Behind the Curtain: The Man Airbnb Wishes to Keep Hidden

Wow, wow, wow.

Okay, so you are gonna want to make sure you watch this video in full and don't be like doing several things at once. Don't be like washing the pots or driving or whatever. You need to pay full attention to this because this chap I'm about to interview is the guy that Airbnb don't want you to know about, Truly. Enrico from Travis Legal has been helping hosts and management companies over the last four years in particular recover millions from Airbnb and what they did during COVID But on the back of that, he's getting more and more cases now of unlawful suspensions, taking down of listings for some of the craziest reasons. And your mouth will drop with some of the things that has gone onto his docket over the past four years. But what's even more interesting to me is what he's now doing where with all of the regulations and zoning laws that are coming in, he's actually working with Airbnb in some cases to go up against some of the laws that they're trying to come in. The main message with this and the main takeaway is collectively be a collective start up a Facebook start up, a WhatsApp group. And the interview, make sure you watch it throughout, by the way, but the interview really digs into it. It's about 30 to 40 minutes long. But it is very, very, very, very crucial that you do this, because if not, as we said at the Book Direct Virtual Summit, if we don't do this and if we wait for somebody else, then there is no point in generating direct bookings because there won't be anything in your business to generate bookings for. And that's scary. So without further ado, let's jump in to our fascinating interview.

My name is Enrico Schaefer. I am the founding attorney of Traverse Legal plc, which is a law firm that I founded in 2004. And my law firm's always been dedicated to representing technology companies in the, you know, the Internet and tech space. So there are a lot of specialized laws that deal with tech companies, including platforms. We present companies like Airbnb on platform side, software service companies, these types of things. And it just happened to be that when 2020 rolled around, Covid hit and every host got that email from Airbnb saying, hey, we're going to refund all your guests, even if you have a strict cancellation policy. I had three Airbnb rentals at the time, so I got the same email and I do this work. I understand the terms of service, I understand Arbitration. I understand how platforms work. So I ended up getting dragged into this thing because I had this specialized knowledge about what was going on with Airbnb in terms of the platform. I had a several rentals that were going to be affected by the refund. And so just out of curiosity, Mark, I just took a look at the terms of service and the extenuating circumstances policy when I got the email. And at the time, the extenuating circumstances policy said that it covered endemics. And I thought, huh, I wonder what an endemic is. So I looked that up, and I learned very quickly it was the opposite of an epidemic. So I was like, oh, it sounds to me like Covid is not covered by the ecp, therefore these people should not be getting refunds. I didn't think too much of it and came back a couple weeks later and noticed that Airbnb had changed the word endemic to epidemic secretly and had tried to essentially defraud Airbnb hosts pretending that epidemics like Covid were covered, when in fact they were not. So that started me down this path of really kind of representing hosts. And it started out with the Airbnb Covid refunds, of which I still have hundreds of cases pending against Airbnb. Arbitrated hundreds of cases. And in the process of all of that, I ended up developing reputation as kind of the go to attorney for hosts who have issues with Airbnb and property management companies who do Airbnb, this type of thing. And so now I have a lot of other different types of cases. We represent hosts and, you know, owners, property managers on all of the zoning and condo regulation issues, where all of a sudden someone's saying, you can't be an Airbnb in this particular locale. We represent hosts against Airbnb when there is some sort of adverse action taken by Airbnb against the host, either they refuse to make a payout, or they suspend or terminate the host from the platform. And the host is trying to get reinstated to the platform because from the host point of view, they didn't breach the terms. There was no justified reason for removing them. These types of issues. And then, of course, there's the, you know, the disputes that deal with, you know, sometimes there's a. There's a, you know, a bogus rating that is provided by a guest that's, that's for, you know, doing reputational damage that the host wants removed and should have been removed under the Airbnb policies, but was not. So it's a whole variety of different, you know, litigation, arbitration, and just general business representation of Airbnb hosts.

It's still crazy to me that, what, four years later, there are still cases on your docket relating to Covid. Have we got any end in sight when it comes to those cases?

