The Blueprint for Winning Your Comp Prep - Mark Ottobre & Tyrone Folino

I wanted to bring Tyrone along as one of our master coaches. And Tyrone over the years has gotten some phenomenal results. And recently he coached a fellow by the name of Chris, and Chris won everything, everything. He won 7 comps, and I actually think it's one of the best transformations Tyrone's ever helped a client produce here. And really because Chris came in a guy who had a training base. He'd been training for a few years, but he didn't look like he looked on— like the way he looked when he came in 6 months ago to the way he looks now, they're two different humans. And, you know, Tyrone did— he did a lot. You know, when we talk about going over and above for a client and the magic recipe, I think it was a beautiful transformation. So let's welcome Tyrone first of all. Hi Tyrone, how are you today? How about—

I'm good. Hello everyone. Hello.

So you had Chris. So tell us a little bit about Chris.

Chris, well, a bit about Chris. So Chris walked in, he'd had coaches before, basically before, sorry, coaches before. He owns two businesses, he's a pastry chef, works a shit ton of hours, stress levels are through the roof. Yeah, he's had a few coaches before and basically has been obsessed with doing bodybuilding comps for years. He brought me like a— it was like a scrapbook. It was his dream. He wanted to get up on stage, but he basically felt like he was just on the hamster wheel going round and round. So yeah, that was, that was the goal.

He basically said, in short, he was the guy that sees someone do it, does a comp, he's like, I want to do this, and year after year after year, disappointed because he never, never really was able to. Correct. Yeah. So you're working with kind of a blank canvas. So pretty compliant or very compliant? How would you describe it?

Yeah, he was, he was willing to do whatever it took. But at the same time, there were different parameters. Like, he could only train 4 days a week, so it wasn't because of work, because of work. Yeah, there was a lot of things, a lot of parameters that we had to work around with work and stress and, um, stress levels and things like that. But at the same time, I— we got into the deal where I said to him, I said, all right, we can do 4 days a week now, but once you do this comp— we put parameters in place. So not only do we look for— we set a goal for a comp date, but then we set a goal for a second comp, which which is next year, so October next year. So we, we set like a 3-year goal.

So with that, if I interrupt, um, I imagine a client who's had a lot of disappointment like this has some trust issues, as in, will the plan work for me? Did you get any of that for him, or did you get the trust immediately?

This is how I gained trust.

Okay, so for our podcast listeners, Tyrone's just— I set up a spreadsheet that is very, very detailed. So I just want to talk us through this spreadsheet a bit so the guys anybody in the audience and at home listening to this can, uh, so idea.

Yeah, so I set up— this is for— I mainly use for comp prep, and you can use for anybody, but I— this is how I set up comp prep and, and photoshoot clients. And I said to him, this is the date, this is where we need to work back from. So we worked from 7th of April, and basically I said to him, uh, you need to put on weight before you can compete. And I give people the option, especially just pause you on a few things.

You said to him you need to put on weight before you compete. I imagine I've got a lot of people coming for comp. They think the process is I'm just going to get lean.

Yeah.

What was, what was his response to, hey, I'm gonna— you're gonna put on weight?

Well, I give people the ultimatum. I'm like, do you want to compete or you want to be competitive? Anybody can compete. You can get on right now, but you're going to look like shit and you're not going to be competitive, and you're going to turn around, you're going to go, oh, I probably should have done things differently. So that's the option I give people. Do you want to compete or you want to be competitive?

So you showed him the, the, the roadmap Yes. And the way you develop trust was you're showing him the roadmap and you're backing up what you're saying with data of this is what we're going to track and this is how we're going to do it. And this is what this spreadsheet is.

And this is what this spreadsheet is. Yes. So I then calculate on an average going, okay, this is where you're currently sitting from a body fat percentage. This is where I've estimated you're probably going to go to. And this is where I want your weight to go to. I'm predicting your weight will go. So basically we got— he started at 77 kilos. I predicted he was going up to 84. He actually got up to 84.2.

Pretty good prediction.

So I base it on we want to put on roughly 1% of body weight per month, right? And that's just based on the data and research we have at the moment. Then from there, I calculate how much weight we're going to need to lose from an estimation in order to get him stage weight. And that I estimated that he was going to need to be about 72 kilos. So I calculated backwards on how much body fat we needed to— on how much weight we need to lose. And how much time it was going to take. Now with Chris, we— I took a relatively conservative approach of half a kilo a week, whereas some people I might take an approach of a bit more aggressive at the start and then back it off as they get leaner to try and preserve as much lean mass.

So with the weight that you said he needs to put on, he— can we just go back to how much did he— so he came in at— what was his total weight that he came in at?

77.

77. And at the end of that 77 build, he got up to 82.1, 84.

84.

So he got up to— so he put on some, some size. Yeah, you put on some, some size.

Yeah.

And how long was that phase?

That was from— so 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8— I think that was probably about 11 weeks.

11 weeks. Okay, so I just want to point this out to the, to, you know, the trainers here, is client comes in, they think, I'm going to have a body transformation in 12 weeks, and then Tyrone says, yes, you will have a body transformation, but probably not the one that you were expecting. We're going to do 12 weeks of building you up. We're going to put on, what, 7, 8 kilos?

Yep.

And in that time, and then we're going to talk about dieting you down. How does that sound? Would your client say yes or would they say no?

If you paint the bigger picture, they're going to say yes.

All right, so paint the bigger picture, and then Tyrone puts them into the cutting phase. So the cutting phase, tell us about the expectations in the the cutting phase.

