Marketing Specialist And Award Winning Designer Shares Winning Strategies For Hospitality

Welcome to another episode of behind the Host podcast here and today I'm excited because we are joined by Tatiana Taylor Tate. She's an award winning designer and marketing specialist. She's based in Vancouver in British Columbia in Canada. Extensive experience in interior design and real estate. She's got an amazing Instagram. If anybody doesn't actually know Tatiana, please, please go and check out her Instagram. She's got almost 13,000 followers and is of course now an international best selling author. So really pleased to have you on the podcast today, Tatiana and thank you for joining me.

Thank you so much for having me. And can I bring you everywhere to do that kind of introduction?

Absolutely, yes. Maybe I've missed recording. That's what I should do. So obviously on the behind the Host podcast, the aim of today is to dive into your hosting, your short term rental business and to really go through the details and to share with the listeners how they can either get started or some inspiration and some of the things that you've done and found successful in your business that they may be able to sort of copy across into their business as well. So first of all, you know, feel free to introduce yourself and let us know how you got started in the world of short term rental.

Perfect. Well, thank you. I'm Tetiana Taylor Tate and of course I already had an amazing introduction there. But a little bit more about me is I've been in the interior design world and short term rental world for now going on seven and a half years, which it has been a pleasure to be a part of. With that a little bit on, on my background on how I got started. Like most hosts, I think we kind of fell into it in a way. And that's one of my favorite things about it is I kind of stumbled across this, but it definitely opened up the whole experience in itself was just life changing for me. Originally when I got started, I was going through the whole loss of my mother and then of course the loss of my best friend, my furry best friend, which was my dog that I had for 10 years as well. So I was kind of in a hard place, stuck, feeling lost, feeling stuck in my job and not knowing what to do. And then just shortly after that, I ended up losing my job and getting laid off at the same time. So now for most people and myself, I thought that was rock bottom. I wasn't sure what to do. And of course if you check out the hospital host book, you will read a bit up on my story as well. But from there, hosting all started because I Just wanted to travel and I was in search for a purpose, for some kind of meaning of what I wanted for my life and what that would look like. And I just didn't want to give up my apartment. So I just decided I heard about people talking about Airbnb and short term rentals. So I was like, you know what, I'm going to give it a try. What's the worst case? What's the worst situation that could happen? And from there it booked out instantly and ended up funding majority of my trip while covering my expenses at home. So from that I kind of said, hey, there's something here. And you know, this allows me to connect with people and build a community online. So I started connecting with people as I was traveling and really liked what I was seeing as well as I stayed at like different hostels and took that whole idea and brought it back home with me. So from there it kind of really started to unfold and I not only was renting out my spare bedroom while I once I came home, I then started partnering with a developer and do doing interior design with him and setting up short term rentals for his clients which then just really snowballed into what it is today.

I mean, there's so much to unpack there and the subjects I really want to pick up on out of that is we see a theme with many hosts who are struck by some sort of life changing event and it sort of pushes them to search for change. And going into Airbnb and hosting is one of those changes that you can get into and really find not only the cash flow is great from it, but also the pleasure of actually hosting guests and giving people experiences from all around the world. So there's definitely that aspect I want to dive into. The other thing you mentioned was, you know, picking up ideas to be able to take back home to your, your, your lets and of course hospitable hosts. We've mentioned which hospitable hosts if, if anybody hasn't checked out. I've been talking about it for, for a little while now, but please go and visit www.hospitablehosts.co.uk or.com sorry. And you can pick up a copy of the book where there's 40 authors from around the world, awesome people who have shared their story. There's inspiration, there's motivation and there's some really amazing tips in there to get started and you know, for experienced hosts in there, your journey of, of doing that. And I've read your chapter, of course, Tatiana and One of the things you mentioned is because you've put your home on Airbnb and you've then gone traveling, that there was things that, you know, there was bumps along the way where people may call in the middle of the night. So talk me through in those early days, how did you deal with some of the issues that came up and what systems have you now got in place to deal with late night calls or things that you don't expect with Airbnb?

