S2:E19 - Wolf’s Den: Sebastian Oreb

Welcome to the show that entertains and educates. Welcome to The Wolf's Den. My name is Mark Ottobre, and today's guest is possibly the strongest man in Australia, or at least is the strongest 110-kiloer, kiloer, lifting a total of 940 kilos. Please welcome to the show Australian strength coach, Sebastian Oreb.

Pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much, pleasure to be here.

So Sebastian, I probably wanna start with this. You said something that was very key. You said you don't like lifting heavy weights, you like making heavy weights feel light. Can you please explain this face?

That is a horrible face, but I'm sure all of you are familiar with it as much as I am. But, um, yeah, I like it. Thanks for getting that. You're welcome. Okay, so, so this is competition day, and what I do to prepare for this day is very different to this. Oh, we've all got the faces. This is amazing. This is amazing. We're gonna get a group shot, we know that.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

I don't need to hold that face.

No, we don't need to, but we'll put it up when we need it. That's it, yes.

So it's an interesting thing. I mean, the way that I train today is very different to how I started off. I won't even say in the industry, I wasn't in the industry when I started training. I was a 63-kilo guy trying to impress my girlfriend, who's now my wife. And, you know, to be honest with you, you know, our first date was on the beach and I was embarrassed to take my t-shirt off. And she kind of said to me, you know, in a really nice way, you know, I'd probably prefer it if you trained. I reckon you should train. And I thought, okay, I know what you're saying. And I actually became a fanatic from then. And I did all the, you know, the hard work and the no pain, no gain approach. And I was a fanatic. And I built a lot of muscle mass in a very short time. And I got to a great result, you know, fulfilled my goal of keeping her as a girlfriend, needless to say. But then from then, my, everything has changed. And I don't actually, don't misinterpret what I'm saying, I don't train for aesthetics. I don't train for health, I don't train for function. I train for a sport now, and as a result, I get a lot of those benefits. And that's what I try and teach right now. And to be the best at my sport, it's actually counterproductive to grind out every session, you know, to make that face every time you get under the bar, you know, and go to fail and do a lot of these things that are just too strenuous. A lot of the things I like to compare myself to Tiger Woods. You know, why is he a great golfer? Does he smash the shit out of the ball every single time he touches that ball? Floyd Mayweather, best boxer in the world, love him or hate him. Has a game plan when he trains. He doesn't just go for a big overhand right knockout punch every single time he throws a punch. Yet people come into the gym and that's how they feel they should be training. No pain, no gain, go to fail every set, grind out, otherwise you're just not working hard enough. Well, you know, it's taken me many, actually probably about 10 years of making mistakes in the gym to realize that's not the best way of doing it.

[Speaker] So let's go into that metamorphosis, right? So you were 63 kilos, How old were you when you were 63 kilos?

I met my wife 17 years ago, I was 20 years old. So I'm 37 now. So it's getting old now. You can round me up to 40 now, so I'm gonna own that one. But yeah, 63 kilos, I'm now 100 and— I compete in the 110 kilo class and I'm the same height as I was back then. So I was quite skinny.

So how much would you weigh, like say today? You eating up?

Right now I'm about 103 kilograms. Okay. To be honest with you, the weight that you guys ever see, like that face there, that's a 110 kilogram head. That's me, I eat up to my competition because actually I'm not hugely comfortable walking around at that body weight all year round. So right now, if I stepped on the scales, I'd be about 103, 104 kilograms. Yeah, and I'm kind of comfortable there.

'Cause it's quite a profound statement, that's why I kind of wanted to start and launch into this kind of first up, is because I know for me, myself, and plenty of people watching this on YouTube or listening to it on iTunes and everyone in the audience, you know, I've certainly been there. Most people be there, it's like, I gotta grind it out, I gotta lift it, I gotta get this, and if it's not hard, I'm not really working. And it's been more recently, I've been working with, I'm not sure if you know Gus Cook, if he's watching this from Lifters League, and yeah, a lot of the stuff has been really easy, but then a lot of my lifts, it's coming up better, my technique's better, the weights that used to be hard are now flying up, I feel a lot better. And when you said that, there was a thing of, oh shit, this is actually why. So how did you, what was the pivotal moment where you realized? Was it a mentor? Was it like a powerlifter who said, hey man, you gotta stop going to broke?

It was, a lot of the things that I do come from experience. I spend a lot of the time under the barbell and I'm lucky enough to be in a position where I have people working at my company, working in my business. So my day will usually entail rocking up at the gym, having my breakfast brought to me, eat my food, go train at my leisure, and the only reason I stop training is because I'm hungry at that point. And at that time I have someone bring out my next meal. And then if I haven't finished my first session, I'll do my next session after that. So, you know, a lot of the things that I learn in my life absolutely come from education, but mainly come from experience. So I guess the experience that I had was injuries that stopped me from being able to progress. And the only way that I was absolutely able to train was to not train as hard. Because if I tried to train hard, everything would hurt. So, you know, using that approach, I started realizing I was actually getting stronger and I was actually rehabilitating my injuries and I was starting to move better and I was stronger than I ever was before. And as a result of lifting heavier weights, I was building more muscle. As a result of having more muscle mass, I had a better metabolic rate and I was actually getting leaner. What year was this? This was probably when my daughter was born. So she's 8 years old. That's when I kind of snapped out of it. And I realized that I wanted to kind of be good at something. You know, this, for those of you who've heard me speak before, this is my interim job. I was told that there's no money in the fitness industry. So a best friend of mine, while I was trying to find my real job, and I'm still trying to find my real job, he told me, come and, you know, do your courses and be PT with me up until you get your dream job. And I thought, okay, I've got nothing else better to do, so why don't I just do that? So anyhow, I realized after, I don't know, about, I've been in the industry for 15 years, so the last 8 years of that is when I started like knuckling down. But before that, I was realizing, and you guys probably know the same, that the hourly rate is probably a lot higher than what a lot of, you know, people come out of university degrees with, you know, in the offices, you know, the important jobs and the important people. And I got to wear t-shirts and sneakers, you know, exactly what I'm wearing now. And I thought maybe this is a pretty cool job. And what happens What's going to happen to me if I get really good at this job? I don't know, let's just see. So when I had my daughter, I got married, and my wife comes from— and so do I as well, my mum raised us and my wife's parents, very successful families that have work ethic in the blood. And so for my in-laws to look at me, I wanted respect. And I had to earn that respect by showing that I was fit to marry their daughter. Okay, so I wanted to be good at what I did. So that was the point when I had that child, when I got married, that was the point where I kind of took everything really, really seriously. And that's how I guess I became a fanatic with everything that I'm doing. But you know, going back to the original question, how did you figure out, you know, that grinding away, you know, you prefer to lift light weights or make light heavy weights feel light, yeah, it's just through injuries and not being able to lift the heavy weights. And as a consequence, I'm lifting heavy weights.

[Speaker] So was there a significant injury that prompted you to go, right, this way doesn't work?

[Speaker] It's a small injury, but it was enough to be debilitating enough to not allow me to train the way I wanted to train. So basically, I don't know how good you guys are with anatomy, it was called greater trochanteric bursitis bilaterally. So basically you've got your femur, this bone that sits on the side of the femur, that's your greater trochanter. Over the top of that sits a soft sac, it's called a bursa. When that gets inflamed, it's very painful. So it's the only time I've ever had any type of MRI or assessment from a doctor. I don't go to doctors because I don't want to know what's wrong with me. But this time it was actually debilitatingly painful, like it hurt me to walk upstairs, that was the quadricep pain that I was experiencing. And you know, if it hurts to walk upstairs, you definitely can't squat. And that was my problem, I couldn't squat. And I wanted to be good at squatting because I quite value that exercise. So that took me off squatting for a year. And, you know, every time I came back to try and train, I'd always try and train heavy again because if it wasn't heavy, it wasn't training. And the only way that I was able to train was when I just went through the motions and just did the movements and didn't lift the heavy weight and then I was able to actually move without pain for the first time.

[Speaker] So that's your experience and then how did you go, right, that's the idea, I'm gonna train easier, I mean, and then you, you— because yeah, if you walk me through the process, did you stumble across it and go, right, I'm going to train at a 60 RM or 60%, or— and then going from that of your personal experience to, hey, wait a minute, I'm going to try that with my client. And then, because that's also a leap too, to go, okay, this is working for me, now I'm going to apply it to my client who's, say, average. And then the leap to, I'm going to apply this exact methodology to a world-class athlete. So can you walk us through that?

So I've been lucky enough to I just posted it this morning, actually Ernie Lillybridge Senior, 4 years ago I met him, 4 years ago today I met him. He's the father of Eric Lillybridge, they're arguably the strongest powerlifting family in the world. And it was fitting that I saw that photo, he posted it just as a reminder on Facebook, you know those ones how they pop up. And I thought, wow, this is really fitting because this is a huge part of my progress as a coach and as an athlete. Was the day that I met these guys, what they changed for me. They had such a huge emphasis. These are the best guys in the world. And I saw how they trained. And the father was such a caring coach. I took so much from that guy. So many valuable lessons, not just academically.

Let us backtrack. So, did they come out to Australia? Did you go do a private internship with them? How did you cross paths?

Yeah, they came to Australia. There was a world championship. I was the president, sorry, not the president, the state representative for a powerlifting federation. It was called CAPO. And that was, I was a New South Wales state representative and I was close to the Australian president. And he asked me if I could sponsor one of the athletes. And, you know, I could do seminars with them and I had to host them and look after them. And various other coaches around Sydney would do the same to all the other various athletes. And, you know, he recommended that I paired up with Eric Lilliebridge. So it was kind of by accident that we formed such a great relationship because his dad wasn't meant to come with him either. But that's who I kind of sat in the front seat of the car with whenever we drove around, and that's who we were just— I was speaking to mainly, it was actually his dad. Eric was in the back seat with his girlfriend kind of smooching in the back the whole time. But that's how I met them, I brought them out so that he could compete in the World Championships in Sydney in 2014. And since then I've had such a great relationship, we've had a business relationship as well, we help each other, he's coached me at powerlifting competitions, helped me tremendously in so many ways. But one thing that I saw about him was his emphasis on lifting technique and never going to failure. He had his son performing amazing lifts for an audience like this. So a lot of the times I used to, I've been an educator for a while as well, and I used to have a lot of my fantastic lifters kind of as a sideshow, you know, performing a max squat. I don't know if you guys are familiar with my wife and her sister, she's got a sister called Dinny J, 50 kilo girl who can squat 140 kilograms. And you know, we used to, whenever we're demonstrating the squat, it's like, okay, this is a little girl half your size squatting more than you, pay attention please. And it really, you know, it stood out to a lot of people and it was very successful and it was a great way of getting a message across. And Ernie, when he brought Eric out, did the same thing but except with the guy that was, you know, lifting 480 kilograms on the squat. So, it's a completely different level. You know, literally the best in the world. And one day, for example, we did a deadlift seminar and he was scheduled to deadlift 400 kilograms for the crowd because, I'll just do a round of hands, how many people here have seen anyone live pick up 400 kilograms from the ground? Hand right up. We got one hand, usually I get zero hands. Who was that? I was here at the time.

He was at your seminar.

