Ep 13 When the Jacket Comes Off A Conversation with Kit Lisle

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no personas, just the quiet clarity that emerges when noise drops and the mind is free to speak for itself. Today, I'm joined by Kit Lyle, a value creation strategist who has spent the better part of 3 decades inside the engine room of private equity, helping leaders to see what others overlook and move faster with clarity. Kit is the founder of theoperators.pe, a highly curated peer community for PE-backed executives, a place where real playbooks are exchanged, blind spots surface, and momentum returns. Before that, he spent 25+ years building and leading growth strategy consultancies, advising PE firms, operators, and boards on how to test assumptions, pressure-check thesis, and uncover opportunities hiding in plain sight. He brings the rare combination of military-grade intelligence training and private sector pattern recognition, Someone who can synthesize complex signals quickly, distill them to what truly matters, and create the conditions for leaders to make decisions with conviction. He is, at his core, a connector of people and a clarifier of value. Someone who strengthens a room simply by being in it. And I can highly testify to that. So with that, welcome to the show, Kit. Thank you for taking the time.

What a wonderful introduction. Thank you. Where did you get all that, Markus?

That's my secret.

Good stuff. Thank you.

As you know, the thing is, at the moment, I only have guests who are A, handpicked, And as you can tell, I have only guests who I really know. So it is not that difficult using modern technology, combining it with my own experience about you. So I'm so happy to have this conversation with you today, Kit.

Oh, I've been looking forward to this, Markus.

Wonderful. So before we begin, Kit, when I say stillness, I don't mean peace or quiet. I mean the place in you untouched by pressure, noise, or performance. The place that knows before the mind thinks. And that's the layer I'm inviting you to speak from today.

Sounds good.

So let's start with the first question. Where in your life do you meet the you untouched by expectations?

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is passions, hobbies, you know, things that we do just for fun and pleasure. You're not trying to impress anyone else. You're not trying to Prove credentials. So, boating, gardening, honestly working on home projects. I'll give you a simple example, Markus. I sometimes get into the zone when I'm working on things. I had an old truck and I felt that way then. It was like my way of, you know, my own self-therapy was to just zone out and, you know, work on things like wiring. So a Christmas tree that we created from a pallet and taking limbs of a tree and sawing them off very closely. So you have circles that are of varying sizes depending on the thickness of the limb. And so we built a Christmas tree that therefore was the, the balls were the shape of the little cuts and put the lights in, and, uh, it turned out very nice. But doing things, things like that, it's— I'm not trying to impress anybody. I'm not trying to live up to some standard. I'm not, you know, it's just calming, if that makes sense.

Okay, so where did you get this kind of ideas from, these inspirations?

Um, you know, my son asked me I guess about a year ago, 2 years ago maybe, what profession I would have chosen if I had to do it all over again.

Mm-hmm.

And it didn't take me very long to respond. I said brand strategy, maybe somehow being involved in advertising, the advertising industry. And the reason is in the work that I do, there's not a huge amount of creativity or creative outlet. Obviously, I do some writing, I put things out there on LinkedIn, but that absence of the opportunity to be creative in my workplace means that when I have some free time, that creative outlet sort of just comes out. I'll give you another example. I've written 2 or 3 plays, I think 2 in the entirety and 1 is sort of on the shelf. Wow,

that's impressive.

And I've got a couple of books that are cogitating up here, fermenting, if you will. So, you know, that creative outlet, I think in our minds, maybe it's just me, but if you don't allow that creative— that creativity to have a place, Maybe it sort of builds up, bubbles up to the point where you just can't resist doing something with it. And so when the timing is right and I have time, then it's relatively easy to just get creative and get lost in that. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. I just picked up on something which I would like to point out. Why didn't you do the creativity and then it comes out? Why did you do from your solar plexus up?

You mean just my gesticulation?

Yeah.

Just now?

They're not chance, by the way.

I don't know.

It's the reason why. Because your creativity, kid, does not come from up here. Your creativity comes from your solar plexus, above your solar plexus. Because if you look at it, that's exactly what you did. You started here at your solar plexus and it came up, right? You did not do— Yeah,

right, right.

So what does this say? This basically says that your creativity comes from a place which is usually hidden. Because at your workplace, if I understood you correctly, you don't see yourself being extremely creative.

Right.

