S3:E2 - Wolf’s Den: Ben BPAK Pakulski

Welcome to the show that educates and entertains. I'm your host, Mark Ottobre, and today's guest is a former IFBB pro bodybuilder. He's the founder of the MI40 gym and the MI40 system. He is the bodybuilding yogi. Ladies and gentlemen, Ben Pakulski.

Thanks, man. Great job.

Welcome. Let's give a round of applause. So Ben, first off, this isn't your first time in Australia, but I believe it's your first time for an Australia Day.

It is.

It is the first time for Australia Day.

Yeah.

So I thought I would do my due diligence and give you an Australia Day toolkit. So what we've got here is some Weet-Bix.

Okay.

Now, have you ever had Weet-Bix before?

Very familiar, yes.

So, you've had it? Gluten-free. They're gluten-free.

I'm pretty sure they taste— When I started bodybuilding, this used to be my breakfast every day. Oh, really? And I would put a protein shake on top. No shit. Yeah. Wow.

Well, I think those are made of sawdust. But apart from that, we've also got Vegemite. Have you had Vegemite before?

Unfortunately so.

Yes. Vegemite. Who likes Vegemite here? Oh, a couple of people. I think Vegemite is almost—

I thought it was like everyone in Australia just almost like hate Vegemite. It's like instead of breast milk, you guys get Vegemite.

Yeah, I hate it. I feel like with Vegemite, it's almost as polarizing.

Now, so let me ask you, what's the nutritional benefit? Because I would assume that everyone in this fitness room would be like, oh, that's good for me. I need to eat it. Is it really? It's yeast, I know, but is there actually any nutritional benefit that you're aware of?

Well, I don't know any nutritional benefit. I think if you put it on food that you don't like, it will probably—

Cancels out?

Correct. Well, abstain, like you can kind of anchor in bad food. So if there's a food that you always have to eat, say chocolate, and you put a bit of that on it, you'll never want chocolate.

Yeah, I tried to convince my kids it was Nutella, but they wouldn't believe me.

I think it's about as polarizing as Lane Norton's views on if it fits your macros.

No comment.

So then we've got our 4 in 20 pies. Have you had one of those?

No, what's this?

These are pies.

Meat pies.

So if you go to the AFL and you watch any AFL games, this is the club.

So I've definitely had a meat pie in Australia before. The first time I was here, I was walking down a road in Melbourne and somebody said, hey, man, it seems like on every corner is a meat pie place. So I got some meat pies.

I think those ones have—

I think it was Erin Stern. Do you know who Erin Stern is?

Yes.

So I think she was the one who told me I need to get meat pies. Thanks, Erin, for your advice.

And then we have something very special.

If there's Tim Tams in there, we're going to be friends.

Well, it's this. And this just isn't any type of beer. Actually, careful with that. You might need to put a stubby in there because this beer is so disgusting that you can't touch it with your hands.

It is horrid.

So us Australians, we really know how to drink beer.

Somebody's got a bottle opener.

But it will get you pissed as all hell, I tell you that. And then to finish off, what we also have here is— ever had this? This stuff is gold. Milo. As a kid, who drank Milo?

Yeah, we have this in America.

So what we did was you'd do the whole glass Milo and then just a little bit of milk and then you'd eat it out of it.

So it's just powdered sugar.

It'd be amazing. And then finish your Australia day with good old Tim Tams. So that's your jam.

I knew I would love you, man. Yeah.

You've got to bite a little bit, put it in the milk with the Milo and use it as a straw. And then to celebrate Australia, we've got to have our— here, you got some? There you go. We've got to get our flags out.

All right. Is there like a routine we need to do? Can we sing the national anthem or something?

We can, but before we do, do you have an Australian nickname?

No.

You don't have an Australian nickname?

You'd be the first one.

Okay, well, what do we do?

I don't even know where this wants to go.

How do you pronounce your last name?

Pakolski.

Pakolski. Well, I think the natural selection of that one would be Packer, but you've got to say it with a bit of emphasis. It's not just Packer, it's Packer. Say, hey, g'day, Packer. And you really got to—

That sounds Australian.

That's it.

Yeah.

So ladies and gentlemen, Ben Pakulski. Alrighty, now that we have the important stuff out the way, let's get into the fun stuff. So first question, I can't help but hearing on the interview that you did, I think recently, you said that you were one of the very few A-type personalities in bodybuilding.

Meaning I'm a little bit high-strung compared to most bodybuilders. So, you know, most bodybuilders, if you've ever, I'm sure you've encountered some, especially the high-level ones, are, you know, to speak in your language, very GABA dominant, meaning they're all about the breaks. And when they get in the gym, different story, they can get after it, but the rest of their life is very chilled out. And it's not me, right? Like, you know, prior I had this girlfriend who, you know, the irony of life is the blessing and the curse. She brought me much stress, but she also taught me that, hey man, if you want to grow, you better learn to sit on your butt. And So I'd plan like one, which kind of started my path down understanding these parasympathetic days, which I now write into all my programs. Like you have a day where it's not just rest, it's like, what can I do to actually activate my parasympathetic nervous system? And as soon as I started introducing that, my growth was exponential. So I went from 230 pounds to 270 pounds in 5 months or something. And like just introducing these practices around ultimately bringing down sympathetic tone and improving parasympathetic tone.

So that almost goes against in some ways of what you would imagine a pro bodybuilder to be, someone who's obviously not yourself, you'd think is what that's typical would be, but you're actually saying with a lot of the guys being GABA dominant, they're a bit more relaxed.

They're chilled out, man. Yeah, so, well, case in point, what time did I show up today? Like most bodybuilders are going on their own schedule. Like I gotta eat, if I have need to eat, unfortunately gonna have to wait. And there's no stress around it for most guys. For the guys at the top of the sport, most of them you'll find are very calm. Very kind of methodical in their ways rather than being very racy, very high-strung.

Would you say it's almost a prerequisite to get to that level or to learn to go into that gear?

Absolutely, absolutely. I think knowing, you know, having from the outside perspective, like you would assume these guys are very, you know, very type A personality, but it's not. They're so chilled out. It was very surprising to me to see once I got there, like everyone, most of them, Some guys, I mean, maybe, but most guys are chilled out, go at their own pace, wake up when they wanna wake up, go to bed when they wanna, you know, like there's no stress.

Would you say that's one of the main differences between say the amateurs and the pros? Is that approach to things?

I don't know that it's a main difference between the amateurs and the pros, but I think it would be one of the main differences that if someone wanted to set themselves apart from going from an amateur to a pro, that would be, that's one of the first things I address with all clients, right? It's like putting together a chart of like parasympathetic and sympathetic inputs and go write down all your sympathetic inputs today. So like what's the stress for you? Even if it's like a second dart, meaning like something like I stub my toe and I go, who left that weight there? You know, like that's the second dart, that's a sympathetic input. And then how do I balance those out at very least with parasympathetic inputs, meaning like, you know, breathe or meditate or get outside in the sunshine or go to the beach or, you know, the list goes on, love somebody, hug somebody, those are parasympathetic inputs. So how do I learn to balance those things out? And many people who are aspiring muscle building enthusiasts are very, very, driven, they're very like, I wanna build more muscle and that sometimes works against them.

Now for those who don't, might be watching this on YouTube for the first time or hearing about you, how would you describe, 'cause I've been knee deep in looking at all your work and there's so much and there's so many different elements that you bring to the game. What is it? How would you represent yourself or what would you say? Like what is your focus? 'Cause it was bodybuilding and it still is in part.

