S6:E17 - THE UNTOLD SECRETS OF ENTERPRISE

Welcome to the show that punches you in the face with information. Welcome to the Enterprise Fitness Podcast. My name is Mark Ottobre, and I'm joined by two of our fantastic trainers, Shane and Jason. Today we are going to be getting into— what are we going to be getting into, Jason?

We're getting into life and business.

Life and business. So these guys are going to go rapid-fire podcast questions to me, talking about business, life, philosophy, and whatever else comes. So this is a different gear of our podcast that we haven't yet explored. So pretty pumped for it. Jason, if you want to kick us off.

Yeah, nice. I want to start off with a business question because I was trying to launch a business myself there a while ago. It's quite hard. So a lot of what I learned about business is it's like you fail enough times to eventually you succeed. So Mark, the question is, what was the biggest mistake that you made that you learned the most from?

Oh, look, there's been so many and There's been so many and it's always, for me, it's always like that duck paddling above the surface. You look really calm, below the surface you're paddling like mad. So I think every year someone asks me that question, it's probably the mistake that I'm going through right now because I'm usually making at least one a year. And the hindsight, as you guys know, we purchased a property to move Enterprise into. So we'll own the land as well as the business. And not that's a mistake, but certainly I didn't have the experiences of which I have now. And the original plan was to build up, and that was— how do I say— the original plan was to build another level on top of the building. And then when I got all the permits for it, the builder quadrupled— not doubled, not tripled— quadrupled the quote after I had the permits. And I'm locked into this thing, and I said to the guy, you fucking kidding me? I told you what my budget was. It wasn't quadruple. Like, you can't just pull a number out of thin air and I'm gonna pay it. So then I had to get all the permits resubmitted, amending it. So we're not doing that, we're just sticking it to one floor, or just reamping, renovating the building. So that was a very costly mistake. It cost a lot of money. It cost equally a lot of time, probably cost like 12 months. So there's been numerous mistakes from that. And look, now I look at that, which has cost me a lot again, probably 12 months and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Really, that's probably the biggest mistake in terms of cost. But now look at like smaller mistakes that I used to fret over. Like, it makes all the other mistakes that I've made so Significant.

Yeah, did you give us a few of your smaller mistakes?

Oh, when I was first doing my work, I was really pissed about this, right? This was an early mistake. I was super pissed about it, but I remember I got all the before and afters that I was going to put on the website designed with a background, and then I sat down with my mentor Charles, actually Charles Poliquin, and he's like, don't fuck with your before photos. Why'd you change the background? And I was like, oh, I just spent like $2,000 with a designer to change all these before photos. To make them like— and then I didn't use any of them. So I was really pissed because like I spent all this money with the designer to get these like beautiful like images and banners of these before and afters, and then he's like, no, it's the opposite of what you do because then people think that you Photoshop the image. And then I'm like, yeah, he's right, 100% right. And I had to accept that I just spent this money on a designer to get this done and now I'm not going to use it. Like there's been mistakes like that where you think something's a good idea at the time And then I remember I was running seminars, we did two cameras, like one on the crowd, one on me, and we never used the footage. And it was like $800 a day for the extra camera and we never used the footage. And so it's like things like that you look back on, you go, oh, but I look back on that now, I'm like, I wouldn't know that unless I did it. I thought it was a good idea at the time.

Make the mistake and learn and then move.

Yeah, I mean, you can always teach my son, which is my son's, is you can win or you can learn.

Yeah.

And you learn a lot more when you lose than when you win. People think— I think the reason why Enterprise is so strong today is because I've made so many mistakes.

Yeah.

And I continue to make so many mistakes. And I think for me, I'm very much an artist at heart and will throw a bunch of stuff against the wall and see what sticks and go from there. Yeah. And that process, you, you make mistakes, you waste money, you quote unquote waste time, but is it really a waste of time? Because that thing that you did that led nowhere, it was actually the thing that made you think of that idea that actually was really freaking awesome, that helps push the business into a completely different direction that you never thought it would go. So there's been a lot of these things like that where I started with something work and then it's become something else and become something else and become something else. And that's the thing that's amazing.

