S6:E12 - Transform from ”Skinny Fat” to Fit in 12 Weeks or Less

Welcome to the show that punches you in the face with information, but in a good way. Welcome to the Enterprise Fitness Podcast. In this episode, we are going to be talking about the skinny fat cure. So you might be not in the greatest shape right now. How do you go from where you are now to absolutely transforming your physique rapidly in 12 weeks or less? Today I am joined by master coach Jacka and Enterprise coach Aldred. Aldred. He hates the way I pronounce his name.

Always gets it wrong.

Always gets it wrong. Welcome boys to the show. This is your first running with the Enterprise Podcast. Yes. Yes. So it's great to have you both here. So let's talk about the Skinny Fat Cure. I know both of you have done some pretty amazing transformations. Al, do you want to kick us off with some things that you do with your clients that, like, how do you approach this?

It depends on, like you said, right? And you told this to me ages ago. About the context, like where are they starting from essentially? Because a plan for someone might not be a great plan for someone else. So when we talk about skinny fat, the way I approach it is, are you on the more skinnier side? Therefore you might actually— might just start maintenance for a good 2 phases, 3 phases.

Or do you—

are you more on the skinny fat side and then you start more of a deficit?

Well, I think it's probably a good thing we should probably define. I'm looking at you for definitions, Jacka, but how would you define skinny fat?

How I define it? So when I have someone come to me and they, I suppose, self-diagnose themselves as skinny fat, typically what they're referring to is they don't have enough muscle mass whereby their arms and legs look quite skinny. Um, but if they would say take their shirt off and look at their midsection, they would have a fair bit of, say, belly fat. Right, and so the conundrum in that instance is if I get leaner and try and prioritize losing my belly fat, I'm gonna get skinnier, but I'm already skinny. Versus if I were to say try and focus on building muscle mass and say put myself in a bit of a surplus of some form, I'm only gonna get possibly a bit bigger in the midsection. So where do I go from there?

I knew you were the right person to ask the definition. That's a great definition. But the physique eye always comes to mind. Actually said it to me once was, um, it's the bowling pin physique. Yeah, so that's the visual where it's the tummy is fat but the arms are skinny, so we want to jack them up. So how would you begin someone on with that type of body? Yeah, so like, are they more skinny side or the more fat side?

Yeah, look, I think to extend what Al was saying, I think that is a large component of just looking at how they are visually. Yes, they may benefit from potentially getting leaner first, but I think if someone does present with leaning towards that, I guess, holding more body fat percentage, it has to be prefaced that as they get leaner and potentially diet down first, they're not necessarily going to look any better because overall their weight is going to come down, body fat will come down, midsection will come down, but in the shirt they might look even skinnier. So I think it's important to preface that if someone does have the goal to get leaner first, it will take some time before they look better or even bigger. Um, but I think even taking a step back from whether we are starting with someone from an energy balance perspective, whether we diet down or build them up first, I think even taking a step back and looking at what they're doing wrong that has resulted in the way their physique is at the moment. Maybe they're not doing the simple things like just hitting their protein targets.

Yeah, I say, I say that a lot, like with a lot of competitors. A lot of people say, I want to do a show, and I said, if I was to clip click my fingers and get you lean, ready for a show right now, you'd just look skinny. You wouldn't be able to do a show with the amount of muscle that you could do it. Obviously, it's the, you know, anyone can do whatever, but you wouldn't look the way you'd want to look on stage unless we spend 12 months, maybe some people, actually developing some muscle to make your physique fill out. The other thing I find almost synonymously with a skinny fat physique, and I'm interested if you guys find the same thing, is simply keeping almost sometimes their macro— their calories the same, but getting them to eat enough protein. It's almost synonymous. The skinny fat physique never eats enough protein, always very stressed. The 3 things: never eats enough protein, stressed, and doesn't sleep enough. Do you find these things consistent?

Yeah, what I've found with my skinny fat clients is, yeah, like you said, not enough protein, super high in carbs, super high in fats. Super processed diet and essentially just the body is just super, super stressed, super, super inflamed. And yeah, that's it.

That's it. No, I agree.

