means having those hard conversations. And in some cases it means letting people go. It means we've clarified what your role and responsibility is here. We've had the conversation, maybe we've had the conversation over and over again.

And.

And this just doesn't feel like the right place for you. The right, you know, Jim Collins, get right seats, right people and right seats on the right bus. This doesn't feel like the right bus for you. Maybe we've moved them, you know, into different seats to see if their, you know, unique ability fits in a different place, but that's okay. And there might be a better place for them to serve and to work. You're not. None of us are the end all be all employers or place for people to work. And maybe there's a better opportunity out there for them.

Again, the surrealness. Patrick Lencioni, the Global Leadership Summit gone numerous times. I think he was talking along with Dr. Henry Cloud.

Very similar stuff. And I was like. And I didn't. And that was, geez, 10, 12 years ago. And I don't think I liked it anymore then. It's just.

It is. It's the, I think, the hard thing about it. And it should always be hard, I think, for us as leaders, especially when we're focused on people it in. And I love. Dr. Cloud talks about necessary endings. And, you know, there are. There's seasonality to jobs, there's seasonality to our lives. And just because this chapter is closing, you can be a good person, I can be a good person. This just isn't the right fit. And maybe it's because of, you know, your skill set, whatever it is. If we, If I can, with integrity, say, I've had the hard conversation. I have given you as much clarity as humanly possible, and this is not working, then it's not working in better. You know, better to help someone find something else and give them dignity in that than to feel like you're pushing a rope all the time.

Oh, good gravy. So there's a part in my book, and it was a very similar feeling. I think it's chapter two. I mentioned it. And when I was writing it, I, like, started tearing up because there was someone else a few years ago.

Similar thing. And it. And it was just like, there's a line in. In there about you want the best form. No matter what you do, you just keep them, giving them more rope and more rope and more rope because it's like, you don't want to offend them. This, that, the other thing, but all they keep doing is hanging themselves with it. Yeah, like, how much more can you do before. It's like you're dragging me down, too. I'm waking up every day thinking, is this getting done? Is this like, what's going. You're supposed to be taking this off my plate.

Yeah.

Make my life easier. I don't care what anyone's doing. Like, are you bringing something of value? That's like, hey, this is now, less for me to think about. Thanks.

Right. And if you've done all that you can do to create that clarity, give them autonomy in their role, and it's not working. The results aren't there. They. I mean, deep down, I'm sure that they know that, too. And I would say it's pretty miserable to be in a job where you're not succeeding, not meeting, you know, what's required of you, what's asked of you. And sometimes there's ethical issues in that, too. Right? Like you're not. You're not putting in the time, you're not putting in the energy. You're not putting in the effort that we would say is like the minimal effort. And again, there, if I've had the conversation, we can hold one another accountable. They're never fun, though.

Okay, so they're not supposed to be fun. Cool. Cool.

I love Brene Brown. Said, you know, when we were. I was actually getting trained by her, and she said, you know, I was. I was working with special Forces, and they were talking about vulnerability and leadership and hard conversations. And he said, you just got to embrace the suck. And she was like, tell me more. What? And he said, embrace the suck. It's not supposed to be fun. It's not fast, it's not easy, but we have to have the courage to have those conversations.

Okay, so my next question is, where do you get this extra courage from when needed, on demand?

Well, it's not fast, and I would say it's not fun. But I think courage comes from being willing to be vulnerable. And I think.

Being vulnerable, being courageous, means I know who I am. I understand my skill sets, I understand my giftedness. I understand what I'm not good at. I think many of us as leaders think that we're great at everything, and we all have blind spots. But if I've invited the right people into my life, I understand my unique ability, my skill sets. I'm understanding the baggage that I bring to leadership. We bring all of who we are to work every day. I think that's where we muster up the courage to be vulnerable. That's where we muster up this idea of having courage to lean in when we don't know the answer, when we don't know what the outcome is going to be. I mean, that's the very definition of courage. That's the very definition of vulnerability is being willing to step into that messy situation when we don't know what's going to happen.

Fantastic. You know your stuff. I appreciate it.

There's a Little bit of nerdery there, but that's all right. I'll take the compliment. Mario.

This is fantastic.

Okay, so let's flip this back because we're getting. I love everything you're saying. I'm just like, wow. There's the surrealness of this is probably the most ever. There's always some like, okay, I can relate to this, I can relate to this. But.