So with the cutting phase, this is where I get a bit more detailed. So with the build, I will leave things a bit more— not, not to chance, but I'll take things as they come. So I'll monitor weight and I'll monitor how much body fat they put on. So you can see here, Chris didn't get above 13% body fat. So I'll monitor that and then I'll increase calories periodically as they need to be, with either when either weight stagnates or they start getting leaner, etc., um, or they adapt, and then I'll start increasing from there. Whereas when it comes to the actual cutting phase, right, I'm a bit more specific. So from the very beginning, Chris had his calories laid out all the way until the end, right? So you can see here, and then I— so I calculated it, I calculated his deficit all the way through. So if you look at Chris, he actually didn't even go below a 20% deficit, right? Because he was working, and because he was working, because the output was so high, right? We didn't need to take him that low.

Let's talk about that for a second.

He also trains hard.

Yeah. He does. So what, when he came in, so original Chris, you know, the blank canvas, so to speak, what was he doing? What was his calories at? This is an indicator. Was it sporadic?

He was— no, he's kind of— he had set calories. The biggest tweak that I made with Chris was just changing his macros around.

Okay.

He was on like, and this is what his old coach gave him, he was on like 127 grams of fat, a couple hundred grams of carbs, and I can't remember, it was like, I've got it written down, it was like 150 grams of protein. Yeah. And then, so basically what I did with Chris was I— first thing I did was I actually just rejigged his macros.

So this is the nutrition aspect. So in, in saying that, calorie-wise, are you saying it was somewhat the same?

From, from a calorie perspective, I kept them the same, and all I did was rejig his macros.

Now, so just so we have some kind of indicative data, I was talking yesterday to the, to the folks about how we build someone's calories up over time. So did he start, I don't know, let's say when he's like week 1, did he start let's say at what, 1,600 calories, and then he got up to 2,000, 3,000?

We got him, we got him as high as about 3,000, 3,200.

3,000, 3,200.

And I would build him up probably about 200 calories every, every time he either maintained or got leaner. I'd build him up about 200 calories.

You built him out to say 3,000 3,300, just round it up. What was, what was, but what did he start at, 3,300?

No, he started about, I think about 2,200. 2,200.

So you see how we're building people's nutrition up. So he's, and that's what I was saying yesterday about how you have the theoretical baseline, then you have the actual baseline, and you really only know someone's actual baseline by testing and measuring because all calorie formulas are theoretical until they get tested. And as we found, you found with Chris, is that he actually required more calories than what you may have theorized or thought necessarily. And then you track his body fat and is this on track? And then you tweak, correct?

Yeah.

So you said, um, he was on 127 grams of fat. Did you lower his fats and bring his carbs up?

Yeah, that's all I did. I, and I think I put his protein up a little bit, so I went to about 2, 2.5 grams per kilo. Um, and I brought his fats down to— I usually work people on fats of about 0.8 per gram of body weight, 0.8 grams per kilo of body weight. And then I just fill the rest in with carbs. Do you go off lean, like how much lean muscle, like 0.25 grams of protein per lean gram?

Just repeat the question for the audio. What was it? Oh, sorry.

So are they going off their body weight or off their lean muscle mass?

So the question is, are you going off their body weight or are you going off their lean muscle mass?

So with protein, I just go off body weight.

So off body weight.

Off body weight. Easier. Yeah, it's easier. Most of the time, even with calories, I just go off body weight. A lot of time too.

Okay, so that's how you mapped out his nutrition. Now what was the thought process behind— so you, we had a phase, 12 weeks, essentially 11 weeks, we're going to build him up. You've put on 8 kilos now, he's got mass on him. How much did he put on body fat?

Yeah, he went from— so he started—

notice just on that, right? Notice how casual Tyrone was like, yeah, you put on body fat, no stress, it's easy. Yeah. Okay, so you put on— how much body fat did he put on?

Uh, 3%, right?

So how much muscle mass did he put on?

7 kilos.

7 kilos, right? So you— the phrase there, obviously, with the client is, you give me 3% body fat, I give you 7 kilos of muscle. Do you want to make the trade? Some clients will be like, no. But hang on, wait, you've got 7 kilos of muscle, it's going to change the way you look completely. So if you are wanting to compete and have a high-level transformation, you need to make this, this trade. So yeah, continue. We're going to have a good—

a good— a good way I like to phrase it and is for people to envision them putting on 7 kilos. It's like, imagine you go to the shop, you buy 7 kilos chicken breast, slap that on your body. How do you think you're gonna look? And they go, oh wow, that's a lot. Like, yeah, that's a lot. 7 kilos is a lot. But at the same time, you also just, you also just need to back it up and go, well, you're not going to put on as much lean mass if you continue doing what you've been doing, right? There's so much research to show that you need to put on a little bit of body fat for especially trained individuals in order to put on that lean mass. Obviously you don't want to put on too much because then you're just putting on more fat than lean mass, but you want to put it on incremental at a time. And that's why breaking up and going, okay, we're going to work on 1% a month of your body weight.

So when it did come down to cutting, what was his body fat starting out?

Uh, 13. So he got to 13 and he actually dropped pretty quickly. And you can see incrementally we got down to— oh, so he got— so he got 12.2 and we— no, 13, and then he got down to 11.5. We basically got, then over—

So what was his body fat when he started the journey?

10.

10. So he went from 10 to 13.3, but put on a lot of weight. Good weight. And then when it was time to diet, I almost see like almost instantly he got to 11.7 and then within a couple of weeks he was back at 10 and then broke 9.7.

He went 11.5.

That looks like 4 or 5 weeks.

Where's that?

You went from 12.2 to 9.7.

That's what I predicted. He was actually at 13.

Oh, he was at 13?

And then he went to 11.5 in a week, right? From the first week.

You say Chris is more naturally ectomorphic?

Yeah, so he's very tall, he's like 6'3".

Yeah, long levers, long levers, classic ectomorphic physique.

So we'll drop weight pretty rapidly, which is, which is also the reason why I looked at him when he first came in and I looked at the ratio of his macros. And just from experience, I knew that he would do, would do a lot better on high carb.