I think also the irregularity of eating. So not having— I guess on top of having low protein, there isn't being consumed in intervals that would benefit from that recomposition, right? Like when we experience that someone is eating at maintenance and we just shift their macros to a more favorable way, Part of that is getting more protein more regularly throughout the day, not just say in one big lump sum, right? Because we know that protein throughout the day is more beneficial compared to say just the same amount in one or two meals. So I think that would be a big pillar of why beginners who have that physique will experience recomposition. And on top of just getting in the gym for often the first time with proper training, it's a novel stimulus. So that is quite a strong recipe for changing at maintenance.

Yes. You two guys are known at Enterprise for being quite technical, tactical, detailed orientated. Al, I believe in a former life you were a spreadsheet. Yeah, if anyone thinks like they're good at spreadsheets, Al is just next level. But I digress. This is called the Skinny Fat Keto, this podcast. I want to get into some tactical things that the folks listening to this at home or in their car can implement almost right away, right? I'll paint a picture. Let's say skinny fat, let's say they're about 22 to 25% body fat at the moment. They're maybe about like 73 to 80 kilos. Let's say they're male. Let's say they're average height around that, I don't know, let's say 5 foot 8, 5 foot 11.

I suppose that's average, average.

I had to rub that in for you two guys. I was a bit tall, but kind of a bit tallish, let's say tallish. So that's their physique that they're sitting at. What are our first go-to's? What comes to mind, we've already touched on it, is getting their protein What are we looking at in terms of their protein?

What I like to do is just start— it also depends on the starting point, right? If you're not consuming enough protein, optimally 2 times body weight, 2 grams of protein per body weight is optimal if you want to get that initial recomposition. But if you're eating bare minimum, maybe just like 1.5, and then gradually increasing it to 2, and then 2.4.

So we're saying around 150 to 180 grams of protein per day? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Split up in what, 5 meals, 6 meals, 4 meals?

150 grams of protein per day? Yeah, yeah, I'd say 4, 4 or 5.

Yep. Yeah. Alrighty. And what are we doing with their carbs, Jacko?

I would be prioritizing those around the training windows. Peri-workout nutrition or pre-training nutrition and post-training nutrition. Just for pre-training, to of course enhance their training performance, which we know will be the strong stimulus for actually driving muscle growth and body recomposition. And post-training, because it's just when they're most receptive to carbohydrates, so their insulin sensitivity will be quite high, and so it's a good opportunity to maximize the nutrition that they are getting in.

For a beginner, would you use like intra-workout carbs? Um, not really, not really.

Me personally, I think that there are bigger rocks to attack And I think again, when they're starting, it's like how much intensity is being present in the session if they're complete newbies.

So the lion's share of their carbs, you're saying you'd have it pre and post?

Yeah, as fundamentally as a principle. I think it would also depend in the context of how much carbs they have to begin with, and they'll go back to the question of whether we are starting at maintenance or in an energy deficit.

Do you start at— do you start at maintenance? Do you start a deficit? How do you go approach it? I personally, I always start— I like to be as close— it always ends up being a deficit just because the disparity I usually find between what someone is eating and their actual maintenance is already very large. And to simply get them up to maintenance straight away, it's too much food for them as a habit and as a lifestyle and just to consume. They're not used to— and I always use the analogy of if I was to bring you to maintenance today, it's like me saying, hey, there's the bar, let's squat 200 kilos on day 1. Your body's not prepared for that. You're going to crush and hurt yourself, right? I think it's the same thing with your digestion, nutrition. People want to do it overnight. So I'm always technically— people are starting in a deficit, although I am trying to move them towards maintenance. How do you guys begin?

Yeah, I always start very conservatively because not everyone is eating the right amount of whole foods, specifically like veggies, protein derived from meat sources and not processed foods. I lost my train of thought. Meat sauce.

Well, you give them to Lewis. Lewis is the vegan.

Lewis is trying to—

hey, if he's watching this, he'd be like, Lewis is the vegan. He's not the vegan. He's just— have you ever heard him talk about vegan protein sources? It's just like an encyclopedia of vegan protein sources. I'm like, man, you know a lot about vegan proteins. And he's, yeah, he's had a lot of vegan clients. He has. Vegan protein knowledge is first rate. It's actually asking about vegan protein, it's really He's really— we've got to do an episode with him.

Might have to tickle his brain a little bit later.

Yeah, I thought you were about to say you're going to tickle his balls.

