Ep 28 Ready First Then the Goal A Conversation with Irene Magistro

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no personas, just the quiet clarity that emerges when the noise drops and the mind is free to speak for itself. Today, I'm joined by Irene Magistri. Irene works in environments where clarity is not optional and where decisions have consequence. But this conversation isn't about what she does or what she's built. It's about what remains when experience no longer needs to assert itself, when leadership becomes less visible and more stabilizing, when judgment softens without losing precision, And when presence does the work before words do. Irene brings a grounded authority shaped by years of holding complexity without rushing to resolve it. She understands when structure is needed, when silence is sufficient, and how stillness allows the right move to surface on its own. When that Welcome, Irene, to the show.

Hi, everybody. Thank you for having me, Markus.

It's such a pleasure, Irene. So before we begin, when I say coherence, I'm pointing to a state where nothing inside is at odds. Body, thoughts, emotions, and action move as one. There is no push, no urgency, no fear driving the moment. And when I say stillness, I don't mean silence. I mean the part of you untouched by expectation or performance, the place that already knows before the mind takes over. That's where I'd like us to meet today. So with that, Irene, where in your life do you meet the you untouched by expectation?

I need you to explain better what you mean.

Okay. Where can you just be you without expectations from outside?

Hmm, this is interesting. When I moved to the United States a few years ago, I started living alone. And the isolation and, you know, working was pushing me to spend time with people because I'm— and I'm a people person, I'm social. But then going back home, that was an experience for me completely new, and I wasn't expecting that. So I am myself completely, like, with my vulnerabilities and even my weaknesses that are like deeper than vulnerabilities. Mm-hmm. And also strengths when I'm alone most of the times. Because somehow I feel that In my role in my family and at work, I'm always supporting others. So with myself and in this space, maybe close friends, but yeah, this is isolation with myself. That's when I'm completely 100%

So did that come as a kind of a surprise to you?

Yes. You know, there are certain things when you have this kind of conversation that are deep and you get asked a question that it's actually, it's, this is a question that you will never think about it when, when I, yourself, like your true self. Doesn't mean that I'm not real in other circumstances, right? But I like the full spectrum of Irene. It is not— it surprises me, yes, to reflect about this and giving you an honest answer. Yes. Surprising.

You know, that's why I have you on my show, because I know you're honest and straightforward.

Thank you.

So why do you think that is? That, and you know, by the way, whoever I ask, most of the people say when I'm by myself. Why is it so difficult to be me without being bothered by judgment by other people while we are with other people? Why do you think that is?

While you were asking, the word that I was thinking was judgment, and that for sure is something that impacts. At the same time, I am known to be honest and blunt. So I am straightforward, maybe because I'm an Italian from the south of Italy. I don't know. That helps. Maybe it helps. You know, when you are completely yourself, again, as I was saying, it's your weaknesses, your vulnerabilities, but also sometimes, I mean, there is your— the environment around you. You can be blunt and straightforward, but you can be— you can hurt people. Yeah. You can hurt people. And I remember My mom, when I was young, in our conversation, we were arguing. And one time she told me something, actually more than one time, because I was always immediately responding, attacking, or somehow speaking up. She was saying, she told me that my tongue was sharper than a knife.

Wow.

You can hurt people. And that's something that I didn't like. So I tried to teach myself. So that's what I think. I think it's the judgment. And at the same time, also thinking about others, because sometimes the complexity of ourselves doesn't fit every situation.

And you say something really interesting. So let's dive into that a little bit. One part of being ourselves is not having to filter ourselves too much, is not having to pay too much attention to people's softness. I believe that is kind of a social etiquette. You see that with people who probably have not really been well educated. They don't care, literally. They have that bluntness that just goes out. And sometimes I wonder whether we are almost taking it too far in our society. Because if I have to hold myself back so much, that literally means an important part of myself Doesn't actually get noticed because I take care of somebody else's weakness or vulnerabilities. And I don't think it's how it's intended, to be honest. And when you are by yourself, or when I am by myself, the only one who can judge us is ourselves. So that means when you're by yourself, you are not in a constant chatter where you judge yourself. Is that correct?

Yeah, sounds true. It is true. I agree.

That is really interesting. So if you think about if everyone just learned to be maybe 5% less sensitive and less vulnerable, Kind of toughen up, I believe our lives and our world would be so much different. Because let's be honest, the stuff we hold back, Irene, is quite often something that is very much of a strength of ours. So other people say, you know, you're too much. Are we really too much? Or are the other ones just too sensitive and have never learned to get out of that social butterfly, which I believe is extremely important in business sense? So we experience very much both. So that is really interesting what you just shared.

