S2:E14 - Wolfs Den - Tony Doherty with Mark Ottobre - Full Podcast

Welcome to the Wolf's Den.

My name is Mark Ottobre. Today's guest, if there was a Hall of Fame for contributions to the health, fitness, and bodybuilding arena, this man would have a picture hanging high on the wall. He is the founder and owner of 6 gyms, Dougherty's Gym. His brand and apparel is worn by bodybuilders, athletes, and celebrities all over the globe. He is the president of the IFBB Pro League, and he's the business partner with the one, the only, and probably the most recognizable man on the planet, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Please give a warm welcome to Tony Doherty. So Tony, we met 13 years ago, and I remember I was a kid. 20 years old, and I called you up and basically called up the gym and said, hey, I want to speak to Tony. And lo and behold, you got on the call, and I said, mate, I want to compete, can you coach me? And you said yes. That was 13 years ago. The rest is history. The first time I walked into Doherty's gym, and we will jump around in this interview a fair bit, but the first time I met you going into Doherty's in Brunswick, the only way I can explain it, being a 20-year-old kid, it was a Disneyland. For bodybuilders. And what I wanna start with is, was that always your intent to create something that was comparable to the mecca of bodybuilding, which was previously known as Gold's Gym in Venice Beach?

Yeah, pretty much. I went to Gold's Gym in Venice Beach in, I think it was 1991, 1990, 1991 for the first time. And I still had my gym in Bendigo, country Victoria, which was my first gym. And I walked in there, it was a little bit like you walking into Doughty's for the first time. It was like me walking into Disneyland. And I looked around, I saw the big guys that I'd seen in the magazines training. And I saw this incredible atmosphere and all these pictures up on the wall, all this history. And I thought, yeah, we don't have anything like that in Australia. And I wanna bring this one day to Australia. So when I, that's sort of how the vision started. And it was even more like I went over there knowing that it was a, the destination point for all young bodybuilders. And you had to go there to experience it. But it was probably even more than I could have imagined. 'Cause you can't, from pictures, and back then it was just magazines, there was no internet, but from pictures you can't quite understand an atmosphere, right? You can look at something and go, it looks pretty cool. But it's a feeling. I remember when I walked in there for the first time and I took an Australian bodybuilder by the name of Sonny Schmidt. So when I started promoting, he was the first guy that I kind of bought into the fold because he wanted to be a professional. I thought I had the tools to get him there, which I did. And I took him to his first competitions in America. So we went and hung out at Gold's for quite a few weeks and stayed at this place called the Marina Pacific Hotel, which was also kind of a destination point. And it was more than I could have imagined. And because we went in there together, together and, you know, he had a bit of a following and I was coming up in this sport. They treated us really well. So we've got a little bit of sort of sponsorship sort of status and they gave us some clothes and let us train for free. And it was just super cool.

So just on that, I mean, you essentially, what you did was you bottled atmosphere in essence. You went and you saw the Mecca, you saw the atmosphere and that's what you wanted to recreate. And you looking at that atmosphere, was there something specific that you go, right, that's the X factor that I need to bottle and bring back to Australia?

No, I wouldn't say there was anything specific. I'd say it was a number of things that made it specific. Does that make sense?

Was there anything that you thought, right, this is that you emulated or tried your best to emulate?

No, honestly, what I tried to do is to do it better. And I know that sounds kind of cocky, but I looked at it and I thought, okay, this is really good. And it's more than I imagined. I guess I went there the first time and thought I was just overwhelmed. Wow. Then the next time I went there, like a year later, I thought it had softened off a little bit. Then I went there 2 years later and it had started to become very corporate. And that was probably where I really did bottle, okay, it was what I saw in '91, '92 was way better than I saw in '94, '95. And I think if they had kept going in that direction, they could have actually got better at it. Instead, they got bought out by a corporate firm and started trying to please the masses. And I thought, you know what? I'm gonna keep going in the direction they were headed in. And they were probably a year away from achieving what I'd already seen. And it sounds cocky to go to the greatest gym in the world and say, I can do it better, but I did. And so I came back to build my brand here. And at first I thought about doing Gold's Gym in Australia. And the guy that sponsored us over there was the international franchise manager, a guy called Rich Minzer, who I'm still friends with now. And he offered it to me, but it would have cost like about, $30,000 or something to buy the licensing. And I would have had it first, but I didn't have 30 bucks, let alone $30,000. I couldn't have imagined. And I looked at World Gym and I looked at Powerhouse Gym. I looked at all these big brands, 'cause I knew you kind of had to have a brand. And I couldn't have afforded any of them. Even if they had given it to me, I couldn't have paid the first month, you know. But I'd been promoting bodybuilding for a few years, you know, Tony Doherty Presents. I thought, oh, people kind of know my name. I'm gonna do Doherty's Gym. And then I don't have to play the company line or worry about someone changing direction or I can be me. And once I knew that, I thought, right, now this is what I'm gonna build. And I had a very clear vision of building what I've done.

When you talk about doing it better, is this a specific example that probably comes to mind that you thought, right, well, this is where they kind of dropped the ball or was it more the culture that started and then kind of went to the corporate that you—

It was more that, it was more avoiding the sellout. You know, avoiding the membership consultants, you know, where I remember when I went back there one year, I couldn't tell you what year. And they put in these little booths where the membership consultants sat with their friggin' body shirts and school shoes. And I thought, that's not a gym, man. I never wanna do that. I never wanna have a call center. I never wanna have my people sitting around doing telemarketing and having a dickhead in a body shirt, you know? And I hate that 'cause I travel a lot now. Like I'm actually on the road about 6 months of the year. Sometimes more. And I'm doing all the Arnold stuff. So wherever I am, I go look for gyms and I always wanna find a gym, you know, not a fitness center or a Fitness First or, you know, whatever. But sometimes that's the only choice. And whenever I go into one of those kinds of gyms, I'm like, hey, can I train? They're like, yeah, it's like a million dollars for a casual workout, euro. I think it's like 30 bucks euro, you know, to have a workout for an hour.

I'm like, man, all right, I didn't wanna, So just on that, when we first met, it was 13 years ago, life has certainly changed for me in a big way. I mean, back then I was single, no kids. The only worry that I had in the world was where my next meal was coming from. Contrast to you 13 years ago, I think it was 2015. I remember a brief in catch-ups that we've had, there was something around you bankruptcy almost, or you really had to pull it out and turn things around and to come to see where you're at now. I mean, if someone tapped you on the shoulder back then and said, hey Tony, keep working hard back in 2005. You know, mate, you'll get there. You'll achieve everything in your wildest dreams and then some and eventually be business partners with Arnold Schwarzenegger. I mean, what was going on? First of all, I know that's quite a big question, but first of all, what was going on for you in 2005?

Right, I'll answer it, but I'll just finish where I was going 'cause someone was looking straight at me with that question. With the corporate thing was what I didn't like was when I go into gyms when I'm traveling, and have people say, before you can even have a workout, we'll get you a membership consultant. And you need to sit down and have a little interview before you can even see the gym. And then I do have a credit card. And I hate that side of the industry so much that I thought I wanna be everything that's not that. I want people to come and go, hey, can I train here? 10 bucks, go. That's the end of the conversation. So that's it. So back to, so 2005, when we first met, Yeah, from the outside looking in, you'd think, oh, this guy's starting to go all right. You know, the gym, we'd sort of taken over the whole building where we're at now, not what we've got now, but the whole of the building in Western Street. We'd been open 24 hours for 7 years then, which everybody said was gonna fail and was impossible. And there still wasn't a lot of 24-hour gyms there, but I didn't have the expos. I didn't have the other gyms. I wasn't doing the speaking tours and all that sort of thing. Partnered up with Arnold. So I'd just done my 4th pro show, Australian Pro, which is now the 3rd longest running show in the world. But back then it was just like the one that everyone said would fail. Oh, this won't last.

That's the Arnold, Olympia and yours.

Well, yeah, the Olympia has been going the longest and the Arnold Columbus has been going now 30 years. And I'm in my 18th or 19th year with the Australian. Australian Pro, yeah. So that's, you know, when I started it, look, everything I've done, everyone said it was gonna fail. Whether it was the first 24-hour gym, when I moved to Melbourne to do a bodybuilding gym, they said, "That'll fail." I'm like, "Well, thanks, I'm gonna do it anyway." And then when I moved into Western Street and went 24 hours and threw away the keys and said, "We're gonna be staffed all the time," everyone said that'd fail. Then when I did the pro bodybuilding, everyone said that'd fail. Then when I said I was gonna do FitX and build this fitness expo bigger than anything else in Australia, Of course, they said it would fail. And then when Arnold approached me, I said, we're gonna swap it now into the Arnold Classic and then the Arnold Sports Festival. Look again, the same people, that can't work. So I've really learned that you've gotta take advice, but at the same time, stick to your guns and do what you know in your heart and what your passion is and follow it and make it work. And one thing I've learned, Mark, sort of one of my more famous sayings, it took me a long time to get my head around this and we're digressing a little bit, We all have this habit of doing things to prove people wrong, right? Starts with your family, your brother and sister, you're shit, you know, you're gonna grow your muscles and you're like, well, I'll show you, I'll do it to prove you wrong. And you do a million curls and all these sit-ups and things. And then it might be your peers and it might be your mom, dad, someone. And all the time, one, we worry about what people think, which we shouldn't do. But two, we kind of, want to do things to prove people wrong. And I had this revelation only the last few years that the, where the essence of it lies is you're almost there. It's not that, it's do it to prove yourself right. So I always had this thing when people said you can't do it, I'm not like, oh, I'm going to prove you wrong. It's like, yeah, you know what? I know I can do this. And I appreciate your concern. And a lot of people you hear this, especially with the internet age, oh, they're all haters. They're not. Most of them love you. They just don't want to see you get hurt or fail or, or experience loss or sadness and all this kind of thing. So they say, oh mate, just take it easy. We just want you to be okay and not to fail, but you need to fail to grow, right? So always have these advisors and people say you can't do it. And I wanted to prove them wrong at first. Now, no, I know where the truth is. Just do it to prove yourself right. Because if they really do hate you and you win and you get it right, they still hate you, they hate you more. And if you fail, they're gonna be the first ones going, I told you so. Right? So why would you want to prove someone like that wrong when they don't, I was trying to swear, when they don't give a shit about you, why would you care what they think? And this controls so many things that we do, worrying about approval of others. So I learned to ignore that. So back to 2005, man, yeah. I thought I was going okay, but the problem was I was never a good bookkeeper. I was never good at doing budgets and all that sort of thing. I thought, oh, the gym's busy, we must be going okay. But we'd gone into an overdraft. I'd still had this debt. So, and I'm really open about this. I just don't lie, which is probably why my speaking stuff kind of working. 'Cause I'm not on a pedestal saying I'm better than anyone. I'm just one of you guys made more mistakes. But when I moved from Bendigo in 1994, I'd mortgaged my parents' house or they had to finance my first gym, which I paid now that I know the industry 3 times more than what it was actually worth. And I left there with $250,000 debt. 1994, a truckload of broken equipment. I didn't have a single thing in the world. I had a garbage bag of clothes. I slept on the couch at the gym for nearly a year. I had 3 possessions. I had a rice cooker, a couch, not a flash one, just a couch. And a vertical grill. You know those grills? They look like a toaster and you put chicken breasts in them. One of them. And a garbage bag. I didn't even have a suitcase. Garbage bags with my clothes in it. And I'd close the gym. At night, wait for everyone to leave and I'd hide in the car park behind a tree, 'cause this is before we were 24 hours. And I've told you this story before, and then I get up in the morning and have a shower. I go up to McDonald's 'cause they opened at 5:30 and we opened at 6:00. I get a coffee and a newspaper 'cause I had my dignity and I didn't wanna tell people I was effectively homeless and I slept at the gym every night. So I'd go and get a coffee and a paper and walk back to the door where they were now waiting to get in, 6 o'clock in the open. I could do it 5 to 6, good morning everyone, as if I'd came from somewhere, my imaginary home. And I did that for nearly a year because that's what sometimes you have to do to make a business work and to not say, oh, poor me, you know? So I thought that was the hardest time I went through. Then forward wind to 2005, you know, I was in more debt and that $250,000 debt had blown out. But what I can tell you, and I haven't told you this, is in April this year, I got a call from my long-suffering dad, who's been with me through all of this. He's now my, he retired, he's 77 now. So retired at 65 and went full-time with my companies as our CFO accountant. He controls our accountants and so on. And he called me up in April. He goes, oh, he never asked me, you know, day-to-day questions about the accounts. He goes, oh, listen, I just wanna transfer this money from the gym, gym, whatever. 'Cause there's 12 accounts. And there was a Brunswick gym account. "Do you think we can afford to put some money across?" You've been drinking? Like, what are you talking about? He said, "Oh, it's $39 I need to transfer." I said, "Call me that for?" He goes, "Because it's the last payment on that loan. And that loan from 1994, I paid off this year." So, you know, you gotta be patient. People think it's an easy role. Or, you know, you've got so many gyms or you're traveling and seeing the world, you're rolling in money. It's not always the case. And 2005 was a real wake-up time. Remember when you came in? That we thought we're going okay and it was like, I'm gonna do some other stuff or we're gonna get hit, we're gonna sink. So that's when I started to reinvent myself and reinvent the brand even more and just keep at it.

