S6:E10 - Rethinking Exercise Science for Better Results

Maybe you're injured. Maybe you want to next level your results. You've been looking through Googles to find the very best advice that you can, and you've probably stumbled across exercise science. In this episode, we are going to be unpacking why exercise science or exercise scientists won't give you the results or are falling short of giving you the results. I am joined here today by Matthew Crooks, also known as Crooksie. And Ari Otis, the Mr. Ari. Now Ari, this is an interesting episode because you have an exercise science degree and you're going to be talking about some interesting stuff. And by no means are we paying out and bagging exercise scientists, but what we did— if I set up the frame of how we're going to be discussing this— is what we did want to discuss is a lot of folks go to exercise scientists. I know you've worked as a client with exercise scientists and you haven't gotten the results that you've you've set out to get, and you've done your exercise science degree. And we actually have— we've had quite a few exercise scientists either work at Enterprise or currently working, like you, Jacka, I think a few others who have their exercise science degree. But what I have found is that when you guys particularly apply the philosophies, techniques that we, you know, use here at Enterprise Fitness, you guys get next level results. Whereas on its own, it has maybe a limited or more limited application to things. So I think probably where we should start is what is an exercise scientist and what do you see as the role of an exercise scientist in terms of fitness, strength training, rehabilitation?

So an exercise science degree essentially covers most bases in terms of exercise programming, exercise delivery, nutrition, anatomy, exercise physiology, sports psychology even. It sets that foundation for being able to further pursue studies in any of those areas. I know in my experience when I was studying exercise science, I'd probably say the two most common fields that people would go into if they were looking to continue their studies onwards from an exercise science degree would be physiotherapy or exercise physiology and strength and conditioning. Within that, you can choose whether you want to have a little bit more of a focus on, say, sports nutrition, sports psychology, or even sports business if you're looking to add more of the business or management.

You kind of look at it as like almost like a gateway drug to other modalities.

Absolutely right.

So it's not a be-all end-all. Now, Matty, you've, you've worked like— you've basically professional soccer player, right?

Or semi-pro?

Yeah, semi-pro. I'll talk you up, mate, it's fine. Professional, professional Professional soccer player, guys.

By the way, that's one level above Jimmy as well.

Shout out to Jimmy. Now, um, so you've, you've worked with a lot of exercise physiologists, and I think you've had injuries. Do you want to talk about like your experience working with exercise physiologists?

Look, I, I've had—

athlete—

yeah, um, I've had a good experience with them, um, even when I was back playing in Brisbane, um, when I was with Brisbane Roar for the youth team. And even Adelaide United with the youth team, I was fine, right, with them. It was perfectly fine. I think from a standpoint, it was more, um, load management. Um, I think—

explain.

So when I was at Brisbane, it was— so when I got called up to train with the A-League team, so with the professional team, we were training 5 days a week with them, and then we were doing like a match day minus 1, which is technically like a lighter volume session the day before your game, but intensity still stays the same, just to keep the intensity prior to your session, uh, before your game. Sorry. So I was training with them plus gym 2-3 times a week, and I actually strained my quad. So that's 5 days a week with them. Whereas you looked at the, the men's team, like the, the A-League team, the youth boys were training 6 days a week. The youth— the men's team, the they were training like 4 or 5, and then gym twice. Like, I was rocking up to training at like 8 AM and not getting home until 5 PM. And I think we're getting paid— for youth players, you get paid in the youth league, you get paid $60 for the week. So like, growing up through that, that was where I struggled. And then now it's sort of like a similar thing. Like, so I work here obviously at Enterprise. It's a demanding job. Like you're walking around from like 5 till 3 picking up weights, like not lightweights, heavyweights all day, and then you go to, say for instance, my football, but then you've got gym on top of that. All three are very demanding. You've got to have a time and space for recovery. Um, now does that mean I work less? Does that mean I do less in the gym? Does that mean I drop my football down? It's got to be one's got to give because the load management in terms of all of that is too much.

You're saying that the exercise physiologist that you work with didn't really pay enough care and attention to your lifestyle?

I think it was more like— I spoke about this with James because our sessions at the moment, they're good, they are good sessions, and you did them. I've learned a lot through doing it with my, um, with my trainer. I've learned a lot. However, that being said, it's like you've also got to remember I'm only semi-pro, I'm not professional. So it's not like my main source of income is football, my main source of income is PT.

Now, why is that relevant though in terms of things? Are you saying that because they're just— they're not considering the failure of this particular— say, is just simply just giving you too much load? Yeah, well, like, not respective, but is that— is that a failure of exercise physiology or is that a failure of this particular coach?