Yeah, for 20 years I pursued relentlessly with focus this idea of being the biggest human being on the planet as far as being muscular. At one point toward the end of my career, it wasn't the case, but early in my career, there was a point where I was probably the biggest bodybuilder on the planet. If you look at 2012, 2011, '12, '13-ish, I made most of the bigger guys, I was bigger than most of the bigger guys. And then once I kind of started to find other aspects of life, like having a family and a business, that was no longer the objective. So I learned how to create, and I'll put this in quotations 'cause it's a myth, but balance. So having kind of transcended this desire to accumulate muscle, I started to realize there was a whole bunch of other things that went into ultimately my framing of creating your greatest life, whatever that means for you, is crafting a life, designing a life. So I started looking at all the physical aspects or all the things that go into creating greatest physical body, and then there's this other piece of all the things that go into creating a resilient mind, right? So, or a brilliant mind, I guess. And like, you know, just kind of trying to dissect all those pieces and creating a framework for people that allows them to take it away and apply it. 'Cause if you just go, hey man, we're gonna create a great body, or hey, we're gonna create a brilliant mind, it's very abstract. But if you can start creating a framework for people where you give them these pillars, like, hey, check these boxes, now all of a sudden is attainable for people. And so my mission over the last maybe 3 to 5 years has been just first identifying all the pieces and then second, like identifying all the people who are an expert in each of these pieces and then helping people, not because I'm anything special, it was just because I'm kind of the conduit, right? I'm the person who has a platform and people listen to me for muscle building and I'm like, listen, man, you're trying to build muscle, but you're barking up the wrong tree. Like you're not checking all these boxes. You could try to build muscle all you want, you can work hard all you want, but if you're not doing all these other things that are essential, you know, the best programming in the world, as you know, is useless, it's futile. 'Cause we all know people that work hard that don't make money. We all know people that work hard that don't make, you know, don't build tremendous amounts of muscle. So realizing all those other things that need to go into being your best.

[Speaker] So when you say that there's other things, what do you classify as other things? Just looking after the other areas of life? Like, is it as simple as, well, you're pursuing muscle and then, all right, well, your relationship sucks. Work on your relationship, is that?

[Speaker] Yeah, so I've created a bit of a framework and so I've got my 6 pillars. And so anyone looking to build their greatest body needs to look at all of these pillars at some level. And at some point, one may be a bigger outlier than others or a bit of what I call bottleneck, meaning just holding you back. So at every point, everyone will have to address these 6 things. And training, I think, is very high on the continuum. Like your training needs to be very, very high on the continuum Without proper training, you don't build a great body. I think sleep needs to be very high on the totem pole. I think the autonomic nervous system, so stress and the autonomic nervous system management needs to be high on the totem pole. And then I add nutrition in there and I intentionally don't put it near the top because I think most people overstate the importance of nutrition. I get in a lot of heat for that. But I think when you learn to balance those other 3 things that come before it, nutrition is actually— no question it's important, but I think there's a little bit of a little wiggle room there.

It's almost a manifestation of getting the other things right.

Right, so, you know, and then I'll finish with my statement and then the last two, you know, mindset and mental health. So that includes relationships, that includes just the way you look at life. And the final one being your environment. And I think people overlook your environment, but ultimately we are just filters of our environment. We're always sensing our environment, the light, the air, the EMFs, like all that stuff is a huge consideration that becomes more and more prevalent the more technologically driven we become. So those are my 6 pillars of a lean, healthy, and muscular physique. And I think at every point we should be looking to check the boxes of each of them. So yeah, that's just the way I frame it. And I think it's been very successful, but getting back to this topic around nutrition, you know as well as anybody, your autonomic nervous system, your sleep, and your training impact what you do with your nutrition. So, you know, people are like, oh, it's all about macros. Well, no, it's not, because if I'm in a stress state— stress is called, you know, the, the ultimately fight-or-flight nervous system, and the parasympathetic is called rest and digest. So if I'm in a stress state eating a chicken breast and a piece of broccoli compared to being in a parasympathetic state eating a piece of chicken breast and a broccoli, it's two completely different things. So I don't think nutrition is as black and white as people think it is, right? I think there's a huge consideration there for what is my current internal state and how can I control that, which then, you know, impacts the way my body uses my nutrition. So I always say it's not about what you eat, it's how your body uses what you eat. And your cognitive state impacts more than anything. You're obviously— your GI tract and microbiome impact that. Your sleep impacts both of those things. Your light exposure impacts those things. So like The things people aren't considering that really go deep into determining whether you're gonna build muscle, whether you're going to lose fat, whether you're gonna be able to have ultimately a happy life, which is the absence of stress, not maybe the absence of stress, but the ability to adapt to stress.

So one question is on your Instagram, it says bodybuilding yogi. Now you are actually a yogi, is that correct or not so much or you just—

Oh no, no, dude. So I mean, I do yoga when I'm at home, I do yoga 6 days a week. Been on the road for a while now, so I don't do it. It's kind of funny to see, right? And think about, but one thing that I'm actually quite good at typically, maybe not right now, I haven't done it over a month, but is mobility. And I think it's a big part of muscle building. So when I think yoga or when you think yoga, what do you think about? Most people think like skinny people being very, very flexible. And that is a part of it. But I think for me, it's about not just mobility, but strength.

Stability.

And obviously this term that I've kind of attached myself to is equanimity, mental equanimity. So when I get into a yoga practice, it's going inside myself and making myself extremely comfortable being uncomfortable, like getting into positions that are, for a guy my size, very uncomfortable or very unstable or very atypical, and being able to stay there and be calm. Most people get there and they go like this, and you're like, shit. So your brain starts racing and like, how do you get into these really uncomfortable positions or previously uncomfortable positions and calm yourself and obviously create a serene mind while you're in these uncomfortable positions while creating stability? So you'll know what's the biggest bottleneck in building muscle stability, right? First, it's a skill. Like, do you have the skill of actually doing this thing? Second thing is stability. If you don't have stability, your body literally downregulates muscular contraction. Right. So by adding that component of stability in these end ranges where you typically would be uncomfortable, I think I've added to my ability to build and retain muscle with greater joint mobility, with greater joint integrity and less injuries. So that's kind of where that came in, man. And when I, when I left bodybuilding in 2016, 2017, maybe I really shifted into like this deep dive into yoga and understanding yoga and doing it on a really regular basis. It's just over the last maybe 6 months, it hasn't been the same 7-day practice like it was, but now it's still, when I'm at home, it's still at least every other day. And I've just learned to find a balance between my family time, my cardiovascular training, my weight training, and trying to find this kind of balance of what it looks like to be the new me, which for 20 years was very different than it is now.

[Speaker] So let me unpack that a little bit more, 'cause from the outside looking in, And this is for the record, our first conversation that we've ever had. And it's nice that it's on camera. But one of the things that I see is that perhaps the Ben of say 10, maybe 15 years ago, A-type, sees the wall, goes through the wall. And now it's almost, there's the wall there. Oh no, the obstacle is the way, this very Zen approach to life. So what is that? First of all, is that a fair?

