Ep 36 Resonance Over Effort A Conversation with Sam Kukathas

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no personas, just what becomes audible when the noise drops and the mind is free to speak for itself. These conversations are not about delivering insight. They are about thinking together in real time, Testing ideas against stillness, letting 2 open minds stretch each other. The intention is simple: to create a space where clarity can emerge and where listeners don't just consume perspectives, but feel permission to engage their own thinking more honestly. Today, I'm joined by Sam Kukathas. Sam works at the intersection of philosophy, leadership, and embodied transformation. Hi, Markus. He understands vision from the inside and the limits of trying to create change through effort alone. This conversation isn't about performance or optimization as a strategy. It's about resonance as lived experience, about what happens when leadership no longer relies on pushing. and how clarity returns when the system is allowed to regulate and reorganize itself. With a background in philosophy, law, and leadership research, he brings uncommon precision to the invisible mechanics of change. This is a conversation about alignment over effort, presence over force, and leadership that emerges When the system remembers how to move. And with that, a heartfelt welcome to you, Sam.

Markus, thank you, brother. It is great to be here. Great to be basically in your living room is how I experience it.

It's wonderful to have you.

Thank you, man.

So before we begin,

yeah,

when I speak of coherence, I'm pointing to a state where nothing inside is in conflict.

Yeah.

Body, thoughts, emotions, and action aligned, moving as one. No push, no urgency, no fear driving the moment. And when I speak of stillness, I don't mean silence. I mean the part of you untouched by expectation or performance. The place that knows before the mind tries to manage it. That's the ground I'd like us to meet on today.

Perfect, mate. Love it. Let's do it.

So with that said, let's kick off the actual conversation.

I am ready.

Where can you just be yourself, untouched by expectation or

Sure. There are a few places. I think the first place is at home with my partner, Camille. Like literally yesterday, Sunday, and we're just being silly. Like I'm singing Les Mis because that's what I felt like doing at the time. And, you know, she'll be— That's amazing. Singing whatever she's singing. And it's just like the freedom to be completely as silly, as playful, as crazy as, as, as I would ever want to be. So I think that's the number one place where I can be myself is with her, because we can talk about anything from the possibilities to the challenge to everything under the sun. And it's all great. It's not gonna be a problem.

So it's amazing. So there are 2 components you mentioned. One of them is the confines of your home, of your house.

Yeah.

And the second one is your partner, Camille.

Yeah.

By the way, this is very rarely that I hear that, that somebody says with somebody else.

Yeah.

Usually it's when I go into the desert or when I go onto a mountain or when I'm in my car, but it's rarely with somebody.

Yeah.

So it's beautiful. So was that something that was always like that, even when you met Very initially, or is that something that grew?

I think it's been an evolution through time, um, you know, and it's like any kind of relationship. There have been times where it really was in resonance, and there were times where there were things we had to bring back into coherence, and then more in resonance. So I'd say right now we're in the deepest level of resonance that we've ever been in the 5 years or so that we've been, um, together, and That just creates a lot of space, a lot of alignment, and a lot more just being able to flow with things is how I would say. So I think there was always a sense of ease. Like I remember when we first moved in together and it was about six months in, and just like even the moving part wasn't stressful. You know, even even that you know these things people say oh these are one of the hardest things is to move house since like. No, this was effortless with you, you know. Um, and that, that's a really— it's a factor of how just easygoing she is as well. Like, my normal state is calm and default— is a— my normal default state is more calm, and her, you know, state as well is very easygoing as well. So together we are just this kind of force of calm.

So this is something interesting. You must be familiar that some people say, almost like a philosophy, opposites attract each other. And it's almost like a secret for a good marriage. Yeah. Personally, I do not believe so much in that opposites attract because it's almost like if you have someone who is quite similar to you, as Camille seems to be with you, compatible, it almost sounds like it's a compound interest on an emotional bank account. So how do you experience that? Because, you know, you must know couples as well who are polar opposites. One of them loves to go hiking, the other one loves to read a book. So what happens with the one if he can't hike anymore, breaking his leg?

Hmm.