So what were some of the things that you were sprung into action? You thought, all right, we're not doing so well. Then what does Tony do? In the mind of Tony, all right, he sees the red light that's flashing, what does he do?

Well, it's what you do and what you don't do. So what you do with any business, you have to look at reducing costs. There's two things, you either reduce your costs or you increase your income. So I'd always do a little bit of both. So I said, well, look, I'm not doing as many hours as I was. So I'll get back on the books doing some hours and filling in some gaps at weekends and evenings and things like that. I'll start working more on internal promotions to get people to bring their friends into the gym because we still didn't want to do telemarketing or mainstream advertising, that kind of thing. And just work on some new twists with the brand, some new twists with the clothing and just have a good look at everything. So you kind of put everything under the microscope and go, "Well, we're losing money on this and we're making money on that.

Well, why don't we put more energy into that?" So if someone tapped you on the shoulder in 2005 and said, "Hey, Tony, you will one day be the business partners with Arnold Schwarzenegger." Was that believable back then?

Absolutely. Absolutely, I've believed it all my life. It's a crazy thing. But when I believe in something, when I get this fixation in my mind that I'm gonna do something, I absolutely believe it. And I always have this thing, Mark, that you've gotta visualize something and believe that it's true for it to happen. And you've gotta dream really big. Because if you dream small or medium, because you're worried about what people think, well, guess what? Guess what's the most you can get? So if you dream of having a cafe with 10 chairs, that's my dream. We're never gonna have 20 chairs in your cafe, right? You're gonna have 10 and it's gonna be, well, I'm satisfied. So I've always set the bar really, really stupidly high. And I figure if I just do everything I can to achieve that and I fall a little bit short, it's still pretty big, right? Or if I fail and I don't achieve that dream, at least I have no regrets. I can die knowing I tried my absolute best. So I've always wanted to be like Arnold and to know Arnold, to work with him. And I remember going to the first, this sounds nuts. I've had this conversation with Jim Lorimer, who I could tell you about Jim Lorimer, but I met him in, I guess I went to the first Arnold in 1991. So it'd been going for about 3 years. I went with a few mates from Australia and we walked in and everyone was like, oh wow, look at all the hot chicks. Oh wow, look at all the free shit they're giving out. Oh wow, look at the, bodybuilders. And I walked in there and went, wow, I'm gonna bring this to Australia one day. This is the greatest thing I've ever seen. One day we're gonna have Arnold Classic Australia. I don't know how, when, one day I'm gonna do a professional expo. And I got to have a minute with Jim Lorimer, who was in his 60s then. And he said, I said, we got time for a question? He goes, one question, what is it? You know, he's just, I'd never met anyone like him. And I go, oh, one question, wow. When do you start working on next year's one? And he goes, Monday morning and walked off. And I was like a kid, I was probably what, 25 or so. And I'm like, so I think I wanna do this, but I knew I wasn't mature enough to put 365 days straight into something. I knew that I was not capable of working 100 days straight. I was still one of those 9 to 5, not 9 to 5, but you know, you have weekends off kind of guys. And it was some years later when I realized, okay, if you really want that dream, you gotta bite down stop messing around and commit yourself fully. So when I started FitX in 2000, was that 2011? Well, I was probably ready in about 2009, but I couldn't get the venues. Like all the things didn't line up, but I knew what I had to do. I was ready to work harder than ever I had before. And I think doing the pro show taught me that. Working, producing something with no money, no budget and no hope and still making it work. So when I went into my first expo, I remember those words from Jim Lorimer saying, you're gonna have to work for 300 days straight. And I did, you know, and then as that turned into the Arnold and I got to meet Arnold and everything else, that was the only thing I could promise him. I'll just outwork everyone. And it always stuck with me, but people think you're too old to try something. And I do a little bit of mentoring work with younger people, some older people. And of course, oh yeah, but I missed my chance. Just check this out. Jim Lorimer, just in October, he's turning 92. All right, he started the Arnold Classic when he was 62. He retired and he'd been doing, promoting some shows with Arnold for a few years on and off. And they had this idea to do the Arnold Classic. He goes, oh, I'm ready to go. What about you, Arnold? Can you keep up? And he still goes to work every day. He's still got a car and everything. He's 92. So we just had our 30th Arnold Classic. And that's what hit me. I'm like, hey, you're 90-something and you just did those 30 years. You started when you were 60, man. You built the biggest multi-sport festival in the world, 10 times bigger than the Olympic Games and started when you were 60. So just keep that in mind if ever you're feeling a little bit sorry for yourself or a little bit like you missed your chance, never.

So the Arnold Classic feels almost like a 20-year game of chess, moving the pieces very strategically, methodically and just—

For me?

Yeah, and waiting time and going, right, and seeing that big vision. I think I just wanna make a point on that. For those listening and those watching in that things don't happen overnight. That's a 20-year example that you've got to put your ducks in a row and what you do today will affect the downward stream of what happens 20 years from now.

Absolutely. Beyond that, you've got to be ready for your opportunity when it comes. It's one thing to have big dreams and ideas and ideals and all this kind of thing. But if you're not ready and you haven't done that diligence and put that thousands of hours of thought thought into something, then you're gonna get bypassed. So when I saw, to give you an idea of the strategy, when Arnold finished being governor in 2011, he said, I'm gonna take this fitness crusade worldwide. He's gonna take it to every continent. I went, ding, I've got this FitX, I've just started. I'm gonna build this, my first thought, I'm gonna build this into the biggest and best fitness expo, multi-sport expo, kind of mimicking the Arnold in the world. Pardon me. So that when he looks at Australia, I'm his only choice. I'm gonna be that guy no matter what, right? I'm not gonna miss this opportunity. And when I get that call, I'm gonna say, I'm ready. I'm so ready. I was born ready. I've been waiting for this all my life. Where do I sign up? So I put myself in that position. So he went first from the USA. He said, my first one's gonna be in Spain. And we're gonna do one in Europe. We've chosen Spain because he filmed Conan the Barbarian there, which was his breakout movie. And he had a great affinity to Spain. He lived there for 6 months working outside of Madrid. So that was a no-brainer. I'm thinking, I wonder what he's gonna do next. He said, South America is our next one. And he'd smartened up by then, him and Jim. And they decided to, and then by then Bob Larimer, Jim's son, was putting all the internationals together. And he said, well, we found this couple in these partners in Brazil, but they've already got an expo. And Arnold, he's the smartest guy I've ever met. He goes, well, that's a lot easier than doing a startup one. Why don't we just brand it? Over to be an Arnold Classic. And we've already got, how many people are they getting? And they said, well, they're getting 30,000 now. He goes, well, imagine putting my name to it, what it can be. So they turned that into an Arnold Classic and went from 30,000 to 50 or 60,000 the first year. And when he was there doing the first Brazil one, someone sent me this link of him doing his speech. He goes, the next continent we're gonna do is Australia. I'm like, my God, this is finally it. But of course I haven't heard from them, I haven't met them. I don't even know if they know who I am, but I've been putting all the pieces in place with a lot of other things behind the scenes. So I thought, okay, now's our chance. He said, oh, the next one's gonna be Australia. Oh shit, I hope they call me. I've been working all my life for it. And they did. But when they did, I was ready. So that's my point. You can have all these dreams in the world and you can, and I'll tell you to dream big and you have to, but you also gotta be ready. Don't just think, oh, I'm just gonna get lucky one day and you get the call and you get all nervous and go, I'll think about it. They're gonna go next. And I'd see it all the time when I do job interviews for people that come into my organization. They come in undercooked, underprepared, and lacking confidence. I see that as a weakness. Whereas if someone studies me, like one of the questions I ask when, 'cause I've just started getting a little bit more involved in the hiring and firing, more the hiring at the gyms. Because we got a couple of people in the system I didn't think really reflected me or my brand or didn't represent me well when I wasn't there. So I said to my managers, listen, when you do this next lot of interviews, let me sit in. And one of the first things I said, what do you know about the oldies gym? Tell me about my brand. And some of them haven't got a clue. I'm like, you didn't even fucking Google it, right? Or they dress the wrong way. They don't understand it's a gym. We're not a health club. We're not a corporate organization. So don't come in, you know, no offense, dressed like we are today. Or this one girl came in, she had so much makeup on, she looked like she was coming from a nightclub party and high heels. And then the next one came in and she was dressed well, but she looked like a fitness, not like she just had a workout sweat, but you know, she had some nice leggings or whatever and gym looking stuff and not too much, like she looked like she was gonna work in the gym. I'm like, you can start today. And the other one, you have to go home and change. It's little things like that. And we all have the ability to study psychology. And this is one thing I think I've been really pretty good at, is working out the temperature in a room, going into a meeting, being able to work out what I need to say, what they need to hear. And so that's how the whole Arnold thing started, was me being prepared. And then of course I got the call and that's another story.

So going back there in 2005, what advice perhaps would you have given yourself? What life lessons have you learned from 13 years that you thought, well, If I only did that back then, things would have been a lot easier.

Ooh, you know what? That's a really hard one, Mark, because the first thing I'd say with advice would be to tell myself to just don't quit and to remind myself to be patient, that it takes a long time to get good at shit and that you're gonna make mistakes and it's okay. So I probably wouldn't change a whole lot of stuff. You know, there's probably things that, It's always very easy in hindsight to look back, oh, I would have done that different. But if you hadn't done it different, then you probably wouldn't end up where you were because you wouldn't have made the mistakes to teach you the life lessons you needed to learn. You know, so it's a kind of really, to me, that's a really deep question because I don't know that I'd change a whole lot of things. But the advice I give myself would be to be patient and don't quit. And that's what I say to people all the time. You just summed up, 20 years in the making, yes. 30 years to pay off a shitty loan you made a mistake with, yes. You know, 21 years is what I think is a cycle to succeed in any business. You've got to get your head around 20, 21, 22 years. It really, really takes. And I often say to people now, I say, oh, look what you're doing. It's been like a 30-year apprenticeship. I'm a bit of a slow learner, but I finally got there. And I feel like now I'm just getting started. So I think back to that time in 2005, man, I was just, learning the tricks that I needed to go forward. Probably the one thing I've learned about people and staff and hiring and firing is, and one thing I probably would remind myself back then is to listen to your gut. 'Cause there's quite a lot of times, even just recently where I think we're talking about the other day where I've had some people in one of my organizations that I knew had run their race and they were no good. And they weren't, being honest, they weren't delivering what I wanted them to deliver. And they were telling a few lies and this and that. And I always have this kind of thing that my life, it's like baseball, 3 strikes, you're out. And when you're out with me, you're out, we're done. I'll delete your number. We're done, done, done. You know, if I see you in the street, hi, but that's it. I'm not gonna mentor you. I'm not gonna help you out. I'm not gonna hate on you. I'm not gonna talk behind your back 'cause I don't do that. There's nothing I wouldn't say to someone behind someone's back, wouldn't say to their face. When we're done, we're done. And every time I've given someone that fourth opportunity or that one too many, it might be 2, 3, whatever. That's every time. What did I do that for when I already knew, when I already had the evidence and the feeling and the gut on this and I've let other people influence it. And I had one of my CEOs, one of my general managers with a particular employee go, oh, come on, you're gonna give him one more chance because damage control and this and that. And I go, no. I know this is no good. This is gonna hurt our organization. He's gotta go. And I let them, I'm not blaming them because I allowed it. I let them say, talk me back. And then 3 months later, I'm like, oh, what did I do that for? So going back to 2005, it's that. It's knowing when to say no and when to cut people. When to say, you know what? I've brought you from the street. I've given you a million opportunities. I've given you everything. And you're not ready for this. It's time to go. And it might be a business that you've put money into where you just, your gut says, you know what? You're flogging a dead horse, kill it. It might be a property, it might be gym, might be investment, might be a relationship. You know, it might be an employee thing. It's not just for employees. It's that gut thing. You know, so probably I'd tell myself that, just listen to your gut. 'Cause you're right more times than you'd know. Absolutely.

