Ep 30 Being With, Not For A Conversation with Samuel Hitz

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no personas, just a quiet clarity that emerges when the noise drops and the mind is free to speak for itself. Today, I'm joined by Sam Hitz. Sam works in places where change is unavoidable. And where clarity is not luxury, where technology moves fast, structures shift, and people are asked to adapt in real time. But this conversation isn't about transformation programs, AI, or the systems he helps build. It's about what remains when change no longer needs to be pushed. When resistance softens, when intelligence listens before it acts. Sam carries a calm that comes from years of being inside complexity without needing to dominate it. He knows when movement is required, when restraint is wiser, and how stillness inside disruption allows the next step to reveal itself without force. This is a conversation about trusting change, not as an idea, but as a lived experience. With this, Sam, thank you so much for joining the show and welcome.

Markus, thanks for having me. It's a great pleasure to be with you today. To have this conversation. I'm really excited. Thank you so much.

Well, the pleasure is all mine. You're welcome. So before we begin, when I say coherence, I'm pointing to a state where nothing inside is at odds. Body, thoughts, emotions, and action move as one. There is no push, no urgency, No fear driving the moment. And when I say stillness, I don't mean silence. I mean the part of you untouched by expectation or performance, the place that already knows before the mind takes over. That's where I'd like us to meet today.

Wonderful introduction, Markus. Absolutely thrilled to enjoy that stillness, not in silence, together with you today. And it reminds me a lot of coming home to my 2 small children when I have a busy day with a lot of noise, with a lot of action. And then I remember my kids, they don't want me to perform. They don't want me to be successful. They want me to be there. To have time for them and only for them. And that's all what counts. And sometimes I try to bring that back to my business day, to have that clarity and that stillness. But I'm not always successful with that, to be honest.

That's so beautiful because this is literally leading into my first question for you. Where can you just be yourself? So let's talk about your children first and then see whether there are other places. So I'm really curious, Sam, what is it— you started to allude to it a little bit— but what is it really that lets you just be yourself as a grown-up with children?

Yeah, yeah, that's really a great question. I think the main difference with my small children and probably with any child is that they do not have, um, expect— uh, an, an expectancy, and they don't require you to perform or to act in a different way. They want you. They want time with you. They want to share what they experience. They want to, um, listen to you, but they want to talk to you. They need you just to listen and to be there. Spend time and be only in that moment. No distractions with mobile phones and anything. They just want you to be there. And if you ask me, are there any other places feeling myself, being myself? To be honest, it's really hard. But I feel most— not appreciated, but myself in situations where I have security, safety, emotional safety where I can be wrong, I can be right, I can do the right things or lead or not lead or listen or talk, and still I'm myself. And it's quite hard in a tough business. So I really enjoy coming home and dive into that stillness, which is a loud stillness, as you can imagine.

You see, and that is the beauty. I alluded to that in the intro already. Stillness is not quiet. Stillness is not silence. Stillness is full of life. And you know, you and I have been on a call already, so you understand when I say that stillness really is extremely powerful. With stillness, you realize that person is alive. The rest is, yeah, I meditate, then I'm going into silence, but that's not stillness. So you see, this really puzzles me. Think about what we're just talking about. You as a grown man meet your children, and this is basically the only place where this grown man can feel safe, can be himself. Void of any expectations from the outside. Isn't that crazy?

Absolutely crazy. And how can we all overcome that craziness? How can we transform that magic, that powerful stillness into our other life where we have to perform in some way, of course, but still, how can we transfer transform that into our daily business life. I'm still puzzled how to do that, and sometimes I feel it's going in the, in the right direction. I have a meeting with a few people, um, there is no pressure about time, there is a topic we can discuss, and everyone can share his or her own opinions, feelings, thoughts, and fears. And that helps a lot to de-stress such a situation. I'm not sure if that's the— if that's the way, or if it's just the focus on one thing and not being distracted by many other things and all the noise. It's really puzzling. I don't know what you experience, but—

Yeah. By listening to you, I really feel that you and I will actually tap into a whole new possibility. And it's only starting to come together in me right now. So I'm careful how I, how I word it somehow. Picture this. Grown up means grown up. One thing is for clear: they are expectations, right? They are spoken out loud expectations. They are contractual expectations, and those you can deal with really well. It's like the law, right? You know what's right, what's wrong. If you adhere to those, you have a very peaceful life. The societal expectations between grownups is a catalog, unwritten, not communicated, changing every single moment, depending on circumstances and people involved. So you know there are expectations and you go into it quite careful. You enter a grown-up conversation with apprehension because you're protecting yourself. How old are your kids, by the way?

Oh, my daughter is— she has just turned 1. And my older boy is 5 years old.

You see, and that is usually the age after 5 where the expectations from society become so strong that this little boy starts losing that initial innate trust. And believe me, this is your job to make sure that this boy stays with that trust. Because that's the only thing that will save him in today's society. So 1 year and 5 years. If one had asked me, Sam, how old do you believe his girl and his boy is? I would've said 9 and 14. No, it makes total sense. Your girl is 1 year old, as innocent as she could be.

