Ep 29 The Quiet Ones A conversation with Perry Knoppert

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no personas, just the quiet clarity that emerges when the noise drops and the mind is free to speak for itself. Today I'm joined by Perry Knoppert. Perry moves in spaces where complexity It's not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be respected. But this conversation isn't about the movements he's founded or the systems he's designed. It's about what happens when intelligence is allowed to breathe, when thinking loosens its grip, when structure stops insisting, and when connection becomes more powerful. than control. Perry carries a lived understanding of nonlinear intelligence. He knows when clarity must be linear, when openness must remain unstructured, and how stillness creates the conditions for collective intelligence and organize itself without force. This is a conversation about thinking less loudly, listening more precisely, and trusting what emerges when humans are no longer asked to fit inside narrow frames. With that, welcome to the show, Perry.

Wow. Is that me, Markus?

This is you.

This is— I'm listening to this and I'm thinking, oh dear, that's interesting. What an interesting guest. And then it's like, oh, it's me. No, really did that very well, Markus. Really well said. Thank you.

Thank you. And you know what's interesting, Perry? I don't think I had one guest on my show yet who didn't ask more or less a similar question. Because it mirrors the guest in a way which they usually do not get mirrored and which they rarely get to see themselves.

So, and why do— don't we get mirrored then often as founders or leaders? I

believe it has 2 reasons. One of them is we do not really show ourselves. So a mirror can only mirror what is reflected. And the second one is quite often mirrors are not really skilled in mirroring. And then there is a third aspect, which is almost dangerous to mention. There is quite often the aspect of either jealousy or apprehension. I'm not sure about you, but I probably have a handful of many, many, many hundred people I know quite intimately who dare to mirror me in the best way possible. So the others would rather mirror my weaknesses than they would mirror my strength.

Yeah. And that happens a lot, right? And that's maybe jealousy. Yeah, I want to say so many things. I'm like, no, forget about it. But I agree with you. Yes, we tend to do that.

We definitely get back to that.

And I'm so happy to, to support. And this is something that happens a lot and that I'm proud of, is to see the possibility when nobody else sees the possibility. And it, it, for me, it feels like that that's a skill we've forgotten. Mm-hmm. And people tend to see the things you know, that makes them jealous or that makes them uncomfortable rather than— I used to do a lot of street photography, and for me, street photography is seeing that picture that everybody sees, only nobody sees it, right? It's so— I took a picture of a lady on the escalator coming out of the U-tube, and it's very simple. Uh-huh. It's an older lady with her cane and And everything is gray. Her coat is gray, her pants are gray, the stick's gray, everything is gray, the escalators. And it's— I love that photo. It's so simple. And I keep thinking, so many people see this every day, but nobody sees it, that it's so beautiful. Mm-hmm. And I think that's something I'd like to do with the Octopus Movement is to see all the possibilities. When nobody sees that. And that's maybe the mirroring that I do a lot towards others rather than to myself.

Yeah, this makes sense because if you look at you looking through the lens, you have probably almost developed a special view through the lens.

Even outside the lens, Markus.

And that's why you see it. Yes.

So I see, I see through the lens without looking through the lens.

That makes total sense.

I know some people who said to me, like, I find it so difficult to make a picture because I see something and then I take my camera and I don't see it anymore, right? I can't frame what I see. But for me, it's the other way around, that I see something and it's already framed. And I just take my camera and it's, it's there. It's, it's so strange in a way. Yeah.

What a start.

Hmm.

So, Perry, before we begin.

Yes.

When I say coherence, I'm pointing to a state where nothing inside is at odds. Body, thoughts, emotions, and action move as one.

Mhm.

There is no push, no urgency, no fear driving the moment. And when I say stillness, I don't mean silence. I mean the part of you untouched by expectation or performance, the place that already knows before the mind takes over. That's where I'd like us to meet.

Hey, we don't have to go there. We're already there, Markus, but you know that.

We absolutely are. This is something that was pretty obvious when we started.

I— this was, I think, 2 years ago that I was thinking how— and this is so cool because when you, you spoke about this before we started recording, I was already laughing like, oh shit, this is so cool. Um, I was thinking I think it's 2 years ago. I've met so many beautiful people and doing all these Zoom conversations and meeting people from all over the world. And there's a special group of people that is just a special group of people, you know. They see the bigger picture. They are spiritual without being spiritual.