Well, it's like here we have our session 1, right? We understand the client, so that's where we get the main knowledge from them and understand them. Now, I don't know if it's you trying to fit— in terms of when they do their programming, they try and fit too much in one session. Like, I know my sessions were going for like— I think I was conventional deadlifting in the off-season, um, and I was doing well with it, but it was like Man, like I was saying, because me and James, for example, we're doing like— I think I got 150 for 4, and I think James was getting like 170, 180 or something like that for his deads. Now you look at that and that's pretty fucking heavy loads, like it's a decent amount of load. But if you look at the average athlete, they probably weren't lifting that, as in terms of like— you'll see people that were training there, it's like, okay, they don't need to take 3 minutes rest, 4 minutes rest. I mean, it's like, well, yeah, exactly.

This is, is exactly— sorry if I just interrupt for a sec. This is exactly kind of what I'm getting at with exercise physiology, because this has been my observation over the years. As I said, we had had quite a few exercise physiologists who've come through, is that it's almost like what is learned in theory is so far removed to application of principle. And it is principles that are scaled up and scaled down where people— what I see often when they learn from a university or textbook And I mean, this isn't just a, I suppose, an exercise physiologist, but in every industry, people try to apply techniques and they try and understand techniques. So let's say, for example, whether it's an 8x8 system or a 6x12 or a wave loading system, they say, well, this technique, and they get really good at the technique, but this technique's not what matters. It's the principles behind the technique that matter. And if you can scale the principle, so for example, let's say if what I'm trying to go for with you, let's say, is to adapt your body or get your body ready to handle submax loads. So that's where I might use, say, a wave loading, but I don't have to use wave loading. I could, I could do that in many different ways. But it does seem to me that the exercise physiology, specifically people coming out of exercise physiology, they don't always have— they've got a good understanding of the theory, but they don't have the practical implementation and understanding. Would you agree with that from your end?

I would agree. I think the important thing here is to relate it back to the original question of this podcast, and that's relating it back to the client and the client looking to get a result and where they should turn to, to get that result, whether they should turn to a personal trainer or look to someone of a specific profession within somewhere that they've— someone that's graduated from an exercise science degree? And look, the answer is always going to be, it depends, right? It will depend on whether the client's issue is specifically related to training, nutrition, whether they have a specific injury, whether rehab is the focus, or whether they need a combination of all of those things, right? And I imagine the question that is going to arise from a lot of people listening to this is going to be Well, is there a one-stop shop for all of these issues?

Enterprise.

Enterprise, exactly.

Well, I suppose that's what I want to get to, right, is the fact that I see a lot of folks, again, coming from unis, they come in and because we get them interning with us and then we show them the way we screen and how much quicker, more effective, how much more information we can get, how much more usable, how much more meaningful it is to the client. And then relating that screen, and it is, I gotta say, and you know, this is a reflection I suppose of sometimes the students that come in, is, you know, that screening process you did, you do realize that directly correlates to the program you're going to write them. And for the students coming in, they don't, they don't make that link. They really don't. They do the assessment as if it's an isolated assessment, not realizing that that assessment informs and is the data that writes the program for the client. They do the assessment almost like a checklist, like a technique. I'm just doing this because I'm like the guy my professor told me to do this, and now I write your program. Well, you could just write the program if you're not going to really like screen them and observe what they're actually doing and ask questions and try and think through it like a detective and then come up with solutions for the exercise. Much in the way like my mentor in this, you know, Professor Andrew Locke, for sure he's Amazing, and rewriting really much of the book on exercise physiology and rehabilitation physiotherapy. But I do think the, the unis are leaving a lot to be desired, which does translate to that client who doesn't get that practical experience.

Yeah, I agree with that. So I did 2 trimesters of exercise science. I didn't do the whole shebang because I started here, and the difference was the practical side of what I didn't get at university. And plus it was COVID when I was doing it, but like doing it online was just not the same as most likely going into uni. Um, but I totally agree with what you're saying in terms of the practical side. Um, but it comes back to his question as well, and it sort of depends on what they want and what the client is looking for. Yeah, I think that's the biggest question as well.

But I suppose even on that, depending on what they want, is they could— if it is rehabilitation, you'd think going to a physio would give you that, would What I found as well a lot of the time is that the principles just aren't applied. So you're going to add something to this?

