What is the best short-term rental PMS provider?

Everybody to another Boostly podcast. And this is another roundtable. So this is an extended version. This is a long form contact, over an hour long. We've got four amazing guests and we're going to be talking about property management software. But before we begin, I've got two sponsors for this episode. We've got Hostfully who do digital guidebooks and they've got a property management software themselves. Please do go check out hostfully.com you get a free digital guidebook. It is so important that everybody has a Digital Guidebook in 2021 and BEY, so please do go get your free Digital Guidebook from Hostfully.com. the other show sponsor is Xivu. Naim from Zevu is very kindly sponsored this episode. They are one of the leading PMS providers out there. I've known Naim for a while now. Anybody who's in a Facebook group around hospitality will know Naim. He's prolific. Zivu is growing massively through word of mouth. That means hosts all over the world. Many portfolios, one property, 100 properties, whatever it may be, are using it, loving it, recommending it. They've got some really exciting news that they will drop in this podcast episode. If you want to find out more, we've got a special page for you. Boostlead.co.uk Explore E X P L O R E. Please go there. All right, now we've got that out of the way, let's get on with the show. Okay, everybody, welcome, welcome, welcome, good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Welcome to another episode of the Bruce Lee Round Table. And today we are going to be talking about a very important part of all of your businesses. It's what powers it. In the background, we're going to talk about property management software, otherwise known as pms.

This is a freestyle going off the dumb.

Ready for my close up. Good looking, let me tell you. Get more bookings.

Oh, that'd be nice.

Giving me tips, tools and advice. Yeah, you're gonna get them, hon. You're gonna sit back, listen to Mark Simpson having a blast. Gonna get it on the Bruce Lee podcast. Bruce Lee like Bruce Lee. Cause it's so hard and the tea is loose leaf Making up those rhymes. Don't write it, just do it loosely. If you want my respect, you'll better butt direct.

Mmm.

Here are the words in the podcast. That's what comes next. Okay, welcome everybody to another episode. Now what I'm gonna do is we've got some esteemed guests with us today, so some lovely, lovely people from the world of STR short term rentals. We're from the world of property management software. We've got a nice little collection here. So what I would like everybody to do as you are tuning in, whether you're watching this on the live or whether you're watching on the replay, just let us know where you're watching from. Also let us know the name of your business, give your hospitality a little bit of a pitch and a promote and do it all in the comments, whether you're watching on Facebook or YouTube or even if you're watching back with us live, just come in and say hi. And also as well, do us a massive favor, just share this video into a Facebook group, share it with a friend, tell everybody about it. Because what we're going to be talking about this evening is something that is very, very important for your business because you literally going to spend every single day in one of these things. So what we're going to do is I'm going to, first of all, we're going to introduce our guest experts. We've got a lovely assortment. And then what we're going to do is we're going to dig into a couple of questions and then as we always do with one of these roundtables, we'll finish with some quick fire questions. But all of my guests, if you could do me a massive favor, we're going to start with David, David Jacoby of Hostfully, all my other guests and experts with me, if you could please mute your microphones when you're not talking, that would be fantastic. So what we're going to do, we're going to start first with, with Mr. David Jacoby. David.

I am. Thank you for asking.

My absolute pleasure. If you could please do everybody a massive favor, if you could just give yourself a little introduction, tell everybody who you are, the company that you founded and what you do and how you help host, please. That would be lovely.

Awesome. Thanks, Mark, for having me on and thanks for all you do for the community. Excited to reconnect. It's been a while. So I'm president and co founder of Hostfully and we help you run your business in multiple ways. So we have two software platforms that are standalone. One is digital guidebooks and the other is core property management software. We like to call ourselves a property management platform, PMP instead of pms, because we don't like saying PMS over and over and over again. And we do look at ourselves as a platform that's connecting many parts of your business and integrating with many companies. You can use both our products together, but we also have lots of clients all over the world who have another property management software and use our beautiful digital guidebooks on top of that.

Thank you very, very much. We're going to move swiftly on to our next guest expert this evening, Naim from Zivu. Hope you're well, buddy. Could you do me a massive favor? And everybody that is on with us this evening, could you just give everybody a quick of who you are and how you help hosts?

Sure. Thanks for having me on. So I'm a bit of a mix. I started off managing Airbnb flat service apartments. I didn't even know it was a thing. Then I found out there was a whole community out there doing the same thing as soon as I left university. Grew that business fairly quickly and then got stuck with operational issues. So figured out we needed software, tried to find software, tried out various types of software, couldn't find anything that worked the way we needed it to. So that's how Zebu started in the background, which is basically, I don't want to call it an all in one because everyone claims they have an all in one. We don't quite have an all in one, but we're working towards it. So property management system, channel manager, task manager, staff management owner, guest CRM and et cetera, et cetera, basically the brains for your business. And more recently, I've also set up an investment company to purchase hotels to then run the whole vertical.

Basically fingers in all the pies. That's how I best explain while you guys are doing. It's awesome to see and it's great to have you on the show. Thank you very much. Okay, we're going to move over to Mr. Terry White. Mr. Terry White, if you could please unmute your microphone. And if you could do everybody a big introduction. Again, there's two different sides to yourself. And I've been love discovering the side that we're going to chat this evening. But yeah, if you give everybody please just give the big introduction and just say hi.

Hi, Mark. Thanks for having me too. I have a vacation rental business in Florida's Gulf coast and in the mountains in North Carolina. But where I fit into this is I have spent maybe a thousand hours demoing, breaking down PMS companies and scoring them. Just. And it really started with I needed to find a solution. So when I started looking, I started, I've been through it so many times and I started documenting it and then I went back over it and then Matt Landow, he approached me about starting up a Business doing it. And so I went through the whole process again of interviewing every PMS again that I knew of upgrading their scores and documenting the whole process.

Fantastic. And this is one of the big reasons why I wanted you on tonight because what you don't know about PMS's I don't think is worth knowing. So thank you so much for being on here this evening. Moving over to Mr. Richard, Richard Farnham. How are we doing, sir? I've been looking for an excuse to get you on a Boosie podcast since I met you last February in London. So thank you very much for doing this. Genuine pleasure. Could you please give everybody the big introduction and how you are helping hosts. That'd be lovely, thank you.

Yeah, thanks Mark. Well, it's a joy to be on here, particularly with the other people on here as well. So yeah, I mean I've been in the industry longer than most people have been alive. I feel I've owned two sizable management companies and sold them. I'm a co founder of Rentivo, which is a software specialist company to the short term rental industry. That's a whole bunch of services. We don't focus specifically on PMS systems. We connect to other companies, PMS systems and provide very sophisticated guest front ends for thousands of properties. But we do build on top of PMS systems for those customers who've got growth companies who just can't find the right tools. So yeah, and I'm a director of yes Consulting which I started with Eric Mason just to help people out in the industry.