Yes, because as of March 13, about two weeks ago, the statute of limitations ran and so no further claims could be brought, presumably for Covid refunds. So the last cases have been filed and everything's going to run its way through the system. And, you know, we started out, we were losing more cases than we were winning. And the reason was, is, I think, because everyone was still traumatized by Covid. And so didn't matter what the law was, didn't matter what the contract said. There were a lot of arbitrators were like, but Covid, you know, was the defense. But Covid, you know, as we got further away from COVID and everyone just was basically fu. Covid. Right. So the whole thing flipped on its head and now, you know, mulched the vast majority of arbitrators. Look at the contract, look at the ecp, look at what Airbnb did. And I think I've won like eight of the last nine cases that I've tried personally, of the team of lawyers that we've got trying these things, just because it's so obvious that what Airbnb did was fraud.

So the majority of the new cases that are coming into your docket, into your world, into your company, how would you sort of break down like the, the percentages from, let's just say zoning laws to Airbnb kicked you off the platform. T's and C's guests, Like, how would you say, like, the majority of the things that are coming for hosts and management companies are coming to you and saying, team, we need your help here.

So it's a good question. I think that the biggest thing happening right now, honestly, are municipal regulations, government regulations, trying to limit short term rentals in certain areas and neighborhoods. So that is a trend that has really picked up steam in the last 18 months. And, you know, we, we get a lot of folks who are like, hey, I'm either being selectively enforced because there's, you know, 200 other Airbnbs in my neighborhood and no one's coming after me. Or what will often happen is these issues will morph into, we help people get organized on a, you know, a geographic basis, get the hosts all banded together and then challenged municipal ordinance. If it's a condo association issue, we look at the condo docs and trying to find where you know, the regulation wasn't, wasn't put in place properly. So that's a big ticket item that I don't see going away anytime soon. The kind of, the strategy that Airbnb is using, and we're aligned with Airbnb on this particular issue, is that they're going to the states in the US and trying to get the states to legislate that municipalities cannot ban short term rentals. So Florida is right on the cusp of passing such a statute. And so there'll be certain things that you could do, permitting and the rest, but you can't just ban short term rentals. So we'll see how that, how that goes. The next biggest category is certainly accountable suspensions and terminations. Hosts get suspended and then ultimately terminated all the time. It's shocking to them when it happens because in most cases, they have no idea what, what has happened or why, or they do know that the guest simply made something up. And Airbnb always sides with the guests. Right. The guest says there's a camera in the, in the bathroom. There's not. Right. The guest says that the host said something discriminatory, but they didn't. So there's a whole set of different things that can get you tossed from the platform, some of which are legitimate and are within Airbnb's rights. Right. But there's a good percentage of people who all of a sudden just find themselves without the ability to use the platform. And they did nothing wrong. And they're fairly traumatized because, you know, that house is putting the kid through college, or they can't make the payment on the mortgage without the income, or you think they're, this is their business. And they've got 30 properties that are all of a sudden delisted from Airbnb.com, leaving them with either direct bookings or VRBO. So it definitely is a big, a big problem. And what people fail to understand is Airbnb doesn't care if they get it wrong. They cannot staff the problems that occur in the world that they have created. So I think most of us realize that VRBO kind of takes one approach and Airbnb takes the opposite approach. VRBO mostly stays out of it. Leaves it to the host and the guests to figure stuff out. With some exceptions, Airbnb wants to have their finger on everything. Right? They want to control all, all of the aspects of your rental. And so in order to do that, you'd have to staff it. Right. If you're going to get involved in every dispute if you're going to be the arbiter of everything, you have to put the adequate investigation team in place to be able to sort through things. Airbnb does zero in terms of support, as we know. They don't investigate anything with any, with any credible or reasonable approach. So that result is just a tremendous number of arbitrary decisions being made by Airbnb. And yeah, you're right, yes, you're driving revenue to Airbnb. But no, they, they just don't care. Right? So I think that that's another big chunk of them. There is this is this third category of hosts who end up being severely traumatized or injured by a guest attack. Or it turns out that the guest is an arsonist and the Airbnb won't, you know, didn't. That didn't do the background check they promised. And all of a sudden there's an arsonist living in the spare bedroom of your home with your kids in there and Airbnb and they're having a mental breakdown. And Airbnb does nothing to help you get that guest out of the property. And in fact, we'll then kick you off the platform for, you know, having called the police to try and save your family from being burned to the ground. Right. So there's a lot of stuff like that that happens that's like in the injury category where Airbnb failed to do something and the host is injured as a result. I think those primary categories, I think the other one would be that, you know, people who are really serious about this and have lots of properties with property management companies, they hire us to do contracts, rental contracts, you know, to help file the corporate organizational documents, to protect them from, you know, certain liabilities, you know, partnership agreements, when they bring in investors, all this sort of stuff. So just general outside counsel, corporate work.

