Ep 23 The River Beneath the River A Conversation with Melanie Spring

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no personas, just the quiet clarity that emerges when the noise drops and the mind is free to speak for itself. And today I'm joined by Melanie Spring, a brand muse, an intuitive guide who helps bold humans remember who they truly are. He's an international keynote speaker, a mentor to visionaries finding their next expression, and a guide who helps people unbecome everything that isn't them, showing that becoming your brand isn't marketing, it's the courage to become you. For more than 2 decades, Melanie has walked alongside humans at pivotal thresholds, Through stages, retreats, and private mentorship, helping them speak from their deepest knowing. Her work isn't about performance or positioning. It's about embodiment, presence, and the unapologetic expression of who you already are. With that, welcome Melanie to the show.

Thank you for having me.

It's my pleasure. So before we begin, when I say coherence, I'm pointing to a state where nothing inside is at odds. Body, thoughts, emotions, and action move as one. There is no push, no urgency, no fear driving the moment. And when I say stillness, I don't mean silence. I mean the parts of you untouched by expectation or performance, the place that already knows before the mind takes over. And that's where I'd like us to meet today.

Hmm, that sounds delicious.

Doesn't it?

I think when I hear what you just shared, it makes me feel like it's the calling for all of us to step into a greater space, and not a space that we've been asked by the world to step into, but purely out of the space that people have asked us to conform to, to step into, to become, so that we can be— I wouldn't say necessarily controlled, but— Controlled. given a narrative that we should follow. And I love that we're starting the conversation here, so thank you.

You're welcome, and thank you for being my guest because I was really looking forward to our conversation. Because you know what's so interesting is, you remember, like, when I explained to you my version of stillness? It is the journey to remember Who the world told you, or actually remember what the world taught you to forget.

Yes.

So this pretty much resonates with what you just said. It's that space. So stillness basically is a safe space where we enter absolutely outside of all the noise the world basically dictates us and then puts us in.

Right. And I think— oh, go ahead.

No, no, your turn.

Oh, this is gonna be so fun. I'm so excited to dive in. Um, I recently learned that this idea is more, for me recently, uh, an alignment of attuned safety inside myself and really finding what that is, because I'm on it. I'm on a path of really tapping into what that means, like true attunement And safety inside myself, not because someone told me to be a certain way. And I'm pretty aligned in who I am. I know who I am. And yet, there's always another level to this. There's always another, how much more still can I be? How much more me can I step into? And this attunement for me has been such a quieting thing because there's no way that I can hear myself— if I'm always moving and forcing and pushing and doing. I have to purely stop.

Yeah. You know what's interesting? I just realized this this morning. We have different layers in us. One of them is the coherence layer you just mentioned. But at the same time, we should not kid ourselves. There is a part in us that has been indoctrinated, that has been programmed. And not by malicious people, not at all. There's no bad force out there that wants to enslave us. Not at all. But this is just like human beings work. And I believe it is the mix between being in coherence, which you said is literally like one with yourself, Right. But there is no separation in terms of you. But at the same time, we need to be aware of that there is this other part that tries to make sense of everything that's going on in the other part.

Right.

Because it's almost like, Markus, it's easy for you to say, I am living in the world. You are living in that coherent space, in that so-called safe space. But it's me, that me part, which is actually having to deal with the world. And the world is not so much coherence as we know.

No. And it's trying to pull us into it all the time. It's trying to say, no, no, no, look at me, look over here. Look, no, don't look at that. Don't, don't, don't stay in yourself. Come over here and be in us and with us and around us. So yeah,

absolutely. Because you know what's interesting? This is something I realized as well. And I'm reading it. Most of us don't lose ourselves in one dramatic moment. We lose access gradually through adaptation. Right. You know, when people say there is some evil force out here, actually, I was one of those who kind of believed that in a, in a myth way, right? In a symbolism way. And then I suddenly understood, no, It's simply adaption. So other people adapted generations before us. So now we were born into a family that taught us that adaption because, you know, monkey see, monkey do. It's just what it is. So we started adapting. So what I then understood is we learn who we should be, which is the challenge.