If you had to define it into one mistake, like this That mistake led you here. If you didn't make the mistake, you would have went off in another path. Have you got any other career?

If I didn't make a mistake—

if you didn't make this specific mistake that led you here, you would be somewhere else?

Not off the top of my head. There's nothing. I'd have to come back to that one.

Yeah, no worries, we'll circle back.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, how has your mindset towards coaching changed throughout the years?

Mindset, it has changed a lot actually. I used to be pretty hardcore. I still am pretty hardcore. The guys the other day in the meeting called me a purist in terms of training. I look at everything, it's very, this is the way, the final Jedi. But I think the way it's changed is I'm a lot more empathetic. And clients, the whole thing of don't judge people. People will tell me things that they've never told anyone, and I get a lot of them. Like, when I coach someone, I get a lot of stories that people don't share. And I think when people get to know me personally, they do tell me an awful lot. And I think the reason is because they really get that I don't judge. And I think it's taken me a while to get— even like when I talk about when they tell me these things, like, I'm really, really— I'm not judging them, I'm just listening. And trying to coach them, or coaching them. I'm listening as their coach. If that's an interesting behavior that I'm not going to label, because I don't need to label it, I'm going to observe it and link it back to where you want to be. And it's not a 'I'm better than you' and 'I'm right and you fucked up' or any of that stuff. It's really just the coach's ear. And I think I've got a very non-judgmental, very non-judgmental, very accepting of people's nuances and differences and their life's path and I think it's probably the biggest thing. I think I was quite judgmental starting, and now that really has faded. A lot more accepting.

Could you expand on what you mean by judgmental?

People's lifestyles. If someone would go out and say they drink every night or they eat really bad food, they're not— they just seem to be not able to get themselves together. Everything is always drama. Rather than jump in and go, this is about— you should know better, you come on, you've got to do it better, aren't you motivated enough, don't you want your goal bad enough? Let's be really curious. So why do you find it hard? Why is that hard for you? What's a better thing? What do you want to be doing? What are the benefits of what you're currently doing? Just understanding the people. That's only by empathy, understanding people better, why they do what they do, and not having a judgment around it. And being completely okay with that and also accepting that and just help guiding people towards what they're actually aiming at rather than what they say they're aiming at, if that makes sense. Helping people realize, be the mirror. I believe as a coach, your job is to be the mirror, which is your clients, obviously the way they show up, you need to reflect back the way they show up onto them so they become aware of how they're showing up, if that makes sense. So if they don't like what they see in the mirror, you're able to present that back to them. You don't change the mirror as a coach. The coach is the formless. It doesn't make a color. So if you reflect to me black, then I reflect black back to you, and I show you that this is how you're reflecting and showing yourself into the world. Likewise, if you show me gold, I'll reflect back to you gold and say, this is how you're showing up. But not as a judgment, just as a, isn't this interesting, this is how you're showing up. So that's what I mean by the formless, is your— or the colorless. As a coach, you need to be colorless. You don't want to paint. You don't want to— if I come in, I've got in my palette, if all I've got is red, when you come, I'm going to paint you red, right? But you're not red. You could be yellow, you could be white, you could be rainbow, right? It doesn't matter. You want to show up to that person listening to them and not put your— don't taint them with your lens, if that makes sense. Except who they are, and then with— put— have a good intent of where they want to go and help guide them where they want to go.

Did that— did you— did something happen that you suddenly changed the way you do your coaching, or was that through experience?