They might have an issue then, right?

For sure. Like, I'd say, like, even though there's, there's a lot that we share, there's also a lot where we're quite different, right? So, like, Camille's background, like, she works in marketing, and it's much more based around, um, the practicalities of science, uh, medicine. So there can be, um, different points of view, let's just say, about how we understand, like, health and medicine, how we understand that whole realm of the human experience, because hers is grounded in a different kind of way of thinking than I am. Now, there's also more and more sense of moving into alignment even there, but that is one place where she can challenge me around how, you know, I will be, you know, seeing something and she'll tell me whether she thinks this is unaligned or this is agree, or— and sometimes I'm going to like that, sometimes I'm not. And that's part of the partnership, is to be able to, to, to be with all of it. Um, but there are also other aspects where we just, we just are in sync, and that synchronicity gets to grow the more I allow it. And, you know, one thing which feels pertinent to share right now is I was in this conference on coherence, actually. Uh, conference, probably the wrong word, more like an immersion. I was part of like bringing more coherence to this group of like 50 leaders in Austin. And at the end, there was this thing called a Camino. And basically like you'd walk side by side with a partner and you'd be talking about who are you becoming. And the person doesn't interrupt. You're just speaking. You're looking out to the distance and you speak for like 11 minutes and then they speak for 11 minutes. And one of the things that I shared was about the— what was I was experiencing with Camille. And I was saying I was witnessing the divine in her. Fast forward a day, and I'm in an experience which has, uh, fractal films, taking something called a Trinity tincture, which basically brings this sense of like being in temple to you. Uh, and I'm looking at these films and I'm seeing Camille, you know, not like physically she's there, but like I felt her presence and I was feeling her divinity. As soon as I saw her in Australia, where I've just been, that was the first thing I noticed is her presence, is just the level of divinity which was in her. And simple things would start to show itself. Like when she'd get into an Uber, she'd be like, thank you so much for picking us up. Now my mind is like, well, we paid for the Uber, so like that's kind of like the role that they have. But for her, there was this real level of gratitude which was present. So I was like, oh, this is part of her divinity. So there's been this shift in me into witnessing her in this deeper level. And as I witness her on a deeper level, I feel witnessed by her on a deeper level, and then it continues to ripple.

That's beautiful. That's so interesting what you just shared about the Uber ride. So for you, it is, I paid, it's that person's job to come and pick me up. And mostly this person should not even Voice themselves at all.

Why would you say that? No, that would be taking it too far.

No, I'm just joking.

That would be crazy, right?

Like, that's fucking you.

My experience of an Uber ride varies dramatically. There are some places, like when I was in Austin, I was having chats with them because there was a resonance. In London, probably don't have many chats, but in Australia, it seems much more common to have conversations. So you actually start to get to know people. And I really enjoyed that. And Camille's really good at asking questions and creating that space, whether it's in an Uber or just with a bunch of strangers. So that just naturally started to happen. But I also then noticed for myself that when I was in Australia, I would also allow myself to be myself. So there was one particular occasion which I remember, which was essentially I was in an Uber drive, a short one, and the guy just asked some questions. And I think one was like, what was a lucky number or something like this? But I don't know if I remember first, there was something about what do I do? And, you know, people ask all the time, what do you do? And you can try and like give them some version, or you could just try and just like be yourself. And so often I will give some version, you know, because it's like, are they going to understand? Like, how do I con— you know, convey that I work with sound frequency. But I was like, no, okay, I work with sound frequency. I do this, I clear distortion in people's field. And then suddenly we're in this conversation about sound frequency. The guy had gone through, you know, cancer. He'd overcome it. I started to talk to him about how the work that we would do with sound frequency is starting to have an impact on people with serious health challenges. And he was like, wow, that's fascinating. So we just created this resonant bond within the short period of time, maybe 10, 15 minutes, to the point where by the end of it, I was like, you know, ready to have Ian's number and like be in a conversation with, you know, what was possible, right? Because, uh, but I do think Camille probably played a role because I was already prepped, you know, primed for that conversation, having spent, you know, a few weeks in Australia in Ubers and then, uh, allowing that to kind of transform.

