S4:E6 - Why Nutrition Matters - Breaking Diet Dogma | The Wolf’s Den

Welcome to the show that punches you in the face with information. Welcome to the Wolf's Den. My name is Mark Ottobre, and today my guest who's joining me is Enterprise Master Coach Marshall Tan. Today we're gonna be getting into the world of nutrition from university degrees, if it fits your macros, all the way to intuitive eating. It's gonna be some fun. Marshall, welcome to the show. Welcome to the den. and welcome back to Australia, my friend.

Thank you very much. It's been quite some time, I believe 4 years since I actually came back to Enterprise Fitness.

Yes, so those who don't know the backstory, Marshall and I met, you wanted to compete.

Yes.

And you were 20, 20 years old?

I think 20, yeah. So basically we've known each other for 8 years right now.

8 years?

Yes.

So it was 2010, 2010? No, it was 2011.

We're in 2020 right now.

I met you 20, 2012? Yes, 2012. Yes, 8 years. I thought I was earlier. So you competed, you were doing your university degree at the time, then you came to work at Enterprise. I remember our very first internship that we ran here. Oh, you looked at me and you said— we had trainers from all over Australia— you looked at me and you said, how come these are all trainers? I said, yes, Marshall. And you said, how come none of them know what they're doing? I'm like, Marshall, this is the industry, right? Like, we, we got to get the word out. And, you know, so many years later You became a master coach here, you then went to Dubai, you went all around Dubai, you've had some interesting experiences even working with royalty.

Yes, I did.

And now you've made your way back to Melbourne thanks to the COVID Yes, the COVID Corona, as they call it in the— So what are some lessons that you've taken from Dubai?

Well, I guess it's the same thing where people in the fitness industry needs a bit more humility and basically stay in their own lane and actually keep learning skills there. After you qualify as as a personal trainer, sorry, you're still not qualified. You have to learn more. And things you do not know everything. And that goes with the quote there, you know, the more you know, the more you know you don't know much.

Yes.

Just to paraphrase it there.

Yes.

Yeah. So that would be one thing there. And many other, you know, life lessons there in terms of self-reflection.

You saw that in Dubai as well as you saw that here. There's a lot of, say, arrogance in the industry, hubris in the industry where people think they know a lot more. I mean, we saw it a lot, you know, with, with biosignature. A lot of people would do a biosignature course, think they understand everything about— there is about hormones, and you're kind of trying to treat hormonal problems based off a biosignature and not looking at blood work or the Dutch test or anything like that, and really looking at the full picture, which is, you know, obviously very, very bad. You know, you need to make sure you have good analytic data or nominal data that you can compare against and understand what you're doing. So you saw that in Dubai as well as here, but I'm guessing you saw it in other ways with like therapies and stuff.

Yeah, I guess in Dubai it was actually worse off. Yeah, there are just a lot of people who are, let's say, Instagram influencers and just, you know, have good bodies, popular, good booty, just whatever like that. And basically, and say, it'll basically say, you know, I'm a trainer because I look really good. And people just go to them because of Instagram following and have no qualifications in any manner. So basically you'd say, see a client or a trainer teaching a client how to squat there and they're not even squatting properly. Not even halfway, like quarter squats. And the thing is they think that's normal and they put it on their Instagram saying, look at me training my client doing a squat. I'm thinking—

That's not a squat, bro.

Wow, the audacity that you're making personal training horrible.

Well, I mean, isn't that the case, right? Like people always look at the guy or the girl with, you know, the abs or the ass or whatever it is. Where really I think, you know, what the measure of a coach is in their clients. And one thing that I preach so much to all our trainers, hear all trainers in the industry is you are a reflection of your clients. And I know for me, the way I built my business was, and my credibility as a trainer was, it didn't matter if it was Peggy Sue, never been into gym before, or if it was a Janet Kane who's won 4 Australian titles. I would train them to basically be like what I thought was the image of perfect training, like, you know, my business card. So they would go in and they would get their, you know, squat rack, whatever they were doing, and people would go up to my clients, you know, the Mary who's never been to the gym before. Are you a personal trainer? And she was like, no, I'm an accountant. And it would be kind of comical. And they'd be like, wow, you know how to squat, you know how to move. Who trains you? And she'd be like, this guy named Mark. And that's one of the ways I got a lot of clients was simply that my clients were going into public gyms and other people were seeing, wow, you train differently to everyone else. But more importantly to that, I think it's the depth of results that you're able to achieve. A lot of people are able to look good themselves and can figure out enough of what works for them, but they can't figure out what works for everyone individually. And that's the thing I know in my career and your career and what good coaches— the telltale of good coaches is they have so many different clients from all different walks of life and they're able to speak to that. That's the magic of coaching, not just simply having some ass and tits because that's very fleeting.

Yes, exactly.

And the other thing with like beauty, for example, beauty only lasts for so long, right? So you've got to have substance, you know, knowledge, substance and wisdom and actually be able to produce. And I think it is, I mean, it is the fitness market, right? People are attracted to what looks good because they want to look better, but they don't always realize that just by chasing that, you know, shiny flashy object or that piece of ass or that abs or whatever, those bigger biceps, they don't necessarily have any of the answers for you. They don't understand the biology, the physiology, or even the coaching motivational aspects. And it's also something to be said from a coach that is genetically, I suppose, behind the eight ball because they have to work that much harder to figure out all these things for themselves. And I know I had that. You had that. We had bad experiences, right? And we really had to figure out like every step. It wasn't easy for us. And if we will say genetically blessed, like I know in my very first bodybuilding comp, I came last, right? It was very hard for me. And I was the fat kid at school, all these kind of things. I had to work hard. And because of that behind the eight ball experience, it made me a much better coach. Because I had to figure it out. I had to figure it out for myself. And then I, once figuring out for myself, if I'm my hardest client, then actually everyone else isn't so hard. What have you found?

Oh, well, exactly the same thing there. As in our own challenges, especially in the fitness industry there, when we're able to overcome it for ourselves there, let's say you're not having the best genetics, not having the best knowledge or whatever like that. And when we do overcome that, we're able to actually reproduce that with other clients itself there. And that was the magical point there, because we're so frustrated and we want to keep growing, want to be better for ourselves and for our clients there. So essentially, we held ourselves to a better standard, as in, all right, cool, we know there's a lot of knowledge that we don't know, hence we kept learning and we didn't stop learning.

Let's get into that, right? Like the Marshall story, you know, you were the typical, from what I understand, right, to paraphrase your story and kind of cut to the chase, You were the typical Chinese kid, right? You were overweight.

Yep.

You, because you're overweight, there was lots of things that you're told you're not allowed to do or you had to do being a Chinese kid.

Yeah.

One of them was, you know, you've got to get good grades, you're going to do this, you've got to go to uni. You found very early on that you wanted to look a certain way and you weren't popular, you didn't have these skills.

Yeah.

So then you went out and you made it your mission to then learn actually nutrition, went to get your degree, you went to university, you went the formal route.

Yeah.

What happened next?

Well, just—

What am I missing from that initial piece?

Well, from the initial pieces and like my— the starting of my life there.

Yeah.

So I guess it was the case of, so when I was in high school, I'll finish high school, let's say 3 PM, typical, right? Classic high school. Then I would actually catch a bus to the city here and do my personal training diploma or certificate with—

How old were you?

I believe I was— 17 or 18 then, when I was doing my year 11. So I would do that. So the only reason I actually did that was because I wanted to improve myself. So that's when it actually all started, that whole personal development as such there. I wanted to learn more about training so I can actually improve on myself there, because I had this anger or such in myself there that I just wanted to grow, I just wanted to learn, I wanted to be better with myself physically in that sense there. So I did that. I finished high school, then finished that diploma there, so I was a certified personal trainer. And then I met you while I was doing university there. And the thing is, when I met you—

Just to qualify for our audience, what was the university course exactly?

So it was a Bachelor's of Human Nutrition major in advanced physiology.

So that makes you a nutritionist?

Yes, yes. Nutritionist, right? Yep. To be a dietitian, you need to do your Master's of Dietetics to continue on, which is an extra 2 years, I believe.

Right.

Yep. And yeah, so like I was saying, then I did meet you and I actually had my world basically blown because, wow, I was thinking to myself, I did not know much about training after doing my personal training course there, which is a bit shocking because that course went for 6 months and I paid money for that. I thought I actually knew something. And then you told me about so many other things. You basically opened my eyes and showed me, oh, there's actually way more to personal training. And yeah, that's where, So this is exactly what we're talking about today, right? Exactly.

Formal education, how it's failed a lot of people.

Exactly.

