S6:E8 - Overcoming Injuries and Bouncing Back Stronger

Welcome back to another episode of The Wolf's Den with me, your stand-in host, James Kelly, General Manager of Enterprise Fitness. And today I am joined with Tyrone Folino, Enterprise Master Coach, and Matt Crooks, Enterprise Senior Coach. And today we are going to discuss strategies for overcoming injuries. Now, that's with people who might be athletes, or it could be with people who are just general population clients as well. I think at some point everybody is going to suffer some kind of injury. So today we just want to discuss a few aspects of how to deal with that and how to get back on track with your training or competition. So gentlemen, thank you for joining me today. I think where I would like to kick this off is discussing the initial mental frustration when you're hindered by an injury. And Matt, I obviously know this is something that you have good experience with, having had quite a serious injury recently. Let's hand over to you and discuss what your thoughts are around that mental aspect initially.

Yes, obviously it's hard. Like, I ruptured my quad, what, 13 weeks ago. The first initial thought was okay, this isn't great, but they're more sitting down with the sports doc and everything like that and telling them that you've got a 2.5cm tear through your tendon and you're gonna have to get surgery. Yeah, it's hard. Realistically, I didn't want to— and I've told many people this— I didn't actually want to go to training, didn't want to watch football, didn't want to go to training, didn't really feel like coming to work purely just because injury played that much of a toll. And playing my sport is a big part of my life. I've been doing it since I was young, and same for anybody that does something for a long period of time. It's frustrating. But I think the most important thing that you do is— I said do— the thing, important thing that you do is that you focus on going to those things. So still spending time with people, talking to people, keeping yourself busy, because realistically, if you don't then you're just gonna fall down that hole. So it— yeah, it's frustrating, but you've just got to deal with it and just be like, okay, it is what it is. So yeah, it's— yeah, that's pretty much it.

I'm still gonna have a doo-doo.

I know, it's funny.

What do you think was the biggest step in the right direction for you once it initially happened? And you obviously had all those feelings of probably frustration, anger towards the injury, what was the next step in terms of you starting to progress forward from that point?

I think it was more the support that I had from you guys at work. What other environment would you want to be around? So realistically, people that are just trying to get the best out of you, and then people at work, and then family as well, and then obviously my physio. So realistically, starting to get on that, to that process as soon as I had surgery it was like, hey, this is your plan. Set out a plan in place to be like, okay, this is what we're gonna do step by step, week by week. And it was basically like sitting down, standing up to a box, like no weight whatsoever. So the first 6 weeks initially I had to do weight— it was no weight, and so just bodyweight stuff. And it was real basic, something that wasn't going to irritate my quad. But realistically It was just trying to understand at the start why it happened. So obviously you've got controllable and uncontrollable injuries. So like, controllables are more of, yeah, something that isn't impact, or like an ACL where it's okay, you're by yourself and you've just, okay, done your ACL. Whereas you've got your— sorry, that you're in controllables, and you've got controllables being more of, you know, muscle injuries, where it's like mine, for instance. I think that could have been controlled. Maybe it was something that football or something recovery-wise where it's impacted my, my body, load management, load management type of thing where it's impacted me. But essentially having the family, people at the gym, my physio just helping me along the way and understanding, okay, this is what we're going to do, and just being able to talk to people. I think that's been the most important thing is just talk communicate.

You were still training, you trained your upper body. What was— how did you overcome that mental frustration from not wanting to do anything, not wanting to be around anyone, to going, okay? And then— and this is like, hats off to you. I remember I saw you bench pressing and you had your legs up on a box, and I was like, what is this stupid— what is this guy doing? But then at the same time, like, you know what, hats off, like, he's still training. What got you to that point where it's like, okay, I just need to do what I can with what I got outside of rehab as well?

So that thing where it's— it was just more— it was like gym was my medicine. So being able to just do something in the gym, like I can— I think I could only do calf raises. I couldn't get my left leg past— I was training my right side, um, at the time, but I couldn't do— it was majority was upper body, and I could do some calf raises. But it was just having that, being able to just train in the gym, and it was just, man, suck it up. Like, it is what it is. Like, you moping and just laying on, feeling sorry for yourself, that's not going to get into you anyway. No, it's probably going to make it a lot worse, and that's going to put more weeks, months onto the injury. Just, okay, this is what it is, this is what's happened, this is how we're going to overcome it.