He was eating like a meso, uh, endo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And anything like an endomorphic physique is generally going to do better with high fat, high protein, low carb. The ectomorphics is always going to do better with much higher carb, moderate protein, moderate fat, for sure. So speaking about the diet, right, was it 6 meals? Was it 5 meals? 3 meals? How'd you map that, that type of things out? I mean, he said— you said he was already tracking, he was already doing things. So basically, and what was the feedback? Was it more more food than he expected?

So much more food.

So much more food than he expected.

So much more food. Yeah. Um, it got to the point, like, you need to sit here. Like, I gave Chris the option of some cereal because he just couldn't fit the food in. And this is, this is on 2,600 calories.

So let me just pause there, right? So like, he comes in, he's doing what he's doing, right? Um, this is what I'm doing. Do you change everything from day one? Are you changing everything slowly? Are you like, no, this is how it's going to be today? Like, what's the process?

I will— and I do the same thing with everybody— I take what they've got and I make the smallest amount of adjustments possible. If someone's eating 2 meals, I will say to them, can you eat 3? Because the, the gap that you have in between your meals is going to be large and you're going to start to get hungry. By the time you start to get hungry, right, you're just going to start looking for food. The hungrier you are, the poorer choices you're going to make.

So what— how many meals did he start up at? Chris was already on He was on 4. So you went into 5? No, you kept him at 4. Kept him at 4. And then what did you do? So was he— you just simply eating too much fat and you just changed the macros around?

Just changed the macros around, gave him— yeah, just changed the macros around and gave him less fat, more carbs. And then it ended up being— he was already having some intra-workout carbs, which I kept, and then I just gave the option between like intra-workout carbs on a training day and then cereal on a non-training day.

So like every week we're adding food, is that how you went? Like measure, add food, measure, add food?

Measure, add food. Yeah.

And what were your adds? So how did you add— so, but was it like a macrogram or was it a food serving? How do you think about that?

I would go with a calorie. So I'd add on roughly 200 calories at a time.

Yep.

And I'd break that down to how many micrograms of carbs, right? And then I would split that up and I would talk to Chris like, okay, let's add some more food. Where can you fit more food? Where are you hungry? What's easiest? And then generally be either— first I'd focus either around training first, before and after training, and then I'd focus in the evening to help with sleep, and then basically wherever else was easiest for him to get it in.

And what was his carb of choice, so to speak, or your carb of choice?

So I generally give everyone the options, um, between white potato, sweet potato, colored rice, or white rice. And then depending on how they handle gluten, it would either be gluten-free pasta or normal pasta. And then I give them a choice. So it depends on the person as well, if they like choice and they don't like eating the same thing every day. Like, Chris had very, very good taste buds, so he liked a bit of variation. So I gave him the choice between sweet potato, white potato, rice, and pasta.

Now, I know there's other clients you've had— Cristiano comes to mind— where they haven't been able to eat the amount of carbs that they've needed, and you've done things like sorbet, lollies. Do you have a stance on, like, let's say for For example, Chris is like, well, Tyrone— well, I mean, there's two instances, right? There's instance one, which is, Tyrone, I just can't eat it anymore. And you might use like the maple syrups, the honeys, the sorbet. Or there could be, you know, I really like lollies. Can you include lollies?

I— we— I do.

Or quote unquote like junky type of food. What's your stance there?

Yes, to an extent. So there needs to be a base, and I like that 80 to 90% base of whole nutritious foods. and then you can add little bits on top that are processed foods if you have the calories to go— the calories to spend. I don't like it if someone's dieting because— yes and no. If someone's dieting and they don't have enough calories to spend, I'm like, it's like buying a Gucci bag when you haven't got lights on at home, right? Don't spend your calories on the crap when you're not looking after the bills. So you've got to keep things from a nutrition— a micro, a macro, and a micronutrient perspective upheld before you can add on the nice glittery things. Yeah, because calories are going to determine how you— what you weigh. The macro is going to determine how you look at that weight, and the micronutrients are going to determine how you feel at that weight. Now, that's not to say, obviously, for comp prep, when you're dieting, there's going to be a certain point where you're just going to feel like crap because you're so lean. But we want to look after a micronutrient level as much as we can.

Uh, what was the lowest that he went to in terms of calories? 3?

2100.

Which is, uh, by a lot of coaches' standards, pretty high still.

Well, put in perspective, he was higher than I was. Yeah, we were competing at the same time and he had about 600 more calories than me.

And so what was his weight? So just so we get a real good snapshot, he started at, I think you said 77?

77.

And about 10% body fat?

Yeah.

And what did he finish up on in terms of like at his pre-show?

72 kilos.

72 kilos, right. So he lost about 5 kilos overall.

Yeah.

But put on— what was the lean muscle mass?

Uh, he put on, um, a couple kilos of lean mass in the end.

Right. Um, so quite, quite significant change. So can we just see— so show the folks like the before and after photo side by side so you can see?

So that was before. This was—

yes, Tomo, while we get that up, what was the, the question. When you're, uh, doing the, that initial build phase, do you have a rule of thumb for the ratio of body fat to lean mass? I'm just going to repeat the question for the audio. Um, so when you're doing— if I get the question right— when you're doing a rebuild phase, do you have a ratio of body fat increase to lean muscle mass increase?

I, I give people like a top end and I'm like, okay, we don't want to exceed this percentage of body fat given the amount of time that we have or need to bring you back down. So for Chris, it was 13% because I said to him, we need to get to you about 3% body fat to get on stage. So I've got 10% to play with, and I've got 10% to lose. But yeah, this is, this is the week before— this is the week of his first comp.

Do you have the photo where you took here where the lighting was a bit better, or any of him on on stage where you can show the folks?