You know, especially in nutrition. Especially in nutrition. You know how many nutritionists, dietitians have come through my door seeking my help being overweight, being, you know, whatever, having all these problems, eating disorders, emotional, like that's actually one of the biggest groups of people who I actually found myself, you know, full disclosure, I didn't go to university. University, right? I'm just a guy who loved training, who fell in love with physical culture. You were talking about how, you know, after school you would, you would get on the bus and go to the course. You know, when I was, uh, 15, 16, I remember it. I'd finish school 3:15 and I'd always try and finish, get out just a little bit earlier than everyone else so I could catch the 3:52 bus from East Doncaster Secondary to Westfield. And then across the road there was a gym called Genesis Doncaster. Yeah, it's burnt down now actually. Oh wow, they're building houses on it. Um, so I would train there and I remember like my knowledge when I started as a kid, uh, my knowledge around nutrition, I knew nothing, right? Like everyone else. Yeah, I thought, uh, post-workout meal was— I'm not kidding when I say this— like a Quarter Pounder. But you get, you get a double, right? You get two, two extra bits of meat.

Oh, you need the protein, right?

Yeah, you need the protein. Or you get a McChicken or a Quarter Pounder, like they're the highest in protein at McDonald's. So And then from just applying and learning, trial and error, and I suppose creating my own curriculum of these are the books that I wanted to study, these are the people who I want to emulate. So for me, a big influence was the Weston A. Price Foundation. Another big influence was Johnny Bowden. I think I've read everything of Johnny Bowden, huge fan. And obviously there's been a lot of people who I just met along the way who were personally, you know, in Melbourne, helped me out a lot from, you know, Warren Clampett to a guy named George. There's been a lot of people, Tony Doherty as well, just put me on the path and guided me and let me kind of figure it out but make enough mistakes. And also that's when I learned some of like John Demartini NLP, 'cause I had my own eating issues. And it was really Demartini and the stuff with NLP, neuro-linguistic programming, that really gave me the framework to go, right, all this stuff that you're learning about nutrition, the principles are sound, but you don't have the capacity emotionally, however else you want to say it, to actually implement it. Yeah. And they were the skills to go, right, this is actually how you put it together. So from what you learned in university, like, what fail— what do you think are the failures of university?

University, I guess. All right, so, all right, let's just go back to university, just what I can actually remember about university there. So for the first year, you have the typical foundations for all the Bachelor of Science there. So you learn about the basic chemistry, biochemistry, and everything like that, which, you know, all right, that's cool, but I couldn't use that to implement being a nutritionist there. So that's just cool to learn, just the bare basics there, but it just wasn't fun, to be honest. And then when we actually got to the point where we're supposed to learn nutritional knowledge there, we learned through statistics basically. We weren't— we learned about how to read papers or how to use data to actually say, all right, cool, this is how much vitamin D your body needs, or, you know, there is different types of iron in vegetables and meat, then how much is actually needed for different, different bodies and different people there, or the classic RDIs, which is your recommended daily intake there. So all right, we've got just a scientific side on it, and we didn't have the application there, so we didn't get to the mindset and sense of, all right, cool, I've got a person who comes to me, how do I actually start? Do I throw papers at them and say, hey, uh, so this paper says that you got to do this, so you should probably follow that? But how about knowing that person and figuring out how to apply that? That's what's missing. To be honest, because it was too scientific to an extent. I'm like, yes, we need that, we need to actually know science so that we apply the basics. But then the thing is, how do we apply it to the psychology of it?

So basically what it lacked was the art of coaching.

The art of coaching or counseling.

Yeah, the psychology and actually how to implement the practicality.

The practicality.

And that's where, where what I learned was, you know, through all the things you're looking at, the studies, looking at the science of it, really understanding the science, but I suppose where I dovetailed from what a lot of people go wrong, I dovetailed into aggressively learning about these communication methods. Even I went into like hypnosis, right? Because I was like, I need the tools to be able to better communicate to people so that I can actually get the outcome that I need. And what I often find myself saying to people is, you know, you don't need a better diet, right? If you just followed the diet that you were given 3 months ago, you'd actually get the results that you needed.

Done.

Just like that. What you need is the ability to implement the diet. Exactly. That's what everyone needs. Which are fundamentally saying it's like, it's all very well and good to develop like, if it fits your macros, macros, whatever, and count your calories and all these strategies. 'Cause let's face it, right? At the end of the day, calories in versus calories out, or you go on a keto diet, you go if it fits your macros, or you go Atkins, or whatever it is, right? They all work. Because fundamentally people have had success. And I think where people get lost is they argue on why they worked or that basically their dick's bigger, right? This protocol is better than your protocol. The reason why, right? The reason why keto works is because you lowered your calories or the reason why you lost 40 kilos on a vegan diet is because it's inherently lower calorie, right? But I think what people miss is that people are going, all right, this is the set of principles. If I just, these set of principles make sense to my model of the world. If I just follow these set of principles, I'm gonna actually get an outcome regardless of the modality. Let's say whether it's keto.

Yes.

Like people dismiss keto because it's, you know, it's only fats and you just lower your calories, right? Like it's calories in versus calories out. But I think at this point of the game, if calories in versus calories out, like what you said about the university message, like just understand the science of it and it will happen. Like that's not enough. Yeah. Right, it's not enough in the sense that people can continue to learn. And I've seen again with the example of nutritionists, they go to school, they get the degree, and they still struggle because the emotional set of rules of their model of the world, that science, doesn't match. There's not a synchronous of who they are and how they can actually implement the data. Yeah, thoughts?

Yep, I completely agree there. Uh, speaking of, you know, the Big Dick comparison there, I completely agree there. I feel as if, you know, people are just holding themselves to such to a belief structure. And if you just talk about it, there's just gonna be so aggressive about it. And it's like, hey, don't be aggressive about it. Open up your mind to know the possibilities there. Yes, you know, there is calories in, uh, calories in, calories out there. There is the, you know, holistic way of eating their whole foods and such. You know, whatever works for you works for you, perfect. But you don't have to be too aggressive. It's like, oh, I might get a bit of backlash here for, you know, talking about the vegans or whatever like that. It's like like, cool, there are vegans out there, but you don't need to come up to me and be aggressive and tell me— preach about it. You know, whatever works for you, perfect.

Well, I think it's even true for like the evidence-based community, right? Like, because people go, I'm in the evidence-based community, like, you know, you have to have 65 papers on this one thing. But the truth is, in the evidence-based community, there are papers proving against what they're saying, right? Like, there are studies showing for both sides. Yeah, always, always. So to say that something's like evidence-based, again, at this point, it's like, well, my science is better than yours, therefore you should listen to my cult leader instead of your cult leader. But then, you know, and I think you saw this with, um, the documentary The Game Changers, right? So they put the documentary, which is the vegan documentary, right? They had, um, you know, Chris Kresser and, uh, James Wilks, I think it was, on the Joe Rogan Show, and they went back and forth. We actually did one, Jeremy and I, and we spoke about that podcast. But the point was, you know, it was Chris versus James, like, my science is better than yours. Oh no, you misread study. No, you don't even know how to read forest plots. I know you— at the end of the day, like, all well and good, but you've just confused people. Yeah, right. And then there was like, what's his name, BioLane, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And he did a critique of it with a study, and he was really aggressive on it. And then it was like, you know, someone else in the vegan community did another study on it, and they were really— it's like, you've misread the study. It's— at the end of the day, what they're saying is my science is better, you know. But What you're ultimately doing, what I think a lot of the scientific community miss, is it's that appeal to that emotional, for whatever reason, it's getting the right nutritional protocol and principles and making it fit into someone's model of the world. And I think it's also about accepting, right? 'Cause to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And it's also about accepting that you might be an evidence-based guy, right? Like your tool, like you, I know you, right? Like your tool is like, I like to count my macros, right? I like to know where I hit. But it's also accepting that you're gonna meet people that to them, the idea of counting macros—

Oh, it's just horrendous.

Doesn't fit them.

They'll just kill your head.

Right? Like, it's just, I just don't understand numbers. I wasn't good at maths as a kid. I hate maths. I hate numbers. That really sounds complicated to me. It's like, no, no, no, it's simple, right? This is all about this. Just give me a set of rules. And that's where they say, you know, you can eat whatever you want as long as you don't eat carbohydrates. And they're like, oh fuck, I can do that. And they lose, 20 kilos, right? But it's accepting that it's, what people do where I think a lot of experts go wrong is they challenge that, oh, well, the only reason you lost weight was because you lowered your calories. You know, you could actually do it on an If It Fits Your Macro plan. Well, no, the truth is they could do it on an If It Fits Your Macros plan. This person, this person has a set of rules in their life that doesn't allow them to do what you did. And you need to actually go into that person's model of the world and respect that they need soundbites information your big picture concepts that make sense.

Yeah, and of course we're talking about the general population here. If we're talking, let's say, high-end athletes there—

I would even say for athletes.

Would you say so?

For everyone.

Everyone.

Because I don't know if you've heard the analogy of, um, chef, baker, cook.

I believe you mentioned it, but I've never— go ahead.

Yeah, so, so a way to kind of think about this is you have cooks, you have bakers, and you have chefs, right? So what's the difference between cooking and baking?

Cooking and baking, um, One involves flour and bread and the other one involves—

It's the mathematics of baking, right? Right. So if I cook a meal, right, let's say I'm making, I don't know, some stir fry, right?

Yeah.