[Speaker] Yeah, so 10, even less than that, like 5 years ago, I probably would've saw the wall and put my head through it, right? I would've run through it. And that was maybe my blessing and my curse a bodybuilder was, I saw that and I took it upon myself to get angry with it and like tried to use anger as my fuel to propel success. And that's a terrible place to be. And I'll talk about that if you like. But yeah, so now it's this acknowledgement that, and I talk about this a lot of time on my podcast too, every human being, or at least most human beings that I am aware of have some desire to accumulate things. Things, right? We all want to accumulate money, trinkets, muscle, whatever it happens to be. And it's all an external journey, right? People are trying to get things outside of themselves and bring them in to make them happy. So we're all trying to acquire fulfillment or happiness or whatever you want to define as like your internal satisfaction. We're all trying to accumulate something outside of ourselves. So for me, it was muscle. And I was like, man, when I get that muscle, when I'm Mr. Olympia, I'm gonna be the happiest guy and be so fulfilled and be so self-confident. And I got there, I was, you know, I guess I was 293 pounds, absolutely shredded, the day before a contest. And I looked at myself and it was the most insecure I'd ever been. I wouldn't take my shirt off in the gym. 4% body fat, absolutely shredded, and I was very insecure. So you get there and you're like, okay, well, why? And I was just one of these fortunate people who was able to accomplish my dream. It's the idea of making $100 million. If you make $100 million, everybody goes, yeah, I'd be happy. No, you wouldn't, you'd be the same insecure. Unhappy person you are now, just with more money. So, and that's the same with muscle. And when I realized that, I looked at myself and it was a very stressful time for me and I ultimately hated my life. I didn't, I don't know, like there's aspects of my life that I love, but I realized that I'd spent 20 years trying to accumulate this thing that was empty. So I just literally turned the mirror on myself or turned the light on myself and realized that the journey is within. That's where this kind of transcendence of external desire to accumulate external things came. And there's still a necessity to have things. Like, I still like things. I still like to be able to travel with my family and have money, but it's no longer the driving force, right? It's like, how do I create this internal sense of well-being, this internal sense of happiness, this internal joy that exists perpetually? It's not dependent on something outside of myself, right? It's like, how do you create it and let that light that's already inside you shine rather than having to go seek it from something outside of yourself, whether it be a relationship, whether it be money, whether it be muscle, whether it be food, whether it be drugs. It's all bullshit, man. The true journey and true happiness can come from within, and you can create it every single day in your mind by waking up every day and creating your mind first before the world creates your mind for you, right? And we always talk about, you know, most people go out in the world and they're living somebody else's dream. Somebody else goes, hey man, come work for me. You can do this and this and this for me. And then you're building somebody else's dream because you woke up this morning and you didn't create your dream. You didn't create your mindset before the world created it for you. So wake up every day, get in that mental state of ultimate meditation and get clarity on the person you wanna become. 'Cause without that, you can't transcend the life you already live, right? So you're either gonna let the world create you or you can create it first in your mind. It's either one or the other.

So on that, just as I suppose a summary or to add to, people watching this, and I imagine there's a lot of people watching this and perhaps even in our audience right now, is that they've got a goal. And let's say the goal is, you know, they wanna win the national title of some powerlifting or bodybuilding show and they become obsessed and, you know, you start coaching them and you say, well, the reason why you're not actually achieving your goal is because of that obsession. Is that, is that a fair question?

I don't think that's the case, no. The reason you're not, so achieving, goal achievement is not the problem. Like you still wanna achieve goals, but realizing the victory is not in the goal. Or the achievement of the goal, the victories in the day-to-day, subjecting yourself to the day-to-day challenge, right? So this is why I think muscle building is the most beautiful thing on the planet, or maybe strength training or whatever it is. It's because it's your daily battleground to become a better person. So when you're attached to the outcome, there's no victory 'cause you'll win or you not win. Say you win and then you get there and you're like, oh, well, this isn't quite what I thought. I haven't become something different. My life doesn't change the day I win. And if you don't win, now your self-worth is in the toilet because somebody else that's in bodybuilding, somebody else outside of you said you're not good enough. So now you're placing your self-worth on somebody else's judgment of you. So it's not about the idea of goal attainment being a problem, it's the idea of overlooking the ascension of the proverbial mountain, right? So I've been doing some mountain climbing. You climb the mountain and you don't go to the top of the mountain and go, wow, this is amazing. Everywhere along the mountain you stop and you go, Thank you, right? And you go, wow, this is fucking hard. This is amazing. So rather than going, oh, this is hard, I have to do this. No, like, I get to do this. So the best example was just a few months ago, I climbed a mountain in California and it was a 9-hour climb or something. And we were climbing to 13,000 feet. And the first hour I was fucking dreading it. I was like, oh my God, this is gonna be terrible. My legs were burning. Out of breath, I was hot, it was sunny, I was like, God, this is terrible. And then I literally like had this moment of instinct and realization where I go, wait, I'm with my two best friends, I'm outside, it's the most glorious day, I have my legs, I have my health, this is amazing. And in that instant I smiled and I was like, thank you. And I swear that next 8 or 7 and a half hours it felt like I was floating up the mountain. I wasn't in any discomfort. I was in joy the whole time. And just because I made that switch in my brain, and this is one of my quotes now that people often borrow from me, is like, in the deepest depths of your hardest hour, hardest minute, smile knowing you're becoming your greatest self, right? That's the objective is like, how do I subject myself to that every single day? So I subject myself to a challenge and you smile. So for you guys who train, like in the deepest depths of your hardest set, smile because that's your greatest opportunity to become better. That's your greatest obstacle that you've put in front of yourself. That's now like, hey man, I'm getting better. So don't get angry. Don't be like, oh, you know, like I have to do this. Fucking get to, man. Like you're alive. And again, another kind of tangent. I'm a big fan of a guy named Alan Watts and he has, he has He's got some amazing YouTube videos if you guys wanna watch. And he just makes this statement around perspective. And everyone's waiting for tomorrow, everyone's waiting for their life, this amazing life that they're gonna create, the future, they're talking about what's next, what's the afterlife gonna look like, how is it gonna be bliss? What if right now is bliss? Like the likelihood of us being alive is like 1 in trillions to 1, right? What if right now is heaven? What if right now is bliss? What if you're waiting your whole life and finally you're getting this chance and the sperm meets the egg and fucking you're happening, you're here. And now we're like, oh, but what's next? Well, no, this is it, man. Like this is your chance. This is your bliss. Fucking live your bliss, create it. And everyone's always waiting for what's next. And that was one of the most amazing opportunities for perspective that I've ever had. It's like, this is it, man. There's nothing after this. Like fuck, bring joy to this place. Bring light to this place. And make everybody live a better life because that's what it's about.

Now you said that that's not always how you've lived, but what was the catalyst to make you go?

There isn't one catalyst, right? There's this transcendence of external, you know, there isn't one event, right? It has to be accumulation events 'cause you can't just have an epiphany. Everyone's always looking for that one thing. What's the one thing that helped you put on 100 kilos of muscle or 100 pounds of muscle? Like nothing. It's this process of like every day having the desire to be a better person, to help people, to live from a place of joy, to live from a place of love. It's this perpetual evolution and just the realization it's not an end destination. It's already in you, man. It's who you are, right? Everyone is this amazing light, but for some reason throughout our childhood or throughout our life to this point, point, we've placed meaning on events for safety to keep us alive that says, you know, you're inadequate or you're not what you truly are inside. And, you know, it makes sense. Like, we're building walls around us to keep us safe and keep us protected as children. But, you know, long term, like, you need to learn to unwind or peel back the layers of the onion to realize, like, and you're already everything you ever need. It's already inside you. You are You are here, you are present, you're alive, you're walking, your mind works. And ultimately life is already the beautiful gift that you're given.

Now I know you're quite the student of personal development. I saw that you've had John Demartini, who I've been a student of for many years, Alan Watts, Jordan Peterson, you've got a lot of different people who you look at. Is there any processes that you either use personally or use with clients to help create or rewrite your past? Say for example, The Demartini Process, it's about looking at the benefits of these, you know, cells that have had a hard childhood. Yeah, correct. Is there anything that you look to and go, right?