Yeah. No? Yeah.

Oh, you— yeah, bring, bring those up. Um, questions around this?

Yes.

So we use skinfolds. So we use the BioSig 12-site skinfold test. That honestly is the most informative measurement tool that you'll find— skinfolds. And again, the reason, as I spoke yesterday about is we're able to ascertain, because every, every site corresponds to a different hormone and something else that's going on. And if you understand the patterns of what's going on, it's, it's data. It's not to say that, like, let's say, you know, a high umbilical indicates high stress and like that's it, you know, you've got high stress. It's not to say it's like correlation is causation, but, you know, there are, there are patterns. Let's say, for example, if you've been tracking the same way and let's say your calf and tricep go up, that is a telltale sign and everything else stays the same, that's a telltale sign of overtraining. So we're able to tell through skinfolds indicative of a bigger story that's happening to be able to manage the athlete better because your skinfolds will also tell you indicators of overtraining. That's why I'm huge on making sure we have a whole assessment criteria here for Enterprise where, you know, every trainer here will do training for some weeks, if not months, on being proficient at the skinfold testing. They'll pass with James, and then to see clients, they also need to pass with me. And once they pass, we can go, yep, stamp of approval, you can now assess clients. Because there, there is, there is a way to do it. You want to be, you want to be checked off. And it's just, it's just a great tool, um, and it's, it's one where I don't think we'd be able to get the same level of information and feedback from our clients if we didn't use it.

So if you're— if we're not here and we don't have someone like you to run by, like, how would you recommend— if you say that it does take a lot of training, how would you start tracking that out?

Uh, learn, to be honest. Um, so I've got all the videos up on YouTube, so I do have all the videos up on YouTube, and then it's like, well, when you book your time here, uh, you know, you come down, we can assess you and show you one-on-one, which you've done before. Um, yeah, and then, and then really like polish up on those skills and learn it. I, I You know, for me to learn it, I learned it from Charles, and I went all around the world and Australia multiple times just to get time with him. And that's how I learned it, because I didn't have anyone local to, hey, you're doing this wrong, you're doing this wrong. So I had to go spend a lot of time with him. So yeah, and look, I'd say that investment for me has been definitely well worth it. And you've made the skinfold videos available freely on YouTube, so you can, um, check them out and look at the reviews and all that. They've been there for a little while. But other than that, look, uh, taking measurements— yeah, measurements is good, but it's not as exact, right? It's, it's— you're still not getting— photos are good, but I don't get the feedback of did your C.A.F. go up, because C.A.F.

correlates to sleep.

Skinfold shows your body fat, but site-specific. Yeah, it's site-specific, it's 12 sites, it's just a lot of data that it gives you. If you understand the data, then you can make a lot of better changes. It's honestly like, in terms of Charles Poliquin's contribution to the world of strength and conditioning and body, body transformation, the BioSignature I think is one of the biggest contributions. It was kind of poo-pooed for a long time because Charles did make a lot very big claims about how, you know, it was not necessarily equivalent, but the claims on around what it could tell about people's hormones. So, you know, like again, a low tricep indicates high testosterone, for example, and it is an indicator. But again, correlation isn't causation, it's only indicative data. So I'm not going to diagnose someone's hormones from a BioSignature test, but as a body composition tool, it does give me data which which I can consider in relation to all the other data that I have, like the Oura Ring, heart variability, your training, your mood, your sex drive, your digestion, everything else you're telling me. It's data. The more data I have, the more I can understand the picture. That's why I like BioSignature as a tool and skinfolds as a tool, because it gives us lots and lots of data. Makes sense. So then the question is, is there a replacement for You're not going to like this answer. No, there's not. It is what it is, right? You know, the body scan testers and all that kind of stuff, the way they interpret, let's say, even like a— it can— because I'm not using the skinfolds per se as just what your body fat is. I'm looking at the sites to be able to manage you as a client better as well. Makes sense.

Yeah, it's data.

It's data. Data is data, right? So like the more data I have, like, I mean, the alternative is that we get your bloods every week, which is impractical, your bloods or like get, you know, like get biochemical information that's happening from you. And look, there are going to be tests developed in the future where, you know, you prick, do a prick test and tells you all your bloods and, you know, unbelievably in that analysis with AI and predicted that is in the pipework, right? But it's not available today and It's super expensive and impractical to implement. So this is where the skin folds is non-invasive and very, very quick and cheap, free for me as a practitioner or these guys as practitioners to be able to do with their client. It's part of the consult, it's part of the session.

Yeah.

If the client was going to get something that they could track, like, let's say an Oura ring, I know that they are quite expensive. Would that be like a secondary tier?

So the question is, If he was going to get a client to track something like an Oura Ring, again, what are, what are we trying to track? So there are a lot of wearables out there. I, I believe— well, I use Oura Ring, I can't speak to any of the others. I believe Whoop is also pretty good. I've never used Whoop. People who use Whoop, they tell me that the benefit of Whoop is that it's more about the community. So if you have all your clients on Whoop, you can compare data with everyone.

That's—

they say that's the, the biggest benefit of Whoop. For me, I don't want to wear a band going to bed, and I find the idea of wearing a band going to bed really annoying. The Oura Ring for me is personal preference. I like the data. The data is almost always spot on, always spot on. I get the data that I need and it's non-invasive. And that's the biggest thing is I use it because it's not invasive. I can just whack it on and I don't have to think about it. No, I don't wear it all the time. I actually hate wearing rings because you can see how big my fingers are and like I've got kind of cartoonishly big hands. Any type of things around my fingers I just really don't like because I have the biggest, you know, the Oura Ring sizes. I had to get the biggest one, right? Because yeah, I've got cartoonishly big hands.

So what was the total weeks to get that transformation?

It was about 6 months. Uh, look here, 32. Just over 7 months.