Put some butter on the pan. I put some carrot, put a little bit of parsley.

So stir fry and butter?

Whatever I can put like meat, put chicken in there. I can put some chili. Oh, that's a bit spicy. Maybe I'll put some more chicken in, put some more vegetables. There's no mathematics, right? Cooking is very free and easy. Oh, maybe I'll put some coconut in there.

Yeah, why not?

You can always like savor the dish, right? Baking has the exact formula, precise, exact time. If you put the sugar in before you put the eggs and you put the oven on and you don't do the right steps— I don't know, I don't bake— but if you don't do exactly the right steps at the right time, you know, your bread's not going to rise. Yeah, you're not going to get the result that you want. You're going to have a very, uh, you know, cake that doesn't taste quite right. It's going to be flat. So essentially, people also are like that, right? You have people who are quite big picture. Yeah. I think athletes, regardless of whether you're a professional athlete or regardless of whether you're just a general pop person, because I know people who are not general, who are general pop, yeah, that are bakers, right? And you give them a macro plan, they love it. They're like, wow, why didn't I know this earlier? This changed my life.

Exactly.

But then you get athletes in the same, uh, who just are not numerically inclined whatsoever, and you plan out their calories and they look at the sheet and it reminds them of primary school where the teacher made fun of them for not being good at maths, or the kids made fun of them not being good at maths, and they've got a lot of negative connotations and they just rule it out. I'm just not interested in this, give me the big picture. So they're fundamentally, when you group someone into cook and baker, right, you know, understanding whether the person you're working with is a cook or whether they're a baker. On top of that, what I find is the chefs, the chefs are the ones who have been doing it for a long time. Right? So you might meet a client and they've had maybe 6 other coaches before they've come to see you, right? They've been all around and they've trained and they're already at a point where they kind of know to a degree what works. And chefs can actually be pretty much pains in the ass to work because chefs, depending on their experience, they can actually be really easy because they know what works and they just do it. And because at the end of the day, like a 5-class, you know, whatever Michelin chef, they can break the rules because they know, like, they can see this ingredient and be like, you know, I'm supposed to bake this certain way, but instead of baking this way, instead of adding salt in, I'm going to add, I don't know, some other ingredient, right? Switch it out, get the nitric oxide, whatever it is, make this like cool shit happen no one's ever seen before. And for whatever reason, they can make it work because they have that level of experience. Whereas 90% of the population, that ain't working. And you see these people like in bodybuilding contests, they're just mutants that, you know, the night before they had you know, a whole plate of lasagna and there is no science behind like them eating dairy, that much this or whatever. And then before they go on stage, they drank a bottle of whiskey and you're like, this just does not make sense. Nothing about what this person does has made sense.

Yeah.

But they're a mutant and they're able to do it. It works because they're at a certain level. Yeah. And this is where the general population come in where they go, oh, chef, I want to do what the chef's doing. supposed to bake this certain way, but instead of baking this way, instead of adding salt in, I'm going to add, I don't know, some other ingredient, switch it out, get the nitric oxide, whatever it is, make this, like, cool shit happen no one's ever seen before. And for whatever reason, they can make it work because they have that level of experience. Whereas 90% of the population, that ain't working. And you see these people, like in bodybuilding contests, they're just mutants that, you know, the night before they had, wiggle room, right? But you've gotta be at a high enough level for that wiggle. And the higher level you are, the more wiggle room there is. Like the leaner you are, the more high glycemic, you know, high sugary—

High sugars, like you, you've got maple syrup post-workout.

Yeah, I mean, I love maple syrup post-workout. But you're not, like, that's something that you earn.

No, yeah.

You know, like through your, say for example, to analogize this with the belt system, you know, from white belt to black belt, you don't, you know, expect to be kicking people's ass at white belt. You got to earn, earn, earn. Same thing with, you know, being able to add these foods back into your diet. You want to get someone lean enough because you've got to respect the— how do I say— biology, like the things like hormonally. So things like insulin sensitivity. Yes, right. So insulin sensitivity is a factor, but again, the calories in— I suppose evidence-based community will say things like it's all just about calories. If you just lower the calories, then the insulin sensitivity will will improve.

Yeah.

But it's, for me at least, I don't know about you, it's not a question of all, like, it's not like I have to do this or this. Yeah, I can do this and I can do this. Yeah, I don't have to pick and be divisive in terms of which camp that I sit on. I want, want to optimize everything, right?

Yes, exactly, optimize everything as best possible.

What have you found?

Well, it's one of those things with nutrition-wise where I say optimal is relative, and I always say that. And so when someone asks, oh, what's the best nutrition? I'll say it's completely dependent on the person there. And yes, all right, cool. So we can actually fix insulin sensitivity. You can always fix, uh, let's say low carbohydrates, high carbohydrates, everything depending on the person. Yes, but it is the psychology of it too. So let's say, all right, we get a client and let's say somewhat obese there, and it's good for them to go on a low-carb diet and, you know, to help them with inflammation and with the insulin sensitivity, as well as, you know, cut back on calories there. But the thing is, if they can't follow it, it's not optimal, is it? So the most optimal thing would be, all right, cool, give them a bit of carbs and they can actually do it and be in a caloric deficit and actually feel better in that sense and take little steps there. Then eventually, let's say you go no carbs or go lower carbohydrates there, then I say that's the perfect scenario there.

So it's a compliancy trial, basically?

Yeah, compliancy. Because the thing is, nutrition is so simple. It shouldn't be complicated in any way possible. Eat whole foods. How freaking hard is that? I think so nutrition is easy, it's just the compliancy. It's the, um, there's so much information out there just confusing people. Being evidence-based, being low-carb, being carnivore diet, being keto, being that.

It's like Atkins, vegan.

Exactly. It's like, which one do I pick? The general pop would say that, and I say, whatever works for you. We got to figure out whatever works for you.

The question is, what works for me? How do I know what works for me?

I mean, that's where you come to us, right?

People start saying, oh, I'll do the blood type diet, and then you have the evidence-based saying, well 'Oh, you know, maybe it's just all about calories.' And then you have the keto population or the keto group saying, 'Well, no, don't do that, that's too hard. You don't have to weigh anything, just eat whatever you want, but just select these foods.' So I think the advice, like, find what works for you. I mean, it's kind of cliche.

Yeah, I know, it's frustrating because like, how do they know that?

Correct.

I guess the biggest advice that I could always give is stick to whole foods first, because that will make life so much easier. No matter if you're going calories in, calories out, keto, whatever.

But whole foods are like Weet-Bix.

I'm just about to jump on the table and tackle you right now.

No, but that is the perception.

That is the general consensus.

That is the general, like whole foods include wheat, you know, and commercial milk and who knows what else. All right, so let's take a step back.

All right, let's take a step back there and actually go for, all right, so let's redefine the term whole foods here. Let's go for, like we said, hunted fish, gathered, and plucked.

Thank you, Johnny Bowden.

Exactly. Oh, okay. Huh.

All right. Well, no, that is the Johnny Bowden famous 4 food groups. That's where I got it from. Like, I'm just giving credit to the master. Johnny Bowden, like, you know, he's the one who I first heard coin that term, which was hunted fish, gathered, and plucked. So people sometimes think that I came up with that. I didn't come up with that. That's Johnny Bowden.

Oh yeah, the paleo diet. Yes, exactly.

Well, not even paleo diet. This was Johnny Bowden wrote that, I think, like, in 2000. Yeah. Like, we're talking 20 years ago. He said, you know, it was even before. I can't remember when he published. Living Low Carb. It was a number of years ago now, but, you know, he would talk about his famous 4 food groups being hunted, fish, gathered, and plucked. That's how I define.

Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, that actually works so freaking well because that includes whole foods there. And the thing is, let's say hunted, fish, and gathered. So that's your vegetables, that's your protein there. And yeah, that's basically it there. So if you're able to have that, let's see, science will tell you most population needs more protein. Most of the population needs more vitamins or micronutrients. That's gonna be your vegetables there, as well as your meat there. Most people need fiber. So if you stick to that hunted, fish, and gather, life is just gonna be fairly easy. I'm just gonna just put it out there. So biggest advice, stick to that.

So the thing for you though, like, because you've kind of come full circle, at least I think you've come full circle on this, right? So you, you, I think actually have come like full circle twice. I'll explain what I mean.

Okay, yeah.

So you started off with your university, you got indoctrinated with calories in versus calories out, right? Then you met me and I was like, nah, fuck that shit.

Calories don't count.

I remember you told me that.

I was so frustrated.

They obviously do count, but I was like, so like, I wanted to shake you and say there's a life behind, you know, there's more to food than just counting calories. And then you kind of snapped out of that and you went to, all right, calories, I'm placing too much emphasis on calories. And then I feel like, I don't know, maybe like when you were here and when you went to Dubai, you kind of went more into the macro, let's count everything, let's weigh everything to the letter. And then now coming back, you've come to the actually, I'm actually a big advocate of intuitive eating.

I am a very big advocate of that.