Mm-hmm.

They sense what others don't without sensing it. It's such a special group that are humble but very active. And I thought about this for a very long time. And like, how does— I love language, you know, I use different words sometimes in the Octopus Movement, like human mycelium. But I was, I was thinking, how do I call these people, these special people where you can feel immediately something is happening here? And then after a lot of thinking, I started calling them the quiet ones. Not because—

That's the best one.

You don't hear them, but it's— they are the quiet ones. And it still resonates to me To frame that as a quiet person, and that isn't necessarily an introvert, you know, it has nothing to do with that. It's just the quiet, the quiet ones. I love that. And now you're describing this, and let's go to this.

Isn't this interesting? When, when we look at the quiet ones, people would say, Yeah. So they are still?

No.

No, they're not. They are absolutely active. But the quiet is our presence. So if somebody looks at it from the outside, they will think there is presence, but it's never void of activity. Like, for example, I say to my friends, look, If you want to see stillness in real culture, come on a Zoom call with me where I'm really coming into motion because that's stillness at its highest. And many people believe stillness is becoming solemn. I'm going into meditation. No, no, no, no, that's a totally different understanding. So I'm so curious about that conversation and I was still looking forward to it.

And then I will stop about this because I want to know your first question, Markus. Greta Thunberg is a quiet one. Isn't that a funny sentence to say that this way? She's not quiet at all, but I think she's a quiet one.

Yeah.

Yeah,

she speaks more than what she says. That's an interesting aspect. Yeah. Here is my first question to you.

Okay.

Where can you be just yourself?

Now, since, since 5 years almost— no, since 5 years, my answer would be everywhere. I think this is, this is me. It— for the first time in my life, and this— oh, this sounds such a cliché, Markus. But it's true. It's— I am completely myself. And wherever I am, I am me. And of course, I can play the upset father, and I can play, you know, the grumpy customer, whatever. But I feel that I can always be completely myself, and I— and that happens because of that tremendous big reset I had in my life that was completely unexpected. And then creating— and then using the language linear, nonlinear, that changed everything for me, I think. That wasn't even purposely, you know, everything came together. This is all looking back at things in reflection, like, but this has happened and this has happened. I wasn't aware what was happening at that time at all. It wasn't the purpose. But now when I look back, and I'm doing this now for 5 years, I can say that I really feel that I can be, and I am, Almost always completely myself. I think I can just say that I can always be myself.

Yeah. And you said something beautiful. You hesitated after I am. Did you realize that?

No.

Because that's enough. That is the key. I am.

Yeah.

And the rest literally just follow-ups. Yep.

So it hasn't been the case like that, Markus.

That's what I actually want to go into next.

Yeah, that wasn't—

so if I look at you, you are now around 35 years old. So it all started around 30, you say, right?

Thank you.

You're

welcome. Yeah, no, I was 45, and it wasn't a midlife crisis because I think My behavior, I think I have always been into my midlife crisis, even when I was 12. I've always been a bit weird, a bit different. Um, so you could say, oh dear, you know, here he goes, white dude with the beard in his midlife crisis, and, you know, cliché. But that's— those are the laws of thought, you know. We're trapped in that. Everybody thinks that they know because That's how we think, but

that

wasn't the case at all. And before this change, I thought I was myself, but I was not. And, and if you would have asked me to answer the question honestly 8 years ago, I would have said, no, I'm not always myself. I can't. I cannot be myself. I really had the idea that it was impossible to be myself.

What stopped you from being yourself back then?

The idea that I was doing it all wrong. The idea that I need to have permission to do Whatever. The idea to do well and the idea to have permission, that without permission it will never work. I think a lot of people think that way. I think we are all conditioned that we need permission to do so, which is BS. It's not true.

Mm-hmm. And

becoming homeless, I discovered that that's a big BS, that it's not about the permission of anyone ever, ever. Because when I was homeless, I— nothing changed. I keep saying that to people, but I find that so interesting, is that nothing really changed for me. So my, my feelings, my thoughts, my values— Very important. Didn't change. So yes, you don't have a house, you don't have anything, and, and there you are. But this is, this, this is the same, you know. I can't explain how important this is. So if this is the the exact same when you lose everything, then this is the exact same when you have everything.