So this is a very fascinating topic. It's conversation. So coherence shows up in literally every realm of life, even in a mundane conversation like in an Uber. Yeah. So now I'm curious, Sam, if you walked into the same Uber and you were business-minded, how would you answer the question, What do you do? And how do you answer the question, what do you do if you're in coherence, if you're just yourself?

Sure. Let me see. It's a challenging question. Like, I think if I'm in business moment mind, I'm like, why am I in business moment in, uh, in the car? Like, why do I need to be in that space anyway? Would be my question. myself, um, rather than just sharing whatever's on my mind at that particular moment in time. Like, I think I could give 1,000 different versions of who I am as an expression based on the moment of time that it's being expressed, rather than there being some like cookie-cutter answer as to what it is that I, I am or do or be, uh, which is an expression.

That's what I mean. That is exactly what I mean. You know, I help So that blah, blah, blah. Do you usually use that not at all or extremely rarely? And have you grown into saying what you really do?

Oh, it varies entirely. Like there have been times where I've used the, I guide people to unlock the limitless potential to transform humanity. That was sort of like a common way of looking at things from like late 2023 to 2024 onwards. Now I kind of like people talk about like freedom activator, you know, sometimes. So then sometimes that gets like a way of positioning, you know, myself. But I don't think of myself as a title. Like my friend Stephen Young is almost like he's a Stephen, I'm a Stephen, I'm a Sam. And it's like, I don't know if I necessarily go that far, but there's an aspect to it which I kind of relate to. But there's a dynamic nature to who we all are, right? So like as we keep remembering more about like who we are, whatever's being figured forgotten, dormant, gets activated within ourselves, the expression of who I am alters from that space. Like, I wouldn't have expressed myself in the way I'm expressing myself here when I was an academic. That, that's not how I saw myself. It would have been a very different kind of energy, uh, a lot less resonance potentially. Um, and I couldn't even imagine having a conversation like this when I was in that space of thinking in the world. In the space. Very linear terms.

Yeah, makes sense. Would probably have been quite an unease conversation back then, right?

Probably.

Probably even our first conversation would have gone a little bit differently.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I'd be like, oh, where's this guy going? Or I don't know. Like, I think I've always had a lot of curiosity though, Markus. So like the simplest thing I could say about me is I'm infinitely curious. The job title changes over time, but the curiosity doesn't. It just gets deeper and deeper. I've been playing over the last weekend with Manus AI. Have you ever used Manus?

No.

Oh my God, man. It's just been acquired by Meta for quite a lot of money.

Okay.

But don't hold that against them. You can build so quickly. So rather than being like, I put a prompt into ChatGPT and then it provides some ideas of how you might you know, utilize that prompt, it's building with you and you can see it's working out. You can see it's coding. Interesting. You can see everything as it's going. And so I've just been in this curiosity mode. So I was like, all right, let me— what if I created a virtual board of advisors? My friend Johan Nagorio, who I think you might know, Johan, at some point, right? He was talking about the idea of that. I was like, oh, let me try that. Like, I got back on the plane to have quite a lot of time on a plane from Australia to London. So let me start to build that process. So I started to build the process of building this board of advisors. And I was like, whoa, this is so cool. Like seeing like how, what's the strategy and what is the approach that they might take? And then I'd be like, wait, that's not resonant. I want to tell you about this piece so they can get, oh, okay, great. We're going to reframe all of that. Oh, we didn't, we misunderstood what you meant. Oh, thank you. Like it'll literally correct with self-correct with you. And then it will build new documentation, build new websites with you. Like it's dynamically, right? It's like in a conversation where we're constantly—

It's really immersive.

Yeah,

that's incredible. I'd love to have a link to that.

Okay, I can send you the link. Yeah,

because that is amazing. It saves a lot of time, right?

It saves a lot of time. Yeah, yeah, we like— it did an assessment of all of my team's marketing and I was like, all right, I got on a call today and I was like, so guys, here's what's working, here's what's not, here's where we're going forward in 2026. And I was like, I was like, wow, that was fun.