I was just going to add to what Matt said because he's raised an excellent point. I think it's not important to relate it to perhaps someone looking to— either someone looking to consider studying exercise science or looking to be a PT. Matt's made an excellent point because you're— you were already in a job, had a career when you went to study exercise science. Right? I think if you're— you already have a clear idea of what exact profession or what exact field within that that you're looking to go into, perhaps studying an exercise science degree isn't going to be the most streamlined avenue of doing so. But if you still perhaps— if you're like myself and you didn't have an exact idea of what field within exercise science you're looking to go into and you're looking to figure it out along the way and then end up sort of falling into PT the way that I did, Oh my God, we need to discuss you sliding into my DMs in another podcast and how I started here. We're doing this now?

Yeah, let's do it.

We're doing this now. All right, so this is how I started at Enterprise. I was interning at Six Principle Gym in Moorabbin. Shout out to the Six Principle Gym, fantastic place, doing amazing things and doing fantastic work with a new venue as well. I was interning there looking for a place to work fresh out of uni, and I had just set up my fitness Instagram account. Aside from my personal account, I was already following Mark and Enterprise at the time, and in doing so, when I was setting up my fitness account, I followed all the same accounts. Mark saw that this PT account or this fitness account had followed him And Mark was looking for people at the time to work at Enterprise and threw the Hail Mary and decided to ultimately flick me a DM and say, hey, I'm Mark from Enterprise, what's going on?

Did he set you up for dinner?

Absolutely not, I wish. Um, sent me a text, sent me a DM saying, hey, we're looking for trainers, uh, this is what we do, if you're interested feel free to send through your application. I'm like, oh wow. It's the Mark Ottobre, the Enterprise. No harm in doing so. Flick my application through, say, hey, why don't you come in for a chat? I came in for a chat. I remember it was like a 34-degree day. It was scorching. And James hired you instantly. Came down, sat down, have a chat, and the rest, as they say, is history. But yes, that is how I started Enterprise. Mark Ottobre, ladies and gentlemen, slid into my DMs.

Yes, I certainly did slide into the DMs.

You got COVID in your first week, yeah?

Yeah, I did.

Yeah.

What a star. I remember James and I were both injured interviewing you, and James didn't even look at me. He's like, yeah, let's just hire you.

I'm like, don't even ask.

He didn't even ask. He didn't even look at me. He's just like, we're hiring this guy. Um, so back to— that's the story. That's the, the—

sorry, we could have— I opened that can of worms.