Oh, man. So a lot of different situations have happened, of course, and it was a learning experience. Experience in so many ways. I think any host, and I tell this to even all my students as well. Like the one thing you will learn in this business the most and take away with you is resilience. No matter what is thrown at you, you have to be on your feet constantly thinking what is the best solution, problem solving the best that you can and as quick as you can. So a lot of things that I initially had to deal with, of course, I've always been lucky that I've had in the early stages when I didn't have cleaners or anything like that at the beginning I had friends and family that I could rely on or send a message to or anything from there. So I was very lucky starting out with that. Of course, I feel like there's always like someone, I don't know if it's just me maybe, but like I've always been lucky that I've had a family member that did cleaning or something like that, or you could like pay them extra bucks to like clean or whatever. So I've always had that. And I love, even when, even now with my team, I always say you keep it in the family. And even if they're not actually my family, I try to build a family and make sure that, okay, maybe my cleaner also wants to learn how to do property management or anything like that. So I try to really give as many opportunities as I possibly can. In the beginning stages, after I was doing so, when I was renting out my unit, that was a lot easier because I was living there at the time. So I knew where everything was. I knew ways to resolve the problems quickly. If they couldn't get something, I would have a friend drop it off or anything like that, or have it sent to the home. When I moved on to renting a seven bedroom house, which I took, this was one of the concepts I took from traveling, but where when I was staying at hostels, I was like, I love this. I love people get to connect and there's communal spaces. So I partnered with another developer and rented a seven bedroom house from him. And this is kind of where I fell, I guess into the rental arbitrage method. And that house took years off my life. I have to admit that that house was run down when I first got it. People had broken into it. They've taken the copper pipes out of the walls. It was a nightmare. Yes. And so I had to fix it up as best that I could. And in this case it was probably lipstick on a pig. And it was the only way I could turn this place to make it like seem trendy and cool was like do Boheme. And which really is kind of like a mis. Of like we're trying, but this is mix and match things, right? So in that house, it was amazing in the community that it created. But I had to deal with, there were stages where the basement flooded twice there as we had guests supposing like supposedly to be checking into those rooms that were in the basement. We had to deal with rats. So I had to deal with, for the first time in my life having to deal with rats and pest control and all these things, which that was a nightmare. And then just small things like the lock, battery dying or anything, power outages, stuff like that. But I learned so much just from that one property and, and how to pivot and how to adjust to certain situations. And really, at the end of the day, regardless of what kind of nightmare incident happens, it all comes down to the hospitality and the customer service that you are bringing to your guests. Because regardless of a flood happening in the basement, all I had to do was move them to a different room and explain the situation kindly, maybe drop off a bottle of wine or anything like that. And it was no problem. They're still leaving a great review for me and the experience knowing that what I was up against, that message of.

Resilience is one that everybody can really share in with short term rental. And the line that I can remember in the book is that you learn to be resourceful, you learn to be really resourceful. And that's exactly what you've shown here. Having a great team around you is so important. And I must admit, for anybody listening, my mum and dad cleaned my first short term rental property. And without them doing that and learning the systems, it's good to have good friends and good family around you to get started in this industry. And like you say, when you're then traveling, you can then have these people, you know, sort of attend some of the, some of the stuff when you're unavailable, which is great. So talking about the house, which, you know, you mentioned lipstick on a pig for that one, which is a great term, I'm going to keep that, if I may, and that that brings nicely on to interior design. So interior design, how important has it been in your, in your short term rentals and how important is it for people who are listening to consider aspects of interior design?

Huge, I think. So there's a couple ways on what I always say that your guest is looking for when they initially book with you. And usually that of course is price, location and style. People want to stay in places that are better than their current properties they're living in, I'm sure, and it's safe to say anyone listening to this and yourself, and I'm sure when you're looking for a hotel or an Airbnb or anything that you're going to go on for vacation, you're not looking for a house that looks like what you currently are living in or less than you want to feel luxurious in that moment. You want to stay in something unique that you get to like. You know, if we want to admit it or not, that we get to show off to our friends and family online. And so when it comes down to design and style, it's one of the most important things that I want hosts to really focus on. And I think that whole aspect really now is fueled so much more, of course, when look at what Airbnb just released, how design heavy, how unique they want their spaces, that that is how you can search for properties now. So especially now coming 2022, we're halfway through 2022 that if you are wanting to get into this business and you're wanting to get started, that is how you are going to differentiate yourself so much from the competition. If not, you know the most when you're stepping into this industry.