[Speaker] Kind of all of them, man. But I think it all starts with mindfulness. And that sounds like this abstract term that people throw around, but what is mindfulness? It's paying attention, right? So paying attention to the way you speak, paying attention to the words that you use in your mind, paying attention to the words you use with other people. That's mindfulness for me. Is like, you know, how do you sit? How do you stand? How do you talk? How do you walk? All those things play into this concept of mindfulness, and that starts in meditation, right? Can I focus right now on a single thing for anything more than 7 seconds, which is a typical person's attention span, right? It's like, how do I bring my attention to this, to just how I'm sitting? How do I bring my attention to just how I'm breathing? How do I bring my attention to the person that's in front of me and not my phone, right? And that's mindfulness, is like looking around and being present, 'cause that's the only way you can begin to change. Without mindfulness, you can't even begin to change. And that's why I've become such an advocate of meditation and breathing, is like without that, change isn't possible.

[Speaker] When did you start meditation?

[Speaker] I kind of stuck my big toe in in 2007, maybe 2006. So I was going through a hard time and ultimately I was prepping for a contest or I shouldn't say hard time, like what I believed at the time to be a hard time, looking back on it, it was like, you idiot, like this is the greatest time of your life. And that's always the irony of stuff is like, we're always looking for like, I wanna win the show, I wanna do that thing and like, fuck, today's beautiful, like love this. But yeah, so I was lucky enough and blessed to have this this man in my life and ultimately he was my massage therapist or what I thought he was my massage therapist. He was an osteopath and at the time I was kind of asleep and proverbially and we started talking about stuff and he was just this guy who had his shit together, 4 kids, successful business, really articulate, really great outlook on life. I was like, man, like just talking to you makes me feel better. I leave his place every day feeling better. And I'd ask him like, how? He goes, well, what are you doing to develop your mind? Well, nothing. Like, well, what book are you reading now? None. Well, why not? Like, every day that goes by that you're not developing your mind, you're ultimately regressing. So he gave me a book. It was a book by Wayne Dyer. And just kind of getting the idea of becoming present. Literally my life in that moment. I was like, this is what I need. I was going through so much internal turmoil, how the definition I put on it. And it was just like stress over my situation or my inability to mentally be able to cope with my situation. And he just said, well, sit down and meditate, man. And I didn't know what that meant. And I was like everybody else, fidgety and uncomfortable and like sitting 300 pounds, like sitting on my legs. I'm like, God, this is terrible. My back started to hurt. And realize that that's the meditation, right? That's the joy of it, that like sitting in discomfort and pain is meditation because why? Like it's the same idea of that time in my life I was going through this hard time. Well, that meditation is your immediate opportunity to sit through that hard time, right? It's like if your legs hurt, if your back hurts, if you wanna scratch that itch, Like, don't, and find the joy in it and find the realization that like your nervous system is there to keep you alive and keep you safe. And like, thank you, like thank you for this awareness of this position or thank you for the awareness of this discomfort. And then eventually breathing it in and it goes away. You're like, oh, so what is pain, right? What is the itch? It's just some manifestation of your nervous system and you are in control of your nervous system, right? We have a body, we are not a body, we are a consciousness. And if we can learn to be aware of our body and guide our body, it can be this beautiful experience. So, you know, most people aren't even willing to become mindful enough to be aware of that.

Hey folks, hope you're enjoying this interview with BPAC Ben Pakowski. While you're at it, make sure you subscribe to us if you're watching this on YouTube to get more great interviews just like this one. And also leave us a review if you're listening to this on iTunes. While you're at it, check out my Wolfpack program. It's for trainers who wanna go from good to great, giving you everything from training, nutrition, and the business practices to really elevate your business to the next quantum realm. So that one's at www.personaltrainermentoring.com. You can download a couple of freebies that I've got there if you just check out the website there. Let's get back to it. This interview is absolutely a slobberknocker. See you on the other side. And now you, when you went to university, did kinesiology and you finished as a qualified kinesiologist. Did you ever practice as a kinesiologist?

No, when I finished school, I got a job as a pharmaceutical sales rep and decided that I wanted to get in good shape so I could look like a stud in my suit. I ultimately just wanted to, you know, make money and, you know, be with women. And so I was like, I gotta get in I gotta get in shape. And I got in shape and I was like, well, I need a goal to get in shape. So I set a goal to do a show and I did a show and I won. I did another show 3 weeks later and I won. And I was like, oh, that's kind of cool. I'll do another one 6 months later and I won. And then people started paying me to work out. So I was like, okay, well, let's move to California and make this a thing. And I always loved bodybuilding, but I didn't think, like you never think you're ready, right? I never thought I was quite ready. So I was like, oh, you know, just keep going. And then at that point I was like, I'm gonna win no matter what I do. So that's where the switch kind of happened. I always just loved training and I talk about this all the time. Like I never said I was a bodybuilder 'cause I never thought I was a bodybuilder. I was like a dude who likes to work out. And then, you know, things happened quick. I started getting paid to work out and I just loved it. But then when you turn pro, it's like, you know, you go from the top of the amateurs to the bottom of the pros. And I realized like, unless I get really good at this stuff, I don't stand a chance. And I was obsessed. Like you talk about, I was obsessed, man. Like I needed to do everything possible to be the best in the world. And that was my vision. Like I will be the best in the world. So that's where the relentless obsession with accumulating knowledge and accumulating the ability to work and all these things kind of added up to my knowledge base and my desire to figure out my mind. 'Cause my mind was always my weakest link, right? My physical ability was probably great, but my mental ability was always hard. Like I struggled to challenge myself. I hated training. Like I didn't like being uncomfortable. I grew up as like an overweight, lazy kid, right? Family of alcoholics. Nobody ever graduated high school. Everybody was obese. So I didn't come from like motivated people who were like army people and driven and like very proper. Like I was none of that shit. Played video games and ate Doritos, that was my life. So how do you turn that into your greatest asset? Well, it's because I had pain, man. I sucked, like I was lazy, I hated the hard work, but I also hated the fact that I knew I was lazy. So that drove me to be like, no, like I will not be lazy. Like what do I have to do to not be lazy? And that was what drove that chip on my shoulder that ultimately propelled success. So success.

With the kinesiology background, Did that paint or change the lens of how you approached your training or anything in terms of nutrition?

Yeah, so at 17 years old, I took an incredible desire to learn, right? I just wanted to learn everything I possibly could about building muscle because I loved it so much. So that's why I ended up getting kinesiology. And so I've always just had this desire to understand the process. So I don't know that the degree itself had any, I mean, obviously had many positive, additions to my life, but I don't know that it was the greatest catalyst. It was, you know, gave me anatomy knowledge, it gave me some physiology knowledge, but for the most part, as many people will know, like, you almost have to end up unlearning what you learned in school when you actually want to go into the application of it, because you're learning to, you know, this rote memorization skill from a textbook, but you're not learning any application. So, you know, the anatomy was beneficial, the physiology was beneficial, but like actual application of the stuff, it was almost like relearning it all.