Mm-hmm.

We learn what earns approval. Because, you know, we want to be liked. And we learn what keeps things safe.

Mm-hmm.

Because people basically all want to be safe, right? That's what it comes down to. And over time, we mistake that overlay for who we are. So this is what I would like to talk with you about. I always say that people Literally start believing that's the overlay. This is me. Because, you know, you know the phrase, know thyself, right? What does that trigger in you if you hear the philosophical phrase, know thyself, as a key?

Well, for me, it, it's about understanding the light and the darkness that's within you and seeing what is the truth of who I am, regardless of what other people taught me to believe. And so, there's a lot of times I will sit with someone and say, so, I understand that you are a born-again Christian. Why? And they can't explain it to me. They're like, well, you know, my parents took me to church when I was a kid. Okay, but why do you believe that? Tell me the doctrine that you understand, and why do you believe that? And a lot of times, they're like, well, 'cause the pastor told me to. I'm like, okay, but why do you believe it? Right. And it's like, the unlayering of all of the things to go, but what do you actually believe? Do you believe all of those things you're told? Or is there some part of you that goes, wait a second, why do I believe that? Are you digging into it? But most people don't even take the time to ask the question, why do I believe this? Let alone—

Why do you think that is?

Who am I? Well, there's the— I actually, it's so funny that we're talking today. Of course, we even rescheduled this so that it was supposed to be a few weeks ago, and now it's today.

Yes, it's the right time.

And we're doing this today, as Markus and I always seem to connect to each other that way. But I wrote a post yesterday called Your Intuition Is Your Superpower. And I talk about how I believe, and this doesn't have to be true for everyone, but I believe our imagination when we're 2 or 3 is the same thing as our adult intuition, but it's the childlike version of it. It's that deep, pure connection to God, the divine, higher consciousness, our higher selves, that we bring in stuff that our parents are like, how do you know this? Like, where did you—

Right.

Where did you learn that? Who told you that? And you never learned it from anyone. You just know.

Just know.

Right, exactly. And then later in life, you're like, it's all woo-woo. That's like, yeah, but this voice in the sky told me, oh, I'm waiting for God to tell me. And it's like, why is it always the other when it's really us? Like, we are the divine. We are the divine connection. We are connected to everything. I am you, and we are everywhere. And it's like, Okay, but how do we actually understand that? And a lot of times, it's really taking quiet time, like you said, the stillness, to sit with ourselves without any distractions, without these stinking things that are taking all of our intelligence out of us, and allowing ourselves to go, but what is it that I understand to be true?

Mm-hmm.

Without anyone else's distractions. And it's, oh, so many times I've come back to the If I don't sit still, I cannot connect. I cannot hear. I cannot be quiet enough because those are not ever yelling. It's never yelling in our ears. Mm-hmm. It's always a whisper. It's always a quiet voice. And so knowing the difference of fear being screaming at us or asking the questions like, why are you doing this? What's happening? Where that intuitive knowing, that deeper connection is like so quiet and so sure. And so I wrote a whole post about it. Of course, it published this morning and we're talking today, so. Go figure.

Interesting. So let's dive, let's dive a little bit into that because there are some aspects which intrigue me. Stillness requires quietness. In the beginning, yes.

Right.

But I personally believe that once stillness becomes the baseline, it is actually the opposite. of having to go into quiet and stillness, because it's so sweet. Whenever I talk with someone about stillness, the tone becomes very sober.

Mm-hmm.

It's meditation, it's contemplation. And I said, look, if you actually talk with me in real life, you realize I am anything else than in a sober tone, because stillness really Is not absence of action at all, because stillness is a baseline in the end. And I believe when people speak about stillness, they are actually talking about the path to stillness, which, yes, does require to say, you know what, for the moment, I'm closing my door. Shutting off my cell phone, telling my family I don't want to be disturbed, and just be. Just be, right? Because you know what's interesting? I realized that humans are actually the furthest away from being human. Because human means being in stillness.

in

coherence. So we become human doings.