Literally today, this conversation. I'm so glad you're here because I'm not the only one going through. Apparently I'm the guinea pig that we're using as the example, but a lot of my friends and other successful entrepreneurs, it's like it's a behind the scenes conversation usually. Would you agree?

Yeah. I mean it.

And that's the hard. That's the really difficult part in leadership, is making sure that we have people to process this stuff with. You know, leadership can be a really lonely place. I don't think it has to be. I think every good leader has a great coach, has a great and or great therapist by their side. Because, you know, I, I think if we're going to think about holistically this idea of serving the work, serving the people that are entrusted to our. There's a lot of really nuanced but really important decisions that we have to make in there. And I think having the right people to process those with is radically important if we want to show up with integrity and courage and vulnerability in what we do.

Talk to me more about this showing up with courage, integrity and vulnerability.

How would you define showing up with all that? So in what I'm kind of hearing is by me not doing the one, by me not doing. Oh wait, by a leader not doing the thing that they're supposed to. They're not in with. They're not in integrity with themselves.

Is there a component to that? Like when you know.

And you're just like running from it and it doesn't matter if it's. I really don't think it matters if it's business, personal, if there's something, you know, you need to be doing and you're not, you're just lying to yourself.

Absolutely. And you know, to go back to a definition of integrity that I love and integrity is choosing courage over comfort. It's not choosing, you know, what's fun, fast or easy. It's choosing to do what's right. It's choosing to lean into our core values and to show up really is the best version of who we are. And I think, you know, from what you just Said, how do we show up with courage, vulnerability, how do we show up with integrity? I think it's really choosing to show up with the mentality of I'm here in. And this comes from Brene Brown. I'm going to show up with the mentality of let's get this right, not I have to be right. Okay. I'm going to show up as, you know, my wholehearted self to the situation and realize I don't have, you know, I never have all the information, I never have all the details. I don't know the backstory 100% of the time. But I'm going to be willing to be curious. I'm going to be willing to dig in here. I'm going to show up and listen to you at the same intensity that I want to be heard. And I'm, I'm going to be here to try to get this right. It's not about me winning. It's not about you winning. It's really about how do we show up, serve one another in this. Even if it's a really hard situation, a hard decision that has to be made and understand that I can, I don't have to self protect. I don't have to come in guarded or with the walls up, the barriers up. I can come input my whole self, my whole heart in front of us for this conversation or the situation that we're in.

Wow. Thank you. This is very powerful and I know it's helping a lot of people. Like I said, usually it's a behind the scenes conversation. It's like, I don't know what to do, but because again, the entrepreneurs, it's always five to ten steps ahead down the road.

And this is what I'm aiming for, usually for the greater good. And some stupid email thing which we can't stand to begin with. Some minute detail. Well, it's minute until there's 17 of them and it's just every day.

Yeah.

So let's flip this back.

We talked about, and this isn't me deflecting. Like, I think we went deep enough here.

Got it, got it. I can appreciate that.

I do want to go back to. For the listener, because, you know, that's it's about them, not my issues.

But I do appreciate you diving deeper because I literally like this. Anyway, let's give them. Okay, so instead of getting to this point and having to deal with it, what do you suggest to go, okay, if you're looking to build the right team, hire the right people, get the right people in place, whatever the case is how do you ensure. Because just like with clients, how do you solve this problem 17 steps down the road? It's called. You don't. It's called managing client expectations. And you better have done it proper from the front. So let's flip this back with team. How do you get the right team members in place from the get go? And when can you evaluate? Like, do you give them 30 days, 60, 90? Like, how do you not let it get to the point where it's six plus months later, a year later and it's like, man, now I got to go through this again.