I would like to add something though, because, and this comes, I mean, I don't want to sound again, just forget about it. Nobody is going to listen to this. Podcast, right? And that is not clear.

No,

it's just you and me. It's just you and me. It's just you and me in front of the fireplace.

So absolutely.

I, I don't really— and now I'm— let's, uh, let's blame my bilingualism, and that is English is my second language. Okay, so I will use a word. I do not care if the other person gets offended because of my beliefs or because of what I— beliefs most of all, or how I behave or my decisions. I've always been, I mean, I've always been very, very decisive and firm. So

if

I'm saying something that offends you, if I'm not saying it to offend you, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You shouldn't get offended. But if you get offended, I wasn't offending you. I'm just being myself. So hurting feelings, that's definitely not like the main thing. When I say hurt is when you do intentionally. When you are using your words, you're using your personality, you're in a conversation and you In a way, sometimes it can happen. You diminish somebody else, or there is kind of a, I don't know, like in a conversation, there could be, uh, like some jokes about, like you get defensive, defensive. And so there are certain situations that, uh, being yourself can hurt people in that sense. That's what I'm saying. Mm-hmm. That if you do it intentionally, and intentionally I'm saying because you're motivated in that, motivated in that specific moment. By certain things that are happening or a conversation that you dislike and you react.

So

what we're saying is going to hurt others. That's something that I try to be conscious about, to control my, my reactions because I get emotional, because I, I, I like to interact with people. And if there is something that I dislike, I'll speak But I, but sometimes you have to be aware, right? In general, again, if myself offends you, maybe we just don't see each other. We don't need

to,

we don't need to get in conversation. Yeah, I don't know if I, was I clear?

I really, I really like where we're going right now because, you know, as part of, of my show, what I really want to achieve is to just show how life really works. And that's why I love to have that huge variety of guests. And I believe what you just tapped into, by the way, is just something I'm just coming to grips myself because I have a few people in my life who say, Markus, what you just said hurt me. And I said, what? It doesn't matter. It hurt me. I said, no, no, no, no, no. Let's look at it. What I just said is neutral. You assume it was negatively meant. And what I realized, Irene, is even if I know that the other person is coming from that standpoint, To try to correct that understanding that I was not saying that in that way, that I wasn't meaning it that way, doesn't help at all.

Yeah.

Because people have a programming and conversations quite often prove that programming. So I believe it's important for all the people who never really listened to that, We are alone. No, we are here. But yeah, you will share it with the right people. I know that. But people have to understand that, that people will accuse you of having done something which you have not. So how do you deal personally with the situation when someone accuses you of having hurt them with what you said or how you said it. What do you do next?

I've learned during my long training on leadership and being mentor on leadership how to use the assertiveness in a good way. So—

Tell me more.

I use communication techniques to explain my thought. And to be honest, this is one of the foundations of my being. There are people using the word assertiveness in a negative way. For me, assertiveness is, I value your opinion. My opinion has a value too.

I love that. I don't—

I put not just— I put myself first, I put both of us On the same level, which means that if there is a, like the situation that you were describing, I would say, I understand your point. I understand. What I think is this. I didn't mean to offend you. I hope you will understand my position like I am understanding your position. And again, I can phrase it in many ways. I can be, I can cut it short if the other person is not and say, you know, using other way of saying, like, I appreciate what you are saying. I'm hearing what you are saying. With that said, I stay in my position. That's just a closed door, right? You are saying, yes, I hear you, but this is who I am. But you can also say, as I said before, so I value your opinion. I understand your point. This is my point. I hope you will appreciate as well where I stand. We don't need to agree. And this is another beautiful thing that I got from this country. The first time I came here, I learned the concept of agree to disagree, which is a beautiful thing. I mean, it's not from my culture. It is far away from my culture. We agree or we disagree.

That's so great.

But we love the agree of disagreeing, which is, we can stay in the same room. We don't need to agree on everything to like each other, even to like it. I like differences. It's the beauty of the world. That's why the world is beautiful. It's because it's diverse. At least that's what I think.

I love that. Would you say that curiosity And being interested in other people helps you with that stance as well?

I think it's spot on. Yes. Yes, I care. I care about knowing more. I'm curious to know. And I know definitely that my point of view is not the beginning and the end. I'm just, you know, like a grain of In the sand, right?