Quick break from the podcast to let you know that the two boostly books that we brought out, the book Direct Playbook and the book Direct Blueprint, are two of the top rated and the best selling in the hospitality category on Amazon for just two pounds. You can grab both of those books right now. The foundations and the structures that you need to put in place is in the Blueprint. And then for 101 marketing tactics, that is in the Playbook. So go and grab a copy on Amazon now. Just type in Book Direct Playbook or the book Direct Blueprint and we'll see you on the other side. There's loads to unpack there. One thing that I found that was really interesting is that you've got with certain cases, you are working against Airbnb. Well, then in some circumstances, with the zoning laws, you're actually working kind of alongside.

How.

How does that come down? Like, I. I can't even begin to imagine, even though I've watched many episodes of Suits and, and Billions over the years on the tv, but I can't even began to imagine how. Where in one circumstance, let's just say one day you. You're discussing something and going against Airbnb, and then the next day you could be working alongside them.

How.

How does that work from, like a professional scale for you, for yourself? How do you even get around that mentally?

Yeah, it's a great question. And the answer, I think, goes back to something I say to arbitrators all the time, which is, we love Airbnb. We built Airbnb. Did Airbnb go and buy a home and take on a mortgage in order for its platform to be successful? Did they do the cleaning? Do they do the maintenance? Do they do all of that white glove, five star service to make the guests happy? No. Host do all of that work and Airbnb benefits and takes a cut as a result. But the partnership that Airbnb, that Brian Chesky always promised to host, has been an illusion. But that doesn't mean that hosts aren't still pursuing that partnership. That is to say, how much better off would Airbnb did if they treated hosts with respect, if they performed the obligations that they're contractually agreed to perform or that they market on their homepage? Like, is it surprising to people to know that Ear cover is just a big consumer fraud? That Air cover is. If there's any sort of significant claim, it's just fraud. They won't, they won't protect you at all. They'll do nothing for you if someone burns your house down. So, like, why, you know our big question, why? Why are we not on the same team? And so one of the mantras that I've. I've had since the beginning has been, individually, hosts are powerless against Airbnb. Collectively, we're bigger than Airbnb and we're just asking for a seat at our own kitchen table. So that's my attitude, is like, where we can align, we align where. Where we have to bludgeon the child into submission so that they aren't being stupid, then that's what we do. Right. And so arbitration is a primary tool for people who have properties in the US or are US Residents. Arbitration is the dispute resolution route. And Airbnb put that in place knowing the vast majority of hosts would never file for arbitration. We, our law firm has filed more arbitrations than all other arbitrations ever filed against Airbnb by host individually, ever. And there's almost no one else out there doing this but us in terms of representing host. But you don't need us. You can file your own arbitration. And that, to me, is the part of this equation of how we restore balance to the force, right? And Airbnb doesn't have the money or the time or the resources to fight hosts in arbitration. It costs them far more to arbitrate than to just simply pay the host or deal with the issue. So the more arbitration that gets filed, that get filed, either represented by counsel or unrepresented by counsel, the more leverage hosts have to, to force fairness on the. Onto the system.

There's a word that I've circled while I'm taking notes as you've been speaking, and it was collective, like collectively coming together. If you try and do this yourself, you know where, but if you do it collectively, you've got a chance. And not only is collectively when coming together against Airbnb and what they did during COVID but collectively when it comes to zoning, zoning laws and regulations that are coming in. So I guess my, my first true question is, from all of the things that you've been looking at, all of the cases you've looked at and you've actually gone to with it, what can somebody do? What could a host do to start to come together as a collective? What could be some best practices that they could start to do in their area, locally, nationally, statewide? You know, however, what is that sort of advice that you could pass on to a host to start to come together collectively to start to fight these multiple issues?