Experience, time, experience, challenges, coaching different people, trying the same thing and not working, coaching higher level people, coaching different people, being in the position that I am where I get to look after all you guys, see the way you coach, the problems that you have, being observers over the conversations, the problems that you have, being asked for opinions on, hey, we had this problem. And if your client loves you, I don't usually hear about it. I might hear about it on Google, right? I'll get a 5-star review. They come in, they're smiling, they're never a problem. I get all the challenges, right? It's when the team member isn't happy, it's when the client isn't happy. It's— so I think you get really good when most of your role, like when you deal with challenges, that's what the buck stops with me, right? If there's a job no one wants to do, guess who gets to do it? Me. And that's both a blessing and a curse. I get a lot of challenging things on my desk, and they're all the situations that no one else wants to deal with, and I have to deal with them. In that regard, you get over the years, and I've been at this, what, I started as a PT 2000, I did my course in 2005, I started working 2006, I've had this studio since 2013. I've been managing people since 2011. I've been running courses since 2009. So I've been, I've seen lots of people come through, thousands, tens of thousands at this point. People come through and I've got to manage a lot of different scenarios and situations. And you just realize, I was, when I started 2013, I was, James will tell you, I was like a bull, completely like a bull. And it works to get you to a certain level of business. It absolutely works. And I needed to be a bull for probably the first 4, 3, 4 years. I needed to be a bull. It needed to be my way or the highway and shut up, you're doing it my way. And then your team and your business develops a life of itself and a culture that now lives and breathes that that exists without you and doesn't need the bull anymore. It needs the, the wise— I don't know— person who is able— the gardener, the wise gardener. Doesn't need the warrior, it needs the— that's probably a better analogy. Doesn't need the warrior anymore, it needs the gardener who is able to also pull out the hedges and chop the bad vines. Still has that in him, but for the most part, we're planting roses, not having to chop the crap and till the soil and get things to grow, because things are growing fine by themselves. You don't need the same mentality. So there is a change in things. Things change, things develop, and then you need to really— I think a lot of people, they stay stuck in their identity of how they were and they show up, and that's what kind of keeps them stuck at that level. Whereas I started to realize, wait a minute, if I want to go to this next level of business then pretty much everything I learned and did to get to this level, I need to stop doing. Everything.

Do you think that's what makes Enterprise stand out from other gyms or PT studios?

I think there's a lot of reasons, but just to come back to this analogy, like when I started, I was doing all the sales, the marketing, the admin, and coaching, and all the education, and I did everything, and it was all about me. And I realized to go to the next level of business, it had to be all about everyone else. Yeah, all behind the scenes. There's some things I do, but it's— we've got it, you know, Heming, we've got Ramu, we've got Serena, we've got you guys, we've got James. There's so much more arms to things we do, and that was only me able to happen, me letting go. Yeah, let other people. So what do I think that's different? I think, look, it was Walt Disney who said, I don't make money to make movies, I make movies to make money. And I feel like that with personal training. If you gave me a stack of money, I'd probably just buy a bigger gym. Yeah, and hire more people and make more videos.

Yeah, more of the same.

Yeah, yeah, that's where we're at, right? I really enjoy what we do here. So I think when you come into Enterprise, you're getting a unique experience of me in many ways, and the way I see how things should be done in fitness and in training and how to get results. And I think there's many things that we do different that— and the thing is, because I'm so obsessed with this I'm still figuring things out.

Yeah.

And I'm always figuring things out. And I like— one of the funnest things is like teaching my Wolfpack group, because like that, like I've had guys in my Wolfpack group in with me for years and they're like, how do you keep coming up with things? It's because when I go to bed, this is what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about, shit, if we did this, would be better. If we did this, would be better. If we could do it like this, this would be like just little systems. And then having a culture that you can come into every day and bounce ideas off and see how things work and interplay. And yeah, so it's fun for me to figure these things out.

Yeah. And also I love to learn as well along the way.

So do you ever switch off the work mode?

Standby. It's like a TV. Yeah, I don't think it ever truly switches off. I don't think it really, to be honest. I try and be— whatever I'm doing, I want to be as present as I possibly can be. And so practice that mindfulness. And obviously I'm not working 24 hours a day, I'm not, and that would be foolish. I love my training, so I train, but if I'm doing something, I want to be present with it, and that's it. But do I switch off? Yeah, but I'm still thinking, percolating on things. Yeah.

What's your long-term goals for Enterprise? What are you excited about?

What I'm excited about? I'm excited about moving premise. I'm excited about owning the building. I'm excited about having a shake bar.

Oh, I did not realize that was happening.

