Mastering Scale: Insights from an Expert in Managing 300 Units

Hey, welcome to the Boostly Podcast. This is the podcast that gives hosts the tools, the tactics, the training, most importantly, the confidence so you can go out there and get yourself direct bookings. My name is Liam Carolan and today we're going behind the host and this is going to be awesome because we're going to hear this person's story, how they scale to 300 units, their ups, their downs, and all the things that you as a host can learn from and transfer their experience and the things they've done right, the mistakes, into your hospitality business. So I'm really excited to do this. So we've got sayed from syedbnb.com you can go and check out his, his webpage and see what's on there, but I'm not going to take anything else away from him. I'm going to throw the mic open and say, welcome along, Liam.

I'm happy to be here. Looking forward to talking to you. I'll kick it off by just introducing myself. I'm Syed and I have 300 units under management. I've been in business for seven years now and I have 75 resources in my business and there's been a lot of ups and downs in my business. And I'm going to share my story on how I got started and how I got to where I'm at today. I'm looking forward to it.

Awesome. Awesome. I'm looking forward to diving in just before we go into that. Whereabouts in the world are you?

I'm located in the Midwest in the United States, in Chicago, my home bases.

Awesome. So from over here in the uk, we love to reach out all over the world and it's great to have someone from the Midwest in the usa. So take it away. Tell me your story. How did you get started? And I'm, I'm really excited to share with the audience the, you know, how you got up to that many units. But take us all the way back to the start first. Sure.

So I initially got started in 2017 is I was obsessed with bigger podcasts, bigger pockets at the time and I would listen to all the podcasts in bigger pockets and it would talk about getting out of the rat race. And I listened to the E book for Rich dad, Poor dad, and I was like, super motivated and I was like, hey, I want to replace my 9 to 5 income. I want to get out of the rat race. I want to do something for myself. So the way I thought I could make this happen is, you know, purchasing multifamily properties. So I said you know, maybe in 10, 15 years time, I could make enough income to not have to work. You know, instead of retiring in 30 years, maybe I could retire in 10 years. So after doing a lot of research, I was ready to, you know, take action. And I ended up researching that, hey, I could house hack a property, live in one of the units and rent out the other ones. So I did a loan money down, FHA financing. I got a four unit plus basement. I lived in the basement for a year. And then now it was time to move out. And it was furnished, it was nice, it was nicely done. And I listened to another podcast and this guy was killing it on Airbnb. So I was like, okay, you know, it's ready to go. Why not just, you know, put it on, let's see what happens. So I put it on in February. It was the first month, you know, I. I broke. I made broke even on my rents. Like what I was expecting for rent is what I made in my first month. But I knew it was February and it's like, you know, winter slow season. I'm like, I'm like, okay, let's see what happens in spring break and all that. So coming March, I ended up making two times rent. And I was like, whoa, this is like something else. Like, this is amazing. And then come April, May, it ended up being three times rent. And then I was like, like, this is something that, like, this is a once in a lifetime thing. I want to have more. How can I get more? So at the same time, it was like up for renewal for tenants in my building. And they, some of them moved out. So I put their units on Airbnb and every single unit that I put on Airbnb, it was making three times rent in the summer. So I was like, okay, this is like a golden opportunity. I need to leave my job. I need to accelerate what My plan was 10, 15 years to now. It's like three, four months, you know, and I need to do this full time now. So I ended up going to my manager at work and I told her, like, listen, like, I'll give you my, like one month notice. I'll give you six weeks. Like, you know, you could replace my job and I want to try this out full time. And at the time, you know, like, it was like my friends and family and wife and everybody said I was like, crazy. You know, like, how can you like, take such drastic move without knowing anything? You know, you have a nice, stable job. I was in corporate finance. I was, you know, getting promoted and I really liked my job until I got into my side business, you know, Then as it was, I was getting, like, anxious being at work. I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. Like, it happened so fast. But I believed in myself and I said, okay, you know, I. I want this and I want to take action. And at the end of the day, if it fails, I could just go back and, you know, go back to getting a job. Like, that doesn't change, right? I don't lose my degree. I don't lose my job experience. I could go back. So finally, in 2017 is when I gave my notice. They ended up asking me to stay on board part time. And I was like, okay, you know, if I keep my benefits, like, sure. And at the same time, I was not even, like, focused on it. I was like, just working on my business. And then finally, like, Jan one comes right before Christmas holiday. They're like, okay, we don't need you anymore. And I'm like, okay, fine. You know, and then it got real serious. So I don't. I was really nervous, you know, don't get me wrong, I wasn't, like, super confident. I was nervous. But I'm like, all right, now it's time. And, you know, it was January 1st, 2018. I started my, you know, Airbnb management business. Basically a typical management business that would split like a 80, 20, 75, 25 split with the owners and plus the cleaning fee. So I launched my website, I spent some money on SEO. I ended up ranking, like, number one and number two, like, depending on the day for my market. And all these leads started coming in. And then I started going to all these sales pitches, and I was closing on deals, and I'm like, whoa. Like, this is, like, amazing. This is great. So I went from, like, you know, five of my own units to 10 units, like, very fast. And I said, okay, you know, I'm already making more money than I was at my job. Like, I'm like, I'm a genius right now, you know, So I felt really good. And then I went and did this one pitch to this one owner who had maybe 20 units. And the reason why I reached out to them is because I saw how bad the reviews were on Airbnb, and I'm like, hey, I could come in and fix it. And then after, like, months longs of proposals and things that I would do to their units, they finally said yes. And then they gave me, like, the contract for those units, and I was onboarding them, trying to fix things. Fixing their pricing. Um, but unfortunately, they were not happy with my service. So, you know, it took a big toll on me because I spent so much time onboarding these units for, like, three, four months. And then all of a sudden, like, three weeks in, they're like, no, we're not doing this anymore. So. And at the same time, the other clients that I onboarded were, you know, not the best clients either. So, you know, it was like, oh, wait, like, I kind of don't like this business model. Like, what. What do I get myself into? Like, all of a sudden, you know, I3X my business. Then I had to subtract, you know, like, you know, a big decrease. Like, what's going on? Like, what did I get myself into? So I. But I didn't stop. You know, I went back to the drawing board. I went to this one random networking event, and there was an individual in this group that I was talking in, and, like, we're looking for people to do Airbnb in our buildings. And that was, like, the most shocking thing, like, anybody ever would say. Like, I never heard of anybody say that. And I was like, okay, like, can I get your card? She's like, well, like, here. Here's a card for. Here's a number for the property manager. You could reach out to them. So I'm like, okay, you know, I'll reach out. You know, and then I start reaching out, and they start ignoring my phone call. You know, they're like, we're not interested. Call back in a month. And then I call back in a month and call back in two weeks. Call back next week. And I just kept on calling, you know, I didn't care. I. I had no shame, you know? Finally, he's like. He's like, okay, just maybe come in and talk to me in person. Maybe show me a proposal in person. So I started coming into their office, and he kind of got fed up with me, and he's like, listen, just. I'm gonna put you in the room with the owner.