So you wait for your free time until you have enough stillness. And you know me, stillness is not absence of action at all. It's congruent action. So that basically builds a conduit. So you suddenly going into your workshop or wherever you go and follow that hunch, which doesn't come from here, it comes from here. And you start building it up, that's when you go into that stillness. And that stillness is where you find the peace, where you find the calm, probably at some days even the strength to go back into your workplace because it's almost like a substitute for not having the creativity. Does that resonate with you?

Absolutely. I think it allows for time, like it's a refresh, it's a reset. And I wonder, you know, I would just ask you what you think. Do you think there are certain types of people who never experience that stillness? Don't allow themselves to?

Yes.

I think there's a variety of reasons, I suspect, for that. But sometimes we just don't like to be very introspective because there's trauma or, you know, emotional issues that you don't really want to, uh, have the— you want to push them away, so you stay busy.

It is highly interesting what you just said. Um, are you familiar with Marianne Williamson, who wrote the poem Our Deepest Fear?

I am not.

I paraphrase, and I recommend to look it up, and everyone who watches our show right now, because Marianne Williamson wrote a poem that Nelson Mandela took as his inauguration speech when he became president of South Africa. I paraphrase, we are not afraid of failing. We are afraid of being greatness beyond imagination. So this puts it into a different perspective, what we talk about, right?

Right.

So people are afraid to find out, wow, that's who I am.

Fascinating.

That's who I am. So I highly recommend everyone who watches or listens to this show to read that poem. our deepest fear. It's so really, it's really great. And there is a movie with Samuel L. Jackson, where he plays the basketball coach. And he took over that school of, I think it almost like exclusively Black students. They were kind of losers, never winning any game. He took them over. And the thing is, when he was actually dropping them because of, you know, non-discipline, anything, that kind of stuff, and he walked out, that was when one of the students stood up and he talked about, or basically recited the poem. And I can tell you, I have goosebumps all over my body right now because it is such an impressive movie. And that moment when this young guy recites Our Deepest Fear, That's when Samuel L. Jackson as the coach says, they are worth it. They are worth it. This is my job, you know? And you know me, kids. This is one of the reasons why I do what I do, because I want people who say, you know what, is this as good as it gets? Isn't there more to my life? And who do not dare to believe there is more. They usually meet me exactly at that moment, at that trajectory of their lives. And then I can say, you know what, there is more. And then I realize this over and over and over again. The people are afraid to tap into their own greatness. And interestingly, why? Because we are wired, we are socialized. in the exact way by society. No one wants your greatness. Think about if you suddenly are great, you pop out of the actual system. I always say if too many people actually find their stillness, which you asked me at the very beginning, are they people who never find that stillness? Honestly, I say it's the majority. They have glimpses of that stillness, glimpses of inspiration and intuitive moments. It's maturic, especially here in the Western world, I would say. So imagine if too many people, too fast, too many people actually found that stillness, the system itself will come to a halt, to a standstill. And that is dangerous because the system needs that momentum of people who say it's as good as it gets. No, I'm not really doing at all what I intended to do or what I wished I would be doing or what I dreamt of when I was younger. Oh, but that's just a pipe dream of a little child. The system needs those people in all hierarchy levels because otherwise the system will collapse.

Well, I have a question for you. AI.

So

as we reach generalized intelligence in the future, whether it's 2 years or 10 years or whatever, and fewer people are working, there's sort of a theory about how society will handle that. Do you think it will ultimately be good for people? Like, hypothetically, let's say the government decides GDP has gone up because of production, because of AI. A certain array of people do not need to work. They'll be compensated, their needs will be taken care of, which would obviously free them up to pursue creative outlets or interests. Do you think this is good for humanity? And

I want to point something out before I answer for everyone. Our call is not the slightest rehearsed, so no question that comes from Kit has been informed to me as coming up as a question. I just want to make sure because it could sound totally rehearsed, even me rehearsing my answer.

Markus didn't realize I was going to take over his job as the host.

And I love it because that's what I invite all my guests. Absolutely. You'll be surprised about my answer, Kit. There is a level of society That will go into an absolute collapse. And it's probably not the one you believe it is. Let's use hierarchical levels for a moment. You have people who are in absolute helper positions. They will thrive. Then you have clerks, let's say, working in call centers, working at shops. They will find other outlets for what they're missing in terms of recognition, because let's be honest, most of them never receive any recognition anyway in jobs. But then we go higher up, and that will collapse. I promise you. I give you the proof in the pudding. When I was in my last corporate job, I was taking care of people who got fired at the top level. So C-suite, a little bit below senior management. When they got fired, they came to me with a surprising effect, loss of identity. Loss of identity. I'm not sure whether you know that, but before that, I was an HR manager and I fired quite a few people, literally fired, not let them go, fired them because their bosses decided it doesn't fit anymore right now. So let them go, right? One time it literally felt like this person was so devastated, and that's metaphorical now, of course. That person wanted to leave the office, and I said, not so fast. And that person said to me metaphorically, what else? You've taken away everything I had. And I said, no, actually not. You're wearing a jacket, and the jacket is ours. The jacket belongs to the company, metaphorically speaking, always, right? So we need to be in reality. So I basically ask that person during the firing call to take off the jacket, put it aside, and to leave the office without a jacket.