Right, okay. So, it's something that doesn't, quite happen quite often, right? And Eric was looking phenomenal, he's the best lifter in the world, and I'm sure he would have smoked it, but he got to his last warm-up at 360 kilograms and he threw it up. Like, I don't know how fast you'd expect to see 360 kilograms move, but it moved fast. And for his dad, he wasn't satisfied, he said, we're gonna stop it right here, he's not gonna move 400 kilograms safely, there's a risk because he's not performing. And it's like, hey, he's performing all right, but not at the level he wants everything to be. The analogy we use is a swish in basketball, no grind. That's not how you get stronger, that's how we increase the risk of injury. And I saw that level of care that he, and it wasn't just that he stopped him at 400 kilograms, it was a whole process of how he warmed him up, the attention to detail, so much care that he had for his athlete. Which was his son, that just, it stood out so clearly to me as, wow, this is why these guys are the best. Academics, yeah, he's great, he's got a lot of experience and he's a really intelligent guy, but that's not where it was at. That's not why Eric was the best in the world. It was the care and the attention to detail that made him as good as what he is today. So, you know, it's kind of like hanging out with guys that are the best in the world, and it's not just Eric and Ernie Lilliebridge. Something that I noticed, you know, after I kind of got in with the cool crew, so these are the strongest guys in the world, started speaking to other guys in the cool crew, so other world record holders in different countries, at different disciplines, and started realizing that every single person at that level trains the same. No one trains to fail, no one grinds out in their sessions, you know, if you see someone missing a lift, it's just wrong. You know, you guys had Andrew Lock in here not too long ago, he told me a funny story. At his gym, he trains with one of the best bench pressers Australia's—

[Speaker] Ange Delatti.

[Speaker] Ange Delatti. And you know, Andrew was telling me, he said, last week someone missed a lift, Ange saw it, he said, "You're a dickhead," and just walked off. And I just thought, that is just brilliant. You know, and it's a hard thing to say to people, especially novice lifters, because to be completely honest with you, we bend the rules a little bit with novice lifters. A lot of people don't know their potential at that point. So you have to kind of push them, within reason, but it takes time to be able to see that.

So let's just say, you know, there's a lot of coaches here in the room, okay, and they want to get to that level, they want to be like Sebastian, they want to be like the Lilliebridge family, right? What are you looking for at that level of breakdown? What things, what cues, are there some takeaways that you could give?

It's a lot of attention to detail with how the body moves. When you know how the body moves, you'll see the breakdown. A lot of the times it comes from bar speed, It's like when you see a basketball hit a swish, you hear it just go, and that's the sound that it makes when it hits nothing but net. And it's the same thing with how the body moves, it's a sweet spot. The analogy that I use is a basketball. If I'm walking down the street bouncing a basketball, you don't know how many meters per second that basketball is moving, but you'd be able to tell very quickly if there's not enough air in that ball by the way it's bouncing. That's how the body moves and that's how it should move. Under all of these loads. Controlled, tight, bang, it should hit a sweet spot and kind of the body will bounce. As close to a basketball analogy as I can find, but that's how the body moves. And when you, you know, at that level, you start to recognize these things. Every lifter moves at a different speed as well, so it's a matter of knowing your lifter. Some people hit a sweet spot and it's still a slow move. But you learn these things very quickly.

Absolutely. Do you have any lifters where, 'cause I know sometimes this happens a lot with my training, is my first set won't look that great, my second set won't look that great, my third set, boom. Do you take any of that into consideration of lifters, I suppose, neurally waking up in terms of their sets?

Absolutely, and this is, I guess this is part of, I know you're gonna ask me because everyone does, what is your strength system? That is part of my strength system. It's like, if I saw an athlete like that, I would teach them to to be a little bit different to that. So I guess this is another take-home point that I got from the Lilliebridge Method. They talk about, you know, in a session of Eric Lilliebridge or his dad or the whole family or any of their athletes, they'll work you up to a one rep max. And that's it, and then they'll do, so if it's a squat session, you work up to a heavy single squat and then you'll do back down work on deadlifts and light stuff and bodybuilding stuff, stuff what makes you feel good, but it's teaching the body the skill of lifting the heaviest weight possible for 1 rep, not doing set after set. So his theory, which is absolutely completely valid, and he's validated that many times, is that if you're doing, you know, 5 sets of something, you're teaching yourself to hold back so that you have enough energy for 5 sets. And that's something that I've seen with a lot of fantastic athletes and great lifters in the gym that are performing things like, you know, 5 sets of something and then the next, then they'll move on to the next exercise and they'll do another 5 sets. And they've conditioned their body to be able to not spend everything at once and to be able to last 'til the end of the session. In a sport like powerlifting, that's useless. You need to teach yourself how to give everything right now. So if you're an athlete of mine, in my opinion, there's a few different things that I could do to make you have your first set as your best set of the day. And that's what I'll be working towards if I was to train you.

So with, say, the Lilliebridge, their method, that's not your method though in terms of, you don't prescribe to the—

No, absolutely not. Their method is very different. So for example, their base method is training 3 times per week and actually leading up to, you know, the biggest powerlifting competition in the world, I saw Eric say that he only trained 2 times per week for this. So they're all about These guys are lifting heavy weights, heavier than I can imagine, heavier than I can touch, and therefore it needs more recovery. So for these guys, if you, general population followed 2 times a week of training, you're gonna get a very minimal result, if any at all. The reason why they're able to progress with that methodology is because they are so strong and they need that much recovery. So, people talk about total tonnage, of a set, you know, a lot of people, everyone has different types of loading parameters and how they like to progress with their programming from week to week. And that is a term that I see thrown around a lot is total tonnage. These guys' total tonnage in one rep is most, is more than most people do in a whole set or a whole workout, you know? So it's like they need the exact same amount of recovery from that one single as people do from a whole week of training. Because they're able to work to that level and push their nervous systems as high as it goes to maximum.

So I know that the Leverage family really helped you improve your squat, you're saying by 100 kilos, and they really helped you—

172.5.

Yeah, amazing. And they've really helped you out in a lot of ways with your powerlifting, but yeah, I'm really curious as to why, like, your personal training, not say your clients, as to why, like, what was the deciding factor for you not to model all of your training the way they train?

Exactly that. I'm not as strong as Eric.

Okay.

So, if he does a set and depending on your levels of strength, so a lot of people, a common question that's asked is how many, how much rest do you need after various lifts? So, I've seen Charles Poliquin, for example, he wrote an article of the ideal frequency for each lift based on how demanding it is and how much recovery is required. So he wrote somewhere in there that the deadlift, for a good deadlift session, you need about, I think it was roughly around 10 days of recovery from deadlift session to deadlift session, if it was a good enough deadlift session. I'm not saying that he's completely wrong, but I find that not everyone is lifting at that level where they deserve to have 10 days of recovery. And some people are even stronger. So like for example, I train a guy that's stronger than, Eric now, and that's the guy who's currently number 1 in the world. His name's Hafthor Julius Bjornsson, he's the world's strongest man. And for his deadlift session, he needs 14 days of recovery. His whole programming is a deload every second week. So, he does heavy week, light week, heavy week, light week, because he's too strong to work at that level week after week, his body just won't handle it. So, I forget what was the question, I got sidetracked.

[Speaker] So, you, that's okay, it's good. The Lilliebridge family have made a massive impact on you and their philosophy, I suppose, is not, I suppose, antithesis to yours, but it is very different in the sense that they're building up guys to a 1 rep max and then saying go home. Now, obviously not everyone's at that level, but you know, I think you're getting at that level, you're at least approaching that level. So is their philosophy on training something that you were going to implement in the future when you get strong enough? Absolutely.

You're right. Yeah, definitely. I think it's a brilliant method, and it's something that if I was strong enough, I would benefit from it greatly. But I just don't believe that I'm strong enough to need a 14-day recovery.

What's strong enough?

Well, these guys are 480-kilo squatters. I'm a 370-kilogram squatter. So, you know, for me, it took me— I won't even compare myself to them, so you guys would know the difference. That's close to 500 kilograms. There's not many— there's There's 6 men on the planet that has ever squatted 480 kilograms and plus.

So say someone like Eric, right? In the average session with Eric, would he be going to like say 450 every session in terms of squats?

No, no, no. Interestingly, you know, a lot of people think, you know, I see the term, you know, warm up with your max and all of these things. You know, it's fair to say for a lot of people, yeah, but I don't coach Eric, so I won't use him as the example, but Thor, for example, you know, he'll lift heavier than Eric actually, you know, like his deadlift sessions, he's over 400 kilograms most of the time, he reps out 400 kilograms. And he— what was the question again?

It's okay.

I've just got so many things that are happening at once.

Yeah, it's all right, I know we're bouncing around a bit in this interview, we're gonna come back to a lot of things and that's completely fine. So, where we can go to now, 'cause obviously you are the strength coach of the World's Strongest Man for those who don't know, which is Thor Bjornsson. With training someone like that, what does that do for your psychology?

Now I remember what the original question was, and I will go back to that. It teaches me a lot about human potential, and it teaches me a lot about something that I say when I get a class of people and we're learning how to lift, I kind of qualify the class and I say, right now I've seen someone lift 500 kilograms, 520 kilograms off their back. Ground. Trust me, your shit's not gonna impress me. My shit doesn't impress me, okay? So don't try and do that. And that's what I— that's the approach that I used to take. It's like, you know, you see a new crew of people, you've got to try and impress them and lift as heavy as you can and all these things. And I use that to teach people to back off. You're not Thor Bjornsson, and you're never going to be. The guy's twice the size of you. Stop trying to push yourself to these levels. And after seeing what is humanly possible and how he reaches those goals, it allows me to realize how many people are doing it wrong. So this was the original question, warming up with your max. Thor Bjornsson, majority of the year, lifts weights lighter than what I lift, okay? It's only when he peaks, so that was the question that you asked, was Eric Lilliebridge, does he train, you know, 400 kilograms every session? No, he doesn't. The body doesn't like that. You're beating yourself up a lot, and you're beating— you're loading your spine a lot, and you're beating your nervous system up a lot. The body needs rest. So, um, that's why I said I don't train Eric, so I don't know his program, you know, exactly. I know Thor Bjornsson's program exactly, and a lot of the times, like, when he starts with his deadlift programming, he'll be on, you know, 240 kilograms for his first deadlift session, you know. His next, uh, Today, he's gotta deadlift 420 kilograms. So, to get to 420 kilograms, he doesn't deadlift 400 kilograms every session. It's a linear progression, okay? It takes time, you've gotta build the base. And if he beats himself up like that every week, every year, there will be a shelf life and it will be expired very shortly.

[Speaker] So, onto Thor, for example, how did you come up with these training methodologies? Or how did you formulate your philosophies in the sense that, You know, you discovered something new for yourself. It's okay, the heavyweight thing is not working for me, it's busting me up. You go lighter, you realize, okay, there's progress in this, this is feeling good. I mean, at that point where things are feeling good, you know, I know personally a lot of people's inclination is to go, all right, let's go start going heavy now. So you fought through that, you start lifting heavy, and you notice, well, shit, we're on to something. But then it almost seems that you've developed some like, I'm not gonna say unique, but it kind of is unique principles in the sense that, like, let's, let's be real, you train, uh, like 1% of the world, even less, like 0.1% of the strongest guys in the world. So at that level, you're creating systems. And then the unique thing about you, and this is what I see, the unique thing about you is you look back from— this is legitimately the best in the world, and this is 0.01% of people, and most people just aren't born the way Thor was born and they'll never be at that level no matter how hard they try and that's just not— you can say it's not fair but that's just the way the cookie crumbles, right? He's just genetic superior in every single way. So, you've gone to that level, you look back and you go, but there was a point where you weren't at that level. So, how did you formulate these ideas and then you get to the point where you're training Thor and now looking back going, right, here are the philosophies that we should follow to get strong?