Yeah.

But so knowing and being curious of other people's cultures, other people's point of view, as I see something doesn't mean that I will change my mind. I could, but definitely curiosity is a key.

You said something beautiful, Irene. You're curious in other people's opinion. But you are not specifically curious in why that person is as that person is in that current situation, because that doesn't help. If I try to understand that person's background, I'm screwed. If I understand where this person comes from, that's when I can decide, okay, do I move or do I not? So recently I just said to someone, look, I do care about your opinion. However, I care about mine as much as— and interestingly enough, that just leveled the conversation because I believe it's that assertiveness which many people are not used to. Many people think, gosh, that's arrogant. That's conceited. That's bossy, right? Right. No, it's not. I think it's human, literally human, just to stand up and say, you know what, here is how I see it, here is how you see it. And then you say, okay, let's agree to disagree. And that takes quite some personality because even if many people know it, they don't really live it. Because their ego is way too much ahead of that. So that's an interesting aspect. So let me move to, to a further part of, of that conversation. When we speak about stillness, the opposite of stillness is noise. Can you tell me about a moment, Irene, when all that noise fell away and something in you knew exactly what was true?

That's a very deep question. Did you send me these questions? Because I didn't see them.

No, I said no script, no prepared.

Take your

time.

I had— when you ask the question, immediately something pops up, right? So, or either I try to tell another story, or I just tell you what came up in my mind. That's what it is. We grow, right? Our growth, it's day by day, year by year. I turned 50 last year, no, 2 years ago. So I'm not that young. I'm not young. I'm not that young. Let's put it in that way. All things that happen in your life, there was a lot of noise, a lot of noise. Mm-hmm. I always had the ambition of coming to the United States and prove myself and others that I was enough for an international market and for this high-standard American market. So when I moved here, I still brought a lot of noise. And when I say noise, I think about unbalance, like feeling unbalanced. Okay. And I found myself again getting closer to God. So that's good. I grew up as a Christian. You know, in Italy, there is a Vatican, so that's, you have all the choices. So it wasn't my choice, but it became my choice when I grew up. And that's my stillness. When I don't have the noise of unbalance, even when I am not unbalanced, even when I am Um, I'm sad, when I am, you know, there are several situations where I'm stressed. That's my place of, of stillness, of quiet. Noise ends when I feel closer to God, when I pray and feel closer to God.

That is really interesting. So is that something you experience every single time when you pray?

Yes. Yes.

Why do you think that is? Because I hear that quite often, that when people pray, that noise falls away. It's basically all the chatter stays outside and there is just stillness. And as I said, stillness is not quiet or simple silence. It is actually very active because when you pray, you are active. Yes. Something is going on. So why do you think that prayer has that power of stillness?

When I pray and when I am in that moment of meditation, only the things that matter are in my thoughts.

Uh-huh.

So all my values, the love for my family, love for my son, there is no negativity. I saw there is only positive thoughts. There are only positive thoughts and my values, family, friendship, love, love for my cat, you know, all the things that make me happy. And that really matter and no noise. I think that's, at least that's for me.

It's very interesting. So you hinted to something before. What was the moment when you realized, Irene, that you are living someone else's script and what cracked it open?

It didn't happen right away. Grew up in the south of Italy and in the Italian system. I became a lawyer. I went to law school. It's a completely different system compared to the American system.

I see.

So, you need to make a decision when you are in high school. So that's— I was really living the script of somebody else.

Mm-hmm.

Because I was told that you got to— and another thing is that it's not easy. In Italy, it's a very high rate of suicides of students that they are not allowed from the families because it's, it is a, like, it's a bad thing. It's so negative that you change your mind. Oh, you wanted to become a doctor, now you want to become a lawyer. It is a big, big issue. So you're—

I know that.

Yeah, the judgment, it is the judgment of the family and all the people around you, and you let them influence your choices. So I said, I become a lawyer. But then in 2008, I was already a lawyer. For a few years I've been in the working space, but then I came here and I did this leadership program, uh, and I thought it was a once and that's it. Instead, they hired me, uh, starting from the year after. And the window to the world and discovering cultures, because this program was a leadership program with international students, international leaders coming from all over the place. So every year there were 100 people coming in from 50 countries. So I just understood that I could have taken the pencil and start writing my story. And that's when I started to strategize how to express myself in a different way. So I did several other things. I was in politics. I tried to write a different story, and now I'm here.

