S3:E9 - Wolf’s Den S2 E2: The Perfect Comp Prep

Please welcome to the show. All right, what do we got here? People from all over are coming to see him. Welcome to the show that punches you in the face with information. Welcome to The Wolf's Den. My name is Mark Ottobre, and joining us is Anna and Liam, who are our fantastic coaches here at Enterprise. Both have competed. I don't know, Anna's probably in the thousands now, and Liam competed a couple of times. Today's topic, We are gonna be discussing the perfect comp prep. And Anna, I don't wanna butcher your last name like I did just previously, but how do you say your name properly?

It is McManamee.

McManamee. Anna McManamee.

Close. McManamee.

McManamee. She's a top WBFF. Now I'm getting the federations wrong. WBFF competitor, pro bikini competitor. So what I wanna start with is that we're gonna be, as I said, discussing comp prep. Is there a perfect comp prep? We were speaking off camera. You believe that there is no such thing as a perfect comp prep.

If anybody knows the perfect comp prep, please tell me.

So I thought for this topic, you could kick us off with what your beliefs around why is there no perfect comp prep? 'Cause I know there's people watching this competing in all the federations who are looking for that perfect prep.

Well, there's never going to be a perfect time for anybody to prep. I mean, for anybody who has done a show, they'll know that, you know, competing isn't just you show up for training and then you go about your day. It takes over every aspect of your life. It's a 24/7 gig. Things are always going to pop up. Life is still going to happen. It's not going to pay your bills. You still need to go to work. You still need to take care of your family. Life still goes on. There's never going to be a perfect time to prep. And everybody's prep is going to look different. My prep is going to look vastly different to say Liam. Male, female, for one, different age brackets, competing in different categories. I mean, for all I know, Liam's metabolism is probably a hell of a lot higher than mine. So, I'm gonna have to diet a lot harder than he would. Everybody is different and everybody's going to respond differently. That being said as well, every prep is also going to be different. I've never had one prep the same. I usually finish in around about the same place in terms of calories, cardio, that sort of thing. But every prep has been different.

How many shows have you done?

34.

Out of those 34 shows, is there one that you kind of go, well, you know, that was close to perfect? Hmm.

Geez.

Because then also you need to define what perfection is.

Yeah. Well, I guess if you're thinking what was the easiest prep, I say easiest.

Easiest while looking at pictures.

It's never really easy. Yeah. Look, probably looking back and hindsight's a wonderful thing. I would probably say my prep going into my very first WBFF show. And I think the difference there was, it was mindset. So, I was just leaving another Federation. I'd been with that Federation for a number of years and just, it didn't really matter what I did. I just couldn't bring what they wanted for that bikini category. I had a number of friends that had gone to WBFF. I mean, so many people had been saying to me for years, come to WBFF. You know, I mean, I'm a former dancer. So, posing and stage presence, like that's where my strengths are. And that's, what WBFF awards very highly. So I thought, well, look, let's give it a crack. I also admired the physiques that they were awarding in WBFF. Naturally, I prefer to get a bit leaner. I'm a much harder bikini competitor in terms of look. I don't carry that soft look very well. I just haven't got the right body fat distribution for that. And so that was going against me a lot in the previous federation. So I thought, well, look, let's come in a little bit harder. I can put on some more size. Let's just give this a go. I didn't know how I was going to go. I actually cross-competed bikini and fitness just to see where I best sat. And then I actually won my pro card, first WBFF show.

Amazing. In saying that, do you think it's kind of synonymous that the almost the harder the prep, the— and this is a complete other topic, but the harder the prep, the better you look? Has that been what you found?

Not necessarily because I would classify my preps last year. So my prep going into Worlds, and then I tried to back it up and do the Australian Pro Show at the end of the year. So I did 3 pro shows in 1 year last year. Don't recommend it. Lots of overseas travel as well. Throw into that a massive career change, a complete overhaul in my daily routine. So I'd gone from having competed under certain life circumstances for so many years. And then all of a sudden, I was starting my day at 4:00, 5:00 in the morning. I'd come and train clients. And then I still had to do my own cardio. You know, I was stepping out on my own as well. So, I wasn't getting like that stable income coming in every week. And we had 3 overseas trips all booked. So, how was I going to finance it? And, you know, competing is not cheap either. So, I had so many other life stresses going on. Body fat just did not want to move. Like we had to grind hard to get me to stage. And honestly, by the time I got to stage in October, I woke up on show day and I was actually quite fluidy through the midsection. Wasn't such a bad thing because I was a little bit lean for that show. And that was the feedback as well, that I came in a little bit too hard. Story of my life. But yeah, it just, it wasn't my best. Throughout that whole prep, I just wanted to be done. I was like, I'm not gonna step away because I've committed to this. It was the first Australian pro show as well. So, I wanted to show my support to the Federation, but mentally, like I was done.

I suppose where I'm going with it though, is like if we start talking about and unwinding this concept of perfection for a comp prep, in that, is it really the balance of looking the best you can whilst it also being easy? And I was just wondering that. If that's actually an impossible task?

I think it's a mental thing. So like you can have a really hard prep in terms of having to go low calories, do lots of cardio, like train until your eyeballs are about to pop out. But mentally, if you're ready and you're like, no, I am doing this, then it's actually not that hard. If I look back at some of my earlier preps, so back in like 2014, and that was, That was when I was still competing in figure back then. And I would say that's probably about the leanest I've ever got. And I was scary lean, but I was also doing like crazy amounts of cardio. I'm talking like an hour and a half run 9 times a week. Like insane. I would, yeah. Mentally, I don't know if I could do that again, but crazy amounts of cardio. I was only having like, when I tallied it up and I mean, this was my own fault for not really knowing at the time I was still relatively new to the world of competing and to the world of coaching. And so I was still learning a lot myself. But when I tallied it up in MyFitnessPal later down the track, I was like, geez, I was only having about 800 calories. Like how was I still standing? I think my fats was something like 12 grams of fat. So yeah, but I did it. And like, I mean, it looked freaking awesome. But when I look back at that prep, On paper, it's like, holy crap, how did you do that? But I don't know, I just did it. It was just like, that's what I gotta do. So you just, it's that mental switch. When you're ready to go, you just go. And then the process just becomes easy, you just do it.

[Speaker] It brings to mind the first time I competed in 2004, I would have been 20 and living at home with the folks. So I could never do this prep again, but I did everything you could possibly do wrong. I don't know how many calories I was on. I was getting some really, really bad advice. Twice cardio a day plus training, getting up. I was studying design actually at the time. This was when I decided not to do design. I got down to, I think 68 kilos. And I mean, I normally walk around at like 88, 85 is, 81 is light for me, but 88, 90s is kind of where I was hovering around. So that taught me a whole lot. That was probably the worst prep for me. You know, what comes to mind was the starvation factor, not enough food. Training was incorrect, too much cardio. Just the knowledge just wasn't there. But from a personal level, that was instigator for me to actually go on and learn more. Like I had to come last in that federate. Like if I did well, that was the worst thing that could have happened to me at that stage of my life. Because I would have said, well, I already know enough. Coming last actually prompted me to be a great trainer and be a comp prep and have the answers for other people.

And that's the thing too, isn't it? Like sometimes you've just got to go through the shit to learn and to become better, whether that's a better trainer, better competitor, better in business, whatever, you need to go through the mistakes to then, for it to really hit home, I think. It's like as a kid, jumping on the bed and it doesn't matter how many times your parents tell you don't jump on the bed, you do it anyway until the day you fall off the bed and hurt yourself, then you don't jump on the bed anymore.

That's why they'll tell you.

Kind of the same thing.

So, Liam, what are your thoughts?

Yeah, I think with comp prep, I think there's a lot of people that want to do the comp prep and they don't really know their why. And like Anna said, I think you need to manage all variables, especially in the off-season. I think everyone's really keen to do this cool cutting phase where they get really, really shredded. They look good, they feel good, they're not really ready to do the off-season work. And, and what I find is a lot of people are wanting to do this competition because they they see other people do it and they think, oh, that's cool, my friend looks like this, I'm going to do that. But they're not ready to give the sacrifices. Their calories aren't in the right spot. And I think it just, it puts people out a lot more than what they actually need to be. And from a health point of view, it's not the right way. But then again, like, if Anna was competing and I'm like, or someone's like, no, Anna, you need to bring your calories back up and this, that, you can't do that show, that pro athlete or that athlete is gonna be like, well, hang on a minute, I wanna do this show. So that's where I find the problem is with the comp preps. It's not that—

You brought up a number of topics there. So topic one, if we just get onto this, 'cause I know Anna, you have some thoughts on this too, but it's almost like the prep to the prep, right? So a lot of people come in. I remember like, I remember I had a lady, she came in and she was probably about 100, 110, we're gonna say 110 kilos. And she looked at me and she said, I wanna compete in the next 12 weeks. And I said, realistically, us really talking about comp prep is probably 2, maybe even longer years away from us really looking at this as a serious goal. You need to lose the weight. Then we need to balance you out in terms of you need to be doing the lifestyle and not rebound and do that for a long time. And then and only then will I talk about actually competing with you. But I've had many people, mostly, well, mostly the comps, while I was comp prepping folks, it was mostly females. So I'd have females come in and remember I had another one who very strong-minded said, I wanna compete in 12 weeks. And I said to her, look, you could do that. I just won't train you for it because I don't recommend that you do that. If we do this, it's gonna be shoving shit uphill and you're gonna have to diet very, very hard. You have to do a lot of cardio. And quite frankly, I don't like the consequences that come later. She didn't like that answer. So she ultimately found a coach that would support that ambition. But for me, it was a matter of, no, I'm not gonna back down from this. I'm not gonna train you frankly, if you wanna prep with me, we'll do probably a 20, probably needed 24 weeks to get this girl ready. And I mean, she could have shared a lot of muscle mass on it too. She just had a lot of body fat to lose. So I think there is these day and age people looking on Instagram, oh, you know, that girl competed, oh, she's lean. And everyone has that one good photo where the light magically hit your muscles and you know, you put the right filter on or whatever it is and you look awesome. And people look at that, oh, you know, that guy's not that lean, but you know, it's easy. And I think that kind of creates more of a thing around competing. But what are your thoughts on this?