And yeah, I think that stage is part of the process, but being able to snap out of that, yeah. As quickly as possible is important. And like, I can resonate with Maddie on this one, having suffered a very similar injury just in a different area a few weeks prior to him. And those first few days, like, as soon as you do it, it's obviously frustration, anger, those types of thoughts going through your mind. And then honestly, for me, a couple of days after, I was seriously considering just retiring from actually playing. Because I hit a point where I just had enough. But then, like Matty said, speaking to the right people, speaking to the physio, speaking to the guy who was looking after my rehab at the time, and actually taking a bit more of a step back and a bigger look at the bigger picture, and then starting to actively move forward and put a plan in place as to what that return to play looks like was very important. And I know we've obviously started this podcast off discussing what this looks like in, in our situation from more of a sporting aspect, but I'd like to just relate it back to whether it's one of our clients or one of our other listeners who might suffer from an injury setback that in their context that might be in relation to the progress they've been making with their goals. Whether it be weight loss, muscle gain, whatever it might be, and it's something that's going to impact what they can do going forward with their training. So it's not just exclusively about man and Maddie's situation where it's more of an athletic standpoint. Like, we want to discuss these things because it's probably going to be very similar things that people have to deal with regardless of whether they are playing sports or they are just your everyday gym goer who has had a setback from what they're able to do in the gym. And I think one of the, one of the things I'd like to talk more on, which you mentioned there, and Tyrone, hats off to you for, was continuing to do something. And I think one thing I've noticed when clients suffer from injury setbacks is the initial mindset is, oh, I can't do anything for this period of time, whether that's off their own back or whether a physio is giving them that, that feedback of, oh no, just do nothing for this period of time. That's a good start, right? I don't think, I don't think that's a solution in any situation, whether it's somebody who does have athletic endeavors or whether it's someone just looking to improve their health and well-being. I don't think doing nothing at all is the way to go. So do you think it's important to make sure that we set those people up with what they can do within their limitations based on the injury that they've suffered?

Yeah, 100%. I think, look, something's better than nothing at the end of the day. So if you're getting something in and working within your means— I've had plenty of clients, maybe a shoulder niggle or something with a back, and the more you expect something to happen like an injury it's gonna happen. Realistically, if you're thinking, oh, you're going real slow on a deadlift on the way, or like you're standing up and everything like that, or, or on your bench or something, and you're standing up and you're like, like, what are you doing? It's gonna happen. If you think—

I think it's an old thing. It was like, and I remember Andrew Locke saying this way back in, it was like 2018, it was like, people will touch, they're like, they'll push their front deltoid, like, oh, it hurts. We'll stop touching it. If you, if you're pushing and looking for something, then then you're going to find it. But I think going back from both, both your stories, and I think it's very relatable to our gen pop and just anyone in the gym, I think the two biggest factors that are going to help anyone is going to be one, having the right people surround you, and two, just doing something that is pain-free and what not related to— or it might even be related to your injury. It's like, I've got a shoulder eagle, okay, I can do— let's say it's a shoulder— I can do 3 kilo lateral raises without pain, but as soon as I go to 4 Like, it hurts. It's okay, let's just do 3.

What you can do.

Yeah, let's just work— let's work with what you can do rather than just avoiding it altogether. And I think going with that environment, surrounding yourself with the right people, whether that be the right coach, my physio, a chiro, but a good one. And I think my opinion first and foremost on, on those respects is if you've got an allied health professional that says don't do anything or just sit and leave it like that's not the right person. It's not because there's, there's so much more. And there's a lot of studies coming out now that are showing that if you work up until that pain threshold where it is, you're actually doing more benefit than not. If you look at, even look at Mark, he tore his bicep. The bloke was still doing bicep curls on the torn bicep.