[Speaker] So I've been fortunate enough to be in a position where I've met some pretty cool people around the world. And I'll introduce a new name that you may have heard of. His name is Alex Simon and his nickname is The God. He, I met him when I was at Fitness First. So this is well before I opened my own gym. I used to work at Fitness First for the first 10 years of my career. And my brother, I was working with him, he said, He said, "Dude, you've gotta see this guy. He's an 18-year-old kid and he weighs 130 kilograms. He's a freak." And I thought, I've gotta see this guy, that's bullshit. 130 kilograms, that's freak show. And so I met Alex and yeah, he was a freak. He wasn't muscular in any way, he was just a big dude. He didn't train. He just had thick ankles, his feet, people describe his feet, you know you say, "Foot's this big." They say, "His foot's this big." He's a really unique guy, like he's huge, right? And it's like, I don't know what it is, but I gotta help this guy in some way, whatever he's doing, I wanna be there and watch it because he's a freak. So I worked with him from when he was squatting, you know, this is a silly thing, but the first time he stepped in the gym, he was able to squat over 200 kilograms, he was able to bench press 50 kilo dumbbells the first time he touched weights for 20 reps. It's ridiculous, that is a genetic freak also. So, you know, he deadlifted 300 kilograms in my gym the first time he deadlifted. Actually, I took him from a 220 kilogram deadlift. He couldn't pick it up off the ground. And that's why he liked me, because he had his coach that was telling him, okay, do this, do that, and you know, and he'd try and do it and he wouldn't get 220 kilograms off the ground. And then he came to me and he said, what am I doing wrong? And I just, I just, not the approach that I take now, but I told him he's being a little fucking bitch. I said, look at the size of you, dude, I can fucking smoke that weight, are you serious? Go and pick it up, man. And he did 10 reps of it. That was at Fitness First. That was before he'd ever trained before. Like he was just, you know, to pick up 220 kilograms deadlift for 10 reps, never trained, he's a freak. I took him from there to, to number 1 in Australia. Through all of the people that I met, through all my education, through training myself, through beating myself up, we did a lot of mistakes with him as well, but he knew no better. And at that point, he was almost my guinea pig. And he was lucky that I, like, I was my guinea pig before him, but he was my guinea pig for the big guys. Different principles apply when you're lifting heavier weights. So it's like the Lilliebridge Method, I can't follow that completely because I'm not strong enough. To deserve to only train 2 times per week. So, you know, I was able to use guys like Alex Simon and my experience with working with Eric Lilliebridge to come to Thor and say, like, I know what to do with you, man, you know. Especially if— this is getting a little bit sidetracked, but this is the story of how I met Thor. I was able to bench press the same amount as him, which is a huge reason for my success as a coach as well, is because I lift so well, a lot of the big guys, they look at me and they listen to me, because they know I know what I'm talking about.

[Speaker] So on that, I mean, I would assume, and I think it's a correct assumption, that you put everything into your training.

[Speaker] Yes.

[Speaker] Right? So how does being around someone like Thor, meeting Alex Simon, how does it not demoralize you at the same time? It's like, dude, I've worked my whole life to get as strong as you, and this is, you know, you're picking up the weight that I've trained my ass off, and you're just picking it up like that and making fun of it with 10 reps and this is my max, like how does it psychologically feel?

[Speaker] So, I wanna be the best. Let's get this clear, right? I love, I am so competitive. But at the same time, I have coached so many of my competitors and given them the exact same everything, training models, everything, and helped them with more care than I've given myself. I wanna be the best against the best. I don't wanna just be the best and, you know, hide things from people and say, I've got this secret and I'm gonna beat you because of that. If I'm the best, I wanna genuinely know I'm the best. And I've coached so many people that were, I was here, they were here, and I've coached them to be here many times. And actually the feeling that I get from doing that is actually better than me just taking myself there. To know that that's my career and to know I get such an amazing feeling to know that I've succeeded with other people, it makes me think that I'm good at my job. Which is a really high importance to me. And so, yeah, I've had to detach myself from all of that a long, long, long time ago. And now I tell all of these guys, you know how many guys I've gotten to be stronger than me? There's your goal. And they look at that and they realize that there's no competition between us. Like, we're all working together. And yeah, I'm probably, like I said, for once I'm the big guy in the room, you know, like I tip your table and I'm gonna take that, man, you know. But everyone I hang out with, you know, as I said, he was 130 kilograms the first day I met him. He got to 180 kilograms. Like, these guys are freaks, you know. Thor Bjornsson. Who got to 100?

Alex.

Alex "The God" Simon, yeah. When he became, you know, so this was 5 years after I met him. We took him to number 1 in Australia of all time.

Just to quantify for the podcast and the interview, number 1 Australia in what exactly?

In powerlifting competitions. So he totaled, the number 1 who reclaimed his title, so it's a guy called Odell Manuel. He's an absolute legend, he's a technician, he's a strong guy, he's a nice guy, everything you want from a champion, that's Odell Manuel. And, uh, yeah, Alex Simon in his second powerlifting competition ever, he got 1,077.5 kilograms to be number 1 in Australia all time. No one in Australia has ever done that. He did that in his second competition. He then moved on, he retired from powerlifting after that, he didn't like it, Which is crazy because it's like, damn, you know, if I was good at something, I'd wanna keep doing it, you know? Like, he could have been the best in the world within 12 months after that. And a lot of people will hear me say that and go, ugh. He could have been the best in the world if he continued for 12 months after that. The guy is a freak. That guy has the same gift that Thor does, but just on a different level.

[Speaker] So can I just get into the psychology of that, right? You've got a guy who, I mean, You're obviously passionate about lifting, you're passionate about powerlifting, and you're also passionate about seeing people succeed. I think that's part of the magic of why you're such a successful coach. So you have a guy who you know, geez, you can be number 1 in the world in 12 months, and he says to you, "Nah, bro, I don't wanna do this." How do you, are you going, "Look, man, you gotta do this, you can be great, you can go down in history," or are you going, "Look, I respect your opinion," or like, how does that work?

[Speaker] It's a lot of both. And the thing is, there's a lot of reasons that you have to understand that comes with being the best in the world. So 180 kilograms is, for me, remember what I said, I don't like being 110 kilograms because it's uncomfortable. Alex Simon, leading up to his competition, wouldn't sleep a single minute because he was too big. If anyone knows anyone that's huge, they have a CPAP device. They cannot sleep, okay? They suffer from sleep apnea. Sleep apnea, right? And they don't have to be 180 kilos to do that. He was petrified to doze off because he'd close off his air supply and choke and not wake up. He would sleep sitting up in his chair. He had to, that's the only place that he would be able to get some type of comfort. And that's not a life that he wanted. So for me, I was pushing him up until, like that's the argument that I was having with him to become number 1 in Australia. Like, you're there, man, come on, keep on going kind of thing. And then once he achieved it, it's just like, I'm just not doing it anymore. And you know, there's a few things about trying to tell a 180-kilo dude what to do, especially with an MMA background. You know, he's got a fighting record of 5 professional MMA fights, all, yeah, he won them all by knockout in the first 30 seconds of the fight. He touches them and they go to sleep, literally.

How much does he weigh now?

He's about between 150 to 160 kilograms.

So, still monster.

He's trying to cut weight. He's just, I don't know what's gonna happen, but the guy's just naturally massive. It's ridiculous. He stopped touching weights as well. Like, he had to stop doing weights because he didn't want it. He wanted his muscles to shrink. He needed to shrink. His goal was to be in the UFC. The heaviest weight class in the UFC is 120 kilograms. So he had 180 to 120, he had 60 kilos to lose. So yeah, that's what he did. He quit weights altogether and, you know, dieted and struggled, struggled, got to 150 kilograms with a big, big, big struggle.

That's an amazing insight into the life of a big man. Yeah, absolutely amazing. So here's a different question, but I find it fascinating in terms of What have you learned about strength from going from Thor? So, from Thor's perspective, looking back on the general pop or— I wouldn't even say general pop, let's say a lifter like myself, you know, fairly good but not at an elite level. So, what lessons have you learned from that? And what lessons have you learned from someone who you say coaching a general athlete up to say Thor's lessons? Are there inverse principles? Are there things that still apply? Are they just totally two different beasts and you've got to treat them as such?

Yeah, so no, everyone is the same, and that is we just go in and we work till the body can move perfectly, and if it stops moving perfectly, that's when we stop. Something that I've loved about working with guys so strong is I don't care about the number anymore. You're speaking a different language. I do not understand when you put 400 kilograms on a bar how a human being can do that, but they just can. So now the plates on the side, a lot of people People get intimidated by it. For me, I don't look at that anymore, I don't care what number it is. You could say 240, you could say 340, it would make no difference with how I approached you. We work until you move, so if the number's irrelevant, how we get there is what matters. So, I've got a principle and that is you need to earn the right to add weight to the bar. So let's just say your deadlift was 400 kilograms. If you're not moving 200 kilograms well, you're not allowed put the next plate on. You've gotta do that right before you can put more weight on the bar. And I've had people, you know, I coach other people, not just powerlifters and strongmen. I train a lot of the high-level rugby players as well, NRL. In particular, I'll tell you a story about one of the guys who's considered the strongest NRL player in the country. His name is Marty Tapau, if anyone's ever heard of him. He came to me, the first time I saw him, he was like, he had the same quality that Alex "The God" Simon had, like his feet are this big. His ankles are like that and his knees are like that and it's not like cankles, it's dense bone with muscles on top of it. And it's just like, you're a god, dude. And I said to him, he also walks and his knuckles are touching the ground, he's just huge. And I said to him, so we're deadlifting, great lift, what's your deadlift? And he said 220. And I said, that's wrong. That's just wrong. Like, 220 for a guy like your size, that's just bullshit. First session— this is on YouTube if you guys want to have everything validated, you know, I document everything that I do, you know. First session, he did doubles on 260 kilograms. So I didn't give a shit about his number. That number was wrong. A lot of times when people say their numbers as well, it's like, okay, that's the number that you did with your rules and your warm-up and your technique and all that stuff. It's good to know in the back of my head, but now we're doing something completely different. That could be too high. That number could be way too much for you, you know. But in most cases, I find the opposite. It's like, you know, you're better than that, just trust me. And that's what it has allowed me to see, is let's stop thinking about the number, let's warm the body up properly, let's use perfect technique from the very, very beginning, and now let's see where it gets you. If you start grinding, I stop you. I don't care where that number is. And if you were to see me for the first session, you know, it is an assessment. Every time I see someone for the first time, it is an assessment. That's how I would assess you. I'd work you to the point where I'd see it, I don't even want you to break down. I know it's about to break down, and then I'll take a percentage off. Oh, I shouldn't even say a percentage, you know, maybe a plate or 20 kilos or whatever it is. And then that's where we work. That's where the magic happens. Submaximal, you know, we use the terms now RPE and RIR, so reps in reserve. The idea behind all that, you could stick an RIR or an RPE to translate what I'm doing, but I don't—

So this is a complete podcast, can you just define RPE as well?