Right? Yeah. And there's the like, oh, it's just not working out. We just need to be done. And the person's like, no one's ever talked to me about things not working out. I think if we start with the end in mind here, what does the ideal candidate look like? I do a lot of work with clients on who's an ideal candidate here. What is their education, their experience, what does their wiring look like? What is their unique ability, what is their working genius? There's a lot of ways to sort of that on the front end. What are the leadership skills, the human skills, the technical skills that are sort of the must haves in the role? And the reason that we start there before we ever interview anyone is because, you know, we all have bias that we bring into conversations. And it, I mean, it irks me to no end when I hear someone like, I really love that person. What did you love about them? Oh, like we grew up in the same area and you know, we went to the same college. And in my mind, well, not in my mind, I say this so they look like you, they sound like you, they like the same things as you. You're trying to hire another version of you. Oh no, they have the skills, they don't. You are now like projecting on them that they have the skills that you need. So before we ever talk to anyone, I think we have to figure out what are the sort of, what are the boundaries of this role? What does the role need? What do we need from the. What do we need from the person? And then, you know, we go through the process and I think there's a lot of. There's a book called the who, which has a lot of amazing principles on hiring in it. Once we've interviewed them, once we have them on the team, then it really is, we are going to provide a feedback, rich environment. Feedback every once in a while feels critical or feels fake. So, you know, making sure. That we're intentional. And I would say every week or two you need to be having an very intentional conversation with the person on what's working, what's not working, what's missing, what needs to be added. Where are you confused? Where can we provide better clarity? Just a really intentional conversation with, you know, some pretty simple questions there to really give them feedback on how you are seeing them perform in the role and then give them a chance to give you feedback as well. What do they need from you? What clarity do they need in the role? And really, within the first few weeks, you should really have a good idea. If I'm having to tell this person the same thing over and over again.

Am I not being clear or is there a performance issue that we need to talk about? I think you should really have a good idea by the end of the first 90 days, especially if you've had these conversations every week or two and then you've set the employee up, the team member up for success, because they understand what's expected of them and they understand the value of feedback and communication in the culture as well.

Meetings. Hold on. I'm sorry. That was awesome. Thank you.

Yeah, absolutely.

I have so many more questions about that, but I do want to ask about meetings.

Okay, what's your question about meetings?

You're saying 30, 60, so 30 and 60 days into it, you mentioned having a feedback loop at 90. What about 30 and 60? Do you have anything special like here's what you should be doing here, here and here. And then how often should you be having meetings?

The one on one meetings or even the team that they're working with? That meeting? I would say that's actually an every about two week meeting.

Okay.

And we tend to ask just a couple of questions there. What, what should you start, stop and continue doing? Or if you want to frame it differently, what's working, what's not working, what needs to be clarified or added? You can kind of ask the mix of those questions. I would recommend that that meeting happens every other week and sometimes every week you want to be having the regular one on ones. But that feedback meeting really is for people that are working alongside of them. Their manager. Maybe you're talking in person or to them. No, it can be over zoom. That's a totally fine meeting to have over zoom. If it's in person, it's in person, I've found. I mean, this is a 15 minute meeting, not a long meeting whatsoever. Okay. But then when we get to the 30 day, again, we're getting the Cadence of having these meetings, I might give a little bit more feedback there. I might, you know, make sure that we're kind of digging into deeper issues. And remember, too, I'm asking them for the same feedback to team members or to whomever is.

What if they don't give any?

Oh, no, I got everything I need. And then two weeks later, it's the same stuff. And, oh, I got everything I need. How about this one? You ready, Zach?

I'm ready.

Is there anything going on behind the scenes that I don't know about that you'd like to share that would explain.

This.

The great question. Yeah.

Oh, no, everything's fine.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, have you ever gone to.

Hollywood because you were the best actor on the face of the earth?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think give them time. Right. Like, if you asked me that question 15 days in, I'd be like, are you testing me to see after six months. Yeah. Who my alliances are? Yeah, I think it's a great question to ask. And, you know, I think.

The other part of that should be making sure that we have a culture where everyone is sharing that feedback to the person, not about the person. So we want to make sure we don't have back channeling happening for sure. But, you know, as the senior leader, you don't know everything going on in the organization. So. Yeah, hey, I noticed in this meeting this happened or this, you know, this kind of stuff is happening behind the scenes or this process could get improved, but, you know, I'm not sure maybe what's going on with it. So that insight in providing them a safe place, which you can really take a route here to divert into psychological safety, that's really important when asking team members for feedback. But, I mean, if they're not giving feedback.

It could be pointing to a much bigger issue. Right. Are you not curious? Are you not learning? Do you not feel safe or comfortable? Do you not actually have any feedback? I think that that's a really. That's a big conversation to dig into with that person.

Do me a favor and expand on that a little bit. So if they don't want to give feedback, they don't feel safe.

How do you handle?

Well, Timothy Clark and Amy Edmondson have written a lot about psychological safety.