So I suppose the question on all of that is what prompted, I suppose, what, what for a guy who is very science-based, let's look at the studies, let's look at just calories in, let's do the macros, because you've done that, you've done it to a very high level, and you know, you understand it better than most experts. To bring you full circle back to intuitive eating personally, and as well with your clients, what, like, what's that process? Like, what prompted you? What, what triggered it?

I think it was just a frustrating frustration of needing to count calories. So the thing is, all right, okay, I've done every diet under the sun. I've done Atkins, I've done low carbs, I've done keto, I've done fits your macros. I've done carnivore for a month. I've done literally every diet possible. So it was a case of, all right, cool, I did it just to learn about it as well as to, you know, I always— all right, so I like this idea of, you know, there's something there that I could always learn. So I was trying to learn from that. And the thing is, at the end of the day, it was annoying at times where you have to follow these guidelines. So that's why I pursued—

what was annoying at times? Just quantify what you said.

It's like, all right, so low carbs, I have to stick to low carbs all the time. Oh no, there's restrictions of sorts. You know what I mean?

That, and then, and then you had the same thing when you went in for 50 macros.

Yes. It's like, oh, I got to stick to this. I got to count vegetables. I do not want to count vegetables. I just want to eat a piece of broccoli if I want to and not count it.

But you get to eat your ice cream if you want to, if you calculate it.

Yeah. But the thing is, it's not really fun doing it.

It comes down to tradeoffs.

Yes. There's too much tradeoffs with a lot of these diets there.

This is perfect because this is exactly my point. Yeah. People argue about you know, a keto diet is unhealthy, or clean eating, right? The famous one is clean eating is an eating disorder. You know, only eating chicken and broccoli and just wanting to eat hunted, fished, gathered, and plucked, eating like wholesome foods, that's an eating disorder. You should be able to pig out, you know, once a week and eat whatever you want regardless of how healthy you are, um, versus just count your calories and eat whatever you want. I say like both of them inherently— what I think the evidence base and If It Fits Your Macros community forget is that both of them are based on perspective. Like, I can have the perspective that counting my calories is easier. You can have the perspective that it's harder. I can have a perspective that actually if I just choose these foods, I don't have to focus so much on counting. It, it really comes back down perspective, and that is what you're saying from doing all these diets. It is the perspective. And probably in time, I'm guessing the diet that you're doing now is kind of that center point of eating wholesome natural foods.

Yes.

But also calculating but then putting it in a way and format that actually has still a bit of wriggle room.

Yes, exactly. I mean, like, so right now as we speak—

Hybrid.

Yeah, it's always a hybrid, isn't it? I mean, it's always— Yeah, so I'm like, I'm going through different phases of my life right now. So let's say if we take one year ago, literally a year ago, pre-COVID, um, yeah, I was just intuitive eating and I was fairly lean. I had my six-pack abs all year round. I wasn't even caring. And there was just intuitive eating because I know how much protein I need— a palm size, easy. I need some vegetables. Perfect. I felt like, let's say, going out for a burger, I will go out for a burger and I will not complain. And I had the best relationship with food because I struggled back then with relationship with food because of, you know, all the calorie counting, all the science-based. Oh well, I competed back then too. We'll get into that later. But, um, yeah, so that's why I push back to intuitive eating. So let's say, all right, the phase right now I'm in, it's like, all right, cool, I want to put on more size.

Okay. If I may.

Oh yeah, sorry, yeah, I'm just jumping in.

Yeah, yeah, because you just, you just brought up something like here, right?

Yeah.

So we've got, you know, we've got a number of clients. I'm thinking of a couple in my head right now, young girls, okay, right? And they come here and they struggle with food and they have the best intentions, very intelligent, very intelligent girls, and they, they, they love their fitness. They live to like, they love training. They come into the gym, it lights them up. They love seeing their coach. And they have 1,000 questions on nutrition, right? And they said exactly what you just said, where they at, they have a bad relationship with food.

Yes.

How did you navigate that? How did you, and I mean, what year are we talking? Was this just a couple years ago and now you've navigated? What are the steps? How does someone get control of it?

So that's actually learned. So basically for me to actually answer that question, we just gotta go back to my history of competing.

Yes, let's do it.

So I competed first with you coaching me.

Yes.

Then the next two competitions, so I did an IFBB physique show, the Victorians here. I got 4th place. That was pretty good. Then the next one in Gold Coast, I got 1st place in the novice— yeah, in a novice physique.

Amateur Olympia.

Yeah, Amateur Olympia. So that was pretty good. Yeah, it was pretty big. But one of the biggest things that I did that year in terms of prep-wise, which kind of fucked with my head there and gave me a food disorder, was I did a 1-year prep for those 2 shows. I had only 3 cheat meals, and that was in the first month.

Wow.

Yeah, and none of that— I did not stray one bit and did all the cardio. At the very end of the show, I had only 1,200 calories. I was doing 2 hours of cardio a day and 2 weightlifting sessions.

How much did you weigh?

Uh, I weighed on stage 69.9, and I shredded glutes. By all means, I was freaking—

you were like, like 40% below baseline, 50% below baseline?

Oh yeah, I was, oh yeah. So we were counting calories and everything like high protein, zero fat, zero carbs. So it wasn't the best there. So yeah, so that basically gave me the eating disorder there. So after that, when I actually do eat food—

So can I just back you up, right?

Yeah.

So I had a similar thing when I competed the first time, right? You know, restricted and all that kind of stuff. So I completely get what you're saying. So you had this super restrictive phase. From the super restrictive phase, you then started to go, right, I have absolutely no idea what I'm supposed to eat. Like what was the next step?

Oh, right. So actually before jumping into that one, for me to actually go for 1 year without a cheat meal basically, I had to use, this is the same way I actually got out of it by the way. I had to use the Be, Have, Do model by Dr. John Demartini there. It's more of like, who do I have to be?

You mean Napoleon.

Be, do, have, sorry.

Napoleon, he goes, back.

Oh, is it much?

Yeah, it goes way back.

It's be, do, have, right?

Be, do, have. But be, do, have is like old.

Oh, okay. I first heard it from you, from Dr. G. Yeah, yeah, uh, yeah, basically you have to be the person to do the actions to get the results there. Then you create a habit loop there so that you actually keep doing that and that ingrains in your head there. So for me, I had to be competitor in my head, so I acted like a professional bodybuilder or professional physique there, and that's how I actually did it. I did all the cardio without a complaint without a tear, and I was just straight on.

I identified as a competitor.

I identified myself.

If I said, who is Marshall Tan back then, he would say, I am a bodybuilder, I compete.

Exactly.

This is who I am, this is what I do.

Exactly. So that's exactly what I did there. And so after that, I had my, well, I had my first cheat meal post-show there, and wow, I could not control. I went straight to binging and everything because I lost the identity of B2F. I'm like, if I'm not a competitor, who the hell am I? Because for a whole year I told myself that. And that ingrained myself, that ingrained into my psychology really, really badly. So I was completely lost as to who I was there. So for me to actually get back into it, I had to figure out who I wanted to be again to do the actions and get the results there. So it was a case of creating a new habit in my head and actually learning that. It took me a while, but it was a case of self-reflection and just learning as to, all right, cool, I don't know who I am. I lost that because I lost being a competitor. And that whole year just, pushed so hard in my head there. So I created a new version of myself there. So the way I looked at foods right now, I'm not too sure who I was trying to be right now, but the way I look at food right now is food is a conduit to human connection. Why? Yeah, so that's my—

That's very different.

Yeah, oh, completely different. So basically—

So you— sorry, continue.

Oh yeah, so basically in terms of food-wise, everything is whole food. When I do not eat, let's say, food that's outside of my, let's say, whole foods, whatever, let's say I'll go out for cheesecake, whatever, it will always be with a friend. And I'll use it as connection here because, you know, food is culture. Food has been driven into culture.

I mean, yeah, like if you look for the last thousands of years—

oh my God—

the whole thing around like sharing food.

Exactly.

And this is the thing that like in the evidence-based community, if it fits your macros, a lot— and even like keto and things— like they tend to forget is that we are indoctrinated or ingrained almost in our biology. Exactly. Indoctrinated, but it's actually the opposite, that there's always been every culture a passing of, you know, if I come to your house, I bring food or I bring a bottle of wine or I bring something that signifies a connection or thank you. And then exactly sharing this together, you've prepared a meal. And with that preparation of the meal, whether it's Christmas, Easter, whatever, pick your holiday, that's signifying you are important to me. Please eat the food that I've prepared. This is an act of love.

Yes.

And now let's sit down and talk about our lives and share more common interests, but over this, which is actually connecting. I love it. It's fantastic.

Yeah. So that's, that's how I preach my food right now. So whenever, let's say if we're going to go out for food there, I will enjoy it. I will not care for the world because this is between you and me. It's not me and the food. I have no relationship with food because we could do something else and actually enjoy each other's company.

It's how the food brings you together with the people.

Exactly.

It's using food as a medium to bring connection into someone's life.

Exactly.

Beautiful.

Exactly.