Yeah, so if we just bring the before photo up and then the after, the one on stage.

So that was— that's his before and after, and then that's the stage photo.

So that's him on stage. You can see an incredible, incredible transformation of muscle mass, lean. Um, so, Torin, let's talk about his training, right? What was— what would you classify him as? Was he intermediate? Was he a beginner?

Um, he was an intermediate.

Intermediate.

He was an intermediate. So The way I look at it, so basically Chris got the pleasure of—

Now, when you said to him he's an intermediate, or the way you approached this, was that, was he bummed to hear that news? Did he think he was more advanced? Was he—

I made it really good. I actually said to him that he's one step ahead of most people that come in.

Right.

And that was the fact that he could squat and he could deadlift.

Great.

So he basically got skipped ahead a phase, um, in what I normally—

so first program in, you've never trained him before, what is phase weeks 1 to week 4, I'm assuming? What does that look like?

So for Chris, phase 1 to 4, so first 3 phases I'm usually pretty, pretty set with most people, and I, um, so Chris went straight to number 2, and that was 6 to 8, which is advanced GPP, advanced general preparation. So he went to 6 to 8, so he got, he got back squats, uh, leg curls.

He's using a relative strength system for his A's. So 6-day, 3 days.

Yeah. And that was, it was an upper/lower split?

Just, what was the question over here?

What, so you have advanced GPPs and then?

So there's beginner GPP, intermediate GPP, and more advanced GPP.

So would your advanced GPP be more like you'd go into like deadlifts and squats, back to the fast and stuff?

That was when we, yeah, I would actually, one, it's more of a relative strength rep range. So the functional hypertrophy 6 to 8, the traditional functional hypertrophy rep range. That 6 to 8, mostly because people can actually put a bit of load behind it, right? Whereas that the newbies, I really usually start them on that 8 to 10 or 8 to 12 just because they haven't got that strength to be able to go towards failure between 6 to 8 reps.

So we've been talking about this this morning. So basically the vector with beginners, you're using volume over load. When someone becomes more advanced, you can drop the volume a little bit, but you're using a bit of higher load. Makes sense. So yeah, what we see here is phase 1. In summary, you've got 6 to 8 reps, 4 sets as the primary.

Yeah.

And what, 6 exercises?

6 exercises, 4 sets on the primary, 4 sets on the secondary, and then 3 on the accessories.

So really basic compound exercises, nothing too fancy. All right, so let's, let's move to, to phase 2. Where are we at with phase 2?

Phase 2 was actually quite similar. But we used more of a descending rep range. So we went to— so you can actually see exercises are pretty much the same, right?

But when you say pretty much the same, variation was slight? Like, did you go from a flat bench to an incline bench? Yeah, things like with dumbbells to barbells, split squat to a walking lunge, right?

So it's still single leg. Back squat was still the same, but he had a pause. Yeah, um, leg curl went from 2 legs to 2 up, 1 down.

Um, so if we just pause on that point, just to— because I was talking about this yesterday— is the pattern is actually the same, but there is variance. And the variance could be dorsiflex to plantarflex, correct? Uh, pronated to supinated. But, you know, pronated chin up to supinated chin up, obviously pronated's harder, but the pattern fundamentally is still somewhat the same.

It's still a vertical pull.

Still a vertical pull. So we're not, we're not reinventing the wheel and doing much. But again, you're still using that functional approach for your rep range, getting into into a little bit of relative strength in that 6, 6 rep range towards the end. Yeah, so you're pushing. So see how the progression is? That's what I was saying yesterday about when you write a plan, it can't be like, you know, he's gone from functional hypertrophy— he didn't go from functional hypertrophy to strength endurance in 13 reps, right, and above. He went from— the reps are starting to come down. Now let's see what he does in phase 3. What's phase 3? Just so you can really start to understand how we plan out reps.

Phase 3 was actually quite similar. Yeah, so we went from 8-8, 6-6. I actually brought his volume down. Yep. Um, so instead of 4 sets on his primaries, um, on his secondaries, I brought him down to 3 sets. Reason being was because Chris trains to failure. He doesn't need that extra volume. And it was pretty easy where we just— I used descending rep ranges quite a lot just to incorporate a variance in reps and actually increase the load. So it went to an 8-6-4, but at the same time The way I like to do it is, so what he does for 8 and 6 and 4, he then— so his 6 reps on week 1 becomes his 8 reps on week 2. His 4 reps on week 1 becomes his 6 reps. So he's actually increasing the load, so you're getting stronger.

You're using basically linear progression in terms of loading, right? So that, that very much makes sense. But again, I think I want to point out here, just so people are really understanding, is that the programming— you started at basically 6 to 8, then moved to 8, 8, 6, so he's getting into the heavier rep ranges. Then now phase 3, you're doing what, 8, 6, 4? So now he's touching, uh, relative strength rep ranges, but he's also building upon that. And the reason why you've brought down volume is because he's able to create enough damage inside the muscle and not needing extra volume because you're ramping on the load vector. So again, we spoke about this volume and load. You're pushing, you're pushing him towards higher loads and really making sure those sets count. And again, the— what else? Before, there's an inverse relationship between what? Sets and reps. And an inverse relationship between what else? Volume and repeating effort and intensity, right?

So yeah, it was all, it was all actually very similar. The only thing— so you will notice is this is where— so within phase 3, I actually move things to a little bit too— it's a bit more undulating. So you can see on his first leg day he went 8-6-4, and on his second leg day after deadlifts he went to a 10-8-6. So the reps actually became— were a little bit higher on his second ones.

So then you can see supplementary work too, because his primary was deadlifts. You've made a consideration for the posterior chain, obviously being the deadlifts being a lot more neural taxing. You've gone to a higher rep range on the supplementary work.