I love that. That is a great little sound bite just there. That is brilliant. And like you say, when you've got, you know, so many different places to choose from, we're often looking for the next, you know, sort of next level up from our own homes. We want somewhere a bit unique. One of the top tips, which somebody told me in my early days, was to always think about the bed sizes. And if you, if you stay in your own home, if you've got a king size or a larger bed, you're not going to book a double when you go away, you're going to look for the same size or bigger. So it's always bearing that in mind, if you're serving the ledge, the leisure sort of industry, then you really need to be taking into consideration their experience and, and how they're going to feel just looking at the pictures. So yeah, 100.

Yeah. And I agree with that right now to give an example is I'm furnishing, we're doing some renos at the moment and then furnishing a five bedroom vacation rental in Whistler which is about an hour and a half away from Vancouver. That property, we know that we want to sleep 10 to 12 people. And so already in that we're trying to maximize the rooms as most as we can without jeopardizing on quality and comfort. So that means I'm fitting as many king size beds in this property as that will allow. As well as queens, I honestly avoid buying doubles at all. Like, I don't like doing that just because in the past I've seen completely complaints from people if you come with your couple and you know that's hard for two people to share a double, let alone a queen, especially if you're coming from a king size. But with that I always recommend if it can fit, fit a queen or a king, definitely go for it. Or you want to do twins or anything like that. A double, it is kind of, it's hard to really get comfort out of that for two people at least.

Definitely, definitely. So we talked about your interior design and one thing I really want to come on to within this is your Instagram, your amazing Instagram and the awesome reels. And that's, that's how I discovered. Yeah. Tatiana is through your reels, you know, is they're hilarious. There's, you know, there's a lot of information in them. They've got the design so hotspots and things like that. So talk me through how you've grown your Instagram and how, what impact has had on your hospitality business.

Honestly. So majority of my business is through Instagram. So I would say it is a huge impact on my business and building up that community that I love. Creating reels that are informative and provide value or one of the things that I've always been big on is, you know, when you like sign up to something and of course it's part of the business, but you sign up to something or you go to a speaking event and you think when you're going to that speaking event that you're going to get everything, you're going to know how to do the job. At the end of the day, as soon as you walk out. But a lot of the time you just get the tidbits of information or anything from there. I my goal is to always provide so much value that someone can go through my IG lives and really have a strong idea of how to get started and what mistakes to avoid at the end of the day. And that's something I kind of take pride on. Instagram is always hard. Even now, like I was talking to Mark about Instagram and always being up to date. It is so hard to be on all the time and creating content all the time, especially when you want to add as much value and quality as possible. So anybody who's doing it every day I have so much respect for because even for me it is hard.

You guys, what advice would you have to somebody who wants to, you know, sort of use Instagram to help their short term rental a business? What advice would you have?

Starting off probably so create a content plan, know what your marketing pillars are. And so for example, what's your niche and what value can you offer someone that is coming across your page? Because especially on Instagram now more and more people are coming to the platform. Of course they want their funny videos or cat videos, whatever you want it to be, but a lot of people are looking for value DIYs, how to's, you know, really how to solve any problem that they're having. And now we have to do that in more and more bite sized information. So 15 seconds of value that you can really give someone to stand out. So when you're getting started, that's what I would recommend is figuring out your niche figure, nailing down your content pillars. You know, that could be how tos, that could be what, you know, a day in the life, anything like that. So people can really get an idea of how it is to run a hosting business or any kind of just business online. And then from there strategize and start planning as much as you can. It's always hard to plan, especially when with trending, with anything that's always trending and coming. But if you have a concrete plan of what you can do, like for example, I have my IG lives every Thursday and then I try to give design tips as well as Airbnb tips and then insight on my course and day to day. So things like that, I already know what I'm specialized like going to focus on and if I can constantly nail that every month or every week, then I know that my community will be able to get as much out of it as they can.

Seeing that consistency is so important. And one, one thing I see regularly from people who produce content on a regular basis is just having that consistency like you say every week, having that Instagram live. And it doesn't happen overnight. It's just a case of doing that regularly which builds the success. And now over almost 13,000 followers who are keeping track. That must have really helped your business in just so many ways.