Yeah, I'm excited about having a shake bar. Ah, nice one. I like how you said that with your Irish accent too. I appreciate it. Stop. I'm on discount. But yeah, I want to have a shake bar. I want to run more seminars. I'm excited about running more seminars. I want to grow my mentoring group as well, create an education platform and get that more out to more people. And that's growing slowly. Do more media, as in do more of these podcasts, do more videos, grow our YouTube channels, and then probably write another book. This one on training though, not on nutrition, because nutrition— I feel the nutrition one's done. So yeah, there's lots to do. And then get our team to probably like in the vicinity of 16 to 20 trainers at the new location, around that. Just really create an unfuckable business. Yes, in regards— and look, there's other things that— yeah, maybe we do that too. There's It's always that thing, you have an idea and then you grow and then it's, oh, actually no, I won't do this. At the moment, I really enjoy the team aspect of what we're creating and I enjoy the education aspect and the events. And we haven't ran any events for a long time. I love running events. Always with those things, it's, I'll spend, I don't know, like months, months on one thing or years. Sometimes I spend years, I can spend 3 years on my book, 3 years. And when I say 3 years on my book, I wasn't doing other things. It wasn't like I spent 3 years on my book. And once I'm able to systemize something and do it, then I like to move on to the next thing. So the big rock right now for me and like my whole focus is moving allocation. That's the big rock. And there's been a lot of hurdles that have gone in front of that, a lot. And just unforeseen things, councils, builders, surveyors, permits. Supply, materials, all of the above, right? There's been a lot of blocks to that. So I think once that— once we move that big rock, and that is a big rock, it will free up my kind of mental space to working on the next big thing.

Yeah, nice.

And bring it back to more fitness sort of question: would you rather have a microwave or an oven?

Fuck an oven, of course. Oven. Next question. I'm going to microwave a chicken. Okay, but is that— microwave my potatoes, kind of baked potato.

My question is that, is there any muffins in a microwave? Sure, but microwave is faster to just reheat anything that you brought.

Quality or do you want quantity?

Yeah, so that's my question.

Cheap and convenient or you want quality? Quality. I'm definitely gonna go for the oven.

Sure, okay, all right, let's move on then.

Uh, do you have any inspiring fitness, uh, words for someone that would want to create what you've already created? Something similar?

Don't.

Don't?

Um, what, what would I have? A PT studio, a team that can run when you're not like micromanaging everything, social media Yeah, look, I think, I think there's a lot of in the PT industry, you know, and let's think in general with entrepreneurialism, people talking about working for the man and kind of this kind of thing. And it's like, you know, you want to go out on your own and do your own thing and this kind of stuff, and trading time for money and all that. I still trade time for money. It's just I'm working. It's not that I'm not working, it's just that I'm not PTing, but I'm still trading my time in hope that And then the difference is I'm trading my time in hope that I make money, whereas if you're on the floor, you're trading your time for money knowing that you're going to make some money. And sometimes for me, I hope that I'm going to make money and my idea pulls off. Sometimes it doesn't and I don't make money. Yeah, and I think that's where you got to back yourself. So inspiring words, I joke about not, because it has been very hard. It is hard. It's not easy. And if you're not fully obsessed about it, then you probably will run out of steam and run out of gas at some point because challenges do come up. And then it's not going to be smooth sailing, if anything but. You're going to run into a lot of challenges, different challenges that come to every different point of business and scenario, whether it's letting go and managing people or people bringing up stuff that you have to deal with and triggers you and childhood this and that. And there is a lot of stuff in business like that that people don't talk about. I think for me there's nothing else that I would rather do. And that's where it's like, for me, did it make sense to buy commercial property? Yeah, it did, because I know what I'm going to be doing in the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years. I'm going to be doing personal training. I know that unless someone with lots and lots of money makes an offer that I can't say no to.

Quick shout out.

Yeah, but probably not. Yeah, it has to be very good if you're watching. Um, No, but the point being is for me, I know what I want to be doing. I want to be doing PT and growing that and obsessing about that. Seeing myself going into another industry, like, why would I?

It's true.