Yeah.

And you remember those times, Gid, when going around with a shirt was an absolute no-go. There was always jacket. And now think about suddenly this person loses the jacket plus the tie. And now this person has to leave the office of the HR manager with a simple shirt, unbuttoned, open. And that is a metaphor for what is going to happen when managers cannot return to the office anymore. And when they need to redefine who they are.

Yeah.

So now you understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. This is exactly what I'm preparing for.

Yeah, I'd like to share something with you. I frequently listen to Audible, so books on tape, and somebody had recommended a book. I think it's called Building Character, although it doesn't feel right. The book is about character. And the author asked the question about how would you want your friends, peers, family members to think of you? What would you want them to say about you when you're not in the room? And you hear things like, you know, successful, productive, hard worker, accomplished. Yeah. You know, maybe made a lot of money, whatever. And then the next question was your eulogy. What would you want people to say about you after you are no longer here? And the words are quite different. I found, I found that interesting. We live in the here and now. We don't always think about, all right, what's the context? What's the big picture?

Okay.

Even in personal branding for people who are trying to find their next role, as you know, I work a lot with private equity-backed executives who are in career transition mode, and it can be very devastating. It can be humiliating. I'll give you a quick example of what I mean. I've heard several people say something along the lines of, sooner or later, we're all in career transition mode. I've had a very good career. I have a lot of connections. I'm just going to put the word out there that I'm available for work and something's going to land in my lap soon. It, you know, maybe it'll take 6 months. So, 6 months has gone by and the panic starts to set in. Obviously, costs have continued. And so, I talked to these people about developing a personal brand. Like, how do you want to be remembered literally when you're not in the room? by somebody who could be an influencer or actually a hiring decision maker. And you actually have to narrow the aperture so far so that you're relevant. But it's— you're right, you know, going back to what you said about taking off the jacket, you know.

Mm-hmm.

It's sort of hard to think of like, what— who am I? What am I doing here? What am I trying to accomplish? But it's very helpful to think about it in a much more universal, literal universal sense and lifetime sense rather than in this exact moment.

The problem is, kid, someone who is a career manager can simply not do what we talk about right now. They can dream. Usually when they have a job, high-paying job at a high hierarchy level, they can dream. That's it. Because the problem is, to even get into that position, you need to kind of lose your identity and take over whatever identity your employer has given to you and bestowed upon you. So if you think about, I know PE quite a bit about, you know, through you and through other people, in the end, they are hired hands, literally hired hands. And you know what's so interesting? I didn't even see that coming. But now when you describe the people who are basically in a situation where transition is nature of their job, PE people, so they know sooner or later I will land a new gig. It's totally different because they knew their job will end and the new one might come sooner or later. But now think about that manager who suddenly gets fired or let go, how beautifully you want to put it, and that person has 6 months. That person has not calculated that in at all. So now to consider that actually your constituents are in the exact same place as somebody in corporate who never calculated that this thing will end is actually mind-blowing. And it answers my question, how are you with operators? and me who is part of operators can actually collaborate. And I believe we've just found the best answers. Think about if I bring into your operators what I've been doing back then with court professionals, that's exactly what's missing because imposter syndrome suddenly kicks in. Think about, you believe within 6 months, can you believe me? If they say 6 months, they're absolutely certain it takes them 1 to 2 months. Then it takes 3 to 4, and then the little freakout starts. And the people ask, you know, in the beginning, have you found a job already? Or have the— has the following, um, the follow-up company risen already? No, it has not. So 2 or 3 months later, the question comes like, um, have you already found A new company. 4 or 5 months. Have you already found a new company? So you see, the tone changes to the point that it suddenly comes from the first relative. Have you not yet found one? And then we're at 5, 6 months. So if we can manage to prepare someone who is at the very beginning of that transition, Guess what happens? I give you the example. When I joined a company that doesn't exist anymore, Drake B. Moran, was later bought by Lee Hef Harrison, which is Adecco. I was told that this is the thing, how it works. So when I meet someone at the office who got just let go, there is a little spike up of momentum. Oh, it feels great. Finally, I have the time of my life. I never thought I will have that time, right? I go fishing, I go boating, I do whatever it takes. And then it doesn't take long. And you don't even see where my hand is because that's how low it goes. So I thought of the following, and you know why I did that. I thought, what if I can actually Prepare them up here in ways that they say, but Markus, why do you go into that? I feel damn good at where I am right now, and I'm sure it won't take long and it goes up here again into a new thing. I said, look, the point is, no, it will not. So what I'm going to prepare you now is to understand what's coming. And guess what? The drop went only down to here, and then I was able to guide him up. My colleagues always said, Markus, how is that possible? I said, by knowing what is happening. I never followed the company's curriculum because all I needed to do is focus on the first 2 2, 3, or 4 sessions with these people. All I needed to do, because I needed to prepare them that, look, this is the trajectory, which is by the books. But if you and I work together closely, this is what will happen. The curve goes only down here. And I can already prepare you today how this will feel so you can prepare yourself for what's coming. So it's no surprise. And the ones who actually agreed on that trajectory, Kit, were the ones who didn't collapse, had no identity loss, and went up very fast. So this is really something I believe we should talk about. So I'm so grateful that you brought this in. So, wow.