Yeah, well, I think like what Liam was saying too, going back to the why. So if we think about, okay, well, let's just say there's a perfect prep. I think it's easier to say what a perfect prep is not. Than to what it is. And I think first thing, if you're going right back from the start is, okay, why do you want to do the competition? Because if it's just to get in shape, if it's just to prove to some dickhead at the gym who called you fat, I'm telling you now, it's not the right reason to do a comp. I think that to some degree there's, well, I think most of us would agree here on this table that we all found fitness at a time where there was some form of body dissatisfaction.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think that's added a value where we had to seek and get mastery. I mean, I was the fat kid who wasn't smart enough. So I wanted to not be the fat kid. I wanted to be the ripped kid, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. He wanted to be taller.

So I think it's, we need to go back to like, why do you want to do the comp in the first place?

And if it's simply because you hate your body and you must have a set of abs or someone at the gym called you fat, then it's not the right reason to get into a show. Because I'm telling you now, when the hammer drops and you need to grind and I mean grind hard, you're going to feel like shit. And that point will come for most people. That's not going to be enough to get you through.

So Anna, how would you frame that to a client? So if I came to you right now and I'm, very low training experience, how are you gonna explain to me and frame to me the hunger pains, the time away from family, all this stuff that you have to sacrifice with doing a pretty tough competition? How would you frame it to me?

[Speaker] So, what we need to do is set up a pre-comp prep phase. It's the first thing to do. So, if you're someone who walks in off the street, you know, a fair amount of body fat to lose, not much training experience, you've never meal prepped. In fact, you don't really know what you're eating. You've never had, you know, a diet log. You don't know how to track. Then jumping straight into a comp prep is not a good place to start. You need to establish the lifestyle first. First of all, you need to show me that you can follow a plan and follow it consistently for a period of time. So then once we get you to a more optimal level of body fat, so I'm not talking stage shredded, I'm just talking healthfully lean, you're feeling good, you're moving well in the gym, you're getting stronger, you're making progress. And you just feel good. I think like other competitors would sort of understand what I'm saying here in that, like when you get to that point in the off-season where you just feel good, like you're strong, you're not 100% fixated on food 24/7. That's when you know, okay, like I'm in a good spot now. On top of that, I would also be looking at getting your bloods done. So, you not only like mentally, physically, but also hormonally. Exactly. Yeah. So you need to be in it for the long run.

Further than just what calories you're eating and what macros you're hitting, you know?

Correct.

What are your bloods actually doing? Now, one rabbit hole I did want to go down, 'cause you mentioned it, but we didn't get into it. But you said it's easy to say what a bad comp prep is or what it's not. So what is it not?

Well, first of all, getting into it for the wrong reasons. That's number one. Second of all is not finding someone who can guide you through the process. I think, you know, trying to go off what you read off the internet or just going to any old PT down the road, it's not the way to go about it. You wouldn't go to a brain surgeon for heart surgery. Competition prep is the same thing. Like I couldn't have a footballer walk in the door here and say, like, I want to turn pro football, I'd be like, okay, that's just not my specialty. So, comp prep's the same. It's an art form in itself. So, I would recommend if you're looking at doing a show, find someone who knows what they're doing, that's been in the trenches themselves, I think understands it, so they're able to empathize with the client, understand what they're going through, and be able to guide them through that process. And do so healthfully. Well, as healthy as a prep can be, because at the end of the day, it's an extreme sport. The body doesn't want to reach stage lean levels of body fat. If it did, then it'd be a hell of a lot easier and we'd all be walking around shredded, but we're not. So, I think understanding too that what you're getting into is not healthy. There will come a point in prep where you need to go beyond what is healthy and what is realistically sustainable long-term as well. And on that note, I think having a coach there that understands that, that has prepped others or has done it themselves and, you know, being able to guide you through that minefield because prep doesn't stop when you step off stage. Prep continues long after that. And I'm telling you now, the first 4 weeks post-comp in my experience in, 34 times competing, that's the hardest. It's coming out of, you know, you've been so regimented, you're freaking starving. You want to eat everything, but you don't have that deadline anymore hanging over your head. You know, there's no one that, you know, you don't need to jump up on stage in a thong and have someone judge your ass for this in the next couple of weeks. Staying on track post-comp and reestablishing your goals, that's harder, I think, than the actual prep itself.

So there's two things that I wanna highlight in what you just said. One of them was something I always talk about when I teach supplementation is that the bell curve, the bell curve of dosage and the way I refer to it is, let's say we're dosing zinc, right? Or, you know, a little bit is ineffective. It's not gonna work. Too much is gonna create toxicity of zinc. Like if you take a whole bottle a day, let's say for example, and then you have an optimal amount, which, you know, might be, let's say, 2 tablets twice a day, whatever it is, okay. And we're always searching for that optimal amount. And what you'd basically, for me, the visual analogy that comes to mind is with comp prep, there's that point where a lot of people start it because they might be overweight or self-conscious about their bodies. Then they get into that kind of optimal leanness, optimal bigness, optimal for health body composition where they can comfortably sit all year round and they're pretty healthy, but actually do a comp prep to be in competition by definition, they actually have to move the needle into the extreme. Into the unhealthy segment where they get very, very lean, which by definition has to be moved back at some point. And I do truly believe that what you, 'cause the next part of this is the 4 weeks after, people get addicted to the extreme and they think I can—

It completely warps your perception.

Stay here. And I know I've had it where I've looked at myself in the mirror. I'm like, wow, I'm so lean. Like, can I just stay like this forever? And then, you know, you eat something and you're full up with fluid and now you're back to that, probably even a little bit here.

And you look in the mirror and you're like, oh my gosh, you look terrible. And yet you're still like leaner than 99.9% of the population.

You gotta play that psychological game. And another thing I learned from John, before we go into the 4 weeks after, what your experience has been there, what I've personally found, something I learned from a mentor of mine, John Demartini, was that any part of your body that you infatuate with, you will resent. And any part of your body you resent, you're gonna infatuate with another. So basically talks about, and the 3, philosophy is, which I do 100% agree with 'cause I've experienced it personally and seen others, is that let's say for example, you've got a competitor and they infatuate with their ass and they're like, you know, my ass is the best thing since sliced bread. Look at my ass, selfie, selfie, selfie, selfie, my ass, my ass, my ass. But they probably to balance that out, that perception in their brain out, they're probably gonna resent another part of their body. So let's say in this example, it's their shoulders. They hate their shoulders. The shoulders are too narrow, they're too small. And to balance yourself out. And it's a function of the ego 'cause otherwise we start believing our own bullshit. And often if we don't do it ourselves, we'll have external forces do it for us and say, oh, you know, you're looking a bit fat today, or, you know, you're not quite as big as you used to be, or, you know, whatever it may be. And it balances our perceptions out so we don't become too high on ourselves. And I know certainly when I was competing, you know, I'd look good without my shirt on, but I put clothes on, I look small. You know, I was like, oh, I look smaller. And when I was, you know, normal off-season, it's like I put clothes on, I look big. But then when I take my clothes off, I look fat, you know? So either way, it's that balance of things. But let's get back to what you were talking about with the 4 weeks post. And I love to hear Liam's thoughts on this too. But you said that is the hardest part. Why fundamentally is the 4 weeks post the hardest part?

So anyone who has ever peaked for a show and has been like absolutely peeled dry to the bone, you know, just that crisp, pristine physique that you see on stage. Anybody who's actually achieved that would understand that anything other than that just feels huge. It feels disgusting. Yet anybody else around you would be like, I want to look like that. You know, you're still 10 times leaner than the average person walking down the street. But because I guess your perception of what is lean has changed, it's moved the goalposts. So, first of all, it's being ready to accept that you're not going to look like that post-show day. It's very important to remember that when you're peaking for a show, you are literally peaking for like that 24 hours, or in some cases, it might even 48 hours. But beyond that, the body doesn't want to stay there. Fluid levels need to balance out. You need to put on some body fat, particularly as females. We just, our bodies cannot stay that lean for extended periods of time. But then it goes back to that, your perception of what is lean has changed. So, if you've ever prepped for your first show, Probably, like I remember about 8 weeks out from my first ever show. And I was like, yeah, this is like the best I've ever looked. I feel really good. Like I'm still strong and I was loving myself sick. And then of course, you know, you've got to keep going. 'Cause we're still 8 weeks out. We're not stage lean yet. You get to stage lean. And from about, yeah, it would have been maybe been like a, a week after show. And I remember thinking like, I was dreading going to the gym. I didn't want mirrors. I would avoid the bathroom mirror. I was just hating myself left, right and center. Yet I was still leaner than what I was 8 weeks ago. But again, just coming back down to that perception changes. So, comp prep will alter how you see yourself. So, in many respects, like it. For some people, it can create body dysmorphia issues. On the flip side, it can also help you control them. And in many respects, almost heal disorders like that and things as well. I've seen that as well. I've seen it in myself. But that, those first 4 weeks post-show, it's, your body's going to go through a lot of changes. You're going to be putting fluid back on. You're going to be gaining some body fat. Just as you eat more calorie-dense foods, start bringing your calories up. And it's also too about resetting your goals. You've been so laser-focused on this one day and now it's over. People experience similar sorts of things that athletes talk about it with the Olympic Games. And there's a 4-year buildup. For a lot of comp preppers, it's like 20 weeks.