Advice: learn, learn. Just don't look at what you can make, don't look at the money. And that's— this is the same approach that I did when I started, and it's never been, and it hasn't been about money for me ever. It's always been about learning and experience. And when I say experience, not only my experience but the experience that I can create for others. And that for me is probably my most motivating factor, is when I do anything, I'm really thinking about what's the experience that this is going to have for other people. And I don't know if you guys heard me say this because you guys have been newer, but Like even our staffing stuff here, like our team, it's like, how can I make this Disneyland for you? That's my focal point.

Free shakes maybe?

Yeah, well, that was good. That was really good. Very nice. Okay, I'm gonna write that on the list.

Yeah.

I have a question. Where do you draw the line with scope of practice and handling— handing over to other professionals? For example, like say injuries or mental health.

In our user manual, right, we've got it in our book who we refer to. And we're very— if you have any soft tissue injuries, this is who we refer to. If you want to get your bloods done, this is who you refer to. If you've got eating issues, eating disorders, this is who we refer to. Literally, before you even start with us, it's in our user manual of what we give clients. I, I think we're really fucking good at training people and getting people in shape, and we're also so good that we're aware of what we're not that good at. And I think the better you get at that, the more you realize how nuanced some of these things are. And I'll use the example of eating disorders and unconscious blocks. So if you're hitting up against that, I've done a lot of work in this, I'll be speaking to someone and, yeah, I really self-sabotage, I have this eating disorder, I have this or this. Yeah, look, I think this is a constraint to you getting in shape. Like, if that's the sense that I get, and I might even guide them to the DILTS model and say this is an exercise that you could do 'But even better than— yeah, I've got a friend who, she does this work every day of the week. This is what she does, and she's really good. I reckon you should go see her. I reckon one session with her or a couple sessions with her should be part of your fitness program, 100%. Because this, for me— you're telling me you want to get into this shape. I see this as important as you sticking to my meal plan. In fact, if you don't do this, I don't think you will stick to my plan.' And like, likewise, let's say for example, who refer to Phil for our soft tissue stuff, If I can't move, if your body isn't moving the way I want it to, or if I think you can get faster results if you go see Phil, then absolutely I'm going to be saying, I got— again, you're not paying me to sit there and massage you or manipulate. It's not what— it's not my expertise. I'm going to be referring to anyone who can help my client get faster and better results and he's on my team. And yeah, there has been cases where sometimes I've referred someone to someone, they've told, oh, don't go see them. Okay, off the list, cross. You no longer get any referrals from us. Whereas like the people I refer to, they refer us clients, we refer them, and it's just really nice dynamic. And I can call any of those guys up and say, hey, I'm sending you Bob. Bob has this, can you give me your feedback on what you should think? The other day I was just speaking to Phil, got a client I just sent him. I said, what's going on with his hips? Gave me his opinion. He's, yeah, look, this is what— this is the approach I'll take. Because, yeah, but what you're doing is good. I'm like, yeah, but what you've said about— and we were bouncing the idea of how we should go about training this client, and it wasn't like he was saying you should just— we were talking about what would be best for this client. I've got amazing relationships with all of the people that we refer to, amazing relationships. I've got no hesitation to refer out. Where's the scope of practice? When needed, really. That answers the question.

Yeah, I suppose.

Yeah, I genuinely trust all the people that we refer out to, and if they say to me, hey, look, you need to do this— if Phil said to me this person shouldn't train for the next 3 weeks, I would say okay, because there's genuine trust. And I mean, that relationship has been fostered over years. It's not something that, like, I've just known the guy or whatever. He's known me, he trains here, he trains with James. We've known each other for a very long time. We always have the client's best interest at heart, so that's why.

That's good. Yeah, um, what I wanted to ask about was basically how you built the community here among the trainers. So you were saying you would like to make it like Disneyland for everybody. Yeah, so what do you actually look for in, let's say, even though I'm, I know I'm working here now, like PTs or staff or whatever to actually make sure everyone gets on or has a good community in the place.

Would I invite you to a barbecue?

Would you? I haven't been invited yet.