And you know what? I wanted to comment on that because I had exactly the same thing when I competed my first time, 2000, 4th, came last out of a lineup of 8 people. I thought in my head, you know, I was going to win and I was something special. And obviously I got that fantasy broken down, right? And, you know, very similar, I went, you know, over a year, no cheat meals, very focused. And the diet, you know, it wasn't calculated. The coach that I had at the time, he wasn't a very good coach, you know, let's just put it like that. And that, you know, I went straight into the binging, straight into the binging, and really didn't have anything. But luckily I met Tony Doherty He helped me compete 2005. Again, I faced, after I competed, I fell into that I am now competitor because, you know, the thing that you've probably felt is when you get off stage and, you know, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't, I was a junior, I wasn't at the Natural Mr. Olympia, you know, or natural, uh, whatever you call it, the, uh, yeah, it was, uh, right, like I wasn't at that level, right? I, I was just at a state show level. Yeah, but I still had it. I think people have it regardless of what level you're at. People get that identity and it's that identity that triggers like, I have to eat this way. 'Cause the other thing that gets reinforced as a competitor or as an athlete or whatever it is, is the minute you get off stage, people then say to you, so when are you competing next? When are you competing next? When are you competing next?

I've gotta add this in. That is what we call priming in psychology. Basically, all right, so we create a new culture of bodybuilding basically when we actually decide to compete. So we surround ourselves by people who compete too. We surrounded ourselves by social media, we follow people who compete and everything like that. And then we prime ourselves saying that we are bodybuilders, we should be doing this, we should have this in this order, we should be eating 5, 6 meals a day kind of thing. And next thing you know, you got people who are in the same boat there priming you by saying, when are you competing? Are you sure you should be eating that cheat meal kind of thing? All right, so don't get me wrong, bodybuilding is a complete extreme sport. It can help a lot of people, but a lot of times I don't think it's the healthiest thing in terms of psychology-wise.

How far you push anything. Like it's using it as a tool.

I mean, using it as a tool, but the thing is, at the end of the day, I don't think it's actually healthy there. These days, I mean, when you look at it, it's a culture. What is culture? Culture is created by human beings. So we made it a normality to actually train 6 times a day, which is fine, perfect. We made it normality to do that. But the thing is, they're making normality out of disorders too.

Well, the thing is though, when you look at culture, I think, you can't really talk about culture without celebritizing the image of what that culture is trying to portray.

Yeah.

Now what I mean by that is if we look at celebrities, for example, let's just say in the '80s the first person that comes to mind is like Tom Hanks. Like, yeah, uh, not Tom Hanks, um, Tom Cruise, right? He was the, the poster boy. Uh, was that movie, um, what's that movie?

Tobey Maguire, Risky Business?

Uh, no, no, uh, Tom Cruise. Anyway, um, Show Me the Money.

Show me Jerry Maguire.

Jerry Maguire. There we go. Thank you. So, you know, he was a kind of poster boy of, right, you know, this is— or even Trump back in the '80s, like, this is what success is. And people would put him on the pedestal of, like, you know, in business, this is what you're trying to achieve. You know, in Silicon Valley, Steve Jobs, late great Steve Jobs, or these kind of people, or Elon Musk, they're put up and they're celebratized. And from that, I think, deviates or sends what people essentially try and work towards and then encourage each other to then, you know, that's what we're striving for, that's the goal.

Yeah.

And I think in bodybuilding, right, the goal in bodybuilding is very simple: get as big as you can.

Yeah.

And get as lean as you can. Yeah. If you're a guy. If you're a girl, basically have the biggest ass possible and the smallest waist. Exactly. Right, like it's, it's look the most perky or look the most jacked. That is the goal. Now we are then going to organize our actions as a culture to— if that's the goal, that's what we hold up, and anyone who achieves that, that's what we celebrate. Then everything else transcends and goes, right, if you're not eating 6 meals a day, then you ain't hardcore enough. If you're not lifting this way, you ain't hardcore enough. I mean, you see this even in powerlifting, right?

Yeah.

Like, if you're not training through an injury, like say Westside—

oh my God, yes—

who really pushed that like kind of message, if you don't train through this injury, you're not one of us, you're not hardcore enough, right? But, but that's ultimately, I think, these cultures get affected by— I mean, culture is affected by people at the end of the day.

Yes, yes.

So to say like, you know, I think bodybuilding per se, like bodybuilding, I think you can partake in bodybuilding without actually having to compete. That's using bodybuilding as a tool.

Oh, no, no, that is a perfect, that's an amazing way. That's an amazing way. But I believe when you keep pushing further and further there, it gets to the point where it's like, all right, cool, what is bodybuilding? It's all right, like you said, you know, you gotta get, you know, smallest waist, get the biggest muscle, have the most developed body there. But the thing is, isn't it teaching people to actually judge themselves physically constantly, being worried that, you know, the glutes are not big enough, getting— make sure that they're not shredded enough.

Of course it is, because that's the goal.

That is, I know, but you can't divorce that. No, I know you can't divorce that, but the thing is, can you divorce the idea that, you know, you can— you— the question is, can you make it healthy though? Can you make bodybuilding healthy in that sense there? Because is there any role model out there that is preaching, cool, I'll bodybuild, but then I freaking love my body, I freaking love, you know, how we're all developing in a psychological sense too.

Well, you know what? I do think there is someone there and his name's Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know? And I think the reason why I admire him—

Yeah?

Yeah, as the guy in bodybuilding still—

Yeah.

Is because he did something that most bodybuilders forget, is he used bodybuilding as the ultimate tool to then become a famous actor that made him millions and millions of dollars. But even before, people don't know about Arnie, is before he even went into the movies, he was a millionaire, a real estate millionaire. Yeah, right. So then he went into movies because he didn't want to be someone's bitch.

Yeah.

So he had all these tools and processes of being, you know, having a great body. He used that to his advantage. He said, I want to be a famous actor. Then from being a famous actor, he's like, well, I'm going to be a politician. Then from being a politician, he's like, I'm going to go around the world and spread my message of health and fitness and create the Arnold Classic and have business partners in every continent. To me, like, people admire and say, you know, Arnie is the greatest bodybuilder and all this kind of stuff. It's like It's like, to me, that aside, right? He's someone who used bodybuilding to achieve and to ascend himself. And there are people who do that even in martial arts. Like, they are great martial artists or they're great at training, but they use the principles and they— and I'll tell you, like, on myself, I try and be one of these people. I think I'm one of these people because I've taken all the, the habits of being disciplined with my training, being disciplined with my food, and then put it all into business.

Yeah.

And it's personal relationships. To actually build and ascend my life because it's the same skill set, right? So this is for me, it's like, yes, I think sometimes with bodybuilding and any, any pursuit, you need to go so hard that you get burnt, right? So it's like you develop that disorder. And I would say for me, I wouldn't be the person I am if I didn't develop that disorder and then also come onto the other side of it and go, right, there's a line. That's where it is. For you, that's where the line is. Now you can recognize that line. You can come back and go, right, if I cross this line here, this is where it now starts. And I'll give you a perfect story, right? This is where, when I figured it out, this is the line. If you cross this line here, call it imaginary, whatever, if you cross this line here, now it becomes unhealthy. And I think that's the first part of recognizing that. So for me, I remember 2005, I was backstage at a bodybuilding show and I was hearing these two guys talking about bodybuilding and they're going back and forth. And one of the guys said, you know, I've been competing 10 years. And he's talking about all the shows that he won and how like, you know, and the guy's like, you look amazing. And the guy looked, you know, I think he's like 40-odd. He looked amazing, right? You're like, this is how you want to look if you're a bodybuilder. And then he started saying, yeah, I've been having a lot of problems though lately. I've been on antidepressants. Me and my wife are constantly arguing. I don't have a great relationship with the kids. I haven't taken them anywhere. I haven't been on a holiday in 10 years. And basically went on to say, you know, how hard his job is and he just just hates life, but he's got this bodybuilding. And I looked at myself in that locker room where everyone was getting pumped up and I saw my future if I continued to identify myself as a bodybuilder. I could work for the next 10 years and be that guy, be the unhappy guy who had all the physique, but he hasn't applied what he's learned from bodybuilding into every other area. So I made a commitment to myself when I saw that at that time in 2005. And I said, I'm not gonna be that guy. I'm gonna empower every area. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be successful in business. I'm gonna have relationships. I'm gonna understand what finances are. I'm gonna have, you know, social interactions with people. I'm gonna go on holidays and I'm gonna use this as part of my life to enhance it.

Yeah, I completely agree. Like, that was, that's freaking amazing there. But I guess the question is, you know, isn't like, all right, I truly believe you. Why can you not be a bodybuilder and go out with a half a good family? Why can you not be a bodybuilder and, you know, have a successful gym or successful, you know, law career or whatever like that? I think it's people who just limit themselves and say that if they're a bodybuilder, they have to be a bodybuilder, they have to do only that. So I guess the question is, how do we not make— well, how do we make sure that people don't actually fall for the trap and get to that extreme there? Because the thing is, my worry in terms of competing is people get too much of extreme there and associate themselves with one identity. I think you can be every single possible person and still get that results and do pretty good.