Yeah, back to what I was saying. So just, I always start a bit conservatively. It just depends on what the person can handle. It's, yeah, like you said, it usually ends in a deficit anyway, but the initial goal is always based around why did that person come to me in the first place. Do you want to build size, or do they just want to lose a little bit of belly fat? And then from then on, I built the plan.

And you, Jack, are you starting definitely the same as what we've—

similar? I would lean more towards like yourself as well, in terms of there might be the intention to ideally start in maintenance, but again, with the transition of foods that we're going to be reintroducing or introducing, it's— it can be like a lot of food volume. I think when— first and foremost, I think the most important thing is building that foundation of health. So If someone is having already body composition aside, like the skinny fat question, it's more amount of, okay, this energy is lacking, stress and so forth. Can we address those things? And whatever nutrition best aligns with that first is also a priority. Because if I can get them, say, stabilizing the energy, eating more regularly, and it happens to be at maintenance or slightly below, I think the most important thing is that I get them feeling good. Because from that, training performance is going to be better. But yeah, if I could start— so I do something like maintenance just because it's a very healthy position for the body to be in, especially because there are so many moving pieces initially. And really, again, with a newbie, everything they touch turns to gold.

And fats, where are we starting with fats? We're going 0.8, 0.8, yeah, 1.2, 1. Usually I start at 1, tend to go the higher side.

Yeah, 1.

And training, that's the thing I find that's gonna probably change a lot for them. How do we approach their training? Personally, I always start with every client with a structural balance, ironing out the creases, so to speak. 'Cause if there is dysfunction, dysfunction's always the first thing that I attack because that's gonna be their ceiling of how far, whether they're an Olympic athlete, Commonwealth Games gold medalist, world champion, or they've never been to the gym before, I'm always looking for the dysfunction 'cause I find the dysfunction piece is gonna be the thing that just accelerates everything else so much faster. With that said, if someone has no dysfunction, for me, I would love to give a skinny fat client an 8x8. Lots and lots of volume, lots and lots of tension under the muscle. That's like my go-to. And if they're, if they've been training a while, but usually your skinny fat clients haven't, but an 8x8, I really, I love that type of style of high intensity dense program. And for those who don't know, 8x8, 8x8 is basically Vince Gironda method where you do 8 sets of 8 reps. Obviously if you're a beginner, you're gonna end up with lots of soreness. So I wouldn't give it to a beginner. It'd be more that intermediate skinny. Someone who had been training and then so they let themselves go. This is where the kind of body transformation progress, if I had it with a client who's new, it would be in the probably 5 to 9 week block of their training. That first 4 weeks is going to be general preparation training or GPP, and then we're going to move into 8x8, which is going to be brutal. Or I'd do it at the 8 to 12 week mark, the 8x8, to really like ignite, set the match with the stick of dynamite. I've done that many times with peak transformation clients who really wanted that transformation. That's what I liked. I love that style of program density. So you do 8 sets, 8 reps. And actually the way Vince Gironda intended it was there is no rest between the 8 reps and 8 sets. There is no rest. Let's say we do the workout, let's just use 100 kilos on the squat bar. The idea is that you do it in less time. So you increase the density, the amount of work done inside of that workout and the amount. So if it took you an hour to do the first time, at the end of the program, you're still using 100 kilos, but you might have missed some reps, say, on the last 7th set, the 8th set. You get all the reps and you do it in less time as well. That's what success looks like in that type of program, and I love giving that. Where do you go to, Jacko?

Have you used an 8x8 in the past, Al?

I have, and it did not go well.

And why?

They were just—

why not?

They were just destroyed. There was just this— it was too much volume for them, and essentially it's just too much volume. It's a lot of volume for someone who is just starting out and actually taking training pretty seriously. And people are just, yeah, they just get destroyed, not enough recovery, and then they're just dead by what, B series or the second half of their workout.

I have modified it in the past with some clients. I still give it, but 4 by 8, and then the, the last is supplementary, or 4 by— we work up to 8 by 6. So my first week might be 8x4 and then 8x6 eventually, and then last week pushing towards 8x8. But you're right, I definitely have had to modify it for some clients in the past just because they haven't— not everyone's a fiend for volume like me. But yeah, you, Jacko, where are you going?