So thank you very much for that. And as you can see with the guests that we have this evening, we have got all the knowledge that you potentially need to help you guide you through your journey. Because when it comes to choosing a PMS provider, I think everybody will agree there's hundreds if not thousands of choice to choose from. And so what we're going to go and dig in tonight and it's really cool because we've got a nice little balance. So we've got people who actually run and founded PMS companies, property management software companies and we've got people that are on the other scale of either reviewing them and then helping host get all set up and whatnot. And it's just a real good like mix. So what I wanted to do this evening and we're going to start off with Terry. So Terry, I hope you're ready for this really, really simply for somebody who is watching this because I did put up some pre roundtable questions. I wanted the audience to sort of Ask questions. And the first one that came in, and I'll go straight to you, Terry, for this, it was what does PMS actually stand for and what does it actually mean? So if you could take off that first question, that'd be. That'd be amazing.

Simply means, and I think David said it better, I think we need to find a better word for it is property management software is what it is. And that's just how. It's just the hub of where you run your business. It's the. It's your universe. Everything starts from the PMS and goes out from there.

Yeah, fantastic. So we, now that we've got the. Now we've got the basics and what I would really want to dig into and what we're going to do, and I'm going to assume everybody watching from now on in has a property management software in place. Now, if you haven't, and if you want to go find out more, then please do go check out, you know, Hostfully and Zevu, because they are very kindly sponsoring this podcast episode, which is fantastic. We'll give you some of the links later that you can go check out more. But what I wanted to do, I wanted to come straight back to David on this one. So, David, and then we'll go name, and then we'll come to Richard. But David, the first sort of question that I have for you is.

You.

Have had lots and lots and lots of hosts come through the Hostfully platform. Now, what would you say from all of the questions that run through support and all the questions that come to yourself, what would you say is from your experiences are some of the big mistakes that most hosts make when they get started with a PMS provider with a property management software, what would you say that would be?

Well, coming from me, it might be surprising, but I'd say too much enthusiasm right away of people hitting the ground running and not understanding what they're doing. So it's complicated turning on a new property management software and migrating over, and you want to make sure you're doing the steps in the right order, otherwise you could mess things up significantly. Like if you, for example, connect to Airbnb right away and you don't have your pricing set up from your dynamic pricing company, then all of a sudden your pricing might not look the way you want it to be. Or if you don't have your payment processor set up first, you can't connect to VRBO or your live booking site because you can't take bookings. So just making sure you're following through the steps. You're working with that property management software with their onboarding specialist and plan to do it in a time where you can have a few days, you can have a week where maybe if you don't have one booking right away, it's okay because it's a little complicated if you're on booking.com and you need to get off, especially if you're doing a migration. If you need to get off your existing property management software and move over, there's going to be a time where you got to disconnect and configure things in the new software and get it right. So just take a deep breath.

Yeah, definitely take a deep breath. Thank you. Right, nine. We're going to come straight over to you, buddy. Now, do you agree with everything there, or is there something else you want to add to it? Or even better, this is what I love from roundtables. Have you got any kickback? Is there something that you maybe disagree and want to chime in?

Well, I think we seem to have some telepathy there. It's refreshing to hear what I thought was maybe something unique to the complexity that we've managed to make a mess off at Zebu, but glad to hear that someone else is having the same issue. You know, I often find that people will. They'll sign up and they'll expect all the automation that we can provide to just work. I'm like, well, yes, but not quite, because you actually have to tell the system how you wanted to automate things. Right. Everyone wants to do things slightly differently and there's a lot of knobs and you have to turn them all in the right way. And it's not enough to just sign up. It's not enough to sign up and pay for the first month. You actually have to spend some time in front of a computer. You can't set it up on your mobile phone. No, you can't. Even when we have a mobile phone app, you'll still need a computer to actually set the system up to start with. So I think it's just that patience and as David was taking the time to actually do it and do it right from the start, don't get going with one aspect of the system and then a month later realize, oh, actually now this isn't working. And it's because you actually didn't do the other two, three things that you have to do to start this.

Nice, good feedback, Terry and Richard. I'm just going to sort of, obviously, and I'm going to bring you Both on screen here, which is the power of the beauty of this Facebook Live that we are doing. So the same sort of question to yourselves, really. So again, you've spoken to many people and you see so many hosts doing this sort of thing. And maybe speaking maybe from personal experience, like right back in the day, is there anything that again you see or wish that you had done that would just make your life or the host lives easier? And we'll go to Terry first, and then we'll go to Richard. It's the same sort of question that I asked to David and Nine, but I'll give it to Terry and then Richard.

The single biggest mistake I see people make is the first thing when it's the biggest red light. As soon as they say, I only want something that will do this, this and maybe this, it's picking a software that you can't grow with. Like, you pick it, you use it for a year, you outgrow it. And you know right away when somebody says, I only need this, this and possibly this that, they're coming from spreadsheets. They have never used software in their life. And then one year after, they would have the exact opposite philosophy if they were doing it again, they would say, I want the biggest and most robust PMS I can afford. So I would say for sure it's going too small and not being able to grow with your pms.

Good.

I like that, Richard. So obviously we've had David, Naim and Terry's. We've obviously covered a lot there. Is there anything you'd like to throw in the mix or maybe even add your own spin to the question?

Yeah, I mean, all these guys have come up with my answer, but there's one word here and it's planning. What Terry just said is so true. It's something no one actually thinks about. This is a piece of string, a pms. And it depends whether you're a single host with one property who just wants to be on Airbnb, or your manager with 500 properties who wants to distribute everywhere and have multi currency and everything else you actually need to write down when you've taken on a pms. Before you take a pms, you need to write down a list of exactly what you want it to do and what you think it might do and what you think it might want to do in the future. I've actually pulled out today of a company a few years ago, sent me 279 lines of what they wanted it to do. So, you know, I think, yeah, I won't say any more. But yeah, you really need to plan what you're going to do before you start doing it. So David's right. You can't just go in there and start hooking up to stuff and expecting.

Everything else just to follow.

So when it does come to, because like I said, there's plenty of choice when it comes to a property management software and everybody does have different needs, what would you say would be the, the, the, the core and the key sort of decision factors that you would see. So obviously there's going to be lots of people saying well I need X, Y and Z. But from, from like if we're going to look at an 80, 20 sort of rule, what would be those 20% of factors that normally lie behind 80% of the, in the dis decision making in your opinion?