Now going into the next, I suppose, part of this interview is talking about your business and life. When I've been researching you online, listen to a lot of your podcasts, I've noted that, you know, you've got the MI40 program, you've got the MI40 gym, you've got the MI40 Nation, you've got your courses which you travel all around the world for, you've got your muscle camps, you've done I think 2 documentaries that I've seen. Maybe more that I haven't, a wife, 3 kids, and a lot of this was done, built when you were competing. And yet here you stand, very centered, very grateful, very, whereas, you know, it's very common for other people who've built and have these different arms of their businesses, including myself, to get quite overwhelmed and let, I suppose, the river run wild. What, have there been, I suppose, have there been times where you've gone off on track what has brought you back and is it easy now today? I mean, are the businesses self-managed? Like how does your time—

It's never easy, man. And I don't think there's anything, there's any such thing as going off track. I think it's all a part of the process, right? Every step is a step in the right direction for what you need to learn right now. So for me, it's never, it hasn't been a straight line. It hasn't been like, you know, easy, but it's always what you prioritize, you become, you know? If I want, if I realize my biggest pain in my life is my ability to be present in love, and well, then I need to make that a priority, right? And that's all it is, is when I was an aspiring bodybuilder, I realized my greatest pain came from my inability to control my mind or my laziness. So I made that a strength. And then you make that just by focusing on it for a long time. The greater the pain, the greater the focus ultimately, or the greater the motivation. You know, now my— after having left bodybuilding and get to, you know, the top of the bodybuilding world, I realized my biggest pain was no longer my physical body. It was now my mental ability to love life and be present and be a great parent and be a great husband and just a great human being. So, you know, like everything else in life, you just shift your focus there and you go, well, now I'm going to spend my time being better at this. And when you do something, you do it. You go all in and you go, okay, like how can I accumulate this knowledge and these skill sets to make this no longer the bottleneck in my life? Like I wanna be able to push through this and you'll find the thing that most resonates with you and pulls you rather than having to push yourself, it'll pull you. And so for me, I feel this desire now to shift away from the physical journey, although I love the physical journey, I think it's a huge part of the transcendence of the mental journey because it's your daily battleground, right? Where else in life do you get an opportunity in life to put yourself in front of an opportunity for discipline? Like discipline is the gateway to progress. So where else in life do you get that? So whether strength training or weight training or any type of athletic endeavor is the opportunity daily to develop your character, right? Like, am I the type of person who says something and does it? Well, yes or no, right? Like if you want to develop that character, just, you know, I say this in all of my talks, it's like you need 3 to 5 daily opportunities for discipline to win the day. And if you write them down the night before and you go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, check them off, you win the day. And now I'm building self-confidence, I'm building self-worth, I'm building a belief in myself that I'm the type of person that will get it done. And all of a sudden, gosh, I'm a supremely confident person. And I don't do it every day. Like most days I do, but I don't do it every day, but I know like things get in the way. Family gets in the way, kids get in the way. Like if I'm trying to sit down and write my journal at 6:00 in the morning, my daughter wakes up and I'm not gonna be like, hey baby, like go over there, I need to write my journal. Like shit gets in the way, but you do your best as many times, you know, without making excuses. We all make excuses, but you do your best to kind of set yourself up for discipline and develop the inner character, the inner knowing that I get shit done, man. I'm the person when I say something, it's gonna get done. Now you believe in yourself, right? It's like people who cheat on their diet. Nobody gives a shit if you cheat on your diet, you give a shit. Like if I have a client and they don't want to tell me that they had a cheeseburger, I'm like, man, why would I care if you have a cheeseburger? Nobody cares. The only person that should care is you. And like, why would you let yourself down like that? If you have a goal, fucking do it. 'Cause you're the only person that cares. And when you do it and you follow through and you know inside that I'm the type of person that does it, what just happens to your self-confidence? All of a sudden you're sitting up a little straighter. All of a sudden you're a little more confident. All of a sudden now I'm willing to go out and make that big dive into that huge goal that nobody else is willing to do, 'cause I have the self-confidence to know that I'm gonna follow through, man. I'm gonna set a huge goal 'cause no matter what, I'm not gonna stop. That's a character trait that we can all develop with just those daily little victories, that daily little discipline.

[Speaker] So what I'm really getting from you is that you have the raging fire of obsession to get shit done, done, but it's also tempered by calming yourself down, listening to you. Because I mean, life is noisy, right? I can only imagine on your Instagram.

It should be, man. It should be. It's the idea of reactivity versus responsiveness, right? Like, if you can calm down your mind, so like think of your mind like the gears in a car, right? If I'm always in 5th gear and I'm always revving the engine high, things around you are just moving too fast. Your brain is going too fast. You can't pay attention. So if I slow myself down every morning when I get up, now all of a sudden things move slowly. I can see things, I can hear things, I can feel things, I can be creative, I can pay attention to stuff. Now I know which direction to go rather than just going through life with blinders on going fast. It's moving with intent but in a focused way and I can pay attention to everything now. I can hear people, I can feel things, I can feel myself and I know which direction to go just intuitively, right? Rather than just, most people are going through life ultimately asleep. They got the radio on all the time, they always talking 'cause they don't wanna hear what's going on in their mind, they're always doing something. If you're that person, this is what you need to do, you need to slow down. And that's another one of my statements that people like to quote me on is like, if you can't, therefore you must. So if you can't do, I can't meditate, think about it. If you can't slow down, if you can't think, if you can't set a goal and achieve it, you better make that your priority. Whatever it is that you can't do is the very thing that you must do.

So like let's say for example, you've got a student or whoever, they're caught up in the Instagram world, emails, business, training. The first thing perhaps, I don't know, would be getting them to slow down and meditate. Is that the first part you go to or?

No, not even. I think that for most people that's another step down the line 'cause I think the idea of telling you guys to meditate, like, yeah, I want to do it. You'll do it for one day and won't do it again. I think it's breathing. So everybody right now, just like whether you're listening or whether you're sitting here, like, take a breath. How long can you make that breath? How much can you pay attention to what's actually happening in that breath? The expansion of your rib cage, the contraction of your diaphragm. Like, can you feel that? And where do you feel it? And then pay attention to, like, the sensation of sitting, right? How does it feel to sit? Like, feeling your contact with the seat, feeling your posture, feeling the feeling the heat in your body, the way the air conditioning hits your body, the muscle tone in your face, the muscle tone in your neck and your body. Like just start paying attention to that stuff. That's step one, right? It's like, just fucking sit there. And if it's a couple of times a day and you may only have awareness a few times a day, but take that awareness and use it as an opportunity to go. And you can do it when you're driving, you can do it when you're sitting, you can do it when you're at the gym. Like, and that's why, another reason I love the way that I train now is it's literally this opportunity to become mindful, right? Connect, feel, don't do, don't do, feel, right? It's not just about doing, it's about like paying attention to the body and feeling your positions and feeling the way your muscles contract and just ultimately becoming present and then taking that and going, now I can take this muscle and I can just hammer it because I'm so focused on it rather than just going in the gym, putting your music up as high as possible and fucking working hard. If you're working hard, you're turning your brain off. It's like putting the music up really loud. It's not a bad thing. Sometimes we like to listen to music and sing, but at the same time, sometimes we just wanna connect with ourself and become present in that moment. And that I think is the gateway to the first step anyway. So present, being present, breathing, and can you just pay attention to stuff?

And practically when you've grown your businesses to the point they are now, whether it's the gym or the programs, you've brought other people into heads of department managing these things and they share a similar mindset, I'd assume.