And they get hammered on the news when they get stoned after they compete. You see that anyway.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like, of course they get stoned after the Olympics. Spent 4 years in the trenches, but let's not talk about getting stoned. Let's go to Liam and talk about your experience the 4 weeks after and what you found as a coach and also what you found as an athlete.

Yeah, definitely. Like with comp prep, it's definitely a lonely road. There's, you know, I remember times when I was a couple of weeks out and I'd take my partner out, she'd get in a cybo and I'd look at it and I'd be like, whoa, that thing looks amazing. Like it was a really hot summer summer day and I was like, wow, this thing's amazing work. But then like a couple weeks later when I'm eating normally again, I'm like, it's just fruit, it's just in a side bowl, it's nothing overly special. That's where I think an experienced coach can really help you. Like for example, with myself, I've done it a few, a fair few times now that I know kind of what to expect and that cold isolated road is very tough but it can be easily Like I didn't even really think about it. Now when I get to that competition leanness, I kind of, I've already got new goals set in place.

You said it's a cold isolated road. Why do you feel it's a cold isolated road?

Like I just—

Is that for everyone or just you specifically?

Well, this is all person dependent. I don't think it's for everyone. 'Cause I've had some females that are eating heaps and heaps of calories. They've been eating a lot more than what they normally eat. In their everyday life leading into a show. So I think it's person dependent. But, um, like, I think if I look at the times that I prep, I prep over my birthday, my Christmas. I've got all those functions, dinners, and, uh, like, I can't go to them because, you know, I can't calculate my food, I can't weigh this, I can't calculate macros, all this stuff. I might miss out on training. What happens if I have a late night? Um, you know, I don't, I don't want to be around people who are drinking. I want to be focused on my goal. So that's where I think it gets quite hard for people. And I think in today's society, it's like if people say they want to do the comp preps and they want to look good and all this stuff, but they're not willing to walk, they're all talk. I find in just today's society, I think that's just the way it is.

So you said, you said, I'm gonna come back to this cold isolated road. So you identifying the cold isolated road with more so the social events that you're missing out on? Are you identifying with the food that you don't get to eat or is it something completely that we've missed?

Oh no, no. I'm like the food that I eat in my, like when I'm leading up to a show is pretty similar to what I'm eating outside of the show. Just more sources, just less, you know.

I think it comes down to a feeling thing as well. Like you're depleted, you're hungry. Just your overall mood is generally lower. Like I know when I'm in off season, I'm a lot more talkative. I'm a lot more up and about when I'm in, in like the depths of comp prep, I'm trying to conserve my energy. I don't have the energy to be as up and about, to be as talkative. What Liam said about it being isolated, it's certainly a very selfish sport. It's not like a— it's not a team sport where, you know, it's you and a bunch of other guys out on the field. It's just you. And a lot of the time, unless you've got people around you who who have been down that road themselves and can understand it. A lot of the time, people just don't really get it. They don't understand like, well, why do you have to eat your food out of Tupperware? Like, why can't you just have this? Like, surely one meal's not going to hurt. And it's like, well, it actually will. It's actually going to set me back like another 2 weeks and I don't have that under my sleeve right now. I remember my first prep. So, I was not in a fitness environment. So, I used to be a news reporter. So, I was working in news and the people around me, like they used to get Maccas for lunch pretty much every day. They didn't really train. They used to drink enough journalists. So, when I started bringing in my food in, cupware containers and heating up my fish in the microwave and stinking out the whole office. And yeah, they gave me a hard time. They used to, had a cameraman, Red, if you're watching, it would put lollies on my desk. So I'd get back and there'd be Starbursts sitting on my computer and it'd be like, yeah, thanks guys. But I was also so fixated on my goal I didn't really let it get to me. And I think that's, you know, again, it comes back down to if your why is strong enough, then you're able to see it through. What I also found after that first prep was you very quickly learn who your true friends are. Those who feel intimidated by what you're doing will try to bring you down in every way, shape, and form. They'll go, ooh, like, ooh, you're getting a bit big there. Or, ugh, why would you eat that? Or, you know, they just make these snide remarks and you're like, you know what, just, I'll show you. And then sure enough, you compete, you step off stage, you know, you've created this rock and rig. And then sure enough, they're the ones that come to you asking for professional help. But yeah, I think it's understanding why you're doing it. And then you naturally find the right people will gravitate around you. I know like a lot of people will struggle too with family and family pressures, like families who like to have big family get-togethers on weekends and things, and then all of a sudden you're showing up with your Tupperware and Auntie Betty is going, why aren't you having a second slice of apple pie or any apple pie at all? And it's having to explain yourself that way. I think that's what's really difficult for a lot of people. But that's why it's important to have the right support network around you.

Absolutely. And one of the personal experiences that I always like to share with clients is I always used to have people coming up to me at seminars and stuff like this. Why are you eating that? 'Cause we go to these like business seminars and mindset development and all be like regular folk. Why are you eating that? Why are you eating that? And then at one point I remember something in me changed where I just, stopped caring and if someone started asking me, I'd just be like, I would almost look at them blankly and you go, 'cause, and then just keep eating and I wouldn't even register. But funnily enough, when I stopped caring, people stopped coming up to me and saying, why are you eating that? And then they started coming up to me saying, I wish I could be like you. You're so disciplined.

I wish I had your discipline.

I wish I had your discipline. And it's that factor of, and like I say this for the people watching is that you do, especially the people who are new to this lifestyle, you bump up to that. Resistance of eating it and people will say, why, why, why, why? Until you start becoming comfortable with it and you almost stop caring about what other people think, like truly stop caring. And it's almost in that minute, people stop saying and stop questioning you and your beliefs of why you're doing this and they start accepting and wishing that they could actually be like you. And I found it a very interesting switch. So Anna, one question or one thought that I do wanna get back into is you spoke about how competing can be used as a tool to heal body dysmorphic issues. Now I know that that is a topic that's quite close and dear and personal to your heart because you've come from that background of having body dysmorphic issues. And you said you've used it as a tool to help you and you've also seen other people use it. So I'd love for you to talk on that.

Yeah, well, I mean, really it can go either way. So, you know, I've witnessed people come into the sport with no real sort of body dysmorphic issues at all. And unfortunately, gone back the other way. However, I've also seen it and experienced it myself work the other way in a more positive light. And I guess for me, so I was a competitive dancer and gymnast growing up, came from a very high-performing family. It was kind of the mentality of if you're not first, you're last sort of thing. So I'm that classic type A personality. So I was just, I was just a ticking time bomb really. I had all the makings for an eating disorder. And yeah, so my eating issues started from when I was about 13, 14, and then they got really serious when I was 16. And then I suffered anorexia and bulimia, kind of swung back and forth between the two for a good 7 years. At that point, stepped away from competing with gymnastics. And I was at the time pursuing a career as a journalist. So, my focus became not so much on my body as much, but more about my intellect and what I could do in front of the camera. I still had a lot of underlying body dysmorphic issues. There was still a lot of self-hate going on back in those days. And for me, It got to a stage where I was just so sick of being sick. I was sick of looking at other people just be able to just eat anything and just get on with their day. Whereas for me, it was like, it was all I thought about. All I thought about was I was counting calories and thinking about what I can and can't eat and then going, oh, if I have this, what is that going to mean? Like how many hours am I going to have to spend at the gym? Yeah, it just, I was done. And so I had recently just signed up at a gym. It was my first ever time stepping forward in a, stepping foot in a commercial gym. I'd never picked up a weight in my life. And I was about 21, 22 at that stage. And started getting into group fitness. And this one group fitness instructor, she was competing. I remember walking into the room that day And she was probably only a couple of weeks out. She was peeled. And I remember looking, just going, holy crap. Like, how does someone look that good? And what I also couldn't get over was how is she not eating nothing? How is she not doing like spending 7 hours in the gym? I'm doing all these things and I, I look and feel like crap. How do I do that? And so this was back in, would have been like 2006, 2007, roundabout that time. So like back then bodybuilding wasn't what it is today. I feel like every second person you speak to has done a show or they've got a friend who competes or something. Back then it was, I feel it was just a lot quieter. People's, it was like this own little secret community.

Yeah.

Everyone wore black t-shirts. You went to Camberwell Civic Center in Melbourne.

Yeah. With the tiny backstage.

Stage that stank like tan.

Yeah. But yeah, so it was still very much an isolated sport. Like we didn't have Instagram back then. And I'd noticed that there were a couple of other people that were also competing, other females. And again, they were training hard, they were strong. And every second I looked, they were eating. I was like, how do you do this? And so I went, right, I need to learn your secrets because what I'm doing right now clearly isn't working for anybody. I want to do what you're doing. And so I contacted one of the trainers at the gym who was prepping a lot of people for shows, Steve Bordo, hello. And he basically taught me how to eat again. Like I came to him and I think my diet diary, which I had kept religiously for like 8 years, it was nothing but asparagus, coffee, and the occasional fruit. Like that was pretty much it. So yeah.