Right.

We become human behavings, right? Human wishes, human desires, whatever, human performance. That's pretty much what it is. And the thing is, then people want to become human beings. And the being part itself is already stressful. Because now we have a part that tells us, in order to be a real human being, You need to behave this way, this way, this way, this way. And what did you say? 2, 3 years old? If somebody told you how at 2 or 3 years old you had to be, you would have looked at them like—

No way.

What language are you speaking?

Right.

And actually, you wouldn't even have been able to comply.

No, because you can't be anything other than yourself.

That's the beauty. So let me challenge for a second what we just discussed. What if stillness is actually what we were born with? Because there are some people who say, when you're born, you forget everything. I don't believe that. I believe we are actually born with absolute knowledge. And then it takes maybe a couple of years In some cases, a little bit longer until society managed to, you know, adapt and what we talked about, to basically push stillness out of its rightful seat. And stillness becomes an entity that's basically protecting itself almost, because otherwise it gets crushed, right?

Mm-hmm.

And humans become more and more human doings, human adapters, human performers, the older we get. And then suddenly, and I'm sure you know this yourself from your experience, Melanie, suddenly that stillness holds and says, Melanie, is this it? Is there more to life? And I believe everyone has that voice in them. But that is silent. Very, very whispering. But I don't know if you know it yourself from experience. I do. It starts as a little whisper. And when I did not listen, it became a bullhorn, literally a bullhorn that said, sorry, we cannot continue like this. And I literally got to the point where a doctor gave me a diagnosis and said, if you continue like this, within a couple of months, you'll be in a wheelchair.

Yeah.

And he thought it was because of stress.

Right.

And I said, honestly, I have quite an easy job, even if I'm working, you know, 9 to 12 hours every single day. I knew it is not stress how the world understands it. I did not trust myself anymore. And that's when basically my You know, some people call it soul. Some people call it intuition. Some people call it God. I even actually said recently to a guest, what if God is actually a metaphor for who you are when you're born? We didn't go very deep because, you know, that's where doctoring comes into play, right? Yeah. I don't go into debates about that, but it's interesting. So, so here's my question, Melanie, for you. Where in your life do you meet the you untouched by expectation?

I think I, I know that I've been quite the anomaly for most of my life. And as I look at the things I've learned about myself over time, and then even talk to my mother about who I was as a child, and how much I just railed against the educational system, and how much I, like, was like, that's nice that this is how work needs to happen, but that doesn't work for me, and I'm not gonna do it that way. I've been really just pushing against the system for a long time. I tried so hard to fit into it, and it just did not work for me whatsoever. And so what I learned is that I find that I walk into rooms and people are like, can I have what you're having? What are you— how are you— how do you get to be all you and I can't do that? And I'm like, why aren't you doing that? And I think it's more about the fact that the more I've learned about myself, the more I've found that I know I have to be a beacon of light and not to chase around other people with light, but to be able to stand in myself so clearly. Mm-hmm. that I can be a lighthouse to show people the way home to themselves. And so since I was, I would say, 15, I would say, I've been working on how can I know myself more by being in the stillness, by being in the quiet, by doing things that are different than what the way that everyone else is going. Yeah. And also learning the ways of the world so that I could understand them. so that I could work. 'Cause I think of myself as someone who, I learn the rules so I know how to break them.

I like that.