That's definitely good advice. I know I have the same thing. When, you know, you always listen to your gut. Well, 95% of what neurotransmitters, serotonin at least, is made in your gut. So they call it the second brain for a reason. And you know, that is more than just a gut feeling. But just kind of switching a little bit, you spoke about Arnold before. When I think about the boyhood dream, the first thing, that person that comes to mind is you. So do you mind just taking us through that journey of, you know, I know you saw Arnold on TV, Before that, were you training? Were you lifting weights or was it literally—

No, 'cause I was a kid. I was only a little kid. So I was like, I don't know, I was either 13 or 14, right? But this guy came on TV. It was, I think it was the Mike Walsh Show. Anyone else old enough to remember that? It was like a, yeah, here we go. It was like a variety house, like a Conan O'Brien or a Letterman, you know, the Australian version. And I think it was him anyway. And I remember being at home And my dad was in the room. I can't remember brothers, sisters, whatever. But I remember seeing this guy and I'm like, what the hell? What is that? You know, it was Arnold. And he was flogging a book, promoting a book called Arnold: The Education of a Bodybuilder. You know, and he was in Australia doing a tour. And I was like, wow, what is that? And my dad's like, oh, he's a bodybuilder. Listen up. So I listened to the interview and I saw not just the muscles. I mean, I wanted to be him straight away. I'm like, I wanna have muscles like that. And I'm, dad, "Hey, how do you get like that?" And he goes, "Probably need to work out and you're a bit tubby. You probably wanna learn about nutrition and, you know, find out." But there's no, you can't Google it. Like back then it was like, you had to go to the library or whatever. I said, "Well, pardon me, my birthday or Christmas is coming up. Can I get that book? In fact, I don't want anything else in the world. I just want that book. Put all the other money, whatever you got into the other kids, just please, or I'll go find it." And they said, "No, we'll get you the book for birthday or Christmas." 'Cause my birthday's in November. Christmas, December, so I know it was around then. Anyway, all I wanted was that book. But when I look and I go, "Dad, what's that thing in his arms?" And he goes, "Oh, they're veins." I'm like, "Wow." 'Cause he had this paper-thin skin. You know, it was Arnold in the late '70s. He was just as good as he got. I was like, "Wow." But it wasn't just the muscles that impressed this young impressionable boy in this little country town. It was his confidence and his charisma. And the fact that he'd left Austria and taken on America. I'm like, I'm gonna get out of this town. I knew, it was amazing to me looking back because I always knew I didn't want to be the same as everyone else when I was a little kid. I never bought what they were selling with education, university qualifications. Always knew I didn't want to work 9 to 5 or work in a thing with fluorescent lights and those little shelves. I saw a picture of that when I was a kid and I'm like, you serious? You're gonna do your whole life doing that? All the money in the world? No, I'm smarter than that. I knew, but I didn't know what it was. And it was that day, this light went off and I'm like, I'm gonna be a bodybuilder and a promoter and a gym owner. That's it. And my poor parents are like, but you know, we've gone without so you could go to university. I said, that's nice. You've got 3 other kids, put all the money into them. I don't even want pocket money anymore. I'm gonna hustle. I'm gonna work this shit out. Give me the book. And it's funny, 'cause you've been in my office, you'll see I've collected everything from my whole life all over there, except for that book. 'Cause I've read it so many times. That it fell to pieces. And I end up, I wish I hadn't, if I threw it out, 'cause I want a book. Because it felt it was in so many, but didn't just fall to pieces, fell in 100 pieces, you know? And it was just life-changing for me. So I had this thing from the first time I saw Arnold, I'm gonna be like him. And then, you know, then that escalated. So I wanna meet the guy one day. I read his book, I did bodybuilding, got all jacked up and, you know, became a gym. I'd like to meet Arnold. So that first time I went to the Arnold Classic in '91, you could pay an extra $50 and get the VIP experience, have a picture with him. And I've still got the picture, it's up in my gym somewhere of me meeting him. Now it wasn't very memorable for him 'cause I was in a queue and this guy pushed me. I still remember, he catches you and he goes, how you doing? Fantastic. Click. And he pushes you again. Someone else catches you. And back then there was no digital. So the guy passes the Polaroid picture to the guy that pushes you out the door. As you go out the door, there's this big black guy who's the size of the door, gave me a picture frame, this cardboard picture frame. And in one hand I've got a frame, the other hand I've got this thing, I'm shaking like mad, hoping that the picture is gonna turn out and it did. I'm like, I met Arnold, whoa. I put it in a little folder in the album and took it back and it was my most cherished possession. So then of course you want more. I'm like, well, it'd be cool to actually meet him, you know, and for him just to know, you know, I think the next ambition was for him just to know who I was. Just so one day he said, hey Tony, or what, you know, like that would be the next level, not even a friendship, just an acknowledgement of, okay, this is next. So all my life I had this, I wanna meet him, I wanna get a picture with him. I wanna get to know him. And then that happened and, you know, and it escalated a bit more and then, when we met and became business partners, well, I'd like to be friends, you know, I'd like to smoke a cigar with him and go to restaurants and travel the world with him. And that's what happened. So it all started from just this little kid with a big dream.

Amazing, absolutely amazing. You touched on something there about growing up in Bendigo. Now we've spoken about parenting before. You've got 4 kids growing up in the suburbs. You grew up in Bendigo, which is probably a very different, and also at the time, a very different upbringing than what most kids possibly who are watching this might be comfortable in their suburbian kind of home and suburbian life. What impact did growing up in a small country town in, what was it, 1970 or so?

Yeah, yeah, well, I was born in '64. So it was sort of, you know, I grew up in the '70s, I guess, you know? And so what's the question?

So what impact did growing up on you, what do you feel that, what impact did it have on you growing up in that town? And is there something out of that that you feel kids today are missing? I mean, is it a contributing factor for that, you know, that famous Tony Doherty iron will, you know, how has it changed you? How has it developed you?

No, I don't think so because I always had it. You know, I think if you've got it, you've got it. Or if you make a decision to be that person, to be obsessed and to chase your dreams, you've got it with kids today or back then. Growing up in a country town, all that did was make me want to get the hell out of there. Maybe, you know, I'd see everyone when I was a kid, I'd see, you know, on a black and white TV and I'd see pictures of New York. I remember the start of Disneyland because it was like we had two channels. We didn't have Seven, Nine, Ten and the ABC. In the country towns you had the ABC and then this hybrid of the other three commercial stations. So we had like Disneyland, Gilligan's Island, these kinds of shows. You know, there was no Fox, there was no digital, nothing. No internet. So I'd see pictures of the USA as a kid. I just want to get out and see pictures in New York City and pictures of Paris and London on TV. And all I wanted to do was to get out of this country town and to see the great cities of the world. I just always knew. But I think if I had grown up in a city, then I would have just probably not had to have got out of anywhere, but I probably would have turned out the same. And I think, I don't think kids today, like my kids miss out so much on growing up in the country. We lived in a house, we didn't live on a farm. We lived in a regular street in a suburban thing. But I think what the kids don't have today is the freedoms that we had. You know, like we rode our bikes to school. Mum never had a car. I never ever once in my life got dropped off at school. And I wanted to work from a really early age. So I think when I was like 11, I had a paper run. So I get my pushbike at like 4:30 in the morning, go and pick up the newspapers, pack them into those little saddlebags you have on your bike. And go and deliver papers before school. Then I'd go to school, then I'd go clean like a butcher shop or something at night or work in a hardware. I always wanted to work. When I was like, I think I got my first like actual job after the paper run, like when I was 13 or 14. And when we weren't working and trying to make some bucks because your mom and dad didn't have a lot of money, we'd play on the street. And I think that's what Arnold's got me doing worldwide is that, you know, we'd play football or cricket depending what time of the year it was on the street until dark, until mum would say, "Dinner's ready." And she'd be yelling and screaming, you know, and you'd be waiting for that last little bit where you'd hit the ball and you think, shit, we're not gonna find that ball, it actually is dark. You know, to the last, remember that? People who grew up like that, there was nothing on TV, there was no phones or anything. And you rode your bike everywhere. So it was free. You know, I used to have a slug gun and I'd put that on my little dragster bike and ride around with a gun. You know, no one batted an eye. I'd go shoot some birds or something or targets and then come home, you know. And growing up like that, it was the ultimate freedom because, you know, the adults weren't terrified of the stranger danger and all this sort of thing. There wasn't this age of, I don't know, we've just become such a safe society. And I think, That's what kids have missed out on. You know, it's just been able to be kids. They're just forced to grow up so fast and have these adult understandings and adult values. Like my kids tell me stuff, you know, my 10-year-old knows stuff that I'm like, how do you know that? Oh, you know, too much. But she's got iPad and I don't hold back with that stuff with my kids. I bought them all phones as soon as they could work out how to use a phone, why not? And then teach them how to use it responsibly. Rather than demonize something. I've always had reverse psychology with parenting because my parents were very, very straight-laced and don't do this and don't do that, you know? And it was all about control. And that was it. That was how they were brought up. They didn't know any different. I mean, they wanted the best for us. But in doing that and having a rebellious kind of addictive, obsessed nature, I wanted to do everything that they told me not to do. I'm like, that must be good if you tell me not to do it. Right, so with my kids, I've had a complete opposite approach. And if you want to talk about education of kids, we can go into a little rave about that because I've got really strong views about that and working, having gyms, right? You know, you guys know being in the industry, you meet people from all walks of life. I study psychology like a science. I've never been to school. Well, I got thrown out of school when I was 16, but I never went to university or anything, but I could probably hold my own with most psychologists that I've met and interviewed because I ask a lot of questions. I'm very curious and I learn as much as I can about behavior of people. So education is one of my little ticks that I watch. And I'm not a big believer in pushing kids to do university. And in the US, for example, they say, you know, if you don't go to college, you've got nothing. If you don't get those letters after your name, you've got nothing to fall back on. You're not going to be anything. You look at all the people that are the leaders of the biggest organizations in the world, most of them are either dropouts or self-educated or whatever. And then you look at what's available to the kids today. It's everywhere. Is it here? Look at this. Every library in the world is in your pocket. This is amazing. I just love, I'm almost envious of my kids because if I wanted to find shit out when I was a kid, man, it was an effort. You have to go to a library or get a magazine and do some mail order thing and wait for it to come to get the book to find out what you want to know. They Google it. One of my girls is the most unbelievable research person I've ever met. I say one word to her, she's got facts, figures, opening times, prices, branches. Be looking for something to buy, shop. She goes, oh, such and such, only 2 suburbs away, closes at 6. They've got 3 in your size. And if we get there, leave now, we'll be there in 14 minutes if the traffic's good. Okay, my PA can't even do that. I mean, it's crazy. So back to the education thing, I think that we've pushed kids so hard and made them feel like they're a loser or they're a drop if they don't. And I had this enormous pressure from my family saying, you know, we've saved up for you to go to uni. I'm like, I don't need that. And they only wanted the best for me because they didn't have those opportunities. But I think it's gone too far the other way. So I watch people all the time. And I just say to my kids, I want you to find something that you love doing. That you're passionate about, right? And then we'll work out how to make a living out of it. If that involves going to uni, I'll back you all the way. But if that's not for you, I'll back you all the way, whatever. I've got this one family I watched, they're an Albanian family. And I watched these kids grow up. We had a shop and they lived kind of next door. Anyway, long story short, they're always really well-mannered kids. Their dad had made a lot of money. I don't know how, it doesn't matter, but he had, properties and stuff. I've never seen him work, but he owns a couple of pubs and he's got buildings and properties everywhere. So he said to his 3 sons, he goes, you know what? Don't work. I've put enough money away, whatever. When you turn 18, I'll buy you a Mercedes-Benz. Yeah, hang out, meet chicks, have fun, party, go places with your mates, travel, see the world, whatever. Don't worry about school. And I think he was using reverse psychology. He's just laid back about it. He goes, if you want to do that, do it. But No pressure. So turn 18, they get a Mercedes-Benz. So the first one, he turned 18, he goes, Dad, I wouldn't mind going to uni. I think I wanna do law. Now he's a corporate lawyer. The second one's an engineer and the third one's an architect. And I've never seen kids with less pressure. They've got mates who force their kids into university and two of them are doing rehab and one's dead. You know, because they were under so much pressure, they just turned to drugs and one overdosed because he was just, going so hard because he rebelled so badly against what his family forced him to do. And you stop and think, hmm, there's something in that. Why are we so obsessed with pushing our kids this American way to say, boom, we're the greatest country in the world. You wanna make it here, you're gonna make it, right? And if you're obsessed with doing something, you're gonna be obsessed, you're gonna make it work. So I've got kind of, and I don't know if I'm right. I just know that I've seen a lot of shit. And the majority of kids I've seen forced into private schools and forced into university have grown up to be failures and losers. And even the guys I went to school with, the really brainy ones who were just at this academic pathway. I went to school reunion a couple of years ago. I'm like, really? I'm not trying to judge, but look at this. One guy, I remember he was a genius. He went to the school I went to, right? Then he went to teacher's college. Then he got a job back at the school. He's still there. Well, you haven't fucking left.

Do you have any parenting mottos or is that about it in summary?

What do you mean by mottos? Like little sayings?

Yeah, little sayings or things that you live by. It's like you said, you know, you're pretty free with the iPads and stuff like this.

Oh man, I'm just free. I don't lie to them. You know, the girls, I've got one son, three daughters. The son, I'm probably a little bit more truthful than the girls because there's stuff I don't want to tell them, but I'm really honest with them. I don't pretend that the world's a beautiful place. I don't sugarcoat things. I don't mollycoddle them or wrap them in cotton wool or anything else. I encourage them to play outside, encourage them to make good decisions. I encourage them to communicate and have open channels with me and make them understand they can tell me absolutely anything. I've always kind of said this thing. If it comes from you, you tell me something, if you screw up, if it comes from you, you can't get in trouble. But if the school calls or the police knock on the door and you haven't told me, we've got a big problem. So that's kind of kept the channels open. So it's an evolving thing, you know, like some of you guys have got kids, you know, it's hard.

Do you think in a way that kids, you know, going back to where you were in Bendigo, very isolated, very just, you know, focused, this is the goal, this is the path, have to get out every day. I think kids are more distracted today with the iPhones and the iPads. I mean, it's a double-edged sword, right? They can research anything they want, but at the same time they get distracted and kind of pulled in different directions, possibly from their calling of what they really want to be doing.