Psychological safety takes work and time. And just like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, self actualization comes at the top. There's really building blocks to making sure you're creating a psychologically safe environment so people understand what's expected of them. There is collaborator safety. It's a learning culture. We are growth minded. They are seeing the willingness of the leader to receive feedback. You know, there's a lot written on how well we receive feedback mirrors the way that we, you know, the way that people feel comfortable giving feedback in an organization.

So I mean, you really, that's again, the work of the leaders to create that safe environment for people to function within.

But I mean, I think that that's foundational if you want people to share rich feedback that's going to actually make a difference and help grow the organization.

Wow. This is like a masterclass in like what to do and what not to do. Because there's so many nuance. I mean, the nuances of you're dealing with people and ultimately you want to care for them and everything. But.

Can that be a weakness? You care too much. You don't want to hurt them. Because we started this with not having the courage to do this stuff. But at the same time when you said it's probably pretty miserable not hitting the things and then it's like, well, definitely miserable when you just see it happen continually.

That's why I wanted to go back to. So you can ask me whatever you want. Or I really wasn't trying to deflect there because it's not about me, but I really did want to go, okay, if you're listening to this.

And you're not dealing with this exact scenario, what are like three things that, like, how do you prevent it from happening? Because if I was listening to this, I'd be like, okay, sorry Mario, that sucks. But what could you have done to prevent it? So you don't need to go through it, you know, and especially if it's, you know, after 20 years in business, it's not the first, first time it's happened, but I'm always thinking, like, what could I have done better? And that's why I straight up asked you about the SOPs because I'm like, okay, the training could have been better this time. I'm like, no, it's.

20 different videos on every single step. You don't even need to really think about it. It's literally, here's what to do.

Yeah.

If you can't figure it out at that point, like, am I supposed to be signing your name on the homework?

Like, to what degree is it enabling versus.

And you said something else that caught my attention when you said the bare minimum. Like, oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

And that just expands on. Okay, it took you 10 days to do what should take 15 minutes.

Yeah. So can you help Me.

Sorry, I've been busy.

Yeah, that. And that's, I think a really. That's a great conversation. Right. Hey, help me understand why this took you 12 days. Because in my mind, this should take 15 minutes. Help me understand why this took you so long or why you didn't prioritize this. Like, I'm going into that conversation with curiosity and not judgment.

Okay.

But, you know, going back to something that you just said, can we be too kind?

I have never.

When we're really honest, and I'll say this for myself, I have never not had a hard conversation because I was trying to be too kind. I have avoided the hard conversation because I was afraid of how it would make me look. The uncomfortableness of the conversation. It was about me, it was not about the other person. And I think 99% of the time in leadership, if we are avoiding, you know, the hard things because we're trying to be too kind, I think if we really dig into that, there is a strong likelihood that we are avoiding, because of us, how we're going to feel, how we're going to look, that it's going to be hard and awkward and not fun.

It's not really about the other person's feelings.

What if it's you feel?

So this isn't working, but it's at least. Okay. It's moving along very slowly, but it's at least moving along. If I don't, if I do this, then it's going to halt to absolute zero.

If you do this. Meaning you're.

The progress with the work.

Yeah. Okay.

So it should be doing, let's say 10 units a week. It's doing one or two, but at least we're doing one the lot. I guess the logic would be at least we're doing one or two versus zero until we get someone else in place.

The warm body, you know, fallacy. Better to have someone there than no one at all. I would say that's. That's a, That's a hard conversation you have to lean into. Hey, you know, We've talked about 10 units a week. Is the standard that sort of permission to play here? You have been producing two units a week, week after week.

Help me understand you consistently, mind you.

Have we had the conversation, though, with the person about why only two. What's kind of happening that's only letting us get to two, three times. Okay, then it, you know, it's really clear here that this is not the right fit. You know, it's. It, it, you know, we've had this Conversation about figuring it out. We've given you the tools, We've given you the coaching and feedback, and this is just not the right fit for you. And we're happy to help you on your journey. We're happy to help you leave. Well, but this clearly is just not the right thing for you. And that's okay. That's okay.

Fantastic. Seriously. Thank you. Because again, I know there's so many people that deal with this. And you know what?

I've tried helping people just from a human understanding and listening standpoint, because, you know, when I hear about it, it's the nights and weekends when you're supposed to be relaxing with people, other business owners, and.

They can't relax.

It's far and few between when.

Something gets me to the point where I'm at that point.