So, I imagine it would be very exciting for you. It was unbelievably exciting.

Yeah, I was like, holy crap, I can have this? Protein?

What? What was that like? Like, what was that like?

You know, I was really constipated for the first couple of weeks, which like at the time, I was just thinking about this the other night because obviously now as a coach and you coach your clients through, if they've got digestive issues and whatnot, it's like, yeah, You need some more enzymes to support that. And, or, you know, you look at their diet and change things up. And I look back at those first couple of weeks and I pretty much just went balls to the wall, like flip 180. I went from eating sweet fuck all to, okay, I'm having 100 grams of protein at every single meal, having oats and this and that and this and that and wondering why I didn't poo for like a week. And it's like, well, clearly you don't have the enzymes to support that. Support it. It's like your body is very damaged right now. And probably jumping into 100 grams of protein at every meal wasn't such a good idea. And I remember back then I was taking like Benefiber and there was this other stuff that tasted like sand. I don't remember what it was, but I remember having to like chug it at night. And anyway, you learn the hard way. And yeah, so, and what I started to see, so, and we were only training twice a week. So, it was just 2 weight sessions. And then I was also instructing group fitness at that time as well. And just with those 2 weight sessions and following the plan that Steve had given me, and he was checking in with me every week and we're doing skinfolds and the whole bit. And I couldn't get over the changes that I was seeing in my body. The scale was going up, that was freaking me out. But at the same time, like all my clothes were getting looser, everything like I was getting capped delts and like I was, like my body was sort of chiseling away. Like the whole shape of my legs completely changed. So like all of this was, I'm not gonna lie, it was a real mindfuck to get your head around. And that was probably the first time where I felt like, okay, I've actually got control over my body and how I look after all those years of feeling so completely out of control and just, you know, jumping from one stupid starvation diet to the next and just living in a world of self-hatred.

In that process of going through that, was there a time where you like had a lot of apprehension, you're eating all this food, you're not going to the toilet, where you're like, I wanna pull the pin or was it?

No, honestly, because I was just so done and I saw the results that he was producing. And I was like, no, if I just stick at this, that'll be me one day. I mean, I was looking at some of the figure girls that he was prepping. I was like, oh no, but I don't want to do that. Next minute, like 2 years later, I'm a figure pro. So that was funny. But no, and I think it just comes back to that. It was that mental switch. I was like, well, clearly what I'm doing now isn't working. So here's a proven formula. He's got the results in front of me. Let's just do this. And yeah, and then, so, and then that was it. And then, so we were training together for about a year and a half, I think. And at that point I was like, you know what? Like, let's do a show. Let's see what we can do. And literally one week into prep, I then landed my dream job with Channel 7 and had to move to Rockhampton. So those competing dreams kind of got, shelved. And so at that point, moved away from Sydney, and boy was that a culture shock. So like, if anyone's been to Rockhampton, yeah, a lot of cows. It's slow. I haven't been there in a number of, well, a long time. I've heard it's a lot more, there's a lot more going on these days. In fact, we see a lot of competitors coming out of Rockhampton now. But back in 2010 when it was, yeah, it was a lot of cows and a big brown river.

Not much else.

Not much else. So, as soon as I moved up there, I had looked into, I was trying to find a prep coach. 'Cause it was still like, this was just something I just had to do. And there wasn't really anybody local. Back then online coaching wasn't really a thing. And so I said, you know what? I'll just, I'll wait until I—

This is 2011?

This is 2010. So, I was in Rockhampton through all the big floods of 2010, Cyclone Yasi and all of that. So, you know, work was—

You're watching Cyclone Yasi, thank you.

Yes. So, work was very much the focus. I was still trying to keep up the lifestyle, but like I'd kind of, I wasn't perfect with my eating and I'd kind of swing back and forth between, you know, being on and just being right off. So, I wasn't seeing the progress.

Did you have any relapses with eating?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And it was just purely stress, new environment. My now husband, he was just my boyfriend at the time. He was still based in Sydney. So he was still in the army. And so I was up in Rockhampton pretty much on my own the whole time. And yeah, it was pretty lonely. So weekends were kind of like, what do I do with my life? There's nothing here. I've got no friends. I've got no family. Like I had work friends, but like when you're around each other 24/7, like Monday through Friday, it's kind of, you know, you want your space. But so mentally I struggled with the transition there. And then it wasn't actually until I moved up to, so I got promoted up to the Cairns Bureau. And I knew that there was a big bodybuilding community up in Townsville, Cairns. So Jim and Rhonda Barnes had been hosting the ANB bodybuilding competition building competition up there for years. They were, you know, they'd been longtime competitors themselves. So I knew there was a bodybuilding community up there. So I was like, right, I just got to get to Townsville or Cairns and then it's on. And sure enough, as soon as I got that promotion to Cairns, before I even looked for a place to rent, I was looking for a comp prep coach. And yeah, and then—

So you competed at this stage though, right? Not yet.

No, no, no, no, not yet. No, it was just— like very on the radar. It was just something I was just busting to do. And I think too, this is like my first prep going back to like, what would have been like your most perfect prep? Like, well, that one was pretty damn good. 'Cause I had no expectations. I was just purely in it just to see what I could do. By that stage, it wasn't about, creating, you know, it wasn't about hating my body. It was about seeing what I could do. It was about committing to something 1,000% and not wavering through the whole process and seeing what, just being the best version of myself.

Is that your why?

That was my why. And it still is. Like I don't compete, there's certainly no body hate that comes into me wanting to compete. Now it's just about, well, you just keep setting higher and higher goals for yourself. So, my first season competing, I competed at the North Queensland ANB show and won the overall fitness model. So, it was first show like ever. And then went on to compete. I did another 5 shows that one season. Like we were on, we were traveling all over the place. We went like Townsville, then we had our own in Cairns. And then we went down to Queensland for the States. Then we went to, we had another one in Townsville, the INBA, or the INBA back then, there was no ICN. And then down for the nationals, the A&B Oxygen Nationals. And I placed third that year. And that was the year a good friend of mine in the industry, Laura De Benedictis won, and she landed the COVID of Oxygen. So I was like, there's the next goal. So I, stepped off stage for my first ever season. I did not have a great post-comp experience. And I think we'll get to that in a minute. We'll talk about post-comp, but just like, wasn't ready for the post-comp effects of like, yeah, you're not gonna—

This was after your first comp?

This is after my first ever prep. This is back in 2012. So, I wasn't ready for, I wasn't ready for the weight gain. I wasn't ready for just the lack of guidance, I guess. And see, back then, so my coach at the time, she didn't do off-season. It was like, you're either prepping or like, yeah, no, I'm done. So, yeah, which I can't do that as a coach. When I see my athletes through the stage, it's like, no, no, no, no, we're not done. Not yet. This is like, we're just getting started. The hardest part is yet to come. So, and I've learned that the hard way through my own experience. So, but yeah, I still kept up the routine. I was like writing my own programs.

So, different question. Why do you think you enjoyed it so much?

I've been an athlete my whole life. And I think, you know, someone who's just always been, I've always had goals and they've always been very athletic goals. So, it was always like dance, I was all in, like between school, I keep knocking that, between school and dance, that was my life. And everything was about being a better competitor. Like the goal was always like to take national titles. And so, and I thank my mum for that really, she was a high performing athlete herself. She competed in the Commonwealth Games like way back when. And yeah, so that's just kind of the mentality that we were brought up with was like, if you're going to do something, you're going to do it to be national champion, not just to like do it on a weekend and run around with your friends. So, some would argue that that's perhaps not a very healthy mentality to have, but I think it's, well, it's who I am and it's helped me get to where I am today in all facets of life, career, not just competing as well. So yeah, now it's just about just constantly setting new goals, setting the bar higher. Like there's always something more. It's not about, oh, I hate the way I look now. And oh, the only way I'm gonna get in shape is to do another show. Like, no, that's bullshit. It's about being better than I was last time. And that's the thing with, and the cool thing about bodybuilding is like, you're never done. It's bodybuilding. It's constantly bettering yourself season after season after season. And yeah, that's what keeps me coming back. And yeah, I'm not done yet.

Amazing, amazing. And WBFF Pro now. So you hold the, I suppose the torch has been passed. You've been on the COVID of Oxygen.

Yeah, yeah. That was 2014. Yeah, 'cause I, so I came back. So after my first season, after having stepped off stage, coming third and going, all right, next year I want that national title and I'm going to get an Oxygen cover. And that was the goal. And yeah, like, geez, when you put it out to the universe, like amazing things happen and just busted my ass that year, trained hard. And then when it came time to prep, I did season A and I actually did that with my husband. That was his first and only ever prep, which he'll probably kill me for even putting that out there. But yes, there are photos on the internet. And yes, we did that together cause he sort of wanted to experience it himself. And he quickly realized that yeah, nah, dieting's not for him. And yeah, and then I backed it up with season B and the goal there, so, was to win the A&B Nationals. Did that, then submitted my story to Oxygen and that's the story That's what got me the COVID Not just— winning the national title kind of put me on their radar, but it was actually going the extra steps and actually submitting my transformation story and talking about my eating disorder history and how I like learning to live the fitness lifestyle, helped me overcome that and lead a healthier life.

Getting yourself out there.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Like when nothing's ever happened to you.

Lighting other people up. Lighting people's torches.