You could.

You could decide. He could decide then and there if he wants to do this. If not, you guys, you know, that's it. So they put me in a room. The owner walks in like this. This owner has a thousand units, and he's like a big opera, big landlord in my market, right? Thousand units. He had maybe a hundred units vacant at a time. And he comes in super alpha. He just, like, tears me apart. He's like, listen, I'm not doing this business. I'm not getting in the furniture Business. I'm not doing Airbnb. I know one business, and that's all I'm going to do. Thank you for coming, but we're not interested. So, like, one last ditch effort. Like, it just came to my mind. I'm like, listen, how about I just rent two of your units? You have about a hundred units vacant right now. I could just rent two units. I'll pay you rent, I'll furnish it and allow me to run my business, but can you give me two months free? And he's like, listen, if you don't cause me problems and you pay rent on time, go ahead, take these two units. So that was, like, the start of the rental arbitrage business. And this was even before, like, the term rental arbitrage existed, right? This is at the same time, like, Sonder was launching their business in 2008, 2018. And then this is, like, during that time. So I'm like, okay. And I got those two units and I furnished it. And then within those two months of me furnishing it, my startup costs came back to me, you know, because I got the two months free upfront. So then I ended up going back to him. I'm like, hey, can I have two more units? And then he's like, yeah, you've been doing good, you know, no complaints. And you've been paying rent. So, like, sure, take these two units. So again, I got two months free, and then I would recoup my startup cost again. And then I went back to him, can I have these four units? And then he's like, yeah, sure. And then I came back to him, can I have these five units? And then ended up scaling up to 35 units with them, like, very quickly.

That's amazing.

And just to.

Just to jump in, because there's so many lessons. I mean, it feels like a roller coaster already is, as to the kind of, oh, my God, it's going on and now it's going right. You know, like, I can. I can get the idea that you've gone on some ups and downs there. But just to break it down for. For those of you who are listening, I mean, some of the things that you've done right from the very beginning was, first of all, listen to the right podcasts. You know, there's people listening to this right now, you know, listening to the right people, people who have done it before, people who know how to do property in general. And although we're all about direct bookings and hospitality, many of our listeners start off, like yourself, looking at the property, sort of podcasts and property books and property people. But you mentioned that you, you lived in your first property. Did you have to live it in it for a year? Did you mention beforehand?

Yes, yes. So because it was low money down, it was like a $500,000 purchase and I put 5% down and you have to live in the property for a year for primary residence purposes to get that loan. But then after the year you're allowed to leave and you can rent it out to a long term tenant.

I mean, what I love about that is you've, you know, you've started with, with a purchase there and then you've got more as, as time has gone on and that start of the management business. So many people at the moment are looking to get into management. But you mentioned that some of the heartbreak of putting all that work in and the upside of management, right, is you've got a percentage coming in without having to put in any down payments, without having to do any of the furniture in that. But not many people talk about that downside and that is that if you take on the wrong few clients, and as a manager myself, I know that you take on some nightmare clients, they take up all your time and you're only getting a small percentage. And then if they do leave or move on anyway, it can be a nightmare. So it's good for people to see the, the other side of that coin as such.

People talk about that 80, 20 rule, right? And that happens with the property management business where it's like 20% of your clients end up taking like 80% of your time, right? And those are the ones that you got to try to get rid of. And then the 80% of the clients that are the good clients you want to keep, and they're only taking up 20% of your time. So you got to find the right clients when you're working in the management business.

Oh, definitely. And the other two lessons from, from your story so far, and I know there's, there's lots more to dive into, is that going to these networking events, I mean, out of everybody in that room, you bumped into the one guy who really is giving you an entire business. It only takes that one little moment of synergy where you get the opportunity. And then the second part I took from that is you're pretty persistent, you didn't give up. Whereas so many people would have just went, you know, I've tried it once. They said, no, I hate rejection, I'm not going to try again. So by, by keep Going back and getting in front of that owner. And then even when you got in front of that owner, he still said no. But you figured out, well, what was his objection and how do I solve his objection? And it's. It's what I'd call the foot in the door method, where you've got these two properties.

Just.

It's a taster right before he gets the full. Full meal, which is amazing. So, yeah, what. What happened from there? So you got 35 units?

Yeah, so I had 35 units. Things were amazing. You know, I was so happy that I, you know, started off this business, and I'm, you know, making cash flow, I'm making profit. I'm able to grow and scale the business without outside funding. Because my little trick that I've been doing was, like, that two months free upfront. So I thought, like, okay, like, this is pretty good. I'm at, like, 45 units now. Like, what's next? You know? So ended up being where some of the deals that I did with this landlord was not in contract because we were adding some units so fast. Like, initially, we did leases and all that, and all of a sudden, we're not doing contracts, and we're like, okay, we'll figure out the contract on the back end. We're not. We can't do the standard lease anymore. We need a commercial lease, and we need to have these terms. I'm like, okay, that's fine. We can figure that out. But I just wanted units, right? So I'm like, all right, just give me units. I'll figure it out later.

He's just chucking keys, keys your way.