He had a 10 kilo in one hand and a 1 kilo or 2 kilo in the other hand, right?

Yeah, because he was working towards that pain threshold.

Yeah.

And to Did it make things any worse? No, if anything it made it better. And obviously the severity of the injury is going to be determined on what— it's going to determine what you can and can't do. But at the same time, if you've got a broken leg, you can still do bicep curls, 100%. And that's, that, that's going to be better than nothing. And how many times you look at the, you look at the Olympia stage and they've got bodybuilders in wheelchairs these days. What's your excuse? You've got to be a little niggle? These guys can't move their legs, but they're still doing something.

Yeah, 100%. Like, I've had clients who have maybe broken hands or broken fingers and those types of things, and we can still train lower body, that's for sure. But even utilizing things like cuffs and whatnot where there's no need for actually gripping anything, right?

Like that one time when we only had one set of cables and I had that client who had a broken finger, I was like, all right, we're spending all your upper body day at the cables. And it's just, yeah, utilizing cuffs. I think I've, I think I've even put straps on, on the cables and just let's just do one arm rows. You know, what can we do? And that's— yeah, same thing.

Yeah. And I think that's why I wanted to start with the initial mental challenges, because again, I think the stage of getting back to doing something can also be a bit of a mental block for the individual. And what I mean by that is it's always easier to do nothing or think it's too hard to try and do something, right? But when you when you start to trust the people that you surround yourself with, whether it be your coach, your physio, like you, you reiterated before, to put a plan in place that will allow you to start to do something and start to make some kind of progress. That's really important. And trying to get beyond the mental challenge of, oh, it's going to make it worse, or I think that's probably a common one, or if I do X, like, it's on— it's not gonna be beneficial and helping people try and overcome that initial mental block of trying to start doing something again.

I think going on that, and people thinking that doing something related to the pain or the injury that they think they have— how many times do we get people in with lower back issues and it's like, okay, you're gonna do a back extension and you're gonna do some deadlifts, and like, what? Yeah. Because that's how we're going to strengthen not only your glutes, hamstrings, but also those erectors that surround your back. That's— I think that's a big thing as well. It's just, it is fear. It is fear. And I think people over— they give too much to the fear in terms of, if I do a deadlift poorly, I'm going to end up in a wheelchair. No, your spine's meant to flex to some degree.

Our bodies are much more robust than people think.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And At the end of the day, Matty, you tore your quad, man.

I'm like, if I do it again, I'll do it again.

Yeah, but yeah, you had surgery, it's pulled back together. Yeah, it's been a hot, long, arduous road so far, but it's fixable.

Exactly. And what if I give up and, okay, sweet, I'm 24, just give up and I'm not going to play again? It's still stuff. Like, if I forget all the rehab and don't do the rehab and don't do something, I'm still going to be in the same spot as I was 13 weeks ago.

And I think on that, we see people often who come to us who might have suffered a serious injury many years ago and they go, oh yeah, didn't really do the rehab that I should have done. And we can see the physical limitations that it creates way further down the track in terms of what they can and can't do. So I think it is really important to seek the right advice in terms of, okay, what can I do now to start making improvements and help me start to rehab this injury correctly, even if it's just to get back to some level of normal function, right?

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I've got many clients, especially one that did his knee, did his ACL, and he didn't do the rehab in the past. I know on the line leg curl, he's— you look at, or kneeling leg curl, I can see straight away with his going into knee flexion, like, struggles, like, on his left compared to his right. And that's purely just because he's not done his rehab properly in in the past. He's done a little bit but not the full extreme of it. So it's like, all right, this is scratching the surface. We start from point one and then we're going to build you back up again.

So yeah, I think it's a very— it's probably more common than it should be that people suffer from bad injuries and they might go to a physio and the physio prescribes a few exercises to get started and they might do them for a couple of weeks and then they drift off and then they don't really revisit the physio because there's no bigger overarching goal that they're trying to get back to achieve, and so they just let it drift away and just deal with it. And this isn't necessarily a plug for people to come and train with us, but I think it's important to then go and seek out the right professionals who are going to give you the guidance over a period of time to help you properly come out the other side of that. Like I said before, if anything, just having reasonably normal function of whatever the area is that's been injured. Yeah, in the first instance.