Exactly. Yeah. And that's really what it's all about. And that's what, you know, I still endeavor to do, you know, with social media. It's all about now coaching others to become their best selves, whether that's, you know, overcoming body dysmorphic issues or, you know, wanting to step on stage or win their pro card. And it's very rewarding to now be in a position where I can give so much back. And I guess like you, I totally get that feeling. Absolutely. Because you've been through the trenches and now like, look what you've built here. It's the same thing.

Well, let's get into a different topic and shift gears into, we've spoken a fair bit about what happens after the comp. Now, one of the things that gets thrown around a lot on social media is reverse dieting. And some people say reverse dieting is kind of a nuance and it's not really a thing. And others are like, you have to reverse diet and all this kind of stuff. One of the thoughts that I wanna throw out there is that what happens when people compete is, as we've spoken before about, is you get into the bell curve where, you know, you say you're overweight, you get in optimal shape for health and body composition, then you go to that extreme and that extreme by definition is competition shape and that is a temporary, but what often comes with that is a mindset shift. And the mindset shift is to become very, very obsessive and unhealthy. Along with that becomes labelings of, foods that are normally quote unquote healthy now become, I'm not gonna touch that because that's an unhealthy food for the purposes of getting shredded or as we say, dick skin lean. So they, then we have to get, when that show finishes, we need to go from being this extreme competitor to then going back to being a healthy person who eats healthy foods that build and nourish our own body. Now I find personally a lot of people really struggle with that and they try and bring, do all kinds of calculations and macro counting and all this kind of stuff to do that. But often what it is is almost a rebelliousness in people's psyche to go, I've been strict for so long, fuck this diet, I'm just gonna eat, I can eat, the brakes have come off, so to speak, and let me just feed it. I think really what I like to do, and again, open it up to Liam to begin with, but what I like to do when competitors get off stage is have a consult with them pretty much the day after. And say, you know, it's quite normal to put on weight and you're gonna establish a new homeostasis in your brain, but you gotta bring the learnings with you from your comp prep because there are a lot of good learnings, but you gotta remember who you are when you started this and who you were when you started this is that you're a healthy person who eats healthy foods that build and nourish your body. Let's go back to that, not the extreme athlete. You don't need to view the world with the lens of the extreme athlete. And I think a lot of these perceptions around what happens after can somewhat be calmed down by just an understanding of the mentality from being an athlete who is getting ready for competition to just back into now I'm a quote unquote civilian who is just a regular gym junkie like everyone else. So Liam, I know you've had a lot of competitors. You are quite fancy with the way I see your plans go and you like to do the deficit 10%, 20%, 30% and all that kind of stuff and bring people up. But give us the rundown. What do you do? Take it any way you like, but what do you do post-comp?

Alrighty, so yeah, as you said—

If you just get closer to the mic for us too.

Yeah, as you said, I basically bring them down to their goal. Now, if I'm training a bikini girl, I know that on calipers are gonna be somewhere between 9 and 12%, maybe the sub 10, maybe between like 70 mil, 40 mil for their quads and hams and lower.

Skinfold testing.

Yes, DEXA is probably a little bit higher.

What I've personally found with DEXA is I used to get, like, I had a few clients who wanted to test how accurate my testing was, and I was usually about 3% out for females and about 2% out for males.

Yeah, yeah, pretty similar. So yeah, with post-comp, this is person dependent, but really I'm working with them from the time that I get them to way past they finish their comp. And that's because I know how hard it is personally being in that post-comp position. Now, I've done it all from post-comp binging where I was eating just whatever I wanted because I had no breaks on, like Anna was saying before. And I've also reverse dieted slowly out of them. And I think it depends on the person and, and how they are in their mental state. So for some people, yes, I have to be really slowly. And me personally, it's not my favorite way to do it. I like to get them back to baseline as quick as possible. But sometimes I have to really slow the brakes down and increase calories by 100 to 200 every couple of days, a week, and slowly work in micronutrients and all these other things to rebuild them back up at a slowly pace.

So if we were to look at that from a tangible or application side of things, so you, you counting out the macros and calories for them and telling them like, these are the foods I want you to include, or like, how are you mapping that out with folks?

I do both for some individuals, but I prefer to make sure they're not missing any food groups. So I will always give them a plan, and I'll always give them their post-comp couple of week plans with their peak week. And I'll put a big emphasis on how important post-comp actually is. So if you think about it, like, I like it.

You kind of like staple them together. It's like, here's the peak week, and on the backside, here's your post-week.

You step off stage, it's like, here's your plan for tomorrow.

And yeah, and I think, um, like, obviously for, for years now I've got this approach from Mark about being healthy. So I really, from day dot, I'm really hitting them with, this is what you do now. Um, like, one of my clients, uh, he lost a lot of weight in a short amount of time. He came in, said, I want to do this comp prep. He came in when he should have came in the off-season and didn't, and then he came back, I don't know, 20 weeks out, and I was like, oh my God, this guy has like 30 kilos he needs to um, I dieted him down pretty hard. Like, like, there were times when I'd be refeeding him and I'd be like, geez, does he really need this refeed? Should I be doing this? Is he going to get the best result? Um, but I was always educating him. And when I saw him, uh, 8 weeks later, I almost didn't recognize him. And I was like, wow, this guy's still very, very shredded. I thought he was going to gain a little bit of weight because I always gain a little bit of weight, but it was only up like 5 or 6 kilos, whereas 28 28 kilos in 16 weeks or 18 weeks. So, you know, he was doing a fair bit of cardio, but that was what he wanted to do. And I originally said no a couple of times, and it will kind of back and forth on it. And I know next time when he preps, he's going to be a lot better because he's gone to that point now where he knows actually how hard it is. And he's— and like, I got a lot of good things out of where he said, you know, I'm never going to put on that much body fat again. I'm stopping the alcohol. I'm stopping the burgers. This is what I'm doing. This is my lifestyle now. And that I think is the most important thing. Whereas some females, for example, I've just had to let go for a couple of days. I've had some that haven't really dieted super hard and they've gone off and had their food and gone out for drinks with the girls and stuff like that. And then a couple of days later, I've had to call them back in because they're upset that they've gained a little bit of weight and this and whatever.

Yeah. So, I mostly work with, well, pretty much exclusively work with female competitors. And generally speaking, I think, well, first of all, it comes down to is, well, what's the goal post-comp? Like, are we looking to back up another season? Or, so this comes back down to, you know, laying out the big picture with them. So, when I first get a client, I want to know like, okay, what shows are you doing? What are you doing currently? If they're a new competitor, competitor, but have competed before, I want to know like, what's your history been like prior to this? And so I've already got a map all planned out for them already. So, if they're a first timer and then they're looking to step away into an extended off-season and then potentially compete again down the track, then that's where we go, okay, so let's look at where we could have done better this prep. So, you know, what was the feedback from the judges? If we didn't get the placing we want and go, okay, well, why? And how are we going to implement that now into our long-term strategy moving forward? So, I'm already getting them to think about next show or their next goal. So, it kind of takes that focus away from like that one day and now it's starting to give their plan purpose. 'Cause I think if you just give someone like a training plan and a post-comp macro plan and just let them be on their way, then they're still lost. They don't know why they're going to the gym. Like if they're not someone like ourselves that have just lived this lifestyle forever, then they need something more than just showing up and training. I mean, heck, even the amount of years that I've been training now, I still need a purpose to go to the gym. But again, like it's always about setting that long-term goal. So, With my female clients, first of all, setting, okay, what's the next goal? What are we looking to do? And then it's about judging their mentality as well. So females post-comp, I feel we probably struggle a little bit more than guys only because of the social pressures that are usually put on females. Like gaining weight for females is like the worst thing ever. Whereas for guys like, yeah, you look—

Dad bod.

Yeah, bro. Whereas females, oh no, no, no, we don't want that. So, I'm a lot more conservative with my reverse diets. If I know that there's someone who might completely lose it if they're getting too much too fast, then we're going to be very conservative with how we bump up their calories. However, if it's someone who like mentally, they're just in a really good place, if their metabolism is really responsive, then yeah, the goal is always to get them to baseline as quickly as possible. That's where you're gonna start feeling good. And in many respects, you know, that urge to binge post-show is gonna be less 'cause you've already got plenty of food in your plan anyway. So, but that being said, it's gonna take your body a lot longer than just a couple of weeks of reverse dieting to actually feel normal. Like from my last prep in October, Probably took me until about April, maybe, of just kind of feeling kind of normal again. Like not always thinking about food. Well, I think it's feeling strong in the gym. It's the biggest thing for me. I find that like the mental switch is your fixation on food becomes less. When you're in a harsh calorie deficit, man, all you want to do is like, I remember I used to make food lists of like all the stuff that I was gonna eat post-comp. I'd be doing my cardio in the morning and I'd be like, yeah, I'm gonna get this, I'm gonna get this. It's really sick and twisted.

Dreaming under a bit of pressure.

But that's what like super low calories can do, right? So I think it's once you're at that point where you're not fixated on food all the time, you're feeling good, you're not hungry all the time, you're feeling strong and you just kind of living life and enjoying life. That's when you know, yeah, All right.

Have you ever had the dreams? You know the dreams I'm talking about?

Food dreams?

Yeah, you wake up and you're like, holy shit, did I just eat that whole chocolate cake? Did I do it?

Oh God.

You're like, oh shit, I'm in my bed. It's okay, I didn't ruin my prep. I actually, everything is fine. I did not eat the banana sundae. Let's go back to sleep, folks. Let's go back to sleep.

Yep, yep. Many times.

So Liam, back to what you were doing with your reverse dieting. So, in terms of the numbers, are there some numbers? 'Cause I know there's some folks who are watching who count the calorie side of things. 'Cause I know that you're right into it. What are some hard and fast kind of rules that you follow or are there hard and fast rules that you follow?