That is the key. That is the most important question that I think hosts should be asking right now. And I think you've already suggested part of the answer, which is on a, on a local level, every municipality, every locality should have a short term rental organization where you and your neighbors know who is in the short term rental game. It could be a. It usually is. It starts out as a Facebook group, right? And so you've got this group of people so that you can know what's going on at a government level when there's a meeting where this is going to be discussed, you've already got your group together. You could activate, right? If you need to push back against municipal regulation, you already have the people in place to do that and the commitment that, hey, everyone's going to chip in a thousand dollars to get legal representation. Because again, collectively, for most municipalities, they don't want to spend money on legal, they don't want to fight things in court, they don't have it in their budget. Citizens get pissed when all of a sudden they realize $80,000 of tax money went to fight a cause that. Right. Because there are so many hosts in an area, it's really easy to fund up that fight and use that economic leverage in order to either change a municipal regulation or zoning law or to get a seat at the table and come to consensus as to what a good permitting and licensing system might, might look like, then they can on a state. So in Michigan, there is a great short term rental organization, very well organized and funded. You know, when things are happening at a state level now, you can go and work with Airbnb and lobby the legislature to be able to, you know, you know, be able to affect those laws. To get the base law that everyone's trying to get in the state level is exactly what's happening in Florida. Municipalities have their hands tied behind their back in terms of trying to ban short term rentals. And the argument there is, you know, this is my property, right? Like, you know, this is, this is a draconian law, municipal regulation, saying you cannot ever, under any circumstances, when, if the problem is noise, there's noise ordinances, enforce those. If the problem is trash, there's trash ordinance, enforce those. Right? So there's a whole host of laws that are already on the books that should cover any problems. And once you get rid of those problems because they're being enforced properly, then what's the justification for banning short term rentals? Right? So get organized. The other is, I mean, groups like you clearly put together at Boostly, like we need to get organized at every possible level in every possible way so that when things are happening, we can not only share the knowledge, which happens organically in a lot of these groups, but be proactive in advocating for ourselves. And what hasn't really happened is advocating as against Airbnb. How do we, as a, you know, how do we as a, a loosely affiliated set of organizations start to push Airbnb into a position where they are now creating a true committee of hosts who do help create policies and the implementation of those policies? And I think arbitration is a key component of that because at some point Airbnb is going, you know, they, in, in these cases that we filed on Covid, we're talking about tens and potentially, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars just in transactional fees and attorneys fees for them to fight it. You know, that's a lot of money. Even for everybody.

That is a lot of money. So obviously we don't want everybody to go to arbitration. Obviously we don't want to go down that route. Some people have to go down that route. So I guess for those that are watching, what would be some effective strategies for hosts to manage disputes, but most importantly, protect their interests, you know, without having to go down the route of arbitration. Where, where would you say to somebody to. To make sure you've got your bases covered so it doesn't have to go down that route. But most importantly, if it does, it just makes the case a home run.