Yeah, correct. I'm not expecting to back up another 4 sets of 4 to 6 on the hack squat because you'd just be cooked after that.

Yeah, really using the supplementary work as, as assistance.

And then phase 4 is where I went into more of a daily undulating periodization. So you can see—

let's talk about that too. Wait, you, you finish that thought, and because I know we've got a question about daily undulating.

So you can see here, so lower body 1 is the example. So on the hack squat, we went 12, 10, 8, and then he's basically high rep ranges, drop sets. So like 8, 8, 8 on the leg extension. And then on his second lower body, he was deadlifting lower reps, 6, 6, 4. Leg curls were 6 to 8, 8 to 10. So it was one— I had a basically a high volume day and then a low volume day. So, and then I would use those—

let's just back up a sec, right? So it's just because I think I just missed it, right? So the high volume day was how many sets?

Same, same amount of sets.

Same amount of sets, but the reps were high. So what were the reps differences?

So 12, 10, 8, they were basically between 10 and 15, right? And included intensifiers.

Yep.

And then the lower volume day was 6 and under, right? For the primary, and then 8.

You're using very similar movement patterns as well. Yes.

So he was still deadlifting.

What was the purpose of you doing that?

Because I didn't want to cook him too much.

So this is, this is the point that I'm getting at, right? So we were talking yesterday about daily undulated periodization. And I, I feel personally the thing with daily undulated periodization, I don't like it as a label because it's kind of a catch-all phrase that puts so many things into a bucket. And really, I think when people say daily undulated periodization, is what they're talking about is what you just touched on, which is fatigue management.

Correct.

And for the most part, GenProp clients don't need daily undulated periodization. Daily undulated periodization or fatigue management really is only consideration if someone is training let's say at least 4 days a week, or they're training 3 days a week and really, really hard, and maybe their workouts are like 2-3 hours, and you're managing the, the basically the fatigue that is accumulated with the high amounts of volume that they're going to do, say for example a comp. So when we, we think about— that's why I don't like daily undulating as a frame. I like the vector, the understanding of how am I going to manage this person's fatigue, because it gives me tangible things of how I'm going to bring up, what I'm going to bring down, which is basically what you've done here with the volume. You've given him a really super hard day, but you know it's a super hard day where he's going to be cooked, fried, nearly demanding.

He's—

you're going to pair that with a lower day, a bit nicer, bit of recovery, perhaps higher reps, getting blood flushed back into the muscle, eating the nutrients into the muscle. That actually assists almost like active recovery in many ways, which has been shown. Very much so that it can speed up recovery, um, by doing that and then assisting and facilitating more hypertrophy. Am I missing anything in that picture of when you talk about daily energy line prioritization?

No, the only other time that— I mean, like you said, it is very broad, and like even myself, I use it in a variance of different ways, and it's very client dependent. And we'll speak about this before, where like, well, how do you use it? It depends. So for Chris, this was who does 4 days a week his undulating programming looks like, looks like this, where he has a more a strength, sort of strength-based day, traditionally strength-based day, followed by a more hypertrophy-based day for exactly the same reason what he said. Whereas now we're looking at lagging body parts. So now we're in a build phase, and I use it in terms of, for his chest, we have— he does chest 3 days a week, and we do a low rep range, a mid-rep range, and then a high range spread throughout the week, and then everything else is basically built around that. And at the same time, he'll have like low reps on his back, mid to high reps on his back, but he only does them twice a week. So the frequency is a little bit lower on his non-specific parts, on his non-specialized body parts, but overall the reps are still undulating to account for recovery, fatigue management, easy on his joints. So I'm not getting in, in too much too much heavy pressing on the same day, and that's just take a lot of load off his elbows and shoulders at the same time.

Got it. So I know there might be a question on this.

I'm looking.

Um, guys, what I'm thinking, like, basically saying it's more just to manage his fatigue, his joints, everything like that. Yeah, why you're using—

correct. But there's also a lot of research showing that you will gather a lot of— you will build muscle throughout a variance of rep ranges.

Yes.

So as—

and it's not necessarily that the thing I suppose with daily undulating periodization where people get it, I feel they get it wrong, is they— again, techniques and principles— they focus on the technique of daily undulating periodization and they read someone's daily undulating periodization plan online and they're like, well, I'm going to do that with my client. Except your client's a beast. And, you know, instead of needing a rest every second day, they need a rest every 4 weeks, say for example, or need every, every 3, 3 or whatever. Maybe it's too much for them. They need to rest. They need to go high-low, high-low. It's the principle behind how you're using the daily undulated periodization, which is the whole factor of how to actually use it. It's about reading the client. So in saying that, if you get a client who trains like they're smoking weed twice a week, you don't need to worry about daily undulated periodization because they don't have the intensity that's going to occur enough fatigue. If you get a beast of a client and they're really going for it every single time they come in, and they're like coming to workouts, as I said to you the other day about, you know, I had fitters come in and they'd be like, and I'd purposely get them to the point where I wanted to see them depressed to then pull back all their training, give them heaps of food, and help them supercompensate because it was part of the plan. They're the things that you need to read as a coach, is you're reading the client. So that's why I like the term fatigue management plan rather than, uh, or recovery management plan or adaptation plan rather than daily undelayed periodization, because because one implies the techniques and the other one implies the principle behind how you're going to use that technique. Does that give you more clarity? Yeah, yeah, now, now we slam dunk. Uh, you had something to add?

Okay, yeah, just back out your point. You're not giving— as your, your best saying was, you wouldn't give it to a Care Bear.