But I think on that physio aspect, and they get given all rehab, or whoever it is where the person gets given a set of exercises to help regain that— it's generally to regain that any range of motion they've lost. But then they've missed that, that critical component of them putting weight back through the joint or the tendon or the muscle, whatever it is. Because at the end of the day Like, you do— you need weight-bearing exercises in order to progress, in order to make it stronger again, so you don't do the same injury at the end of the day.

Yeah, and spot on with what you said. You might be using a band for rotator cuff injury or something like that, but then essentially you've got to put some load through it. That's going to be more than just utilizing a band.

It all works on a continuum, and I think exactly that's at some point, and you do have to start to build that base level strength back up in that area. And look, there's obviously some injuries that are more, more challenging to deal with than others from a severity perspective, and there might be some limitations that we might need to work within. So let's say I've got a client who's got— who's had back surgery a couple of times, so there's certain parameters that we need to work within, but we have an understanding where if he does feel anything is causing any issue, he'll let me know and we'll make adjustments where necessary. But we've got him to a point now where we've built his base so wide from a strength perspective of not just the lower back but the glutes, the hamstrings, his ability to brace properly, that when we put him in those movements that may have previously felt like he was unsafe, he now doesn't even have a second thought about doing them because he knows we've built out the strength in all the other, other areas that we needed to support the past injury.

You've actually— you've got another one in a similar position where they've got a spinal condition, and at the same time, I can say that you guys are deadlifting, you guys are remaining deadlifting, bent-over rows. There's— you've built that base and that base level strength so wide. And it's one of those ones where you might look at it from a distance and go, doesn't look completely right, but for that person, that it is. And it's again, and she's— this client is excelling and makes progress and gets pretty strong. Yeah, 100%. And gets a bit of competitiveness from some other clients that we get in at the same time. So Yeah, it's all about building that base level strength and then progressing from there at the same time. But in terms of— I think what we can look at next is, you know, preventative measures, which is really what— basically the same thing, having that base level strength and doing weight-bearing exercises to strengthen joints, tendons, muscles, even bone density, to help prevent those injuries actually coming on. So what would you say is the best? What would either of you say that would be your non-negotiables in order for injury prevention?

Oh, injury prevention. I don't know if I'm the guy for injury prevention.

I realistically— and this comes back to, look, I don't think I am, to be honest either. I've had too many injuries.

But I think, I think with the nature, seeing as I'm—

oh no, I think with the nature of what we do, there's— it's gonna happen.

I've had enough. I think we've had enough injuries to be able to go, all right, these are preventable measures. And I think it goes back to understanding your client and the stresses that they have outside of the gym as well, because realistically that's going to play a toll on their body as well at the same time. And understanding— and it might be whether it's client, athlete, whatever— at the end of the day, if they've got kids, work, super stressful, just understanding your client, because then us programming them in the gym, how much sleep they're getting, getting is then gonna impact what we're gonna program them in the gym. Realistically, we're not going to chuck them through giant sets if they're getting 2-3 hours sleep. I've got one in particular, she works in ICU, and she's come a long way. Obviously during COVID she hasn't had any injuries, but it's more from the standpoint that she'll come in and she'll come off a night shift and she'll be super tired, and I'm not taking her through a tough workout. I just got a tough workout like program at the moment, but I'm not let's just get you moving, get you through something. And that comes back to understanding your client, because realistically, if I did chuck her through those giant sets or quad sets or whatnot, something like that, something with high volume, realistically that's just asking for an injury.

Yeah, so a bit of understanding on where you are at that particular point in time and going, okay, listen, just listening to your own signals and building that base level strength.

I think that's the most important thing, as well as understanding your client, because if you're not strong enough, then realistically you're just going to get injured more often.

So yeah, I had a very similar conversation with Jacka a few days ago, a very similar situation where he had one of his clients in a strength block, but then his life got very stressful and he had all these other stresses going on. And Jacka just pulled him out of the strength block and went into something that was a lot more stripped back and a lot easier, because for exactly that reason, if you keep pushing and keep pushing, eventually something's likely to break, right? That percentage chance goes up massively.