No, no, I don't. I think there's always gonna be temptation. There's always gonna be, you're gonna get led astray with or without technology, right? I think that kids, if they use it properly, fantastic. What does concern me is kids are inactive. This is where this fitness crusade comes into play. And this is what I'm getting finally in front of government agencies and Visit Victoria and Sport and Recreation. And we're addressing on Monday, 41 different sporting leaders are coming to hear me talk about our fitness crusade and how we can change lives. And what concerns me is that kids are more inactive than they've ever been before, right? Because of their phones and their iPads and their PlayStations. They're not out, so you don't see kids riding their bike. You don't see them playing on the street. And it's not just a safety thing. Their engagement in sport and doing something to be fit is at an all-time low and obesity is at an all-time high. And I think that's, way worse than seeing some bad shit on the iPad. I mean, they've got Netflix. They can watch someone getting their head cut off if they go on the right channel. You know, like they're not as insulated as they were, but there's different temptations. So when I was a kid, you know, we were arsonists, vandals, thieves, you know, we'd shoot things, we'd set fire to things, we'd steal things. And, you know, kids aren't doing that. They're doing dumb shit online. It's dumb shit either way. Kids do dumb shit. Right? So you've got to try and help them to understand the consequences of dumb shit and to make good choices and to not be that one who's on the edge all the time. You know, so I think that there's more good than bad with technology because they've got the world at their feet. You know, like I've always said this thing about traveling. I think, shit, imagine when I was a kid, if I could have actually researched some of these places, I wouldn't have been, I think 60 countries. I probably would have been to 100 by now. If I'd had access to that stuff, you know, cause I had to wait for it to come on TV, but you know what I mean? So you can look at it either way, but I don't think it's negative. It's just society in the world, everything evolves and kids evolve. They're way smarter than we were. Kids are so smart, man.

Yeah, absolutely. Switching gears just a tiny bit. What's been your biggest or most challenging business moment? Did you want to quit and how do you get through it? Cause I mean, business isn't always obviously smooth sailing.

Well, I don't think I've got a most challenging moment. I find that question really hard to answer. What's your most challenging moment? 'Cause I don't know. Oh, there's been a, we sit here all day and I'll tell you 100 challenging moments I've never told anyone. There's so many, but did I ever want to quit? Now this is something you all need to know and anyone listening needs to hear, is that we all feel like quitting. Every single one of us has days where you just don't want to leave the house. I can't deal with anyone. I don't want to have to face that problem. I don't want to have to deal with this stress. I don't want to have to see that person. I don't want to have that confrontation. For all of us, every single day. But I just never did quit. And I think anyone says, oh no, I never want to quit. Bullshit. You know, we all have tough days and it's how you deal with it that's going to define your success in life. It's by being saying, no matter what, I'm gonna show up. I'll take the punches. I'll take the hits. I'll take the hard days. And I look back and I've had so many hard days. I did a piece on it the other day and just said, well, I probably wouldn't change it because it's made me tougher and stronger and learn me to know me and my brand and what I'm good at and what I'm not good at and what I failed at, I've learned from and so on. And it's all okay. But the lowest point in business, I mean, whenever you lose a shitload of money and other people suffer, That's a low. Yeah, I remember early on, like one of the pro shows and it was 2004, in fact, a bit of a Rain Man with details and numbers and names and times. And it's good for names though, 'cause I remember everyone's names. So someone comes in the gym after 15 years, this guy came in yesterday. I'm like, Enio. He goes, well, I haven't been here since 2005 or 2006. And it's a weird name. And I remembered it. So I've always had this thing with, Everyone's got a little something, right? With memory. And so it was 2004, we had the Australian Pro Bodybuilding and it was like Chris Cormier, Dexter Jackson, Marcus Ruhl, fantastic King Kamali, Craig Titus in this lineup. It was the best lineup we'd ever had. And I broke even or lost money on it every year. It's just a little story. Just understand sometimes you get kicked in, you know, where it hurts. And, It was the best lineup ever. And if you Google the prejudging of that show, it's one of the most watched videos ever. 'Cause this guy Kamali and Titus hated each other's guts. And the internet had just become popular with, remember those forums, the bodybuilding forums? And they were going on these forums, giving each other death threats and everything, right? And it gets funnier because when they're on the way here, Titus left from Vegas and Kamali left from New Jersey. He flew from Newark in New Jersey to LA. Titus flew from Vegas to LA, and it was United Flight UA94, I think, coming into Melbourne. And Kamali was on the plane first. Titus flew in from Vegas, was running late. He walks down the aisle of the plane with his ticket 29C, 29C. The plane's full. He turns, there's one seat left. It's next to Kamali and his wife, and they had to sit together for 14 hours. And these guys were like, restraining orders, death threats, everything. So it was fantastic. And I'd done this postcard of them facing off at each other, Kamali versus Titus, you know, something about death and all this stuff. And Titus ended up going to jail for murder. So he was a genuine nutcase. He's doing 56 years, true story. Anyway, that one. So after the show, I'd finally made some money. I'd made like $25,000 or something. I was married at the time. We had two little kids. I'd said to Amanda, after this show, 'cause we've gone without for so long, we just bought our house. And so I said, we're gonna go on a holiday. We're gonna go to Fiji or somewhere like that and have a break. And we made some money finally. And there was two vans of athletes went to the airport. I was driving the second one. 'Cause back then I used to sell the tickets, cut up the popcorn, drive the van, set up backstage, everything. I still do to a point, but not as bad as that. Everything. So I was driving one of the vans. So I got there behind the other one. I walked in the airport. You know when you just get a bad feeling? Something's wrong. And I went to the United counter and they're all still standing. I'm thinking, why aren't they on the plane? There's something wrong. So I said, what's up? They said, well, the lady won't let us on the plane. Long story short, their ticket, the type of ticket I'd got them, which was a cheaper ticket, said they had to be in Australia for 5 nights and they'd only been there 3 or 4 nights. And one of their wives had been extremely rude to the lady at the counter. Like talk down to you as Americans sometimes do. And it'd been very confrontational. And the lady got her backup and she goes, you know what? I just looked at the conditions on your ticket. You're not getting on that plane today. I'll go talk to her. Mr. Charming, right? Psychologist, all this shit. Excuse me, ma'am. I said, I apologize for anyone that's spoken badly to you. It's this group of people that, you know, hard few days, whatever I said. She goes, yeah. Been through that with that rude lady. They're not getting on the plane today. Check your ticket. Yeah, but is there something we can do? Like, I'm really sorry. She goes, yep, what you can do is if you want to get them on a flight today, there's 7 or 8 of them, whatever it was, you buy 7 or 8 one-way tickets to LA on your credit card. You've got 15 minutes. Whoa, whoa, whoa, please, ma'am. Anyway, so I called my travel agent. He's like, ah, don't worry, I know the the lady that runs all of United, I'll call her. So he calls her, she's at a barbecue. How dare you call me at the weekend? I've already had a call from my operator about your rude group. We're done. He goes, brother, I think we've got a big problem. Anyway, I went back to the counter, I go, please, I said, I'm begging, is there something we can do? She goes, nothing we can do. And I put my hand, I still remember I put my hand up on the thing and there was a strip of aluminium that was really sharp and it tore my finger and I'm bleeding like hell. I'm gonna look, I won't even sue you about your faulty counter. You just help me with the poop. She goes, get first aid, get a Band-Aid, whatever. Next. Oh, we're gone. Anyway, I got down to 7 minutes, 5 minutes, 3 minutes. She goes, it's gonna take me at least 3 minutes to process those cards. If you want them on the plane, this is it. So I pulled out my credit card, which I hate using. And I bought 7 one-way tickets to Ireland, it cost $18,000. So this family holiday, this successful event, the best promoter in the free world just did his balls at the last moment. So that was a, you know, I remember driving back, hey, that trip, no, not going. That was a hard one. But you know, I've still got the same travel agent because he ended up sending me half because he accepted that he'd made a mistake and we'd both rolled the dice and I've spent over a million bucks with him since because of his loyalty in that situation. So I learned something about a good person and I learned something about how to deal with shit. But I've got 100 stories like that. Wow. Bigger, better, worse. Incredible.

I mean, the fitness industry has changed quite considerably. If you go back to the 1980s, the heyday, the Frank Columbos, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Pumping Iron, that whole movement where it just kind of had a different feel to it to today where you kind of see Lycra and fluoro colors in the gym and who knows what, Instagram, people on their phones, social media, glute exercises, who knows what else. What—

You just named all the things you hate, right? Correct.

I mean, apart from those, has there been any other, I suppose, observations that you've made? And also on that, how has it affected the Doherty's brand?

Well, first for the fitness industry, I try and see the positive in everything. It's like a sickness. I think it's great. You know, because back then you look at pro bodybuilding, back then there was only 10 pro bodybuilders in the world. Now we've got 10 categories with thousands of pros who've got an opportunity to make a living and see the world and promote themselves. And as much as it sucks to see people in the gyms doing their selfies and having 5 and 10-minute sets between, rest between their sets, that's their trip. You know, but there's a whole lot more people doing fitness than ever before. There's a whole lot more excitement. Fitness people have become kind of celebrities in the real world because of their working out and their bodies and their Instagram followings. And probably going back when I first started doing the expos, I was like, who are these dickheads? These Insta-famous people. And I'm like, shit, they sell a lot of tickets. Who can we get next? I've just embraced them. I'm just like, man, it is what it is. If I'm working out and someone's on a bench, playing on their phone, on Instagram and taking selfies and not doing exercise and I want the bench, that pisses me off. But being the abrupt kind of upfront person I am, I normally politely say to them, look, you know, do your thing, I'm not gonna attack you about that, but can you sit over there and do it or finish your set? But I think there's more good than bad in all of it, because, you know, we've got an opportunity now to have more people interested in fitness. There's all you guys, making livings as trainers that you wouldn't have before if it wasn't for the popularity and the internet and that side of it. So you gotta take the good with the bad. And I think for the most part, that was kind of a golden age of in bodybuilding specifically. But I think of Arnold and I've talked to him a lot about this, about his fitness crusade. And when he started 50 years ago, he started traveling to promote first his books that I saw on TV and then later on to promote his courses and then his competitions and then to promote his movies. And no one promoted better than him because he learned his lessons from bodybuilding. So when he went to promote movies, he was the first movie star to go to every single state. He'd go to 52 states for an opening and for promotion and to meet the people. And he still does. His work ethic is ridiculous, which is why he's had the success that he's had. And same with politics and everything he's attacked. He's been so obsessed obsessive about it, but he's had great success. And he talks to me about the early days, you know, where he couldn't find a single gym in a city with gym equipment, even a pulldown machine. And he says, look at it now, every single hotel in the world's got dumbbells and treadmills. Every fire station, police station in the US has got their own gym. Every high school, every university has got facilities like my Brunswick gym. Like, you know, you've seen the squat racks and the whole set of everything. Gym in every school in the world. And there's nowhere you can't go now, you can't not find a gym. And that's happened during his fitness crusade. And him starting that whole pumping iron thing and bodybuilding, make it popular with his TV, has contributed to that enormously. But now everything that the Instagrammers are doing is also contributing to it. So everyone's making a buck, you know, there's more studios, there's more personal trainers, but there's more people training. I think the bottom line is, is more people getting fit than ever before. And we've got a chance to impact them. But my passion now is to influence the kids to want to be fit and feel good about themselves. And all this political correctness of, oh, you don't have to have a good body to feel bad about yourself. It's okay to be fat. No, it's not. You know, it's not okay to feel bad about yourself. And a small percentage probably think it's great to be morbidly obese or fat and walk around And the rest of it, for the most of the kids growing up that aren't being given the license to feel good about themselves, it concerns me. So I want to see kids get active and play more sport and get them into the gyms and all that. So long answer, but I think it's all good. Yeah.

So I suppose in terms of the brand, 'cause I mean, Dougherty's, it seems that the brand has absorbed, I suppose, part of that culture. 'Cause if you can contrast it to say the 1980s Arnold Schwarzenegger, kind of mainly a male centric gym environment now, you've got a lot more females in the gym. So really, I suppose the bottom line is bigger turnovers for gyms, really bigger turnovers.

I mean, how it's impacted Dougherty's is that the social media and the people taking selfies in my gym that tag my gym, make it more popular, make more people come. You know, we've got more women coming than ever before. We've got more kids, more older people come, more mainstream people come because we, you can't, and this is you too, Mark, you can't, just knock it and go, yeah, but all these Instagram, because we both use it as a tool. So I can't say I hate that part of it, 'cause I love it, man. I'm all over social media. I think it's fantastic. And we've been able to use just certain hashtags in social media to break down some misconceptions about our brand. Because one thing is it's just for meatheads and you gotta be super muscular to walk in there. So we started this hashtag, #HomeAwayFromHome. Fitness for everyone, this kind of thing. And it's broken down some barriers where more people are comfortable to walk in the door. So I can't say, I hate people doing selfies, but I'm gonna use it to, you know. So I just try and find the positive in it and go, okay, well, how can we use that to our advantage? How can we embrace that kind of technology and make it popular? And so, okay, while you're here, can you hashtag home away from home, Australian Mecca? So we've got all these little hashtags that we tell people to do. And it's just, I think it's great. So it's impacted the brand in a good way.

On social media, what platforms are you on personally versus like Doherty's? Do you split it up? Do you have an ad agency for say Doherty's?

I've never had an ad agency for anything in my whole life. I've got a publicist for the Arnold. I've got a full-time, Australia's best publicist, Max Markson works for me full-time 3 months of the year. And I've got him on a retainer the rest of the time. But as far as ad agencies, I don't even know what they are.

So what do you do in terms of your promotions for say Doherty's? So in terms of the content that comes out of, say, the Tony Doherty pages on Instagram and Facebook, that's all you, correct?