Well, for me, I mean it depends who's your customer? First of all, who are you looking at? Are you looking at an urban manager with two properties or a single host or one property? Or are you looking at somebody who's got an enterprise level growth business? Because they are wildly different.

Well, let's start off. I do like a scenario based question. I do love a nice scenario based question. Let's go and we can mix it up for all of our experts if they'd like to chime in on different ones. Let's go for. It's somebody based, let's say a rural area and they've got say three to four properties. So nothing too big. All rental, rental accommodation and they're sort of coming at this for the first time. So they're choosing like a provider for the first time, three or four properties. What would you say for them? That sort of person would be something key to sort of look at where should they be sort of deciding what, what should, what should they be looking. It's not the growth element, it's like just getting started. Because I think this is the main sort of question that I see coming to the hospitality community.

They own the properties, is that right Mark?

Yeah, yeah, they own all of them.

Yeah.

Okay, go on David.

I'd say at a high level the PMS should not define your process but rather the other way around, your process that you have in place. Because every property manager, if you've seen the operations for one property manager, you've seen the operations for one property manager. So their process should define the property management platform that they're going to choose. So they should take a pen and paper out and sketch out what is important to them and how they're going about doing things. What do I mean by that? Dynamic pricing or cleaning or insurance digital guidebooks. And then what are they going to get out of the property management software versus what are they going to use to integrate? Taking that one clear example, if they are using Price Labs or beyond pricing or wheelhouse and they love that, then the pricing features and flexibility within a property management software is less important because you're doing all the configuration in Price Labs or beyond your wheelhouse. On the flip side, using your example, Mark, if it's a smaller property manager with three properties, maybe they have their own cleaner and they don't have complex cleaning needs. So they might not need a breezeway or a properly or a turnover bnb. So the property management software, what kind of basic cleaning module do they have and does that work for them? And they don't need a complex cleaning cleaning module. So understand what their process is and understand what other software they're going to use. And the property management platform is almost the last decision. Everything should kind of fall into place and make that decision easy once you figure out what that process is.

That's a very good answer. Does anybody else. Because we're all on camera now. Go online. Get the hand up. I like that.

I did some agreeing earlier, so I'll do some disagreeing now just to keep things a bit more interesting. I'd actually say that a lot of people in that size don't know what they want and they don't know what they need. So we have people coming up saying, I want to automatically process the payments for booking.com and we say, well, actually, sorry, we don't do that. That's how I do it. I don't want you to do it your way. So 3D secure links are a must if you want to avoid chargebacks. Now, you might not know it, but you need it. So in some aspects, I agree that you shouldn't be adapting your business too much around limitations that PMS has, but you should be able to detect when a PMS is actually guiding your business along a path that will allow you to grow sustainably and safely.

Yeah, I do like go on, Richard.

Yeah, no, I'm completely in agreement with both of those statements, actually. But it sounds like what you've just constructed is somebody who's new to the business, they've got some properties they want to start. In this business, it invariably starts with the same question and it is, well, I need to get bookings. How do I get bookings? Well, I'll just put it on booking.com, vRBO and Airbnb. And I'll get bookings. I don't need to do anything else, do I? As we're just seeing, this is a piece of string. The synchronized inbox is the big thing as well. I want everything on my phone. I want all the inquiries in on my phone. I want to deal with them on my phone. Do I need anything else? Well, as David said, yeah, you got cleaners. How are you going to talk to your cleaners? How are you going to schedule your cleaners? I've heard about dynamic pricing. What's dynamic pricing? I need that too. Oh, I missed that. Oh, that's not in my pms. And I come back to this list and you could do this, Mark, you could create a big list of planning for people to identify what they actually need in the future. Because as Terry said, you're not going to just stick there with four properties and expect just bookings to come in and everything's going to be hunky dory. Because it's not. This is a full business.

I like that, Terry. Now you have reviewed them all. Is that a fair assumption to make or.

No, there's some that I have not seen.

Well, I think it'll be a never ending list to keep up with because they pop up so, so quickly. So let's just dial into the. To the ones that, ones that we haven't, obviously you review them for the, the Keystone Awards. Is that if I pronounced that right? Yep. So we got the Keystone Awards. So how many years has the Keystone Awards been running for now? Is this the second annual one? Have you been doing it for a few.

This, this will be, this will be the second one. And it was. I don't even know how it ever got born to start with in the first place. You know, it was, it was really Matt's idea. And this is the second one. Yeah, just started it last year.

So for those who don't know, Mr. Matt Landau, founder of VRMB and again came to Terry with an idea, ran with it. The winner of the first annual PMS is sat in our audience here, Mr. David from. From hostfully. Is that correct? There we go. So he's going for a. He's got, he's got a young gun above me will be competing for, for that. So when it comes to your service and like the. Well, not, not your service, but like the, the Keystone Awards, what are the key factors that you look into? Because I've already seen in the live comments somebody saying that everybody needs a Different X, Y and Z. So it's really good that there's somebody out there that is helping put all this together. What are some of the key factors that you personally look at when deciding these over overarching awards?

Okay, so I should maybe try and explain how the Keystone Awards came to be, that we built our own software for people to go in and how to choose the right property management software. Just like what you guys were talking about. Regardless, maybe you have three or four properties, maybe you have three or 4,000. So we built our own software, and then out of that, we started seeing trends. You know, what was the best for somebody with up to 20 properties, somebody up to 50 properties, somebody up to 300 properties. So we've just seen a whole bunch of trends. So we just decided we would create this awards program recognizing the strengths of these PMSs. So that's got time. And then what we look for, what I look for is a question that you're asking, what am I looking for in a good pms?

Yes, that's it. And my very long way around of asking it. Yes.

Okay, so the very first thing I look at in a PMS is distribution. And I can predict through our algorithm, I asked one question, and that question is, tell me how many channels you connect directly to. I don't hear anything about Channel Manager. I want to hear how many channels you connect directly to. If it's. I can predict within 95% accuracy if it's four out of the big five, which is booking.com, expedia, HomeAway, VRBO, TripAdvisor, and Airbnb. If they connect to four of those, they will, in our algorithm, they will score right around 100. If it's less than 4, they will score right around 75, 65. The difference between 65 and 100 are two different planets. They're two different PMSs that you can't even compare. And then when. When you look at distribution, it brings in more. Distribution is so misunderstood. It's not how many OTAs you connect to it. Also, it brings into email marketing, Google AdWords, it brings into your Facebook, PPC, Instagram PPC. And then that also brings into. That no one ever talks about now. That brings into your interface, that brings into your booking engine, that brings in your CRM. So the very first thing I look at is distribution. And I can predict 95% accuracy by asking one question.