So it's beautiful. So you basically almost went back to the drawing board when you were a child, because as a child, your drawing board is empty, right?

Yeah.

And you can't clean it out every single time. You have a new idea, you draw it out, then you just clean everything out, new idea. So you basically went almost back to when you were a child, when you had, I would say, almost like a native stillness, curiosity, creativity, courage. It's interesting, all RVC, right?

Yeah.

There's no surprise to that. And you basically said, okay, I have left my home country. I have fulfilled my initial contract for the family. And I know in Italy, especially in southern Italy, there's a huge Huge extended family behind it, especially Mama and Papa. It's like huge. Yeah. And when you came to the US, you basically said, you know what, now my script begins. So you almost started with an empty drawing board and you said, what is it I want to do? Tell me a little bit more about that process. I'm so curious.

And I want to tell you a little piece of things that happened just recently, right? That is related to this. Now I have my son. He moved to the States. I have one son, and he's studying here in Pennsylvania.

Congrats.

He just started college. In September, there was this proclamation by the president in the United States. And so if there is something that is changing in my situation, It seemed that something was going to change in my situation. So I might need to go back to Italy. And what would I do? So I was driving to pick him up at school, was Friday, and I was listening to a YouTube video. Sure. And then I said, okay, so now if I have to go back home, because it wasn't clear what was happening and so on and so forth. So I said, I have to talk to the lawyer and this and that. Then my son came to the car and we started talking. And I was starting immediately doing what we were saying, the whiteboard and start.

And

he said, Mama, I have to tell you something. There is something that I admire about you. I said, what is it? He said, you are always ready to reinvent yourself. So you don't get discouraged. If there is a change, you just think, okay, because I was already thinking, I have to call this person, I have to call this other person because there is always network.

Yes. I'm going to organize

conferences. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. So I was already ready for the next chapter. So that's what happens to me. I, I was ready. I had a goal. And I tried to use my network to get here. And then the process, it's, it was less complicated if it was, if I was taking an MBA graduation, like a diploma here in the US. And so that's my whiteboard comes to the drawing. It's not like, um, um, how do you say, like predeterminate. I don't do it first. All right. I do this because that happens and because that happens. I know that if I do that, it will take me somewhere closer to the goal. So that's what happens. And then I use—

That's fascinating.

My people around me to help me achieve the goal.

You said something really interesting, which I just, you know, perked my ears. You are ready. And then you set the goal. Did you realize that? You don't set a goal and then you become ready. You are ready and then you set a goal.

Yeah.

Which is a huge difference because most people set goals. You know, when people ask me, Markus, what are your goals for 2026? I said, to be. Are you crazy? Where are you going? I said, yeah, to be, because to be means I'm ready. And when I'm ready, you know, like when you— I love when you use your hands. That is the process.

I do, right?

Yeah. So I saw your drawing board and basically what happens is it's almost like an active process The drawing board takes form while you actually take action. And it's almost like there is a force that actually draws on that drawing board, which moves from stage to stage to stage to stage. And most people, they have a static drawing board, and yours is interactive. So is mine. I love that.

Yeah.

So for you, That's why your son said it is so beautiful to see how you can reinvent yourself constantly because you're not fixed on an outcome, correct?

Yeah.

So what would you say, what is your foundation that you are even able to live like that? Because if I look at your curriculum vitae, it's quite impressive. Somebody else would say she sat down with a career counselor in college and mapped out her career. And I know it wasn't like that. So what would you say? Is it that, yeah, your life came out as your life is? For most people, it would be scary. Let's be honest.

I embrace my complex journey. I know that not all the journeys, and even, even when you see resumes or curriculums that are like robust. That's what I was told. They said, you don't have a robust curriculum, which is insane, right? Because it's complex. It's diverse. Yeah. So the foundation is just embracing the journey. And I also know that instead of like, I'm suggesting my son to build a robust resume because that Your life is easier in that way. You know that you are a nuclear engineer and that's, you know, you are smart in physics and math. That's my son. He's good in Python and all these things. So you know that you go to, that's the guy that I have to go to because he knows about. Yeah. But I have an analytical approach to situations and problem solving and assertive communication techniques because I was a lawyer. I know about project management because before being a lawyer, I was a quality management consultant. And I know about leadership because I was involved in the leadership program and I mentored leaders from all over the world. I know about networking because I grew up in that environment of not just being a social person, but being strategically authentic in your networking techniques. So everything that happened to myself and all my steps, all my reinventing myself, and now I work in IT, in insurance, in the United States. I do know a lot. I do know a lot. And everything I know helps me To do one thing that, at the bottom line, I think that that's what brings everything together, which is the human capital. It's the people.