That's all me. Well, yeah, mostly Instagram. Just back to that, I hardly use Facebook at all. I'll transfer some stuff from Instagram just to keep it alive. The truth of it is, I get— there's so much more interaction on Instagram. When I talk to the young people, all the people that work for me and the kids and, you know, people that are really active on it, it's all Instagram. Instagram's just kicking butt. It really is. I still use the other stuff, but only to drive people to the Instagram page really. So my personal brand, I do a lot of Instagram stuff. I do that all myself. I don't plan it. It's just spontaneous. I do a thing every day, most days called Real Talk, where I just blurt out those 15-second things about life. And that's having about, if I do it daily, if I travel, it drops off a little bit, but I'm I've been back for 2 months now and it's built right up. I'm getting 4,000 views on my story every day. And I might do 20 stories. They all get 3,500 to 4,500 views a day, which is like 10% of the people that follow me, which is a really high interaction rate. And with the gyms and with the Arnold and with some other stuff that I do, I think there's about 8 different Instagram pages that we control. So I have someone I've got a film guy like you do that does my video stuff for my personal one and for the Arnold and for the Dohertys. And then I've got a couple of people that are allowed to post, but I'm really careful with it because if you get the wrong person posting the wrong message or the wrong image of the brand, it can just undo years of work in minutes, literally. So I'm still kind of controlling with that sort of stuff. But we have meetings once a week where we plan what we're gonna do for the next week or two. And then if I go missing, at least you've got a plan. But we've just got so like thousands, hundreds of thousands of pictures and files of people who have trained there over the years and stories and testimonials and stuff like that. So we just kinda say, okay, what, why are we doing it? That's always the question with the social media stuff. Is it to get more meatheads? If that's the case, we put up more pictures of Ronnie Coleman or someone trying at the gym. Is it to get more regular people? Then we do interviews with regular people talking about regular things and say, in fact, we just did this series. I've only released a couple of them where we had, we interviewed 15 members that have been there for more than 20 years. Can you imagine that? I mean, our renewal rate at our gym, I know in Brunswick is over 70%. The industry runs on 15%. That's pretty good, huh? And that's because we look after people, becomes part of their life. But when you interview someone about what the gym's meant to their life over 20 years, it's moving. It's unbelievably amazing because this has become the most stable thing in their life. Where marriages have failed, parents have died, kids have dropped out, fallen off the wagon, whatever. Where there's one guy interviewed and he'd been through a really rugged divorce. He came to the gym because he wanted to kill himself. He said, I've got to do something for myself. I'm going mad. He'd moved back in with his mom and dad at 40. 40, kids, everything. And he really lost his mind. He come and joined the gym and I didn't know this whole story until recently. And that became part of his life. Then he met his second wife, his kids grew up, he's now a grandfather, he's got a very successful business. He travels, he's followed all these places I tell him to go to and so on. But it's been the most stable thing of his life. So now I'm using it to try and say to people, most people don't go to the gyms to change their bodies or to get in shape. That's part of it. But they, well, with our gym, it's different with transformation stuff, but with our gym, they go there to cope. And it becomes such an important part of people's life where, you know, I think years ago people had churches before TV and social media. That's why religion was popular, not because of the God factor, that's part of it, but most of it was the socialization and just the fact that they had somewhere to congregate and to meet. Now we've got groups, you know, and apps, but gyms, Gym's a really, really magic place. I'm a gym guy, unashamedly, I hang out at my gym. I can't wait to get there every day. I get excited when I talk about it. And I think that shines through. So then I guess long answer is that's kind of the message we try and get out with our social media. It's for everyone. You haven't got to come and be Mr. Olympia, but if you want to, we can take you there. But if you just want to come to get away from your crazy life or to cope, it's a big part of it. I did a podcast this week on mental health. The importance of exercise for mental health. It's the greatest cure for depression. You know that people are doing it really, really hard. If they could just exercise every day and clear their minds, what a difference it makes. We all know it, right? You know when you don't train for a while and you go, "I don't miss it." It's when you start again, you go, "Oh, I didn't realize how much I missed it." It's one of those things. It's like if you've been in shape and you get fat, you go, "Oh yeah, it's nothing." Then you start to get in shape again, you go, "Oh, fuck." How'd I ever let myself go? You know, it's a funny thing, you only notice it on the way back.

To circle back to what you were talking about before about the real talk. So they're just, for those who don't know, and add in anything that I missed, but they're just those 15-second holding the Instagram down and saying something to the camera and just doing a sequence of those. Is that how you do it?

Yeah.

And in that, what effect would you say that has been doing that regularly has had on, you know, either entries into Doherty's Gym or—

Oh, nothing to do with Doherty's Gym. Nothing to do with that. No, it's just my personal Oh shit, this is more to do with, um—

So that's not having a direct impact on, uh, like memberships or anything like that, just because that's your personal crusade kind of thing? Is there anything, uh, that you're doing for Dougherty's that's similar to that, or is it just more Um, well, 20 years left.

Every minute, you know, that's my thing.

Amazing. Yeah, I hope you've been enjoying this interview. We'll be right back after a short break. Stay tuned to our YouTube where there's going to be more great parts and episodes coming up from the Wolf's Den. See you soon. Welcome back to the Wolf's Den. My name is Mark Ottobre. My guest today is Tony Doherty.

We're going to pick back up from where we left off.

Tony, can you tell me about what the differences are between running Dohertys versus running the Arnold to Classic?

Well, major differences because they're completely different companies. Different budgets, different realities, yeah, completely different. There's no, in fact, there's no similarities at all.

So how does one go from running, you know, 6 gyms to then just being launched into the event space? I mean, are there similar skills and tools that you've accumulated? How did you, you know, just run such a big event? I mean, it'd be like learning a whole different school set.

You know, and I think that's what people have to realize. You don't just go out and run a huge gym, and you don't just go out and run a huge event like an Arnold Sports Festival. You know, I started running bodybuilding shows back in the late '80s, and that grew, as I said earlier, into running the first time ever Australia's pro show. And then that grew into a pro-am, and then that grew into a small expo, and the small expo grew into a bigger expo. So I just learned along the way, developed the skills that I needed. But then when it went from being FitEx Sport and Fitness Expo into the Arnold Sports Expo, it changed dramatically because there were so many more factors with publicity and working with the world's most famous person. And then personally, the way it affected me most is probably with the travel, because before I could go away once a year and still be successful as a bodybuilding or an expo promoter. But now I travel with Arnold at least 6 times a year, sometimes more. More. Plus, for me to do my research, I've been to every fitness expo in the world, from FIBO to BodyPower around the world, to shows in India and China and everywhere. So the last 5 years, the biggest thing that's changed is the travel. But comparing the gym and the Arnold, it's completely different. I do have a couple of staff that swing between the two with graphics, and my IT guy and my graphics girl both sort of work on both businesses, but the others are just worlds apart.

So do you still run Dohertys, or do you have someone run majority of Dohertys? Is that kind of, you know, handball to—

When I say I don't run it, I'm still kind of hands-on. So basically I manage my managers. I've got one particular guy, Andrew Iskander, who runs effectively 3 of them. As a manager, he goes 2 days a week at each one out of the 3, and I meet with I meet with him 2, 3 times a week for a good hour where we sit down and go through a little bit of planning, a little bit of strategy. Mostly for me it's yes and it's encouragement, but then if I feel that they're going the wrong way with the brand or whatever, then I'll just say, no, that's not the way I want to go and this is why. And then just with the hiring, as I said earlier, I'm just getting a little bit more hands-on on who we allow into the organization because they've got to understand what we are what we do. And then with the growth of the business, I'm looking to bring someone on next to help me to expand the license and franchise side of it, because that's a different person than someone that's hands-on running a gym. But so I'm still pretty hands-on. I don't get around to all of them as much as I'd like. And people say, what would you like if you wish for one more thing? It'd be like 28 hours in a day and 8 days in a week, because I just can't fit this shit in. This is the biggest problem I've got. I never have a day off. I just go, go, go, go, go.

And discussing just the structure of your teams, I mean, how big is the team for Dougherty's versus the team for the Arnold Classic?

Well, you can't compare because each of the gyms got about 10 employees. There's 7 gyms, so there's like 70 or 80 with the part-timers with Dougherty's, and the Arnold team is 6. So it's a very tight-knit team, but they do an extraordinary job because we don't have the budget some of the that the big expos have. So a comparable expo in Australia might have 20 people working on it full-time. We've got 6. So they're really committed. They're really married to the job. But it's a good role. And I think what I've probably found with the popularity of my brands, with both of them, is if I advertise a position, I've got a line a mile long of people wanting to be part of it. And then once you sit through them and work out who's in it for the right reason, then you've got a line half a mile long, you know. So we do get to sort of handpick the people that come in, and we're getting better at that all the time. But that's, that's also something you don't just get good at. You're gonna—

so the hardest thing about, I suppose, running the Arnolds is the travel personally, but I suppose on a professional— what do you think the hardest thing is on running the Arnolds?

Meeting the budget, because the cost this year will it'll be like $2.4 million to put on and we're not funded at all. So I'll start with a blank slate and go, "Shit, how are we gonna do that?" Every year I'm like, "Ahh!" It's a nightmare. Because the convention center, for example, cost me $700,000 to rent for a weekend.

Wow.

Jesus. I know, right? And you get 4 fucking walls and a roof and that's it. There's no carpet, there's no no power. They're so rude, they turn the power meter on, they charge me an extra 10% and then take the power out of the extra 10% and give me the balance back. So you don't even get power. 700 grand, you don't get a friggin' light. It's hideous. Then if I want to sell food there, I have a loss of revenue fee. Well, so you're affecting our canteen sales, then you're gonna give us another 20, 30. It's crazy. It's the most one-sided thing in the world. Like last year on carpet squares, to hire carpet I spent $60,000 on carpet hire. You know, and Janet, I know you always compete, that stage that I built, that's nearly $50,000 to rent the stage and lights and the rigging to do that. And I've got 3 stages. You know, and then the strongman area where I have the grandstands up both sides is $17,000 each side. You know, to rent. And no one could see this. No one could see what goes into it. So this is the biggest challenge, is the budget. No shit. Now I've gotta sell all that space and raise all the sponsorship money and then get the tickets on sale. And thank God for the VIP ticket people, 'cause they buy their tickets early and really help me to put the deposit down on the venue. But even that's a fight, because when you hire a venue like that from a government agency, they want 30% upfront. It's like, but I haven't sold any tickets. Okay, we'll rent it to someone else. So that's the challenge.