Mm-hmm.

So when you have the 2 opposites, nothing and everything, but everything stays the same here. And we all think that if we can buy that super cool watch or drive that Mercedes-Benz or whatever, then here something will happen. Yes, of course, you know, the first— what is it, they did research for that— the first 4 weeks in a new car is very exciting. But really nothing changes. And if nothing changes when you're here when everything goes wrong, or here when everything works out, if that's the same then why are we asking permission? Because it becomes irrelevant. Because you need to do it yourself. And it's— and it doesn't matter. It's not the case. And I find this very important because I sometimes see people, you know, there are a lot of people on social media sharing what they think and giving advice and whatnot. And then I hear people saying, you know, it's, it's It's not important what other people think. But I always find that difficult because we do care what other people think.

Yeah.

I don't think it works that way, that you can say, I don't care what other people are saying, it's not relevant to me. You know, what I did figure out was That it's relevant, but I don't need it.

Mm-hmm.

I don't, I don't need permission to do anything. I don't need anyone to say, oh, that's a good idea. By the way, thank you, AI, because AI is becoming that new friend who's constantly saying everything that I say, oh, it's such a wonderful idea. So we don't need permission anymore from any other human being on this planet, you just go to your AI and says, thumbs up, you're doing a good job. But in this beginning, after being homeless and starting the Octopus Movement, I didn't— I wasn't looking for permission. I wasn't looking for a thumbs up, you're doing a good job. I just wanted to do this for myself. Like, how— I want to create something that makes me happy. as a weird individual in a space where I belong, where I can be myself.

Mm-hmm.

And that was it. And if someone was being negative, sharing their opinion out of the blue, my thought always was, where were you when I was homeless? You know, where were you?

Uh-huh.

And that means a lot to me. Like, it's not negative, it's not pushing away, but it's the realization that when everything goes wrong, not a lot of people are there. So that's it. And that's also why I really enjoy connecting with others, seeing what's happening, and I, I can't help everyone, but if I can do something to make it better, I will, and I enjoy that. Do I have Mother Teresa syndrome? I don't know how you call that, but no, I don't. I'm just having fun. I'm, I'm just hanging out with some cool people. Where I know that by doing this together, it makes me happy. And guess what? It makes the other weirdos happy as well.

So— Absolutely does. And so thank you for sharing so openly.

Yeah. And

that's why it explains a lot.

And that's why I feel that I can be myself wherever I am, and that I feel that I am myself. And if I'm in a situation, what is totally not in line with what my values are, then I can use the language of linear, nonlinear. I can say, oh, this is a very linear situation. That's not being judgmental by me, but it means there is a given structure that doesn't work with me at that moment. That's it. You know.

Let's stay here for a moment. You mentioned that it is probably not true when someone says, I don't care what other people think, because people always think. So what I realized, and I'm curious to hear your take on that, I was concerned about what other people thought because the permission system works exactly like that. I need permission from those people who have an opinion about me and about what I'm doing. Mm-hmm. So with time, I realized, and I didn't go homeless, but I experienced a lot in my life to the point that I said, you know what, they are like voices. It's almost like you're having a bird and the bird is flying above your head. You can't stop it from flying there, right? It's just there. It can come closer. And unless it's in your arm's reach, you can't do much about it either. But when it comes closer and you let it come, let's say, above your head, that's pretty much your own choice. When you let it land on your head, that's pretty much your choice. And when you actually let it build a nest, Then we're screwed. So you don't have to tell anyone, you know, this, this bird is now having a home in my, in my mind because it is.

Mm-hmm.

And I believe when we understand that people's opinions matter as long and are okay as long as I do not take them as the gospel for who I am. Yeah. And there's something really interesting about your homeless story. I make a little experiment with you. When I got you correctly, what you said was before everything went well, and then when you became homeless, it was the opposite, correct? What if we flipped that? Nothing went well. Before you were homeless, and then everything got stripped away that was not meant to be Perry Knopper, and your homelessness was actually the threshold to get to the place who you really are.

Absolutely. And, and now I see that as pausing the system. I paused the system without realizing

it. Exactly. That's what you've done.