Wow, about that. That's really the number one question. Yeah, it might seem like a really random way to say it, but would I invite you to a barbecue at my house? If the answer is no, then you probably don't belong working here. Fair enough, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Because, and that's the thing, like when Ari, he went away to Europe just recently and you were here for the team meeting and he's like, thanks everyone for looking after my clients while I was away. They all just came straight back, it was easy. And you speak to the clients, they're like, yeah, I really enjoyed training with Shane, I really enjoyed training with Jason, I really enjoyed training with Matt, I really enjoyed— they're like, you guys are really just lovely here. It's because everyone is the same, not the same, we're not exactly the same, none of us are the same, but we all are similar. We have a similar— we're easygoing, but we work hard. Where we like to have a laugh, but we know when it's time to be professional. You know, there's that— we'll give each other shit, but we also know you have to do your job, and that's not to be taken for granted. Like, when it's time to count reps and do the program, we absolutely deliver. But at the same time, we're not going to take— best way to say is we take what we do really seriously, but we don't take ourselves seriously. And that is also something that I look for. Someone who's really wound up tight and can't take a joke or walks around with a stick up their ass, it's not going to fly here. It's not the first day, it's not even going to be me who says it, it's going to be someone else, probably Tyrone, who makes a joke and will offend them. Because the first day you were here, would I walk up behind you and go, you need to work on your lats or something?

Yeah.

And like the second day you're giving me shit and then you were giving Hemming shit. That's— we just— it's fun, but it's not— we're not saying it's all each other's fault.

First day when I walk in, I was like, man, this guy must be a marathon runner.

Who to me? Wow, throwing shade already. Did I answer your question though?

Yeah, it did. Yeah, don't want to—

always attitude over aptitude, right?

So because that can be learned.

Yeah, we have, I think, the best onboarding trainer program, bar none. You've got all of our programs you get access to, you get weekly mentoring, you get weekly training, you get our online portal, you get the quarterly events that we run for other trainers in industry, like our internship, our late results. You get all of that. We know that we're going to train you up, and then you get assessed as well, which no one else does. We actually assess you on how you do these things and make sure that you're on board. So we know for sure we're going to be able to train you up to the standard. Yeah, because we've got all those checks and balances. The question is, what's your attitude? And that's really where it all boils down to. And It only takes one piece of rotten fruit to spoil the bowl, and that's where we're very careful on.

We hire very slowly to make sure that we're hiring, and everyone stays long term as well.

Yeah, absolutely. What, the average PT life is 2 years? Like, 2 years is the average life. I think now we're at an average of 4 years. Average.

Yeah, it says a lot.

But then you've got James, who's 8 almost 9 years. Lewis is, I think, is 7 now. Tyrone is over 5, and then a few of them were up to their 4th with no slowing down.

Yeah, yeah. Um, a general question more like on the nutrition side of stuff. Back in the days before the '90s, fats were evil.

Yeah.

And each decade, the fit gurus, they vilify one macronutrient. And where do you think we are heading to?

I think one macronutrient gets vilified every day now because of Instagram. I think if you were to type in keto guy or keto girl, you'd have carbs being vilified. If you were to type in IFFY Fit Your Macros, you'd have calorie counting being championed. If you were to type in low-carb plan, you'd have fat being championed. So I think there's no shortage today of finding cults. I think where we're heading, the industry— have you heard of the term called audience capture?

Um, no.