So putting it up and the risk that people are going to come in and spend money when they're in there.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's been years, honestly, I haven't drawn a wage from it where I've worked 365 days straight and not got remunerated one cent. So it's not like I do it for the money. It's like I love it. But the hardest thing is making it work, making it fit. And the problem is it gets bigger. Smaller. So just when I've got it figured out, I change it. Oh man, you don't want to be in there. You don't want to be in there. Sometimes I'll just go, what the hell is wrong with you? What have you done, man? You know? And so just when I get it right, I reinvent it. Great. So this year, because it's our 50th, we've completely redone the floor plan. So I've moved everything around. I've come up with, I think it's genius and it's gonna work. But you know, never make it work. So that's the hardest bit. The travel is the best bit, man. I love it. I mean, getting to travel with your idol and go to some of the most amazing places in the world and eat at the best restaurants and to do some of the most incredible things. I mean, some of the experiences I've had with Arnold, like the first year we had the Arnold here was on the same weekend as a Grand Prix. And the same politicians that won't give us and sent towards it, or recognise the fact. I went and had an economic impact study done, hoping that would open some doors, and it is now, 5 years later. And we put $23 million into Victoria's economy in one weekend, proven and audited. And there's events that they fund that put half that much in, that they lose money on, and they wouldn't even talk to us. So the first year, so the Premier Daniel Andrews, John Aaron, the Minister for Sport, the all there at the Grand Prix. The same guys who wouldn't talk to me trying to get a selfie with Arnold, right? And we went into the race director's room and I'd worded him up. He goes, so you guys are the ones that won't even answer his emails, right? And it was fantastic. But one of the best memories, we went out to the start of the race and, you know, all the cars are getting onto the grid and the race director, whose name is Pasquale, who worked for Ecclestone, comes out and he goes, you guys just wait there. Right to the Premier, the Minister's voice, Prime Minister, Arnold, Tony, come with me, excuse me. And we went onto the grid and we're there when they're starting the engines of the car and they bring out this dry ice to put under the engine so the cars don't explode. And we met, you know, Ricciardo and the guy that won the race and Arnold was up on the podium doing his speeches. I was there on the podium next to them and we met Niki Lauda, who's the Austrian guy that caught fire in famous in the '80s and had selfies with him, all this kind of thing. And I was just, my friend Tony, you know, and TV interview. It was crazy, you know, being broadcast to 400 million people around the world on the podium of the Grand Prix. I couldn't have thought this shit up. And then conversely, that'd be one of my greatest experiences. Also this year we're in Africa and we went to, we did the Arnold Youth Festival in a part of Johannesburg called called Alexandra, which is— so in Brazil we have favelas. You know what they are? It's the slums. In India they're called slums. In Africa they're called townships. So there's a place, let's say the size of Richmond, with 1.1 million people living in these little tin shacks. Alright, half of them are kids. So we put on this activation called the Arnold Youth Festival where we got 16 sports to do free sport for kids to come and try. We got some facilities facilities right next to the township and they were doing soccer and rugby and baseball and netball and basketball and martial arts. And we had another room with 300 kids playing chess, all these different things. And the deal was, if you're a kid from the township and we're trying to get you into sport and away from drugs and gangs, 'cause there's a massive violent problem there, that if you come and try a sport, you get a free Arnold t-shirt. And a bottle of water and a free meal. We had 14,000 kids show up. Can you imagine? 14,000 little black kids with hope in their eyes. And you look down, half of them not wearing any shoes. Not 'cause of the weather, 'cause they haven't got any shoes. You know, and I said, wow, they're waiting 2, 2.5 hours for their meal 'cause we ran out of food. In fact, we had to share it between the 5 ladies in the community that did catering because if one of them hadn't got it, the other ones might have killed them. No shit. So there was all the politics of that that their partners had to navigate. And then they had these 5 stations where they come and it was like a big stew and their carbs was maize because rice is too expensive. Maize is like a cornstarchy thing with this stew. I don't know what was in it. Right, these kids lined up 2, 3 hours and when I got to the bottom of it, it's because most of them never had 2 meals in one day in their their whole life. They eat once a day and they've got no shoes and they rock up. Yeah, the free t-shirt was good, but wow, free food. You know, it was one of the most heart-wrenching and amazing and emotional things I've ever been involved with. Just as good as being in a helicopter or being on the grid of a Grand Prix because you look down at these little kids who are trying sport perhaps for the first time, whose parents are never going to push them into that, who might, you just do numbers. You know, if 10% of them get through, that's 1,400 lives we change. If 1% get through, that's 140 kids that might have a good life because we were there. You know, so these, these kind of things are sometimes the highlights. It's not, it's not always a flash trip, you know. So for me, the travel, Mark, I can talk to you guys about travel and places all day long. It's really, really impacted me and changed my point of view, and it's helped me to— like, a lot of time with my real talk, people say, where do you get all this stuff from? Because I've seen stuff that we haven't seen here. We live in this land of opportunity, and I see this sense of entitlement we have here. Well, people have this ability to be sad and depressed and feeling bad. I understand some people get clinical depression, that's terrible, but most people get situational depression because they feel sorry for themselves and they overthink shit. You get born in China Or India, let's go to India. I went into a slum in Mumbai. My God, it was the most life-changing, this was years ago. I had this driver at a 7-star hotel. He said, anything you wanna see, temples or the shit. I go, can we go into a slum? I just wanna, if no one would be offended. He goes, yeah. He goes, there's a really good slum just around the corner here. Long story short, those people in those slums, when they're 13 or 14, they get pulled outta school and say, hey Mark, we got you a job. "Here's your job, you're gonna work in a factory. It's only 2 hours from here or 3 hours from here. 7 days a week, no 4 weeks holiday, no holiday pay, no superannuation, no bullshit. If you go and show up for work every single day and never have a sickie, you can eat for the next 50 years. That's your life, that's your choice, there's no way out." And I said to my driver, he said, "I live in a slum about 40 minutes from here. It's a really good slum, we've got running water, we've got power." And I said, how many rooms in your thing? He goes, one. Three kids. And I said, you've got a good job at a 7-star hotel. If you, um, he was at the Taj Palace. I said, if you, um, and he was immaculate. His gloves were the whitest gloves. And they're doing this in gutters and shit. Anyway, I said, if you, and I looked at this worst building I've ever seen in my life. I go, if you save up really well, you're gonna get $100 tip today, right? I said, can you live in a place like that one day? He just broke out laughing, goes, no, not in 10 lifetimes. He goes, my parents lived in the slum, I'm in the slum, my kids will always live in the slum. We can never get out of there. But because I work so hard, my kids get to go to a better school. And he lit up like this. And he told me a story how his 3 little boys, 7, 8, and 9, walked half an hour to get to the dirt road to get on the bus to go 2.5 hours on a bus without their mum, no 4-wheel drive out the front of the school. Beep beep, you know, and then 2.5 hours to come home on the bus. So they've gone like 12, 14, 15 hours a day to go to a better school to have an opportunity, not even to get out of a slum, but to get a better job than driving a car or working in a factory. See what I'm saying? They don't have a choice. So I can say to you guys, believe in yourself, make a plan, have a vision, you can do it. You get born in a shithole, Dream all you want, you're fucked. And this is what travel's taught me. I've been to places in China where people come in from the villages and been bussed in. There's cities in China where they've built cities. There's a city not far from Shanghai they've built for 5 million people, it's not even open yet. It's got hospitals and schools and factories and supermarkets and it's got a fence around it. So that when Shanghai finally spills over, they're just gonna get 5 million people, go, you don't live there anymore. You live here and they get bussed there and that's that. You know, when I see this stuff and I see these poor little kids who all they've got is hope and they come back here and I thought, fucking phone, ran out of batteries.

What are 3 places that you would say, you know, absolutely, you know, anyone who's watching this, if you go there you won't come back the same? Same person that have been like real special places that you think?

Well, depends what you're going for. If it's for experience and food and culture and, you know, richness and, and a contrast, I'd say Brazil. Because Brazil, you've got the favelas, but then you've got some of the best food in the world. You get the most beautiful people with amazing character and personality and drive. And where if they work hard, they can get it. And they're one of the hardest working races in the world. So I'd say Brazil would be right up there. You know, a lot of people, a lot of my business partners, people who have done like India, they're like, oh, it's terrible. So every time I've been there, like 4 or 5 times, every time I've come back really enriched, you know, because you just see stuff. When I went into that slum I was telling you about in Mumbai, the thing I took out of it is that they're happy. Most people are not miserable. They're kind of honored that I went in there and just want to make friends and smile and the kids were happy. Kids had this thing the size of your gym on a dirt thing and they'd made a cricket ball out of tape and they had a stick and that was it. That was all their toys put together and they're playing this thing and they're all happy, they're laughing and they appreciated what they had. And so I think India is a really enriching place to visit just to change the way you look. Third one, oh man, I love history. I love history and I love nature. I just love everything. I'm really fortunate because I see the good, I find something good in everything. There's not one single place in the world I've been that I didn't like. I'm like, yeah, but they've got this. Yeah, it's a shithole, but they've got that. I always find something. So I don't know, man. I think the US is amazing, but it's like 50 different countries. It's so big. It's like Australia and more. Because like here, you've got to go 3 days to see something like that there, but there's a whole lot of states in in between. And of course, Europe, you know, the history of the old castles and seeing things 1,000 years old and understand that these guys were building these incredible architectural miracles 1,000 years before computers were invented or anything digital that we couldn't build today that is still standing. So I love that kind of thing. I was in Prague last year. I was in Portugal and Spain and Holland. And I've really been fortunate to go to so many places. I don't think I could pick a third one. But I think as Australians, we don't know enough about South America. 'Cause in school, right, we learn about US, we learn about Europe. Starting to learn a little bit about Asia, but South America, what? There is a South America? Okay, that's just so rich history. Oh man, I don't even think I'd give you my top 10.

Just go travel everywhere.

Go see the world.

Forget about PTE, just go travel, that's it.

What if we change the topic? Seriously, I've had calls where they go, hey, there's an opportunity to do something in Shanghai, but you've got to be there this weekend. I just go, I'll be there. I don't even know how I'm going to get there. I'll just get there. You know, Arnold's done that to me a couple of times. And once it was for a movie premiere for Genesis Terminator in Shanghai for the Asian premiere. I didn't know what even why he wanted me there. We went to look at some venues, but it turned out to be that. It was a great opportunity. We had a fantastic time. You know, I've had times where you talk about the putting yourself in the right position to succeed, where someone said to me, hey, this is happening in the bodybuilding world, but you need to be at a meeting in Pittsburgh or in Las Vegas or in Atlanta next weekend. And I've flown for a single meeting. I flew to have a meeting once with Arnold for an hour to LA to have a meeting and came home again, didn't tell anyone. Just got me my tea, baby, whatever it takes. W-I-T, whatever it takes. Can't stop and go, "Oh, but that doesn't make sense." Nothing makes sense.

So, just—

Sorry.

I was just gonna get inside the head of Tony Doherty a little bit more. So, you've brought out for now 20 years the best strongmen, the best bodybuilders, you know, basically celebrities. It's quite the crown to wear as promoter. I mean, I imagine there's amazing pressure to get it right. Pressure to get it right from the athletes involved, but also amazing pressure to get it right from the fans who demand their money's worth. How does one handle that pressure? How does one handle that without getting overwhelmed and wanting to rip out their hair?

Well, you do your best, you know, and I think anyone that knows me and follows my thing or any kind of fans I've developed over the years just know I'm all in or I'm not in at all. So I give it my 100% best. And like with the Pro Show, some years the lineups have been better than other years. And when I have a poor lineup, I don't work any less. In fact, I work harder. Just for example, this year's Arnold Classic was unbelievable because it was the 30th year anniversary in Columbus. We were a week later. We couldn't fail. We had the best lineup ever. The year before was shit. It was terrible. So then I'll just find an angle, find a way. So that particular year I thought, okay, well, we're not gonna get the best guys in the world, so we'll double the amount of figure girls, we'll double the amount of bikini girls. And we'll double the amount of strongmen and bring in more people. We'll bring some celebrities we wouldn't have got, you know, and just find a way. Just find, you know, it's like breaking through a wall. If you just stand there and just try and go through the same spot, you're just going to get a headache. But if you just get a brick wall and go, I'm going to bust this over with my head, and just do the same thing every day, do you think you're going to bust through? No, of course not. But if you go sideways, you go left, you go right, you go left, you go right until you find a crack crack, and then you dig and you start scratching and then you create a space and you pull a brick out your way. Well, it's like that with promoting. You just, you don't stop, man. You just, if you try as hard as you can and if something doesn't come off, you go, okay, what now? And you think laterally and you think big and you think, okay, but what else can I do? And I always find a way. So I love the pressure. I don't feel like there's incredible pressure because I know I give it my all. You know, I think it'd It would be worse if I knew that I was half-assed about something, or I failed because I was lazy, or I failed because I didn't work 100 days straight, or I failed because I went partying all the time. No, no, man, I just work. So I just give it my all. The athletes, I've got so much credibility that I only could have dreamed of with the professional athletes in a number of sports across the world. I've been a huge influence now in the direction of pro bodybuilding around the world. I'm kind of, you know, in that upper echelon of the whole sport. And as far as Arnold's concerned, that's the biggest pressure because he always says, him and Jim Lorimer, one very specific demand, better than your previous best. You know, you can't sit still. You can't just go, okay, well, dish that up again. No. So that's probably the pressure, is just to keep doing better. And especially when you do well, you go, okay, Now it's gonna be hard to beat because we had a bit of a lucky year, you know, so you can't just look at the athletes, you look at the big picture of how many people you get and how much publicity you get, how many lives you affect, how many different experiences you do, how many sports you add. You know, this year, for example, with the Arnold Sports Festival, we got in front of the, um, our charity partner was the Royal Children's Hospital Good Friday Appeal, which got me in front of the Run for the Kids, and that had like 25,000 people doing a fun run on the Sunday of the Arnold. So I fought like hell to get a meeting with them. I got a meeting with them and I said, you guys can come under our umbrella and be one of our activities. They're like, we don't, we're not going under anyone. I said, no, no, we're not gonna tell you how to run for kids. We won't tell you where to start and stop and what road closes to do it, nothing. I said, all your athletes after the race can come into the Arnold for free. I'll give them a wristband and I'll bring Arnold to start the race. Race and fire the horn or the pistol or whatever it is if you become part of us because it's a fitness crusade. And we want to say we had so many tens of thousands of people involved in activity in Melbourne for the weekend. And if you work with us, you can be a part of that. And you can join in with our publicity that we get and all the cameras. I'll bring everyone to the race because Arnold's going to be there. So I've got my publicist in front of them and he said this is going to be amazing. And we've got more publicity for their race than they've ever, ever had, which raised in turn more money for the children's hospital. So always just find a way, but we added that. You know, so I just think, I don't know, it's being an opportunist. Yeah, man, just like, I don't stop thinking. It's funny, I'm just gonna digress, but, and I get this a lot with my real talk, and I try and help people, inspire people. And one of the questions I get all the time is people are a bit lost. And some of us are, all of you are, everyone is, right? But some people are more lost than others. Oh, you know, I really want more out of my life, but I don't know what it is. I haven't found my thing yet. How do you know when you found your thing? And it's a really simple answer. When you find something that keeps you awake at night and wakes you up in the morning and makes you forget to eat and makes you obsessed and crazy, you found your thing. Right? So I'm one of those people who found their thing. So every single day, even without the Arnold stuff, even without the expos, I get to go to the gym every day. I'm a gym guy, I love it. Every single morning, even when I was married, she'd say, you can't wait to get to the gym, can you? I can't wait, I love it. The hardest thing for me is to leave at night. I'll go in a minute. Oh, so-and-so walked in. Because it's my passion. And I think in life you've gotta find 3 things, passion, vision, action. Passion means something that keeps you awake at night. Write this one down, passion, vision, action. The 3 keywords words, Mark. I've said this to you before. So important. You can't succeed without these 3 things. Passion means that thing, right? Where it gives you butterflies, it makes you crazy. Keeps you awake at night, wakes you up in the morning. That's passion. But vision means, hmm, you gotta be a little realistic and you gotta say, okay, well, how's this gonna work and what's my plan and what's my point of difference and what's my What's my vision to make this? 'Cause you know, everyone wants to own a studio or a personal trainer, but they've got no idea. For example, I say to people, imagine I had a passion for motorcars. I said, I'm gonna be the next big thing after Tesla. I'm gonna bring out a car brand. Well, I better have a vision for that because they've got billions and I don't. So you can, well, how am I gonna reinvent cars with no money? All right, so you can be crazy about cars, but you're probably not gonna be that guy. So vision means just harnessing that back a little bit and working it out. And action means when are you gonna take action? It doesn't mean when are you gonna open your studio, when are you gonna take on the world, when are you gonna become an actor. It means what are you willing to do today? If you're serious about your passion and vision, then what's your action? Your action is there's 18 hours a day that you're awake. Most people work 8, maybe 10 hours if you're pushing yourself. That leaves 8 hours to do what I said before, to get your phone out and Google shit and study things and watch success stories. Successful people and go to seminars and to learn and to read and to study and to do your investigation, do your due diligence of that industry you want to get into. And this is why, for example, I've become obsessed with Instagram. I study it more than I studied anything at school. If I'm going to travel, I'll study. If I'm going to do a fitness expo, I'll learn so much more about it than what I need to know so I'm in a position to win. Right? And people say, oh, action, you know, I can't start my thing because I don't have the money or the space or the time. Okay, so sit around and watch movies and, you know, play on your phone and gossip. You know, watch the Kardashians. That's gonna get you ahead. Instead, watch Gary Vee or watch someone who's just got some answers and some inspiring shit and some great messages. So that's what I mean by action. It means if you guys are serious about doing something for yourself, go home and start today. They go, Monday morning I'll start my diet. Well, you're gonna go eat chips. Like, it's crazy when you break it down and understand the psychology of what we do to self-sabotage. It's the reason most people fail.