And you're like, yeah, you know, have two months free up front is okay, you know, whatever. My money comes back anyway fast, you know, but it's opportunity. So I ended up getting 35 units with them. And then finally, like, the winter season started coming up, and I'm forecasting bunch of loss, and I'm. I don't have a contract. And I'm like, wait, what if this landlord ends up saying something like, okay, you know, I want these units back now. And after the winter. And I just did this all for no reason. So I started getting scared. So I'm like, okay, listen, like, landlord, you have to. Let's do a contract now. And that was probably not a good thing to do a contract after you have the units. There was a lot of, like, negotiation, and it put, like, not a good, like, relationship between the landlord and I. And he stopped talking to me. You know, we did the Contract. But he stopped talking to me. So I'm like, okay, you know, I need to branch out. Like, let's find other landlords just like him that have thousands of units. And let me name drop now let me say, like, hey, I do business with this guy who is one of the biggest ones. Can I do business with you? He's your friend, he's your colleague. I pay him rent. There's no problems. So I started doing that pitch, and instead of like six months to finally get approval, and now it's like a month to get approval, you know, from a landlord. Because I have a reputation now, and I have some. I. I do business with somebody that they know. So the next landlord, I did the same thing, and I asked for two units, and then four units, 10, 15, 20, 30, you know, with this landlord. And then I started going to the next landlord and said the same thing. I do business with landlord A and I do business with landlord B. Can I do it with you? And the pitch just kept on getting easier and easier, you know, and depending on the time of the year, because busy season for landlords are the summer and then slow seasons of winter. So they're motivated at different times. So I would go to them at their, like, October, when there's going to be like, vacant for the next couple months, and they would start giving me units, and I started scaling up my portfolio. You know, the first 2018 is, you know, when I had that 4050 units, I had like $1.2 million worth of revenue, $200,000 profit. And then in 2020, I scaled up some more, ended up having $3.2 million of revenue and maybe like $500,000 of profit. Sorry, 2019. That was 2019. And then 2020, that, that winter, right before March, I said, okay, like wintertime, let's scale up units. At the same time, I'm getting losses, and at the same time I'm adding units. But I'm. Now I'm going for outside funding. I'm opening up like 10, 15 credit cards. They just kept on approving me for credit cards. I started taking some private loans out from my friends and family. So I'm like, at 200, $300,000 of debt from, like, the. From my. My loans I took out, and then another $200,000 loss from the big actual business. And I scale up maybe 60 units during the winter, and I'm like, okay, you know, March 15th to spring break. I have no money right now, but I'm back in business. I'm gonna start Making money again. And then like, boom, Like, Covid comes, right? Lights. Yeah. Flight stop. Airbnb is refunding. Nobody knows what's going on with travel. And now I have a $500,000 rent payment coming up in a couple of weeks. And I had like $5,000 to my name, so I was like, like, whoa. Like, this is like, I'm done. This is. There's no coming back from this. You know, it's like the band aid got ripped off so fast. So it was like something that I didn't even were able to react right. It just happened. So.

Yeah. What was that moment, though? Like? Because, I mean, I know that. You know, the funny thing is now I speak to people and there's people who started their business post Covid, and I'm like, you don't know what it was like, man. You weren't there, like, as in there. Because Covid is one of those things which just. It just completely wiped the floor with. It's grounded us. You know, Airbnb closed their doors. All sorts of of issues as we frequently we talk about at Boostly. But in that moment where it happened, what were the options? You know, what. What was going? How did you feel? I guess in that moment.

Yeah. So at the moment, I talked to my colleagues. Like, I created my own, like, little professional group on Facebook at the time. There was like, a bunch of guys doing, like, these, like, masterminds that would connect people with, like, skilled operators and it would be a buy in. And I'm like, wait, why do I need to pay to talk to people in my business? So I created my own Facebook group with some of the players that, you know, are still around today and some aren't. But I started talking to them. I'm like, okay, well, what are the repercussions? What are you thinking? What are you doing with your business? And we started having discussions, we started having meetings. We never met before. Like, we started having phone calls. And then there were people that were very bearish on what was going to happen. They're like, you know, this might be it. You know, if you can get out of your leases, it's time to start talking to your landlords and seeing what you could do. So. And then they would give examples of this land, this operator, getting rid of this money, leases. So I was like, okay, you know, I have this $500,000 rent coming up. So, like, I felt like my business was done just like how everyone else felt. There was no way coming back from it. But I'm like, okay, Let me make a list. And in this list, I wrote down 10 things that I needed to happen to, you know, continue my business. If I hit these 10 things, maybe I could survive. I'm not sure. Maybe, you know, and, you know, one thing was I need to get an injection of cash. Where can I get cash from? At the same time, they started coming out with that EIDL loan for $150,000, which was huge for me. You know, I took that 150 and I paid off my private loans to my friends and family. I didn't want that on my conscious. Like I took that much money and didn't give it back. Then there was ppp, but unfortunately for ppp, there was. I had all contractors because all my cleaners were contractors and not W2 employees. So I didn't get that much money, but like 30,000. It helped. You know, I paid down some credit card, I refinanced my building. I had a building that I purchased and I had $120,000 I was able to pull out of it. So I took that 120,000 and paid on debt, credit card debt. So I didn't have this crazy 25% interest, you know, that was from the injection of cash. That was what I needed. So that happened next.

How many units were you on at the time at this stage where this was all, all tumbling down?

180 units at that time. So the next thing is like, okay, I got to talk to landlords. So I had about 10 landlords, 180 units, and I gave them three options. Option one is, let's get on a revenue share. Let's do 50, 50 split, 60, 40, whatever you guys want to do. Back to the management type of agreement. And option two is allow me to pick up my stuff or and leave and terminate the lease or keep my stuff and I'll and just terminate the lease, but I'm not going to be able to pay you. And option three, I was like, you know, if I stay in the unit, I'm not paying. You could sue me, you could bankrupt me and you can do what you want. And out of those like 180 units, three of the landlords that had like 50 of those units ended up saying like, listen, we're not covet charity. We're going to bankrupt you until you have nothing. You better pay us maybe 30, 40, 50 units ended up saying that just pick up your stuff, we don't want to touch you, you know, just get out of our units. And then the most important was there's two landlords that had. I had 90 units with that ended up saying that, okay, let's get on this revenue share. Let's see if we could survive this. We're partners in this versus, like adversaries. Like, you pay me, I collect. It was like, you know, you were providing value. If you're going down, I'll take a little hit. But let's stay in business and let's figure it out. And if it doesn't work out, you just pick up your stuff. And eventually those landlords that said that they wanted to sue me until I had nothing ended up realizing how bad Covid was going to be to the world and the economy. They ended up settling with me, like, you know, two months rent or keeping their furniture or whatever the case is, like, they ended up settling with me. So now all of a sudden, I ended up removing 90 units from the market from my supply. And then Now I have 90 units on revenue share. So now I'm in business still, you know, and just jumping on in there. How.