Gosh, I love that. And you know, you said something interesting about your curiosity.

Yeah.

Isn't that an underlying characteristic or quality of almost every scientist going into science?

For sure, man. Yeah.

Is it possible that if one immerses too much into academics, that this curiosity might almost get a little bit damped, a little bit dimmed?

Yeah, well, I think you could, you could go down the rabbit hole so far that you never stop. So one of the things that happened for me is I would like— I was writing about the human condition through the lens of this 18th century Scotsman David Hume. Okay. And I would like, you know, if you imagine what this text, the Treatise of Human Nature, would look like when I'm underlining, circling, writing notes in it, Like it's a very weathered piece of work, but then I've gone deeper is I've then taken all of the keywords which are utilized within this text, and I've looked at every usage of it in a database on davidhume.org to understand the lineage of those terms and then to understand what might he have been thinking at that time to, uh, see what that language meant. Then I've looked at the etymology of those words. to understand if those words had a different resonance, then I've imagined what would it look like if he was actually talking about the origins of human societies, what it would look like in those time periods for that to actually be so, even though he didn't live in those times. So I would go deep, deep, deep, deep into the imagination of what it could be, and then I'd build a picture of what it might be and what it might look like, whether it was like Roman times, medieval times, you know, times of, um, Julius Agricola, whatever it was. Like, I would, I would just imagine the world and I'd start to create the world, and then I would test out the logic of it within the arguments that were being constructed. That's, that's what I used to do.

And by then you did not have Manus yet, right?

They didn't have Manus.

It was all here. Yeah. Isn't that incredible? That just proves how powerful our mind is if it's used properly.

Oh, for sure.

Right.

Yeah.

So you mentioned coherence quite a few times. Can you please explain to me your understanding of coherence?

Yeah. Yeah. Like it's something which has evolved a lot of late. And what I see is it's like, do you know the Sesame Street sketch about here and there? It's really this, right? It's closing the gap between there is a there to get to versus the here where you are. So it's the anchoring of here and there simultaneously and embodying that state within yourselves so that you operate and act, as you said at the very beginning, from a space of coherence where you are cohere. Yeah. Because you cannot be anywhere other than here. But the illusion that we have often lived into, myself included at times, is that there is somewhere there to get to. And when we get to there, then everything else that we want is, is available, right? Rather than— so it's like the happiness trip. You know, it's like, oh, I want to get there, then I'll be happy. No, no, no, no, no. Like, there's only there, there's only now. So from only now, let's just experience all of it, collapse the timelines, and get to experience what it feels like to have that coherence in the body. And then what tends to show up is like what you actually wanted in material reality, if it's aligned, just shows itself from that space.

It is here already. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. You know, some people say that they're like 2 different worlds. So one of them is the parallel world, which is kind of the future.

Yeah.

And then it's the presence. However, I personally become to believe that the future is actually a parallel presence. All I need to do is I have to call it into reality now.

Totally.

There's nothing to create in the future. So how do you personally see that?

Yeah, like, I'd create from now, right? And if I create from now, The future comes here because, you know, the, the— what is it— the unified field, as someone described to me, is a dynamic field. So where it's not like it's a static field, which is here's the unified field of consciousness out here and we just have to figure out where to get to. No, that's another confusion. It's like, no, it's dynamically altering as you alter. So then you get to not manipulate, but you get to mold the, that energetic field, the unified field, so that what you're wanting to bring forth comes forth. If it's aligned, I always say if it's aligned, because if it's not aligned, it's either going to come forth and then it's going to show you something which you didn't want, or it's going to not come forth at all.

And you know what's beautiful? I sometimes wonder whether that dynamic field you just mentioned, or the field itself— let's speak about the field for a moment— yeah,

yeah,

that it actually only does what is coherent. I personally feel that I cannot produce anything that is not coherent with the field. It just simply refuses. So I don't even think right now I could be self-destructing or I could create something that isn't aligned.

Yeah.

Do you experience that similarly?