To be cute.

Right, right. So you go to her and you say, you know, I do a little bit of role play now. So you go to your girl inside and you say, let's call her Sue. Sue, tell me about your expectations toward me. And she sits there, looks at you, says, what is that? So for a while, you try to understand what her hidden expectations are toward you. And every single time she looks at you like, what are you talking about? So with your 5-year-old boy— A

little different answer.

What would he say?

He would say, I expect you to entertain me. I expect you Um, to play with me. I expect you to bring me to bed a bit later tonight because, you know, yeah, yeah. Um, I expect you to give me a bit more sweets than Mom does. So he has already expectations towards me. They're a bit more natural. They're a bit more, um, how can I say, serving, uh, really a natural need, basic need probably. Um,

yeah.

But he doesn't want me to be successful, seen as an important person. He doesn't want me to articulate in the right way. He just—

I love

that. And as you said, my small baby girl, she has even more basic needs. She wants me to be fed. She wants me to change her. And she articulates that, of course, not in a verbal way because her speaking abilities are not that That developed yet. That's so interesting. The main thing, the common thing between those 2 kids, lovely kids, is that they want me to be with them.

That's what it should be, doesn't it? That's the craziness. It's not Grownups do not want to be— want you to be with them. They want you to be there for them.

For them. Exactly. Yeah.

That's where the expectation comes into play. Now think about that. Is that an issue of the other person? Or is that issue with yourself? Let me paraphrase it. When 2 people meet, you know, this person wants you to be for them and not with them. Is it that person's problem or is it yours?

That's a difficult question. I would say it's the problem of both of them, but I would always start with myself. So if I serve their needs to be for them, they will ask for more of that. But if I show them that I can be with them, I'm pretty sure they will enjoy that. They will ask more of that rather than being for them and do something for them and have a transactional benefit in some way or the other for them. So being with them in that situation, in that moment, will enlighten them in a way. And I believe they will require more of that and enjoy it. So in the end, I would say it's more my problem.

One could think that they would enjoy it and ask more of that. I can almost promise you this will not last for long. Because when I have expectations toward you, and I am raised that somebody else is here to fulfill my needs as a baby, right? Pretty much, that's how it starts. And you want to be instead with me. You refuse to fulfill my needs. Guess what happens? I start to resent you.

Hard.

So, so let's put something into the room that is entirely your issue, and not the other person's. And you know where it actually starts then? And I take it from you to me, it's easier for me to acknowledge my role in this world. is not to be for anyone. My role in this world is not to serve as substitute for anyone else's neglectance of taking care of themselves. So now imagine, now we flip it. You actually imagine that, yes, the other person has their wants and desires toward you. But you're very clear, this is not my job. And I believe that's where it starts. That you say to yourself, it's not about how far can I reach until it almost hurts me because I am giving so much of me, which we usually do, especially in German, Switzerland, Austria, the DACH area, but that you actually say to yourself, you know, that's interesting. This person actually behaves like a grown-up child, unwilling to take responsibility for her or for his own needs. And this has become so socially acceptable, Sam. Yeah. that everyone plays along. So basically, I could say to you, okay, I observe, let's say, 24 hours in your day. And I say to myself, okay, Stan made sure that he didn't overstretch his limits too much. And everyone else would say, yeah, that's what being grown up is all about. Give and take, having it in a ratio that doesn't really hurt me too much, but I don't get too defensive or being seen as someone who becomes difficult. But if I would look at it, I would then suddenly say, Sam, is being a human and is being alive about reducing the pain to an acceptable level? Or is life and being alive about reducing all that pain, which is unnecessary because it's not yours, it's the other person's? And actually say, if I leave a call I should be not too much depleted. I should be energized. I should leave as if I had not even been on that call because nothing was asked from me that wasn't natural. Nothing was taken from me.

Right.

Because I felt I needed to give it based on these social contracts. So what if what you actually experience now, especially with your baby girl, could actually be the key to a constant living in that environment? That you literally say to yourself, what if society has it actually wrong? And it's billions of people, Sam, who believe that. Billions of people who say, you know what? When I meet someone, they are first and foremost here for me. You know very well in German, geben und nehmen, huh?

Yeah, it's always about the balance. Yeah, yeah, that's how we arrange. That's all we—

when I was teaching, that was one of the lessons I had for my students. And I said to them, look, give and take in English. is absolutely unnatural. They said, no, no, no, that's normal. I said, yeah, yeah, society has made it normal because they do not know better.

But

think about it. Think about it. Let's go.

Absolutely interesting.

It's the norm, but it's not normal. And that's interesting.

I would say, I would frame it like it's norm, it's the norm and it's normal, but it's definitely not natural. Because we— it's deep rooted inside our behavior, our culture. That's how we were raised. That's how we were taught to act, give and take, and, you know, create some kind of a transactional balance.