How did you feel? So when you're talking to these landlords, I mean, there's some tough conversations, right, that you're having to have all day, every day at that stage. Like, I guess, where did you pull the resilience from? To. To do that?

Yeah. So it was just in me. Like, I. My thing is, like, if something is going bad, I just gotta go right in front of that person and tell them, like, hey, I see something bad happening, let's take action. And, you know, it caught some landlords off guard too. Like when I. I was starting to walk in people's offices again without meetings, without calling, without anything, and I'm. And I'm like, listen, this is a big problem. Like, I want to let you know, these 30 units that I have with you, I'm not going to be able to pay in a couple of weeks. What do you want to do? And then like, the landlord, one landlord made a comment like, you know, in all years of doing business is 25 years of doing business. I've never had somebody walk in my office like this and tell me that they're not going to be able to do something. They're like, this is a problem. But, you know, it's good that you came to me, you know, to tell me, looking at people in the eye.

And being able to must go some way to help. Right?

And I think that approach was the best approach. I started just walking people's offices and telling them, like, and they appreciated the transparency I provided them like certain type of like scenarios and situations. If we go through a revenue share, how much expense do I need to continue my business to pay my people? Because I'm like, all I need is be able to pay my people and pay my rent for my house, you know, and let's, I'll give you everything else. Like, I don't, I'm not doing this to like make money. I'm now doing this to survive. And I told them, like, listen, and like, if it doesn't work out at any given time, one month, two weeks in, three weeks in you, and if you could rent it out yourself, go rent it out yourself. You know, I was giving them options. Like, I'm not, I'm not this person that is just going to ignore you and not pay you and then hold onto your unit. Because I think that was the worst thing a landlord can ever experience is that. And they just don't want somebody to do something like malice against them, you know. So, you know, that's one thing about me is like, I'm just able to, like, I'm able to just approach people about problems. That's just like my personality, you know, I was never scared to do that. And if anything, I feel like they appreciate that when I'm able to like tell them about the future, then that, that's why they like kept me along because I would continuously talk to them about the two month outlook, the three month outlook, the next six months outlook, and then I would reflect back. I'm like, okay, this, this is actually what I predicted and this is what happened. I was right about this, I was wrong about that. Let's see what happens in the next two months. You know, so like they, they followed along the story, they believed in the story, and I think that's what they appreciated. But don't get me wrong, it was tough because like some landlords were like, like, you know, they didn't want to hear me. You know, they didn't answer the phone call until like I, you know, I started getting lawyers involved and having my lawyer reach out to like, like each landlord had their own style, right?

Sometimes it's not even about what you say, and this is, sorry, it's not about how you're saying it. You know, you're doing it in the right way. But it's just the information they're hearing, they're panicking themselves. So, you know, that might be part of it, but there's something which I'm taking inspiration from. And hopefully you listening to this on the podcast are as well, that is that having good communication that, I mean, there's two examples of it, first of all is when you're getting these units, you're using a technique I call borrowed credibility. Is I work with this person and they trust me, so therefore you should trust me too. It's like borrowed credibility from that. And then when it comes down to good communication at the other end, when things aren't going right, it's actually going, look, I can see this is going to happen in two months. I'm telling you now because I want you to know, not when it, you know, there's so many other people who would just go quiet, disappear, you know, like, and, and two months later it's in a much worse situation. So no credit ones do. It's really good to hear. If you're struggling on how to get direct bookings and overwhelmed on where to start, then I recommend you go and book in a call with Boostly and our team right now. We can walk you through exactly what we're offering, how we can help you and give you a portfolio of websites that we have worked with that are matching not only your niche, but could be in your location as well. Boostly has helped over 2000 hospitality businesses.

All over the world increase their direct bookings.

And if you are interested, then all you need to do is go to Boostly. B o o s tly.co.uk call and book in an appointment with one of our sales team. What happened next?

Yeah, so all of a sudden I reduced my units from 180 to 90, but now I'm clear from all the, the bad landlords I was with, you know, you call them bad, but I see their point of view, you know, but I settled with them. So now all of a sudden I have these 90 units and demand is actually not bad, you know, for Airbnb and short term rentals. They were considered cleaner than hotels during COVID The hotels have a revolving door of international people, like people traveling from this and there's Covid everywhere. Everyone's going to get sick. But in an Airbnb, when you're in an apartment or a townhome or whatever, you know, you don't have neighbors moving in and out, you know, everyone's at home. So in those 90 units that I had, I was bringing in money and I wasn't making rent, but it was getting close to rent, you know, maybe 70% of rent or maybe 65 and some months. But my landlords were okay with it because they had the out, you know, just in Case they ever told me they want out, that they could rent it out, go ahead, take it or. And I was not like deadbeats, not paying them. I was updating them exactly how things were coming in and how I see things coming in. And this is what I think you're gonna make this next month. And so they really liked that. Right. And then things started moving along in the pandemic and my landlords were okay, I was making, I was paying my employees, I was taking some money home too, because I'm on a revenue share. I no longer have the rent expense that I had and the big risk in my business. So like that's one thing about arbitrage. Like it's like a huge risk business, right. You know, once the demand goes away, like you're out of business versus like a management type business where you can, like, you know, you don't have any risk, you're just taking a percentage, right. So you just run your business that way.

We've arbitrage. The numbers get really big, really quick, don't they? But so does the outgoings as well. And like you say, it's just, just keeping that going. But yeah, I love the fact that just to scale to, you know, 180 units in itself with you said only 10, 10 land. So we're not talking, you are not talking a huge number of landlords. And again, it's another lesson is that actually you get the right people, then you don't need to be doing it so many times. People are talking to so many individual people. Can you imagine if you had 180 individual units? It would have been mission impossible. I'm sure we wouldn't be having this conversation now. Yeah.