No, you wouldn't give it to a Care Bear. You wouldn't give it to a Care Bear, right? Yeah, you wouldn't give it to a Care Bear. Care Bears You need some of these techniques, you need to earn the rights, right? A lot of people have not earned the right, and for most of the clients that come in for the first time, you're not going to be able to show off special roundhouse spinning back kick off the diving board. You're going to do a jump, and they're going to get really proficient to a jump, and then if they're lucky, they're going to do a jump with maybe a clap, and that's it. And that's like, whoa, that's pretty special, right? Um, you got to earn the right to be able to do the backflips and all that type of stuff. So I just wanted to switch gears a little bit from clients. Was there any questions about Chris? You guys understanding the programming? Because that was one of the big concerns that a lot of you said at the start of this course, you wanted to understand more about programming. We've got a real example. Actually, before we do move on from Chris, can we have a look at the last 3 phases? Now It's Time is pre-comp and he's, you know, pre—

you want pre-comp?

Yeah, he's, he's what, like sub-10%? We need to get him from 10% to 5% or whatever it is. We need to get him shredded. He needs to go from lean to shredded because there's a difference between overweight, obese, overweight, a little bit chubby, uh, lean, and then from lean to shredded. These are all different phases, right? So How do we get someone from lean— looks good, already looks good— but now we need to get him to compete?

So this was second last phase before comp.

Second last phase. So can you talk us through the rep ranges, the sets?

It's actually— there's not much different in terms of— the only difference here is I look at a return on investment for the big compound movements. So if you look here, there's actually— Chris was deadlifting, and I pretty sure usually within that either last or second last phase I might pull something like deadlifts and back squats out. And that's basically because the return on investment, um, I feel is too low. So they're depleted, they're leaner, focus in the gym and concentration is at a bit— is a bit lower. So sometimes the risk from injury is a bit higher. So you can see here with Chris, I got him hack squatting instead, especially with hack squats. If I want to use that in a high rep range, I'm taking out that stability factor, right? So he can actually still train closer to failure.

So, so what we're talking about again is you're removing movements that require a higher degree of skill and replacing the movements that have inbuilt stability, which have a lower skill, because again, it's a front squat in this case is a higher skill demand than a hack squat. Putting on the hack squat, which is then safer for him to go to failure.

Yeah, yeah.

So lower still work but still compound in nature. So like a hack squat is still compound in nature. It's not a technically— like you'd say compound, it's like one of the big three, but it's, it's still—

it's a big squat.

It's a big squat movement. It's bilateral. It's going to create a lot of muscle damage, but it does remove the stability element from the piece. Yeah.

And I still had him, um, so you see here, he still had like a higher rep day followed by a lower rep day, and then he had a rest, and he had a low, low, higher rep days again. So it was very much similar. And these last phase before comp was actually everything— I pulled everything back. So you can see here, so hack squat was the main movement, bench press, and one-arm rows. I pulled him back to a trap bar deadlift rather than a conventional barbell deadlift, and that was touch and go because again, the return on investment is quite low. And I want to— he was like 5% here, like between, you know, 4% and he started this one at like 8% and got down to 4%. So yes, we're still training to failure. He was always trying to fail, or as close to proximity to failure as you can. There was no change in intensity, but the selection of exercises that we used was, that was a lot different.

Now, um, we will switch gears here. I think it's a good time, is because I know this is a question that people are going to ask, or at least think about it, is he's a dude any differences between training a female or how you think about this process for a female? Or are there any magic exercises or magic foods or magic macros that the differences between male and female? Or is it same shit, different personality? Pretty much, yeah. I can't sit you up with that question.

Yeah, pretty much.

So just to repeat for the audio, would you be training their chest as much?

Um, As an example, like, would you more be like focused— I guess it depends on the lagging body parts if you get to that stage.

Depends. So for comp, for instance, so that is the only difference in, in how I would train somebody where, um, so female, you're looking for that X-frame more so, and then you're going to be judged more on— so basically the guys joke out here where they see me do— so it's like a back, glutes, and delts, right? That's which is your classic female bikini fitness split, and then you throw some hams and quads in there. So yes, they don't really train as much chest because they don't need to.

Yeah. So I think that's the key of understanding principles, right? So the, the techniques— if you just went with techniques, it's like, oh, this is what you do. But the principle is we're going to prioritize the body parts that we want to grow, we're going to undulate the body parts or manage the fatigue of the person in general. But really it's the prioritization of, like, if someone— Chris has lagging chest, it's his body part lagging arms, we're going to prioritize that, train it 3 times a week. For female, like Janet for example, when I was coaching her, it was legs and back. It's really all we did was legs and back. Um, that was probably 60 to 70% of her programming, legs and back. And her arm day was her active recovery day, and it was that one I snuck in in between all her hard days because she still felt like she was working out and doing something and got that stimulus, but it wasn't really a big factor for— it wasn't the hardest day of the week, right? So you're gonna say—

yeah, but in saying that, like, for gen pop females, I still get them to train chest. They still do bench pressing, incline, because it helps with everyday movement as well. They're not, uh, comp-specific where we need to focus on lagging body parts or sculpt their body to a certain parameter and criteria. It's there for everyday life.

What advice— like, so having now coached quite a number of really top-notch, high-end body transformations, the coaches in the room, you know, they're wanting to get similar results for their clients. What words, I suppose, of advice, tips— you know, it's never, it's never a magic bullet, but a thousand golden BBs, if that makes sense.

That's a good one.

Yeah, um, what, what golden BBs do you have for the, for the crew?