It's amazing how when I was really focused on muscle and like just the, what I call the Xs and Os, like sets and reps and volume load, I brought very particular people into my life who are really good at that stuff. And now that I've kind of started to become aware of all the other things that go into living this great life, such different people, like amazing people who have great hearts and great intention and full of love and sincerity who make me better. So like now my team is not just people who are like good at processes, it's no way, it's like these incredible human beings that are making me better. Every time I interact with them, I'm like, I feel literally blessed to be like, oh my gosh, I just wanna give you a hug 'cause I'm so grateful for the energy you brought to this room today, for the presence you brought. It sounds weird, but like everyone who's in my life right now, or most people, not all, but most are just adding to my life rather than taking away, which is such a beautiful thing, man. And I wake up every morning and before I even open my eyes, I'm grateful. And I start in this little circle, the bullseye, and I expand outward. Like when I started in the circle, I mean literally like my daughter's often laying right beside me. So I'm gonna start with being grateful grateful for her and then my wife and then my sons and then like just building the circle and going, God, these people impact my life and I'm so blessed to be able to sit here with you guys and talk about all these businesses and talk with you and like be in Australia and like wake up and be grateful for the sun and the air and the fuck, like people are, it's such an amazing feeling. Like if you can create gratitude in your nervous system, like bring that to every situation in life, right? Take a second and just create that circle and you're bringing this emotion of gratitude and then it's actually real, right? Feel it and you can pass it to everybody. You guys can feel it on me. And like, that's a cool thing to bring to life, man, is, you know, bringing that emotion and a true sense of gratitude because then people will bring it to you.

You were talking before about how you started as a kid from probably not a disadvantage, but it was behind the eight ball, so to speak, in terms of, you know, let's say knowing about business.

Yeah.

Fair to say? Sure. So you've built a successful business. People people come to see you, become, I suppose, a, you know, a go-to guy in terms of muscle building. I noted one of the stories that you told in one of your interviews was that the supplement companies came to you, I think it was 2008, and said, name a price, gave you a contract, and then 5 months, 6 months later, they've pulled it. I was wondering, was that an instigator for you to go, right, I need to get good at this business stuff, I need to protect myself, this can happen in the future?

Yeah, it was. So, it just gave me an awareness of like, okay, so I'm not in control of anything. Like no matter how good I am, no matter how well I perform or how much value I think I bring to this company, there's things outside of their control and my control that mean at any moment they could take it away from me. So when my girlfriend at the time, now wife, got pregnant, that realization was very present in my mind to realize I was like, okay, you're doing okay to support one person, but you're not doing okay to support four. So I went from one to four, 'cause my wife already had a son. So I went from supporting myself and being this bodybuilding, whatever, single guy to now supporting a family of four. And I was like, okay, well, you can't depend on that money over there 'cause tomorrow it could be gone. So if you wanna be a responsible human, you better start learning business more than you, you're learning this body thing. So it was built out of necessity. The business was literally started out of necessity, like, okay, I need to take control of this. But the evolution of it was ultimately just because when I start something, typically I love what I do. And the obsession comes from, like, well, okay, now I'm impacting a few thousand people, or maybe whatever, but how do I take it to a few million people? So that's the obsession now drives me. You know, like I set the goal for this year to read one book a week, and it's 52 business books. It's not 52 muscle building books, which, you know, may or may not be the right decision. But I just want to learn, you know. I understand that if you're going to impact more people, you have to learn to expand the vision and you have to expand the culture. And building that culture is such a big part of, you know, creating an awesome business like you have here, right? It's like you've created a culture where people come here because— not because of of who you are and what you teach them, but because of the energy you bring to it, the belief system you have, the person you are. And I think that's a big part of business and that's what I'm learning. It's like, what are all those facets that go into building a worldwide enterprise? Stealing your business name.

Yeah, name, I like it. It's trademarked though. So where did you start? Where did you start in your business journey? Like, was it a book? Was it a mentor? Did you sign up for a course?

Oh, so yeah, it was Vince Del Monte, man. Like, so in 2011, he hired me like right before my wife got pregnant. He hired me to train him for a contest. You know, we went to college together and we knew each other very vaguely in college, like in passing, we'd be like bar buddies, you know? And so he calls me, he goes, hey man, I'm doing the WBFF World Championships. You know, I just watched your movie on TV on like, airplane or something. And he goes, I love what you're doing, would you teach me? And I was like, sure, man. And he had an online business and I trained him for the contest. He, I don't know if he didn't win the show or maybe he did win the show. I think he won the show. He did a few shows, we did a few shows together. And he goes, dude, do you realize like nobody in the world is talking about this stuff? Like where did you learn this stuff? And I was like, I don't know, man, it's what I do. He goes, you need to teach people this. And it just happened to be at the same time where my wife got pregnant and I was like, Perfect. You know, tell me what I got to do. So Vince was really my mentor, man. And he's an amazing guy and comes from this amazing family and has an amazing heart. So he was my mentor in like the first 2 years of business. We were partners and he kind of guided my thought process. I was like, how did you learn this stuff, man? Like, he's like, well, this. I was like, okay. So that was kind of my first business mentor. And then, you know, he instilled in me, if you want to grow as a person, you reinvest 10% invest 10% of your income in yourself, say reinvest 10% of your income in business growth or personal development. So every year ever since it's at least that much, often more now in books and courses and mentorships and masterminds, just 'cause like you gotta pay to play, man. If you wanna be around great people, if you wanna become great, you have to be around great people. So that's a big part of my journey now is, and it's really selective, you guys know, picking who you want to be around, not just from a knowledge perspective, but from a like, I want to be like that person perspective. Like there's many people out there who are making hundreds of millions of dollars who are pissed off, unhappy, and angry and would rather trade places with any of you guys. So there's a lot of levels to it. It's not just about money, right? It's about, you know, how do we create an awesome business that impacts millions of people while still being this grounded, level-headed, happy, joyful, fulfilled man ultimately.

Where did BPAC come from, the nickname?

Funny, dude. Like my whole name, my nickname growing up was Pac. Like people called me Pac, but BPAC, the most ridiculous thing that stuck was I was in New York in 2010 at the New York Pro. And you guys know Jose Raymond, the bodybuilder? So he's a 212 bodybuilder and it's the first time I met him and his girlfriend at the time, she's like, hey, we're going to the gym or something, Jose and I were going to the gym and he calls her on speakerphone and goes, hey, I'm at the gym with Ben Pakulski. And she goes, what, BPAC? First time I've ever heard it and forever it stuck. I don't know if that's the only way. Yep.

One of the things, I mean, you've accomplished so much and one of the things I see with achievement, especially people who want to grow a business is setting goals and achieving them. Achieving them create, I suppose, an inertia or plateau in achieving the goal, meaning that let's say if you have $10 and you get an extra dollar, that's 10% of your worth. It's like, well, you're really motivated for that. Or if you have $10 and someone offers you $1,000, you're super motivated. But the more you achieve and the more, I suppose, money in this metaphor that you make, the less motivated you are to earn, say, a dollar or $10. If you've got, say, a million dollars in the bank, well then $10 isn't really that valuable to you. I use that as a metaphor to pre-frame this this question, which is you've achieved so much in bodybuilding, you've achieved so much in life with your businesses going around, you've got that, what is the fire there for you keeping you? I know you said before about gratitude, but is it that simple or is there an X factor?