Yeah. I had no idea. And I'm not saying that because marketing-wise it sounds good, you know, or it's just a story. Really no idea. I had no— it was horrible. And I felt sorry for myself and I couldn't see the kids.

Of course.

It was awful. But I do realize, when I think back at the time, I was enjoying the fact that there was a big pause, that everything stopped. All the emails,

all the phone calls, all the letters. Now your microphone is coming a little bit in and out.

Oh, sorry.

Yeah, that's better. Wonderful.

Um, it really paused everything. And, and, and that gave a lot of space, and that created silence, quietness. And before, I was always with other people. I, I enjoyed hanging out with my friends and, you know, dinner parties and very busy. Now, I really love being by myself.

Mm-hmm.

And no loneliness anymore, although it can be very quiet. But that has to do with being yourself. If you can be yourself, then there is no loneliness, in my opinion. It's, it's pausing the system. And I think pausing the system is a solution for many things, many, many things. Not just life, not just being 50 and a beer. I think pausing the system could change everything. Pausing the system could be a solution for the educational system by being able to say, okay, this is how we've always done it.

Mm-hmm.

For this individual, we will stop. People will always say, yeah, but if we start with one individual pausing the system, then we need to pause with everyone, and then everybody will come with their questions and their difficulties. I don't— I would love to do some research on that, but I don't believe that. Right. If I look at the Octopus Movement, we have around 11,000 members. We don't have any rules. And in the beginning of the movement, people were saying to me, you can't do this. You can't create a community this large, or not, you know, it's only 11,000 people, it's not that many, but you can't do this without rules.

Right.

Yet I'm very excited to say that we don't have any rules and it's never been a problem. And I think if you allow things to be as they are and nature to organize the things that needs to be organized, I think pausing the system can work like that as well. I don't think we go to a middle school where they use pause the system. I don't think all students will go to the counselor and say, I want you to pause my system because I haven't done my homework.

No, that definitely doesn't work. And you know what's interesting? Let's look at your octopus movement for a moment. What is very interesting to realize is, and you know, and I joined your call once, and I would love to talk on another private call more about that. But what I realized is you showing up in your coherence, you already bring that order almost as a sacred space. Whoever enters your call automatically with their nervous system submits to your frequency.

Yep.

You might have realized that because you have very strong people. Like on the one call I was there where you talked about AI and didn't dare to go into, you know, details. There were like some very strong people. So I could tell there is something you have that contains them. But then suddenly, almost like a signal is fired. And that's when they feel called to Literally overrun everything. So that is a very interesting thing. So you said that you're basically always yourself. Mm-hmm. What pulls you out of yourself, even just momentarily? And how do you come back?

I think that, you know, I'm thinking, when do I do that? Yeah. I have to think about a situation where I was not completely myself. Maybe there's frustration, maybe there's anger, not being heard or seen. You're trying to explain something. Let me give you an example. I was at a school. Sorry, talking about schools again. I have 3 kids and all of us are very nonlinear. So sometimes I need to go to school to explain something. Because something went wrong. In this case, I had to go to the school of my oldest son, who's now 20, and when we had the meeting, he was 19. And school was very upset that the parent of a 19-year-old adult was coming to school. I am myself. I don't care what is normal or what not— what is not. And the counselor said, I've never Seen a parent coming to school because we only have adult students. I said, well, congratulations, this is the first time. The conversation didn't go well at all. Not at all. And I have moments where I maybe can feel that I'm becoming frustrated, but I have a mantra. Mm-hmm. And my mantra is, turn on your nonlinear thinking, tune in to the human mycelium, and drop out of the laws of thought. This is a bit Leary that I have stolen from him and tweaked it into my own version. The nonlinear thinking for me is to quiet the brain. So if I have thoughts that are not serving me, then I have to let go of these thoughts. How do I do that? I've mastered, I can say that. But I really wanted to be able to quiet the brain. I've always thought, how cool would it be to flip the switch? When I was 16, I saw Deepak Chopra at Oprah explaining that during a conversation, he could flip the switch and there are no thoughts. I was 15 or 16, Markus, when I saw that. And I was like, wow, that's cool. I was different because I saw these things and all my friends were like, you know, they weren't thinking about Deepak Chopra at Oprah. shutting down his brain or his thoughts. And I've always thought about it, and I've always thought, how cool would it be to be in control of that? Not, not to think, but to control emptiness.