And so it's like knowing them well enough to go, I know this isn't gonna hurt anyone to do this. I know that I'm gonna break this because I know this rule doesn't make sense, and this is why. But it's also knowing when to stop and when to pull back and go into myself and understand that there's a part that's out of alignment. And so I call it the original AI, which is aligned intuition. And it's about yes, the intuitive hits can drop, and God voices and whatever we call it can drop in. Yet if we're out of alignment in any way, our systems are like, "I'm not listening to that." And even if I did listen to this, I'm still not going to. I'm not going to be able to do anything about it. And then the bullhorn happens, and da da da da da. So I've had that happen multiple times where I'm like, "Whoop! Give you're back onto the road." Even if it sounds completely insane, I know that that's the path for me. And so. I feel like I'm always course correcting. Like every time I'm feeling like out, I'm back on it again. And so I think I've gotten quicker and quicker over the years at doing that.

That's interesting. Was there a moment in your life when you realized all the noise fell away and something in you knew exactly what was true?

Hmm. I think that's happened multiple times. Because I think my truth has changed. Like, I think there's been moments along the way that I'm very, very, like, certain of my truth and what that truth really means. And then it changes again. And I'm like, wait a second, there's another layer to this. Ooh. And then it goes quiet again. Like, just recently, because of course we're talking now, I had this moment where I was heading toward, this is not working. Mm-hmm. And I could feel it. I could really hear the, like, it gets stronger and stronger, like, no, no, no, no, no. And my husband looked across at the table at me and said, I wonder if— could you take 10 days off? And I was like, I have so much to do. It's right before the holidays. I can't just, like, take 10 days off. And he's like, yeah, but if you don't, what's gonna happen? And I was like, ugh, okay. Mm-hmm. And so, being able to hear that voice, a person across from me say, You, you've gotta do this or it's gonna crash really quickly. And we know how this happens. This is a cycle of mine.

Mm-hmm.

And so I realized I had been pushing something that I knew wasn't the right direction. And I could feel that like, yeah, but if I don't, then what are we gonna do? Then where's the money coming from? Then what's gonna— then all the, like, the world's expectations. And I said, you're right. And so I was able to sit for 10 days, mostly offline, and just really quietly in myself, and finding true stillness, like really stillness. And not just stillness as in, like, laying still, but like actual stillness inside myself and the storm that was going on, to see what's actually true behind the scenes. And I came out with way more clarity and way more confidence of, yes, now I know. But not from a space of like, okay, but now I can go back to the busy again. Mm-hmm. It came back to, no, but you know, and you can stay slow, and you can— just ease into this flow again without doing it again the way you've done it before, where you ramp it back up again and then you have to come back down. And so I think I'm just getting better and better at slowing down or having the truth tellers in my life make sure of doing that.

You know, it's really interesting, and that's something we have in common. I got to the realization that when I try to generate revenue, for example, It's pretty much nuisance because it's not me generating revenue anyway,

right?

No client has a money tree in their garden where they're going to give us money. So there is some energy involved which we have no clue how it works. However, what I realized is all I need to do is get the heck out of its way. And literally, that's where stillness comes into play. So curious, when you went into that stillness, did it feel like you went into the eye of the storm you were in before? Or did you feel you've been almost like removed out of the entire storm system into a place where— I can tell.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

Yeah, it was definitely— there was a storm. And I just, I think it was me being able to go, no, thank you. I'm not available for this.

You can go into the eye of the storm and still have the storm around you like a beast.

Right.

But it felt like you have literally removed yourself out of that storm system entirely.

Right. Where previously I would sit in the middle of it and go, it's okay, it's okay, I got this, I can do this. And yeah, it was me being able to really step out of it and go, I'm not available for this anymore.

Yeah. Yeah. And I believe that's what stillness is. It's almost like going into the eye of the storm because, you know, that's where safety is. And then basically going deep. And then you're out of the storm system. Because most people, they just wish they would find a way how to get into the eye of the storm, which is, you know, Quite calm,

right?

But you're pretty much captive there because when you move too far, you're done. So it's an interesting aspect.

Exactly.

So another question which I would like you to ask is, have you ever had a time where you felt you're living someone else's script? And what cracked it open?