[Speaker] So I guess the question is, and I say this to most people, like as a successful business owner, you probably can relate to this, is who's your worst critic of you? So when you say like, hey man, here's all the things you've accomplished, it's in one ear out the other. And I'm like, well, I've done some cool things and I'm super grateful for what I've been able to accomplish. But I don't think, I don't focus on all these things that I've accomplished. I focus on all the things that I want to accomplish. And it's always been my blessing and my curse as a bodybuilder. Like people will be like, dude, your legs are great. I'd be like, yeah, but I could do like that. Like I'd walk off stage and some people would go ask the judges like, what can I do better? I'd be like, I already know what I gotta do better. Like I know more than you guys do. So there's always like, from the outside it looks like there's all these great things, but on the inside my brain just goes to, well, that needs to be a little bit better. I could be a little bit better with that. I'd like to be a little bit more scheduled with that. And my big bottleneck right now, like you guys, I'm transparent with the world and I try, 'cause it will be a strength of mine is scheduling. Like when you get really busy, sometimes, blessing and curse of entrepreneurialism is be careful what you wish for, right? Because when it happens, it comes like a dump of water, like a barrel of water, and it's standing in front of a fire hose trying to take a drink. It's like so many things coming at you, you're like, what do I say yes to, what do I say no to? And then you're trying to balance family and physicality and business, and you're like, you have so many things. So be careful what you wish for, 'cause when it comes, it's hard and learning to balance schedule. So create a schedule, you gotta schedule everything and I'm not good at it. I hired somebody recently to do it. I'm like, here, just when I wake up in the morning, I expect an email that says, do all these things in this order. And then you gotta create somebody you trust 'cause there's so like scheduling this stuff and like, it's hard, man. And you end up running into problems like on the way here, which now I've got a 3:30 appointment. It's like, okay, I've got, you know, like there's so many things that happen that get in the way and if I'm doing it myself, I tend to give my time and attention to every single person I meet, which is maybe my greatest blessing in life or my greatest asset, 'cause people feel my sincerity in wanting to help. But at the same time, now I've got an appointment that I just missed 30 minutes ago because I'm giving you too much time and attention. So, you know, the first person's happy, second person's pissed off, can't win. So you have to learn to just schedule and be ruthless with your scheduling and be able to say no to things that aren't really contributing to your big picture vision, right? And there's a great book called The One Thing and it says exactly what that is. It's like pick that one thing and say no to everything else because if your one thing in this world is your greatest contribution to humanity, you're doing a disservice to the world to not focus on that. Like if you're focusing on like moving your furniture and doing your laundry and making your breakfast, that's time I'm not investing to your greatest value and you get that with the martini stuff. Cut away everything else, you can just focus on this 'cause this is your greatest contribution to the world and that's your greatest contribution to humanity, which you need to spend, you owe it to yourself and the world to spend all of your time on that, cut away everything else.

How many staff do you have?

Last year I was as high as 12, I ended up doing some pretty big cutbacks, I've got, 8, maybe? 8?

And that's it, they're at the gym?

Oh, spread around. I've got some people, so I've got some that are remote employees, then I've got some of the gym as well.

Yeah, awesome.

Actually, including the gym, there'd be more than 8, so. Right.

And is it multiple partnerships in the gym or just you?

Just myself.

Yeah. And my wife. Switching gears, talk about nutrition. You said something about 23andMe genetic testing, or not really nutrition, but on the topic of getting into that, area. You've done it, but you said 50% of the time the test's incorrect. I hope I'm not misquoting you.

Yeah, that's just, yeah, that's a quote. I don't know that as definitive, but from what I've seen, all the, even the geneticists say that sometimes the information isn't completely accurate or isn't complete. And I'm not an expert, so I don't know that I could comment.

Okay, but you still used it and find value?

Yeah, I think Anytime you're getting an objective value rather than a subjective measure, like, it makes a lot of sense to go off of it, right? So, and I'll often like try to match them up. So I'll do my DNA test and then I'll do what— I don't know if you guys have it over here— like a NutriVeil, which is like just basically looking at all your metabolic pathways and looking if they match up.

So like an organic acid test?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know, does what it says genetically match what's actually happening with the organic acid test. And honestly, most of the time it's pretty darn close. So it's pretty interesting to see like if I'm deficient in one pathway or lack the enzyme for one pathway genetically, 95% of the time it's gonna match up with your organic acid test. So you learn to just compensate nutritionally.

So you're using a lot of labs, like if I was a client or a client came to you, what labs would you run?

Just DNA, blood and organic acid pretty much. And sometimes we'll do stool if you've got some gut stuff, but most people don't love playing in their stool. So, you know, leave it in the toilet. And so we just do the blood. And if someone has stress problems, we can do cortisol, we do hair.

I know you speak to a lot of great people on your podcast. What's new for you in terms of the world of supplementation, nutritional training, and like, what are you playing with now?

Not much, man. Supplementally, I'm really about basics and I use supplements like the way I frame the business is like, you know, most people live below baseline, meaning they've got gaps to fill in. So the way I use supplements, just like fill in the gaps, man, fill in the, bring yourself up to baseline. So then you can look at, you know, once you're at baseline, then and only then can you start looking at, well, now I got to optimize my body and then I got to perform and then I got to build muscle. It's this kind of pyramid that we speak of. But as far as supplements go, man, there's very few things like I love, you know, I love Alpha GPC was one that like, I use every day. I think most people should use that. And I use just your basic stuff like your magnesium, methylated B vitamins, fish oil, collagen. Those are kind of like your 5, like use these every day. But the big thing that I'm focusing on, not supplementally, is the autonomic nervous system, man. If you're not paying attention to that, you're not performing. Like you're not nowhere near your capacity if you're not paying attention to that, whether you're a strength athlete or a bodybuilder or someone just looking optimize their physique or optimize their mind, if you're not paying attention to your autonomic balance, you're not anywhere near your capacity.

So that needs to be included in every training plan regardless of what type of athlete that you are, regardless of what type of person you are really.

Yeah.

Where does the kinesiology fit in? I mean, are you doing any muscle testing with supplementation or something?

No, so kinesiology in Canada isn't actually any muscle testing. So it's just really the— well, it is in the higher levels, but it's just the explanation exploration of movement. It's more like biomechanics. So that's where that fits in.

Has your view around nutrition and supplementation changed in the last 2 years?

Yeah. So like yourself, and we're both students of Charles and Charles is a big advocate of like, if you've got this problem, you gotta take this supplement and you realize that sometimes those supplements are causing more harm than good. So I've just become a minimalist, man. Like people are like, what do you travel with? I was like collagen and protein. Fish oil. Like, really, that's it. And that's one of my best learning points for the last few years is like, if you're taking in a lot of animal protein, you need to replace glycine and collagen as well, 'cause there needs to be a synergy. There's a guy named Chris Masterjohn, he's a brilliant guy, who talks about a 1:3 ratio of collagen to meat protein, animal protein. And so he gives specific mechanisms around methionine and why it needs to be on balance that way. So that's something I've added in and feel feels so much better. Like as a heavy training bodybuilder, there's a lot of wear and tear on your joints, your soft tissues. And as soon as I started adding glycine and collagen in those ratios, my body feels great. Yeah, great. So yeah.

Yeah, any brands in particular recommend? I know I use the collagen from Designs for Health. We get that in, that's great stuff.

Doing my own. You got your own? Oh yeah. Not yet, it's coming. So I've actually combined greens and collagen just 'cause I think it's a, It's a beautiful, yeah, it's a beautiful combination. Most people need it and it's a really simple formula of greens, tastes amazing, and collagen. I actually add it in my coffee. Like, so if you know everyone's doing like the Bulletproof coffee, I'll put MCT and collagen and greens in and it's like—

Speaking of Charles, he would always come here and measure someone's hamstring and say, "Oh, you're fat." And Australia has the worst sign of estrogen in the world and blah, blah, blah. So I suppose with that question, what things do you look for look at, 'cause I know you interviewed that guy on glyphosate. Glyphosate. Glyphosate. And you know, there's a lot of great takeaways from that podcast, which highly recommend everyone check out. What supplements is it, Crucera, that's from Thorn, but the sulforaphane, DIM, is it these type of things that you're—

For removing xenophages?

Yeah, yeah. Or protection from the—

Sure, yeah. Sulforaphane is usually my go-to and saunas really. Like, so making sure you're getting really good, you know, quality food, lots of vegetables, make sure you're supporting methylation, the detox pathways, and saunas. I think saunas is just your body's natural detox mechanism, right? So, you've got urine, stool, and sweat, and that's it, man. So, support those, drink more water, take more fiber, and sweat more. That's exercise and sauna.