Audience capture. So the best example of this was this young YouTuber, right? He, young kid, he was a— I think he was a vegan when he started. I don't know his handle now, but basically started as a vegan kid who just loved health and was eating all these like healthy recipes, and I'm a vegan and this And then he put up a food challenge and it's all something about, can you— what, how many pieces of celery or carrot do you think I can eat? And it took off. So then he started posting more of these challenges and he started to get more views. And then it became— this whole channel became about eating challenges to the point now where I think he's 350 kilos or something, like 350 pounds, like he's 150 kilos. He's like super fat and he does all these— I'll eat the whole menu at McDonald's. I'll eat the whole menu of KFC as a challenge, and then puts the video on, eats the whole menu, and people tune in to watch this super fat guy eat the whole menu. That's audience capture, where he's just transformed himself to whatever the audience wants, and he's no longer himself. He actually— the audience is him, if that makes sense, because he doesn't want the, the audience to take his eyes off him. So where do I think it's going? That's where I think it's I don't think— if you look at, we're protected here in the sense that we have a business and then we put out content. So I really don't give a fuck what you say. If you don't like the truth, fuck off. Like, it's not— I don't care if you want to follow me, you don't want to follow me, whatever, right? It's fine. I'm a big boy, I'll live. But you look at influencers and people who their whole income is reliant upon how many people tune in, and the whole income is— their whole self-worth is reliant upon their likes, their follows. They don't want to lose that. So they just post the same content over and over and over, and that becomes a case of audience capture. Liver King is an example that got torn down where he probably didn't have enough life in it. I think there was like a lot of marketing and stuff that he was the face of a big marketing brand to sell supplements and that kind of stuff. Sorry, V Shred. Yeah, whatever it was, right? I think that's probably not exactly right, true, but that's what I see with a lot of even like lower or less influencer type, who their following isn't even as big, they're transforming their feed into what they think they want other people to be. To answer your question, where do I see it going? I see a few people standing out as always, and a lot of people just fading into kind of okay-ish vanilla whatever. Yeah, they don't want to be judged because they're scared of, uh, especially with that politically correct environment.

Yeah, you'd say that staying right around the middle is the best place to be?

No, the worst place to be. The worst place to be is staying right around the middle. As in, if you're not willing to say something that's gonna— you mean in nutrition?

In nutrition, yeah.

Oh yeah, I think being open to things in nutrition, but I think having a view that you're not really— you're trying to please people, the way I interpret it what you're saying is if you just stay vanilla and you're not willing to say and put your opinion on the line and think and put something out that could be wrong, I think that's the worst. You want to, you want to risk something when you put something out. Um, I think that's the best place to be, risking something. But I think in nutrition, yeah, being open and understanding to— you don't want to be— I think my book does a good job of it where that's what I tried to do. The aim was present this is how high fat, this is low carb, this is like the chapter 3 which is hormones versus calories where I present both and say this is my opinion on how like where both of these camps go wrong. And rather than make it about this versus this, how do these two come together and how can we get better results? That's my aim, is that middle ground there, because that's where it's not sexy but it's based in principles. Yeah. So I don't think, I don't think principles generally sell. What sells is cheap techniques and headlines. Yeah, like why carbs are making you fat, why keto will help you shred 10 kilos. That's what sells, and that's what people are going to gravitate towards onto. Yeah, so that we're never going to get rid of that, I don't think. Finance world, how to get rich quick, it's the same kind of shit. Yeah, honestly.

So, uh, what have been your most rewarding moments Since you started your business, you pick one or many.

Yeah, there's been many. So probably one of the first one that comes to mind was interviewing my hero in nutrition, which was Johnny Bowden. I interviewed him twice. So that was like when I interviewed him the first time, I think it was like 2011 when I just started my podcast. The fact that he even responded to my email spun my mind out. Getting to speak to Randy Roach, who wrote the book Muscle, Smoke, and Mirrors, for the first time, that was amazing. And he did a whole consult with me. Getting my POC Level 5 from Charles, that was also equally being recognized. Like, I remember I wrote this article, and this was a small thing, but I wrote this article about Janet and how I did a basically a prep for her. And two guys I really respect, Charles Poliquin shared it, and Nick Mitchell from UP, he also shared it. And for me, that was like a big tick that like my work was getting recognized by people who I respected. That was like really quite humbling. Getting published in T Nation when T Nation was the shit. It was the shit. Like, when I got published in T Nation, that was the biggest men's health magazine online. And I published an article, you can still Google it, killing— fighting the T-killing toxins. So it was an article in 2012, I believe, 2011 or 12. It was all about like how toxins are interfering with testosterone. Did a real good piece on that. So that was certainly a highlight. Training Angie Maloney, training Janet. Training like a bunch of winners for state comps, probably then now watching you guys train the winners and seeing like you guys, your competitors that come up and say like Amy and Cristiano, a recent one where he trained Bricks and Bricks won, and seeing how Cristiano's developed as a coach and seeing you guys go from enterprise coach to senior coach to master coach, then presenting to Wolfpack. To me, there's a real great thrill in seeing the team here develop into leaders. Probably even see Jacka. Jacka came through the ranks super fast here into Master Trainer and has been a leader now doing education with you guys. They're for me that I think there's a lot you can take for granted in those things, but they're the everyday things that really super highlight.