Nowadays I'd say yeah, but there's subtle nuances, right? Of, for instance, like Is it that I was going to have a conversation, but I'm hesitating at whether that person wants to hear from me? So that would be an example of whether there might not be the unifiedness within the cells to clear the idea of hesitation. Because if hesitation wasn't there within the body, then there would already be the knowing of how to act, right?

Mm-hmm.

So that would be an example for me of where sometimes old patterns could come and say, oh, Do they want to hear from me? Maybe not. Pause. Right. So the more I come into a space of coherence, the more the hesitation drops away. And there's just immediacy because there's such a level of trust in that moment that, you know, they'll do whatever they'll do. They'll be however they'll be. But I'm clear on what I'm up to, how I'm going to be and how I'm going to operate.

So it's interesting. So if I paraphrase what you just told is that you're basically sitting there and you have an inclination to reach out to Johan, for example.

Yeah.

And then a little voice kicks in and says, are you sure?

Yeah.

Like, what if he's not ready to receive my call? What if he's not in favor of me right now? So what would you think it is that actually kicks in in that moment?

Well, I think it's a few things. I think there's a memory pattern of And then there's the cellular pattern. So there's the emotional state of times where, when you had that interaction, it was not received well. So then there's a, that creates more hesitation. But then further back, there's just kind of an, almost like an imprint within the cells of like, where was hesitation? So like, if I use my own example, when I was a doctoral student, when I was an MPhil student, I would constantly be questioning. whether or not what I created was good enough. So as a consequence of that, I would keep creating more and more and more and more without like handing in that piece, because what if it's not, right? Yeah. So that judgment, but then that patterning over time then can have its own knock-on effect in other areas where it's, you're not being as decisive as you could be in those moments because you're still holding onto some inkling of this Way of caution, right?

But that seeps into any different areas of your life.

Totally. But then I'd say if I go further back, for me, like, I think as a kid I was quite hesitant and cautious in lots of situations, whether it was like, you know, telling a girl at school like I liked them or whatever. Like,

I

remember like waiting 6 years to tell someone that I liked them. By that time they'd moved very far on, right? Because I was so concerned about like how they would react. So there are, there are these different parts of ourselves. And I, I think of coherence back in this, to go back to this in a way, it's like coherence is— there are parts of us which are fully in coherence, and there are parts of us which may still hold on to some level of distortion. And it might not be ours. Like, often the distortion is like, oh, it's your mum's, or it's your mum's mum, or it's your mum's mum's 10th generation beyond that, which you're not even sure about. Or it's like, it's actually not even this lifetime from— it's like not only ancestral, it's, it's, it's a lifetime where, you know, like the voices that come through me, and I'm not saying like hallucinogenic, like as in when I tone, uh, sound like tribal Indian. You're an interesting scientist. Māori. I had to kind of paraphrase that as a consequence, but like Māori, uh, Australian Aboriginal, uh, you know, so many different, you know, sounds, which if I traced back the immediate what I know about my family, I don't see anyone who necessarily fits all of those, uh, those vo— those molds or voices.

Mm-hmm.

So as a consequence, there can be, without our knowing, something within the cellular structure of the DNA which is showing itself. And then it shows itself in this lifetime. You know, the Kabbalah might say, well, that was just some karma that was meant to come through and You experience it as a consequence of maybe there's something to see, and when you learn the lesson, then it resolves, and then you move into the next kind of iteration of self, into the remembrance, if you like. So that's a lot of stuff, but that's kind of like what's kind of flowing through me to share with you in this moment about it all.

It's very interesting. So here's an aspect I would like to look at.

Yeah,

if I translate again what you just said

Yeah, yeah.

We are basically all wired together in a kind of a nervous system, in a global nervous system. So we are picking up on each other's nervous actions or reactions. Is it possible for you to imagine that we actually could almost like leave that universal nervous system power grid and build our own and still be connected with the global one. So that actually not so much influence at all. If I look at where I'm living now,

Yeah.

I could be picking up on everybody's nervous system right now. But I don't at all.

Oh, for sure. No, that'd be horrendous.

And what would you say? So many people actually suffer from that.

Yeah, I get scared.