Uh-huh.

I started to call that the beauty between thoughts, and I see that as nonlinear thinking. And I started practicing meditation. Didn't work. Um, started practicing more meditation. Didn't work at all. All these meditation apps, and I was trying everything. No. Then I lived in China and I did some hot yoga. That was awesome. Trying to do it there, no way. You know, I was thinking, geez, it's so hot in here. And my thoughts were constantly firing up. How can I do this? And again, after the hard reset, it worked. And it worked by practicing under the shower. I was pressing, pressuring here at a specific spot on my body where it doesn't feel very nice when I do that. And because there is this nasty sensation when I press there, the thought automatically goes here. I discovered that, like, oh, that's interesting. And when I think about this pain, the thought goes away. And there was this tiny little space of nothing between the thought and focusing on the pain. And that's why— that's when I started practicing more and more and more. And now, during a conversation with you as well, Sometimes it just stops. It's just— and it's— and it, it, it gives me, um, the space to be myself and to not to take over. Because sometimes you can be in a conversation and you go blah blah blah blah, and then after half an hour you're thinking, what did I just say? You know what?

Mm-hmm.

I don't want that. It's not that I, that I need to be in control, but it needs to, it needs to quiet down a little bit. So that's turn on the nonlinear thinking, tune into the human mycelium is this, it's the connection. I believe that we're all connected anyway, even if we don't know each other. And the frequency and the The connection that we have here. I'm looking at my flipping laptop, Markus, and I still have the feeling that I'm connected with you. I'm looking at a screen. How is that possible? For me, the headset works. I need to hear your voice really coming into my brain, and I can still feel you although I'm looking at a bloody computer. How weird is that?

It's the field,

right? And dropping out of the laws of thought is— we're so conditioned to think in a specific way.

Mm-hmm.

And by using that nonlinear empty space and knowing we're connected anyway, I think it's possible to isolate the thought, whatever it is, Mm-hmm. And just put it out there. Now, my girlfriend would, if she's listening to this, she's saying, it's all in your head, Perry. You're too much in your head. It's not true. It's not all in my head. It's also the feeling that I have. It's also the feeling when I'm with someone and I feel something that I want to disconnect that as well. If someone is not feeling well, I feel that. If something is not going well, I can feel that. So it's not just in the head. And then when in a conversation something goes wrong and I feel I get frustrated because that person is not listening to me or doesn't want to listen to me, and, you know,

or can't,

then I press that button, that Deepak Chopra, Oprah button to create some space, drop out of the laws of thought, like, this is really stupid, Cees is doing that, and try to relax. Do I have everything under control? Hell no. Of course not. I'm very passionate, so I can still be very upset or angry when something is really, really wrong. But I do feel that I can go back 9 out of 10 times easily into myself, like, okay, this is your thing. And the thought always comes back to me, where were you when I was homeless? So, you know.

Which I believe is an amazing, an amazing mantra to have.

Yeah.

Where were you when I was homeless?

Yeah.

You know what's interesting? Probably quite a few people who watch or listen to this episode, Perry, will probably say, I don't know really how that works with this button, and that's probably not to be developed overnight. So to those, I say, look, those thoughts, they can come. But it is your choice to let them in. Because when people tell me, but Markus, now I'm on that path of enlightenment or whatever they want to call it, they say all negativity is gone, all challenging thoughts are gone. And I say, sorry, that's BS. They're not gone. you might learn how to deal with them and to realize they're not yours.

Mm-hmm.

So it's almost like if I want to give you a present and you don't know what I'm handing to you, you might probably naturally say, Markus, let's just first talk about what you want to hand to me instead of simply accepting because it's a present. And I believe we humans have to understand it's very similar with the system trying to accept any thought as its own.

Yeah.