I believe that. Well, reiterate what you're saying though.

Oh, oh yes, isn't like— all right, so I feel like in terms of competing, a lot of people get in the trap of, you know, them needing to be the bodybuilder to compete. Why can it not be someone who just enjoys bodybuilding compete and still be a good father?

Well, I, I think the answer is because when you make this your priority, like, I think it's this, right? It comes down to this. It's the myth in life that you can do everything. You know, those posters of those women's support group and they talk about, you know, the woman that can have it all. And I think women are victimized in this way that much more than men in the sense that you can be a have-it-all woman. You know, you can have the career, you can have the 2 kids, you can have the husband, you can go on the holidays, you can have all these things, you can have the great body. Truth is to have all those things, something's gotta be sacrificed. You know, you're not gonna have an amazing business and an amazing relationship with your kids and amazing relationship and go on holidays. Like I'm a business owner, right? Like I don't get all the holidays in the world. I get it. If the business is burning down, I gotta be at the business. And that's just the truth of life with anything. So where I'm going with this is that in anything, if you decide I want to compete, right? And you put 100% focus and effort in that, it's going to impact some other area of life. Yeah, it's going to. And to say that I'm going to compete and I'm also going to be as functioning high level in my business— well, newsflash, competing, you know, if you're training to compete, it's probably going to take you 2 hours a day to train. Yeah. Now if you're in a startup phase or you want to grow your business, that's 2 hours you don't get to train on your business. And we're not talking even now about all the food prep that goes into that and the supplements and getting to bed early, right? Like, if I'm in, in hustle mode, I'm going to bed at 12 o'clock. I'm getting up at, you know, 6, 7 o'clock, and I'm just working on business, right? Like, training is an afterthought. If I'm competing, then training— I need to situate my day around competing. So I think you can have a very disciplined lifestyle, but there is a, I suppose, risk in today's society where everything is geared towards achievement, about having it all, where it's realizing actually, you know, I can probably only have 2, maybe 3 things at most in my life and I really actually need to decide what are the 3 most important and then be okay with that. Deciding that and going, right, for the next 12, 20 weeks, I've decided that this thing called competing is the most important thing. I'm gonna go into that hole of being obsessive, but then also understand having people there to pull you out of the hole when it does become obsessive. And that's where people go wrong, I think personally. Because if you're gonna pursue, and I think like your question is, why can't you have both? Well, I think the reason why you can't have both is because—

[Speaker] As well as how do you not fall into trap You have to get stuck in the hole so you can't get out, correct?

Because then your identity gets entrenched, right? And that's where, before going into it, I, you know, my wife Christine, um, she had a very good approach when she competed, right? She basically said, I want to compete and I just want to see how I'll go. And she made a decision when she competed, like, she's loved training, she's been training her whole life, right? Um, but she made a decision from the moment before she stepped on stage She made a decision that she's only going to compete once, and if she wins, she wins. She comes last, that's it. Cool. Like, I'm doing it once. Yeah, she did. She won, right? And then immediately after, you know, she looked great on stage. She could have— she kept going, she wouldn't want to miss Australia, easy. She would have gone very, very far. Yeah, but she decided, no, I'm doing this once. And when people came to her after, you know, when's your next show? She said, I'm not competing again. They're like, what? Yeah, what do you mean? Yeah, it's like I just wanted to see what it was about.

Yeah, you know, good on her.

Yeah, look, she had the potential, but that's someone, you know, she took it away. And like, I can— now we've got two kids now, um, she said, I'm gonna compete. Like, she'll tell you straight out, she's like, you're dreaming. Like, you know, she— because she's got a naturopathic business, we've got two kids, you know, she's got me as a husband who's a full-time job in himself, um, you know, and all these other things that we want to do together. So then if we're going to add competing back into that, that's another thing that you have to you know, basically manage. So I think it's, it's about picking, picking which spots that you want.

Yeah.

I hope you are enjoying this episode of The Wolf's Den with my friend and Enterprise Master Coach Marshall Tan. I want to take this moment to tell you about Enterprise Fitness. At Enterprise, we are a one-to-one personal training studio specializing in results. We work with people from all walks of life. Now in this crazy, crazy new world that we're all facing, you want to make sure that you know, there aren't too many people in the gym. And that's something that Enterprise Fitness, we can guarantee. Because as I said, we do not open as a gym, we only do one-to-one personal training. And we know each and every single person who comes through our doors. We don't think about the hour, we think about the outcome, creating programs and plans for people to hit their goals and results. So whether it's training, nutrition, rehabilitation, or just getting in the very best shape of your life, make sure you give us a call. It's 1300 888 043, or email info@enterprisefitness.com.au. Alrighty, Mr. Marshall, I feel like we need to do a segment and really just like get it out in the open. Let's do calories in versus calories out.

Okay.

Versus clean eating. I'll give you my initial thoughts, right? My initial thoughts are that calories in versus calories out is overstated. In the sense that yes, well fundamentally it's true, calories in versus calories out, like you need to respect that law, that principle, you can't consume too much. But to say to people the reason why you're fat or unhealthy or overweight is simply because you eat too much is ultimately a disservice in the sense that it doesn't give any applicable knowledge to someone. It tells you how someone is getting overweight, e.g., they're eating too much or they're doing the wrong things, but it doesn't tell you why they're eating too much or what they're doing, uh, and also gives them the possibility of outcome. So I feel that the step back from that, again, the real, I suppose, uh, committers of these and the people who are offenders is the evidence-based community making everything is about calories in versus calories out, and you can eat absolute junk and absolute shit as long as it hits this target. I think ultimately, holistically, it's, it's kind of like businesses getting free money, right? Like they raise all this money and they have equity. Like that can lead to problems in business because people have mismanagement and they spend absorbent amounts of money and they don't have a business that ever becomes profitable and ultimately they become out of business, right? So I think in a lot of ways we need to peel it back. Clean eating on the other hand is just restricting yourself to only eating those foods. I think where people go wrong with that is as what you were saying before about the connection is they don't allow themselves to go to someone's house or go to their friend's house and use food as a celebration means or to be able to actually connect with people. You know, they miss out on their friend's birthday and all these things and just using food as a medium to connect to one another. I think that's where clean eating goes wrong. And I think there is a happy medium between the two. And I think we need to spend more time seeing that, like how you can actually use them both and principles not eating too much, understanding a little bit about macros and implementing that into the plan, but also acknowledging that it's foods that are hunted, fished, gathered, and plucked. That is what you're going to be eating 80-90% of the time.

So yes, I completely agree with your stance there, actually, uh, in terms of calorie in versus calories out there. There's so much extremes there. People just eat junk for the sake of, you know, calories in because calories out, because they can get away with it. But things— they don't look at the internal side as to how their gut is going. Or how their energy is going, or so many other factors like blood work there. So there is that overstatement about calories in and calories out there. And just go too extreme there. I mean, hence, you know, if it fits your macros, I'm gonna fit in some ice cream because it's okay. But then you feel like crap and you feel really, really hungry there.

So you've lived like that, you've done it.

Yes, like I said, I've done every diet and I was really hungry when I did if it fits your macros. Not a big fan of calorie counting, calories from vegetables, just to put it out there. Yeah, in terms of the clean eating there, all right, all right, so like we said, that is an— oh, there's also an extreme there. They don't use food as a medium. Of course, eating wholesome food, eating clean food is good for you, but where is that psychology of, you know, enjoying food with friends and family there? So that medium is completely taken away there. So, uh, with that being said, happy medium is always the case there. You can never go to the extremes. Just because, um, If It Fits Your Macros works for someone else doesn't mean it will work for another person. Just because clean eating works for someone else doesn't work for another person. You have to combine both of them to an extent there.

Yeah, I suppose in summary, for me, what I've seen is the clean eaters and the If It Fits Your Macros people is they've all changed camps at least once. Like, if you do it for long enough you're gonna get sick of it and you're gonna hate it fundamentally, right? Like, people who go, I'm just gonna eat consistently clean, they end up doing it and they, they end up hating it. And the ones who do fit your macros, they have the exact experience what you're saying, is they get hungry and they're like, oh God, you know, it's 7 PM and I'm so hungry, and they fall off the wagon too. So it's about acknowledging that you need to use both of the tools in your toolkit to get you where you want to go, not just choosing a camp and being dogmatic about it.

Exactly. Both camps work. Combine both of them and you have the best of both worlds. You can enjoy food, you can actually have food with your family, you can be healthy, and it all works together. So why the hell not? Alrighty, Mark. So right now I actually want to talk about the culture creation. So we know culture is basically created by human beings over thousands of years, and we are still constantly creating culture. And so basically in, well, in society right now, or in the fitness industry, they are creating a culture of needing to look a certain way and needing to eat a certain way and, yeah, and needing to count calories there. And I find that in Enterprise Fitness, we are creating a culture of healthy eating and looking at food in a very, very good manner there. Having a good relationship with food would be one thing. Hence, we're transforming lives here, not just, you know, giving them results there. So what is your own perspective in that sense about how we're doing here?