Yeah. But you know where that comes from? It's very deep.

Is it?

I don't deserve it.

That's why I have to and give something back. I have to take it.

I'm not give. It is worse. It is much worse. It is not take and give; it's give and take. It's geben und nehmen. So why do I give first? Because I know already. I feel guilty because I will take from you, so I give something to you first.

So I better give something first because later I will be in need and take something.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Wouldn't it be better to teach our children and the whole society with that, that it's not give and take, but receive and receive?

Exactly. It is give. And receive. It is give and receive. It's geben und erhalten in German.

No,

take and give. Yes, if you can teach that to your children, because you know what it comes down to is people say there is a lack of resources. No, there is not lack of resources. There is lack of fair allocation of resources. But there is more than enough money. There is more than enough air. There is more than enough business. There is more than enough anything in this world.

Except one resource. I would disagree only with one resource. We completely agree. Time. Time is limited.

Everyone has the same amount. It's allocation. That's true.

In general, it's limited. Yeah, I agree. Everyone has exactly the same amount of time. It's just a question of what other opportunities I miss.

It's allocation. It's allocation. You know, are you familiar with the Serenity Prayer from the Anonymous Alcoholics? God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change and the courage to change things I can change and the wisdom to separate these two.

Wow.

So what is the problem in regards to time? I focus on stuff that I should not focus on. So I have no energy on focusing on the stuff I should focus on. So in the end, it seems I don't have enough time.

Okay.

Does that make sense?

That makes absolutely sense. So stop wasting your time on unnecessary, useless nonsense things.

Yes.

Put your full energy in the Things that really matter to you and your loved ones.

Yes. So if you think about that, if my boss is angry or if your employee is angry, can you change that? No. No. So stop worrying about your employee and begin to understand the only thing that will change is your attitude. When your attitude changes, that's in your power, your attitude towards your employee. Guess what? The employee will change. But if you try to change somebody else, you have lost.

Would you agree that's the same with motivating people? Can you motivate someone or has to that come within someone to be self-motivated, to have an intrinsic motivation, not an extrinsic motivation? Do you believe motivation goes in the same direction?

It's a very deep question you ask. And what I want to look at first is, what does motivation really mean? Because I used to ask my classes every single time, can you be motivated for something you do not like? And they said, Markus, that's almost impossible. Because motivation is about something I like, something I love, something that gives me energy. And I say, yeah, that's the misconception. And that's why you are so miserable. Because, you know, if we look at the origin of motivation, it's very simple. The original root word is muovere. And muovere means what drives you. So the issue is not that you don't have drive. The issue is that you do have nothing that is worth having drive for. So when you focus on stuff that doesn't give you pleasure, you don't find motivation. So, you know, I was teaching in a concept of work, which you are very familiar with. So I said to them, look, In the end, you have a task, and the task has to be fulfilled because you're freaking paid for it. It's not because you like it. You're being paid for it. You literally sold your time for 9.5 hours per day to my good. That's what people do not get. They believe they're there to have fun and to have a good time and do stuff they love. No. If it's 5 to 10% of stuff they really love, that is a gift. But they have given away that right to do stuff that they love in order to be paid. Simply.

Good point. Absolutely simple. Yeah, absolutely simple.

So now if you look at it, there is a, you know, people then ask me, but Markus, are you motivated By all that stuff you're doing. I said, look, in this course, for example, there is one thing I absolutely hate and still it motivates me. But why? Because it is part, it is an important step and a vital little step for me to get you to the finish line.

Which is the journey, which is the goal and the purpose in the end. Even though many steps in between are absolutely painful, And I remember someone told me a long time ago that when you hear follow your passion and do only what you love, that's absolutely nonsense because only billionaires tell you to do that. And, you know, but what he said is—

You know, they did not do that to get there.

Exactly, exactly. Now it's easy to say follow your passion and do only what you love, but he said You better love what you have to do instead of love to do, you know, do only what you love. And somehow it stuck with me, and I do many things I'm not thrilled and I don't love, even hate it, but it serves a bigger picture, serves a bigger purpose, and therefore I still have that kind of motivation.

Because you know what's interesting? So let's look at it this way. Too many people look at it quite naively. They go to work at 10:15, they have a task which they utmost hate. They cannot see it as a part of the bigger picture, which is just tiny bit more than what they're looking at, right? Just as much, no more. Just this much. If I tell them, look, this little part is part of an even bigger picture, actually, that you're not going to lose your job because you will only get paid as long as you do your job, that already blows their mind. But when I tell them the job is something of an even bigger picture because it allows me to do things And now they suddenly say, huh, my job has a purpose. The job is not the purpose.

Freedom.

The job has— yes, yes. But you see, people do not think like that.

They're so— That makes them miserable. Yeah, that makes them miserable every day. And they go in a—

Take your 5-year-old child, move them into grown-up clothes, make him grow in size, and you have your son.