So let's take two categories of situations. One is you didn't do anything wrong, but you still got kicked off. There was really nothing you could do about that. Right? And then there's this other. Where you screwed up and now you're trying to say, I won't do it again. But they've got the right to throw you off or what have you, right? Cancel all your upcoming bookings and throw you off the platform, which is what happens. The first thing that you need to do is you need to understand the policies of Airbnb. So I do get people who contact me and they use discriminatory languages against a guest of a particular background, and I tell them, you're done. You know, no one's going to side with you, right? You can't excuse that. You can't say, but I'm justified in my, my, my discrimination. Because that's not the asset that the test is. Does Airbnb have the right to say that there should be no discriminatory language used between hosting guests on the platform and every arbitrator is going to agree that they can. Right? So understand the policies. You didn't disclose where the cameras were, right. You're, you're going to be in trouble. You're going to have a hard time getting back on the platform if you screw up the camera policy. Right? So I think that the other one is if you, if they really scaled up, scaled up background checks, if you have a prior criminal, misdemeanor or felony, any prior criminal action that's been taken against you, whether found guilty or not, these background check companies can't turn that information up and they automatically trigger a review by Trust and Safety. And they err on the side of caution and they throw people off. Right? They, they get that wrong sometimes and people get thrown off and they, that was the wrong person or they didn't do anything. Right. But if you've got that in your history, you need to be aware that you need to be, you know, gravitating towards VRBO and direct booking and maybe pushing things off to Vacasa because they're, you know, they're going to be the hosting account. So you. You need to be aware of that part of it. And the other category of you didn't really do anything wrong. What I typically see is in termination actions, I see things like a guest lied about some sort of interaction or lied about a camera or is looking to be retaliatory. Making the communications go through the platform is. Is. Is the best way, because then Airbnb can see it. But if it's going to go through text message, you need to make sure you've got a documented record of what really happened. And if the guest said anything that smacks of extortion, if you don't give me a refund, I will report you to Airbnb. That. That usually will save the day for you. Right? So make sure that you're preserving evidence that you're accumulating that stuff. For another big category of folks who get kicked off are because of what are called associated accounts. If your son, at age 17, got a misdemeanor assault charge while in high school, went off and joined the military, went to Europe and served over there, but happened to come home 10 years later for Christmas and share an Internet connection with you, I've had clients who've been thrown off the platform because they are associated with the son who got kicked off the platform on a background check and visited and shared an Internet connection with the parents over Christmas. And of course, those cases, we usually win and win big because they're so ridiculous and so unjustifiable. And so when Airbnb actually tries to justify what it did, it just tends to backfire. Right? So that associated account can be linked to your spouse. If your spouse has been thrown off or suspended, then you've got a problem. If your spouse has a criminal conviction, that's a problem. If you buy a home that five years earlier was being operated by a host as an Airbnb who got kicked off, they will link that address and they will throw you off thinking that you are the prior host or associated with the prior host. Um, so let's. So all that kind of stuff can happen. You did nothing wrong and you. You want to try and not end up in arbitration. So what'll happen is usually, but not always, they will suspend you first, while they do an investigation. Right. But they won't tell you why they're. What they're investigating. You have to guess. So you better do everything you can, try and figure out what it is you're defending against. And if you can figure that out, then you've got to make sure that you're telling your story in a way that is. That is legally sound. That is not just a. Well, yeah, but. Right. It's like, gotta be legally sound defense that, like, this did not happen. Here's the proof it didn't happen. Right. And so during that suspension period, you still have access to the platform, so you could communicate with Airbnb. Once you're terminated, there's no. You have no option but arbitration because you can't even send an email, right? They're gonna pick up the phone. So there's no way for you to actually make your case. So you do in that suspension period. I do get retained sometimes to help with the response or to simply put on letterhead with my name, a letter back upstream to Airbnb saying, I'm not representing them and you better be. You know, taking a hard look at this. This is our position, right? So they. They know who I am, obviously. So that can. That can do something that I'm always advising, which is you've got to ask for a supervisor and the supervisor's supervisor. You keep pushing to get to a higher level of review, because what that really just means is a level of review. A lot of these suspensions, nothing happens during that suspension. They don't look at anything. They just. Two weeks later, someone realizes that their easiest way for them to do their job is just terminate and boom, you're. You're done. So understand the policies. Don't violate the policies. Understand how the terms of service work. Understand that they have all of the leverage and that fare has nothing to do with it. Right. Be dispassionate, get your documents together, make your best case on suspension. And if you have to go to termination, you can do that arbitration yourself or. Or through council. If you're outside the United States, then there's no arbitration option. You have to file a suit where you either reside or in Ireland. And so there's. There's a different dispute resolution system for people outside the United States.

If you're struggling on how to get direct bookings and overwhelmed on where to start, then I recommend you go and book in a call with Boostly and our team right now. We can walk you through exactly what we're offering. How we can help you and give you a portfolio of websites that we have worked with that are matching not only your niche, but could be in your location as well. Boostly has helped over 2000 hospitality businesses all over the world increase their direct bookings. And if you are interested, then all you need to do is go to Boostly. B O O s t l y.co.uk call and booking an appointment with one of our sales team. Say that we are now going to the process of arbitration. Let's just say that it's gone past the case of being able to contact them. And again, you've got a lot of track records on this. You've helped a lot of people with this. What would you say is the most common mistake you see hosts make when it gets to arbitration? They come to you, they come to your team. What is that biggest mistake that you see people make?