There's no way to go there. That's, that's, that's the origins of, of, you know, Ari. Um, your origins— he did an internship. But anyway, point being, if we get back to this, my origins of of starting was working with the late and great Charles Poliquin. And Charles, you know, definitely just such an interesting guy, amazing knowledge, genius level, really always about practical, does it make my clients stronger, does it make them faster? I think he trained and he helped clients win over 800 Olympic gold medals. So, you know, the wealth of experience, but he was always of the mindset, which I am, which, you know, the Krav Maga mindset, which was a punch to the throat is always going to be better than a spinning roundhouse back kick. And what we meant by that is a punch to the throat gets them on the floor straight away. And, you know, it's quite the visual. Spinning roundhouse back kick, you know, looks nice and fancy. And that's often the way when I see people who come in with, you know, degrees and all this kind of stuff, they over-engineer, they overcomplicate things, whereas that punch to the throat does the job much faster, much more efficient. So For me, my strength training principles was always about let's screen you, let's see dysfunction, let's use the exercises to address those dysfunctions. And then that's your first 4-week block. Let's again screen. So everything in terms of sport would have an indicator lift. So for example, if you're a soccer player, an indicator lift could be, let's say, your front squat, right? It could be a power clean if you can do power cleans, but certainly a front squat would be one of them. As a soccer player, I probably would add an upper body indicator lift, probably incline press. So then bichromial grip, right? Because it's more aligned to where you're going to be running in that. And obviously when you're running, there is that transition of force to upper and lower. So you're using those indicator lifts as you go forward. So when you start up an athlete, let's say you've met in this case, let's say you start your front squat, it's, you know, your first 1RM is 80 kilos, right? Well, then the question is, if I can get you from 80 kilos to 120 kilos, then obviously a stronger athlete is always going to be a better athlete. All skills. So basically the principle is if you have two athletes, same skill level, and one is stronger, the stronger athlete's always going to be better. They're going to get injured less. And in almost every ball sport, the person who's first to the ball is the one who earns the most money. The first one is first to the ball, who controls, right? Um, so the idea is then to get people strong, powerful, so you can be the one who's first to the ball. And when James started back in, what, 2004, 14. Um, I took him— I trained James personally— I took him from 77 kilos, 76 kilos to 88 kilos in about 18 months. And I use the principles of the indicator lift, and front squat was definitely one of them. And he, you know, he added 10 kilos of lean mass. And he said to me the biggest thing that improved that he was much faster, much faster to the ball. He was able to outmaneuver people. He was, you know, big for a soccer player, But that's where the principles for me came from. And I didn't— I haven't done my exercise science degree, but I certainly teach a lot of people who have done exercise science degree. And I feel like the difference between what I've learned from practical in-the-trenches working with very, very high-level coaches and working with very, very high-level athletes is I have to deliver, otherwise I don't get paid. And I've got to deliver on a result, so everything has to be result-oriented. And I've got to say, you know, I'll never piss on your leg and tell you it's rain, right? So there has to be a result there. And what I found, like, working with Andrew Maloney, won Commonwealth Games gold— the indicator lift we used for boxing was a chin-up and incline bi-chromial bench press. When he went to the Commonwealth Games, they used the IIS strength indicator test of a flat bench press, right? So I got him in training with me, which we used a very strict 4-second tempo, so 4 seconds down, 1 second up. He went from, I think it was about 42 kilos. I've got to look at my records, but it's about 42 kilos when we started on his incline press. And in that time, I think we ended up at about 57.5 kilos that he benched for one rep on an incline press. When he went to testing on his flat press, he did 70 kilos for 3 reps on his flat press, right? The AIS. And this was the confidence of him going into the Commonwealth Games, because what we found was in his weight class, which was what, 52 kilos, super flyweight. The person who was closest to him in his weight class was 55 kilos. He benched 70 kilos. They looked at his level, he was benching what 81-kilo boxers were benching. So this is where the application of, say, the indicator lifts for specific athletes— your confidence goes, well, I know I'm going to be the strongest guy on the field. Like, I know I've got that. I might not be the most talented, right? I might not be whatever, but I know I'm definitely going to be the strongest. And when he went into the ring, he knew he was— there was no one as strong as him. And he won Commonwealth Games gold. He's now professional. He's won his world title. Um, so that's how I've used it. So coming back to this, I think really, like, you know, the advice— I suppose if it is any advice, it's look at those regardless of credentials and all this kind of stuff— is who is producing the result. But I always find, like, if you gave me two trainers and you said this one has an exercise science degree and this one doesn't, I'd prefer the one with the exercise science degree. Because I do find, like, it is— it's definitely, like, it's— as I said, it's definitely not a, um, a sludge on the degree or anything like that. Definitely the degree is helpful because it does give you that base. And I have noticed that people do take on information a lot more because of that theory component behind it. And then when you add in all the practical stuff that we do here at Enterprise like guys like you, Jacko, etc., just saw, saw through it. Things that you want to add?

I was going to ask you actually, if now you said about the stronger athlete getting to the ball before the other athlete, I agree with what you're saying. That being said, you also want to think like, say for instance, like me and James, James is stronger than me and this is where we looked on like in terms of like his power. So he's going to be able to create more power output, right? Do you reckon an athlete can get too strong that it can increase their chances of injuries?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

So there is a test for that, right? So like, I use the example of your eccentric to concentric strength. So it's easier to get a fast athlete strong than a strong athlete fast, right? So number one. Number two is you do want to have a ratio of eccentric to concentric, which then is an indicator to how fast an athlete would be. So let's say, for example, your best squat is 100 kilos, okay? If you can handle, say, 40%, so 140 kilos for an 8-second eccentric, you are too strong for how fast you— you mean, meaning your strength development. So if you can handle eccentrically 40% more, because eccentrically you're always going to be stronger, right? But let's say your absolute max is 40% of what— so 140 kilos you can handle eccentrically, you're too strong at that point. You need to work on power. If it's about 20%, that's about right. And if it's below that, say you're at 10%, you're probably too weak. So as in your eccentric strength to concentric strength. So for those at home listening to this, your eccentric strength is the lowering portion of the movement. Your concentric strength is the pushing portion of the movement. So in this case, on your front squat, if you can only handle, if you can, if you can, or even squat, if you can squat 100 kilos but eccentrically for 8 seconds you can only handle 110, you're too weak. If you can handle 120, you're about right. Anything more than that, well, you're probably too strong as an athlete. Now, you might go through cycles. I mean, the absolute king of this is Charlie Francis, right? So he trained Ben Lewis, Ben Johnson, Canadian sprinter who got done for doping, but they're all taking stuff, right? Anyway, he wrote the book The Strength Trap. Um, so that— I mean, he's the absolute, you know, master. He had so many freakishly powerful athletes who were just jacked and strong, steroids or drugs aside. His training methods were for strength and power development. So yes, I do agree. What has also been found emphatically in studies is that the more muscle mass you have, the less likely you are to get injured. So we know, like, emphatically muscle mass is preventative for injuries. And if you're a soccer player and you're income you know, is dependent upon that. It serves you to have muscle mass as a protective means of not injuring yourself, number one. But just like everything else, I mean, I had a guy, I forget his name, Josh Bryant, I think, the hammer thrower. He spoke about when he got his strongest, that's when he was also his worst at hammer throwing, which makes sense because it's, you know, the pyramid of specialization at the top. If you get really specialized at one thing, it, it obviously takes away from general function. And if you've got a complicated, say, skill, or say soccer, if you get super— the goal isn't to get better at squatting, the goal is to get better at soccer, the goal is to be good at the ball. So it always has to be the main thing.