A hundred percent. And it, it's always up and down. There's going to be times where you're really on and there's going to be times that you're not. It's funny that you say that about consistency because I was at a speaking event last night and one of the speakers says we're all good at one thing and it's being inconsistently consistent. Are like maybe consistent. Yeah, backwards. There you go. But. And that I felt spoke to me so much, if not anyone, because you know there'll be days where you post every day of that week and then maybe you fall off or two or anything like that. But constantly show up, add value as much as you can and you are going to find your tribe or your tribe's going to find you. And that's one of the most amazing things about it. It's just like when you are trying to book guests or anything like that, how a lot of people get nervous about who they niche down to. It's the same thing when it comes to Instagram, to YouTube, any kind of social media as well as for your business. Figure out your tribe. There are so many people in this world and you just only need a fraction of that group to really understand you and your values. And that will make like that's how I. That's how I grew.

Do you use social media to attract direct bookings for your business?

I do have. So that's a good. That's a good question. Yeah. Yes, we do have a couple of properties that I manage as well as my newest one that's my own, the Peach Penticton, but basically there are a couple. The Mud House is one of the properties in Dallas that I manage as well as there was one in Atlanta, but they bought a new house. So we're in the middle of a build. It was called the Nor Loft, but I think we're changing some things. But yes, those platforms we use social media to book and drive bookings initially while also creating a brand for the property. And that is something that's so important. So as you get started and you start moving to direct bookings, you really want to ensure that you have a brand created for that specific property or your property management company to really further your reach.

And when we're talking about the brand there as well, is it important to appeal to your, you know, the preferred guests that you serve?

Definitely. So if you, for example, the property in Dallas is based off, basically it's a beautiful little guest house and everything that from the linens to, you know, the coffee to the magazines we put in the property are all black owned. It is a black owned business as well. And it's just such a beautiful story that we have and we make sure that we share that not only in our listing details, but really from the moment that the guest step into the property. And honestly, that has gone so far and I've had so many messages from guests that literally say they, we are the, that is the reason they picked to stay in this space and they're going to share it with everyone. We had a beautiful story from a guest that came that she had a daughter and one of the magazines that, that we have in the space had a lot of details on, you know, hairstyles and how to work with black hair or anything like that. And the mom just was so happy to see that magazine in there and share that with her daughter that it was just a touching story all in one. So I really think it is very important to brand to your guests that you want to stay in your home because that is who you will attract and that's really the moments that you want to experience for those guests and for yourself as a host.

I mean, if you're listening to this on the podcast or the live, just creating special moments like that sounds like a really inspirational and special moment between the mom and the daughter that you've created by this story. And you've reminded me of a book which I absolutely highly recommend to everyone in a story brand by Donald Miller and that talks about how important it is to have a story that you're, you're talking about behind the property and how, you know, the people will be attracted to that property because of the story around it. And that sounds like exactly what you've, what you've done there. You've created an experience and a story around that which has attracted the tribe, like you said, of the right kind of guest avatar. So amazing. What would you say has been the wow moment of your business journey so far? So you've been hosting for seven years now and has there been a particular moment where you can go, you know what, that, that bit there, that was a moment which you might not have realized at the time, but that was a wow moment.

Looking back, I think, you know, it's all been, it's been a wild ride. But I think honestly the moment that I really found my community online really opened my eyes up to how big the hosting community actually is. And the opportunities that this type of business really allows for are like, you can, the world's your oyster when it comes to hosting. And it opened my eyes up when I had the seven bedroom house and really was like, okay, it's not just the house I have to rent, I can do private rooms. And, and this is still a great business model. I don't even have to own the property. And this is still a great business model which then allowed me to not only basically in Vancouver, I'm not sure people who know very much, but Vancouver is one of the like most expensive real estate industries out there and it is so hard for normal people to own a house out here. Like a rundown house down the street that you wouldn't even take a second look at is two and a half million dollars to live in. So. And you know, I know a lot of properties in the UK are quite up there as well, but with that I never, I would have been working at a 9 to 5 still probably barely making enough to let alone pay my rent and save. And through short term rentals it gave me the opportunity to realize that I'm in the driver's seat of how my life is going to be and financially what that's going to look like and whatever your personal goals, your financial goals or anything like that are going to be that this business allows you to reach there. If you just want to rent out your own house or a room in your house to cover your day to day bills, great, you can do that. If you want to scale it as much as you want to, then you know that is something you can do as well. But if I never got into hosting, I would have never, I've already owned a property thanks to hosting, flipped and renovated a property. Um, you know, I've had the opportunity for where I now manage properties internationally which I never would have even thought was possible. But it's one of those things that you just say yes and you figure out the details afterwards. But as long as your whole heart is in it and you are passionate about it, like I said, the world's your oyster. This business is so amazing on what opportunities can really be there for you. And now like I said, I have my new property in Penticton which is in the interior. It's a little vacation kind of area in the Okanagan. And in January, I am looking to buy a property in Mexico.