I think one of the big mistakes is just be getting too caught up on how unfair it is. That cannot be the, the, the lens by which you pursue this, because that's irrelevant. It's not fair. Right. You have to be strategic. And so you have to understand what Airbnb's defenses are going to be. And then generally they're going to be that there's all kinds of boilerplate language in the terms of service that, that they will argue, say Airbnb can do whatever it wants for whatever reason it wants, and no one can question its judgment, not even the arbitrator. That's not what the terms say, but that's what they're going to argue. Right. And so that's their foundation is that they, that, that. That the terms give them this right. And there are two categories of terms of service. There's, there's language that's super general and there's language with. That's specific. The specific language says that they can, for instance, terminate you if you breach the terms of service or if, for the safety of the community, if you didn't breach the terms of service and there's nothing unsafe about you, you should be able to win that contract argument. Right, but that's super specific. That's what happened here. That's what they told you. You breached the terms cause you violated the community policy. So that's what you're arguing and let them go ahead and argue all the other stuff. It's like, well, a reasonable person reading this would think that this paragraph that says specifically what happened here is the one that applies and I am not unsafe and I did not breach. So you want to Be focused and you want to focus on the, either the policy language or the terms of service language, depending on it's usually going to be that you violated a policy. So you got to go find that policy, do a PDF of that policy so you could show that you, you know, that you did nothing wrong. So I think that's it. That's definitely a big one. I think the other one is you have to understand that there are damage limitation provisions which do control. And so if you're going to get back on the platform, the main thing you're looking to do is get back on the platform. But you're not going to get lost profits for the six or eight months it takes you to go through the arbitration process. And if you ask for that, on one hand you're saying enforce the contract, but on the other hand you're saying don't enforce the contract against me. Right, so that pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. I've seen it happen so many times where hosts just were too indignant, too full of themselves too I, you know, I want $2 million in damages and ended up losing across the board because they just didn't come across very well in arbitration. You want to be balanced, you want to be businesslike, these types of things. So understand that you could get the money for the reservations that they cancel because of the termination. So all your future can't booked and canceled reservations, you can get back on the platform. And in extreme circumstances, maybe they, that some, they'll do something more for you, the arbitrator. But you don't want to push too hard on that. You certainly can tell them that, oh, by the way, this has cost me, you know, $300,000 in revenue that I would have had. But you gotta be very careful about how hard you push on that particular stone. I think that's it.

This is some fascinating stuff. There's some fascinating things in here. And we've got a very small select group of members who are tuning in and watching this. And I hope you're really paying attention to this. And it's, you know, it's so hard. You know, you think of it from just like a human point of view. To be able to take out all emotion when there's so much riding on it is must be tricky. But the absolute win is there. So I guess the final question, and I really do appreciate your time and we're going to make sure we link up how people can get in contact with you after. But we're getting to a point now where there is so much of this happening, and it's not going to slow down the more that Airbnb grows. And the thing that's fascinating to me is that they, they're growing and they want to grow and they want to be this behemoth, but they want to have a touch point on every single aspect of the booking process where the more established providers, Expedia group, which is vrbo, and booking.com, which is obviously the booking Holidays group, they sort of have a finger point to a certain level, but then they just let the guest and the host deal with the rest. But Airbnb are insistent on, on this, but at the same time, they haven't put the things in place to, to help scale it, which is bananas to me. But anyway, how do you see the relationship between Airbnb specifically and hosts evolving, particularly regarding, you know, dispute resolution? And I guess the follow on would be what steps can host take to advocate for better protection and terms from Airbnb?