Yes, right. Especially highly spiritual people.

Yeah,

it's almost like they're inviting that.

Well, yeah, like some of it, it's like as a consequence of not being seen and heard when they were very young, some of them have taken on a perspective where they looked out into the world and they took on the world's problems as their own. So then they had something to like to be focused on. I remember working with someone literally in a session was like a group session, and it was the heaviest session I've ever done. You know, and I've and I've worked with people around abuse, and it was like this was like that was like a cakewalk. And I'm not trying to say that to be like facetious. It was just like literally this was like the room cleared, like half the people left because it was so dense because they they felt the energy of the entire world, and suddenly that was their channeling through me. as we were moving through all these spaces. So I know exactly what you're talking about, the level of density when you are hooked in to everything, and then the reactive nature that you're coming from as a consequence of being in, in that space. And, um, I know for myself also when my— what I call electrical system— my friends, this again, Stephen Young, he's influenced me in all sorts of ways, but like he'll say, like, if we use the word nervous, we're kind of reinforcing a spell That the way to understand this, this body, the system, is that it has to be a nervousness for the system to, you know, to function or what have you. So I'm like, okay, well, that's interesting. Let me play with this idea. And I like the idea of just your energetic system or your electrical system because one is like, we're like a battery anyway, right? Like, but there's so much electricity which fires through us. Like, even just the energy of watching my voice right now. There's like all the different circuits are firing in a way which is allowing for this to happen. And I don't have to know that from a scientific or an engineering standpoint. I can just feel what that feels like. Right. And I've talked to neurologists to be like, oh yeah, like you just turn on the circuits in people's brain. Like, oh, okay, cool. Like that's a nice way of describing it. So I don't have to know what it looks like. I just have to sense that. And that's enough for me to be like, okay, that's, that's what I'm going with now. Completely lost my train of thought, Markus. So I'm going to let you jump in about anything.

No, it's amazing. It actually leads to a beautiful point. You work with sound and you're actually leading beautifully to it because I was wondering when I listened to you what actually happens when Sam chants. You know, I use my own word for it.

Yeah, yeah.

Translating again what I just heard.

Yeah.

Isn't it that you actually access the original design of somebody? You're not. I love that. So your chanting basically creates a safe space where stillness is able to manifest itself by keeping out all the noise, all the distortion. And all you actually do is— because, you know, we are working so similarly, I just understand. You do it through voice, through sound.

Yeah.

And I do it through frequency and reference. But in the end, what we're doing is we are creating a safe space for someone to actually access their own original design.

For sure.

And we're removing all the distortion pieces.

Totally.

So if you think about if somebody suffered from abuse.

Yeah.

And I'm using what Steve doesn't like, that our nervous system, like, particularly is so under attack constantly.

For sure.

By what's coming from outside.

Yeah.

And inside.

Yep.

And then basically when stillness arrives, which is the coherence between mind and heart, which then opens a portal to their original design, which just for the viewers or the listeners to understand is nothing mystical. It is nothing that is out in the world. It's literally science. It is physics. So when we are born, do you believe that we are born Knowing who we are?

It's a very interesting question. Hmm. I don't know exactly how I want to characterize this. My first answer is no.

Interesting.

Because I don't think we're in a space of knowing. I think we're in the space of just being. We're in the space of just interacting with the world. There isn't a self to know at this stage from what I kind of am aware of. Um, so if that's the case—

But let me add something to that.

Yeah,

I love the knowing and the being part. So here is how I personally came to understand it.

Yeah, yeah.

Everyone is born with a set of seeds, and the seeds basically characterize our potential. So the seed is here to be nurtured. Yeah. If it's getting nurtured at a very young age,

if

you're very fortunate, then the seed is going to sprout and then it's going to grow. Even if at the age of 4 to 7, the adaption starts kicking in where the system from the outside becomes so strong that we are actually starting to question ourselves and adapting to the outer system. It cannot die. So this is what I realized. You know where I'm going is when people get to the point where they ask, is this as good as it gets? Or is there more to my life? I believe that's when that seed actually starts talking.

Mm-hmm.