And I'm thankful for that. I like comedy. I like having fun like we were before we started and everything. And I can.

Kind of forget about it. But when I see my friends and family and people I care about, and it's like you're literally at a party and they're sitting in a corner just like, nibbling on something, it's like, what's going on? Well, you know. And again, well, have you read this book? Have you considered this? And obviously I'm not the expert in this field, but again, working with thousands of people, I've picked up a few things, just how to understand people and.

Just help on a human level. And it's just sad because it's like, there's so many people dealing with this. And it's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on, because there's not enough people talking about it, let alone helping with it. So is there anything I'm not asking, like, oh, here, I hope these questions were good, but is there anything I haven't asked that is something everyone should know.

That you do want to cover that I just don't know about?

You know, I think maybe the. The thing that I would reiterate is oftentimes we. We avoid accountability. Sorry. We avoid accountability. We avoid conflict. And deep down, it's because we know that we've not really provided the clarity, We've not really provided the coaching along the way that we. That that person deserves to have had. And so we avoid because.

We feel bad. We avoid because we might get called out. Yeah. And we might get called out. Right. Like, I've not actually had this conversation with you, so I would just say clear is kind. And I have never heard any team, any employer ever Say, oh, we communicated too much. Oh, you know, we over, you know, over clarified what was expected in the role. Never heard that one time.

Okay, let's flip this again then. Okay. The meetings, the frequency, the cadence and all that. You have the SOPs, you have the training, you're communicating. But where's the point where.

Okay, you have someone on the team obviously to help.

If they require 10 hours of input for you? 10 hours of work, that feels like a bit much. Do you have some like, golden ratio of like. Okay, if for every 5, 10, 20, 40 hours they do, it should re. It should only take this amount of time for input communication. Because I agree the more clarity and all that. But if you do 10 hours work and it takes me even five of like, okay, here, like, that defeats the whole purpose of why you hire people, in my opinion.

Yeah, you. If you're. If delegating is one to one. Yeah, that's long term. That's not feasible. I don't know that I have a golden ratio there, but I would say.

It should be better than that.

It should be. Yes, I'll give you that. It should be better than that. I would say the front end investment always should be paying dividends in the long term. Right. Like the first time I teach you to do something is going to take a long time. The first time I delegate and then we should see the trail off. Right. Like, you should have the autonomy, you should have the resources to be able to do your job and do it well and feel like you're doing well in the job.

But that should be trailing, not, you know, increasing, not ramping up more after.

Six months to go.

Sure.

Okay.

Yeah.

Do you have a chart of this or anything that we can put in the show notes on eainterviews.com for a download or just like, okay, here's what it should. At least a baseline because I have a vivid imagination and my ratio was at least 5 to 1, ideally 8 to 10 to 1. You know, if you're doing 10 hours work, it really shouldn't be taking me. I even think three hours makes me cringe. But ten hours of work takes me three to explain it. That feels like a lot.

Yeah.

Especially if it's the same thing after months and there's no new data, no new info new, no new learning curve. It's like, yo, we've been talking about this like five months. It's like, what, what don't you get? It's click point upload.

Sure. Yeah. The. I always ask people to use the Eisenhower Matrix, keep track of everything that you're doing, delegate the things on the bottom half of that quadrant to people, and then you really should be adding up, like, how much time was that taking you? You know, I think a good. Probably a good metric would be like, it's going to take someone two to three times the amount of time it probably takes you to get that done at first and teach at first.

Okay.

Love those. Right. And then. Yeah. And then that should kind of trail down to whatever their skills and expertise is in. In the position. But that's why I say it's like, probably not a magic formula, but we should be seeing progress, right?

Oh, no, but it should be a return on investment just like anything else.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

What's that metric? I just heard about this recently. I saw it on, I don't know where I was perusing some business journal magazine. And it had, like, employee average salary. This, that it was. Had to do with, like.

The. The value of the employee. Like, if they make 50 grand a year, 100 grand a year, 200 grand a year. That had to do with the ROI, basically, like the average.

Employee value. The r. It was something like if you're paying them 60 grand a year, they're generating 2 to 300 grand a year. And it has.