Nice.

That's really interesting.

Thank you for that. Thank you for that. So seeing that we have two PMS providers with us, Richard and We'll go Richard and then Terry. Richard, if you could wave your magic wand and if you could see a PMS provider, create one thing for the, for the world of hospitality. And we'll go to Terry as well and you know, we'll let Naim and David pop into as well. If you could, if you could see him create one thing that we would really help host coming into, you know, we're into 2021, coming into 2022. Is there anything out there that you think is missing at the moment and you would like to see?

Wow, that's a really tough question. So just go back to Terry a bit on that last one. That was really interesting to me because at scale some of the really important parts of the PMS is a financial management and distributed financial management through marketing partners, et cetera, et cetera, multi currency, multi language, all this sort of stuff as well. What would I like to see? Well again, I think what Terry's just picked up in terms of distribution is the rigor, it's what everybody wants. They actually need to have a mixed marketing plan and it fits into everything. He just said I would personally and that's what we're involved in as well. I would personally like to see more PMSs, pay more attention to their guest facing websites. So everything has got to be dynamic. Everything through, I don't know, elasticsearch like we use. So you get real dynamic data, your conversions go up, you follow all Google's rules about mobile first, stability, accessibility. You know, I think that's going to become more and more important. I mean obviously Mark, you're involved in, you know, hashtag bookdirect and if you look at the, if you look at the siteminder reports today that came out, you will see that the hotels are doing extremely well from that part of their business. Now maybe it's Covid assisted, but I would like to see better API connections. I don't know, I haven't seen the Zivu one but I know David's up there is outstanding. So well done David. I think that's going to be more important rather than just saying to everybody, listen, if you want to make a booking, here's a PMS and here's some channels. All you gotta do is put it on the channels. The bookings come in and the PMS will do it. And can we change the name from PMS to pmp, PMP or PMS Booking Management System? Because most of these things, most of them don't actually do property management, they do booking management.

I Like that. I think we may have just started a new name. We're going to be calling it bms. Bms. Bms.

I wish you would. Yeah, there we go. If we guess.

I like that. Thank you. And it was a really nice answer. And we have officially started a new phrase, bms. So, Naim and David, no more PMS anymore. It's bms. Terry again. You know, you've just finished round two of obviously the awards and going to be published soon again, whilst doing all the research and X, Y and Z again. If there's anything different from what Richard said, is there anything that you could potentially would love to see a BMS bring in? Is there anything missing? Or are you happy that it's all there? It's just a case of doing a few things a little differently. What is your opinion?

I really don't like what I see going on in the PMS world right now. And I think they're going to live to regret this. I think this plug and play thing has gone too far and it's gone too far in this sense that everybody else is innovating, except for the pms. What they're doing is their greatest claim to fame is you go on LinkedIn or Facebook and, well, we're so happy to announce we have this new integration with so and so. Everybody else is integrating and they're not. And I'll give you an example here is. Cyrus is a. Is a really good pms. And instead of them just. They wanted a cleaning module, they didn't want to go down the breezeway or the property or something like that. So what they do, they hired engineers, they built it themselves.

Yeah.

And then they have their guest book. Their guest portal. They wanted to use it as a real guest portal so it would rival the guest guides and books that are out there. But they're doing it themselves. And then you look at. I love what I see with Streamline going on here. It's called Rev Max. It's their answer to Revenue management. But they're doing it themselves. They're not plugging and playing with somebody, Maxton. They're working on the same thing now. I just. This plug and play thing has gone too far.

Yeah, I'm with you on that, Terry. This silo approach to absolutely everything, to entrap your customers going forward is not a good move. I mean, you need to connect. There are so many experts out there. How many door locks are there? Are these companies going to go and start making door locks, for Christ's sake? So, you know, I Agree. You plug into the experts who are going to do the best job for you and you strike deals together and you move forward and you can pick and choose. You know, it's. Yeah.

You had just mentioned door locks. So there's, there's some things that you cannot expect a PMS to do like. And home automation would be one. But I would also say look at what, who's a company that owns Streamline now? It's Inhibit. What's it called?

Inhibit, Inhabit, iq.

But so you look, so you just look at what they've done though.

They have.

What did they do? They needed insurance. Should they get the insurance business? No, the PMS should not get an insurance business. So what they do, they went and they bought an insurance company, so they bought Rental Guardian, so now they own them. I could see the same thing with a really robust PMS buying a home automation company. So I think the chances are endless.

What they could do that home automation. Terry, I mean we've all been looking at Alexas and door locks and everything, but don't you think that your Googles and your Amazons and everybody else are just going to wipe the floor with everybody in home automation at some point and PMS is just going to have to hook into the global authorities. Let's face it, Google's not going to be interested in PMSs. They got a billion users of their products. They don't want another 100,000 of rental managers.

Yeah, they could.

The way I see the market right now though is the automation is definitely the way to go. And could I see somebody purchasing a home automation company? For sure. I could see that happen.

Yeah, really interesting. Yeah.

Let's bring in. Sorry gents, because this. I'm just in fraud listening. Let's bring in David and then nine because we've listened from the other side. Let's bring in the people who are living and breathing this every day. David, we'll go come to you and.

Yeah, it's interesting the comment Richard said. I think Richard about some property management software is trapping the client with the modules. Our philosophy is exactly the opposite. Trapping sounds like a bad word, but we feel that we become very sticky if we are able to play in the same sandbox with all the other vendors out there. We don't want to compete with Breezeway and try to outdo them on cleaning management or price Labs for pricing Operto and links for home automation. Rather we want to do the core. Well, as Terry said, distribution, have direct integrations with Airbnb, with VRBO, with booking.com, be a preferred partner for them with a guest TripAdvisor I don't feel like our clients are getting lots of bookings from them lately, but do that core have email automation templates and triggers to automate that guest experience in your communications have have a great owner's portal that all the homeowners can log into and see when their home is booked and how much money they're making. Then have a great API that makes it easy for other vendors to integrate with so our clients can choose the best in class vendors for all these niche software. That really is where a lot of the innovation is. Terry all these other softwares that are going on, it's amazing to see how the ecosystem over the past five years has exploded. Not only be able to have a great API to integrate with those, but also for the more tech savvy property managers have an API where they can access their data and do other stuff they want to do. Don't have it be a closed system, but allow our clients to innovate and build off the platform and integrate with a Typeform to send a really cool messaging automation or innovate with their search words or innovate with other integrations that they're building their own dashboards. We have one client who's made some really cool dashboards from our data and they're about to host it on our integration zone and offer it to other clients. Now, now it's becoming this ecosystem where our clients are helping each other out.