So RPE means rate of perceived exertion. Many people use this, some people use it more successfully than others, but the main purpose of using an RPE is basically What you won't see when people are using programs with an RPE is the number 10. RPE 10 means you cannot physically do any more. That's what you're hoping to achieve on competition day. But anyone who successfully uses RPE will be using hardly even 9 RPE, usually 8s and 7s throughout the entire training program to get someone strong enough to do a great RPE 10 on competition day. So that's what RPE means. 1 being so easy, you're just like lying down there is an RPE 1. 10, you physically not possible to lift any more than an RPE 10. Another, you know, great way that people use, you know, their programming principles without giving a load is RIR, reps in reserve. So, you know, with 1 RIR, that means keep going until you know you have 1 rep in the tank. 2 RIR, that's 2 reps in reserve. So you could translate everything that I'm doing with an RIR and an RPE, but I don't actually use those. Okay, what I do is I work people to, it's called mechanical fail and less.

If we can just go into mechanical failure on the, say, squat, bench press, deadlift, just I suppose an overview for the, so the folks kind of really get what we're looking for. You mentioned bar speed before. Obviously with a deadlift, there's a whole thing around neutral spine and you have the elites lifting with more of a rounded back. What are you looking for? Let's start with a deadlift, but when you look at mechanical failure, are you looking at the bar needs to always be close to the shins or they're just doing— you see what they lift in their warm-ups and if it looks different than their warm-ups, you know, you're quitting the rep? Like, are there some key things in each lift that it's, you know, say for example I'm squatting, right? And I'm at a, say, you know, say 150, right? I'm doing 5 reps and on the last rep my knee comes in a little bit. Are we calling the workout that or are you telling me to stop being a little bitch?

No. I don't ever tell anyone to stop being a little bitch. Unless you're like Simon and you're just fucking 10 times bigger than everyone else and lifting half what they're lifting, it's like, bitch. And they'll receive that very, very, and he did receive that really, really, really well. And then it's like, I'm like, I don't do the no pain, no gain thing. We don't do that. So I kind of tell everyone to kind of be a little bitch. If something hurts, you tell me immediately and we stop. It means we're doing something incorrectly. So, when you understand the way the body works, I work with arguably one of the best rehabilitation specialists in Australia, and you could even say the world.

Andrew Lock, yeah, we had him on episode 2.

He's a really unique guy, really intelligent guy as well, and I work very closely with him. So we've got, and I have been for a while now, before that I had a great understanding understanding of rehabilitation. So I do have a great understanding of these things, I'm just, I'm not just winging it or guessing it, but I kind of know where it's okay to kind of break form a little bit, once or twice, not repetitively. And not to go to those points. So if you did, you know, your whole workout, set of 5, and the 5th rep your knee came in a little bit, it's like, I could probably just tell you, that's what happened, fix it. And you'd most likely be able to fix it. Okay, so sometimes it's like people are overthinking things, you know, this is where it's breaking down because it's a weakness in glute med, glute— I don't know. Just tell the lifter, this is what happened. Or my favorite tool is a video. Show the lifter, see this, you've got to not do that on the next set, let's see how we go. And if you continue to do that, that's when it's too heavy.

Okay, so switching gears just I suppose a tiny bit, but still on track. Let's talk about Thor.

Yeah.

What's happening in Game of Thrones?

You know the funny thing, this is me, I'm such a bad friend, I've not seen a single episode.

Oh wow. So, for those who know, Thor is the Mountain in Game of Thrones. Hands up who likes Game of Thrones. Almost everyone, amazing TV show, fantastic, and he just plays such a, such a great role, amazing role. So, how did you guys meet?

So, I was training in my gym We've got a gym in North Sydney, Base Gym. I run it with my wife and her sister. They've got a women's only business and they work alongside with my business and they're called the Base Body Babes. And when I train, you know, they look after me and they leave me alone, they let me be and they'll come and interrupt me if it's something worth interrupting. And you know, one day I was bench pressing and Dini, that's my little sister-in-law, she walked over to me and she said, "Guess what? We just got a phone call from," whatever company it was, It was SodaStream was the company. And they want to do an event and they're bringing Hafthor Bjornsson to come and train and they want us to train with him. And I said, get me in that room. Right, not because I wanted to be his coach, that was well beyond what I thought was possible. I just wanted to hang out with this guy, like that's the strong— well, he wasn't the strongest guy in the world at that point, but he was the biggest strongman, he was a freak. Everyone knows, you don't have to know who he is and you see him and it's like, I wanna I'll see what this guy's about. So it's, get me in this room, Dini. She said, okay, done. Let me speak to them. So the way that SodaStream worked was they got industry influencers around Australia. So Base Body Babes have a social media account where they've got over 600,000 followers. So they've got multiple people with big followings and they wanted to get them all in a room and have a workout with Hafthor Bjornsson. So they all take photos and they all reshare on their Instagram. And that's how they market their product. So, Baseball D-Babes, get me in the room with him. Great. They said, um, so—

Side question, at that point, how many— because I know now you've got over 100,000 Instagram followers— how many at that stage did you have?

I probably had about 50,000. Okay. Yeah, so, you know, within Australia for what I did, males, um, I don't want to generalize, but, you know, my ass isn't as nice as the girls, and maybe that's what it is, but they they have been in the industry for a third of the time that I have, and their following just went whooshka, you know, because, you know, they're a little bit better looking than me. Maybe that's what it is, I don't know what it is. But, you know, my following for a male powerlifter personal trainer, it was okay, you know, 50,000, that's pretty good, you know. I had a bit of influence, I was able to, you know, run a pretty successful business with that much of a following. And so anyhow, so they came back and they said, okay, SodaStream want to speak to you. I said, alright. So I got on the phone with these guys and they said, okay, would you be interested in hosting the event? We've just done our research, we realize who you are and what you do. And I was just like, my wife in the background, she said, don't you effing dare do this for free. It's a It's a professional venture, they're going to pay you to do this. I'm like, don't you effing dare ruin this opportunity for me. Anyway, she said, get off the phone, let me do the rest. So she negotiated, did the professional thing, and actually I got paid to run the event with Thor. You know, I'm not ripping anyone off, like I offer pretty good service I think, and we did, we provided a fantastic service and a great product for SodaStream. They came to our gym, you know, it's like this, It's our own thing, we shut it off, no one else is allowed, you know. And, you know, I spoke Thor's language. So they went to other coaches that own gyms around Australia, around Sydney, and they offered them, do you wanna run the event? And they're like, shit, I wouldn't know what to do, where to start. Like, that guy's up here, I don't know what to do. So anyway, so that's why people said, Sebastian's your man. And when they came to me, it's like, I know how to speak his language. They said, he doesn't speak English very well. I said, I've got a leaker that speaks his language. And anyhow, so he came in and, you know, really big guy, just a man of stature. Has anyone ever seen him in real life? Okay, he's a freak. And I just, like, he wasn't, he didn't have a smile or anything like that, you know. And I just said to him, you know, I introduced myself, I said, let me take you around the gym and let's discuss what we're going to do today. So I showed him the exercises, I showed him what I was going to do, and all of a sudden he had a smile from ear to ear. And I'll speak in his language, you know. Anyhow, halfway through the seminar, one of the exercises that I was demonstrating, which I'm gonna do for everyone here today, was the bench press. And, you know, my job was to showcase Thor, which was really, really easy to do. So I said to the class, okay, I'm gonna ask Thor how much he bench presses. Thor, what's your best bench press? And he said 230 kilograms. And I said, okay, let's I'll tell you guys what that is, that's 5 of these blue plates each side, plus a 5 kilo on each hand. Put your hand up if you can do that. Everyone's just like, "Ah." And my wife goes, "You can." And I'm just like, "That's not where I was headed." You know, I didn't want to do that, but I can. Anyway, so I saw Thor in the background just, this is what I saw. I was thinking, "Ah, shit, I didn't mean to do that." to do any of this, you know. Anyhow, then he said, Sebastian, do you mind if I try the technique? And I was like really chuffed, like, yeah, get in here. Long story short, he bench-pressed 235 kilograms for 2 reps and then 240 kilograms with this new technique. First time he did it, right? It's like, okay. We sat down afterwards, he said, I need you to be my coach.

That's your sales pitch right there, hey?

Right.

Done.

Do you know what I mean? And I was just like— and I just thought, how do I play this? You know, like, at first, for the first like 3 seconds, like, okay, play it cool. She's like, oh, you know, I'll see if I can make the time, you know, pretty busy. And then I said, you know, cut the shit, man, this is the fucking man. So I just said, listen, this is the biggest opportunity in my career, and that I've ever had and probably ever will have. I'm— I'll do what it takes. He said, will you travel overseas? I said, yes, for you, 100%. And that was it. So he went home that day, and I didn't hear from— like, I messaged him after that, you know, saying, so great to meet you, all these things, followed up, and he didn't reply, right? And I'm thinking, too good to be true. Anyway, A month later, he messaged me and he said, "I'm gonna go to Bangkok to film for Kickboxer, the new movie." You know, the Van Damme movie? They did the remake of it. He said, "I'm gonna film there and I'm gonna train there for World's Strongest Man. Before that, I'm doing Europe's Strongest Man. Would you be able to come with me?" It's like, yes.

[Speaker] So, that's an amazing story and also amazing accomplishment of goal and I dare say more than you thought you'd achieve coming into the industry. How has that changed you as a person? Because I feel like it's almost a story of, this is what I'll achieve, you know, open up my gym, you know, train a couple of clients, win a couple of powerlifting shows, be pretty elite, and then the reality stretch of, no, no, you're actually destined for this, son. What has that done for your psyche, personally, on a personal level?

It's so flattering, I'll tell you right now, you know, from a confidence perspective, it's just amazing. I always think about it, it's like I can't imagine anyone who would have complimented what I do than the strongest man in the world, who's not only, something I heard from Charles Poliquin, people would rather be coached by Beyoncé's trainer than Michael Jordan's trainer. Okay, that's just how it is. In the world of money making and all these things, that trainer is seen as better. It's like he's not, or she is not, Because this is an athlete, that's just booty. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But Thor's the best of both worlds. Thor's Hollywood because of Game of Thrones. Like, he's one of the most popular dudes around. Like, that's one of the most popular shows going around, even though I haven't seen it. And that's the biggest freak show of a beast ever. It's like, it doesn't get better than this. So what's that done for me? Oh, just so much in so many ways. And he loves that as well, and he always asks, me, you know, does it help? Does it help when I tag you and all these things? And I'm— I don't bullshit, I don't sit there and go, oh yeah. When he tags me, like the first time he tagged me, it's like, you know, climb up 1,000 followers. And then, you know, my social media has climbed up a lot from him. I'm now seen, I've been given a fantastic reputation. A lot of people, it's going around, you know, this is the best strength coach in the world because he trains the strongest man in the world. And I don't— I didn't train him when he was the strongest man in the world, He wasn't the strongest man in the world, and working with him is when he got there. And Thor's like, he's very generous with it, but I don't bullshit him either. Like, I thank him profusely for what he's done for my reputation, and vice versa. We're just so appreciative of each other and what we've done for each other. But, you know, I went to a gym in Perth the other day, and there's a guy there that I know. If he's hopefully he's watching this, his name's Yanni. The first time I met him, he said to me, you know, I've got to be honest with you. I'm about to use some bad language here. He said, before I met you, I thought you were a real cunt, you know. He goes, but you're not. I'm like, that is the sweetest thing anyone's ever said to me.

Thank you, thank you.

And he said, and if anyone says anything different, they're full of shit. I thought, oh, okay. I don't know if I want that look where everyone doesn't think I'm a nice person or whatever. But that's what I have heard from a lot of people, that when they meet me, that I'm actually, like, I don't know how nice this is, but I'm not one of those C-word things. I won't say it because there's—

See you next Tuesday.