Sure. Yeah. We work with a lot of agencies and that. That is a metric. Right. So we would say, like, for every employee, we should be generating or bringing in at least, you know, 150 or $200,000, whatever that number is for you. But I think that that is. That's a really good metric to look at. And I think it goes back to something you've been saying, though I can't remember what. It's adjusted gross income per employee, something like that. Yeah. AGI per employee, I think is the official name. But I mean, that's part of your scoreboard, right? You play the game differently. I have three boys. They play the game differently when we're keeping score. So do we have compelling metrics? You talked about the leadership summit. Chris McChesney talks about leading indicators, lagging indicators. What do we. Are we keeping a compelling scorecard? Scoreboard? Do people understand how they affect those numbers, how they're responsible for those numbers? And are we playing a winnable game? I mean, that's all really, really important stuff that we've got to be clarifying and people understanding what the responsibility is in that, too.

I'm so glad that we have a recording of this because you mentioned. I'm so tempted to start looking this stuff up. You said the Eisenhower matrix, Chris McChesney. I'm like, I can't wait to dive into this. You. You had a question, you said something I said earlier.

I forgot. Mario. Well, we were talking, I think. Well, I think it was really on the, the scoreboard and making sure that people understand, you know, kind of going back to that KPI conversation. They understand what their number is, they understand how they affect that, and they have the tools and resources to be autonomous and accountable to that. So I think that maybe was what I was thinking about.

I want to kick it back to the real, real beginning of this.

Okay.

I always like to front load with value for the listeners and everything, but I think we're sufficiently into this. We can roll the front credits now, like in the movie. How did you get into this? Where did this, all this start from?

Yeah, I was sort of propelled into leadership really early on in my 20s, and probably given opportunities to be in leadership positions that I shouldn't have been given, and worked for some really terrible bosses and some really great ones and had some great mentors and leaders along the way and kind of rose up through did marketing and then HR and then led operations for a couple organizations. But I've always loved being the person who helped put vision to action and put strategy behind that. But it's not just about strategy. It's about people, and it's about leading well and really helping people understand their unique giftedness, their leadership abilities, and leaning into the tough stuff like that. That's the marker of a good team. And so it really was, how do I help organizations? How do I help companies create better teams, get better results, and really fundamentally believe you can have really strong and healthy results. You can scale a company and you can have a really healthy team. At the same time, you can be a healthy individual and a healthy leader. So that's really my passion behind it.

I love how you're doing it from a compassion standpoint, because there's people I know, like the businesses, people I know that work for these companies. The businesses are just going gangbusters. But behind the scenes, they're like, you know, they're taking a lashing or 50. Yeah, constantly. And I think it's. I'm like, why don't you do something different? They're like, they pay me so well. And it's like, now you. That courage now, what are you going to lose if you, if you jump ship?

Right, right. Yeah.

Instead of looking at what you'll gain, like your peace of mind, your life, the next 20 years before you. You know, I noticed it in 08. And then a couple years ago, it was like people going, you know what? I should have done this 20 years ago. Now I am, you know, good for you.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, no matter your stage of life, right. Follow your dream and hopefully put your skills and giftedness to you, to good use for those around you.

Let's talk to that person because they're listening. They're in that position. They have that horrible boss.

They need the courage now to do something, to do what they need to do. Dude, maybe they want to start their business. Maybe they want to find a different career path. What would you say to them?

Yeah, I mean, I would say you've got one life. You got one life to live and.

Make it count. Do what you love doing.

Do the work of figuring out your baggage. Do the work of figuring out what you are best at and lean into that. Like that's a gift to others around you and it's gonna be okay. And I, I often think about.

You know, I've heard a lot of people say, like, you should think of your eulogy. I like to say, let's think about your retirement party. It's a little less morbid. What do you hope is said about you at your retirement party? What do you hope is said about the impact that you had on other people? And if you're stuck in a job that you hate and you're not following your dream.

I'm guessing that stuff's probably not going to be said, you know, when you're 60 or 65, when you get to that point. So I would say he always put.

In the extra 10 hours a week at work.

Yeah.

He missed his kids birthdays, right?

Yeah. That's not the stuff that's gonna matter, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. The. The wife and kids or husband, if it's a woman.

You do only get one chance. And.

Yeah, your kids, your partner matter, and your. Your life is not just about your work. Right. Like, we have. We have people around us that matter, with communities around us that matter. And I think when we are. When we're living into the best versions of ourselves, everyone is. Can be blessed by that.

You have given us so much to think about. I do have more questions, but I have one. Oh, yay. And this is why I do it. Because it's fun. It's not a hard question. It doesn't take a lot of courage.