Um, it's work with the client, don't be a dictator. Work with the client, don't be a dictator. It's not a dictatorship. In saying that, there are some times when you need to go like full dictator and just be like, no, this is the way we're doing it. But at the same time, there's going to be— you need to work with the client, you need to understand what is going to keep them compliant and keep them on track. So for instance, I had one client who actually, she was buying a singular Kinder Surprise every day on the way home from work because she wanted chocolate but couldn't have a block of chocolate in the house. So I said, okay, every day on the way home you buy one, and a Kinder Surprise is her favorite chocolate. No, she's not 12, she's actually 30 years old. She's a really good client now, but she would go, I said, okay, you pick Biggest spot, you buy one Kinder Surprise on the way home and I would work it in, but the rest of it was on— but then they kept her compliant and she's still with me 4 years later. Whereas Chris, we said, okay, can you try 2 squares of dark chocolate? And he ate the whole block and I was like, okay, no more for you. That's it. And that's, that, that's the difference. Like, and this is where even with nutritional changes, you know, Mark said, where, where did you change things and how do you change it? I asked person first. And with nutrition, nutrition is a do-with process, not a do-for.

Do-to. You're gonna quote me, get my quotes right, yeah?

You think I would have known this?

Nutrition is a do-with process, not a do-to process. Yeah, I just wanted to add, because we're talking about this the other day, notice Tyrone's language, right? Just to back up everything that you're saying, is Tyrone leads with empathy and he backs up with what?

Authority.

Leads with empathy, he's backing up with authority. You heard the word there, collaboration. He collaborates with his clients. How does this chocolate work for you? Oh, it doesn't work. Okay, I'm also now the authority to say we're not putting chocolate in your plan. I listened to your concern. This actually makes everything worse. We're not doing this because you've employed me to get you a result, and as you're in my care, this is not going to give you the result that you've employed me for. So as the authority on topic, we're going to take it out. But I listen to your concern. Let's try and find another alternative that works with you. Oh, what kind of surprise works? That's amazing. How can we include this? Okay, great, let's include this. 4 years later, see, it's a collaboration. He's listening to the client. It's not the dictatorship of you have to do it this way, this is your macros, these are your concerns, I hear what your concerns are, these are some— this is how we can solve it. Did it solve it? Yes or no? Kind of pie chart or linear graph. Yes, it did. No, it didn't. But constantly it's that reiteration process.

I think that's also a case of giving enough rope but then pulling it back when it gets out of hand too. So like, difference between, you know, I'm sure at some point you've probably been asked what's the difference between giving a meal plan and giving macros. Now some clients might start with a meal plan and then as they want to change, it's like, okay, let's introduce some macros and you can have a bit of freedom. Then that freedom gets out of hand and they're eating, you know, Sultana bread 3 times a day rather than rice and potatoes and getting no nutrients. It's like, okay, you've just— you've—

you've—

we're gonna— let's just pull it back in a little bit because you're getting a little bit out of hand. Yeah.

So in, in Chapter 4 of my book where I talk about flexible structure, you have macros, which can then feel like— some people, macros feel like a prison. Food plans can feel like a prison. And so like If you fit your macros, it can feel like playing with Play-Doh. It can become anything, but then it's like, it becomes anything. So it's like, what's the, what's the alternative? Do we have this prison of iron bars where you have to eat 100 grams of rice with 100 grams of chicken with 100 grams of broccoli 4 times a day, and if you don't do that, the world's going to explode, and you have to eat like this, which is a prison? Or I can play with Play-Doh and make everything fit my macros. There isn't in between. Bamboo. Bamboo is flexible, but it's also strong. So when we create the plans, we want to have this flexible structure. Two things can be true. Flexible structure with your clients of giving them that parameters to then make decisions so they're not going to fall. If they do fall, they're not going to fall as far.

If they're taking the piss, you pull them back in basically. And that's where you become that authority figure as well and go, you're just getting a little bit too far here. And that's where I will give— you asked me before on in the build phase where we'll give some, some processed foods. It's like, I'll give you a little bit of rope if you start to hang yourself, I'm going to come and save you because I'll just pull back in. Yeah, you'd hope so. And that's, and that's where, you know, Tom asked to go, do I have a ratio of lean mass to body fat to put on? No, but if I find you putting on body fat too fast, I'll be like, why is this happening? Either I've put your calories too high or you're taking the piss with the food choices. And if you're taking the piss with the food choices, then I'm going to take charge and we're going back to a food plan. Personally, I like Cronometer. And Cronometer, C-R-O-N-O-M-E-T-E-R. Maybe we can get a sponsorship. Say, well, watch this.

Yeah, maybe be nice.

Um, the reason why I like Cronometer is because the issue between Cronometer and MyFitnessPal is MyFitnessPal isn't as regulated, so anybody can put anything on there. You want to put— you have it like you can you put chicken breast in and you'll get 128 calories and 28 grams of protein, and you'll get 3 grams of protein, 4 grams of fat, and whatever. So people— it's very easy manipulated and it's not as regulated. Whereas with Cronometer, everything— so basically, if you want to put— you want to submit a food, you need to send a photo of the nutrition label and the packaging label at the same time. And it— I've done it, it takes like 3 months until it gets put on the system. Yeah. And you get an email. So it's a bit more regulated, plus it still has a barcode reader that you don't have to pay for, and also it gives you a breakdown of micronutrients. So for someone in— so for comp prep, for instance, I will look at sodium-potassium ratio, and basically I'll just get their chronometer rating, the readings on their chronometer, which gives me that. And then you can look at a micronutrient perspective, so it breaks down all the micronutrients in the food as well. So that's, that's what I prefer, and the transition that it looks like for me will be, here's your meal plan, here's your calories and macros at the bottom. You're going to put everything in day to day, and this is your guide. You can— and then you will learn to make changes and as you see fit, and you will start to learn what is high, what is— what carbohydrates look like, where your sneaky little fats are coming from. Because people won't realize, you know, where fats come. It's like, oh, I had a yogurt muesli bar, it's carbs, but it's got 15 grams of fat 'cause it's dipped in yogurt and chocolate, right? And they go, oh my God, I didn't realize. So yeah, and that's where the education comes from at the same time.

Well, with that, let's give Tyrone a thunderous round of applause. Thank you, good lad.

Thank you. Great.