Absolutely. Yeah.

That's it. So you as a boss have to make sure that people are motivated by understanding, look, if you hate it, you need to do it because I freaking pay you for that time. And I pay you to do stuff you do not want. And guess what, Sam? If you do not like that job, you can leave and look for a new one.

Yeah, you have all the opportunities to find—

Yeah, people believe, and let me be honest, when I read your post, and once again, congratulations to your interim position, I love it. And you will go into that section where we talk about a lot, I believe. What it comes down to is there is this new movement between management and leadership.

Yeah.

The new leader is here to make sure that their employees love what they do and in best case only have to do what they love. That's bullshit. That's utmost bullshit. The manager is not just here to do what they say now. Did we talk about leadership? Yes, leadership was part of me being a manager. It didn't need a leader and a manager. And I once— you're very close in AI. So I asked AI once many, many years back, Why is it that leadership and management has now been separated? You know what the answer was?

I'm curious.

It's almost impossible to find a person who inherits both roles naturally.

Oh, interesting. Okay.

And I thought, what the heck? What the heck? Now we have almost like a An enemy picture, a fine field between managers and leaders, because the leaders are for the people and the manager is for the business. Guess what? If a leader doesn't understand that he has to be first and foremost for the company, what will happen?

He will not be a leader for long, that's for sure.

Exactly. But there is an entire generation now of employees who is praying for this kind of leaders because they make it possible for them to make job and work enjoyable.

I disagree with that idea, a leader to be here to make a happy life for their workforce and to make them Yeah, you know, to give them only the tasks they love. For me, the differentiation between a leader and the manager— I'm not sure that the terms are correct, but my differentiation is a manager is often within an organization. He's on a payroll, and he makes sure that things are done correctly in a certain manner. in a certain quality, in the right timeline, and so on. Important role. We need managers in big organizations, in corporations. A leader for me is someone who makes sure that we do the right things and shows the path always for the business. It's not for the people, it's for the business. Of course, people can grow within the business and enjoy themselves and have fun. Even if they want to have fun, that's fine. But a manager is more towards doing the things right, and the leader is more do the right things and also be the one that goes ahead and shows them the path. And in disruptive areas where you have to change, because a manager is very good in dealing with repetitive, not only repetitive task, but a business model that doesn't change. Let's say you produce automobiles, then you do that in a certain way and maybe have some innovation and the new models, fine, but it's always the same business model. Now with the electric vehicles, it's not only a new technology, it's a complete different business model. And that's what the incumbent carmakers didn't realize. They thought we can do also electric vehicles fine. Yeah, that's what they do. But what especially the Chinese carmakers, electro carmakers realize is it's a complete different business model. And there you need a leader, and the manager is not good enough. That's my definition. Um, maybe you have a different definition about leaders and managers.

I'd like to add something to that. I really love your, your approach. Let's think about it from a slightly different angle. What if being a leader is your foundation, and being a leader has to be completely re-explained? You know, it was interesting. When I went for a coaching certificate, on the second day, I had an argument with the teacher. I got to the point where I said to him, look, you're a coach. I am not a coach. I use coaching as a methodology. So I let you be and you let me be. I will never come back to your institution. I don't want any more certificates. I just want this. So what I've done is I took myself from a coach to someone who uses coaching as a methodology.

Right.

So what if we actually identified characteristics that a leader consists of. And we use that as a foundation. So that means a leader is not born, a leader is grown into.

And equipped with the tools and the methodologies and this training and learning. Yeah. Okay.

I go even a step further. I say it is an attitude.

Hmm.

What if this attitude is this foundation? And then you can start using managing and you can use leading depending on what is required. Because I can tell you, you would love to be the leader. But in your new position, you will have to be able to switch between these positions all the single time in one moment to the other. Because if you don't manage, you'll be gone, literally. And managing, you see what's interesting, it's the to manage which you refer to in terms of the automotive industry. But managing itself is an art form. People who cannot manage want to lead. And then they say, you know what, It's so much better because we are for the people. We are doing the things, the right things. Honestly, I could bring you a whole club of managers who would sit next to us saying, what do you really believe you are? Do you really think we are doing the things right and not the right things simply because we're managers?

Mm-hmm.

That's naive. I'll give you a parallel example, which actually might help to give substance to it. As you know, I used to do leadership coaching. And quite often when I did leadership coaching, I asked the manager or the leader, whatever, what is your leadership style?

Hmm. Interesting question.

What is your leadership style?

My leadership style? Oh, that depends a lot on the situation. I don't have a general leadership style. I would lose in most of the cases.

And with you, I absolutely believe what you just said. Most people who say I have a situational leadership style, I begin to laugh.

Okay. Why is that?

Because they don't— oh, I show you. So imagine, imagine, and with you, and I show you why I believe you right away. When somebody comes, they say, my thing is situational. At the same time, when I say to them, what is your go-to leadership style? They usually know 1 or 2 max.

Mm-hmm.