There we go. Yellow or black?

I'll go yellow.

Cool.

What's been one of the hardest things you've had to do in your career, that took the most courage.

Yeah.

Think starting my company, that was a decision I made earlier this year. And it felt like jumping off the side of a cliff and hoping there was water beneath. But it was the right thing, it was the right call. And you know, we've been tremendously blessed and have an amazing team that I get to do work with every day and an amazing family. And that's probably been the biggest step of courage I've made in the last couple of years.

Well, congratulations. I know it is a big step and there's people who don't take it, so congrats.

Thank you.

I'm happy to hear that. We're going to thank the sponsor and come back for the imperfect action round. You've heard me say every business needs a book, including yours, and it's true. And that's why I'm launching my new book@eapublishingmethodbook.com so you can learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. But you know what, don't take my word for it. Take it from a few of my authors like Lori, I went from having an idea and a possibility to actually getting my book published. Or Catherine, thank you for making my.

Mom number one best selling authority.

Or Mary Alice, what he got done for me in three days regarding my book launch.

Unmanageable John Cody.

I've worked with Mario over the phone and online and he's been very helpful in getting me where I needed to go with promoting my books. Rocio, there's no way in the world I would have been able to do this with somebody else again. I've attempted it in the past. It didn't serve me. As a matter of fact, I ended up more frustrated than anything. So this has been a very seamless process. Adele, if you're looking for an amazing business coach, I highly recommend Mario Ficcini or Bill Benner. I can't make a higher recommendation than to work with Mario Ficini. He has been great for me and right now I won't work with anybody else except for Mario.

Hey, their words, not mine. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com to get your copy and I look forward to hearing your transformation as our next video success story. Once again, that's eapublishingmethodbook.com and we are back with the imperfect action round. Zach, are you ready to take imperfect action?

I'm ready.

I got three questions for you. Rapid fire answers. First one, what is the fastest path to the profits.

Clarity and a plan.

Number two, what's the biggest problem you see your prospects making and the fastest way for them to fix it?

Biggest problem I see is leaders avoiding the hard things and hard conversations. And the fastest way to improve on that is hire a coach, hire a therapist and embrace the suck and do the work.

Fantastic. Number three, what is the best way to maximize lifetime value?

I think to put your whole heart into your work. I think to put your whole heart into the work with your clients, with your teams and be the best version of you. The value that you provide is the value that only you can provide. And I think that really translates into hopefully to increased value for your clients, increased value for you and for the team that you get to work with.

All good answers. Love everything you're sharing. What on top of what you've already mentioned, what books would you recommend to Expert Authority World?

Yeah, I would definitely recommend anything by Brene Brown, anything by Jim Collins, Patrick Lencioni.

There is a great book called the Culture Code that talks a lot about the, you know, culture in the workplace. And there's a new book coming out called the Renegades which I've gotten to see, you know, some previews on by a friend of mine named Ben. She runs a company called System and Soul and it really is about the entrepreneurial journey and really creating value in what you are doing. So would highly recommend those books.

Excellent suggestions. Where would you like people to learn more?

Sure. Our website is Intention Collective Co and would love for you to visit over there. We've got some great resources for leaders and for teams.

It has been an absolute pleasure. I wish we had more time because I think we both have more questions we could ask and give even more value. But it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for everything you've been sharing and coming on.

Thanks Mario. Thanks for your time. This was really fun.

All right, Expert Authority World. We have another great episode here today. I'll see you on the next one. Have a great day and God bless. You're already the expert, but have you transformed your expertise into a tangible asset that will generate qualified leads while increasing profit for you 247 and if so, how well are you promoting it? With my new book, the Expert Authority Effect Publishing Method, I take you through my process step by step. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com today to learn the seven steps to publish and promote your nonfiction lead and profit generating business book in eight weeks. Visit eapublishingmethodbook.com to get started. Now. Once again, that's eapublishing method book.com thanks for listening to today's episode. I would love to know what you enjoyed most from it. If you haven't done so already. I invite you to connect with me on my new LinkedIn. You can go to it directly at eainterviews.com LinkedIn Once again, that's eainterviews.com LinkedIn. Lastly, check out the full eainterviews.com site for complete show notes, the full interview video experience, links to the resources we mentioned, and more. Have a blessed day and I'll see you on the next one.