Might not even be an injury. It could be like, if it's high— if you're high stress and then, you know, you're cooking your nervous system by doing strength block, it might be like you just get sick. Yeah, like there's always going to be the weakest link, and the weakest link is going to be the first thing that breaks. So yeah, either way. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, for sure. What do we think on the importance of nutrition in terms of recovery from injury?

Massive calorie deficits. No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Don't do that.

Um, no, massive, so important. I forgot your question. What was the question again?

Nutrition.

I forgot your question, but it's massive and important. So, oh yeah, on recovery, the importance of nutrition.

Let's start with calories. Do you need to be in a— no, should you diet when you've got an injury?

No. Why?

Why?

Realistically, like, for your body to be able to recover, your body— so let's think about being in calorie deficit. That's just another stress on the body. You're injured, you're placing another stress on the body being in that. So let's put them baseline or even surplus, maybe baseline. If they're obviously goals fat loss, then put them at baseline. That's going to be more comfortable for them. That's going to provide them with enough nutrients to help with that recovery process. Obviously protein is going to be important as well in that phase. And then obviously carbohydrates reduce stress levels, improve energy, and then your fats with any inflammation. Then you can utilize supplements around that as well.

I think that's key as well, is just remembering that in order to recover from an injury, you need to be providing the body with enough energy from calories in order to— what's the word I'm looking for— in order to just move that energy and the amino acids into rebuilding.

They need the raw products.

You need the raw— yeah, you need the raw products and the building blocks. Because at the end of the day, if there's not enough energy coming out, then it's going to slow everything down. Sorry, it's not enough energy coming into the body, then everything else will slow down. And then that's including your recovery time. It's a big one. And I think way too many times— how many times have we seen it where people will be, oh, I need to lose fat. So let's just look after your injury first.

Do one thing at a time.

One thing. Yeah, one thing. Let's just one thing at a time. And it goes on to what we've spoken about time and time again. It's let's fix, let's fix one thing. We'll turn one knob. And then we can sort everything else out later. And if injuries— if you're injured, then that's probably the biggest and most forefront thing that we need to focus on before everything else. Because you, you're not going to build muscle while you're injured because you've got a constant stress in the body. You're not going to lose fat because you're injured. Your mental state's going to be, as you guys have already noted, in a poor position because you're injured and you're in constant pain, which means it's a lot easier to throw things like nutrition out the window and just, yeah, do whatever. Yeah. And if you're— and then if you're hungry and stressed and in pain What are you gonna do?

Super—

what you want?

Super inflamed as well from the injury.

But at the end of the day, so yeah, then recovery just becomes less and less, right?

Yeah.

And that's when you can't just eat what you want and just be like, oh yeah, and then you don't do your stuff, and then you don't do your rehab, and then just get sloppy, and then you don't know where to start, and then you're back to it, and 25 years later you've got no range of movement. Yeah, exactly. 100%.

That's it. In terms of building confidence back for people in the gym once they've suffered an injury What are your thoughts on the pain threshold that they should push to with the specific area that's injured to help them start to make progress with that injury? So what I mean by that is, obviously, if we use your situation as an example, Maddie, there has to come a point where you have to start to load up that tissue. Yeah, in an isolated fashion to start to build that specific strength back.

Yeah.

What is the pain tolerance that you are allowing yourself to go to? Yeah, because I think in an instance where you've had an injury, you're not just going to start to rehab that, that tissue and it's going to be completely pain-free because there's obviously damage there, there's inflammation there, correct? There's blood products in there that are— yes, scar tissue in there. So there's probably going to be some level of discomfort in the early stage of rehab that from a mental perspective can be quite challenging for some people to overcome. They might look at that and be like, oh, it's only going to make— it's just making it worse. I feel it, so this isn't beneficial. Do you think that's correct, or do you think there has to be a scale where it's okay if it's a 1 to 3, that's fine? If it starts to go beyond the 3 and it starts to become quite painful, then obviously we stop there and we just keep it at that lower threshold.