I like that. Naim.

Yes, hello. I think I sit somewhere in the middle. We started off as I mentioned, we use a number of different property manager systems and channel managers linked up together in various combinations to start with. The last one that we were with shall remain nameless. We somehow managed to get an API authorization to use their API, which was in itself quite burdensome, as was every information of your own data that you wanted to extract where they charge £100 an hour for a developer to send you an Excel spreadsheet of something you should have fairly easily been able to export yourself. But it got to the point where the cleaning they just said well get your cleaners to log in and read off the calendar. And I was just not good enough. We had 50, 60 properties at that stage and we just had a mistake every day. So I said let's start off by cleaning our own, by building our own cleaning add on to the system. And I looked at the systems that they integrated with and at the time they just didn't have anything that made sense. They had some hotel software that didn't work for more than one location, or didn't work for more than one city, or didn't have the right structure in terms of. I don't remember what it was with that specific one. So, for example, sharing cleaners between properties didn't work because you'd have to have a single login and the price just didn't work. And so I said, okay, we'll do our own cleaning system. And then as we started building to it, their API just kept crashing, where they just kept making changes, which meant we didn't get the information or the structure of the data kept changing. So there was already an issue there. And that's when I just said, okay, let's forget about it. We'll do our own booking system. Because that's all they have really, that actually worked and built around that. And then there's, you know, I just feel that the hospitality world is way behind in terms of software. Like, okay, we're talking about not reinventing the wheel, but I can't see why not every PMS out there, you know, doesn't have a basic cleaning system, a basic maintenance system, a basic, For God in the sake, linen management system. I mean, everyone in the industry deals with linen. You know, how do you know how much linen you need every day? I haven't found a system out there that does it. Trust accounting. I haven't found a system where I can log in and I can actually see how much money I've made as an owner of my business for that month. Zebu can't do it yet, but there's just so many things that systems don't do and I feel they're so basic. Yeah, of course you can get a BI dashboard hooked up to your pms, but the reality is it's never going to answer the exact questions that you as a business owner have. Yeah, you can play around with it and try and get some interesting patterns to emerge, but there's a core functionality that you really need in one system. And then, yes, of course, to expand, to extend on that. It's great to have additional systems, but if that core is missing, you can't have 10 systems just to make up the core. You know, you need a system that will be your core.

I like that. Thank you for what felt like a mini rant. But it was very good and it was very passionate and I feel like, I feel like we're covering off so many parts that I wanted to cover off in this podcast. And, you know, I think there'll be many levels of different hosts that are tuning in. We'll have people that are right at the very beginning or people who are experienced. And you know, it's really cool to be able to listen into these conversations. This is why I really wanted to do a roundtable type podcast. It's like a, it's like clubhouse, which everybody's talking about at the moment. Listening into something like this, which is really good. Now what I'm. What I'm going to do before we kick on with the, with the next and the. Well, we'll say the final step because we're coming up to nearly an hour, but by the time we get the quick fire questions out the way, I do want to give a big shout out to two of our sponsors that are sponsoring this show and I am so happy that they are both on this episode with us. So very big thank you to Hostfully for sponsoring this show. They've been sponsors of the Boosie podcast for years now and it means a lot. It means that I can keep it free to all of everybody listening. What I would really appreciate everybody to do, if you could just go to hostfleet.com like what David said earlier, there's two parts. There's the digital guidebook that I think everybody knows about now. We've been talking about it so much over the last six months. The digital guidebooks, however, are so important for all hosts. Please do go check it out. You get one free guidebook, absolutely free, and from there you can upgrade if you wish. And if you do upgrade, all you got to do is put Boostly 2M in the promo code and you get two months free. But also do go and check them out if you know if you've enjoyed what David has to say and you're intrigued at Hostfully and what they're doing. They are the current, current as Time of recording holders of the Keystone Awards. Then please do go check them out. And also a massive thank you to xivu, Naim and Zivu for sponsoring this as well. You can go and find out about everything that XIVU is doing. They have got many fingers in many pies. And if anybody has ever been in a Facebook group, you will know who Nyme is because he's in there all the time helping, telling advice, but also as well, really promoting XIVU really, really well. And I know from doing the website design side of Boostly for a lot of our clients are using Zevu and they do love it. So if you want to chat, find out more if you just head to. And he's given me a link. Boostly.co.uk forward/explore. So b o o s t-l y.co.uk explore e x p L O R E. All right, thank you very much for that. Right, so what we're going to do now, and I do love this, this is one of my favorite parts of every episode that I ever do. And we get guests on. We are going to do quick fire questions now. I will peel the curtain a little bit back. I did send all of our experts what the questions were going to be because I didn't want to put them so much on the spot. But what we're going to do is we're going to go through each one. And what I love about this as well, because we're doing this live and We've got nearly 100 people watching on all the platforms that we're on. You join in as well. So as you are watching live or on the replay, please do join in at home. We are going to start with Mr. Jacoby first. And the first question is, as I come on in your morning routine, I'm really, really, I will give a little bit of context, everybody. Before we went live, David gave a very nice little four letter word of what his morning routine was. But I'm not going to spoil it for those who. So everybody that's tuning in with us live, if you want to put your morning routine in on the comments, that would be amazing. But David, if you could be so kind, just explain to me what your morning routine looks like.

Sure. I'm not an inspirational role model for that. I wake up, I have my cup of coffee, I check in with my kids to make sure they're on their social, their social distance, remote distance, class and then I check my emails and get to work. So. So I'm a bit of a late owl and I am not exercising or doing that much in the morning.

That's okay. So interesting. So you basically just get up and go. Just get up. Kids, where are you? Are you safe? Are you in the house? Right, I'm off. Is that how it looks?

I like that. Bunny rabbit, wake up and boom.

I like that. I do like that. Just round me up and go. So when you say you're a night owl, does that mean that you do a lot of your, your work at night when the kids are asleep? Or do you, do you find you do a lot in the morning, break in the afternoon? How does that sort of work pattern work?

Yeah, Mark, you know, you're whatsapping me when you wake up and I'm responding back because I'm still up my time, so that's when no one's bothering me and I can sit and focus and get some of those longer, harder projects done and respond to some of those longer emails versus during the day, it's kind of rapid fire, just responding to quick things and slack messages and calls. So at night when the kids are asleep, when my wife is asleep, I can finally sit and focus on stuff.

Until I wake up and then I pester on WhatsApp.