Yeah.

Nothing happens without people. And based on all the pieces of my journey, that's what I'm good at, in managing people, interacting with people, creating people's value. Which is part of— that's, I think, the foundation of my journey. So embracing the learning process, curiosity.

Yeah. So when I listen to you, I believe one of the advice we can give to everyone who listens to this show is to invest in developing human capital skills. Because I meet so many intelligent people, Irene, as do you, who have that muscle of human capital absolutely underdeveloped. They are struggling, they are strampling on their own all the time, and they have literally no support. So this is definitely a huge lesson to to take away from here.

And soft skills, I would add.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

Soft skills, broadly, all soft skills that support whatever knowledge you have.

How would you say someone can develop soft skills quite fast? Because I don't think there is time to lose in this current political and economical situation.

I do think that you need to be strategic and intentional. It doesn't happen if you don't put work. So nowadays there are, you know, there is ChatGPT can help, AI can help to create simulation of interactions or helping also to build a strategic plan.

Yeah.

But you need to be intentional. And so to learn soft skills like communication, interacting with people and doing networking and learning the active listening, the assertiveness that we were saying before, the body language, how to use the body language. So all those things, only if you put work in it and you're intentional because you want to learn it, is going to happen. And to happen, one of the things that I usually suggest is don't go to networking events just because it's networking event.

Yeah.

Find something that you are interested in. Find something that you are actually connected to, something, an event that is related to something that is close to you. And start experiencing meeting people and be comfortable to be uncomfortable.

That is such a beautiful statement. Be comfortable to be uncomfortable. Because, you know, people believe that I am a manager, I'm supposed to be good with people. No, you're not. Unless you learned it or have a natural inclination to it. No, you're not. And to admit that, I believe that is one of the biggest issues I realize when I do leadership coaching, that people have difficulties admitting that they're not good at something they believe one is supposed to be good at. So literally, I love that. Be comfortable to be uncomfortable. So here's another question, Ari. What most pulls you out of yourself? Meaning, what can happen that you lose that stillness? And how do you get yourself back in again?

It happens, you know, uncertainty in life, It happens. So there are situations that are outside of my control. And so whatever happens that is outside of my control and creates some sort of instability, then I try to connect to my people. So the people that they know my vulnerabilities, they know that I'm vulnerable sometimes. And If there is a situation that takes me out of that, then I talk to my people. And again, I talk—

That's beautiful.

And I do pray. So that will help me to go back and meditate, even just the meditation or the breathing and trying to concentrate again on the values and the positivity. I do not, I truly dislike negativity. So whatever is negative and it doesn't suit my, you know, it doesn't help, I just get rid of it.

It's a waste of time in the end, right?

Say it again, sorry.

It's a waste of time.

Exactly, yes.

Yeah. What I really want to say here is Some people tell me, Markus, I want to get rid of all negativity in my life. I believe that's foolish. It doesn't work. We have to acknowledge that we're human, that feelings are coming. So what happens to us is quite often not so much in our hands, but our reaction to it very much is. So I believe just to admit, you know, especially if we are in a higher level position, that they're still human. And let's be honest, we are human first. If somebody, what's it called, introduces themselves with their title, I always smirk because I realize, okay, yeah. It makes sense. It absolutely makes sense. So I love that, being human.

Yeah.

Which brings me already to my last question, and this is a deep one.

Another one?

Yes. One more.

Deep. I mean, another one that is deep.

Yes. You know, I'm quite known for that, so I don't think you're too surprised. So Irene, if someone is listening and feels lost in the noise we talked about, what is one thing you want them to remember is still true?

I truly believe in the core values of a single human. All of us, we grew up, we have a lot of things in common, no matter diversity, no matter how diverse we can be. But there are certain things that are, you know, core. Everybody, well, we have all families, we have all mothers, fathers, you know, a supporting network around us. We grow up, we with values, each one with their own. We are not forcing anybody to believe what we believe. I think that that's finding yourself in your core, your core values, who you are. That's fundamental for me.

I love that. It's a beautiful way to end our show. So thank you so much, Irene, for having been my guest.

I was honored, really. Thank you, Markus.

Thank you, Ilke. This was Remembering the Forgotten, a conversation held in clarity, not performance. If something in this exchange shifted how you see, let it stay with you. A few quiet pointers are waiting below.