Oh, congratulations. There's some really awesome hosts. We actually had, we've had some hosts on, in the last few days from, from Mexico. So Amanda Williams is based down in Mexico who is on the podcast and yeah, in the boostly and the hospitality Facebook groups there's, there's loads. And Mexico is really, I use the term hot. It's hot in terms of bookings obviously. It's hot in terms of weather as well, which is great. So your, your, your message, which was really clear in the book and this sticks with me, which is, you know, sort of face your fear and see how high you can fly. Because short term rental industry is just so adaptable, flexible, forgiving and like you say, if it wasn't for short term rental and to be able to do rental arbitrage or rent to rent in the uk, I wouldn't have my business. And it sounds like you wouldn't have your business. To be able to do that and to build some cash flow and then to, you know, to continue on to management is just amazing. So if you could give the listeners who are just getting started, what advice would you have for them? If they're, they've just started out, they perhaps haven't got much resources. If we go back to those early days, what, what advice would you like to give them to help them along the way?

I think honestly it would be to, of course everyone's going to say this, just do it, put yourself out there. But a lot of the time is on what is stopping us. It could be resources that are stopping us. But I, I always want people to be confident in the decisions that they're making when, because I always leave it as a worst case scenario. And this is, I'll say exactly what I tell my students as well. But if I didn't hit my personal rock bottom, would I have pushed myself to do this? I don't know. But what I would like to tell people before then is don't wait to hit your rock bottom to get there. Because life and business and your purpose or what you want to consider your purpose is all about the trials and tribulations that it takes to get there. The obstacles that you over have to get there. That like everyone says, it's about the journey and the things that I learned not only about myself, about business, about, you know, people around me, I would have never gone through any of that if I Didn't face a lot of the obstacles that came. So of course, if you are in a position where you're really thinking about getting into short term rentals, you know, take the leap, dive right in, head first. Of course, if you are unsure about a lot of things, it is always important to get educated. So find a mentor out there. There's tons of amazing ones. Pick any in the hospital, host, you know, and really start asking questions, do your research. But at the end of the day, push yourself to be there because imposter syndrome or anything like that is always going to be there and it's always going to get in the way. It's about quieting those voices because at the end of the day, the only person that's holding us back from our own success is ourselves because we're too afraid to take that leap. So definitely put yourself out there, get started. You know, search what your rules and regulations are in your area or the place that you are thinking about doing short term rentals and do it. I think the biggest thing is do it the legal way. Everyone don't try to sneak around or anything like that because anytime you cut corners in life, it usually ends up being, you know, you end up paying for it either financially or with a huge headache. So do it the right way when you get started and just dive in. You know, we were all scared. I'm sure you like, I was very scared getting started and constantly being like, oh my goodness, am I gonna be able to afford this? I'm putting all my money in it. When I first did that seven bedroom house, I put it all on credit card, praying that the money would come back. And I am one of those people that when it comes to finances, I do not want to lose any kind of money. But it really taught, helped me learn a lot about myself in that. And one of the things that I tell my students to kind of give them that confidence is if you're doing rental arbitrage and you're pitching to landlords or anything like that, the worst thing they can say is no. Okay? There's no. The only one who's putting pressure on ourselves is us. There's no timeline, there's no anything like that. So just go, get out there, practice and you know, feel confident in your services and what you're selling because you do have a great business model. The other thing is, you know, about resources. You can put together beautiful, budget friendly properties. It just takes more time to prepare and you want to be organized in the types of furniture that you are Purchasing for the property and your design and everything from there. Last, what I would say is worst case scenario. This is what I tell everyone. Worst case scenario is you rent it out long term. That is, that is the only thing. There is no potential money loss or anything like that. As long as you plan safe like for a contingency and you're smart about your spending and budgeting, then that is, you know, it's really a foolproof kind of plan if you followed all those initial steps.