Yeah, maybe you should just elaborate a little bit on that. Do you want to Take a deeper dive?

Yeah, we can do that. So if somebody loses their thing, right, and they are usually used to be used, not needed. Needed is probably a little bit softer than being used. So they need this Somebody is here who I am important to. So if I don't have a master— let's put it a little bit more crass— if I don't have a master who takes care of me, he gives me importance and utilizes what I have to bring to the table, where is my right to exist? And this kid is the part that has not been developed in them. I know very much what I'm talking about because I had hundreds of these conversations. So I'm not a newbie who just talks about theory and read a lot of books, literally lived experience. So what I realized is if these people understand right now you are in a high because you believe Gosh, I have connections. I just put the word out and 5, 6 offers, definitely better than I ever had, will actually fly in. So we can have a reality check and say, look, my experience shows of 20-plus years, kid, that you can have as many connections as you want because your connections are usually in the same boat as you are. What happens with the CEO who gets fired? How many times does he get invited to parties? Uh-uh. No, no. Markus as the private person won't get invited to the party because it's the CEO Markus Neukom who gets invited, the CEO from the other company. It's the guy who is in the PE company acts as the representative of that company, who gets invited to the company functions, who gets invited to the network meetings. You're not, because you know exactly what I'm talking about. So if these people understand, look, in the end, you're a hired hand. And this is an attitude thing. So if you believe you are a hired hand, you'll be treated as such. So now the identity change starts kicking in, meaning they have to learn who they are totally underneath their job, their description, their function, their titles. And, you know, I know quite a few of those. They are very proud of what they represent.

So you're originally a European. Are you from Switzerland?

Correct. Yes.

So is this uniquely an American thing that we've— so you, you know, you meet somebody at a cocktail party or

even

a neighborhood party, and the first question, maybe the third question—

What do you do?

What do you do?

Yeah, that's how we define it. It's universal. It's universal. Yeah. But, you know, why is it universal, Kit? Let's talk about that for a sec. Why is it universal?

I think it's in our DNA. I mean, I think we've inherited genes that, you know, we all had a role when we were hunting and gathering. What's your answer? That's my guess.

So, let's run a moment with yours. Everyone was a hunter or a gatherer or a nurturer or whatever, right? So, that was almost clear when I looked at you. You had the hunting clothes and another one had the gardener clothes or whatever, right? Like, we all looked the same. So to be honest, I don't think it was of much interest back then what you were doing. But guess what? We talked about life. Have you ever heard how those conversations went at night around the fireplace when they met? No. They didn't brag about their careers. They didn't define themselves about or around their titles because they had no titles.

I'm gonna push back a little bit, gently.

Please, I love

that. The, the paintings on the walls of the cave are about— essentially, they're about work. They're about hunting. They're about the capture of the whatever, the lion or the tiger.

So in some ways— And it's close to that a little

bit.

If we met those people, would they tell stories about what they're doing, or would they define themselves about what we see in a picture?

Yeah, they would tell stories.