For sure. That was when I was in my early 20s. I grew up in an entrepreneurial family. So every person, grandparents, aunts, uncles, parents, siblings, like everybody, they're all entrepreneurs. So both sides of my family, I have no ability not to be, basically. And I was told by my mother that when you finish high school, you go to college because she never got to. And I was the first in my whole family, both sides, to go to college and finish.

Mm-hmm.

And so I went and I did this thing. And the whole time I'm like, this doesn't feel right. I don't like this at all. This doesn't— like, this isn't— what am I doing here? Like, is it just like biding my time? Like, do I have to do this? Like, this doesn't make sense. And when I finished and I graduated, and on my graduation day, my dad looked at me and said, congratulations, I'm excited for you. And I was like, thanks. By the way, I got a job. And he's like, why? He's like, you're going to go work for the man? And I was like, Well, why would I go to college if I wasn't gonna go work for them? Like, wasn't the— what was the point of doing this if I'm not gonna go work for a company? Because like, now I have a degree so I can go work for a company. He's like, Melanie, you've had your own business for the last 2 years. Why won't you just go work for yourself? I'm like, I wanna go understand how the world works. And so I got into marketing and advertising and recruiting and headhunting, and I was at the top of my game in every single place. Mm-hmm. I even asked for like, I was like, hey, I've been doing better than most of the other ad reps. Can I get a raise? And they're like, can I get a promotion? And they're like, well, but what's going to do— who's going to do your job? And I'm like, bye. Like, that's not how this works. Like, if I'm going to move up—

It's supposed to be my problem, right?

Right, exactly. But they were like, but you're a woman. And when you don't ask for that stuff. And so people would interview me and they're like, why don't women ask for promotions or raises? I'm like, I don't know. Why don't they? And they're like, I ask for what I want. I don't understand why people don't ask for what they want. I wasn't raised as a typical woman. But what I realized is like the professional world taught me what not to do. And so I started realizing, by the time I finally started my company again at 28, I realized that I had learned so much about what not to do in corporate America. Interesting. In entrepreneurial companies, but that I had had to fit myself into a little tiny box.

Yeah.

Over and over and over. And even in my business, I had to do the same thing where clients were like, well, you can't do that. And I'm like, why can't I do that? And they're like,

yeah,

but that's not professional. And I'm like, well, who said professional is professional? Like, what is this box you keep putting us in? And so it just like was over and over reminders of, I've never fit into this box and people kept trying to stick me in it. And then I kept trying to fit in it and was like, why? No, I can't do that. So yeah.

But it's interesting what you just said. And, and this is another parallel you and I have. There was a price to pay in order to understand how the world works. And you said something before, Melanie, that once you— I paraphrase— so once you understand the system, how it works, you can actually break it.

Right.

And you'll get away with it easily. Like today, people show you they can abuse tax systems if you know how.

Right.

But it's the same in every single system. If you understand how it works, you can use it to your own good. So what's interesting is the price you had to pay in order to understand how not to do things. Would you say it was worth paying?

For sure. I'm so glad I did it. And I'm glad I did it at the time that I did it because I didn't know better not to. I'm glad I didn't finish college and then just start my own business and like make my own mistakes and figure it out. But it just felt like, I'm glad that that happened. I mean, there's a lot of things I wish I had done differently. Like I kind of wish I didn't go to college, but I got an education that I needed. And I taught a lot of my college classes, which is so funny because I'm like, how do I have a degree that I helped other people get? Like, okay.

Mm-hmm.

But I was able to understand the system that we were working within. so that I could also go, what if we didn't do it that way? Because if I didn't understand the system, I've seen other people, it's like people in oncology. I have a friend of mine who's in the, he's an oncologist, but he's been breaking the system from the inside. And he said, the problem is, is most of my other, my comrades are saying, our compatriots are basically like, I'm gonna go into functional medicine and I'm gonna help people only naturopathically. He's like, that's not gonna help. No, it doesn't. That needs to be in the center of the oncology unit. And that's what he's doing is bringing like music and art to the oncology unit. unit and changing it from the inside. So it's like you have to know the system in order to break it. It can't be from the outside.