So, okay, yeah, so I'm at 90 units, business is going good. And an opportunity fell on my lap. There was a bankruptcy with a big national company that was VC backed. They had thousand of thousand units all around the country. The name of the company was Stay Alfred. And in the beginning of the pandemic is when they kind of went bankrupt. And I had a colleague that approached me with the opportunity of buying some of their furniture. And at the time I always thought like, I can't do nothing with this furniture. I already have so much furniture of my own self. Like, what am I gonna do with this? Um, I, I can't even offer them more than like $200 per unit, you know, for their furniture. And stay alert, probably spent like 10,000, $15,000 per unit. And I said $200, like is what I could offer. And Then he's like, offer that, you know, see what happens. So I made an email offer. I'm like, hey, you know, I'll pay $200 per unit. And then like, three, four, five months, six months into the pandemic, they. I ended up getting a response saying that, hey, we accept your offer. How many units do you want? And now it came to a point where I'm. Now I'm still in business, you know, on 90 units. And I'm like, okay. Like, I'm interested in these, like, 20 apartments. They're like, okay, you could pick it up from Ohio. So I'm like, okay, you know, how do I pick it up? Like, now I need movers. Now I need trucks. Now I need warehousing. Now I need all this. So they're like, well, we need it out by Wednesday. You know, it was a Friday when they, when they accepted my offer. And then so, like, that weekend is when I started spending time on Google. How do I find movers? How do I get a truck from Ohio to Chicago? How do I get a warehouse? And I started figuring things out. You know, there was a thing called Uber Freight that is like basically for Uber for a car is an Uber for a truck, you know. And then I started going on Facebook groups for, like, moving, like, individuals in that, in those local markets. Like, hey, I need X amount of movers here. Can somebody come? And then I needed a warehouse. So I started reaching out to my landlords, hey, do you have any opportunities for anywhere? And then they connect me with another person. Another person. And then they're like, yeah, we have this one. You could have it for a couple months until we figure out what we want to do with it. I'm like, okay, perfect. So, like, it was that weekend when I started my own, like, logistics, warehousing and moving business. You know, suddenly in.

In logistics, like you say, like, I love how resourceful it is that you've reached out to all the different places and you're learning along the way. So what with all this furniture, though? Because you must have had, like, stacks of furniture.

Yes, I did. I had in my buildings that I own, in my garages that I had in family members garages. I started taking all this furniture from, like, you know, 180 to 90. I had a bunch of furniture everywhere. You know, I had to do something about it. If anything, I was going to like, sell it or junk it or whatever I could do, you know. And then now I'm getting more. And then at the same time, I started reaching out to those landlords that I was doing revenue share with. And I was like, listen, do you have any appetite for me to take on more units in your buildings with the same model that we have with revenue share? I love to add like, you know, more units. And they're like, yeah, you know, you're. I'd rather they were hurting at the same time, not getting long term tenants. People didn't want to move. Like, yeah, we could give you these units. So I started getting furniture from State Alfred, and I started connecting it to more units that the landlords were giving me. And. But now all of a sudden I don't have any big startup costs anymore and I don't have like, I don't have the liability of rent. So I'm like, this is like unlimited supply now. Like, I could just take one and put in another. So I started going back to State Alfred. I'm like, can I have 20 more? They're like, okay, go to Atlanta. I'm like, all right, can I have 30 more? They're like, go to Dallas. Can I have these 15? They're like, all right, go to Minnesota. And then they're like, do you want this 150 in Nashville? I'm like, well, no, I can't. There's no way. I already have four warehouses. Like, I. There's never. I'm not going to be able to get this like Nashville building, which now I regret so much not being able to figure that out because, you know, I started using all this furniture and now I don't have any more of that. Now I'm back to buying furniture again.

So mad there as well after Covid, didn't it? Nashville especially, like, you know, sort of the market went really, really big there.

But yeah, yeah.

So every time you took on these units, actually you're probably saving money from having to store furniture, it sounds like, as well, because every time they took on a unit, not only.

Oh, I know, yeah, there was like taking away from like my where. So it was like it was a.

Double win, wasn't it?

Yeah. So it's like, okay, I had four warehouses. If I could get these 10 units, I don't have to pay rent for this warehouse. And then, so it was. And then it was just like match made in heaven. I never had seen such a, like perfect like storm come about, you know, like, it was just so nice. I was getting furniture for cheap, but they were kept on getting expensive, like more expensive as time went on because, like, I would offer every month or so. And then there were Other people offering at the same time. So my bid started going up to $500 per unit. It was the last one. But at the end of the day, I ended up getting 150 apartments worth of furniture. I probably spent $50,000 to buy it. And I probably my all in cost was probably another a hundred thousand dollars of moving, warehousing and all those logistics.

Right.

So $150,000 all in and probably 1 million to $1.5 million worth of furniture is what I got.

That reminds me of two things from one, from one of mentors of mine, Rob Moore, who says that, you know, there's more millionaires made during downturns than anyone else for the people who can solve the problem. But also guy called Daniel Priestley who was talking at the. You remind me of what he was talking about during COVID where he said, look, what we're about to see is some of these big companies start to focus on their core business, which might be their big rock and all of the little pebbles, which would be huge for us as independent entrepreneurs. They're going to start to get rid of and chuck out. And that sounds, that's exactly what they were doing with all that, that furniture. Like obviously they had invested like you say, 10,000, $15,000. They just needed gone so they could focus on their, their main business or focus on other things. So yeah, that's, that's amazing.