Where it says, you know what? This cannot be it. This is not how it was intended initially. So do you agree that there is something like we are born with a whole set of who we are unknowingly, but it's there?

Yeah, like I think in a very simple way, for sure. Like I think we are born with a whole bunch of stuff to uncover, and the question is whether we will uncover as much as we might hope. In the time that we have available, or the time that's you know designated to us, or that we choose to designate to this this destination, right? Because I think of us as choosing to be here, all eight billion, so however many numbers there are of people in the world, all choosing to be here, souls choosing to be here, and then as a consequence, we could also choose to leave because we no longer feel resonant with the journey. So we could choose. Nope. And it could show itself in all sorts of ways. It could show itself in terms of illness. It could show itself in terms of voluntarily opting out, you know. Um, and not to say that, you know, that's a great way of doing it, but that, you know, there are people where that could be— just doesn't feel like aligned, you know. And so from, from that standpoint, that's, that's the choice that they would, they would make. And that's something that I've, I've thought about, you know, not for myself nowadays, but, uh, for others, you know, what that looks like and why To come from a space of non-judgment when those do choose, if that was the case, if it got to a point where the experience of life was just so much that just they couldn't see a reason to continue being here.

I should say, I had a thought which is quite challenging to voice in the presence of a scientist like you. I personally believe Life is so simple that even a child can understand it. And it takes us grownups to make it so complex that no one gets it anymore. Do you agree with that?

Oh, totally, man. Like, I think one of the things, and I think this is where plants can be interesting when you partner with plants, is that they'll, they'll bring you into the simplicity so quickly. Um, all of the noise gets distilled. Like, I remember one particular moment where Um, my friend was saying, well, that's a lot of money. And I said, no, that's money. And you added the a lot, right? And then we'd go into like this, this conversation. It was a conversation about what it would look like to transform humanity. Because, you know, if we're going to do a plant, like we're not, you know, sorry, not do a plant, be with a plant. We want to experience it in a way which is a co-creation of what's going to be most impactful, not just like go in a forest and take a plant and just experience what's going to come through. Like, That was the context in which I created with this my mate. So, but that was an example of the distillation. A similar like in Austin when I was through this Trinity tincture, I would be like, oh, you know, we're running it. The people like, oh, we've run out of clean water. So there's all the this optimized water. Okay, cool. And I'm like, well, what if it was just water and then we added whether it was clean or unclean? Right? In the same way, like, you know, is it Emoto? The one where you like you put the intention into the water and that shifts what the water tastes like and etc. experiences, it was moldy. So I was like, well, what if that would be the same with actually the way we characterize water? Like, could we shift the frequency of clean versus unclean water just by characterizing in a different way? So I, I'm with you in that the simplicity is there to behold once we allow all of the noise and back into presence to, to come through.

I believe that's exactly what you said. If we remove the noise and the stillness comes into the presence or becomes the presence, that's when simplicity is enough. Because this is something I hear quite often. People say to me, but Markus, this is a little bit too simple.

Yeah.

I said, yeah, I don't think so. I think that's actually how life is intended to be. A child should understand it when we talk, because otherwise we're pretty much a little bit off. So Sam, you are Most of the time in coherence and in stillness.

Sure.

Is there anything that can pull you away from yourself still? And what helps you then to come back? Because I'm sure this is something many of the viewers and listeners experience.

Yeah. Like, I think if I'm in a, like, I'll think of it as an example in Australia, like where I was at a party, people I don't know, at all, but it's also not a crowd of people where there was any kind of resonance. You know, I think one person, he worked on buses or the bus schedule or traffic lights or something like that. And I could try to engage and be curious about that. But as soon as I mentioned anything about, you know, whether I was like, what do you do? Like, talk about sound. You could tell straight away it was like a lead balloon. And it's just like, this isn't a space that I want to be, right? Mm-hmm. So we opted out of being there very quickly after that. But that's a place where it's like, this doesn't feel coherent. But for me, that's just a signal that go where the resonance is. It's not that you have to avoid people because, like, oh God, there's no coherence here or whatever. It's just like, no, no, like, time is precious. Choose it in a way which is intentional. Where do I want to spend time in a space of resonance? You know, when you invited me to be here, it's like, yeah, it'd be great to be with you. Right. And so it's an instant yes to come and have a conversation with you. The fact that we're recording is just, you know, a byproduct of the fact that This is what the format is, but it's not a— it's just like—