That's actually a great segue into what I wanted to talk about next, which was when you do start on that path— and I know I certainly have copped it a fair bit, as I'm sure you have as well— but when you do start on that path and you've got that you start building it and you become even a little bit successful at it, it does attract a certain amount of negativity and haters. And this is the thing that I find, and it used to affect me a lot more than obviously it does now. Now it's just water off a duck's back. But in consulting with a lot of trainers from all over, one of their biggest problems and their biggest hurdles to overcome is once they put themselves out there, they've become successful, is the cheap shots. And I think, I don't want to say it's, obviously it's only the fitness industry, this kind of thing. But I think the fitness industry in a way has a certain way of doing it to their own that is probably a little bit unique than other industries. We seem to be very good as a fitness industry to tear each other down rather than build each other up. What's been your experience? And I suppose, how do you handle it?

My experience has been it's all industries. You know, guys in the automotive industry and their spray painters, they tear other spray painters down. It's universal. It's just we're in this, we think it's all about us, it's not. So how do I deal about it? And it's not to put you down, it's just to say, just open your mind up. It's a universal thing, it's just that, it's just people. It's people, they want what they can't have, you know? And they see someone else being successful, so their fallback is to, oh, he got lucky, or he's a prick, or he's a smartass, or whatever. So how do I deal with it? I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks. I don't respond to anyone. Anyone, never ever should you not do something because of what somebody else thinks. This is what it breaks down to. There's 3 things that will stop you from succeeding. Self-doubt, fear of failure, and the big one, worrying about what people think. Now, if people are taking cheap shots at you, it means you're doing something right. You can't make everyone happy. And the people that you worry about that are taking the cheap shots don't like you. They want you to fail. And when you do, I said earlier, they're gonna say, "Ha, told you so." and when you win, they're gonna go, "Oh yeah, but he got lucky. It's only 'cause he met Arnold. It's only 'cause he met Tony. It's only 'cause they went to Wolfpack." You know, people like that, why would you respond to their opinion or let alone adjust your path because of what somebody else thinks? So a cheap shot to me is kind of the lowest form of flattery. It's okay, you bother talking about me means you're obsessed with me. It's like people who watch my, page and leave some dumb comment. Why are you even watching? I don't follow anyone I don't like. That's retarded. Why would you follow someone you don't like and then wait for your moment to give them a cheap shot? Fuckwit. Would you do that in real life? Would you come up and say that? Or you're as tough as your phone, you know? That's crazy. Excuse me for swearing, but you need to sometimes because this is the sort of behavior that we're conditioned to believe is important. It's not. So I'm gonna go beyond anything we say, oh, that's water off a duck's back. Don't give them oxygen. Don't respond. If I get a dumb comment, delete. Block. If it's weird, block. If it's just dumb, delete. Don't respond because once you respond, and once even if somebody attacks you, you start shooting back at them, sending messages, throwing bombs back at them, then you're just the same as them. And the thing about, it's someone who doesn't like you or someone who doesn't want to see you succeed is the most hurtful thing is to not give them any oxygen. It's just pretend they don't exist. Right, no oxygen means no response. Someone says, oh, what about so-and-so? Oh, I don't do anything next. Don't even talk about them, give them nothing. It drives them nuts. Right, but then don't do stuff to prove people wrong, do it to prove yourself right because they don't count anyway. So Mark, I've become better and better and better at it. I used to be, you know, I wanted to fight everyone. Now I'm just like, you know what, I'm kind of sad for them.

When did you transition from that? When did you go from fighting Tony, fisticuffs, to zen-like Tony?

It's been a work in progress, you know. Certainly when the Arnold thing happened, I knew I had to become, you know, very responsible able adult and not put myself in a position where I could be in any kind of trouble. Probably, I don't know, there's not really one moment. I guess having kids too quietened me down a lot. You know, as the kids started to grow up, I thought, you know, I don't want to be setting a bad example. It's not that I was super violent, but, you know, back in the early days with the gyms, it was a pretty tough sort of space, and people would test me out and I'd respond effectively, you know. And then you start putting cameras in and everything's online. Things have changed. But I am a lot more zen person now because I think the travel's done it. Just accepting the world as it is and people as they are. And except if someone's got a problem with me, that's their problem. It's not my problem. And caring about— this is what I've got to get to you understand. Why would you care about what somebody else thinks? Because it's nothing to do with you. It's actually none of your business. If somebody's focusing on you and sending hateful messages or saying dumb shit or whatever about you, that's got nothing to do with you. Unless you're asked, who? They don't count. They're not gonna come here and spend money. They're not gonna come here and support you and your business. They're not gonna come and buy a drink. So why would you care what they think? I care what my customers think. I care what my family thinks. I care what the people that I love think. If I hurt one of them, that's a different story. But if it's just someone who's just throwing bombs from afar, ah, next. Yeah, and what I found is a funny thing. Since I've sort of become more well-known or a little bit celebrity status, you know, whatever with the Arnold stuff, I've had people that have supported me all through my life who've then jumped off and became like enemies. Like, wow, so you're happy for me to be this big, but anything above that is actually be hurtful to you and now you're gonna become this absolutely obsessed and centered with making me fail. I've had some of that. Okay, I'm not gonna stop. I don't really care. You know, all my life people told me that I should calm down or don't do this. My favorite was people say, oh, you're obsessed. Hell yeah. I've met some really successful people with meeting and working with Arnold and some of the celebrities and actors and elite athletes that I've met, guess what? Guess what they've all got in common? They're all obsessed. I don't know one highly successful person who hasn't got that about them. It's what it takes. It's okay. Just we're told, you know, don't be obsessed, that's obsessive.

Yeah, no shit. So on that, so I was just in a moment processing what you were saying.

It's a process.

We have some students in the room, students watching, they start a business, they again become successful, they're down the road, they might have 1, 2, a couple of staff members working for them. You've got 6 gyms, you've got Arnold Schwarzenegger as your business partner, you've got the IFBB Pro League. They get overwhelmed with managing 2 staff and their sessions. There's a lot of noise I'd imagine in your life, people literally pulling you in every direction that you could probably, and all over the globe physically as well, not just mentally. What tips would you give to those who are getting overwhelmed and find themselves, you know, pulling out their hair?

Don't overthink it, live in the moment, just do what you do. Sometimes I get like a film crew following me or someone will like wanna ghost me for a day and just come follow me around. And that's when I feel it, when I see somebody else getting manic about my being manic. You're okay? You get pulled in all directions, you go, yeah. I don't know, 2 days ago, 3 days ago, I had meetings every single hour and I did a podcast with this guy, I didn't even know him. I always say yes to podcasts, you know, why not? Might affect one person. There's a guy who was doing a program on mental health, he's a really nice young man and he got into personal training 'cause he watched my TV show called Muscle TV. And I'd been like his idol all these years, I didn't know that when he reached out. So this was this monumental moment for him to come and do this podcast. And it was all about exercise and the value for mental health and stuff. And I got so much out of it, you know, by giving. And because of that one, I didn't get to eat. And then I had another meeting, another meeting, and I took all my food to work. It was like 3 o'clock. I'm like, shit, I trained on an empty stomach this morning. I had a bowl of oatmeal and I've had like 9 meetings and a podcast since 3 o'clock. And I'm actually lightheaded. And I'm like, that's, you know, anyone watching that would go, that's crazy. This is just a normal day. And when you strive for things and you take on more and more tasks, one, you've got to get more organized. Like I've just put on a PA for the first time ever. Like my dad, my accountant, everyone's supposed to say, you need to get an assistant. Like you're crazy. Cause I say yes. I say no when I need to say no. But if someone just needs a chop out, I'm like, yeah, like you'll call, hey, can I come over and see you 10 o'clock Tuesday? Yeah, come. I don't write it down. And then someone else says, oh, can you be somewhere 10 o'clock Tuesday? Sounds like a plan. And then 3 people rock up at once and the person at the desk comes and says, "There's 3 people all said they've got a 10 o'clock appointment with you." Shit. So I've got a PA and she's amazing. She runs my diary more than anything else. So do that, be organized. But you've gotta choose what you wanna do. So what I'm doing now, I'm finding as I get busier, I get busier. So now I've got 3 or 4 other projects and my general manager who runs all the other projects Arnold stuff and a little bit with the gyms, who was formerly my producer for the TV show. He's known me for a long, long time, and he's identified my strengths and weaknesses very, very well. So it's been very helpful to have an objective person, you know, that can sort of point that out. And he said to me a few years ago, he goes, you're no good unless you've got some manic impossible challenge in front of you. Like, as soon as you achieve one thing, you're looking for another mad, like, another thing. And I know that, so I'm like, okay, that's good. That's why the Arnold's been good for me, 'cause it's like so massive every year. It curbs it, but I'm doing some, so you talk about the gyms and the pro league stuff, so all the competitions around Australia, I think I'm running over 20 shows this year around Australia and posing clinics and all that sort of thing as a whole. And that's another team of staff I've got working full-time on that. And then there's my personal stuff. So with my Relentless Momentum talks, and I'm writing a stage show to, So you've been to the Relentless, the early stage. So Phase 2, that's gonna be a bigger thing. Like we were talking a little bit about what you were doing earlier. We're gonna go to a bigger audience. It's gonna cost them less, but take it to masses. So I'm working on that and I'm working on a book and I'm working on a doco and a couple of other things and a new podcast I'm starting. So I've turned 10 businesses into 15 new challenges and spreading myself thinner and thinner. Thinner. I just figured, you know, I wouldn't— if I couldn't, if I wasn't capable of doing it, I wouldn't have thought it up in the first place. So anyone out there that's struggling with balance and all that, just find something you love doing. It's not a chance, it's nothing to me. As I just wish I had 28 hours in a day, and I wish there was a pill you take on operation you'd have so you'd never have to sleep again. I'd be the first one, man. Do you want to get it?

Start with So I want to give the audience as much of you as possible, and the way I figured to do that is to play the one-word game. So if you're not familiar with the one-word game, basically I'm going to give you a word and you're going to give me a one, max maybe two to three word response. So for example, if I was to say legs, someone might say squats, right? So it's a word association game. So you ready to play?

Ready?

All right, Australian bodybuilders.

Go to the next one.

Uh, Doherty's brand?

Home Away From Home.

Uh, The Weeknd's?

No Such Thing.

The greatest bodybuilder of all time?

Ronnie Coleman.

Greatest sportsperson of all time?

Muhammad Ali.

Millennials?

Give them a chance. Big box gyms? Nothing. Not my world.

Biggest supplement lie?

Take this and you'll look like me.

Bodybuilding magazines?

Dead. Finished. Goodbye.

The fitness industry?

Amazing. Wonderful. Growing.

Personal trainers?

Good and bad.

Favorite color?

Couldn't give a fuck. Good answer.

I was expecting like black or steel, metallic, but we'll go with couldn't give a fuck. I hope you got that on camera, right?

Respected colleague or peer?

Respected colleague or peer.

Hmm. Jim Magnam.

Favorite motorcycle?

Chopper.

Something that pisses you off?

Who that chew loudly.

We've got another one of those in class at the moment. Yeah. Something that you love?

Life.

Favorite pastime?

Pastime? What's my 5? That's a good question.

Training.

See, I know. Training. There you go.

A business you like shopping at.

None. Oh, okay. There's this one shop. Sorry, long story. Quick answer. Barbour. It's a men's clothing shop from London that's in South Africa. And whenever I go there, I'll get enough clothes for a year.

Suits or?

No, no, I've got a suit maker. No, it's just like, you know, just cool shit.

A book to read?

Shantaram.

And finally, favorite Arnold movie?

Terminator 2.