Yeah, no, I, I was just thinking in terms of my case as well, because look, I'm not super strong, but I've got a lot stronger from when I first started here. Like, I've put on, I think, 8-9 kilos from when I first started here to where I'm at now. And I'm like, I've had more injuries like now than I've had in the last, what, probably like 3, 4 years. So that's why I always go back to myself and I'm like, am I doing— is it— and that goes back to what I was saying before in terms of like load management. Is it one of those things where it's okay, it's my load management outside of football? Is it in the gym? Or is it, you know, um, am I doing too much? Those type of things. Am I too strong but not powerful enough?

Like Specifically for injury prevention, for what I'd look at someone like yourself is the ratios. So if the squat is 100% of your indicator lift, then things like your hamstring should be at around like, uh, 80— I think it's 88%. I've got to look at the chart, but in the Poliquin Institute, we have got, you know, the exact percentages of what are the right percentages. Because you're absolutely right, you can be too strong in some areas that essentially create dysfunction. So if you are too strong in, say, the quad, then it is going to create more tension through the hamstring. So the hamstring has to have equal amount of strength. So It could potentially be disproportionate development, potentially. And the best way to, to, to know is to, to run those tests. And that's how, like, say with James, for example, and Andrew Maloney, when I was doing their stuff, I'd continually look at the ratios of where are we at to make sure that things like that aren't— our ratios are constantly being respected. Because if we do get too strong in one area, then it can lead to dysfunction.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, 100%.

Mr. Ari, I think the best piece of advice I can give for someone who is either considering studying exercise science or is wondering whether they need exercise science to, say, work as a PT— I guess this applies to any field of work, but especially in the context of being a PT, in my experience— is not to be— if you do study exercise science, not to then become complacent and believe and think that essentially you've got all the knowledge that you need to then apply to your profession. That sets the foundation. You still want to be educating yourself on top of that, still doing courses, doing seminars, asking questions, and building on whatever profession you're in and working specifically towards that. I think what exercise science does fantastically is set that foundation. So what I've found in my experience is a lot of what I've done in my exercise science degree, I don't apply directly from what I've learned, say, to the floor and to my clients. But if I am expanding my knowledge, learning something or reading about something, it's often not the first time that I'm reading about that thing, whether it's to do with nutrition, whether it's to do with programming, exercise delivery and prescription, or biology, anatomy, anything of those sorts. I think another thing as well as being able to read research is a fantastic skill. Probably the best skill I would say that you learn at uni is a fantastic thing. So it sets a foundation, but you still need to build upon that, whether it's PT or whether it's any other field that you're looking to continue on from. After studying exercise science. And always remembering, in any especially practical field, there's never going to be a better teacher than experience, practical experience, and practicing applying what it is that you do know. Nothing is ever going to top that.

Well, Ari, I think that's a great place, a great summary in fact, of the podcast and a great place to, to wrap this episode up. So, uh, where can people find you?

People can find me In the Four Walls of Enterprise, or on Instagram at Coach.ario.

And Mr. Matty, where's your Instagram at?

Instagram, Matt Crooks PT, and then, uh, 301 Swan Street. Swan Street. Strong Street. 305 Strong Street. Strong Street.

Strong Street. Strong Street. Uh, my name is Mark Ottobre, owner and founder of Enterprise Fitness. You can find me at Mark Ottobre on Instagram and TikTok. If you've enjoyed this episode and want to hear more from us, make sure you subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to, whether it's iTunes. What's the other one? YouTube. And that other thing, Spotify. That's the one. And if you want to go more inside of the theories, techniques, systems that we have here, I highly recommend you check out our book, The Enterprise Diet, which you can purchase at enterprise-diet.com. Till next time, folks, till next episode, train hard, eat well, and supplement smart.