That's right. So that was their life. But jobs today have become our lives. You know, I'm 53 years old. My dad is 80 now. So my dad's generation went to work to earn. So it was an end to a means or means to an end. Today's society is different. We go to work to matter. And to be honest, that's unhealthy. So what does this mean? We go to work to find our identity, to find a purpose. So what we're doing is we're basically becoming all very paid, very well-paid hired hands, believing that it is us who decides our fate. I had this one conversation, Kit, where this one guy said to me, how is it possible that I am suddenly not enough anymore? I'm referring to half a year back to my performance review. And I said, look, we can stop the conversation right here. You might have been enough yesterday morning even. However, your boss came to me this morning and he said, Markus, when I woke up, I knew that this person has to go. Yeah, literally strategic change.

Do you mind if I pull on that thread a little bit?

Please, absolutely.

Might take us in a slightly different direction, but, um, in lower middle market private equity, private equity groups typically are acquiring founder-led businesses, family-run businesses. And I do a lot of work on change management and misalignment because there is inevitably going to be misalignment. And I'll explain why. The founder of the business had a way of doing things and the founder had been literally in every role there was in the company. So, if the founder says that this is the way to do it, we as managers become, without really realizing it, Mm-hmm. complacent.

Yeah.

Automatons, right? Just following orders, just doing what needs to be done. We don't question, is this the best practice? We don't say, what about continuous improvement? We don't look for faster, better ways to grow or create revenue. However, when a private equity group suddenly becomes the owner, they're not buying the past. They're not even buying the present. They're buying the hope And the expectation that that management team can take the business from where it is today to someplace very rapidly different in 3, 4, 5 years. And that means that certain people have to adapt and change and redefine their roles. Some can, some can't, some will, some won't. And there's often significant turmoil and friction. And sadly, I'll share one last quick— Yeah. Anecdote on this. Well, actually, 2. So, the first little anecdote is I was discussing this concept with a private equity group. And I was sort of leading up to the point of there is a better way, like onboarding, training, development programs, essentially coaching the management team on the skill of change management.

Uh-huh.

So, I said, if you were a Spanish acquirer, If you were in Spain, it would really help the management team to learn to speak Spanish. Or if the job suddenly required learning to ride a bicycle, it would really help them if they actually had that skill. Well, now they're being asked to change, but they don't have that skill, and you're not providing them with the training they need to. So that's what I am passionate about doing is helping these managers learn how to develop the skill of change. And do you know what one private equity group in particular said? He said, I don't know, Kit. That just sounds like a lot of work. Wouldn't it be so much easier just to let them all go and just bring in a new management team that knows what they're doing?

That's exactly how it goes.

And then, the second little story is I occasionally meet very, very accomplished private equity-backed executives At the very tail end of their careers and they're preparing for retirement and they know that it will be different, but they're not really sure exactly in which ways it will be different. So, I'll give you the example. Hey, what do you do? So, if you're suddenly retired, it's hard to answer that question. What do you do? So, anyway, just a thought. It would really be helpful. If that recently retired executive could say, I'm learning to sail, I'm working on my first novel, I'm exploring pottery, you know, whatever it is. But they don't often have the ability to make that significant shift, you know, quickly and easily. So, for some people, that process of going into even semi-retirement mode is unsettling. Because you don't have that label, you know, you don't have the jacket.

You see, that is exactly what we talked about. When that retirement comes, the identity goes away. So let's look at it for a moment. Let's say that person has been a career PE manager. Right? And the only reason why that person was a career PE manager was because that person was engaged as a career PE manager. Now I put something challenging out there. What has changed in regards to being a career PE manager? Nothing. There's just no engagement. So people have to understand that even in transition, I am still a career PE manager. And now let's take it into your example. If somebody's retired, they're still a career PE manager at heart. They can say, I'm a former one, or I'm a retired one. Guess what? I know many people who would love to have a conversation with this guy. Maybe unpaid at first, but when this guy proves the value, they'd be happy to pay him as a consultant, for example. So I believe the first step is to understand identity doesn't come from an engagement, which sadly it is for most people, but that the identity can be solidified as the foundation of your own personality. And it's basically your personality. You are because you are. And then you can build any identity parts on top of it. And then the person suddenly realizes, you know what? Okay, it's cool. I am a former career PE manager. However, I have other interests or I'm starting to develop other interests. But the thing is, Kit, unless you have that solid foundation built, every single hobby, whatever you put on, is only an extra. It's a replacement for something that's missing. And this is what I am talking about. So to jump from having been a highly decorated You know, general in PE firms to being literally down here, a retiree, then to get to the point that you can actually enjoy fishing and boating and whatever, huge leap. Because you see, I didn't do here, I did retirement, no identity here. Yeah. And then build it up again. And you suddenly can enjoy it. Because I have to tell you, if you give me $10K every month and you say, Markus, you can do whatever you want to do, I'll be the happiest person because I'll continue what I'm doing, not because I have to, because I want to. That's the difference.