I think even like zooming out from particular systems, I think a few key factors need to be established. Okay, if we zoom out of the system technique such that they're able to push a level of intensity without falling apart with their posture or their form. Because ultimately what's going to drive a muscle growth response is sufficient intensity, right? So I think first and foremost establishing technique through tempos, pauses, and that GPP phase. Um, now in terms of where I would go from there, like from a systems perspective, I do like to keep things quite simple. Where volume always follows the intensity we're trying to achieve. So whether they're achieving that intensity at 6 to 8 or 8 to 10, for me it's more can I also continue to reinforce things like technique, postural tightness, and get them lifting heavier? Because I like to think ahead of, okay, 2, 3, 4 phases from now, can I get them to a position where they're able to push a heavy 4 to 6 reps on a dumbbell or a barbell lift, right? Now, in terms of how much volume am I giving them, really it's dependent upon what's permissible, right?

Because what do you mean what's permissible?

Well, what their intensity allows. So if they find that, okay, 3 sets is sufficient for them in the A series and— or in their B series, and the 4th set is just not of a quality which would either be reflective of Missing reps. Yeah, missing reps, form, attention, because at the end of the day they're still relatively new to training. They're still in their first— at this stage, maybe the first 3 months of training. Those things are likely to happen. So I do start volume on the lower end and then build up from there as I see that the sets are providing a similar quality of form and intensity. Because at the end of the day, again, like, I don't necessarily treat skinny fat body types differently to how I would train someone who wasn't skinny fat. The goal is quite similar. Like the nutrition might be somewhat different, but from a training stimulus standpoint, different whether I start them, say, at a deficit or whether it's— oh, we spoke about earlier essentially, but from a training perspective, it's more or less still hypertrophy training. I don't do anything uniquely different.

Being agreed that the key with hypertrophy training is the proximity to failure, and the best way to get to proximity to failure is through making sure someone is structurally integral, because Yes. So it's always address the structural integrity through GPP or general preparation. That's why we're doing the session 1 at Enterprise— or session 2 rather, Enterprise. We always make sure that we do our structural assessment test, make sure that we find surgeons on the table, we find where your weaknesses are— or detectives rather— find where all your weaknesses are, then put a plan together that is going to support all of those weaknesses to make sure that we put you under heavy loads, your body— or any load really, for that fact, doesn't even have to be heavy— any load, your body is good. You're able to squat, bench, chin-up, whatever the case be. Alrighty, so let's shift gears. That's the sound of a car shifting gears, or in this case, our conversation. What are our lifestyle interventions for the skinny fat? Let's start with sleep. What are we feeling? What are we feeling?

Sleep, so in terms of like, okay, after looking at individual questions, a particular sleep routine, or if even, even if they even have something that they use prior to bed in terms of a routine, because we know that stress management is a big factor of achieving a recomposition.

You don't know who's listening to this. Why is stress a big factor?

I most essentially, when you're highly stressed, you're basically spreading, spreading yourself thin in terms of your adaptive reserve. So it's okay if you're trying to recover from the stress of life and training and psychological stress, mental stress, emotional stress, the more stress you have outside the gym, that's going to impair your recovery from the gym, right? Because training is a stressor, and while it is a healthy stressor, ultimately you only benefit from the training that you recover from, and stress can be an impediment to that, right? And poor sleep or insufficient sleep would be one of the ways which your stress would be impacted. Okay, so I normally look at a client's sleep circumstance, quality, duration, what are they doing before bed, are they waking up feeling restful, and if not, what can we implement from a lifestyle perspective, such as the last hour of their day. Are they unwinding? Are they perhaps working too late in the evening when they could be unwinding, reading something more restorative? That would be where I'd start.