See you next Tuesday. But I don't need, I don't want to be seen as that, you know, like I still like to help people. I still like to give back. And that's something that I've learned from a lot of my mentors in the past. Like somewhere, someone that we've been educated by is Charles Poliquin, and that's something that he did. Before, you know, of course he has a bit, he had a business of educating people. He's given so much free information away and he's helped so many people without them even knowing it. And it's not just him. It's a lot of the people that I've seen that have impacted me so much is I haven't actually paid for a lot of that information. And they're very helpful. And that's something that I aspire to be. And that's what I do a lot of. If you, if anyone follows me on social media, You'll see how much free stuff I give away. And it's because of that. I don't wanna just all of a sudden be one of those people that, yeah, okay, I'm training Thor, you know, you have to pay for my services every time you see me now. I don't wanna be like that, you know. I still wanna give back as well, and I get a great achievement. It's a great achievement for me when I see people using my techniques, following my principles, you know, and being better because of, I don't even know them, but they've seen something that I've taught and they're a better athlete because of me, it's like, that's an amazing feeling.

It does seem to me that you have reshaped the landmass that is strength in this country quite considerably. People are posting their— the way you squat, the way you bench, the way you do things, it's changed quite dramatically. I suppose it's not how— I suppose the question is, how did you do that in a sense? Did you expect it? It's quite an achievement, you know, to have that much influence over the whole industry. It's become so popular. So was there a thought process on that, or?

Exactly that, what I said, you know, just looking up to the people that I've looked up to. Why did I look up to them? And it's because of their willingness to give for nothing in return. And it's something that I've wanted to be. I admired that in these coaches that I looked up to, and I'd love to be able to say that I give the same in return. But, you know, to be in a position where people can see me. It's largely to thank for people like Thor, who's got a huge account that shares my stuff, but also my wife and her business. They've got a huge social media account, and through working with these guys, it kind of allowed my following to increase. And that's a very big advantage, is more people are able to see me, so therefore I'm able to get the message across. I'll tell you right now, there's some fantastic coaches around the country that I'm not gonna say that I'm better than or they're better than me. Like, there's some great coaches around the country that are doing great things, but they just don't have a following as big. So they're not able to get their message across. But if, that's the beauty of social media. If they did have a huge following, then there'd be more people, you know, doing their techniques as well. Someone that's just walked in the room, Eugene Teo, I see so many people tagging, you know, exercises that he does. Because now he's doing great things and he does the same thing. Giving away information, giving away free stuff, asking for nothing in return. And I think that's what makes you a great person or a great coach or a great influence, how much you're able to help without anything in return.

Yeah, what I like to say is high tides rise all boats.

Yes, exactly.

So I think, you know, you being successful and showing others what is possible in this industry enables other strength coaches to go, wow, like it's almost this animosity between, you know, 'cause you've been successful, oh fuck, Sébastien Vinci, where actually really should be the complete opposite. It's like he was successful doing what you love. He's made it possible for you to do the same. He's the pioneer. He had to shovel way more shit than you're gonna have to shovel because he's the first guy to do it. And I look at, say, like Sir Charles Pollock, who you mentioned before, as that guy who was the pioneer for so much of what you and I are able to do today, whether it's open up a private gym. He was really the first one who said, no, look guys, you can charge whatever you want, you just got to be good. You be good, you can charge what you want. So before we head to break, I do want to ask one more question around Thor, and that was the Arnold Classic versus the World's Strongest Man. Just for the guys who were watching, can you just describe the differences between those competitions? And where I want to go with it is, how do you train Thor to win both? Because it's almost diametric opposites of how they— both those comps are.

Yep. So, uh, just Just to give a rundown of the background of the events, World's Strongest Man is a company. It's a TV show, and they coined the name, the World's Strongest Man. So, from a strongman perspective, they wanna win that, because then the general public sees the winner of that as the World's Strongest Man. But amongst the elitists, amongst the people that are in the sport, they'll see the Arnold's as actually event that makes you a stronger person, because they're technically lifting heavier weights in the Arnold's. So the Arnold's has a lot more exercises where you're not moving as much, but you're lifting more. World's Strongest Man, it's more of a, you know, a lot more endurance, a lot more moving around and running and speed as well, and other attributes that are required that are different. So technically, you know, the Arnold's winner could technically be seen as stronger than the World's Strongest Man winner. But if you're both, then there's no arguing. And the beauty of Thor, when I met him, and this is probably why we work so well together, he comes from a background in Iceland. They've got a fantastic background of strongman champions. So that's Magnus Ver Magnussen, he's 4-time World's Strongest Man, and John Paul Sigmarsson, he's 4-time World's Strongest Man, so they've won 8 titles before Thor, he's now made it 9. So they— it's huge, that sport is huge in Iceland. And the way that they did it, I believe, I don't know him too well, but I've heard a lot about Magnus Ver Magnusson, I've met him a few times, and I believe something about him is he mastered the events. He was one of the first, so if anyone knows the history, there's a guy called Bill Kazmaier, he used to train like a bodybuilder, he was a freak, he had a 300 kilo bench press, and then they trained with barbells and then they go and compete in events they've never practiced. And that's what made him the World's Strongest Man. But then Magnus Ver Magnussen changed that. He was training the actual events. So he technically, he probably couldn't bench press as much or squat as much or deadlift as much, but he was great at the movements, at the skills. So Iceland have a great history. They're fantastic at these strongman events. So picking up Atlas stones, pulling trucks, doing relays with heavy awkward objects. Picking up stones, just really, really awkward things. Thor had that, and a 6'9" frame, so that's 205 centimeters, you know, and he's currently 197 kilograms. That helps, but he didn't have a huge background in the technical side of the static lifts, which is where I came in, and that's what I incorporated. That along with my programming principles is what I've given Thor. Technique with the barbells, and to put it simply, telling him when to back off. Telling him he's pushing too hard, telling him not to hit the number that he wants to hit. Everyone's different, but for someone like Thor who wants it so bad, it's easy to go down that path. It's like, no, this is the world record, that's what I have to hit today, I need this now. It's like, you need this in competition. You don't need it now, to get there, we have to go back here. And this is how we work so well together. So that's where he was great at moving and events and all of these things, and he has one of those bodies that can just do that. Like, he can pull a truck a lot better than you can. I don't have to explain why. We don't need a technique. We don't need a technique, right? But when it comes to the barbells and the static lifts, that's in my opinion, and I've proven it so many times, it's my favorite tool. The barbell is my single favorite tool tool to strengthen a body, regardless of your goal. That's all this is, this is just tools to strengthen the body, that's all it is, right? This is an accessory exercise, everything here is an accessory, whether you're a fighter, rugby player, or a strongman, this doesn't appear in your sport. So these are all tools, my single favorite tool is the barbell, and that's what I've specialized in, and that's what I introduced to Thor. With that, we strengthened the shit out of his body. Now, He's unbeatable. Awesome.

So with that, my name is Mark Ottobre. You are watching episode 5 of The Wolf's Den. We are with the world's best strength coach and the strongest 110-kiloer in Australia, Sebastian Oreb. Make sure this is a good time to subscribe to us for more great interviews. Episode 4 is with Eugene Tao. Episode 1, Tony Doherty. Episode 2 with Andrew Lock, and episode 3 with Lucky Hatzopini-Popoulos, however you say his name. Make sure you subscribe. Subscribe to us on iTunes and we'll stay tuned. We'll be right back after this quick break. Hey folks, Mark Ottobre here, owner and founder of Enterprise Fitness and creator of the Wolfpack. Hope you're enjoying this super strong episode with Sebastian Oreb talking about all things strength training. Hey, for the personal trainers out there, we've got a special mentoring program. Obviously, it's called Wolfpack where we mentor trainers to— from going from being just a good trainer to be being truly great. So you can learn more at www.personaltrainermentoring.com. The program is structured so we teach you absolutely everything that you need to be a great trainer. We have over 300 hours of original and exclusive content on our members site, which also includes our special guests' content. So we did some private sessions with Sebastian as well as Tony Doherty, Andrew Lock, Bob Guel, etc., etc., over the years, which are stored on the Wolfpack members site, which you also get access to when you join Wolfpack, as well as the 4 seminars which happen 4 times a year, and each of them are 4 days, which do include also a mastermind day, which are always very, very special. We also bring in the best of the best special guest presenters at each seminar for a day, so you get some exclusive time with them on different topics throughout the year. And again, it's from anything from training, nutrition, business, supplementation. We bring in the experts, give you the best information so you can grow your business from being average to being truly outstanding in the field. So I hope you enjoy the same success that I've had in this industry. This industry has given me a lot, and I hope to pass the fire, the torch forward, and help you with yours. So check it out, uh, www.personaltrainermentoring.com, and leave your details. Shoot us an email and we'll get back to you. The first 5 e-classes are available free. Just leave your details there. So enough of that, let's get back to the episode with Sebastian. And we're back watching the Wolf's Den. Thanks for watching, thanks for tuning in. We're back with Sebastian Oreb. Let's pick up from where we left off. Sebastian, please tell us about your Australian Strength Coach training philosophy.