In terms of food?

In terms of reverse dieting.

Yeah, so I try and get people back to baseline as quick as possible. I automatically lower their physical activity levels. So, I drop down their steps. Remove all cardio. I try to bring in a wide range of different foods because I don't really like the idea of stopping a whole food group for a certain amount of time. And I just educate them through this and I bring down training volume a lot. And I personally believe that once you've done a show, it can take a day, a week, a month, eventually you're gonna be all right. Are you gonna come back up into feeling strong, lifting heavy.

[Speaker] Being okay with what you see in the mirror.

[Speaker] Being okay with what you see in the mirror. And it's more so, I do find it more so with females a little bit more challenging, more so because of the look and the social pressures that are put on them. But my job as a coach is to not to get someone the best result. It's to keep them getting them their best result while keeping them healthy. And that's where like people don't really get it still and they're kind of just, they want a result.

On the topic of the perfect prep, is there a client that comes to mind or yourself where you go, yeah, you know, that was pretty close to perfect?

Well, if I look at my two preps, right? And like I prep for 40 weeks because I wanna build my calories up. I don't wanna be rushing anything. I wanna look at myself and like, almost like symmetry and go, okay, what's, what's on, what do I need to work on? Okay, my arms, my back, my chest, my legs are okay. Here's what I'm going to do over the next 40 weeks. 20 weeks of this is going to be a really serious kind of gaining phase, and then I'm going to leave myself 20 weeks to cut down to get to, you know, 5% or whatever I need to be at. Now that's to say I'm at around I stay between 15 and maybe 20. I'm probably closer to about 16 at the moment.

Body fat?

Yeah, percent body fat. Now if I'm 25% body fat, ideally to do that safely, that can take anywhere from 24 to 50-odd weeks to diet someone down. And I think people try to put this into 10-week blocks and that's where I think it goes quite wrong for people.

A lot of people throw out the term 12-week transformation and then —try and apply it to, you know, you look at some of our transformations that we've done, they're not 12 weeks, you know, they're multiple weeks or sometimes years where you really get that hereditary results. Have we had 12-week hits? Yes, you do every now and then get a 12-week hit.

They're anomalies, they're not the norm.

Usually, I mean, I have a 12-week hit that I always refer to, and that was Karim El-Bash, who's on our wall. He came to see me for the WBFF fitness model and he did very well, but the guy had already competed twice. And we turned that around in 12 weeks, very, very fast. And he had a photo, but he was just, he's a guy who's a super responder. I mean, he would think about lifting weights.

And he was already a very well-trained individual. Very well. He was living the lifestyle.

He was coming to me to step it up to another degree. And I mean, there you have those guys. For me, another one, I mean, I wouldn't say his prep was perfect, but his prep was close to perfect. We did get a roadblock where he was at 7% body fat for 3 weeks in a row. And it was a matter of actually increasing his fats and keeping his carbs high. So actually we had to bump up his calories and bump up his food to get him to drop below 7%. And he got to 5% and the guy was on, he was shredded. He was very much in immaculate condition. And I think, you know, he really did cruise. To me, it seemed like he cruised. And I think you would say much the same. He cruised into the show. The other one that comes to mind is a female who I trained, calisthenics backgrounds, very, very, just show her a movement, next minute she's doing it perfectly. She was a trainer herself. 16-week prep, the way I planned it was 4 weeks of it was gonna be essentially getting her to hypertrophy as much as possible. It's actually about 8 weeks of hypertrophy and then 8 weeks of cutting. 'Cause she wasn't, I think she started at maybe like 16% body fat, but you know, she was on, came in, won the Victorian titles, competed at the Australians. Nailed it. And I remember the story that always comes to mind when I think of her was on the day when she walked into the prep, I was at the ICN, INBA, ICN at the time, I think it was, INBA, whichever. I walked in and I can't remember who was sitting there but said to her, you look happy. You look really healthy. She was, yeah, I'm great. I'm fine. I've been having wine once a week for the whole prep. Like I think she actually, no, we cut it out 2 weeks before and she was just like all bubbly. And it was in this contrast, she had a huge smile on her face, looked healthy, looked strong, looked the way you wanna look and shredded. And in the huge contrast, there was so many girls around her going, I hate life. Where's my pizza?

How would you describe her mindset throughout the prep? Like, how was it? She had breakdowns.

She had breakdowns, so she cried, which I would say is fairly normal when, in my experience of training any competitor.

I think I've broken down pretty much every prep at some point.

Yeah, like, 'cause you get pushed to the point. So she had a meltdown and she cried and that was all fine. And then she moved straight on and got on with it. But her mentality towards it was she came at it and I don't know if it was a calisthenics background. She was a PT at the time. So I was mentoring her as well. But for her, I think really it was just, she approached it as an experience. And one of the different things with her was a lot of people that I find once they get off stage, the first question they get asked is when are you competing again? For her, she did the season. So she did the VIXX and she competed at the Aussies. But her answer was, I'm not gonna do this again. I only have to do this once. So I think from that perspective was she came in with this element of this is not who I am, but I'm gonna give this everything I've got. I'm an athlete first and a competitor second, and I'm gonna have some fun. And I think that's how, to me, that's how she approached it as almost a, I'm experimenting with my body as a physical culturist rather than this is the box.

And I think that's probably the key. Like if we're looking for the answer for what is the perfect comp prep, I think it's how you go into it and it's what you want to get from it. No one's forcing you to do it. No one's holding a gun to your head. If you are just genuinely excited by the process and excited by seeing the limits that you can push yourself to, then yeah, I think you're in for a pretty cruise. I'm not gonna say cruising, 'cause preps are never cruising.

You still gotta push into that limit. It's always hard.

Yeah, but I think when you've made that mental switch, the process becomes easier.

Yeah, patience is definitely a big thing. I think you can maybe gain 100 grams, 200 grams a month of maybe muscle mass if you're lucky. I mean, you could probably potentially drop maybe a kilo a week if you've got a lot of body fat. This is a long time. Like if I look at Anna's years and years transformations, they're quite good, but people don't wanna have that timeframe now. And even with myself, if I look at my preps, so in the lead up to the first Arnold Classic, I didn't really know what to expect dieting as hard as I did for this first time. I came in very, very lean. You know, I was very lean. I came third on that day. If I have— and everything went wrong, could have gone wrong that prep. Like, there were people on the treadmills when I needed to go on them, and this, that, and whatever else. The second time I prepped, it was much easier, um, and I put on 5 kilos. And I was comparing it to last year's Arnold's, and I was like, I'm gonna do really well here. This is— I'm gonna really do really well here. Um, I was looking at all the guys from last year's Arnold's, and I was going, yeah, this is cool, I'm going to do really well here. Then I get to the day of the qualifier in Vic and I walk in and I just see these, all these massive guys and I'm just like, holy hell, who are these guys? And I'm 73 kilos, I just scraped under 70. And I'm going, are these guys doing the under 80s? Like, where are the other under 70s? Am I doing it by myself? Anyway, there's like 6 guys that are just huge. And like, I remember getting off stage and I saw this guy called Scott Gobourne, he was like, that was the best under 70s lineup I've ever seen and you held very well. And I was just thinking like, yeah, you're right, I did, I did do quite well, but I was, I potentially could have done better because I had put on 5 kilos and at this amount of time I was—

But you can't control who shows up.

And I was like, what is going on?

And that's the thing with bodybuilding or any subjective sport. I think if you're solely fixated on the result, You've missed the point. Yeah, totally. And you're going to be very bitterly disappointed most of the time.

Like the best answer to that was 2005. I said to Tony, it was my second show, Tony Doherty. I said to Tony, 'cause he was helping me prep for the show. Do you think I can win? And he looked at me and laughed and said, well, you show me the competition and I'll tell you if you win. There's no way, you know, let's say the guy who beats you, they've been training 10 years, you've been training 2. Or let's say the guy that beats you has some super genetics and parents, what are you gonna do? Hate your parents? And I thought his answer was just so on point. So exact. That is actually how you have to approach it. You have to, the only person who you can beat is you really at the end of the day.

It's you versus you. And if you're solely focused on that end result on the day, I mean, heck, you could have one judging panel that'll see it one way. You could have a completely different panel and the results could be completely different. It's all dependent on who shows up on the day and what the judges are looking for on the day. And in some categories, you know, that can vary wildly. Like bikini is probably one of the toughest ones to prep for. One day they'll favor a leaner physique. Another day they'll go completely different.

And I've seen it so many times. And in different, like in weeks, like we had one at the Vicks and then at the Aussies, there's different judges.

And you're like, whoa, what the Vicks last week— focusing on, you're going to hate the sport very, very quickly. But if you can approach it with the mentality of, I just want to give this my all and leave no stone unturned. So, when I look back on my prep, I don't say, yeah, I probably could have done better. Cause if you come out and you've done everything that you can, if you've busted your ass day in, day out, left no room for regrets and then walk out on stage looking the best you have, like that's a win for me. And anything on top of that, sure. Like I'm a competitive person. We all want to win, but I'm not going to walk away from the sport if I don't win. And let's say I've lost more than I've won.

So folks, we're just about to head into a break, but before we do, Anna, where can people find you on Instagram?

Look me up, Anna, Anna_McManame.

M-E-Y, or IamAnnaFitness. And Liam, where can people hit you up?

Liam Fitz on Instagram.