Yeah. So With mine, I— mine was obviously pretty basic to start off with. And realistically, you want to look at it just what you said, and starting between 1 to 3 pain threshold. If it maintains like that, you might do 4 sets of a certain exercise and it's okay, it's not getting worse, perfect, fantastic. I think if it starts to get worse as they go on, then I think, okay, we need to pull back on that. Maybe we need to drop the load or something. Maybe we need to drop the sets or the range. Something needs to just give a little bit. With mine, as I've gone along through the weeks, we've started to incorporate new exercises, but I've actually— and this is the other point— the intensity's increased each week because I need to get stronger. So I need to put more load onto the leg extension, my squat, those type of things, because realistically there's more of a time frame. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if I go back to playing without doing it, then the chances of me redoing it again are going to be a lot higher. So when you have clients coming here and, you know, it's just working within their means, and if it means limiting their range of motion— so everyone's got back injury and they're doing some rack pulls but it's super lightweight, just the bar, and okay, that's what you're working with and your pain's 2 out of 10, and it's like, hey, sweet, I'm not going to get you deadlifting right now.

Because I suppose it's integrating those movement patterns back in and getting them feeling safe and actually being able to load up those tissues. Tyrone said earlier we've got to eventually start to progressively overload and add some kind of weight bearing back into the area that's been injured in the first instance, right?

And if you did it like through doing a conventional deadlift or something like that, through doing your back, then it's okay, address the issue let's just pull it back. And I think the hardest bit— I know for me, and most likely for you guys— is regressing yourselves. And I think Mark's been probably the big culprit of that with his bicep and stuff like that, and other injuries with his squat. I think regressing people back and just getting them to understand that, look, we need to pull you back a little bit. Reason being is if we do it again, you're going to re-injure yourself. Let's just integrate those movement patterns back in where you're actually hinging properly or squatting properly or benching properly, that's going to make them move better. And then realistically, when they go to do it in the future, they're not going to get injured.

And I think just going on, if it's around a joint, if it's, if it's a back, if it's a back injury or a knee injury, it's just looking at, okay, let's get everything strong around it. Let's— and then we can look at going, you know, it may be integrating bigger movements. So you might— let's say someone's got a knee Okay, let's get some— let's do some leg curls, let's do some leg extensions, some calf raises, all the things that are going to impact the knee and how that knee tracks. Or even some— to be fair, even some making sure your glutes are quite active because that'll help with hip stabilization. And then you can, once you're feeling pretty confident, pretty competent on that, then you can integrate those bigger movements. And again, it's actually on that regression, like how far do you need to regress? As far as you need to. Yeah, is how long is a piece of string?

Yeah, and I think on Maddie's point with, with Mark, and I'm exactly the same, like, I find it hard to not push myself to return faster. Like, with my injury, it was supposed to be 16 weeks, and it was best case scenario 12. And in my head, I was like, okay, we'll do 10. I was like, some— somebody's got to break, break the average and do it sooner. So like, I was always I suppose, willing to put myself at that risk of pushing more. And I think not everybody's wired that way, right? Some people have a much more cautious approach, like Tyrone said earlier. People might touch the area or feel the slightest little thing in the area and steer away and freak out. Whereas for me personally, I'm kind of like, nah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna push to the limit and try and get back sooner. And that's not necessarily the best approach either. But I think another thing to consider within that is also somebody's base level of strength, where they're at as well, in terms of what your starting point looks like. So obviously for the likes of me and yourself, we already had a very good base to work from regardless of the injury, which means that we could probably start to push harder sooner as long as the majority of symptoms have subsided. It allows us to start to ramp things up a little bit earlier, whereas I think with clients that process might be a little bit slower, whether it is more that mental aspect and getting across the line of, oh, but I still feel it when I do X, or whatever that might be. And going back to what you said in terms of regressions, it's okay, let's just start with what's super comfortable where you feel no stress, no strain on the area whatsoever. We'll start there, we'll build build some base level strength with that, and then we'll make your next progression. Whereas for me, I was like, man, just let me start deadlifting. Yeah, when I've got a grade 4 hamstring rupture, which is just stupid.