Yeah, it is a, it's a movie target, right. I mean, we, I think we always had the sense that, that, that Airbnb sides with the guests. Right? It's the easiest thing that they, they, they, the bean counters in the back, especially as they move towards ipo, did the, the numbers crunching and they realized that guests are financially more valuable than hosts. Right. And I can see how that math would, would work out, you know, and so, you know, that, that caused them to take this approach that the guest is always right. Now what happened? So we've already had a huge impact on Airbnb with the COVID arbitrations and all these other arbitrations that we filed. So that what happened after all the COVID chaos is Airbnb went to a marketing campaign that said, brought to you by hosts. Right? That was their, their effort to try and appease what, you know, what was clearly this outrage amongst the host community about how they were being treated. Right. It really highlighted what was on the fringes and brought it into the spotlight. Airbnb doesn't care about you. You are not their partner. Right. So I think that the pendulum has swung back a little bit towards the host. And we do see that in, in the fact that they, they do not want to deal with, with us in our arbitration cases on termination and the rest. Whereas initially they were very adamant that they're just always right. Now that they've gotten tagged so many times in arbitration, they will negotiate with us now. So these are all signs that they're trying a little harder. Right. And I think we need to continue to push on that trend line in all the different ways that hosts can be organized and have a voice, right? Dispute resolution, you know, they haven't made dramatic changes to the dispute resolution provisions of the terms of service. And part of that is because their hands are tied. If they want the class action waiver provision to hold, they've got to provide effective dispute resolution and fair dispute resolution terms to hosts because they've taken away the host's biggest right, which is to go to court and to file a class action. So they're kind of stuck there in terms of, you know, of the process. You know, if they could have more dramatic language saying, you know, we always win, they would. VRBO's terms of service are actually far less balanced, and dispute resolution is, is, is far more of a joke under the literal terms. But you don't end up there, the vrpo very often, right? So they, they, their terms may or may not even be enforceable because they're so ridiculous. But with Airbnb, I think that over the last five years, it appears to me that they're going to stick with this dispute resolution process. The variable is how many people are going to file lawsuits in their place of residence outside the US Find an attorney, right? Do a small claims action, do it on your own, and how many people are going to file arbitrations, because the more of that pressure they feel, the more they have to staff up to get it right in the first place.

This has been fascinating, and even if you're watching this and you are not a U.S. citizen, or even if you are a U.S. citizen and you're not based in the U.S. this is just to see the other side of all of this is, is fascinating and I want to thank you very much for being part of this and for coming on and sharing this knowledge. So the best place for people to go. You sent me two links. Can you just spell Travis Legal for everybody, please?

My pronunciation like traverse, right? T R A V E r s e legal. L e g a l traverselegal.com but you could also Google like Enrico and Traverse or Enrico and Airbnb Lawyer. And I've got, you know, probably over a hundred thousand pages of content that come back on search, so I'm pretty easy to find. Focused on the word Enrico.

Yeah, fantastic. And there's a, there's, there's YouTube, there's everything. And we'll put all of the links, all of the documentation in the blogs, and all of the follow up to this. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you. So much. I guess the final thing is if there's anybody who, in the US who is just at that point where they need help and guidance, is there any particular docket you're looking to take on at the moment? Any type of client? Are you just saying, listen, reach out, we'll have a chat and we think it's worthwhile. We'll, we'll take it from there?

Yeah, that's, that's pretty much it. We've got a. Since I know what all of the issues are like. I know, I know what you're going to say. Right. I know. As long as you tell me the general category, I'm ready to help you right now. I don't need to spend a whole lot of time, you know, trying to figure out what's going on. So we've actually got a, a $550 project that a lot of hosts sign up for, which is just, you know, I've got this question about, you know, I've been suspended. I need someone to take a look and improve my response. I've gotten a, a, a bad review from a guest that tried to extort me. What are one of my options? Right. The vacation rental company management company is screwing me over. Right. So for $550, we'll take a look at background documents and actually represent you and actually provide you legal advice on specific issues. And we can get you a tremendous amount of value at that level. And then sometimes that spins into a bigger representation. Sometimes that's all you need to get, you know, from here to there to understand your issue well enough to know how to navigate it yourself. So I think that, that, that, you know, that's probably what I do more than anything is have these one hour conversations with hosts on specific issues and then send them on their way. And hopefully that's all it takes.

We really appreciate it. You are truly the guy that Airbnb doesn't want to know about. And we thank you for your time.

Thanks.