So, so some fun— and I do wish that Oura would sponsor our podcast because I talk about them an awful lot and I don't get any money for it. Actually, I give them money to buy every month. A free membership would be nice, Oura, if you're watching. But so the Oura Ring, I highly recommend it as a sleep tracker because I find that what it does is it gives you data feedback to say yes, your sleep is on track, or no, your sleep isn't on track. And I do find it very accurate. And one of the things with sleep, always as an intervention, is I can't remember the study. I don't know if I put it in my book either, but skin can influence your melatonin production. So meaning that one of the ways, I don't know what country it is, but they interrogate folks is they put you in a room for 2 to 3 days with the lights on, cold enough that if you took off your jacket, you'd be very cold, but not so cold. So basically you're in a room for 3 days and they sleep deprive you. Essentially they sleep deprive you. For 3 days. And then at the end of it, then they ask you questions. At that point, you know, your willpower and whatever else has been completely worn away and you'll admit to whatever it is that you've done it. So they've done other studies where they've put fiber optic lights at the back of people's knees and measure the melatonin. And T.S. Wiley talks about in a book, I think it's Lights Out, I think is what her book's called. And basically showing that melatonin can be solely influenced through light production. If you are, if you do a survey of your bedroom, you wanna sleep in a cave basically. There is no artificial light. Now what's an artificial light? You know that light on the TV? That would be counted as light. The alarm clock number, I have at my house, I have an alarm clock, it's called Wake Up Bright. You can actually buy one from wakeupbright.com.au. Free shout out for them. They make a good product. And what it is, it's an alarm clock. You can put sounds in it and the sounds are like nature. I've never used the sound function, I've had it for years. But it wakes you up by emitting light. So say the wake time is 6:30 and at 6:15 it will start to emit light and that's what wakes you up. So it's a very nice way to wake up rather than the alarm clock or whatever your iPhone makes. And the other thing is making sure that when you go to bed, there is pitch black total darkness. Now the thing is our brains aren't like hardwired for sunlight and our brains don't know the difference between the overhead light that we're in right now versus the sun in the sense of the melatonin that we're producing. So when we wake up, you have that sleep tension. Adenosine basically is that you say when you wake up, adenosine's at zero. As you progress through the day, your adenosine rises. That's why we have caffeine to block off those adenosine receptors to make sure we're not producing and we don't fall asleep. And then when we get to the end of the day, we wanna have adenosine nice and high, but at that same time, melatonin should be increased. Now, if we wanna shut down the melatonin production, switch the lights on. That's gonna affect our melatonin production. And this is why for clients who we're trying to, as you said, de-stress, get them in good sleep habits, what we're trying to do is number one, be cognizant of the caffeine intake, which again, with the skinny fat type of client, the stressed and wired, always there is almost caffeine abuse, very much like you are. You're what, on 8 cups today? Jack on the other side, it's like you guys are polar opposites. You've got zero. They're doubles, right?

Yeah.

There we go, 4. 4 at Enterprise Landings.

2 doubles.

That's what it was, 4 coffees. So the point being is we do want to look at the yang side of the day and how much caffeine we're having, because that can blow out and affect our sleep. And then also when we're talking about melatonin, making sure that we're doing something that's going to increase our melatonin before bed, like not sitting in overhead light, putting the lamp on rather than overhead lights, because our brains do register that differently and the melatonin production. And then we do finally get to bed, we're doing things like not watching a very horror scary movie that's like raising our heart rate, but things that are going to calm us down. Like we're talking before meditation, before we started the podcast, and I was saying how like meditation always makes me fall asleep. And you know, that would be appropriate for someone, let's say before bed, if they want to get into that deeper brainwave state of actually getting into rest. So that would be a big one. One that I want to touch before we wrap up, because it's going to be on the lips of everyone listening to this: alcohol. How do you approach alcohol? Starting with you, Al. Abstinence. None. No alcohol for you. No beers, no wine.

For me, it's more so I don't want all or nothing. So if someone has— and it just depends on how long have they had this problem for.

You're saying alcohol is the problem?

Alcohol, like the one—

how long you make it? Like, all alcoholics, alcohol, alcohol. How long you got this problem for, man? I have one drink a week.

It's all about just gradually decreasing it week by week because, you know, habits do take a while to set in stone. So as long as you are making a conscious effort on decreasing it week by week, and also just bearing in mind and being self-aware, what are the factors that contribute to essentially alcohol? Is it socially? Am I just going, yeah, let's go out to the pub, let's go for a drink, and you just go yes? Is it a bit more of assistance? You just have trouble saying no.

Yes, again, like, because contrary to popular belief, a lot of people think alcohol helps them sleep. It doesn't. No, no, it's the complete opposite. It interferes with your sleep.

Yeah.

Before we get into more of that, I'm going to move over to you. What are your thoughts on alcohol? Yeah, for the listener, clients.