Yeah.

So our conversation definitely has taken a little bit of a different direction, but it's the exact direction it should have taken. Because your people are the ones who have to listen to this conversation. So I'm extremely grateful that you, that you took it this way.

My pleasure. It's always fun to have fireside chats.

So I have 2 questions. I have 2 questions, Kit.

All right.

So I know you find your moments of stillness. So when you are in stillness, what is it that can pulled you out of yourself, because yourself is stillness, and what then lets you return to it again?

I might need some coaching. When you say pulls me out of my stillness, as a disruption or as an intentional—

Yeah, it's literally you're in stillness, you know, literally a conscious decision, you go into nature, whatever, into stillness. What can actually take you out of that in an instant?

Yeah, I mean, I think it varies from person to person. For me, yeah. This is a little bit of an awakening, or a little humility is going to come through here because I'm being vulnerable. But I have a tendency to be worried about time. It's not healthy. It's not a good thing. And so if I'm doing something that I'm enjoying, even reading, sometimes I'll think, how am I doing? How am I doing in terms of everything else that I want to accomplish? I want to accomplish things today. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Where do you think that voice comes from?

Honestly, don't— I don't know. You know, my, my parents were really interesting people. I don't think it came from my father. It must be from my mother.

Interesting, because it is conditioning. It is conditioning, because if you ask your inner self, how do I feel when I continue reading? It will say, good, I enjoy it. And that's the answer. You should and can follow KIPP.

I'll elaborate briefly. I just thought of something. So I have a friend in the town where I grew up in Virginia who wanted me to help him with some painting inside his house. And I'm a pretty good painter, so I thought, yeah, that sounds great. So I drove 6, 7 hours to get to his house. for the weekend. And, uh, early that Saturday morning, I got up and I'm ready to go, and he's still asleep. And I'm, you know, I'm concerned. We've got a lot of work to do. We've got a lot to accomplish. And, uh, later on, it's like an hour later, we had some breakfast. I'm getting a little anxious. And he said, kid, the house can wait. We're just here to be together. I just, you know— Right. I mentioned the painting because I thought it'd be a good idea, but I really just wanted to get together with you. And it wasn't really flattering. It was like, to me, it was like, ah, you tricked me. I thought we were gonna do something, like create something. But, you know, as I, as I reflect on that, it's not a— it's probably not a really good attribute. It's not healthy.

He tricked you into being with him.

Yes.

So how did you feel in the end?

Candidly, I felt disappointed and frustrated that I'd driven 6 or 7 hours and we didn't accomplish what we wanted to accomplish. But in hindsight, I look back on it and think, well, there was an opportunity to connect and be still that I didn't seize, right?

So let me add now what I have felt at the very beginning of our conversation when you said, I don't have too much creativity. This is quite a misconception, my friend. Your job is so creative, but you have not combined yet connecting people, being with people, with creativity. Because if you look at how skilled you are in terms of interacting with people, Guess what the key to that is? Creativity. So the exact same way as you wanted to have something done and accomplished, it is in like in your business. But the real value of driving 6, 7 hours was the deepest value you could have found. It's this connection. It's this interaction. It's this communion with your friend. So now start looking for a moment at all the people you meet in your daily life, and you will see, wow, my job is extremely creative. Extremely creative. Think about that for a moment. But you are exactly at the right place, Kip.

I feel that way. Thanks for the validation.

You're welcome. So you don't need to go so much into your shed. You can literally be at your workplace and be as creative as you could be. Because picture it metaphorically, you're building a boat. You are building a shack. You are building— you're basically— you are in creation mode as soon as you go into the operators. So if that's the only thing you take with you from our conversation, powerful, then I believe your life will change.

It's good. Thank you.

Wow, it's amazing. So you're welcome. So I have one final question, Kit. And I believe this is very important for your people and anyone else who listens. If someone listening feels lost in the noise, what is the one thing you want them to remember is still true?