Well, you know, I think it started with— it started with me, the founder of Enterprise, and my take on that was, um, I am a healthy person who eats healthy foods that build and nourish my body. Now, as we're talking before about culture to celebrity, That's who I've lived as. That's who I want to be. When I look at my health and fitness, as I relate to health and fitness, it's, it's, it's— that's my fundamental core belief. I'm a healthy person who eats healthy foods that builds and nourishes my body from that identity. So that, that was my big aha moment when I became the bodybuilder and I had to live like a bodybuilder. You know, I put my hand on the Bible, which is supplement, um, bodybuilding magazines, and I'd have my protein shake 3 times a day and my nighttime protein shake and all that kind of rubbish. That's what I was believing and I wanted to change it with something else because I know that with identity you don't just simply get rid of someone's identity, you have to replace the identity and make it something else, something bigger, more exciting, but something that also is sustaining, right? So it can't just be, you know, I'm going to be a champion because you can be a champion but if you, you know, you win the title then you get that what's next. So I realized that my identity needed to be self-perpetuating. I am a healthy person who eats healthy food, foods that build and nourish my body. There is no end date to that. That's not a— like, that is my goal, right? But that goal is something that I live every single day. So from that, yeah, I agree, that is what we try— or succeed at, I should say— that's what we do at Enterprise. It's that core belief. Because when you have that core belief— I'm a healthy person, eats healthy foods that build and nourish my body— you look at food, it's like, all right, well, I'm gonna go out with my friends and the burger has the healthiest version of me. I really want that burger. I want to connect my friends, uh, well, I'm a healthy person. I actually, yeah, I can enjoy that burger because you know what, maybe I'm gonna have a little bit extra calories, but it still builds and still nourishes my body. I'm not gonna overdo it. Um, okay, but if I had maybe 2 burgers, yeah, that's, that's, that's not what the healthiest version of me to do. And so you can make those decisions, right? You can make those decisions and they can be respected, uh, in that. But at the same time, it's like, what are you doing 80, 90%? You're not getting, you're not, you're not overweight, You're not unhealthy because you had a burger with your friends, right? It's like one of the rules that I came up with a long time ago was eat bad food in good company, they'll get fat too, right? So it's, I think, yeah, to your point, that's how I try and live.

Yeah, and just to put it out there, Enterprise Fitness does really well with that. We actually transform lives, we create habits there, which is one of the biggest thing for me to come back here because it's such an amazing change compared to the fitness industry or what you actually see out there. Because what you see out there, well typically, is I'm gonna change your life in terms of giving you a good body composition, but what happens after that? Literally, what happens after that? Over here, what happens is that is they are freaking happy. They have the transformation, they feel good, and then they will always feel good. And you basically change their lives there.

Well, you know, when I was what, 15, I got bitten by the training bug. And it really has kind of become my life's mission to bite everyone. Like for me to be the actual training bug that goes around biting people and getting them infected with the love of training. And they're not like, to that point, right, you know, when people, people have asked me almost in a derogatory way, um, what is a personal trainer? Like what is the role? And fundamentally, that's something I've thought about for over 10 years. Like what is a personal trainer? And the definition that I've actually come to is a personal trainer is there to teach and educate physical culture. So then the next question is, what is physical culture? Physical culture is all things that relate and pertain to physical activity. So it includes nutrition because if you're involved in— and it also includes communication. This is where I think like gyms are the kind of the modern church in a lot of ways because they're the modern community center. Instead of going to a community center, people go to a gym to be physical, to connect with people. That's why a lot of people just love going to gyms. They don't even work out hard. They They just want to talk to people. So I think that's what Enterprise brings in the sense of the reason why we have the success rate that we do in terms of changing people's mindsets is because people come into our environment. You know, this is a culture in and of itself and people buy into it and they realize that, you know, you can look good, you can run a successful business, you can be a high performer and you can go out and eat a burger on the weekend too. It's not a big deal, right? Because you're going to be back in the gym Monday morning training your heart out and doing 9 out of 10 things right. If you do one thing wrong, you know, it's not a big deal. And I think that's what the culture, and that's what we bring here, and that's why so many people fall in love with it. Alrighty, so Marshall, we've got a question on our Instagram. You can ask questions @enterprisefitnessau, or you can ask questions @markottobre on Instagram. We've got this question from Gordon. Gordon asks, if someone is overweight with gut sensitivity, will gut issues go away if on a calorie deficit and losing weight? So not necessarily being on a, on gluten, dairy-free, just a calorie deficit and losing weight. Do you want to open with this?

I think, all right, yes, I will. Uh, I think at that point there, it depends on what they actually have. If they've got SIBO, if they've got a FODMAP problem, or any of those things there, you— all right, a calorie deficit is not enough. It's going to help just a bit there for sure, but you got to address what the actual problem is. If it's FODMAP, they have to get rid of all the fructose oligosaccharides. All right, I can't remember all the, you know, sugars, their type of chains there. But yeah, the calorie deficit is not good enough, to be honest. You actually have to cut off the products that are actually causing them.

Totally agree. Yeah, if you, if you're lactose intolerant or you have gluten sensitivity and you're going on a calorie deficit, you might lose weight, but you're still essentially causing that systemic inflammation and you're also damaging the the gut, which is then putting you further behind the eight ball in terms of not actually utilizing those calories and in terms of recovery. So this is where the thing, you know, you gotta look at the gut and the immune relationship. If your immune system is being triggered, 'cause that's ultimately like the gut is the gateway to your immune system. If you have a compromised gut, then it's making its way into its immune system. Say for like gluten, for example, you're triggering the immune system, you're putting on alarm your antibodies, your lymphocytes, your cytokines to basically create an inflammation response. So again, you can be on calorie deficit, you might lose weight, but you still feel like crap and you'll still be bloated. Uh, so yeah, you have to, you have to address those foods.

Yes. And also there's the thing, you know, that the gut is the second brain, I believe. Like 80% of your serotonin is actually produced from your gut itself there. So if you've got a gut problem and if you actually help, let's say they're gluten intolerant, help them with the gut problem, as well as put them in a caloric deficit, they might actually be more compliant because of that, as in they're producing the right neurotransmitters for the head to actually feel good and like, oh right, I should probably follow this better because I actually feel much better, I'm more clearer, I can actually comply to this.

100%. And also you probably don't have to put them in as such a reduced caloric deficit either. They'd probably be able to eat more food because their gut is better, they're able to digest better, they feel better, they're more active. 'Cause I mean, when you've got a gut issue, I mean, do you feel like going for a run or hitting the weights? No, you don't. You feel like doing, you know, you're conscious, you're self-conscious, you're more self-conscious than what you would normally be. So yeah, I suppose summary on that. Have you got anything further to add?

Nope.

Well, 100%, short answer is calorie deficit's not enough. You need to address the underlying issues. So the next question, Marshall. And you can start with this one. What are your thoughts on intermittent fasting, 8-hour rule, whilst training?

Oh, so okay, I've done intermittent fasting before. I've done a few variety. I've done the 16:8, I've done the 24-hour one before there. And I say that, oh, it's not for everyone, to be honest. A lot of times, you know, intermittent fasting work because of, you know, you're clearing your gut, you actually feel much better, as well as you— yes, your pudding is a bit more IGF or whatsoever there in terms of growth hormone-wise. But I think a lot of times it actually don't work because you overeat when it's actually time to eat there. So I guess the question would be, why are you doing intermittent fasting? What is your actual reason there? Can you go for a different approach which is much better than that?

I totally agree. I think, I think start with why. Someone wrote that book, I think it's called Start With Why. But yeah, start with why, like why intermittent fast. I think 9 times out of 10, the question— the answer is going to be because it's either convenient to my lifestyle or because I heard it's a good way to lose body fat. To which I challenge, you know, both of those notions in the sense that if it's convenient to your lifestyle, you just don't like eating, you know, there are food prep companies that you can get and there are— you can plan out your food of when you're going to eat. That— let's not call it intermittent fasting, let's just call it lifestyle design because I don't think intermittent fasting is the right terminology for that. And with that said, I think there are some studies that you've probably seen them more than I have, and that's with females specifically, intermittent fasting do poorly over males and particularly older males. So if you are training, I think, you know, there is something to be said about nutrient timing, even though maybe it's not the number one factor. Though, you know, if I'm doing a workout, I certainly, you know, having my muscles full of glycogen compared to not full of glycogen is a very different impact. And if I'm, especially if I'm doing strength training, as well. So, you know, it's not just for, for bodybuilding training where you want muscle glycogen. If you're doing heavy lifts, you want a degree of muscle glycogen there, even though you would think, you know, this is more of a neurological activity. So, you know, your 3 reps, for example, it's, it's hugely important. So I'm not a fan of intermittent fasting. It does have some validity and use specifically, as you said, with gut issues, but it's also no good if you're going to eat inflammatory foods after the fast.

Exactly.