Look, I think it's important to understand why it's even an impediment to, like, body composition. What we know is that when you do ingest alcohol, it is metabolized a priority for protein. So it's not— let's say, yeah, correct, right? So let's say that you had a hard training session Friday morning, and then your typical Friday evening is a big social night, lots of drinks. Like, how much of that potential that you could have gotten from that session will be blunted by the fact that you've got a lot of alcohol circulating in your system, right? Because protein metabolism is not going to be a priority when you have a lot of alcohol in your body. And look, there is evidence to suggest that even if you had more protein, it's still going to be nullified to some degree by having the presence of alcohol in your body. And it's just not making good use of the post-training recovery period to get anything from that session, right? So I think, look, just explaining how it would affect the results that it's after, and then, okay, with that understanding, is it still cost-benefit of— I'd rather get the benefit of enjoying a night out, having a couple drinks, with the potential cost of not fully recovering from my session, or knowing that now, is it something which I'm more willing to go without, or at least reduced to a very selective, meaningful amount of social events.

So it's very open conversation with the clients, seeing where they're at.

I think it's just important they know why they're doing it, right? And I think it's not enough for me to say, well, drinks off the table. It's okay, why? There has to be an understanding of why. And for them to make a decision alongside my guidance around cost-benefit, what's the most important thing? Is having the presence of, say, a drink a fortnight actually more stress-relieving for you because you're able to engage a bit more socially, or would it be more stressful to be completely abstinent and feel like you're always missing out? So I think it— look, like Al said, it does come into the context of the reasons as to why drinking is a part of their life. And also, to play devil's advocate, what potential benefit is it giving to them by having it in? And maybe that is a social factor, because adherence is also a thing as well.

At ways to minimize if it needs to be included in an ideal world, say for body composition. But we approach this like you run a reality TV show and it was like the Enterprise boot camp and it was like, let's get the fastest transformation in the fastest amount of time. Trainers, go. It would be no alcohol.

No alcohol.

No alcohol.

But with saying that, many clients will come in and say, I do this for a living and there's lots of social drinks and we do this and this and It's part of my lifestyle. How do we then include it? Then it's minimization strategy, but then also understanding the triggers that may come along with alcohol to then minimize it. So if we recap before we wrap up this episode, the Skinny Fat Cure, we've got— and just yell out if I miss anything— increasing protein and around that 2 times body weight, getting their carbs pre, post, potentially intra depending on the level that they're at, but usually there's bigger rocks to fry, but around that workout time. Making sure you do a structural assessment and figuring out where you're at with your training on the fats around that 0.8 to 1.2, which I've detailed in my book, The Enterprise Diet. Getting your nutrition, springing over the course of the day, making sure there's regular meals, looking at the yang versus the yin, how much caffeine you're taking, making sure you're getting deep restful sleep. And then your training, making sure you do a structural assessment. That's all good. Really focusing more so on a bodybuilding type of training. Anything I missed, gentlemen, or anything you want to add? Final thoughts?

I think also the simple factor of time.

Do it for long enough.

Do it for long enough. And I think to get back to the first point of whether we diet down first or build them up first, like, how long has someone held that physique for, right? And I think time is always the factor that's going to determine the quality of the outcome. The longer you're in it, the better it's going to be, fundamentally.

Yeah, um, I mean, it's all about just being a bit more patient with your progress, right? At the end of the day, you're forming new habits, healthier habits that have long-lasting effects outside of just looking good, but health purposes as well. And just, yeah, just stop underestimating what you can do in 12 weeks and start overestimating what you can do in like 12 months.

It's a good place to land. All right, gentlemen, where can the folks learn more, see you, where you're on Insta?

I am at Aldrila_ on Instagram.

You don't really use that? Not really, I'm not really on Instagram.

On the gram, I just go to Jaka.

Awesome.

My name is Mark Ottobre, I am the owner and founder of Enterprise Fitness. If you want more about our diet strategies and how we get the amazing transformations that we do, I highly recommend you check out our book, The Enterprise Diet. You can get it from the— getitfrom.com. I hope you've enjoyed this episode. Make sure you subscribe and leave us a review. It's the only way we're really going to get the word out about this podcast. So if you have enjoyed it, make sure you send it to a friend and leave a review. And until next time, friends, train hard, eat well, and supplement smart.