Exactly. Yeah.

Amazing. Thank you very much. Okay, we're going to move on to nine, buddy. What is your morning routine?

If you really want to know, I'm a morning person. It's just that circumstances in life don't really permit me all the time to make use of that morning. So I usually start my mornings relatively late as well as those of you might have heard me before might know, I'm a Baha'. I. That's a religion whose purpose is world unity. And we believe to achieve that unity we have to work on ourselves as well as the society that we live in. So as part of that, we regularly read in the mornings and the evenings just a couple of passages from the writings of the high faith. So that's what I do when I wake up. Say a couple of pears. I don't have breakfast. I only eat once a day, dinner time. So then I do some exercises, have a shower and then get to work after that. Nice. Thank you.

Very nice. Terry, we're going to move over to your good self next. So describe to me what a morning routine looks like.

My morning routine is exactly the same as my afternoon routine and my evening routine is I get up in the morning, get ready, get dressed, get in front of my computer and stay there all day.

So, and this is, and this is the position. So if we were to speak to you at any point of the day. And that is a lovely painting in the background, by the way. I always admire that whenever we speak. So get up. Coffee. Is there any drink? Is there any breakfast? No, it's just straight water.

Water, vitamins and get in front of my computer.

Water, vitamins, go.

Love it.

Richard, I have been quietly really looking forward to hearing your answers.

Well, I'm a bit of a sad person as well. So I get up, I wake up at seven o', clock, I get on my phone, I check those emails from those people who want an immediate response from you. Have a cup of coffee, switch the computer on, try and get a bit of space before the dogs are walked, which is like 9 o' clock in the morning for about 40 minutes back to the computer, get welded to this chair I've been sitting in for the last year. And here I stay. I go past lunchtime. I might eat something at lunchtime. Not eaten so much in this year because of. Because of what happened at Christmas. Another dog walk in the afternoon, 40 minutes behind me. You probably see some exercise machines, a rowing machine and a bicycle. So I get some rugby on in front of the machines in the evening, get on the rowing machine, do a bit of cycling, get back on the computer, and my wife appears somewhere in the middle of this every now and then. She's a workaholic because she's got a photo studio and is constantly doing interior design for holiday rentals. How sad is this life we just live holiday rentals.

Do you always ignore her when she's standing behind you?

Say, yeah.

Do you always ignore her when she's behind you?

Thanks, Dave. I've actually locked the door from the inside. My dogs are from Thailand and they tend to wander out and expect attention and bones and food and stuff all the time. So, yeah, I go to bed probably around about midnight most night, just before I finish my emails. So, yes, Full day.

Full day. I like how the office and the gym is the same. It's like you've got the workout right there just in case. And the rugby. So what. What is your team, your rugby fan?

Well, it's Exeter Chiefs, of course, because they're close to me and they. They won the league and the European champions, so. Yeah. Well, we got the Home Internationals this weekend starting, so it's England versus Scotland. So if any of those people out there right now. How Scottish. I wish you well.

I love that. Thank you very much. I thoroughly enjoyed that. That's not the end of the quick fire questions. We're gonna go straight back in with Mr. David Jacoby. So what is. And this is a bit of a random question, so what absurd, crazy or fun thing do you like to do that anybody else just goes, that's mental. For example, guilty pleasures. And mine is. And I'll give you mine. So I love nothing more than to get a pack of. I don't know if you've got them in America and Canada, but a pack of Tic Tacs. Tic Tacs, Mints. Smaller white box. I just love to neck it all in one go. I don't have one or two. I don't know what it is. I just like to down it all in one. And that's the big ones, not the little ones, the big ones. My kids look at me just like, dad, am I going to get one? No, it's okay. Not today. And I just go. I just always been my thing. So, David, over to you, my friend.

Chug, chug, chug. So I guess two things. So one, the fun thing on the side, Lindy Hop, which is like swing dancing to jazz music. So that's my big side passion. I used to go out almost every night. Swing dancing, Lindy hop dancing. There's an international Lindy hop community. My wife and I, we traveled for a year. We stayed with Lindy Hoppers all over the world. It was awesome and I miss it dearly. Luckily, my wife is a Lindy Hopper, so we are able to dance. But all the big dances obviously have been closed for a while. So I can't wait to start swing dancing away with people again. And then also on the side note, I'm actually just making it into the year 2000 or so where we got a Nintendo Wii for my kids to get some exercise because they were not getting out of the house and as much. And I've gotten addicted to that as well. So my 9 year old and I are battling each other on skateboarding around the park on that Wii Fit board. And that's been getting addicting and it's been a fun way to exercise in the house during this pandemic.

Amazing. I do like that I learn something new about you all the time and I love it even more and I look forward to when you're able to swing again. So thank you very much, Mr. Nimes. What crazy, fun, absurd thing that you do that other people think is crazy, AKA a guilty pleasure.

I was hoping that David going first would inspire me with something because I know you asked the question ahead of time, but I couldn't really think of anything to answer with. As David was talking, I was trying to come up with something. Maybe what you might label me as crazy for is although I'm a perfectionist and if I do something myself, I'll usually spend 120% of the time to get 80% of the result. I guess when I delegate things, it's sort of I assume that the other person is the same. And I know when I was a kid I never really trusted anyone to do anything because they never did it right. But since I've gone into business, I've sort of decided that you can't always get things right and people are just Going to do them wrong. So I've got to the stage where I sort of don't really care when things go wrong. I've sort of got detached from things going wrong because I just assume things will go wrong. So I tend to start a lot of projects and do a lot of things and delegate a lot to the point where my dad asks me two weeks later, by the way, what happened to that massive issue you had at that property? I'm like, why do you ask me? How should I know Someone else is dealing with it, their problem.

It's a nice insight. I can see Naim at school now on the playground just telling everybody what to do and he's just instantly just disappointed as they walk off in the wrong direction or something. Real nice insight to little nine there. But Terry, we'll move straight on to yourself. What would be your guilty pleasure?

Well, seeing that I sit in front of my computer all day, you know, you just can't. You go crazy. But when I'm here and I'm just answering, you know, one email after another after another is I go on the YouTube video and I just get fascinated with watching these documentaries and videos on the mafia, how they just, how they just scam people, how they just. If they disagree, they beat the crap out of you, they put a bullet in your head. They just infiltrate their most corrupt people in the world and just, just reading. But it just fascinates me because they're. True story. I hate fiction. I hate everything fiction, you know, true stories. I love.

I'm with you on that one. Fantastic. Thank you very much for sharing that, Richard. So we've got Terry doing the YouTube mafia videos. When you're not doing the rugby in the gym in. On the computer in what. What do you like to do that your wife thinks is just crazy?