You're not talking about infrared, just standard sauna?

I think both of them are useful. I don't know that I've ever seen— I know Charles talked about infrared being better, but I don't know that I've ever seen any data on infrared being any better than that. Like detox pathways, they talk about it, but you know, I don't, I don't know.

I spoke to Mark Ottobre about this and he said all the papers are on normal sauna, not infrared. I do kind of understand where people say if you do have breast implants or breast augmentation, don't use it because it's going to leak. Yeah, yeah, correct. Is there a supplement you can't live without?

No, man. And that's funny, I live my life since the time I was 16 years old with some strange focus on like, if there's anything I can't live without, I need to live without it. So, you know, I used to kind of cycle through, sometimes I'd wear a belt and sometimes I wouldn't. And sometimes I would wear headphones and sometimes I wouldn't, because the idea of dependence on anything, growing up in a family that was dependent on everything outside themselves, I had some strange awareness, literally as early as 7 years old of like, I don't wanna depend on anything. So I would intentionally not, like bring my belt or I intentionally not bring my headphones or I intentionally not bring my supplements. Like you don't need to depend on anything. Will you die if you don't have multivitamin for a week or greens for a week? No, like cycle through things. And we're meant to live in a cyclical manner, right? Like there should always be winter, there should always be spring, there should always be summer, metaphorically and literally, even though we don't really have it here, but we have seasons, right? So, I mean, it is what it is. We have seasons of life we have seasons of food and I think that's the same way I frame my nutrition, right? It's like, if it's not sunny outside, I probably don't eat a lot of fruit. I'll probably eat a lot of meat and a lot of fats. And if it's sunny outside, well, I'll shift into eating more carbohydrates 'cause the vitamin D is gonna allow your body to use more carbohydrate effectively. And there's tons of interesting research around that, but that just seems to make the most sense to me intuitively, like eat with the seasons, eat with the weather, eat with the sun.

Yeah, not just eat like a lab rat. Laboratory.

Well, and I did, and I did for many years, right? And that served its purpose, but I realized how dysfunctional I was and how unhealthy I ultimately became because of all those things. And, you know, is that what allowed me to become better? Maybe. But could I have done it in a more intelligent way, had less discomfort, less ultimate, you know, dysfunction? For sure. No question. I could have been way better if someone had said, hey man, like, you need to help me with— or I'll help you with this, like, and It's funny, so I started at 18 years old, at 17, my first year university, looking for this one guy who could like guide me in all these things, like someone who could teach me how to eat, how to think, how to train, and I couldn't find them and they didn't exist. And I ended up finding Charles and Milos that way and they both become very good friends. But those were the two guys that I first looked to as being the most intelligent guys in the sport of bodybuilding and kind of became my mentors, people that I looked to for answering those questions. And that's maybe why I've kind of tried to, to model myself after them and to become that guy. So if anyone wants to build their greatest body, they're like, you gotta go see that guy.

Now I know you've got so much great information to share, we could speak to you all day, but one of the games I suppose that I like to play with all my guests is the one-word game or word association.

I'm not good at this stuff, I'm not good at this stuff, but I'll try.

If I say, say superhero, you might say Spider-Man, for example.

As you can tell, I'm not a one-word kind of guy.

Well, you can say a few more words, but we'll try and keep it keep it nice and tight. So, favorite Australian city?

So wait, I need to say one word?

Yeah, one slash a sentence.

I'm in Melbourne.

I'm excited you went for that. Exactly. Favorite bodybuilder?

Dorian.

Bodybuilding mags?

Flex.

Favorite supplement?

Alpha GPC.

Least favorite supplement?

Casein Protein.

Respected peer.

Dr. Jordan Shallow. Mentor. Good question. Mentor. Don't know if I have one right now. I need one. Well, so Wayne Dyer.

Protein powders.

Do you want to type or just yes or no? Whatever comes to mind. Uh, sure.

Favorite athlete?

Uh, wow. Um, Sidney Crosby.

Who's that?

Hockey player. He's just a— he's a hockey player who's got this incredible work ethic and this mentality. He's the best hockey player in the world, but he's unbelievable.

Comfort food?

Peanut butter.

A food you hate?

Vegemite. Totally agree.

We're at a bar, what are we drinking?

Jack Daniel's. Probably water now, but in college it was Jack Daniel's.

Favorite exercise? At the moment?

Deadlifts. I was gonna say curling on the squat rack.

Least favorite exercise?

Shoulder press.

A must-read book for every fitness professional?

Fitness professional. Anything by Joe Dispenza.

A must-read book, resource, or course for business?

Russell Brunson.

Podcast, sorry?

Yeah, I was gonna say he's got two books, Dotcom Secrets and Expert Secrets.

Podcast you listen to?

Ben Greenfield, Dave Asprey, Tim Ferriss, And then some other obscure ones. I don't listen to podcasts, I listen to people. So if there's like a thing I'm fascinated with right now, I'm gonna go find everything that person's done. So like if I'm trying to learn the autonomic nervous system, there's particular people I'm gonna find, I'm gonna like search them on iTunes and listen to everything they've done. So I don't usually listen to podcasts. I mean, I do, but.

[Speaker] Yeah, just the way you select is different. Something you would like to see more of.

Kindness.

Something you'd like to see less of?

Incompetence.

A movie? Rocky. Nice. A hobby?

My kids' favorite movie. Hobby? Reading.

The biggest myth in bodybuilding?

Hard work is all that matters.

Social media?

Useful tool.

A superhero?

I'm not very much of a superhero guy. The Hulk?

Number one parenting tip?

They hear nothing of what you say and see everything you do.

Very good. I think a good place to— well, we'll do this and then we'll get to the other part, but finish this sentence. I wished— I'll just read them out and then you can kind of— there's I wished, I liked, it's time for, and shout out to. So first one is complete the sentence. I wished.

I wish or I wished?

I wished blank.

Well, it's not blank, it's nothing. Like I realize now in my evolution that it's all been there for a reason, man. Every single learning opportunity has been a blessing for me. So, and everything that will happen will happen and that should happen will happen. So, nah, nothing.

I liked.

I don't know. I don't know what I liked. I liked pushing myself further than I thought was physically possible. That was one thing I've liked in my life.

It's time for?

Excellence. Upgrading your life 1% every day. Excellence.

And shout out to? Man, everybody.

Sending everybody love and sending everybody who, you know, who's impacted me in any way. I'm so grateful for all my mentors, for my teachers, and all of everyone literally who impacts my life. If I get to spend 5 minutes with you, I'm probably taking more away from it than you are, just because I'm grateful for the time, the energy, and the exchange is making me better. You know, we talk about going into a class and me being the teacher, but really it's just, you know, giving me the opportunity to teach, so it allows me to reflect on my ability to learn. And, um, yeah, I'm grateful for everybody, for all of you guys. Thank you.

And how can people stay in touch and learn more about you?

Instagram seems to be the first place of contact, um, so that's BPak Fitness, BPak Fitness. I've got the Muscle Intelligence Podcast, previously called the Muscle Expert Podcast, just switched on January 1st. The only reason for the change was I don't claim to be a muscle expert, and there's a lot more about on the podcast than just muscle. It goes with my business. So that's a great place to find me. You've got benpakulski.com. I've also got MI40 Nation and probably this week we'll be relaunching the website called Muscle Intelligence, muscleintelligence.com. So that'll be out. So lots of different places.

Ladies and gentlemen, Ben Pakulski. I hope you've enjoyed this interview. Thanks for watching. Subscribe to us on YouTube for more fantastic interviews just like this one. Until next time, train hard, supplement smart, and eat well.