Well, my biggest— going back to what you just said with regressing yourself, and I did mine, and 6 weeks— or I got told I was 8 to 12 weeks till I'm coming back. So sweet, 8 to 12 weeks, back playing, awesome, normal. Then I got told after the surgery, 2 weeks in, that can't actually start loading the bad quad until week 6. I'm thinking 6 weeks of strengthening my quad, that's not long. So realistically, it's 16 weeks what you just said. And it goes back to as well, like finding that area where it's like, okay, does that hurt? No. Okay, perfect, let's go ahead with that. Sometimes, and I've done it before, where I've touched the area and it just might be a muscle contraction. Yeah, but you, because you've got that fear in your head, and that's what T said before, you've got the fear in your head of, oh, I'm gonna do it again, am I gonna do it again? And just relax. It's muscle contraction, it's not you doing it again. You can't do it again from walking. Yeah, so just chill out.

Yeah, I think the, the beauty of being in the gym is you're fully in control of, yeah, what you do and how you load it and whether you challenge yourself more or regress things a little bit further. Whereas if it's return to play and you're on the field and it's a lot more unpredictable, then you obviously want to have built up that confidence that the area is fully rehabbed and it's where it needs to be to get back to that. Because there's instances that happen where you are completely out of control.

Yeah.

And I think for clients, let's say, being able to manage those constraints a lot more specifically when we're in the gym should help build that confidence a lot sooner for them because we can manage things accordingly and progress, regress, whereas— where we see fit, should I say.

Yeah, but I think as well, just getting them, like, even forcing them to progress as they're comfortable.

Yeah.

And just pushing them outside their comfort zone will then give them the confidence to— when they're walking around day to day, let's say they've done their ankle And I had a client that did their ankle and just building that confidence, walking around and not being afraid of falling over the tram tracks like they did initially. It's like, okay, you're in a better place now. We're going to get you there and it's, you're going to be better off than you were the first time because more often than not, again, unless you have that real self-drive, you, a lot of people will steer away from it and go, oh, no, I've, that, that, that, let's just leave it there. I've got pain. What sort of pain? And I think those constant questions that a lot of us will ask— what sort of pain is it? It's just, it's like, I think you're okay. That's, that's, that looks like your calf is working, right, on the calf raise, which is going to help strengthen your ankle, right? That's not a— that's not any— that's probably not a pain you need to be worried about right now. So I think just, yeah, doing those things and helping push people outside their comfort zone and progress them even when they feel like they might not want to So I think there's always going to be a bit of give and take as well. Yeah, it's going to give people that more confidence around.

It comes down to trusting the practitioners and the people you're working with that they're doing the right things to help you progress. So whether it's us from the strength elements and progressively overloading specific exercises, or the advice that the physiotherapist gives in that initial stage of starting to work back towards something and having the confidence in those people who are trying to help you, that they know the parameters at which they're progressing you are correct for you. But then also having the body awareness to bring up when you are feeling certain things, whether you think it's good or bad, making sure that you make your coach aware if you are feeling—

it's communication.

Yeah, 100%. Like, you might be feeling a little bit of discomfort But then us as a coach might say, hey, look, that's to be expected, that's normal. If it gets worse than that, and if it gets to— like we talk about pain threshold— if you feel like it's getting 4 or 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, or you, you don't feel like you can do any more reps or whatever it might be, like, communicate that to us because then we can adapt and modify the rehab process based on those parameters as well.

Even the recovery process, like, you feel like that you you can't move the next day. Like, how are you recovering from what we did as well? And it's—

yeah, going off that, that's— you want the muscle to fatigue eventually. Not maybe not at the start. Like, I know when I did mine, I didn't— we wanted no fatigue whatsoever. But eventually you want your muscle that's injured to fatigue, because realistically that's a stress on the muscles, and then it's gonna cause adaptation, stronger tissue tolerance, correct?