We all like to talk while we.

Don'T very hard about this when you pose this question. So yeah, I live close to the coast, so that's one of three things. So I do a bit of midnight beach running and then naked, by the way, serious. I've got a thing about motorcycles, so I've got a huge motorcycle and I know it's illegal, but I do try and see how fast it will go too often, which is extremely fast as it turns out.

All legal.

And the third thing is I trade some cryptocurrency and try and figure out how my son's managed to do so well on it. So as I'm sitting here with the computer on, I've got Binance on. So I'm watching eth and Bitcoin and vechain and Omisego and all those as well. So, yeah, I've got a few, but they're not like yours. Glugging, plugging, a whole packet of sweets. Although I do love pastels. I will eat a whole packet of pastels in one go, given it. And the same Maltesers.

There you go. Yes, 100% Maltesers. No, I like that. It's really interesting. A little bit of cryptocurrency crept into the conversation there. It's proven to be very, very popular at the moment, as my Coinbase app tells me it's getting even more popular. So very, very interesting. Interesting. Okay, so the final question. And I'm going to leave to everybody and we'll start with Richard and then we'll work our way back this time. What is. Excuse me, your travel prediction. Excuse me, for 2021. I don't know where the hiccups has came from, but what is your travel prediction for the rest of 2021? We'll go with Richard and then we'll go Terry Naim and then end on Mr. David Jacoby.

Yeah, well, that's very convenient because I did a video on it last night for somebody. So, yes, Urban is going to be a disaster still, probably up until the end of the year. International regional business is going to be way down, particularly in Asia, again because of flights. And Covid, when breakout comes, domestic travel will be like an avalanche. It'll go off the scale. Everybody will want to travel domestically. That provides one big problem or two or three big problems. There is insufficient inventory from owners for agencies and OTAs, which means, bearing in mind a lot of the bookings have been pushed forward to this year from last year based on vouchers and rebookings. It means the owners are going to be really heavily courted this year to either up the game on OTAs and open the calendars, and agencies will want them as well because they don't have enough inventory to satisfy their bookings. And guess what you can get. You can bet the OTAs are actually going to have their calendars blocked out en masse by the large companies who can do the bookings direct. So OTAs are wounded animals right now. And you have to wonder what's going to happen? Will Airbnb buy Expedia as a thought, who knows? Possibly. And the final thing is, I think maybe Terry mentioned it. It was the fact that. And David, Technology is going to infiltrate. This has been an inflection point. Covid is an inflection point for a lot of this stuff. So technology, the specialist companies are going to accelerate remote entry, remote booking, distancing from people because of COVID And then you're going to get compliance, you're going to get certification, you're going to get all these things. It's going to become much more professional and I think it's going to be pushed from the OTAs down and from the bottom up because that's what guests want. The hotels are actually going to challenge it at that level. So, yeah, that's it. I could keep talking all night.

No, I do love, I do love hearing predictions. Obviously these are our opinions, but, you know, I think we've got some really good people that know a lot about this industry and know a lot about events happen in the past and obviously things that could potentially happen in the future. Mr. Terry White, we'll move on to you next. What would your predictions be for the rest of 2021? And obviously Dave Richard's obviously speaking based in the UK and obviously you're in Canada, property in USA. How, how do you see it that side of the pond? So we speak.

Domestic travel is king for sure. The airlines will remain on life support to the end of the year. I think the worst of the COVID is in front of us. March and April are going to be horrendous. The new strains are going to cause a tremendous problem and just in the infection rate. I'm not saying that the vaccines are going to be effective against it. I'm just going to say the transmission is just going to be out of this world. I see at the national level where the United States never had a national strategy, they didn't listen to science, they didn't listen to the scientists. I think with the different administration now they're going to listen to the scientists, to the science. I think there's going to be a shutdown coming again. And I think 2021 is purely domestic travel and nobody's doing the United States. They're having the real challenges on their vaccine rollout. No, I don't think any country is doing a worse job in the world at the vaccine rollout than Canada is. So, you know, we've got some, we've got some big challenges coming here.

Okay, okay, well, keep, everybody keep safe. That's obviously the main message. But another, another shout for vacation. Sorry, domestic travel. Naim, we'll go to you and then we'll go finally to David. Naim, any, any predictions for 2021?

Well, I'd hate to be wrong. So I'll start off by saying what I'm really certain about is that my travel in 2021 will not involve a private helicopter, private jet, maybe 2022. We'll have to wait and see. But something that actually I wanted to mention earlier, the Big five didn't include Google. And I think that over the next year, we will see Google move to the forefront of travel with the launch of a number of interesting things that are coming up. And I hope that independent hospitality providers will rally up and use the tools that are not quite out there yet, but we will be putting out there fairly soon. Free for everyone. The only two people who really know about this are Terry and Mark. And you're both on the call, so the rest can hear about it. But Zebu will be providing completely free access to Google hotel ads for anyone who wants to boost the direct bookings. So if we work together and get the inventory on Zebu Direct and get it out there, as I think Richard was mentioning, we'll be able to block the inventory on all the OTAs and just get booking engines. Booking engines working, direct bookings flowing.

Yes, I think, I think just to reiterate what a lot of people said, direct bookings are going to be very, very powerful. We are obviously recording this on the 2nd of February live. Tomorrow is National International, Worldwide Book Direct Day. So, you know, please do make sure that you use that hashtag bookdirect and spread the word and tell your guests and tell your followers why it is important that people should book direct. So make sure you do do that. David. Mr. David Jacoby, we will end on you. What is your travel prediction for 2021?

All right, so piggybacking off of what you said with direct bookings, I'll do a quick plug for our annual hospitality report. Every year we survey hundreds of property managers and ask them a whole bunch of questions and put out a pretty cool report so you can see what the benchmarks are and how you can compare against other property managers. And direct bookings, there was a big increase in that, and that's only going to continue, I think, with the big cancellation wave with Airbnb earlier in the year, people have realized not to put all their eggs in one basket. And I know I'm preaching to the choir on this, Mark, So folks can go to hostfully.com and click on reports and see that report and a lot of others. But in addition to that, flexibility is still going to remain flexible cancellation policies. I mean, by that, and both with airfare as well, as booking vacation rentals, it's going to be now that everyone is doing that, it's going to be hard to be the first one to take it away. So I think that's going to persist for a while, to airline chagrin especially. And also, as Richard commented, towards the end of the year, once this herd immunity starts to happen, and you know, knock on wood, it will happen sometime this year, urban vacation rentals, they've been decimated, but they're going to come back really strong. People are wanting to, you know, not to be in urban places right now, but they're missing it. And once it's safe to do that, urban vacation rentals are going to be big. And then finally, I'd be remiss if I didn't add the importance of a beautiful digital guidebook. It's now more important than ever because you need to clearly explain to the guests certain safety precautions and cleanliness issues within the home, but also local recommendations. You need to be able to tell them easily what's open, what's not, maybe some alternative things from what's usually popular, going to some indoor music venue instead, what are the cool hikes to do nearby. And that's what makes or breaks an experience. So as people are staying local and going to vacation rentals in nature, it's up to you to provide that five star guest to experience. And you need to have great recommendations for them.