And is that with an underscore? Underscore. And obviously I am Mark Ottobre and you can hit me up at Mark Ottobre on Instagram and obviously do follow Enterprise Fitness on Instagram and hit that subscribe button. We'll see you after this break. Are you a personal trainer looking to maximize their career and profits? Check out the folks at personaltrainermentoring.com who have sponsored this show. They have put together a website full of resources. You can download one of them today. It's a $500 value pack, completely free as a watcher of the Wolf's Den. It includes 3 eBooks and an e-course on how to screen and assess your clients. So check them out. We also have some fantastic certification programs. The one they have just released is Sales Mastery for Personal Trainers. So head over to personaltrainermentoring.com and get your free gift pack today. Hey folks, are you looking to get in the best shape of your life? Here at Enterprise Fitness, we've trained over 250 first place trophies and winners, as well as literally thousands of people to get in the best shape of their lives. So check us out. It's melbournepersonaltrainers.com. We're located at 381 Swan Street, in Richmond, if you're looking to get in the best shape of your life, you need help with your training, training programming, nutrition, just want to feel your very best, reach out, contact us, www.melbournepersonaltrainers.com. And we are back. Welcome back to the Wolf's Den. We are going to get straight into it. So what we're going to do now is answer your questions from Instagram. The first question from Instagram is, can anyone compete naturally? And I mean only diet and workout. And if yes, how much time will it take? So I assume this question is about drugs. So let's just get to the point. Or supplements. Or supplements. But I'm gonna imagine this question is about drugs. So I'm just gonna answer it about drugs, right? So 100%, I've been natural my whole life. There are natural federations and untested federations as it's referred to. Untested federations are basically just that where the federation is untested. So for example, if you are taking performance enhancing substances of any sort, they're simply not gonna test. And that's where you go if you want to take stuff, right? On the other hand, there are federations that are tested and people will argue, well, you know, those federations don't have the money to test every athlete. Now, while this might be true, I think it's up to us as individuals and as people and, you know, watching this and all this kind of stuff is, I think your own individual moral compass would tell you that if you are going to use drugs, then don't go in those tested federations. They are for the natural people. So if you look at, say for example, the ICN as an example, that is a tested federation. So if you do intend to be a natural competitor, then compete naturally. If you do intend to use performance enhancing substances, go to the federations that don't test. And do your research. Yeah, and do your research. Do your research. Yeah, 100%. So don't go back from that. Yeah. And how— Particularly as females. Particularly as females. And unfortunately there is a, drug culture in this, and that has to be, I suppose, acknowledged at some point. And the other aspect I just wanted to add on that is you can have a, it depends on what level you wanna be, right? If you wanna be walking around at 4% body fat and 100, 105 kilos, well, it's probably not a result you're gonna achieve naturally, right? Let's just say you're about 6 foot tall. You know, it's quite a lot of muscle at a very low body fat percentage to be walking around. That's not a natural. But I do believe, you know, if you do take the natural route and it really is horses for courses, right? I mean, that's the route I've chosen personally for myself. And that's what feels right for me, but I'm not gonna condemn anyone if they choose to go on a, say, performance enhancement protocol, that's their choice and that's the physique and that's where they wanna go. So yeah, how long will it take? Well, I think it really takes the same amount of time, whether you're, I mean, obviously if you're using substances, the result's probably gonna be a lot more extreme on the physique. Flip side, if you are natural, it might be a bit harder. You gotta be a lot smarter with your food. You're not gonna get away with as much. You've gotta really dot your I's, cross your T's. But along the way, I mean, obviously with the, if you are using substances, there's a whole other kettle of fish that's quite hard.

And I don't think it, I think there's a big misconception that it just, it makes it easier. Well, no, it doesn't. What you're adding is a— Exactly, you're still gonna do the work. What it allows you do is work harder. So, yeah, like if you want to go down that route and again, like you, I've got nothing against people who do, but particularly as females, you need, like, this is serious and you need to think long-term. Like, you know, if you want to have kids down the track, then well, maybe going down that route isn't such a good idea. So, you've just got to assess your values. And decide whether that's something that you want to go down that path. 'Cause there's no real going back from that, but it won't make it easier. And what you also need to consider is that, well, if you're competing in an untested Federation, the bar is that much higher as well. I mean, I compete in an untested Federation, and that is not to say that every athlete on stage is on performing enhancing drugs. Definitely not the case. Absolutely not. But it does raise the bar. So, it's not taking the easy route. And there's a whole other layer of complexity that's going to come along with it and ramifications down the track, if not managed properly. Absolutely. Do your research.

And one of the case in points in athletes that I've coached for, you know, over a decade, I've coached her for over a decade now. Liam coaches her, Janet Kane, lifetime natural. She competes in untested federations and she would win. And, you know, the point is like wipe the floor. And the reason is, you know, in, in the, in the natural feds, uh, she, she won everything and there really wasn't anywhere else that she could kind of take her career. And, and we, we spoke and we said, well, we know, you know, that you're natural, you're going to stay natural, but it doesn't exclude you from competing against people at a higher level and who are bringing it even that much harder. Like, you can go up against them and beat them. And, and that's exactly what—

and that all comes down to her, to her work ethic. It just goes to show, like, if If you, like Janet is probably one of the hardest working athletes that I've ever witnessed. Like she comes in here and she just goes like an animal. Like she's, yeah. And not everybody can do that. So, I mean, that's just testament to Janet's relentless hard work and dedication to her craft that she can then step on stage against enhanced athletes and be able to wipe the floor like she does. Not everyone can do that.

No, not at all. Janet's special. Meticulous to details, diet, training, food timing, all the others. So I think we've answered that question. So I'm gonna move on to my next question. I know Liam, you had one as well. The next question is from Natasha. So Natasha asks, how long should comp prep be for someone who is doing it for the first time? I'll let Liam take a swab at this one first.

Could you repeat the question?

I just put my phone away. How long should a comp prep be for someone doing it for the first time? How long should a comp prep be for someone who is doing it for the first time?

Yeah, that was pretty much the same as my question as well. I think this depends on what category they wanna go to, what their current look is. And I like to, if I can, I'd like to spend a minimum of 40 weeks. I know this is not ideal for everyone because I would like to figure out what foods work for them, build a little bit of muscle first, and then I would like to start the diet process. What I, what I don't like doing is getting someone in 20, 15 weeks, 12 weeks, whatever, and not knowing their body that well, not knowing what foods they like, not knowing where they've been with their food for the past 3 years. I think the more I get to know the people who do longer preps, the better I do with them. Just because we learn more about their body than what they've probably learned in the last, being their whole person.

Yeah, I'm the same. Like if I have somebody that comes to me and says, all right, I wanna do a show in 12 weeks. It's like, oh no, no, no, no. Then like if it's that 12-week show, then I'm not the coach for you. 'Cause I like to spend time with my athletes to like you Liam, get to know them, find out like what foods work best for them, like how they're training, like take that time to build a foundation. The exception would be if, you know, someone came to me, they've competed so many times before, they're like 10% body fat, they've been tracking their food religiously for weeks on end and they are ready to go. Yeah, okay. Then I think they're in a good place to like 12 weeks. Boom, let's go. But for most people, that's just not the case. Most people who come to do a prep, particularly first timers, are generally first timers to the gym too. And I'm not just saying like go in and do a Body Pump class and walk out. I mean proper serious resistance training. And even like, I know for myself, even as an athlete, even though I was, you know, playing around the gym for a while before I got serious in my prep, I wasn't training hard enough. I'm still perfecting my movement patterns. So like, if that's coming from me with so many years experience, then chances are most people walking through that door, they're not going to be in a position to step on stage in 12 weeks. And that's where I'd be taking the same approach. Let's think long-term, let's map out your prep to give you the best result. 'Cause I don't want to just put people on stage just to, you know, say, oh, I prepped another person. No, I want you to step on stage and I want you to win. I want you to get the best result possible. I also want you to enjoy the process as much as possible. And you're not going to get that if you've got, you know, like 20 kilos to lose in 12 weeks, you're going to hate life by the end of it. And you're not going to look very good. So definitely time is of the essence. I think, and the longer you can spend preparing yourself for that, the better the result is going to be at the end. So patience.

Yeah, I think someone like Natasha, she would be good. She'd get away with 20 weeks, I think.

Yes.

I think she's got quite a bit of muscle mass. She moves very well. She's already pretty strong. I think 20 weeks should be very, very competitive.

So for the personal question that's been asked, we'll give a personal answer. 'cause we know the person asking it. So let's move into one of my favorite segments of the Wolf's Den, and that is the one word game. I hope you both are prepared for your one word. We'll do a couple of rounds here. I'm gonna kick things off. So basically, if this is the first time watching it, we both, we say a word and we answer it the first thing that pops in the head. And often this game turns into the one sentence game and sometimes the one paragraph game. Maybe the one rant game, but we'll try and keep it to one word. So let's kick it off. And the word that I want to associate today is bikinis. Hard to judge. Glutes.

Figure.

Janet Kane. Nicole Wilkins. Oh, my turn. Oh, this is how it works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Training.

You have to train hard to get a result.

That's many words.

That's many words. Hard, hard. Hypertrophy in different rep ranges. Oh, it's back to me.

Favorite comp food.

Chicken. Hmm, mine is very limited right now. So I could say chicken, but Can't say salt. Damn it! Seasoning. Mustard. No, mustard. Truffle mustard. Truffle mustard.

Yeah, Liam. Um, pee quick.

Peeing all the time.

Uh, it can be complicated. Uh, yeah, can be complicated.