Yeah, but so if we can, like, nutrition is important, regressing and progressing over the injury. And then overall, I think just strength training, whether it be as a preventative measure or as a recovery measure, is going to be your best bet. And that goes whether it be for tendons, muscles, joints, bones. Even you look at the statistics of the elderly and those that do a hip, the less likely— the more strength training they have done in the past, the less likely they are to injure a hip in a fall, and then if they have, then they do need surgery, then the better recovery time they're going to look at as well. So it's not just for athletes like you guys or for bodybuilders or powerlifters, it's for general life, I think, at the same time.

Yeah, definitely. So yeah, awesome. I think just in, in closing, let's just discuss some supplements that might be able to support certain injuries. So if we look at more kind of bone type injuries, what type of supplements would you prescribe to help support the recovery of those things?

Uh, I think the big ones you'll be looking at is just overall bone strength. A big thing is one is going to be strength training, but supplement-wise is going to be your vitamin D, your magnesium, calcium as well. So I think an all-around multivitamin plus some added vitamin D, or if you're outside, just get in the sun as well. A good magnesium You're looking at like a magnesium bisglycinate or an orotate, um, yeah, one of those ones are going to be beneficial. I do have a real left-field one—

deer antler velvet. Oh yeah, I've heard about that.

What's that one?

Yeah, yeah, deer antler velvet. It's made from deer antlers. Yeah, so it sounds quite cool. Yeah, don't worry, don't worry.

I've never used it, but I have heard about it.

For all the ethical people, deers shed their antlers and they grow new ones, so—

oh, do they?

Yeah, they do. Yeah, yeah, I looked into it because someone actually asked me That's good. So it's actually made from deer antler, and I think it's an Eastern herb. Anyways, I've used it with someone that had— it was in an ATP Labs product that I used to use, and it really helped some— a client that I had years ago, even before I was here. He's got a lot of information and help with the range of motion on a knee that he had multiple surgeries on as well. So I rate it. It can be quite difficult to get, but yeah, I've used it before and I like it. Another good one is your omega-3s. Yeah, omega-3s can help with the, obviously, inflammation, bring the inflammation down. But there are studies showing that it will help improve range of motion as well. Then a big one is curcumin. I mean, the list goes on at the same time. Yeah, yeah.

So that touches on bone issues. What about like muscle, ligaments, tendon type issues?

I think much of the same. Really, I think much of the same. Like, maybe throw a bit of collagen in the mix, a bit of collagen in there. Yeah, a bit of collagen. That was going to be the other one I was going to say, a bit of collagen. But definitely, again, I think the basics are going to be the best ones. So your omega-3s, your magnesium, your multivitamins, making sure you get them around all the micronutrients. And then those anti-inflammatories, again, the omega-3s and your curcumins. And then for muscles and tendons, a bit of collagen never goes astray. So I don't know, you guys got any other ones? Any other ones that you've been—

covers most of the bases, I think.

Yeah, and then if you want to get real fancy, a bit of Dyracne Velvet.

Okay, gentlemen, I think we'll wrap things up here. Thank you both for joining me today. It was nice of Matty to finish his haircut a little bit short, get here on time. I think you might be going back to get that one finished off tomorrow.

It was a quick job I had to get in.

That's it, right? I can tell.

I thought James just did it at the back with a piece of glass.

For the listeners or the viewers, if they want to find you guys, where are they looking, Tyrone?

You find me on Instagram, coach_folino. That's F-O-L-I-N-O. Otherwise, you'll find me down at Enterprise Fitness, 381 Swan Street, where I generally spend a lot of my time.

Yeah, awesome. And for you, Marty?

Yeah, same. So on Instagram, Matt Crooks PT, and then 381 Swan Street, Richmond.

Beautiful. Thank you guys for joining me on another takeover of the Wolf's Den. As you can see, we do have one of our Enterprise Diet books in the frame here, which has just been released by the owner and founder Mark Ottobre. So if you do want to learn more about nutrition, then feel free to purchase the book. You can either purchase it in-house at Enterprise if you're based in Melbourne, or theenterprisediet.com is another place you can go to get your copy. Until next time, train hard, supplement smart. Very good testing.