You do not. You have 6 or 7 leadership styles. And everyone who listens to this episode, pay attention to it because it's very important. What this guy is doing is masterful crafting. Because what you're doing is you understand every single person with every single different task in every single different situation, At every single different moment requires a different leadership style. So let's say you have a naughty boy or a naughty girl in your business. You have to be more directive. So that's the people who say, I need to be micromanaging, right? Because I can't trust people. But then you have someone like me as an employee. Most of the times you can let me just run. Participative, right? You can't just let me run. But there are times where you say, Markus, now you need to do what I say.

Just do it.

No, that's not fun. That's not fun. And I probably ask you, but Sand, why? And if you are silly enough to say, because I say so, you have lost.

Yeah.

But when you say, Markus, I can show you exactly why. Because when you have too much creativity here, you're going to lose quite a bit of money. Guess what? I'm the first one who says, okay, for the next 5 days, I'm going to be mostly in directive. You tell me, you come here, you check, and you say okay or stop. So you know that each situation, each person, each moment, each task has a different requirement for management style. People don't get that. People don't get that. And that's why they fail in leadership. That's why they curse the management because they don't freaking know how to manage people.

That's very interesting. Do you really think they have like a one-size-fits-all structure?

Yes, absolutely.

Like, I have a style, that's my management or leadership style, and that leads me to the most—

Oh yes, and mostly And mostly it's laissez-faire.

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

And why is laissez-faire? Because I cannot lead, I cannot manage. So it becomes laissez-faire. And then what we do is—

They don't even care.

Yes. But you see, the thing is, yes, they do care because what they are doing is they're actually lying to themselves and they're lying to others by saying my style is situational. No, your style is you have no management style. You have lost control over your entire crew. You call it leadership now, but you have lost control. Yes, because I don't want to control my people. Bullshit. You have to control your people. It's not a church group that comes together for the greater good of magnifying God. It is people coming together for a cause they would never even think about showing up unless they are paid.

Absolutely.

It's what people have to understand.

Well, sometimes I wish that people will worship me, but sadly it never happens. The thing is with laissez-faire, that can be in some situations, a decent leadership or management style. But you have to know that you just do it right now for whatever reason. And controlling is not only to make sure people do the right things, it's also steering them and give them guidance and guardrails. Yes. And some people need a bit closer guardrails. They even require that. They even ask for that. Please help me. You cannot put them on an open field and say, be creative. They're totally lost. Some people don't like it and others—

Exactly.

You need to push them to the limit and say, open field, be creative.

Yes.

But the same person might require a different style the next day because the task is a different one. Because board of directors ask to be— give the number tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.

Exactly.

There is no discussion about the timeline. There is no discussion about—

No, there's no—

What kind of quality. It just needs to be done. And if I say, Markus, look, board of directors ask for it, please do it, do it now, do it properly, show it to me before you hand it over, you will understand, you will do it, you will even feel happy to do it. I'm pretty sure.

And you see, and you literally mentioned the most important requirement where most managers and leaders fail. It's

Communication. Yeah, because communication has so many different levels. And sometimes I hear we lack communication, we are poor in communication. That's always like top 3, at least with any project, with any, you know, in any organization. But what do you really mean with bad communication? Because it serves different purposes. It always has a root and it has an effect. And So communication is a whole new universe to discover. You can overcommunicate, you can communicate too less, you can— so that's a whole new— I'm not a communications expert, but that's a really— that's a huge topic in my eyes.

Make it very simple. Communication is a symptom. of a way deeper problem. And that's lack of clarity.

Lack of clarity, you think? Yeah. Okay.

Once you have clarity, you can easily communicate what it's all about.

So you think the clarity is to be established first on the sender side or on the receiver side?

Sender side. Absolutely.

Sender side. All right. I see. Okay.

Absolutely. So if you think about that, how many managers, and I just call them managers for a moment, how many managers really know what it's about? That's the one part, clarity, right? The second one is how many have clarity about what's required from their employees? How many have clarity what's going on in their employees when they receive a new task, for example? How many have clarity what happens with a human being who is being asked to do something they've never done or do it differently than they've done it all the time? I would say it's a very minor number.

Single digits.

So now we're going into an area which is quite murky waters. I always said that the majority of managers and leaders are not equipped to do either. They might be great business people. They might know about business. But where they absolutely lack is in people. Amazing people. Unless you understand human beings, unless you have studied what motivation really means, how it happens that somebody lacks drive, what it takes. And then if some people come to me and say, Markus, that's wishy-washy, that's voodoo, that's rah-rah, that's too soft for me.

Yeah.

That's why you fail. That's why you fail. Let's go back to your children for a moment. Imagine you were somebody who works and raises your children anti-authoritarian.

Right.

Where you say, a child should be able to develop in absolute free ways. What would happen? It would fail because society has its rules. And I learned from tough people who actually work in the correctional system in the US, who work with delinquent children.

All right.