Yeah, if you had to pick, do you think what's down on the top?

Probably out of everything, like, Opening here and then having Charles come as well and doing videos here as well. We have some videos that he did here. That was a big thing because, yeah, my mentor. And then having Bob as well, like I had Bob here who's my nutrition mentor for— he still is. He taught me— probably the guy who taught me the most about supplements out of everyone, out of anything ever done. Bob Gill was the guy, and I had him here out regularly twice a year learning from him. So I don't know, like there's so many. Yeah, there's so many that have been super highlights, but I remember when I opened here, like 2013. That was like— we had the Enterprise. But Wolfpack 2016, when I ran my first Wolfpack, that was incredible. Like, the vibe that year was insane. So sorry, I can't boil it down to one.

That's fair, there's a lot of them.

10-year, a recent 10-year. Actually, probably the recent one that I'm going to say is when we went to the summit last year. We had pretty much the whole team. We're at the summit. You guys haven't been to the summit?

Not yet.

Yeah, yeah. I don't want to say anything else. Okay, the summit was— Ramy was at the summit. It was just, in terms of team, how close we were and what we did, it— I would say it set the tone for this year of what we did and just the level of— the guy came up to us later and was like, he said that you and him have been working together for a long time. He was referring to me and James. He goes, you and him have been working together for a long time. Like, yeah, probably about 8 years. He's like, yeah, you can tell. You guys don't even have to talk. You guys just look. He knows what you're thinking, you know what he's thinking. And the amount of times where he would just look at you and you'd look at him and you would go over here and he would go over there and you manage the teams without talking, he goes, was inspired me to go back and have a team meeting with his team. And that's what I mean, like, it was just a— there was a bunch of challenges which I'm not going to talk about that we had to do, and we had to manage our teams to do these challenges, and it was just, it was amazing. It's great.

Yeah, sounds good.

Yeah, it is.

Are we doing more questions?

Yeah, one more each.

One more. Who are you thinking to invite at Enterprise Fitness next?

Who I want to invite?

Yeah, a few big names in the industry.

Oh, you mean for the podcast?

Podcast or like any— yeah, seminar or—

yeah, I've got no one lined up. It's the most disappointing answer you could think of. I've got no one. I got, I got you and I got Jason. Shane and Jason.

Yeah, you'll make this a weekly thing.

Yeah, exactly.

Perfect. And when you want to start your next book?

Not for a long time. Not for a long time.

Have you got like the research started or— No, no, not even looking at it. Fair enough.

Not even looking at it. There's no— it's definitely— we've got a lot of projects on the go, a lot. And the next probably thing we do with the book is the audiobook, which— so I need to find 18 hours somewhere to record that. And yeah, that'll be the next thing.

I'll find a good quality AI.

Yeah, hopefully. I've tried that, I haven't been able to find it. Yeah, that would be nice if I could do it all in AI, save me 18 hours, all the recording time. But anyway guys, how— it's been a pleasure speaking to you both today. Where can the folks learn more about you?

Yeah, um, Shane Fitness on Instagram, replace the A with the 8.

And you can find me on Instagram as well and Facebook at Coach Jason Massey PT.

And my name is Mark Ottobre. I'm the owner and founder of Enterprise Fitness and the author of The Enterprise Diet. If you've enjoyed this podcast, I invite you to subscribe to us wherever you listen to podcasts, and better yet, share it with a friend or family member and help them get on the path of getting in shape so we can reach more people and do more episodes. So until next time, folks, eat well, train hard, and supplement smart.