Exactly. This is pretty much a conversation we would have otherwise, right? If we just meet for a one-to-one, that's no—

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's— I wouldn't say it's distinct from how we communicate when we've, when we've caught up on Zoom or we first met. Like, it's always been this kind of buzzy kind of energy, this playful nature. Yeah.

Right. Because it was fascinating, you just mentioned coherence. And then you mentioned resonance.

Yeah.

So resonance is almost a prerequisite for coherence.

100%. I, I, that's what, that's what I do.

Beautiful. That's beautiful. And what helps you to come back is literally to remove yourself.

Sometimes, sometimes that's the, that's the simplest way. If, if the other way is a little tricky way, but it's like if I'm with you know, say family, and they're an open family who's open, and there is a disresonance between us, I can invite them to come back into coherence with me through an experience, right? So I, I did that a little bit as well in Australia, and that made my time much more resonant if I was feeling like, you know, dynamics with family that could sometimes be there. And it's like you're pushed into old ways of operating and, you know, patterns of action. Yeah. You know, they always say like You think you're enlightened, go spend 2 weeks with your family. And, you know, it's always fascinating to me, like, how long people tell you, like, I could only be with my, my mom for 2 days, or I could be with my parent, my dad, for 5 minutes, or, you know, I can't be with them at all. And it's like, they're all great people, but they're somehow— the relationships that they have. So,

yeah,

you know, I'm lucky I have great— I have a great family. Um, and there can be moments where I'm not operating from resonance like any other human being can operate from a lack of pure resonance.

And even then you can remove yourself and, you know, excuse yourself for a moment. So this is what I do. Even if I have a great bunch of people, I still excuse myself because, you know, it's needed.

Yeah, you know, like one of the— so I want to share a little bit of something of a vision I've got, and it's the idea of relational coherence. So what I've been imagining, and I don't know if you know Patrick Cowden, like the one who's created Warm Space. I feel like you'd really get on with Patrick. So you guys should definitely chat because it's all about—

Yeah, I'd love to have some introductions of yours anyway. Yeah,

yeah, for sure. Remind me to send you guys a message. Yeah, you guys will love each other. But, you know, he's created a platform which is around Basically creating flow and connection, human connection within minutes, right? And then I obviously work around creating flow and connection within minutes through sound. So with different mediums to create similar effect. And what we were kind of co-creating and imagining is a future where you could create that within the harmonics of a situation where there is incoherence in the moment. So let's say there's a tension or a fight with your loved one. partner. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

What if there's a way to bring coherence to that dynamic straight away? You know, often the way we do it is we, we take ourselves, uh, for a walk. Very beautiful. That can be a great way to calm ourselves down rather than speak from anger. But I'm like, what if there was another way as well beyond that, which could really deepen our ability to create soul remembrance between both of us and come into deeper levels of alignment? You know, the same way, like with Camille, it's like we confront challenging conversations head on. And every time we do that, what emerges from that is so beautiful, right? There's such a level of resonance that will emerge from that space. So this is just a way of imagining what that could look like with sound as the medium.

I'd love to learn more about that.

That sounds very fascinating. Yeah.

Yeah, that sounds very fascinating. So, Sam, If someone feels overwhelmed right now, what would you want them to return to?

Overwhelmed with what? Sorry?

Overwhelmed right now.

Overwhelmed right now.

With life, with business, whatever.

What would I want them to return to? Well, I don't want anything for them. I want what they want, right? I want for them to come back to seeing that ease is the catalyst for flow. So wherever ease is missing, I want them to come back to that, that blueprint of ease within their body so that everything else can just flow naturally from there.

Beautiful answer, Sam. With that, thank you so much for having been my guest.

Thanks, brother. It's been awesome.

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