Okay, so let's start about the business name first, Australian Strength Coach. A lot of people ask me, how did you get that name? Basically, I wanted a website, I wanted to I wanted to build a website and I wanted the name strong.com. I thought that's gonna be a great name, that's kind of what I'm about. I wanna be about being strong. And I don't know if anyone's ever bought a website, but if you buy a domain name, you will not find one word dot com. It doesn't matter what it is. So I tried to find, you know, like get strong and variations of that, like two words dot com. And I did like about 1,000 different variations and they were also taken. And I've got a whole book of different business name possibilities, and there's over 1,000 possible domain names, and the only one that came up was AustralianStrengthCoach.com. So I thought, oh, it's the first time that this stupid website said it's available, so I'm just gonna purchase it and I'm just gonna give it some thought. So, so that is how I got the name Australian Strength Coach. And I was actually— I had a personal trainer at the time who was a professional strength coach. His name was Jeff White. He used to train a team, a rugby team in South Africa called the Blue Bulls. And, you know, they won while he was coaching them. And when he came to me, I, you know, I looked up to this guy for the way he ran his business. And, you know, he said to me, wow, how'd you get that name? Like, that's a sick name. And I thought, really, is it actually? Okay, okay, great. I'm gonna roll with it, you know. And, you know, like, working with this guy, He taught me a lot about business and the type of personality that I wanted to have as a coach as well. So he was hugely to thank for where I started off, you know, as a personal trainer and as a strength coach and someone who ran a successful business. And, you know, bouncing ideas off each other, I realized that I had to create some kind of system. And this came about through looking at my mentors you know, like Charles Poliquin, also, you know, Louis Simmons, Westside Barbell, these guys, they had a system. And a funny thing, when Charles Poliquin came to Sydney one time, he was training at, you know, someone's gym, and he was pumping out bicep curls without a 4-0-1-0 tempo, you know, doing high reps on calf raises, all these things that it's like, hang on a second, that's not your system. And you train like that. And it's just like, okay, maybe these guys are selling a system because it's marketable and that's the only way you can run a successful business. You know, after a lot of discussion, we realized you cannot sell a non-system. So I had to try and create some kind of system, which is where— I don't know if for anyone who follows me, I've also got another kind of sub-business name and that's called Strength System. And that's where that name came about as well. It's like, okay, strength, and you have to systemize it if you want people to follow it. And so these are all kind of just semantics, it's just word games and what was kind of available. So that's how I— that's hugely how I created my name, and hugely how I decided that I need to systemize what I'm actually doing, because if I want a lot of people to follow it, I can't just teach people how to be intuitive, because that's something that you need to earn with experience. And you can't just— not everyone has that, not everyone has intuition. And if you want to make an impact, if you want people to be good at what they do, you have to show them how to do it, and you have to have a system. And so that's largely how I came about with needing to develop a method of training. Now, I have a lot of people that I looked up to, you know, from years ago, you know, people that educated me in their time. Charles Poliquin, I use his name a lot because I know that you are familiar familiar with him, and I'm sure everyone here is familiar, like mainly through you as well, they'd know who Charles Poliquin is. And something that I developed from Charles Poliquin, I loved his idea of structural balance. This is something that I use a lot with my own training, structural balance, as well as his, you know, his programming principles. He developed a system of, you know, it was an assessment tool If you followed his, if you did any of his courses, anyone here done his courses? Level 1 is all about achieving structural balance with the upper body, Level 2 is achieving structural balance with the lower body, and he's got a lot of assessments, and the upper body is based on the bench press, and based on the bench press being the number 100%, you've got a whole series of different exercises around it that should be, you know, your external rotation should be, you know, X percent of that for however many reps, your shoulder press, your chin-ups, all of the various exercises to say you are structurally balanced. And if there was a weak point in any of those and you address those weak points, that would work towards you being structurally balanced. And as a whole, that, you know, your bench press would go up as well. Because you now have a structurally balanced body, you're free from injury, you know how to move well, you look good, and all of these things. Now let me tell you, I'll clarify this right now. I don't follow those same percentages, I don't follow those any of those guidelines, but just the understanding of being in balance, being symmetrical. One, you know, being injury-free comes— well, being injured in most instances comes from having some type of imbalance. So, so being structurally balanced, it kind of resonates with me. It's like, okay, that kind of makes sense. To get stronger, you can't be injured. So whether your goal is strength or rehabilitation, they kind of go hand in hand. From an aesthetics perspective, you know, I go around a room like this and I say, put your hands up who don't give a shit how they look, and you never get a hand, right? Deep down, everyone actually cares about how they look, even if they have an underlying goal of being the strongest or the biggest or whatever it is. They all care about their appearance. So everyone stands united in that they all want to look good, they all want to be strong, and they all want to be free from from injury. So, being structurally balanced, being symmetrical, it stood out to me as something that I wanted to achieve with all of my programming principles, with all of my athletes. So that's fundamentally what I'm trying to achieve regardless of your goals. So if you're a powerlifter, for example, you know, you have to have a good bench press, but I'm not just gonna exclusively train your bench press. That's your sport, we're gonna get good at the bench press, and then we're gonna work around that with your upper body to make sure that you are structurally balanced. Same with your lower body. It's, as a powerlifter, you've got different types of squat variations, but there's one in particular that most people will turn to, to shift the heaviest loads possible in competition, and that is, typically it's gonna be a low bar squat amongst a lot of powerlifters. Everyone's different, but just typically. And that will strengthen a certain group of muscles, but not all of the lower body muscles. So the rest of my programming, will revolve around strengthening the muscles that we're not strengthening so much when we perform the low bar squatting competition, which will ultimately create a balanced appearance. So you're training all of your weak points so that it looks good, and having no weaknesses and having no imbalances, you're gonna be able to do it for longer without injuries, and it just works. So I'll have a team of powerlifters is when people, powerlifters come to me, they might be overweight or whatever it is. Some people actually, their goal is to kind of get bigger and lift the heavier weights. Fundamentally, being fat isn't necessarily healthy and being unhealthy isn't the best way to get as strong as possible. So gone are the days where people just want to get big and fat and eat big, lift big is the mentality. You want to be healthy as well. So if I have, you know, someone who's big and fat and strong, and if I work towards improving their health, and actually goes hand in hand with improving their body composition as well, all of these things will increase their strength, will increase their performance, will make them a better athlete.

So you've spoken about one thing about, say, the Poliquin and what you've taken from them, but let's talk about another name that is synonymous in powerlifting, that's Westside. What are your thoughts on Westside? How do you differ?

Okay, so Louis Simmons is the owner of Westside Barbell, That is a hugely influential name in the world of powerlifting, and not just in the world of powerlifting. In my experience working with a lot of professional strength coaches for like rugby teams and other athletes like that, that aren't strength sports, they will utilize the Louie Simmons method or the Westside Barbell method because they realize that powerlifting movements actually get a body strong. So if you've got a great rugby player and we train them with these powerlifting techniques like the strongest powerlifting team in the world use, we're gonna have a strong rugby team. Now here's the thing, this is where things get a little bit pear-shaped. Louis Simmons is phenomenal at what he does. He has a team of powerlifters that are arguably the best in the world at what they do. And what do they do? It's called equipped powerlifting. That's their expertise. For those who don't know what equipped powerlifting is, in a squat and a deadlift, you use a squat or a deadlift suit. You also use knee wraps. For a bench press, you use a bench press shirt. Essentially what it does, imagine a really, really, really tight t-shirt that locks you in place that you can't actually pull your arms down. You need a whole bunch of weight to actually push you down to your chest, and it's made of stuff like equivalent to like denim. It's not stretchy and bouncy and comfortable, it's hugely uncomfortable and it actually cuts your skin if you're not conditioned for it. But Like anything, it's a tool. It's a skill that's required to use this tool. You know, I'll go around a room like this, hands up who does equipped powerlifting here? And out of a room of, we've got about 30 in here, any hands up please who does equipped powerlifting? That's usually the answer that I'll get. I'll get 0% of the room that are using equipment, yet I'll get a higher percentage of those who are using methods that are useful for an equip powerlifting style of training. So you have to understand the full story. Louis Simmons is phenomenal at what he does, and if his expertise was raw powerlifting or rugby, he would be great at that. But most of the literature that he's produced and a lot of his training methodology revolves around his expertise, which is equip powerlifting. So if you were to just blindly not understand that and just say, I'm going to do a you know, Conjugate Method, which is his system, because you cannot sell a non-system, remember that, which is his system and it's very effective for his athletes, which are equipped powerlifters. It's gonna work if your goal is to be an equipped powerlifter. So his techniques, he has a certain style of squatting, he has a certain style of bench pressing, he has a certain style of programming. If you're not an equipped powerlifter, maybe it's not the best method for you to follow.

So, side question to that. So, you have people who, you know, obviously in these rugby teams, etc., sports teams who use the Westside method. They look, they're like, I'm going to use this. And then you have people use the Poliquin system for athletes. Is there an argument to say that, you know, I mean, well, the question is, is powerlifting superior for getting athletes strong? Why is it nonspecific work? Say, for example, on the bench press, right? And this is more of a discussion question than a presumption. So, for example, I trained Andrew Maloney, who won Commonwealth Games gold in 2014, and we used the bench press, the incline bench press, as an indicator lift. We didn't use, you know, traditional, say for example, you know, high arc bench press setup. In your opinion, is that a mistake? I mean, we used it in a sense to strengthen scapula and all that kind of stuff, but not as, I suppose, the main way he bench pressed, for example. We tried to get there, but it was more of a close grip bench press style. So, in your opinion, the way you train athletes, is there— is it, yep, I'm just gonna train them using the powerlifting tools? What considerations do you make?

So, the first word that you said was, is it a mistake? It's definitely not a mistake. Remember, none of this stuff that you see here is what you see— what sport does he play?

He was a boxer.

He's a boxer, so you don't see any of this stuff. So, all of this here is just an accessory to his main goal. So, technically, you don't even have to do any of this stuff, it's just an add-on. So no, it's not a mistake. Is it the way that I would do it? Not necessarily, because I prefer different methods. And my method of bench pressing with an arch is my absolute favorite way of strengthening the upper body for the push pattern, whether it's overhead or horizontal, whichever angle that you like, it strengthens it. Because it's the way that your upper body is going to safely, the best way that your upper body is going to safely be able to shift the head heaviest loads. So if I was to train him, would I utilize an arch back bench press? Yeah, I would, because it's a really safe technique. If it hurt that athlete to perform that lift, I wouldn't use it. Is an incline a bad— Exos incline bench press a bad tool to use? Absolutely not, it's an excellent tool to use. I just find that the arch back bench press, in my opinion, allows you to shift a heavier load and has a better carryover to all of the other lifts. So that's why it's my go-to exercise.

Where do plyos fit in for you? Particularly with, well, two questions. Do you use plyos with powerlifters? And consequently, do they fit in in terms of an athletic plan? And even with like Thor, are you using plyos with Thor at all?

So plyometrics you're referring to?

Yeah, correct.

For a powerlifter, no I don't. There's a lot of powerlifting methodologies where they utilize speed as a great stimulus. So that's, you know, specifically the Westside Method has half of their programming revolves around the dynamic method, dynamic effort day, which is speed as a stimulus. So they will use, you know, plyometric exercises. For myself and my powerlifters, I've not yet used them, and I've been able to achieve great success without them. And same with strongman. So for Thor, no. We use technique work and exercise to achieve structural balance and exercise to get him as strong as possible for his sport. He doesn't need speed to that level for his sport. If you had an athlete like a rugby player, an MMA fighter, who I've trained UFC fighters, I've trained some of the best NRL players in Australia, I would utilize plyometrics, I would utilize speed work.

How are you utilizing and bringing plyometrics?

So, the way, my favorite method to train non-strength sports, where power and speed is required of their sport, something that I love to use is the contrast method. Because something about me, I just love getting my athletes strong. And what a contrast method doesn't exclude is the strength work. So a contrast method, typically the way that I would utilize it, is I would use the heavy exercise, like a bench press or a deadlift or a squat, or somewhere where the, the athlete is able to shift the heaviest loads possible. And then I would as a drop set or a superset, use a plyometric exercise, something that's fast and explosive in nature. So, you know, superset a squat to a jump of some sort. Superset a deadlift with a high pull, like a weightlifting movement. Superset a heavy bench press, whether it's a flat bench or an incline bench or a dip or an overhead press, superset that with something explosive like a ball throw or a clap pushup or something like that. So this is absolutely, I would say, utilize plyometric in nature exercises for an athlete that requires that level of power and speed.

So I want to get into the weeds just a little bit on that one, because I do find this topic quite interesting. Like, what are you doing with that? So for the deadlift, is it 3 reps on the deadlift and then straight over to say 5 reps on the plyo, or is it 3 and 3? Like, how do you prescribe that?

It can be 3. A lot of people with the deadlift, I like to use more than 1 rep, because a number of reasons. One reason, when we do a one rep for a deadlift, people like to max out, and it's not really good to max out in your session. Another reason why I like to do more than one rep is most people are better at deadlifts on their second rep and their third rep than they are on their first, for many reasons. I have the answer to that as well if you want it, but I will utilize that and understand that if we're just training their first rep, we're not getting the get full benefit out of the exercise. So to get someone strong with a deadlift, typically we— I love weak point training, but I also love to train an athlete's strengths. So if someone's strength is to perform the second and the third rep, we're gonna utilize that. So everyone is different. In a periodized plan, I could start with triples and move to doubles and move to singles. And it's not that one rep range is better than another, they all have their place. 5s is good, 4s is good, 6s is good, they all work.

[Speaker] It really just depends on the phase.