Yeah. And it probably helps you tremendously. You know, when we recollect the intro, it helps you tremendously to combine the 2 worlds. Because otherwise, I don't think you would have found out the brokenness of the system.

Yep.

You would not attract the clients you attract today because those are the ones who say, Melanie, basically, I tried it all and it simply doesn't work. You seem to know another way,

right?

Can you teach me? Can you help me?

Exactly.

So that's so, that's so interesting. So what I realized with you is When you go into stillness, you are really in stillness. What is it that can pull you out of it, and what actually lets you return to it again?

One thing I've been learning a lot about with this idea of attunement fits really well with the stillness. And like you said before, it's not about being It's about understanding, and it's not about having things be quiet. It's about being able to find that true attunement inside of yourself, even with all the chaos and the storms that are happening around you, and understanding how can you hear your own voice? What's the voice that you're hearing? Or even whatever, your higher self, your soul, God, whoever. And I think it's a lot to do with being able to tap into the truth behind the truth. And what I would say from the book, The Women Who Run with the Wolves, there's a story about the river beneath the river. Mm-hmm. And it's this idea of, like, what's really underneath this that we can pull on that helps us go, okay, but we can talk about stillness, and we see it out in the world as, like, stillness, like we're actually just gonna meditate, versus what does stillness feel like to bring back into ourselves that embodiment of, oh, yeah, wait, I'm out of alignment. How do I bring myself back into my full embodiment? Regardless of the feeling my spouse took, then threw me out into a tizzy on something, or my client just quit, or something happened where it just, like, knocked me off course. It's like— and it's this idea, I like to think of it as like a suit that I zip myself up into, that it's not a bubble. People used to say, put yourself in a bubble. And I was like, I'm not Glinda. I'm not gonna float down in a bubble. But it's this idea of, like— and I think of mine as a disco mirror suit. where it's like a suit that has all these little mirrors that look like me, but I can go into something with the energy of it, cover myself fully in it, but it can't get in here. It can only stay out here. And so, that's really been helping me a lot with coming back to this idea of stillness and into myself and understanding what I'm really supposed to be doing and the attunement of where I'm going next, that I can come back into myself by zipping myself back up in that suit and going, oh, let's just wash this all off. Mm-hmm. And reset.

Beautiful picture. Would you believe that it's possible to have that stillness become your baseline and that anything else literally becomes noise?

Yes.

And all you need to do is you just need to decide to go back into stillness again?

Yeah, I have a meditation space in my bedroom that I do that every day, twice a day. Specifically to do that, like at the beginning of the day and the end. And if I feel anywhere that I'm like, oop, I'm off, I can go sit, light a candle, and remind myself, you can do this anytime. But it gives me a space to go, I need to go make sure that I have this space to teach my system that no matter what's happening, wherever I am in the world, I can come back to that.

That's interesting. That's a beautiful way to do it. Which brings us to the last question, which is deep. If someone listening feels lost in the noise, what is one thing you'd want them to remember is still true?

That you are only in control of you. You can't control everything around you. You can't control the environment. You can't control other people. You can't control other people's reactions to what you'll say. The only thing you can control is you. And being able to come back to yourself to remind yourself that your reaction is your reaction, your actions are your actions, your stillness is your stillness, and whatever you do is up to you. And so, there's no blaming, there's no, well, this happened when I was whatever, and there's no other. There is only you. And if you know, I'm only in control of me, and I have to come back to myself. Then I can find that space.

That's beautiful. And with that, thank you so much for having been my guest, Manette.

Thank you so much for having me.

This was Remembering the Forgotten, a conversation held in clarity, not performance. If something in this exchange helped you see differently, let it stay with you. You'll find a few quiet pointers in the description below.