Who say, Markus, because I had tough love for them, they changed. And they thanked me for the rules which they in the beginning hated, and they hated me for it. But after a short while, they realized, gosh, the problem why I ended up in this little prison camp here was because I had no rules, was because I had no guardrails.

Yes, no guardrails, no value system. It was just open and free. And, you know, my wife is a clinical psychologist.

I love that.

Yeah, that's a curse and a blessing, believe me.

Because I can tell the background in you. It makes sense.

So, and what clinical psychologists found out is that at a certain age, you really have to give the children all that freedom. You just described. And it's pretty much coming to like 5, 6, 7 years old. After that, they need very clear structure, very clear rules, the value system. If you apply that too early, that's also damaging. So don't do that with a 2-year-old. Absolutely. A 2-year-old should be— should do all the nonsense and has almost no rules. But at a certain point, you have to change that. And Go back to the discussion we had about the situational leadership management. It's quite similar. You have to raise your children not only with strict rules. Anyway, the mom has to provide unconditional love while the father provides conditional love. So he has to be more the one to give the guardrails and the rules and everything. So at a certain age, It's really important to provide those rules because they will be lost in society, don't know what to do, and even maybe end up in that prison you have just described.

Yeah. So now if you transfer it into grown-up situation and you assume that there is some truth to what I said, you take your 5-year-old child, put it into grown-up clothes, Make it grow very fast, and that is basically at least 50% of the workforce today. At least 50%. Yeah. You need to tell them what they do, which doesn't mean they will do it, by the way. You should hold them. Those are so-called Arbeitnehmer. I love it in German: Arbeitnehmer and Mitarbeiter, right? The Arbeitnehmer, they take. The work, but you have no guarantee that they're actually going to do anything with it. They just took the job.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting. Yeah.

And then you have Mitarbeiter, the ones who are cooperating.

Cooperating.

Yeah. They work with you, but there's no guarantee for anything either, especially not that they will think, because to think is the manager's job. And then you have the ones you're looking for. They probably 1 to 3% max. Those are the ones you can say, you know what, I need to go abroad. Please hold the, what's it called, hold the deck. I know that if I go away, the company will not go down because this person acts as if it was part of the company or the company was part of her or him, very rarely. But the majority is literally 5-year-old child grown up very fast, grown up close, and now you have to deal with it. So what not has happened in education at home should now take place in the grown-up world where everything is under pressure. And everyone should function because otherwise mayhem, right?

Mayhem. Yeah, it's a good word.

Now think about, so basically each manager and leader, let's call them just manager for a moment, should basically be taught in children's education. So they understand what's been missing in their workforce. So they can learn how to deal with grownups who have never learned what's expected from them now in order to make them a good workforce. So instead we say we have to find ways to motivate our employees. No bullshit. We've paid them.

Hmm.

We've already paid them. Now we have to show them purpose, pride in what they're doing, showing them the bigger picture. Because let's say your little boy, right? He has a task he hates. And you say, you know what? Let me show you why it's important to take care of this.

Yes.

Because if you take care of this, That's when this is possible. And he says, Dad, no question. Of course, I'm going to focus very strongly on it because I love it. I don't trick myself into loving it, but I see the purpose. So you see now why clarity is absolutely the key and the lack. Before purpose comes clarity.

Before purpose comes clarity. And do you think—

And you need clarity and purpose to communicate because otherwise it's just bullshit communicate.

Yeah, yeah. You need a reason why and you need the— why are we doing this? But clarity for me is, for one person it's absolutely clear and for many others, the same words, the same framing, the same way we communicate it is It's absolutely unclear on the receiver side. So there is no—

But whose job is it?

Universal. Oh, it's the sender's job.

Absolutely.

Sender's job.

And that's what many, many managers and leaders do not want to accept.

But I would also encourage the receiver to say, look, what you have just taught me, it's a bit unclear to me. Why should we do that? Why do we need to focus? Why is it a priority? So we have a feedback.

Right, but why don't they do that?

Oh, because they were taught that they should just receive an order and then fulfill it, even if it's unclear. It was taught, that's how I understood it, so I do it. But if we change that, because a technical—

That's enabling, right?

Technical, it's enabling. And the tech, of course, then that's again the managers' and the leaders' job, of course. But in a technical communication, You have a sender and receiver, and feedback actually comes from, you know, when you hold an electric guitar next to the, you know, the receiver, you know what that does? It does exactly that feedback. Yeah. We should always show that picture to people, give constant feedback so we can learn from each other that that communication was poor. We need to adjust. If we don't do that, and that's enabling, that's Those skill gaps you have to identify quite early and work with them. And that's also the job of the, of the leader. I think in future we should teach our children to become entrepreneurs as soon as possible because exchanging your valued time against money, that will come to an end. That's my strong belief. Time against money, that's how the whole economic system worked for decades. But that must come to an end in my belief. And when you work for a company, actually you do not provide results. You only provide your time. And then the company you work for is responsible to use that time as best as they can. So you exchange only your time for money. You have then the purpose, you really receive money, you have financial freedom. There you have some kind of a purpose. But that system where not outcomes are relevant, but inputs, and time is only an input. I give you my time. What you do with my time is then up to you. Yeah. Give me clarity, give me purpose, lead me, You know, give me tasks. I think that has to come to an end in all societies.