Yeah. So like 2020 is like I went from 180 to 90. Now I'm scaling back up because of the stay Alfred opportunity. And another opportunity of Domio came about. And because I was so happy with the stay offer situation, I bought, I made a purchase with some Domio stuff as well. They went bankrupt, another big company. And I bought maybe 50 apartments worth of their furniture. And this was like sight unseen. I just. Because I was like, I was thinking gambles and I was hitting on my gambles, right? So I'm like, okay, I have more money to gamble with now and if it goes bad, I already hit a lot. So I'm like, why not? So I bought some adomio stuff, but now I'm adding units. You know, I'm scaling back up, like all the units that I'm, that I lost, I'm starting to add back up and I'm on revenue share. Things are going really good. I'm actually making a profit during COVID And then, you know, 2021 comes up and my slow season was bad, but I'm on revenue share still. I'm not losing, you know, I'm breaking even, if anything, which I would normally lose a lot of money during my slow season, but revenue share fix that. My landlords came to me and said, listen, like, we cannot do this revenue share model anymore. We got to go back to the lease. If you can't pay the lease, you got to leave. And then I'm like, okay. So I started paying the lease again in March. And then one thing that happened was in 2021, in my market, because of COVID the supply decreased maybe like 50% because people out of business regulations changed during that time too, so it was hard to get licensing, so the supply decreased. And then all of a sudden in 2021, people wanted to start going out again. Um, and my summer, because of the decrease of supply, my summer of 2021 was a great summer. You know, I had the most amount of units that I ever had. You know, I'm Back to like 200 units now. And this was like a record year. Like that summer I was making like revenues of like one point something million dollars a month in the summer, you know, and then my profit was like 500,000. And at the same time, in, in 2021, I didn't have to pay for my slow season losses because I was a revenue sharer. So this, this was the best year I ever had in my business, you know? Yeah, yeah, I had, I had like $7.5 million worth of revenue and then I made like a $1.5 million net income profit on that year. So 2022 is coming now. I saw my slow season. I lost money in the beginning of 2022, but still my supply hasn't caught up in my market. And I knew there was going to be pent up demand because now mask mandates are going away and it's going to be just like a once in a lifetime year. And now all of a sudden in 2022, I have pent up demand in the summer. I'm making millions of dollars a month and I'm making crazy net income profit. I ended the year at $10.7 million worth of revenue in 2022. But this time I had a $1 million profit. So it was down $500,000 from the previous year. The reason why was the tail end of 2022, my November and December, I ended up taking a $700,000 loss in two months. So with the pent up demand in the summer, there was fatigue in the winter. So normally I would break even in like November and December, maybe like small loss, but all of a sudden I had these crazy losses because of that fatigue of pent up demand fatigue. So instead of making a $1.7 million net income, I ended up making just a million dollars net income. But those losses continued in the beginning of the year. My winter in 2023 was so bad, I started taking a $400,000 loss in January and I started taking a $350,000 loss in February. And all my reserves that I had from the previous year ended up going away. And now I'm back to doing the same thing I did in the past where I started putting money back on credit cards, I started paying rent five days late, I started taking my utilities off auto payment and I was negative for towards like the beginning of spring, you know, and I was like, okay, now I need to get back in this like summer 2023, I need to start making money again so I could be cash flow positive. So it took me until June to be cash flow positive again because of the downturn that I had this winter. And then all of a sudden in 2023 I thought the pent up demand would continuously be the same as the previous years. But the pent up demand has gone and all of a sudden supply is catching back up. Demand is actually down in my markets year over year and now all of a sudden I'm making more money that I from a revenue perspective. And I have most units I ever had with 300. But now I am not making anywhere of the net income I was making in the previous years.

Right.

So that was like, you know, it took a lot of confidence out of me, you know, a lot of confidence out of my growth because I was like, well I don't want to get into this same situation next, next winter coming up now, you know, I don't want to start scaling to 400 units. And there's another mistake I did was when I had the 300 units back in 2022, I'm like, okay, I had this target of 400 units, $17 million worth of revenue. I'm going to make 2 point something million dollars of profit. I'm going to make my dream organization, I'm going to hire out my dream organization of my virtual assistants, my on site staff. I'm going to have supervisors to the cleaners and I'm going to have runners and I'm going to have laundry staff and I'm going to have like on I was just having a two handyman and I'm like one person screening. Like I was going, I was having like so many different because I made my dream organization because I'm like, I could afford it, but all of a sudden I'm not hitting my numbers anymore. And my expense run rate is like way high now. And all of a sudden I'm not getting the, the demand growth. And all of a sudden I'm not getting the supply increase to 400 units. I'm actually losing units now. I'm getting into deals with landlords that are saying, like, we don't want you in our buildings anymore. Our long term demand is there. So, you know, I went from 310 to now 250, and I'm creeping back up. I just hit another deal for like 20 units down, back to 300, right? But my staff, I'm built to staff up for like 400, 500 units. So like this last month I had to take like a, like a cut to my staff. Like, I had to reduce my virtual assistant staff out in the Philippines. I had 50 resources, now I have 35. I probably laid off like six US contractors, like, clean, like some runners and some handymen. So, you know, it's been an up and down, like, story, you know, like, it's been like, yeah, so I know I said a lot, right?

No, hey, I feel I was there living it with you. And I've got to be honest, I was hoping that it would end with you going, hey, and now I'm doing this. But what, you know, this is real business. This is laid beer. And thank you so much genuinely for, for laying it out, because I'm learning. I'm a host myself as well as a podcast host, but I'm a host of str. And seeing these ups and downs, you've got to be resilient. And the thing is, compared to the first time it happened, you kind of know ahead of time, hey, I know what I've got to do. I know what this season's going to be like, you know, like as we release this, we now in December, as we release this, we're recording in November. And you know, it's one of those where we know it's probably not going to be a great couple of months ahead. Right. You know, like we, we kind of know it. But again, the right deals in the right market, the right staff with the right attitude, with the right contacts every time. The one thing that you're not losing is you're not losing those lessons that you're getting along the way and you're gaining that experience which will make you more successful as time goes on. You know, these extra, you know, Contractions and extraction, you know, like, as you're really growing as a business, it's like the heart pumping of the business as it grows, isn't it? So that's really cool. And obviously your story can help so many people, but also there's some questions which I want to dive into because I know there's going to be people going, ah, I wish Liam would have asked this. So a couple of the questions, and I know we haven't got a huge, huge amount of time for it, but a lot of people go, and I see this in Facebook groups all the time. Should I scale with this piece of software or should I scale with this piece of software? What software do you use or have you used? And does it really matter when you're looking at scale? You know, how important is it?