And I'm gonna add Fun. Love Pequod. Back to you. Back to me. Tan.

I'm gonna say Pro Tan, because you remember the tan backstage we used to actually rub on.

This is a Pro Tan?

Oh, it's not, no, no, I'm talking about Dream Tan, sorry. Oh, Dream Tan. Dream Tan, that's my answer.

I think that's banned at most shows now.

Yeah, yeah, it is.

Oh, do I ever.

Dream Tan came in like a little round container container, like hair gels.

And you pat it on. Did you ever go backstage and all you heard was—

Yeah, those were the days when I competed.

That was the dream tan. Yeah, it was dream tan.

And then there was shimmer as well, which made you look a bit more like bright and yeah, it was intense. Yeah, it's all about, all about pro tan these days.

It's all spray tan now anyway. But yeah.

What's your one word?

Arnold Classic.

No, no, tan. You have to say tan. We'll get to the Arnold Classic.

I just think it's messy. I hate it. It's just messy. I just hate it.

Patchy disaster. I remember I used to compete.

I had to do like contest color and then on top of contest color, you had to put the dream tan on top of that. It was horrible. It was the worst process. Yep.

3 layers of tan.

So Arnold Classic, there's only one word, one name that comes to mind when I think of Arnold Classic and that's Tony Doherty, legend.

And second name that comes to mind of course is Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Yes. Favorite competition or comp supplement?

Sulforaphane. Sulforaphane.

Hmm. Some Zyno estrogen detoxification.

Yes. I'm gonna say for me, berberine. All right. Hmm, I like my GDAs. Yes.

Yes. Blood sugar control, anti-aging.

You don't have any carbs now. No, I don't. But I still like it. We are—

I said my word. We are back to— Back to me.

Post-comp cheat meal.

I have to say what I did. So it would be like TGI Fridays burger and potato skins.

I still keep it clean. I go to Santoni's, get a gluten-free pizza.

Clean. We are back to you.

We are, yes. Favorite muscle group?

I'm gonna say delts, but as a bikini competitor, I should say glutes.

Can I say posterior chain? Yes, you can. Yeah, posterior chain. That's my answer. Posterior chain. We're at a bar, what are we drinking?

Pepsi Max. Oh God, it's an addiction.

Depends where we are, depends where we are, where are we prepping. In prep we're drinking waters and we're not very happy. Out of prep we're probably drinking gin.

Gin, okay. Oh, you want me to say what I'm drinking? What do you drink? Cocktails. 'Cause alcohol tastes like shit.

Back to Liam, one word. Favorite hardest prep for a client.

For a client? Yeah.

Hang on, can you quantify that question? What do you mean the client who was the hardest prep? Yeah, like— Or what is the hardest prep?

Everything went wrong, peak week mucked up, the car broke down on the way to the show.

Oh, like disaster story? Yeah. Oh, okay. Do I have a disaster story?

Yeah, I haven't had a disaster story. Like I've got, I had ones that have been harder than others. I don't know whether I should say names though.

My disaster story was me. Like in my first prep in 2004, that was me. I don't have a disaster story of a competitor, thankfully. Like it's always—

'Cause you did it all for them.

Made sure, like I printed out the checklist, gave it to them, made sure they had everything. Getting on time, but my disaster story was me, 2004. Like you couldn't get more of a disaster. I came last, dead last. And I looked, I was that guy that you would look at and go, yeah, that guy's not ready. He shouldn't have been on stage. He was a bit skinny. Yeah, a bit skinny. Yeah, your one. I haven't came last, thank God. Sorry. Yeah, well I have.

Your one, Luke? Hmm. Barbells.

A Laker.

The big lifts are essential.

All right, we'll go, we'll go one more round, so we better make this a good one.

Um, pressure's on. My God, I've got so much pressure right now.

Um, there's Jeopardy music just in case.

Beads of sweat starting to—

stop it. The, the leanest person you've ever coached?

I'm going to say Janet Kane.

Oh, it's a tough one. It's a very tough call.

Well, Janet— I mean, Krim was lean, but it's pretty lean. Krim was very lean. But I feel like if I had to give it on male to female pound-for-pound athlete, I, I would give the, the best all-round competitor that I've ever coached to Janet Kane. I mean, she's one of the most decorated figure competitors in Australia. So I think it's well deserving and tough to beat on that too.

So yeah, Janet. Leanest. So I work with mostly fitness and bikini competitors. So I try not to get them too lean. My leanest bikini competitor was probably a young lady called Jemima. Jem, if you're watching, you did a great job in your prep. Yeah. And she got, actually she had a, she was just one of those people that just had an easy prep. Like I'd send out her plans and just be like, yeah, you're like a bitch.

I've had those as well.

What I would give to be on your macros. Yeah. No, she did really well. Yeah. And she competed in the rookie class. Rookie Show a couple of years ago and yeah, podiumed for all of her categories. And she's got top 3 for a little while.

I don't know if that's coming through, but we're getting some whistles on the way as people walk through Enterprise. They're liking what we do. Hello. Thanks to the folks at home watching. They're whistling at you, Mark. They are indeed. Hey, I'll see you guys later. My last round, my one word is if you, if what is, if no, let me start that again. What is your spirit food? My spirit food, just FYI, is cacao. I'm just wondering.

Well, I'm Italian, so I'm gonna say pizza.

Hmm. Spirit food, spirit food. Grilled burgers.

Grilled burgers. Has to be. I thought you might say something like that. Yeah. And to close it off, what's the one word for you? What's the last one? Hmm.

Um, last one as we finish it.

Tick tock. He wants to get you back now, hey?

Um, best, uh, like most memorable moment on stage.

Oh, oh, okay, I'll let you go first.

It would probably be this girl that I coached that, uh, was— had a lot of trouble. She was quite overweight, uh, suffered a lot of anxiety, things like that. Ended up cleaning up for a year straight, won every show, um, when really no one thought she could do that.

My probably most memorable was, uh, I have two that come to mind immediately, and the first one is a lady by the name I coached she was a trainer here for a little while. Her name was Nicole. And just mentally, she had a little bit of a tough prep. And I saw her being a champion. And it was a few moments where she had her breakdowns and that. And then she got up and she won. And it was like, thank fuck. Like, I just felt like she needed it. I needed it. But I think we as a team, we really needed her to win. And because we just saw all this pain potential in her and she won. So that was really quite a great moment. And then at the end of it, the whole team got up on stage, we got a photo. It was just great. It was a great moment. And the other one was actually a girl, 2014 at the Vicks. Took her on from another coach. I had about 6 months. She looked skinny and emaciated at a previous comp. I took her on, I had 6 months to turn her around and I did. She walked in and just, she won. 2014, the winner at the Vicks, standout winner, amazing. There's this other girl who was quite big, but she was too big. She had too much muscle. Like she looked bodybuilding. And the thing about that comp is we actually had Enterprise. We had first, second, and third in the lineup. So that for me was a very special lineup because I think two of our other coaches had girls who won. And then I had the winner. And just in terms of the physique that she presented in my head, it's exactly what I saw. I've never been probably, With the exclusion of Janet, 'cause Janet's kind of been coaching her for 10 years and a lot of the victories, like it's almost like now, I don't wanna say expect Janet to win, but it kind of is that element where like, all right, we're going into this to win. We have that mentality. So outside of that, that was a very special one because I worked with someone who came from like bare beginnings to then just boom and turn it around. So that would probably be for me. What about you?

Well, it'd be a couple. So for me personally, in my competition experience, definitely winning my WBFF Pro Card was a big one and winning the Nationals in 2013, which was my— that was that big goal that I set from that first prep. So that was a big moment. And then with my clients, So I've had two. One of them, I wasn't physically able to be there. I was actually in the States at the time. So I was like madly messaging like on Facebook and everything, trying to stay on top of what was going on and checking in on her condition. And that was my client, Chrissy Warren, who absolutely cleaned up last year and ended up earning herself two pro cards. So, and yeah, she just had the most amazing transformation herself. Like, was one of those people that came to me just wanting to get in shape. And then one thing led to another. And then she was like, oh, you know, I think I might want to give this competing thing a go. I'm like, yeah, I reckon you'd actually be pretty good. Yeah. And she was. So that was huge. And then my other one was another girl who ended up taking overalls at the Vicks in the fitness category as well. And like for her mentally really struggled towards the end of prep. Like her, she was going through a marriage breakdown at the time. And it was like, oh, okay. Like we're so close. Like you're ready. Just, we've just got to hold it together. Literally 2 weeks out from show had the most horrendous weekend long binge and then checks in with me on Monday morning and is like, yeah, fucked up. And we're like, you know what? We're gonna clean this up and we're gonna get you on stage. And we did and she fricking won. So yeah, that was—

It's always those ones, those stories of like nuance or stick out in your head. That's awesome. So finally, Liam, sir, where can people connect with you? Liam_Fitz on Instagram.

And Anna? I'm also on Instagram. That's Anna, A-N-N-A_McManamy, M-C-M-A-N-A-M-Y. M-E-Y, or my business page, which is Iamannafitness, or one word.

You are watching The Wolf's Den. My name is Mark Ottobre. Connect with me on Instagram @markottobre. Make sure you follow the Enterprise page. And if you haven't already, folks, hit subscribe. And we would be forever so grateful that you leave us a review on iTunes and podcasts. And hey, look, if you've enjoyed this episode, do share it with your friends on all things social media, Instagram, Facebook, all that good stuff. Stuff. Thanks for watching, folks, and until next time, train hard, eat well, and supplement smart.