It is an interesting aspect. I'm curious how long it will take. Probably for a while.

For a while, probably. Yeah. When

I listened to you, I was thinking about what is a key characteristic that separates an employee From an entrepreneur, and I came down to one word: accountability. Accountability. Because when you take this word, which I coined as mitunternehmer, a co-entrepreneur who acts like it has shares in the company. There is accountability. And accountability instilled in a young child will remain there forever, whether that person is employed or whether that person becomes an entrepreneur. But accountability, I believe, is the biggest lack today. No accountability. I agree. No interest in clarity. Why would I?

Why would I? Yeah, I receive orders.

Let me tell you a story. It was probably now, time flies, 20-something years. I met someone and he was the chief of staff of one of the biggest police corps in Switzerland. Hmm. And he came to me and he said, Markus, we just received the numbers, the rating in terms of feedback. And we have detrimentally low trust and feedback from our employees throughout the entire core. It's a huge core, more than 100 people. And I said to him, do you know what? I just listened to my intuition and I said to him, please send me the date of birth of each of the person and show them to me in the oldest and the youngest. What I did not expect is that a third of those employees including managers, by the way, were Generation Y.

Interesting.

The ones who ask why should something be done? Why? So imagine his name was Andreas. And I said to Andreas, do you trust me? He said, okay, that sounds dangerous. I said, yeah, it can go really bad. He said, look, it is, it is your head. You are the guy who we hired for that job. It's like your interim management thing, right? And I went there as a, as a coach, as an expert for one session. So I knew I can't really use much. So imagine here's the police commander with his entire staff behind him, his entire management core. 35 people. And I started my session with the words, the question is not if you have to change. The question is when. And I could tell the commander's face went numb. He did not like what he heard.

Oh, wow.

Because I was there to help them with feedback. So who has a problem? The employee. And I started and I said, no, no, no, problem is you, you here as the management, 35 people. And immediately I went into details. So at the break time, He went to me and he said, sir, when I heard you start first, I realized you totally defied the order. And, you know, as a police commander, right? Mm-hmm. Super. And I said, yeah, because, you know, I understood if I do what you want me to do to teach you feedback, you will fail. And he said, yeah, I understand that now. Because the problem is not my feedback. The problem is me as the sender not understanding what I'm doing when I give feedback. I come here as the commander believing we are back in 20 years ago where it was commandieren, kontrollieren, right? All the case which we know so well from Swiss Army.

Oh yeah.

And he said, you taught us now. That we are dealing with people who appear so confident, which probably is the least confident generation ever, not daring to ask for feedback, not daring to ask if they don't understand because they feel like losers. So for us, it's not to command anymore. For us, it's to go to our employees and to ask, do you understand the order? What is it you need to fulfill the order and to be successful? Think about this guy from one moment to the next made the switch, Sam, that he understood.

The paradigm shifted entirely.

Entirely. And he invited me for another workshop.

Oh, okay.

Because I said this— no. And I told him the second time, I can teach you how to give feedback. But the first time, we needed this absolutely shocking paradigm shift for you guys to understand, unless we change, we can learn feedback as long as we want to. As I said, Communication. Yes, it's an absolute, um, it's all like a martial art form. But if you have clarity, if you have accountability, you can be the poorest communicator, you'll be successful. If you don't have clarity and if you don't have accountability, you can be the best communicator, you will fail.

Yeah, yeah, it's just show. Yeah, yeah, it's just a big show.

So one day understood. Witness me. It is us who have the problem as the sender. The time of the Cold War is over.

Over. Yeah.

Now it's about understanding we have to be participating with our employees. And imagine, I remember as it was yesterday, they were all sitting in this room. And they suddenly understood. Wow! This guy showing up here within five minutes, he has demobilized our entire belief system. Even if we believe we are the chiefs, even we believe we are commanding blah blah blah blah blah, we are dealing with people who will. not be able to function. So the question is not if, the question is when we change. And Sam, they decided immediately to change. How did they do that?

Were you involved in the further progress? What happened then?

You see what's so interesting? If you experience a paradigm shift like this, this is what people often ask me, how is it possible that you can show up once for 3 hours and there is lasting change. It's because if change really takes place on a structural level as a paradigm shift, you cannot go back. But most coaches do not dare to go there or do not know how to go there. So they go this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Of course. They give you instruments and methodologies, right?

Yeah, of course. I was hired quite a few times, and the most of the time it was the CEO who hired me said, you can talk about culture change, you can talk about mindset change, you can talk about all those change management things, all fine. I'm willing to even facilitate those changes, but don't you dare touching my structure.