Well, I mentioned the bit about narrowing the aperture, you know, as we develop a personal brand statement. At the point that people start to actually think about a process or a strategy for their career transitions, they're usually a little late, right? A little panicky, as we discussed earlier. And so the tendency is to open the aperture as wide as I could do that job. I could do this job. I could move over here. I could work in this industry. Sure, no problem. I could do that. I could sweep floors.

Okay.

But that's not really healthy. So it sort of reminds me when you ask about eliminating the noise, you really have to decide like what is important. And maybe, maybe I'll bring it full circle back to the comment about the eulogy from the book. Building character, you know, how do you want to be remembered? Do you want to be remembered as somebody who led the sales team, you know, in that particular channel? No, nobody cares about that. Do you want to be remembered for somebody that got out of their career transition mode in only 4 months? No, nobody cares about that. So figure out what it is that's most important to you, and I'll elaborate Briefly, I had someone who was genuinely disparaging me, saying terrible things about me in a sort of public setting. Okay. And I asked a friend who was in public relations, crisis management communications, in other words, for big corporations, when something bad happens and people are saying bad things about them, how do they respond? Do they respond? What do they say? And he said something important to me to pull me out of my craziness that I was so upset about and the static that I was experiencing. And he said, you have to decide who it is that's most important that could possibly hear that message. And if the message is being heard by, you know, somebody who lives 3 or 4 doors down, or if the message is being heard by somebody in the grocery store that you interact with, Doesn't really matter. Maybe if it's your mother, then you care. But think about, think about it that way. So anyway, that just helped me to focus in on, all right, you're right, that, that's important. Or all of this other stuff is not important. I'm not sure if that answered your question.

Absolutely. And what it actually did, it showed you that what got bruised was your ego. That's pretty much what it comes down to. It bruised your ego.

How much wasted energy do we spend worrying about our egos?

You know, if we consider that 98 or 99% of our fears are all— and this is very important— False evidence appearing real, and you have the answer. Ego is basically all based on fear. It's BS. It's false evidence appearing real. That's what it is. So I love that you shared that because Who hears it? You first. And this totally upsets you because there is a critic in you who says, that's not fair. What if— of course some people will hear it, maybe even in your own little circle. That doesn't matter. If all my friends suddenly know about something that somebody put out there, You know how long I care? Until my ego is quiet. And then I say, okay, if this guy hires a PR agency and starts putting it out to my prospective clientele, then I'm actually going to hire a good lawyer. But I'm not going to worry about it because my worry kit doesn't help. So I believe it's, um, yeah, it's a beautiful place to, to end our conversation.

Yeah, I've got one final request.

So please, okay, sure.

So, so I remember when I first met you, we talked about imposter syndrome, and you just reminded me of that when you, you were defining something else. But for my audience of people who are in the operators, would you mind defining imposter syndrome?

Sure, I don't mind, not at all. So here is the most important thing to understand, Kate. Imposter syndrome is not something to be worried about. That is something that probably puzzles a few people when they hear that. Your conception of imposter syndrome is what should worry you. I'm not sure whether I shared that with you. 3 years back, it was basically a little bit more back. It was when COVID hit. I was at a point where I literally wondered whether I should continue doing what I'm doing. So It was the first time, Kate, in my life that officially I was hit by imposter syndrome. So back then I asked AI, should I even continue writing on LinkedIn or should I stop? And it said, you should continue. So, okay, give me 10 topics to write about. Number 7, imposter syndrome. I started posting about imposter syndrome. People started commenting from Ends of earth, I could not even have imagined that it comes. 2 of my closer people, 2 men responded with a private message saying, Markus, I can totally relate to the symptoms, but not to the cause. That made me think. And I remember I sat in my double swing chair on my terrace in Switzerland. And I suddenly understood, what if the term imposter syndrome is the actual culprit?

Mm-hmm.

What if you buying into a syndrome, which if you talk to an MD, it basically is any symptom, any cause that cannot be explained is put together into a syndrome. And then we— very intelligent women actually came up with imposter syndrome. But I think they wanted to point out something entirely different than he has become. So now we have an imposter syndrome. And if I ask you, what is imposter syndrome? I can almost bet you cannot say what it really is. It's just very confusing. So now let's think about what if Imposter syndrome is not the cause that you have to be worried about, but it's a symptom. What if the actual problem is what I used to call an authenticity struggle, which I love to translate in very plain language? You don't have a freaking clue who you are. You don't have a freaking clue how you became who you are. And where to go.

And I'm just gonna add—

Please.