So, yes, it definitely does matter what software you use. So initially I was very involved in what software we were onboarding, but now it's A lot of my team is handling the software stack and I'll tell you, my software stack is probably inefficient. And we're looking to do transitions to some of the PMS that we have. So I'll give you an example, like Smart B or hospital Smart bnb, whatever Smart BNB is called now. Hospitable. And then I had Lodify. I, I ended up choosing Lodify because at the time I needed that hotel representative inventory model that they had and not too many PMSs had that. But then, then I had needed another software, VR scheduler to handle like the booking. So to give you long story short is like, you know, a Hilton or a Hyatt, they had the same exact room 50 times. So it's like playing Tetris with the calendar and putting people in back to back. But I only wanted 1, 2, 3 of those units listed on Airbnb, not 50 of them, you know, so Lodify allowed that. And then a lot of my communication that I use with my VA staff was WhatsApp, because that was what I was used to. And then I had my, like, WhatsApp groups with them, but then they started telling me that their phones are getting filled up so they wanted to get into Slack. But then, like, I'm not used to, like going on a Slack, so. And then we, we have like task management software. I know we've gone through, we've gone through Trello. And then now we have this new one. I don't, I can't remember the name of the new one. And then there's, we've gone through screening softwares like we've. We saw Auto Host was a little too expensive for us so we ended up doing Guest Ranger. Then we realized we could make our own in house Guest Ranger because we didn't really need their background checks. Cause we were doing our own background checks. A lot of Google sheets. I use Tableau for revenue management and I feel like my tableau dashboards are real sophisticated and I think it's really rare for people in the industry to use Tableau for that unless you're really high level. I mean, wow. Yeah, we use Zapier to connect things like the IT guy. I don't know really what automations it does. So like there's a lot of software to it. But like one thing that we started looking into was seeing where the softwares are at today because you know, we did a migration like two years ago, three years ago and it's tough to migrate from one software to another. It's almost like stick to the devil, you know. And even though they all suck, you know, but at least you know how bad they suck and you can control it. When you transition there's always things that break in between. So it's like it's not good. So when I was at VRMA like Guesty was the CEO was like pushing hard on me to like look at them and Host away also was like pushing me to like look at them and like Journey was also talking to me. But yeah, we're probably going to make one more software migration because we want to consolidate a lot of our softwares into one and it's going to be a cost reduction as well because you know, three softwares into one of, of Hospitable and Lodify and VR Scheduler. If one software can do that, it could save me like you know, 50% on software expense. One thing that I'm really, I was excited for in VRMA was there is these new companies that are coming out with AI and I know that like PMS is already starting it, but like I guess somebody told me that like 70% of their responses are AI generated and good enough to send. And I started thinking like that's like amazing data. It was a colleague who told me that he has that AI in his business. So I was like, you know, imagine like even more staff reduction for my virtual assistant team in Philippines if I'm able to implement AI in my business. So I got really excited about that. So we're like looking into getting that implemented. So yeah, that's kind of where my like software mind is on that. But yeah, choose your software wisely, you know, and do your research. All the software companies promise you the world, but you really don't know until you actually get it, get into it, you know, see if you could test it out with some units, if you have a lot of units. But you know, softwares are important but also like if you're like a operator with 1, 2, 3, 4 units, like if you stack up your softwares, you're not going to have any margin either. So you got to be careful with that too. So find the cheapos, you know, and.

Then do you know, the great thing is that the more I do this and talk to hosts, I see people scaling like with hospitable people scaling with. Hostfully people scaling with all these different softwares all over the world. And the most important thing I see is exactly what you've said there is like, hey, go and try them, see if it works for you. And if it works for you, great. Don't overspend, you know, and, and actually that's the moment, you know, the trouble is like you say, it can be hard to, to migrate and as you get more units the job becomes harder. Hopefully you've got staff at that stage to.

Yeah.

Help with that.

But Hospital, Hospital has probably been the one software that caused no problems like what they done since the beginning of time. I've been using them for like five years now. They just been good. So my people don't complain about that. And price labs, you gotta have price labs or pricing software like Wheelhouse or beyond pricing.

Definitely. We, we were actually, I've just got back from the Bushely bash as we record this and we had Hospitable, the guys there from Hospitable. So yeah, we, we've got a lot of time for Pierre.

Right? Pierre is, I think.

Yeah, we had Andrew representing from. From there. But yeah, there's. It is amazing to see that people can scale with any software. But it's nice to see that you've scaled with Hospitable there. So team wise, was there any. We've talked a lot about how you've got the units on, but team wise, was there any moments where you suddenly went, oh, I definitely need more people or what was the kind of different stages of the team? And how many team do you have now? You mentioned you had like 35 Bas or.

Yeah, I have 75 people.

Wow.

Which is like. Or maybe like 70. I have to do a count again. Cause I did a layoff, but 30 of them 35 of them are in Philippines. They handle all my backend work, which is the operation side, which is guest communications, which includes screening, which includes checking guests in. IT also includes the cleaning, scheduling the cleaners to come out and purchasing supplies and scheduling the maintenance of the units and recording it to the landlord so they come and fix it and all the operations involved. That's like my biggest team out in the Philippines. They handle everything. And then I have a finance team that handles my bookkeeping and my accounts payable for all my rents and my utilities. They also look at all my leases and do all my renewals. They also do my bookkeeping and forecasting and expense management. So they make sure that I know what's going on in the business with nice little dashboards so I have no surprises and I can make my decisions in the future for where I want the business to go. And then I have a team that's on the onboarding of units from an IT side where they connect all the different softwares, where they create the copy for the new unit and then they connect IT to the PMS and then the OTAs and they make sure everything's flowing through through price Labs. And they also license my units and register them properly with the city. And then I have a revenue management team, which it's one person in the Philippines that's doing the reporting for revenue Management. But the actual pricing guy is local to me, my colleague from when I work corporate and he does a pricing strategy and then I have a HR to help me with things in between. Like, like. So it's really like almost like a small business or medium small business. And I have like an organization, so I have leadership in each one of the roles over there. And then we have these like L10 meetings every week to go over all the different type of initiatives that they're going over.

Nice, nice. And thank you so much for breaking it down as well, because it's nice to see how a company that size is then structured. And yeah, we were a big fan of VAs. I mean, both Bruce Lee and me, within my hospitality company. So last couple of questions is, I know you know, thank you as again for sharing so much value because I know there's so many people who will listen to this and they'll be going, well, how do I get in touch? How do I find out more? And we're going to be sharing your details shortly. But before we do, what advice would you give yourself if you could go back, way back to 2017, what advice would you give yourself and what resources would you say? Hey, you know what? I wish I knew this. What resources would you turn to now to, to Foley? Yeah.

So one thing that if I could go back in time and, and know what will happen in the future, one thing is like in the COVID time, like I wish I wasn't, I didn't jump the gun and hand back those 90 units. I wish I've kind of saw things through a little bit, but I thought it was doomsday and I. That was my strategy at the time and that's all I knew. And I had to take some action or else like I kind of hedged it with my low end keeping 90 and continue business versus like losing all 180. Right. So if I knew how Covid was going to be with the demand and everything, I would have tried to kept all the units and not give it back and then be able to scale from 1:80 to adding the extra 200 and see where I would be at. But I only knew the information that I knew at the time. So that's one thing that if I could go back in time, I would change. Also, I wish I didn't over hire in 2022 thinking that the pent up demand was going to continue in 2023 and I was going to, I thought I was going to add another a hundred units or so. And I didn't hit any of my targets, you know, because of cash flow issues, because of my confidence. I got distracted in other ventures, whatever it is.