And I said,

look,

that's the point.

Change culture, change. Even Peter Drucker, even he said like, um, culture eats strategy for breakfast. I tend to disagree because if you do not change the structure at the same time, you cannot address the culture because the culture is also embedded in a structural way. The way you think, you give orders. And they were smart enough. I was too young to realize that, but they were smart enough to say culture change, yes. Structure change, no. With that, they had their workshop, they paid some money, they could say, look, we did culture workshop and they knew exactly nothing. And no change happened. No change ever happened.

That's exactly it. Because you see, now we can literally close the circle in terms of management and leadership. Leadership is talking about culture. Let's build a new culture. No, it does not work. It does not work if the way how business is done does not change the structure. Right?

Exactly.

You can add culture as long as you want to.

And there you need the managers to change the structure with all the red tapes and the approval processes and waiting. I mean, I need decision today and not in 3 weeks, and I don't need 20 approval steps because the decision needs to be taken today. And if you do not change the structures, the processes, and that's when the manager comes in, cultural change will not happen. Definitely not.

So now you have the answer to the question, how was it possible that change took place so fast? And by the way, last thing, I stayed in touch with the police corps. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. I had several conversations with the commander after that. And the thing is, because I know leadership, I know culture, I dare to go there and say, guys, no, feedback, that's part of your culture. That's not your problem. This is literally an output of the actual problem, which is structure. And in structure is your main belief and your understanding about who you are.

It's manifesting. The culture is manifested in the structure and deep-rooted. And if you do not break that structure apart, the culture will stay the same. However many workshops ever you do and

Exactly. And remember how I started. The question is not if.

Oh, I'm sorry.

No problem.

That's the last beer. See, it's getting late here. Just a sec.

Soon dinner time for you, huh?

Yeah, almost. Yeah. It's not at home.

Oh, you're at

my office.

Oh, good. That's

perfect.

That's perfect. We haven't lost each other at all.

Well,

so remember how I started? The question is not if, the question is when you change. If I had left it as this, I would have lost them. But I said to them, let me give you the numbers. Let me give you the data. figures and numbers. I looked at your entire core. You have 30% at least who are Generation Y, born in 1978 or something later. And these are how they are, not how they behave, how they are. So I told them, you need to understand that the new workforce It cannot change. It cannot change. It's almost DNA fixed. Now it was their choice to say, this is bullshit. Even if he might be right, we are police commander plus his 35 people management.

We don't care about generations.

Or they could say, Hmm, we want to succeed. Let's listen.

Sounds great. Amazing story.

Let's listen.

Yeah.

But you see, and this is important for every manager and leader who listens today to our conversation, because when you say something like this, you need to follow up with data. That's the point. That's why I'm saying a leader who does not manage and manage who doesn't lead is basically a nuisance.

Yeah, absolutely. And a leader who cannot self-manage himself and it starts with self-management, you're completely lost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It starts with self-management. Yeah,

that's the worst. So you see exactly how I said it to you, could be possible. It started with one question. And the rest basically just led into the conversation.

Amazing flow. Yeah.

So I have one question before we say goodbye for today. If someone feels lost in that noise right now, which is not stillness, which is quite common for most people, what would you want them to remember When they are in that stress, when they're in that noise, what do you want them to remember? Like, like, what should they remind themselves of or not forget? Because that noise can be quite challenging, right?

And it's getting louder every day.

Exactly. Not everyone has your 2 kids to go to, right?

Yeah, I can, I can give them for a few days. Give me some relaxation and help them. Oh, but question, what should they remember?

What is still true even if they are in that noise?

Still true is that we together follow a bigger purpose. Remember that. And if your purpose is not aligned with our bigger purpose, We have to find a solution, but most of the time it's aligned. And when you have that purpose, try to reduce the noise, try to focus on what really matters, even if it's a boring task you have to do. See the bigger picture and always remember that your presence here, that can be in a remote session, that can be on site, your presence already counts. So even if today you're not very successful in whatever you do, only you being here helps the team, helps me, helps yourself, and serves the bigger purpose. And sometimes that can be a bit relaxing for them, take away a bit of stress and noise to know It's also good just to be here today. I think presence is something we start to lack more and more, to be in the moment, to be present.

That's exactly beautiful. It's presence. That's what it comes down to, isn't it? Not being present, but presence.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Not only be present. Yeah, yeah.

Presence. And I want to add something, borrowing your children. I believe that going to a place where children are either playground or basically just where children are,

just

sit down and watch them for a while.

Watch. Watch. Yeah.

And the stillness automatically shift something in you. Because what we see in children is present. So with that, amazing idea. Thank you so much for this fantastic conversation. I really enjoyed it.

Markus, thanks for having me. It was a pleasure. Wonderful. Thank you so much.

You're welcome. This was Remembering the Forgotten, a conversation held in clarity, not performance. If something in this exchange shifted how you see, let it stay with you. A few quiet pointers are waiting below.