You're going to be back to square one and with nothing to show for it. It's not, it's not a free lunch. It's kind of like the keto promise or the fufu macro promise. I think that's what a lot of these diets do, is they promise you can have all the food you want or you can do everything you want with no drawback. Now I think being an adult and being an adult about these things is realizing doesn't matter what your approach is— if you count calories, if it fits your macros, clean eating, keto diet there is a drawback. There is a drawback. So you might think I can eat for not 8 hours. No, there's still going to be a drawback to that, and you just got to accept the game that you're playing. Alrighty, so next question is from Sonia. Can you recommend a good supplement for fat burning for someone who trains consistently?

No, that's it. I think we're done. So cheers. All right, thanks for that.

The amount of people over the years who I've gotten off specific fat burner products that have lost weight like within a week, 2 weeks later. So I suppose let's talk about some of the mechanics of that. I remember I had one girl came to see me and she was on like 3 different fat burners and she was wondering why she couldn't sleep at night. I was like, are you for real? I think she's on like 600 to 800 milligrams of caffeine a day.

That's the thing, it's just because of the caffeine. That's the thing people do not understand, it is because of the caffeine there.

Yeah, but they also, they're also saying smart, they put like a little bit of niacin in most of the fat burners. So you get a little bit of a flush from the B3 flushing. So that's why you feel like, oh, caffeine and a bit of a flush, you feel like it's working, like, oh, I feel more vascular. It's just the niacin, right? You could buy that for like $10. It's not going to help you burn fat. So let's talk about that because a lot of people don't understand what it is. So I mean, you've got your parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system, right? So your parasympathetic is your rest and digest. Your sympathetic is your fight or flight, right? So when you're training, you want sympathetic to be active, right? So when you're training, having a cup of coffee before your training, very, very beneficial into pushing you into that sympathetic drive where you can do your best, right? And also, hopefully, will trigger some cortisol. Cortisol will help mobilize blood glucose. Blood glucose is then gonna be utilized during your training when you're physically active. Now, if you take that substrate, say in this case caffeine, which is guarana in fat burning tablets or whatever it is, in most fat burning tablets, there is some form of stimulant that goes into that fat burning tablet, right? If you have that, let's say, you know, at intermittent times of the day on top of if you're having coffee, let's say it calls for your fat burner to have it at like, I don't know, 6 o'clock. Well, that's gonna, PM that is, you're gonna wanna be start rest and digest. You're gonna wanna be going parasympathetic, right? And now you're boosting that up and having, you're boosting your sympathetic when you wanna be rest and digest. And that's gonna make you harder to sleep, right? Because caffeine also has a half-life and binds with adenosine in your brain. So if you're having, let's say, 100 milligrams at say 6:00 PM, there's what, a 4-hour, 6-hour half-life of caffeine?

I think it goes up to 8 hours.

8 hours. So that means that like 8 hours in, like let's say in the middle of night where you want melatonin to be high.

Yeah, it's 50 milligrams.

You've still got 50 milligrams, you know, left over if you've had 100 milligrams at 6:00 PM. So, yeah, any way you cut it, this isn't good for sleep. And sleep is— if you, I mean, you want one supplement for fat loss, it's sleep. Like, you got it for free, you can do it, you know. Like, the better quality of sleep you're gonna have— if by nothing, like, if I was to recommend one thing that you could do aside from diet and training, right, if you just said do one thing for fat loss, it'd be sleep. Sleep properly. Like, get to bed on time and have 8 hours a night. Bar none. And don't have coffee. And I know these people who say, you know, I can have coffee, fall asleep, it's fine. Well, it's still affecting your sleep because of the adenosine receptors, and it's still bumping you into sympathetic, right? No one is going to get out of that.

And that's the thing, if you can have caffeine and go to sleep, you already have an underlying problem. Your cortisol is completely jacked up, your adrenal glands is completely jacked up to the point where you actually need caffeine to try to function a bit at 12 AM at night and you still fall asleep. That is completely messed up. You probably need to check yourself in terms of seeing how your cortisol is going as well as, you know, your circadian rhythm. Are you producing enough melatonin to achieve function, actually be well itself there?

Yeah, so the other thing they do in a lot of fat loss formulas is they put like tyrosine. And again, tyrosine is an amino acid that's going to boost dopamine in the brain. So if you're having it at night or having it during the day, what this can do for some people is they get quite— they get anxious when they have fat burning. Like I know that many people who they come in and like, I'm taking these fat burners. I go, are you anxious? Yeah. How'd you know? I'm like, well, this has got like, you know, tyrosine and this in it and this in it and B vitamins, just ramping that, those pathways of dopamine. And this is where people think like dopamine, dopamine, I need dopamine. Most people like already don't have a problem with dopamine, right? Some people do. Some lazy people do. They need more dopamine. But if you're a, if you're an A performer, if you're an A+ player, if you're already got like a business and you're hustling and hustling hard, whatever, you probably don't have a problem with dopamine. You probably actually need to settle that and get into what's an optimal range because there's always a bell curve, right? So if you push that, you push it to the point of anxiousness, and that's not a place that you want to be in terms of performance because anxiousness is going to actually impede your performance, not actually increase it. With that said, there are some things fat burning-wise like berberine.

Yes, yohimbine. Yes, yes, there's research for that too, specifically for stubborn body fat. But then the thing is, you know, all right, so at the end of the day, fat burning supplements, there are some, but you gotta sort your diet out first. Sort your diet out and let your sleep go really well, and you most probably just lose fat by itself there. So there's no point of investing extra cash or any extra, you know, money itself there just to amp yourself up, really.

Yeah, well, I suppose an eloquent way to do fat loss supplements is to optimize biochemistry. So it's really then about looking at like, what is your insulin status? Or how insulin sensitive are you? Can we influence that? But it's also like, how much carbs are you having? Because there's no point really influencing someone's insulin sensitivity if they're not eating any carbs. 'Cause like, if I'm gonna have like, say berberine for example, or one of the glucose disposal—

Alpha-lipoic acid.

Yeah, exactly, right? Like alpha, all these things. Like, I'm not going to just have it and just not eat carbs.

Oh, you're going to pass out?

Yeah, I'm going to have it, I'm going to eat a whole bunch of carbs so that way I can get those carbs into the muscle, right? So it's going to increase my insulin sensitivity to then utilize those carbohydrates so my body can uptake them and work better, essentially. So I'm getting more bang for buck. So the other thing is, like, if you look at cortisol, people are stressed all the time. If you're, if you're struggling with body fat because you're stressed, well then the supplement regime is going to be different. It's going to be things like vitamin C or adrenal herbs.

You might even go adaptogens.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So that's going to help with stress, but by side effect, you're going to get a fat loss result. So I suppose in summary on this one, there's almost never a case— I don't think there's ever a case where I ever give someone a fat loss, fat loss supplement. Yeah, I'm giving them things to support function hormonally, whether it be—

or fix foundations.

Yeah, correct. Support the foundation. With the supplements. There's no fat loss supplement.

Yeah.

Nice jacket, Mr. Marshall.

Thank you very much.

Almost as nice as the conversation we've had this last couple hours or whatever it was. Had a great conversation. Thank you for your time. Where can the folks at home find you?

Well, my Instagram handle is @that.mr.tan.

Yeah. Now, the feedback that consistently gets given to you about your Instagram is that you have a voice like chocolate and you wake up and you just relax people with your story. So if you are an Instagrammer, make sure you check out Mr. Tan, Mr. Tan.

No, it's— oh, let me say it again. It's that.mr.tan.

So I just pretended to get it wrong so I could hear you talking.

Oh, okay, cool.

That's all it was.

Yeah.

So I suppose in summary, folks, Marshall and I over this episode, we've gotten into a few different nutrition topics. We both have had a lot of unique and personal experiences in this field, and I suppose, you know, at the end of the day, this is a little bit of a landmine, nutrition, and you do sometimes need a Sherpa, if you will, a little guide to guide you through the, the jungle that can be confusion and can be the landmines. And if you're in a bad place with your nutrition, or you're not maybe in a bad place, you want to optimize, or you just woke up after this crazy world, this crazy lockdown, and thought you know, I need to, I need to get myself healthy. Like, if not now, when? If not me, who? I need to get myself healthy. I need to do something. I need this. I want to look in the mirror, feel that confidence inside and out. I want to glow, and I want to share special something with the world. Get in contact with us. We can definitely help you. This is what we do for a living. This is what I feel I've been put on the planet to do. I know it's what you feel you've been put on the planet to do. You get in contact with me @MarkOttobre. Of course, you can get contact at Enterprise. Enterprise Instagram is Enterprise Fitness AU. Shoot us an email at info@enterprisefitness.com.au. Subscribe to us if you're watching this on YouTube, just hit that button below. Really appreciate this. If you're on our iTunes, please leave us a review. Get the word out, share this episode with your friends. If you want more from us, as I said, folks, we are at Enterprise Fitness in Richmond, Melbourne, Victoria. Folks, it's been my pleasure Until next time, train hard, eat well, and supplement smart.