Right.

I overhiered and I ended up taking a huge expense hit because of that. I started looking at my margins and I decreased my margins in half and I started comparing that with some of my colleagues and then they were like, like what are you doing to your business? You know, you're going to make it go under. So I wish I didn't make that mistake either. I wish I stayed as lean as possible. Um, I kind of let my virtual Philippine staff hire where they think and they just gave me a proposal and I started saying yes, yes, yes. So I wish I didn't do that. You know, I would have been in a better position in 2023 obviously if I knew how, how bad the winters were going to be with the pent up demand being high and then the fatigue being low. I wish I knew that too. So there's a lot of wishes, but it's impossible to know that. Right. And it's impossible to know what's going to come next to me, what is going to be the next thing that puts me under. You know, like, I think, like, you. You learn from the past to know what's going to happen in the future. But it's almost like every month or two months, I had this devastating thing that always happens to me in my business. And it's like, you know, it makes me crawl into my bed and, like, you know, hold on to my stomach because it's. I get, like, pain, real pain, like physical pain. When something bad happens in my business, it's like, not good. Right? Yeah.

So imagine you've probably, you know, got good at dealing with that, but I just can't be. So, coming on to the last question just before we open, obviously, Bruce Lee, we're all about direct bookings. So do you do direct bookings? And if so, how? And if you don't do direct bookings, why do you not do direct bookings?

Yeah, so I've gone through a lot of phases in my business, and I have gone through being on just Airbnb, then going to other OTAs, then creating my own direct booking website through my PMS, and then getting direct bookings and marketing my direct booking website to other people. And then I started scaling up my business and I'm like, wait, I don't want these people to know my business anymore. I started becoming one of the bigger players in my markets and I was like, listen, I don't want people to know my address is, what my unit type is. I started having eyes on me, and I didn't like that, you know? Um, so I'm like, okay, you know, I actually want to de brand my business. My brand wasn't actually bringing me any value, and if anything, I felt like it was gonna bring me a target, you know? So I ended up going with the route of removing my direct booking website, removing any branding that I had started doing business as a dba. I started wanting going, like, under the scene. And that's kind of what I did for a lot of years. And I was really never gonna be in this, like, scene of social media or podcasts or anything. I actually, um, I did a couple podcasts in the beginning when I started my business, because I wanted everybody to know who I was. But I was like, wait, I don't want anybody to know. And then I was behind the scenes. But then because of this, like, cash flow problems, I'm like, wait, I need, like, a backup plan just in case. Like, if tomorrow is my last day in my business, I need to be able to do something else. So that's why I recently got into my personal brand and I started creating social media. And maybe I'll get into coaching, maybe I get into courses. I saw a lot of people on Instagram like, that had no business selling that. They know how to be an expert in Airbnb, right? So I'm like, wait, these guys are nobodies compared to what I've done, right? So that's kind of why experience, you.

Know, the experience difference between. I mean, I saw somebody today who's literally got six places, arbitrage, and they're like, now buy my course. And I'm like, hang on, you've only done one season. Like, whereas yourself, who's gone through the ups and downs and from the very early days, I mean, like you say, arbitrage wasn't a thing, was it, back in 2017? So.

Right. So that's why I don't have direct bookings anymore. But there are phases where I go where I'm like, okay, wait, maybe I could create another DBA and have, have some of my listings there and invest in social media and have people come traffic to my site. But like, one thing that, like, made me feel like direct bookings was not as important was when Domio ended up getting to a situation with Airbnb where they started, they got in trouble in the media and Airbnb ended up taking them off their platform like a thousand units. And then within that one, one month, they had to fire the CEOs of the CO founders of that, of the company Domio. And that to me showed me like they were not able to generate enough traffic to the direct booking of Domio.com even though they had millions and millions of dollars in marketing budgets and everything where they had to fire their two co founders because they cannot do without Airbnb. So that's, I had, I've gone through things in my, like, business to like, make me feel that way. So that's kind of where I'm at today. But I think it's the right way to do it. You should definitely do direct booking, but there's outliers of reasons why I don't do it.

Yeah, that makes sense and I respect that. And also what I really like is the fact that you've made a decision to either do it or not do it. You know, even at Boostie, we said, look, don't half do this. What you need is you need your brand out there to be able to bring those bookings. You're putting yourself out there, you're marketing. And I'd certainly, as a, as a Host myself. I'd love to be in that position where Airbnb are keeping an eye on me because I've got so many direct bookings. But you know that. But it's. It's one of those things, isn't it? But you've mentioned that you might do coaching and I know people listening to this right now are going to be interested to. Where can they find out more? Where can they come and give you a follow? I'm going to throw the mic open and. Yeah, yeah.

So I started my personal brand. I started my personal brand on social media. I started posting my life on Instagram and it's at Syed bnb, so it's under my handle at the bottom of the screen. So Syed being B. And you could see some of the stuff that I go through on a daily basis, some of the revenue figures that come in, a little bit of flexing because that's kind of what social media likes, like the cars and like the money and stuff. So you'll see that too, because I want to grow my following and so you'll see all of that.

Cool. That's cool. And I know there's going to be a lot of people who reach out and come and follow your journey. And thank you so much for sharing this. This has been fun. I've really enjoyed this. I've learned a lot and, you know, just knowing your story is awesome. So I'll come give you a follow. Normally we end with like a motto type question. So have you got a motto or a mantra which you'd like to share with the listeners?

So something that comes to my mind is like, bet on yourself, take action, don't worry about what bad things can happen. I'm a person that I have this alpha mentality where if I take action, I'm going to figure out I'm going to make it happen. So try to live by that as well and, you know, hopefully things happen for you too.

Nice. Nice. Thank you so much. And thank you to you listening to this on the podcast or watching on the YouTube, however you consume the media, those links around here around however you're consuming this media. So go and check out the links. Thank you for listening in and I look forward to seeing you on the next Boostly podcast. Thank you, Saeed for joining us. Thank you.