I'm gonna add what I heard you say when I first met you, Markus. You said it is the fear, despite all evidence to the contrary, that you are not qualified for the job. Despite all evidence to the contrary.

Yes, yes. And you can actually look it up in Merriam-Webster dictionary. It says, despite of not believing, kid, despite of knowing you have all it takes for this task or project, you do not believe and doubt yourself. And that absolutely was the aha moment for me. So I said, goodness me, why was that never an issue when I worked with hundreds of clients in my career? Why did it never really come up as the problem? Because I focused immediately on understanding my client, doesn't matter how old that person is, has no bloody clue who she or he is. That's, by the way, a prerequisite to work with me. To get to that point that you say, you know what, I at least entertain this idea. That despite of having made millions in my career, despite of being 80 years old, I do not know who I am. And I do not know where to go. And I don't know why I came here and how I came here. Because then I understood imposter syndrome is actually the opposite of what these 2 women put out there. Very clever, very intelligent women, but they did the world a disservice by probably not elaborating enough what they really meant. Because I suddenly realized, gosh, imposter syndrome, Markus, is the biggest compliment I could ever receive. That means what I'm doing is worth the while. And all I need to do is I need to collect enough proof based on my experience That gives me the energy, the fueling power for this little rocket to say, you know what, here is the membrane, here is space, here is the universe, that I have what it takes to break through. That's what this is. This is— And the ceiling is so important. It is your comfort zone. So everybody who said, you know what, Fingers crossed, both fingers crossed, teeth clenching together, close my eyes, and I just go through this little membrane, which is my comfort zone, and ended up here. They suddenly realize, gosh, that's all it takes. So now I say to my friends and to my clients, when this little voice comes, it's actually a little wink. You can call it the universe, whatever. A little wink to say, you know what, kid? Push through. Push through. It's perfect. So you see, we have now demystified imposter syndrome in less than 5 minutes, but that's what's needed. So when I'm invited on podcasts, I usually, most of the times I'm invited to debunk imposter syndrome. Because I believe, kid, imposter syndrome is the killer number one of careers, dreams, visions, marriages, partnerships, relationships with your kids, and friendship. Because what happens is, you know, at first you go up and here's the sun, right? You go up and then you suddenly become afraid. And your little spaceship goes down to Earth again. But then you go up again. And every single time, kids, you go less high, you go less high, you go less high, and suddenly you settle here. And then you call it, it's as good as it gets. Can you imagine how depressive this state is? I would say 98% of your people, of my people, are at that stage. Guess what comes next? A little voice who says, is this as good as it gets? Isn't there more? And that voice, my friend, becomes louder and louder and louder until it's a bullhorn that cannot be ignored. Is that sufficient in terms of imposter syndrome?

You got it. Yes, thank you.

Because it is an absolute killer of everything. So to finalize that, David Meltzer, who is this business mentor, he once said to me on a private call, he said to me, Markus, I believe that imposter syndrome is more prevalent than mommy, M-O-M-M-Y issues. Because it literally stifles the development of not only careers, but of people. So now imagine how many dreams are being shut down by our own critic because we believe in imposter syndrome. No, imposter syndrome is a signal which says, kid, push through it. Because you have what it takes. You know what I usually do with my clients? We start with one project, we take it apart, deconstruct it. So they literally see all the characteristics, all the strengths, all the skills they had, which led them to this success. Then we do it with the second one, the third one. And now you can imagine, take the 3 biggest things, don't have to be so big actually, but they have such an arsenal of skills, strength, all that stuff that they can start putting it together absolutely randomly. Have you ever looked into someone who does, what is that thing, alternative medicine, homeopathy? I have a friend in Switzerland, he has more than 100 components in his box. He knows that box so well, he can mix anything together depends on your ailment. Now guess what? When you have become aware of who you are, you can absolutely tackle literally any challenge that life presents to you. Any challenge. And you can tell this is a topic that is very dear and near to my heart. Because I believe it's the key to not only success, but to a fulfilled life. When someone starts internalizing this, imposter syndrome, it's not a problem. It's actually the key to greatness.

Well said. Thank you.

You're welcome. I'm so glad you brought it up. So with this, kid, I deeply thank you for being my guest and literally for this beautiful conversation.

Thank you, Markus. I have to go paint some rooms right now. I'm just kidding. I do have things to do, but thank you for the opportunity. It's good to see you.

Wonderful kid. So this was Remembering the Forgotten, a conversation held in clarity, not performance. And if something in this exchange helped you see differently, carry that forward.