[Speaker] It depends on the phase, and at the end of the day, we wanna periodize our athlete. In the starting blocks, we wanna typically, a very traditional way of programming for somebody is to build a base by utilizing higher volume, which means higher rep range, and gradually increase the intensity, which means go heavier as you go along. As we go week to week and get closer to competition phase and reduce the volume. So that means use a lower rep range and use a heavier weight.

So I need to bite on what you said before, 'cause I'm a classic person, if you watch me deadlift, first rep, eh, second rep perfect, third rep perfect. Why is that?

So if we compare a deadlift to another exercise like a squat or a bench press, we're starting with the concentric phase, we are unloaded to begin with. So a lot of the times we've lost something something called precision. With a squat and a bench press, for example, we start in an eccentric portion. We are loaded to begin with. We are able to feel the weight. We are able to guide the bar into position to set us up for a good concentric rep. So we are able to see precisely where that barbell needs to be. Deadlift? No, we have to start from scratch. We have to guess where that bar is going to be. And it's not just a matter of guessing. If you understand how to do it and take the slack out of the bar and various techniques, you're able to set yourself up better. So that's absolutely the reason why that happens and you just need more practice at doing that first rep.

[Speaker] So I want to circle, and I've been really enjoying this segment where we've been unpacking your philosophy. So we've spoken about previously about the Lilliebridge family, what they taught you about working up to a max and how it really applies to the strongest men in the world. Then we spoke about the Poliquin system where it's more about structural balance. Then we went into the plyometric stuff as well and athletes. So, if we look at Sebastian Oreb, Australian Strength Coach aside, branding aside, look at Sebastian Oreb, your philosophy on getting someone strong. Out of those, what's borrowed, what's new? Is it unique or is it just taken? We spoke about Westside as well, which I forgot to mention. Is it borrowed, is it new, what's different, what's unique about you?

The philosophy is absolutely borrowed from every one of my mentors that I've had. So, as we said, with the Poliquin approach, it's—

Sorry, if I just may, is there someone I'm missing in that list?

It's probably important. Yeah, probably John Broz as well.

Okay.

I'd like to include him. John Broz is someone who probably doesn't have— His name's probably not as influential as, you know, Louie Simmons, Charles Poliquin, but that's someone that I looked up to many years ago. He's a weightlifting coach and I loved the sport of weightlifting, just visually. I just thought it was just amazing watching people do clean and jerks and snatches. And there was one lifter in particular, his name was Pat Mendez, and he was touted as the strongest teenager in the world. And there was a video of him squatting, you know, 800 pounds, which is, you know, the way the Americans say, 363 kilograms. And, you know, ass to grass, no belt, you know, walked out the squat.

It's quite the thing, I've seen it on YouTube. It's ridiculous.

[Speaker] It's crazy, it's crazy. And I thought, "Wow, who's his coach?" And it came up as John Broz. And I started watching a lot of the stuff that he did and everything that he taught. He came from a background of the Bulgarian method, which is a very famous methodology that has been very successful in the sport of weightlifting and has been adopted with all of the powerhouse nations, whether it's China, Russia, you know, the Middle East, and a lot of the European countries that are dominating in weightlifting.

So, if I can just pause on that one, isn't the Bulgarian Method all about, you know, if a rabbit doesn't run to 100% each day, it gets eaten? I mean, to paraphrase the coach. Pretty much, yep. Which is the antithesis of what you say.

Yes, absolutely. So, it's maxing out daily, which I've done to death, and I've— would I do it again? I won't say never, but I would do it differently. I would do it with a much lower intensity. So, technically, technically I wouldn't max out every day. I would practice the skill of hitting a single, but you don't necessarily need to go at 100% to achieve a single. So I think that I could do that again, but yeah, I wouldn't max out, I wouldn't grind out. The way I've done it in the past has probably been the reason why I've injured myself a lot, and why I had to change a lot of my philosophies with my own training for myself and my athletes. But still, something that I liked about him and something that I do intuitively with a lot of my athletes is work up to a top set. He'd call that a max. So, you know, the Bulgarian method is a fellow named Ivan Abzhayev, sadly passed away, but he was the head coach of the Bulgarian weightlifting team. And, you know, they'd work up to a max and then they'd strip weight and do back down sets. Now the beauty of that is you're teaching the nervous system how to accept a really, really, really heavy load, so you're really excited at that point. And your body, you then strip a little bit of weight off your max and it feels really light and you're able to produce some great volume at a submaximal load. And if you weren't to perform that max beforehand, that submaximal load would feel a lot heavier than what it actually is. So it's just a way of tricking the nervous system into lifting a heavier weight. So that's something that I still adopt with all of my athletes when it's face to face. So, when I'm programming for someone that I'm not Therefore, it's very difficult to say, go to a submax, be intuitive about how much you should strip off the bar, and perform some back down sets off that. I don't know if it should be doubles, triples, or however you feel on the day. You're not gonna succeed that way, by telling someone to be intuitive. So when I'm with my athlete, a lot of the times, a lot of my successful athletes aren't following a program. We have a basic guideline that we go by, But it's largely intuitive-based training. And that's where it comes from. That comes from the John Broz approach. Work up to a top set, which is how I said that I would train you if I assessed you on the very first day. I'd work up to somewhere where it's, instead of maxing out like it's impossible to lift heavier, going to your, working up to mechanical fail. So as heavy as you can, with good technique. And then I would reduce weight, not by percentage, but intuitively what I think would be a good number for you to be working on that's going to elicit a strength response.

And how do you go about adding load?

So for me, I'm not about percentages, I'm about pretty colors. So, you know, if you see me, I bench press yesterday, I did 200 kilos. Because it's a round number. You know, the session before I did 180 kilos, you know, that's 4 blue plates. As dumb as it sounds, that's what a lot of my training is based on. You know, 6 reds today, okay, let's work towards, okay, shit, 6 reds and a 5 looks ugly, maybe we can do that with the blues. And choose nice milestones. A lot of people have that goal, they wanna hit 2 blues. Hands up if you've ever had that goal. I wanna hit 2 blues for my bench press. And then you've got the next goal, which is what?

3 blues.

Magic. But that's how people, they like to respond. This is all about training morale. This is where percentages, you kind of throw it out the window. But does it work? Absolutely. What's the science of that? It's not science. It's called what makes you happy. And usually success breeds success. If you're enjoying what you're doing, you're going to perform it better.

So let's say my goal is to hit 3 blues. Yeah. So am I doing most of my work at 2 blues?

So no, you won't go 2 blues up to until you can get 3. So we'd start somewhere and absolutely have that as the end goal and we'd work back from there. So, you know, it's a very standard approach to periodization, is not to just think of where you are and just keep moving forward. Set a goal and work backwards.

So you said I wouldn't be starting at 2 blues?

Potentially, it depends on where you're at. Right. Can you do 2 blues? I don't know. So if your goal is 3 blues and you're only on 1 blue, I'd say okay, let's Let's get to 2 blues first.

Right.

Okay, so it's typical goal setting. They need to be achievable.

So for the theoretical, for the 2 blue guy, because I think there's a lot in the room, for the 2 blue guy, they want to go to 3 blue.

We would do 2.5.

Right.

We would definitely work in between and all of the numbers in between. So an alternative to that, so that's very loosely based description of the way that I do it, but an alternative to that, which Charles Poliquin used to preach a lot of, which I don't do, was, you know, fraction plates. And you see people that are doing the numbers, you know, 102, 103 kilos, 104 kilos. It's like, too hard basket, looks ugly. My OCD doesn't let me do those things.

Nice, nice. So if I kind of summarize what we just went through there, Westside, you've taken some great things there in terms of systemization. Poliquin, you've taken some great things. John Broz, you've taken some great things. Athletic style of training, you've taken some great things. And basically what you've really adapted is how to, on a linear progression, how to load but still include a very much an intuitive component to the system. So it's basically doing all those things but not forgetting that people are people and sometimes people have bad sleep or they have a fight with their partner or they have a problem with business and when they come in, it's not the piece of paper that says, "Hey, look, you've got to do this." It's more about, "All right, you feel like shit today? The movement looks like shit today? Guess what? We're not doing the piece of paper." Absolutely. We're putting down, and then tomorrow if you feel better, we'll go the max there.

Absolutely. So that's, you know, one of my biggest arguments that I have with my online athletes is when they follow the piece of paper and they send me a video of them performing what the number that I wrote down on the piece of pieces of paper with horrible technique breaking down in form, and my feedback to them is, how the eff did you let it get here? That form was horrible. Obviously the set before that would have also been horrible. What made you think that you qualified to hit that weight today? Stop doing it just because I say so. Which is a hard thing to tell someone. It's like, well, why'd you write it in the first place? Well, that's a guideline, I'm not there. But absolutely, we don't do the no pain, no gain approach. I don't do the breakdown of technique just to achieve the number that's been written down for you. There's plenty of time to do it, and a lot of my intuitive athletes, they learn this after discussions with me on multiple occasions where we've gotten angry at each other or whatever it was, for breaking down technique, because I absolutely don't allow it. And I've had lifters, they come in to squat one day, it's horrible, they'll throw in the towel, send me a video the next day of them performing performing exactly what I set to achieve, and they did it with beautiful technique.

As a powerlifter, do you train arms? Or is it important to train arms?

I don't train arms directly. It wouldn't hurt if I did though. So, a lot of the times there's kind of this stigma, oh, you're doing bicep curls so you're not hardcore. Well, actually, something that a lot of the best bench pressers in the world do is they train the guns, you know, they do a lot of bicep exercises. Exercises and it doesn't, it's not a disadvantage at all. But currently, to get to the level that I'm at, and to get my athletes to the level that they're at, I haven't needed to isolate arms and train them, like with the typical bodybuilder's approach. So I don't really do bicep curls in my programming, just because I'd rather invest that time in what is actually more important, which is mastering the technique.

Now let's talk about what keeps you lifting.

I like being good.

But you are good. People say you're great. You've broken a record.

Thank you, thank you.

You've been to that mountain. I mean, there's not much better than holding an Australian national record. What, you know, a lot of guys, they set the goal, I want to get to 200 kilos. Okay, yay, you have a party. 250, okay, yay, you have a party. 300, and it's kind of like you're at 300, you're a god. Yeah. Now anything over 300, you're basically Thanos and can destroy the universe with the power of the gauntlet, right? Infinity Stones. So, and you're at that point, you know, so you're basically Thanos in some ways. But really, what does keep you lifting after?

So, you know, I get chuffed, you know, it's really flattering to hear you say, you know, you're the best in Australia, and I'm absolutely gonna let you say that, so thank you very much. And the reason why I am is because that's gonna be short-lived. There's a lot of great lifters around Australia that are as good as me, and they just, didn't perform it on the day, and that's gonna go real quick. So I want to hold that for a little bit longer if I can, and I want to try and better that. I guarantee you, the next competition, it's gonna be Pro Raw, someone's gonna beat that. I hope it's me, but it's possible that it's gonna be me and another fellow, probably the fellow that I took it off. And that's what keeps me driven. I love the competition, and I don't love competing against— I don't want to just flog the guys, you know, like if the guy that that, you know, is the best contender to take my record came to me and said, "Will you coach me to beat your record?" I'd say 100% I would. You know, so the reason why I so gracefully say, "Yeah, number one, I'm gonna take that," is because I'm taking it while I can. There's so many great guys in the world and in Australia that are just gonna— they'll take it next comp.