Yeah. And.

Go on, Richard.

Yeah, sorry. Something that we've all missed is, and I'm privileged to some of this is we're going to see a lot of new businesses hitting this space too. So there's a whole bunch of new business models out there, eco friendly ones. We're seeing a lot of verticals coming in as well. Major companies looking to use their hospitality programs to accelerate their income for this year. So they're going to be nibbling away at everybody. And that means you need aggregated data, aggregated properties as well. So we're going to see a lot of that.

I think it's a big, big, big, big industry and, you know, we are in it. We are, you know, definitely at the forefront of a lot of people's views and opinions. And I think that it's been fantastic to do this. And if you have enjoyed this and if you want to see us do another one of these roundtables and please let me know in the comments. If you're watching live, do me a massive favor and just hit that thumbs up button as fast as you possibly can do and say thank you. To all of our guests, you've just had a bit of an exclusive tonight from Sivu from Knime about the Google hotel ads. If you want to find out more, he was very vague in what he said, but it was very, very cool. So if you want to obviously find out more, you need to go to boostly.co.uk explore. It'll take you to a page and then you can contact the team from there. Now, before we finish and before I let the guests come back on, one more time and just say how you can keep in touch, how you can find out more about what they're doing behind the scenes. If you could do a massive favorite whilst you are watching this video, whether it's live or on the replay, what I would love for you to do is two things. Number one, hit the share button. So if you're watching on Facebook, there is a share button. Please go share it into Facebook groups, go share it on your personal wall and just tell other hosts about what we're trying to do here, how we're helping. And I think this is ideal for anybody who is currently got a PMS or looking to get a pms. I think there's just so many different factors to it and I think we've covered a lot tonight. Also, what I would love for you to do and we'll do a little. We'll do a little competition. I've got some Boostly goodies to send to some one lucky person in the post. I've got all of the esteemed guests on the screen right now. What I would love for you to do, if you're watching on your phone, take a screenshot. If you're watching on a computer, take your phone out, take a picture and then go and post it on Instagram Stories. Instagram Stories or Instagram and then just put oost boostly UK just as David's doing it, ostleruk and hashtag bookdirect. Because I really want to get the attention to bookdirect. Going over the course of the next 48 hours is something that I can do quite well, is get a lot of attention to something very, very quickly. So what I would love for you to do, go and post on Instagram Stories bookdirectuk. You need to do the Ostler uk. So I get the tag and if I get the tag, I'm going to pick one person over the course of the next 24 hours and this is only for those who watch live and I will send you some Boostly goodies in the post. All right, so we're going to finish up. We're going to go. David Nyme, Terry Van Richard. David, first and foremost, how can anybody find out more about Hostfully and where's the best place if anybody wants to reach out and say hi, the floor.

Is all right, so our website, Hostfully, H O S information about our property management software, our guidebooks, all our industry reports, our blog. So check that out. Anyone wants to reach out to me personally, Davidostfleet.com would love to hear from you.

Fantastic. Moving on to Naim. You've been very, very generous with your time and a bit of a nice exclusive there. Thank you very much. How can people find out more, apart from the link that I this gave earlier?

Well, the way we've grown over the pandemic has been by word of mouth. So I'd say the first thing is ask around. Ask people who've signed up to Zebu, who started using Zivu, who are contributing to making Zebu what we all want it to be. And if you want some generic information, of course you can come to our website, Zivu.com or if you want to have the special information, you head over to busi.co.uk explore. You can drop your email address and someone will reach out and answer any questions you might have.

Fantastic. And how are you spelling Zivu?

Z, double E, V, O, U. But you can spell it whatever way you like because we actually have a page on our website with all the common misspellings of Zivu.

I love that. Thank you, Terry. We'll move on to your good self. If anybody wants to find out more about the work that you're doing, find out more about the blog or anywhere. Keep in touch. Where's the best place?

How can we do so vacationrentalsoftwareguy.com or terry@annreylandbeachrentals.com Fantastic.

Thank you very, very, very much for coming on this evening. I massively appreciate it. I'm really glad that we've been able to get you on Richard. So we've got a newsletter. Fantastic newsletter. I love reading it. And where's the best place that people can keep in touch? How can they get hold of it?

Well, yeah, I mean, go to rentivo.com as a website or yes.consulting as a website or Richard at either of those. Richard, Rentivo or Richard at yes, Consulting. And I'm also all over LinkedIn and I actually really love people connecting directly because they're actually the people at the sharp end. We're at other parts of the ecosystem. But it's really great to talk to people who are actually taking bookings, facing guests, cleaning stuff, you know, mopping the floors, doing the toilets, all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, direct connection is great. Love it.

And I just want to say as well, I'm really looking forward to whatever point it may be 2021 or maybe 2022, being able to go back to live events and seeing all your faces at them, wherever it may be in the world. I'm really looking forward to that. And I just want to say thank you so much to every single one who has joined us this evening and thank you to everybody that has tuned in live. It's been. It's really cool. We've had almost 100 people, which is fantastic. I just want to say thank you so much to our sponsors, which is obviously XIVU and hostfully. We will include all of the show notes, we'll include a full transcription, we will have all of the links that we mentioned. It will be on the Boostly blog, so to find that, go to boostly.co.uk podcast and all of the information, plus all of the other 10 series that we have done of this podcast will be on there as well. We've got hints and tips and interviews. We've got everything that you could possibly need. So we're in season 11 right now with the Boostly podcast. Very, very, very, very soon we are going to be doing a podcast episode every single day, so you can get your Boostly fill, whether it's on your phone, computer, tablet, wherever you may be, or whatever social media. We're going to be ramping up the amount of content, free content, that we put out there to help the hosts and guests. So for everybody here, thank you so much and we shall see you very, very soon for another episode of the Boosted podcast, and it may even be tomorrow. Depends on how quick my editing team can work. So, thank you very much and we shall speak to you all soon.