Oh, nice one. They say that, just to, I suppose, wrap up a couple more questions, few more questions, but they say that you become the product of the 5 closest people to you. Now, it really doesn't get much bigger than Arnold Schwarzenegger. Arnold Schwarzenegger in terms of that. So one, is that saying true? And two, how has your relationship with Arnold affected you on a personal level?

I think it's true to a point. When you've got so many worlds colliding like I do have, there's not really 5 people. There's 5 people in each world. So I've got like 10 worlds going on. But the Arnold world has impacted me It's impacted me enormously. Being like someone who always had a lot of self-belief and big dreams to start with, when that comes to fruition and your idol becomes your friend, that's like the biggest injection of confidence and belief that you could ever have. So that's affected me enormously. It's made me even more believe I can do anything and be anything. And personally, he's been such a great mentor with business, with life, with dealing with shit, with personal stuff, and just seeing how to act at that next level. So when you've just got like a gym or you just work in a shop or something, you can be one way. And then as you become more of a leader, you become a certain way. So when I see the greatest leader that I've ever met, then that rubs off on me. I start seeing traits in him, I think, okay, I need to be more of that. So he's taught me without trying to be a teacher, he's taught me so much just by being in his presence. Like, he's the most curious person you could ever meet. So when we go, so we always ask people questions. It can be a driver, can be a chef, it can be in an Uber, and he genuinely asks people, you know, where are you from, what's your background, how did you get here, and then remembers it and tells a story later on that night or whatever. And I thought, wow, you know, it's really great to make people feel important. But as you become more famous or more, you know, you rise in your world, that importance means even more to someone. So it's made me realize, you know, don't just be a dick when people come and say, oh, can I get a selfie? Make sure you ask them a question and give a little back because people have done that to me. Helped me to elevate. So it's made me want to give back a lot more. You know, when he talks about his 6 Secrets of Success, he says give back. I thought that was about giving money to charity or something. It's not. It's giving back to the human race. So I think he's made me, honestly, made me a much better person, much better leader, but probably zen me out a lot as far as just being in that moment of giving, you know. Long answer, but that's I hadn't really thought about it, but that's usually where you get your best answers, right? Mm-hmm.

Well, what I'd love to do now is open up to Wolfpack for questions that you have for Tony. So who would like to pop up their hand and ask Tony a question? Yes, Alan.

Tony, after hearing you speak this morning, it's clear that you're a man of contribution and what you really value, what fitness fitness brings to society. And you're not clearly just an entrepreneur for the sake of it.

You actually really do believe in what fitness can bring. So with so many things going on and, you know, in your life and all these different businesses, how do you prioritize things?

Like, for me, for instance, I'm coming up to an opportunity where I can work with adolescents and victims of crime and bring fitness to them. I value also what fitness brings to people and mental health and stuff, but it may not be the best for my business in relation to income and stuff like that. How do you prioritize and how have you prioritized things like that where you feel like you get that connection and that fulfillment from it, but juggling with, like I said, income and all that kind of stuff? Just basically choosing the right path and what to chase. My easy answer to that is I've never been driven by money, which is probably why I'm shit at some of the things I do, like with gyms and expos. I probably could have made more money if I was more financially conscious, so I may be the wrong person to answer this because I think that if passion's your number one thing, that money will come at some stage. And for example, the first public speaking public speaking I ever did was to a group. And I only remember this because I did a show in the Alhambra Theatre in Bendigo a few weeks ago, which was the old Bendigo jail. And they just spent millions of dollars and turned it into this beautiful theatre. And my first ever public speaking thing, I was 19, I was working in the gym and there was a prison guard there. He said, can you come up and talk about health and fitness to the prisoners? Because they're a bit lost and they need someone like you. And I was really jacked up for a young guy, you know. You know, just gonna come and talk about bodybuilding and fitness. And I didn't stop and think, oh, I'll have to cancel a client or take time off work. I thought, what a great opportunity. And I went and did that. And that opened up a world of public speaking. Now if I had gone, oh, but what about the $20 an hour I just lost? I never would have gone. You know, and there's been times where I've gone and worked, for example, next week, 3 weeks' time, I've got a work, backstage at Mr. Olympia doing all the interviews. I've never asked him, should I get paid for that? Because what that does for my profile, and like, I'm a bodybuilding kid, man, from a little country town. I get to stand there, Phil Heath waits for me. This is crazy. I couldn't have thought this shit up because I've never been worried about that. So I think when you get an opportunity, you should take it and not even care about the money. You know, if you can't pay your bills, then you gotta go, okay, I need to back off on the the giving a little bit and work more on getting my bills paid. But you never know what opportunity might open up. You know, when I, when I, you said I talked about Muscle TV. So when, when I had an opportunity, I wanted to be a TV presenter all my life. I always wanted to be on TV. I still want to be an action movie star. It's like my secret dream, right? And I don't know if it's too late or not, but I'm just keeping it open just in case because I look like a badass, right? There might be— I said to Adam, when you do the next Expendables. Think about it, right? And I've been drinking with Randy Couture, who's also in it. Randy. I met Stallone. Hey, Stallone. I met Hulk Hogan. Hey, you know, when you need this— so I'm telling all of them. And, uh, I'm meeting with The Rock next month. I'm gonna say, brother, brother. Anyway, beyond that, um, where was I with that? Uh, with Muscle TV. So they needed a host and they didn't have I don't have any budget. And I said, I'll make it easy for you, I'll do it for free. They go, what? I go, I'll do it for free. And I did a whole season for free. It took up so much time. I remember at the time my staff and my people said, well, what are you doing that for? You know, like, you gotta have time, we're gonna get someone in for the counter. I go, because I'm gonna put everyone in Doherty shirts in the background, I'm gonna brand, I'm gonna get something out of it. But short term, don't worry about the money because I wanted to be a TV presenter and I couldn't afford at the time to go to if there was a school or a university for TV presenters, I couldn't afford to rent the car space. I couldn't afford to park my car if I had a car, let alone be a TV presenter. So I did it for free. And then the next season, come on, I'll do it for free again. And it became very successful. They gave me a little bit of money, but it was never a whole lot of money. Then I became the weights coach at the Carlton Football Club, which I loved all my life, and the pay was terrible. I had to go there 3 3 times a week, take time off from the gym. And it was when the club was broke, they never had a big budget. You know, we were getting like 10 grand and a new guy came in after us and got 300 because money become— but whatever. I never did it for the money, but what that did for my profile and what that did for my media and what that did for me running onto the MCG with the players, you know, some stuff I never could have imagined. So I'd say, man, Take your opportunities. Don't ever say no to anything. Who knows what it might lead to? And then if it's costing you money, back off. But I hope that is a good answer. Can you just repeat what your favourite book was? Shantaram. It was by Gregory David Roberts, I think. You nodded your head, yeah. It's about an Australian guy who was a heroin addict bank robber who broke out of prison prison and went to India and reinvented himself and became like a medic in the slums in Mumbai. And it's an incredible story of, it's a very spiritual book where he goes into the hills in Afghanistan as a freedom fighter. It's this crazy story. It's a mostly true story. And the way he writes, he talks about the lessons he learns from the elders in the hills and the people in the slums that probably gave me a fascination of travel and some Indian stuff and all that. You read it? Amazing, huh? What a story, man. What a trip. It's just a really good book. I was gonna say Arnold's biography, but that's too cliché. But as a book, I've never read a fiction book in my whole life. That one's probably a little bit fiction, but it's this guy's biography. And it was a Melbourne guy. He escaped from Pentridge. Yeah. Shantaram. S-H-A-N-T-A-R-A-M. Yeah, amazing.

One more question if we have it. When you're talking about when you were doing the speaking for free on Muscle TV and then looking at putting Dougherty shirts and so forth in the background, so forth, combining the Run for the Kids with the Arnold Classic, how do you find that way of lateral thinking where you where you find that opportunity where a lot of us would just be focused solely on that event or getting that specific thing running.

How do you have that—

I don't want to call it foresight, but that thought of lateral thinking to be able to draw that in?

I don't know how I've got it. I've never thought about it, but I'm thinking all the time. I don't stop. And life's just taught me. What else is there, you know? It's just a way of thinking. It's a way of life and I've never been any different. I'm always just thinking beyond the square and I'm always thinking psychology. So I'm thinking, okay, I'm doing this for free, but is there an angle? Is there something I could do to promote or to get the message to more people? Even when I do my real talk, even though it's spontaneous and it's action and it's live, there's so much psychology goes into it. Even when I do this stuff, even when I do a talk, I'm thinking about It's hard to describe. So it's not really how do I think. I just say if you don't think that way, open your mind up. Always just look beyond. Don't be driven just by the money and the aspect, okay, if I'm not in this space, what else can I do? Like when I travel, for example, and I might be in Brazil. So I won't just go to all the top restaurants that we're eating at. I'll find out where the locals eat. And I'll find out what the locals do and I'll get a day to myself and I'll buzz off somewhere else. So just always just think, what else? What else? What else is there? Yeah. I wish I'd give you a better answer, but I don't know. I'd probably have to be examined by a psychologist to find that out. Can you imagine that? The poor, poor person doing that interview. Yeah, man. But I just think you've gotta be, look, I've always been more of an opportunist than a planner. I think that's probably the best answer. That some people, they just plan Plan and plan and plan. Well, life's gonna kick you in the balls and go upside down. So don't overplan anything, 'cause you don't know. But if you're an opportunist and you're ready for every opportunity and you live in the moment, then you can just be free just to think, okay, what else? You know?

Final thoughts, Tony?

Like for example, here's one. How many of you guys don't follow me on Instagram? Tony Doherty Oz, O-Z. There you go. I just got 10 new followers. You know what? Just little things like that. Final thoughts. Oh man, I could talk. This is the thing. Everyone's got something they can do. I've always, I was thinking about driving across here, you know, I was gonna do a little story and then I didn't. So I shouldn't do stories while I drive. Cause I always get some ambulance driver or something, mess with me, go, you shouldn't be doing that when you're driving. I just had a really good thought anyway. I was thinking driving over here that, you know, you've got to use what you've got. You gotta work at your point of difference and what your skill is. You know, like you hear about famous boxers, they say, yeah, my fists got me out of this situation I was in, my fist took me somewhere. Or a great soccer player, yeah, my feet took me to great heights or my ball skills or my reflexes. For me, it's been my voice. I've always had this ability to talk and to translate. And to even now I'm like the, I'm like the concierge of people. If people have a fallout, I can put them back together. If people haven't spoken for years, and I've done this with people in the bodybuilding organization to bring them together and to build bridges and just to be able to talk and have some psychology of speech. So I was thinking about it today that you've got to kind of find out what your thing is and get even better at it and to use it. So mine's always just been able to relate to people and to talk and to know what the temperature is in a room and to go in and to execute or to back off or just to know that. So I think back to your question, I think if you're in that space and you know who you are and what you've got, then you can just see more opportunities than anyone else may do. Final thoughts, Mark? Let's go back to what I talked about earlier. Just don't let other people rain on your shit. You know, like if you've got an idea and an ideal and a vision and a passion to do something, please, please don't let other people talk you down or talk you out of it because you're just gonna end up like them. And people often say, when I've done my Relentless talks, and big question is, what's your greatest fear? Or why are you the way you are? And I've had to really think about that. And I'll tell you what it is. The only fear I have is regret. Only fear I've got is getting old and we're all gonna die one day. And when you're on your deathbed or it happens suddenly, whatever, you'd hate to think, oh gee, I wish I had have tried a bit harder, had have backed myself, had I had more self-belief, had have taken a risk. That to me, that's the scariest thought in the world is to know that you wasted your life. 'Cause I'm not a, I don't know, is there anything else out there? I don't know. It's got religious, I don't wanna get religious about it, but if there's nothing else, that means you've got one life. And one of my Real Talk spots, I walk through a graveyard and I always say, look at all these people, they're all dead. And everybody here died, but how many really lived? And I suggest it's in the single digits as a percentage. You know, most people just fall into the trap of complacency. Complacency. They play it safe because that's what society tells them they should do. Have security, have safety, you know, just be normal. And if that's not for you, then keep fighting. Otherwise you're just gonna get old and look back and go, oh yeah, I had my shot and I didn't take it. Take your chances. You know, even if it fails, it doesn't matter. 'Cause at least you go, at least I know, you know. So I think that, don't hold back and don't be controlled by other people's thoughts and fears and inadequacies because they're everywhere.

And where can people continue to follow you?

Probably Instagram's easiest, Tony Doherty Oz, that's O-Z. Tony Doherty, one word, Oz. And you can message me there. Don't message me on Facebook. I hate it, I told you that the other day. 'Cause I'll get messages on Snapchat, Instagram, text, email. Phone, text, and Messenger, and Insta. And I try and answer, but for some reason Messenger on Facebook pisses me off. I don't know why.

I've deleted it off my phone actually.

Yeah, Instagram is the easiest way to find me. And if I'm not, like, if we're not connected, it goes into another folder, but once a week I check that and get back to everyone. So yeah, I'll just, I'm pretty easy to find. I'm a very public, open person. Yeah, I'd appreciate you following that and if you enjoy it, spread the word. But there'll be something there for everyone and it's free.

Amazing interview there with Tony Doherty. Hope you've enjoyed this episode of The Wolf's Den with Tony Doherty. Do check him out on Instagram. Let's give Tony a round of applause.

Thanks, Mark. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

And stay tuned for our next episode with Andrew Lock. Make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube and check us out, Enterprise Fitness on Instagram. See you soon.