Let's talk personal trainers, because we have a lot of personal trainers obviously in the room and personal trainers who are watching this on YouTube, what is a good squat, bench press, deadlift that, you know, these guys as coaches, as personal trainers, what should they be looking to achieve?

Yeah, so, you know, it's all about where are you at currently and then let's set goals from there. But I have a standard in my gym and we used to give them out more frequently, but they were, it's a t-shirt that says strong motherfucker. And that was, none of my members were allowed to purchase that t-shirt, you had to earn it or you didn't get it. And for that, it was kind of based on, you know, I'd set achievable goals for all of my lifters, but it wasn't just like a pat on the back, okay great, you did a 2-plate squat, you're gonna get a Strong Motherfucker t-shirt. You had to actually be strong. So a lot of the guidelines for my average lifters, which was roughly between 80 to 100 kilogram male, they had to achieve One of three things: 200 kilogram high bar squat, 260 kilogram deadlift, or a 160 kilogram bench press. Or, or a 3-plate snatch, if there was weightlifters in the room, a 140 kilo overhead press. This is between 80 to 100 kilograms. Or a 180 kilogram clean and jerk. Those numbers ring bells to anyone? Has anyone done that before at those body weights?

So for, say, a 90 kilo guy, what's the deadlift they have to achieve? 260. 260. And what's that based off? 3 times whatever, double body weight, what are you doing?

Just what I know is possible. So it's not just a percentage thing, because I'll tell you right now, who do you think is the best deadlifter in the world? Anyone want to call out a name? Who's got the biggest deadlift on the planet? Eddie Hall. What weight is that?

180?

195 he was. What weight did he lift? 500. That's not triple body weight. We've got the little guys in our gym ripping triple body weight. Who's a better deadlifter? Eddie Hall. Eddie Hall is. Okay, has anyone ever seen an ant carrying a breadcrumb around? 10 times its body weight, who gives a shit? Unfortunately, unfortunately, that's just how it goes. We wanna see the freaks lift the heavy shit. You know, so I don't always do the pound for pound game, I just do what I know is absolutely achievable. And I'll tell you, I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but I've had my feelings hurt before by someone, like Charles told me I was not good enough, I'll tell you that story next. And that made me get better, actually. But, you know, like we've got zero people in this room that put their hand up. Eugene, you should have, I'm sure I've given you that t-shirt. 160. Right? And haven't you done the 200 kilo squat? Yes. So, 260 deadlift. Oh no, I haven't done that, no chance. Right. But this is a room full of industry professionals. My gym has business owners, electricians, fathers, mothers, and they all have that t-shirt. These aren't people that live and breathe the way I live and breathe it. They're just people that follow a program, understand technique, they do the long game, they're consistent, they do everything right, and, and they're achieving those numbers. And it's like, I used to work at Fitness First, and I thought I was a legend because I— well, the first time I could squat 180 kilograms, that's 4 blue plates. Side. You know, no one else at Fitness First at that time could do that. So I was like, this is where my ceiling was. And I thought, just for the record, I can do double that and more now. And back then, that's what made me think I've got a really good crack at being a powerlifter. 180 kilo squat, because I'm stronger than everyone in this room. Unfortunately, I was in the wrong room. So, you know, I worked up towards a certain level. So anyhow, by the time You know, 180 was legend status at Fitness First, North Sydney. I got up to 210 kilograms because I was in another little competition with another fellow called Dane McDonald. And you know, it's like we both got to 200 kilo squat and he said, "No, first to 210." So I got to 210, I'm like, "I am the man," right? So I had a friend of mine who went and he did one of the Charles Poliquin courses. And I said to him, "Can you do me a favor? Can you ask Charles for me?" tell him I'm gonna do this program that he prescribed and tell him what my squat is, you know. And anyway, he came back and he said, okay, so I told him and he said that you're not ready to do that program because you're not strong enough. I'm like, who does this guy think he is? Did you tell him what my squat was? And he goes, yeah. I'm thinking, I didn't, I couldn't comprehend. What do you mean I'm not strong enough? That's 210, dude. And then I did my research, and where I needed to be in Australia to actually be competitive was around the 260 kilogram mark. And it's like, all right, you know, take a slice of my humble pie now and get back to work. So it was a little bit offensive initially to realize that I sucked, but here I am.

Well, I'm almost at the 260, I'm 20 kilos away. I want to come at you for it.

It's nothing.

Yeah.

260, like the 20 kilos from where you're at now, it's, it's, you'll get there.

I'm glad you say it's nothing. I'll come at you for the t-shirt.

You have to not think of the number. And then I'll do a Wolf's Den episode with it on. Yeah, good.

Shout out.

You just have to follow the process, which is don't go to fail. Come in and use the perfect technique and nothing less than that every session. And follow an intelligent approach to your training. Which is, you know, the first thing I talk about is technique is the highest importance of your training. So if the technique breaks down, it's just too heavy or you're just not doing it right. So get the technique right. The next highest priority that I have for your success in your programming is load selection. The biggest error that people make is lifting weights that are too heavy. So my advice is to be conservative with your load selection. Start light. So if you think you can do If you can do it with 2 plates, for example, cool, let's do 1.5 plates. And let's just really dial in that technique and gradually progress from there. Because if you can go, you know, from 80 kilos and go up by 5 kilos every session for the next, you know, 10 weeks, you know, that's 130 kilos from 80 kilos, that's a really, really, that's a big progression.

[Speaker] So I saw you training a young rugby player, I think he was 16, lifted about 200 kilos.

Is that 220?

220.

Yeah, that's the numbers, right? Little Dougie.

Little Dougie. Now, won't that stunt his growth? I'll just let you run with that one.

Look, it's— I'll tell you something, it's a funny topic that I've had because I've got a daughter that I make her deadlift. She's 8 years old and she does it with beautiful technique, and I'm completely confident that it's not going to stunt her growth. And if anything, you could even argue that it's going to assist to growth. This is how you stunt your growth. You fracture the growth plates of the long bones. I'm not going to say that's impossible because I've seen people break bones from lifting stupid weights before, not because of any technical errors either. It's just like they're lifting weights that are too heavy. But in my opinion, young, young people are too weak to lift weights heavy enough to break their bones. It would be too hard for them to get in the position position to lift that weight that would break their bones, unless, I don't know, unless someone just dropped the weight on them. That's the potential of breaking your— that's the specific part of the long bone that you could potentially break. Has it happened before? I've never heard of a case of it happening. So I'm very confident to say it's not gonna happen. Is it a myth? Well, it's possible if you break the growth plate the end of that growth plate of the long bone. I've never heard of it happening yet. So this fellow in particular, yeah, he's taller than what he was because he's more than 16 years old now. I think he's 17 or 18. No, it didn't stunt his growth. And I followed the same principles. He deadlifted 220 kilograms and it wasn't just a single rep. This is a 16-year-old kid and he would have weighed about 80 kilograms. And he was just a genetic freak as well. He had athleticism built in. And he was actually man of the match at the under-16s. It's called, has anyone heard of Harold Matz? It's the under-16s league. That's the best of the best before they go to, the next one is, I forget what it's called, but then it's NRL. So for the under-16s, that's the NRL equivalent. He was the captain of the State of Origin team and he was man of the match. Like he was He was the man, he was an athlete. And he was actually a Samoan guy. Now these, I don't know what it is with these Polynesians, but they are freaks. Currently the best powerlifter in Australia is Polynesian, that's Odell Manuel. There's something about these guys that are just better than us, right? And that's what this kid was. He was 80 kilograms, repping 220 kilograms with good technique. I think he did a triple. Same principle applies, he didn't break down technique. A lot of people look at it and say, "That weight is too heavy." It's relative, it's not too heavy for him. Maybe it's too heavy for you because you're not strong enough to lift it, but everything about that kid was definitely strong enough to lift it.

Glute bridges.

Yep.

Is it an exercise that you recommend? I mean, it's just done to death, and the reason why I bring it up is it something that drives you nuts or is it something that actually has a place?

Absolutely has a place, so you know, If you understand biomechanics and glute activation, technically, when the body is at 0 degrees hip extension, so that's here, this is 0 degrees hip extension, you know, that's 90 degrees, that's when the glutes can contract maximally. So that's the end position for a glute bridge. So if you wanna get your glutes really firing, yeah, it's a great exercise. But it's just like me saying, if you really you wanna have a great bench press, you need to do lateral raises with dumbbells. If you're not doing that, you're missing out. Okay, so that's just absurd. That's just another tool, like, will it, will a lateral raise negatively impact your bench press? No. Is it gonna make your world record holding bench press up? No. But is it a great medial deltoid exercise? Hell yeah. So a glute bridge, yeah, great exercise. It's gonna build your glutes. But if you're gonna use that because you want a better squat, probably better ways to spend your time, and that's in squatting.

So let's change pace and play the one-word game, which I play with every guest, and it basically enables us to go through a lot of topics relatively fast. And the way you play it is, for example, if I said superhero, you might say Batman or Spider-Man. There you go. All right, you ready to play?

Sure.

Bodybuilding.

Arnold.

Greatest lifter of all time?

Ed Coan.

Athlete you admire?

Hafthor Bjornsson.

Game of Thrones?

Hafthor Bjornsson.

Person you wish you could train?

The Rock.

Nice answer. Favorite supplement?

Steak.

Most disliked supplement?

Oh, dear me, I don't even know supplements. Okay, fat burners.

Biggest lie in powerlifting?

That you need to be fat to be good.

Strongest lift?

Squat.

If you were an exercise, what exercise would you be?

Squat.

Your spirit food?

Pretty boring, but sorry.

Spirit food?

Beef.

Completely centered. I want to deadlift—

350 kilograms.

When I am deadlifting, I'm thinking of—

holding on for dear life.

The contest I most want to win is—

Pro Raw.

My biggest competitor—

currently Will Crozier.

Favorite pastime—

I'm not allowed to say that.

Respected colleague or peer?

My brother.

Book all coaches should read?

Arnold Schwarzenegger's Encyclopedia.

A go-to or comfort food?

Say it for me. Beef.

And finally, I'm sorry, and one more. When Sebastian grows up, he wants to be?

See, I've just got so many things in my head that would just come out naturally, but it's not necessarily. There's a Snoop Dogg song, has anyone heard it? I wanna be a motherfucking hustler. But that's not me anyway. I don't know, I don't know.

And finally—

I wanna be alive.

I probably shouldn't ask this question, but I will. And finally, for Christmas, Sebastian wants?

Oh wow. You know, I can't do this in one word, you know. I'm taking my daughter to the best place in the world, which is where Santa Claus is from, and that's what I want for Christmas. This is the last year she's going to believe in it. And yeah, so that's, that's in Finland, it's called Lapland, and we're taking her to meet Santa Claus, and she is so stoked, and that makes me so happy.

Awesome.

So that's what I want for Christmas.

Let's give Sebastian a round of applause. Alrighty folks, you're watching The Wolf's Den. My name is Mark Ottobre. Today's guest is Sebastian Oreb Eschreling, strength coach, the strongest strength coach, one of the strongest strength coaches in the world, and probably the world's best strength coach because he trains the World's Strongest Man.

We base it on that, I'll take it.

So please do subscribe to us, The Wolf's Den Melbourne Personal Training. Make sure you like Sebastian on Facebook, follow on Instagram, that's what the cool kids these days do. Follow us, Mark Ottobre, on Instagram as well, Enterprise Fitness, and all good things, look us up. Make sure you stay tuned to more episodes to come, so press subscribe. And until next one, supplement smart, train hard, and eat well.