Like, literally, we have to say to our system, look, I understand you are programmed in certain ways. And based on that, you have a quite lax system of accepting gifts, because thoughts are gifts. As you know, some people say, you know, you're quite a gift, or you're quite the gift. So it can be pretty much either or, and it's neutral in the end. But people really have to understand that we are partly, I don't know, like 97% is subconscious, what's going on in our lives. And about 97% of that is BS, is negative. So how I personally see coherence is thought and heart go into coherence. But, you know, the mind is pretty much filled from outside, be it education, society, whatever, right? Families and whatever. And even the heart is kind of contained. And that's why I'm saying most people, when they speak about coherence, it doesn't go far enough for me. Because when heart and mind is in coherence, it opens a channel to something absolutely initial. Like, if you think back, you mentioned 14, 15, 16. Let's go back 10 more years. Where were you when you were 3, 4, 5, 6 years old? I was an absolute free spirit. No one had to tell me how to think, what was possible, because I told them in my own way, I'll show you. I'll show you. So what if at our age, by the way, I'm 3 years older, I'm 53 now. So what if at our age, it's actually remembering who we once were? Combine that with the entire path we walked. And that itself actually builds the key for a beautiful life. Because, you know, when I went on this journey, I had a realization. The reason to be alive is to remember who we once were before the world told us who we had to become. And this is what I realized when I have conversations, and I'm pretty sure you experienced something similar in your own calls. It's almost like that sacred space I mentioned.

Mm-hmm.

And you managed to do it with, you know, quite a few members. I was on call with quite a few members. And that sacred space makes it possible for other people to drop the guards, to simply show up as who they are. And that is the coherence part. So you kind of enable that coherence between their thoughts and their hearts. And then you take it a step further. You actually connect them with themselves. That's why I love my work. I don't teach anyone anything. I help them to remember who they once were. And then I help them long enough to keep all the BS, all the noise outside enough so they can reconnect with who they once were. And that's why I said already in, you know, in our, in our first conversation today, That's why I was looking forward to our call, because I could sense just from the one call, we are really kindred spirits in terms of that. Yeah. And I rarely meet someone like you, I can tell you that much. Because not once did I have to translate, okay, he actually means that in my, in my understanding, it's that. So let me not react to it, because we are actually meaning the same. So The energy is really level, which is beautiful. It's really beautiful.

Thank you.

You're welcome. No, it's a real privilege to have you on my show today. So this brings me already to my last question, Perry, and this is a deep one. If someone feels lost in the noise right now, What would you want them to remember?

To remember? So being lost in the noise, meaning Because that can mean so many things, right?

It's the opposite of stillness, opposite of coherence.

Maybe they— maybe they— oh, how about this? Maybe Maybe they should remember that they already had a fight for 299 billion times before they got born, before there was birth. I love that thought, right? What are the chances? It has been a trend a little bit on social media to talk about that. What are the chances To be alive. And, uh, I forgot his name. He calculated it and made it in such a beautiful story. And I love that when I saw that. And I was thinking about that, like, if you have won the battle already for 299 billion times, because 1 on 300 billion is the chances to be born or something like that. I sometimes think about that. You know, it's life can be very challenging. I also always think whatever happens today, bring it on. Whatever it is, I'm fine with that. And when there's so much noise and you're thinking, I don't know anymore, then. Think about that you have won already so many times because you're here. And hopefully by thinking that way, I don't know, but hopefully it kills the noise a little bit because it makes things irrelevant. Hopefully, right? You're here. Isn't it amazing?

Indeed it is.

It sounds such a cliché, but it is so Fucking cool.

It's no cliché. It is fucking cool.

It is.

Absolutely is.

Why would you be— why would you be lost and drowning in all the noise? Why would you be upset anyway? Why would you be frustrated? Why would you be angry? And I am angry and frustrated from time to time. Trust me, I'm not like A monk sitting on a mountain and everything is fine, because that would be boring as well, Markus. I love the challenge of, okay, Perry, now it's time to disconnect from the laws of thought. Oh, difficult. Yeah, it's, it's nice. I like problems. I, I'd like it to be difficult. And maybe that's also why I love all the things that I'm doing. It is difficult. And therefore very exciting. But I've won so many times, so why not again?

What a beautiful ending, Perry.

I hope so.

Thank you so much for having been my guest today. It was a huge pleasure.

Thank you, Markus. Really cool to dance the octopus dance together. That's how it feels for me, right?

That's beautiful.

Yeah, thank you.

And with that, this was Remembering the Forgotten, a conversation held in clarity, not performance. If something in this exchange shifted how you see, let it stay with you. A few quiet pointers are waiting below.