I love that there's so many gems there for people to dive into. Especially the doing it the legal way. Don't get bitten in the bum. Do it the legal way. And it's so forgiven. The whole industry is so forgiven. The worst that can happen is people say no or you know, or you switch it to like long term and still cash flow. It's riskier actually to stay a lot of the time in our. In our old situations of full time jobs and stuff like that. So I can completely relate to you there, Tatiana. So as we come towards a close on these episodes, what we like to do is do a few quick fire questions. And these can be fun answers. They can be serious answers. So where's the place that you would recommend? Everybody listening needs to go and visit and check out.

Of any of my listings or just any in the world.

More. More sort of places you visited and places like that. So countries or. Or certain homes that you can think where you just go, wow, that was amazing.

I would definitely say so two of my favorites. Of course I'm gonna say Tulum, Mexico because it is largely up and coming. They are building on every block. So I definitely think if you're interested in hosting or just checking out the area going to Tulum and then my other favorite place in the whole world is Barcelona in Spain. Spain. And that is one of the things that is a goal to have a property over there. But I would definitely recommend checking out that because it's not only a beautiful city, just the architecture and the inspiration that you can get staying in some of their boutique hostels is what really fueled me to where I am today and my design models.

It's beautiful. Barcelona is actually the book direct show is. Is happening there this week. So you know, there's. There's a lot of people across there for. For that. So love that answer. What is the book that you'd recommend everybody read?

Can I. Can I. Are we allowed to do Shameless songs?

Yeah, we can't. Apart from the obvious. And we'll hold it up Just for the camera, for people to see. But apart from the obvious, is there any other books that you really go. It can be nonfiction or fiction, whatever you like.

Well, I think. Oh, that's a good thing. Now I got to look at my library here. Of course you want to read, especially if in the industry, you want to read Mark's book, the book Direct Playbook. That was a good one. I actually have.

There we go. We'll get another one. Yeah. Awesome. Mark will like this.

Yes. The other. You know, I think half the battle in this industry is really the self confidence and getting yourself there. So it really depends on any kind of self help book or anything like that to really help you work through those things. One of my favorite books of all time that I actually send to my students is Light is the New Black. It's a bit more spiritual, but it really helps you kind of do the work and it puts it in a perspective that really kind of makes things, makes you realize that you, you know, I am the master of my destiny here. And how I want my life to be and how I want my life to look is totally up to me and I have that power. So I think anything that will really get you motivated, work through that. Anything on the inside will help you really change what the outside is going to be brilliant.

I, I think that'd be a great way to draw it to a close. That is. Yeah, it's really, really good fun. And if people listening in, want to get in touch or want to follow you, what's the best way to, to do so?

On my Instagram, it's Tatiana TT and you can shoot me a message there or I have tons of links in my bio to learn more about my services, my course course, as well as tons of done for you templates on my Etsy shop, which is under thanks for booking.

Thank you so much, Tatiana. And for anybody listening, if you don't do so already, make sure you're in the communities for, for Boostly, which is hospitable, Hospitable hosts. It's on My Mind, which is the hospitality community on Facebook. And of course, if you've got any questions around the book, Direct Movement, make sure you're following Mark. And yeah, we look forward to sort of having somebody else on the behind the Host podcast. We've learned a lot today and I feel we've really got to know your business. So thanks again for joining us. Any last words? As just before we before honestly, it's.

Been an honor on this podcast. I am so excited for you know, everyone in this industry and if you are listening, today's the day you need to get started.

Love it. Well, take care for now. See you again.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for checking out today's podcast episode. Now, before you head and go anywhere else, before you click to the next episode, before you do that, do me one big favor and go check out boostly.co.uk trust IPRAC are the sponsors of all of the Boostly content and the reason why I work with them and the reason why we spread the message of IPRAC is that when a host of or a company is looking to get more into direct bookings, the main question they have is around trust, as in will a guest trust that I am a true and real business? Well, IPRAC take care of all of that and they've got a special offer that is only available to Boostly people. But to do that you need to go to Boostly which is B o o s t l y.co.uk trust you can find out all the information there. You can book in a demo, book in a call and and then you will get your super special offer that is only available to Boostly peoples. Thank you again for tuning in. Do go check out iprac. We'll be back again very shortly with another podcast episode, but until then, we'll see you all very soon. Take care.