Ep 40 The Me Bubble Dissolves A Conversation with Achim Klor

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no personas, just what becomes audible when the noise drops and the mind is free to speak for itself. These conversations are not about delivering insight. They are about thinking in real time together. Testing ideas against stillness, letting 2 open minds stretch each other. The intention is simple: to create a space where clarity can emerge and where listeners don't just consume perspectives but feel permission to engage their own thinking more honestly. Today I'm joined by Achim Kloor. Hakeem works at the intersection of go-to-market strategy, clarity, and pressure. Not a theory, but at the exact moment when tech companies realize that more activity isn't producing better outcomes, only more noise. This conversation, however, isn't about marketing tactics or growth hacks or chasing the next trend in the hope that it finally sticks. It's about clarity, how organizations lose it as they scale, and what happens when insight is restored as the primary operating principle instead of guesswork, urgency, or borrowed playbooks. And what matters here isn't experience or execution frameworks. It's restraint. The refusal to pretend clarity can be rushed. At the moment when companies stop performing growth and start understanding their buyers well enough that growth becomes a consequence, not a goal. And with that, welcome Akin to the show.

Thank you, Marc. It's nice to be here and good to see you again.

Likewise. So before we begin, When I speak of coherence, I'm pointing to a state where nothing inside is in conflict. Body, thoughts, emotions, and action aligned, moving as one. No push, no urgency, no fear driving the moment. And when I speak of stillness, I don't mean silence. I mean the part of you untouched by expectation, or performance. The place that knows before the mind tries to manage it. That's the ground I'd like us to meet on today. So with that said, Hakim, give me a quick sec here. Just so anybody understands, this is live recorded. Where can you just be yourself, untouched by expectation or performance?

Wow, that's a great question. Honestly, the best moments where I can be myself, there's a couple of places. One is when I'm on a hike. There's lots of great mountains around here in Vancouver, especially on the North Shore. Lots of my favorite hikes are quite rigorous and quite challenging. They're not just flat. Obviously, with mountains, you've got a lot of up and down. That is definitely one where I can be pretty much alone with nature and just do my thing and reflect and think. And sometimes I hike with friends and family and sometimes I don't. So it just gives me a chance to decompress. So it's probably the best way to do that. The other 2 I would say is I play hockey still, even at 61, almost 61.

That's amazing.

And I'm a goalie. So the thing about being a goalie is you see the game from a completely different lens and from a completely different strategy. So what I like to do when I'm on the ice is think about, you know, the play and the anticipation of what's coming, which is different than if, say, if you're playing out as a forward or as a defenseman. The other part is when I'm behind my drum kit because I play music as well in a couple of bands. And again, it's— I lock— it's a conscious lock with the bass player to maintain the rhythm section of the band because that's the heartbeat of what you're giving to the audience. And so those are 3 places where where I can really be myself, yet also think differently about what's happening in that moment. And I think that gives me the perspective of why I believe so strongly in the insight piece of what I do for— for what I do professionally.

You mentioned something really interesting. So I don't voice that yet. So I'm curious for you to think What do these 3 situations have in common? What would you say?

That's a great question. Uh, the— I would say, um, uh, from a— from the music side, and, uh, and I, I don't just play drums, I play guitar and other things, and I also write my own music, but, but when I'm playing live, I typically, um, play in the rhythm section. But the, uh, the correlation between, say, the 3 things, uh, I would say is the, the, the, the solitude of the position, uh, on a hike. A lot of times I'm hiking, even with— I'm— if I'm hiking with friends and family, um, there's a lot— there are many moments where you're really hiking by yourself, uh, and then you meet up and you talk, and then— but, and then of course when you're hiking by yourself, you're, you're just really in your own thoughts. As a goalie, you are isolated on— like, as a goaltender, you are isolated. You have a completely different role than the other people on the ice. Likewise, in a band, as a drummer, you are also isolated, and you're behind your percussion instruments. And so there is a— it's almost like the backbone of of the band, backbone of your hockey team, and, um, in some respects maybe the backbone of your own little hike that you're, you know, that you do. That might be a bit of a stretch, but, um, and I think, uh, professionally as well, when it comes to marketing, uh, it is the backbone of the business. It's— it is the business from the customer's, um, perspective. Um, and Peter Drucker said that. I didn't make this up. This is something that Peter Drucker said years and years ago. And I agree with that because there are similarities between what marketers do and have to do in the background in isolation to maintain the heartbeat of the company. And that's interestingly, that's what also gravitated me towards, you know, playing the drums for the bands and also playing the position in hockey as a goalie. So there are some Overlap for sure.

That's really interesting. So you even make the connection to what you do as work, which is marketing. So you mentioned the backbone, you mentioned kind of solitude. How much does play into it being in the moment?

Those are all 3 of those activities, even professionally, is all about being in the moment, the anticipation of what's coming, the planning ahead. However, it's also living in the reality of what is today. And that's where I think Some company professionally, that's where I think companies maybe miss the mark. And it's something that I actually had a chat with a colleague of mine, Mark Stuse, the other day on one of our LinkedIn Live episodes. And that is the reality of what's happening, especially in the world today, is different than it was, say, 5, 10 years ago, even a year ago for that matter, right?

I agree.

Yeah. And one of the things that Mark said, which was very, very provocative and very insightful, was people mix up reality with truth and fact, and they're not the same thing. Sometimes they can be, and sometimes they can overlap. But for instance, my truth and your truth are— could be completely different, even though we're living in the same reality. Mm-hmm. And even our facts, the facts that we, that we collect could be different even though we're living in the same reality. And I used to work for GE and Jack Welch used to say this, and that is you need to face reality as it is today, not as you wish it to be and not as you hope it was or hope it— not, sorry, not as— sorry, I screwed that up. It's face reality as it is today, not as it once was or as you wish it to be. Mm-hmm. You have to face it as it is today. And that's where I think that isolation of being in the moment gives you the advantage of how to deal with what's happening today. Yes, plan for tomorrow, learn from the past, but you need to live today.

Let me ask you something almost provocative. I assume your life doesn't consist of hiking, playing music, or sports, correct? What prevents you from living in that moment in the reality other times? Why do we have to revert to something which is almost like outside the normal day?

It's a great question. Uh, the— there's always going to be this, you know, personal struggle of dealing with, um, you know, our shortcomings and, um, and everything. The, the one thing that keeps me hopeful about, about what you're— about the question you're asking is Something that that the very famous Canadian astronaut Colonel Chris Hadfield said once. He's he was up at the ISS a few times, and one of the things that he noticed when he was up there and when he came back a few times and talking to folks, and this is I still remember this: he said everyone struggles. Doesn't matter who you are. Doesn't matter how rich you are. Doesn't matter the color of your skin, the God that you pray to, the the food that you eat, the clothes that you wear, everyone struggles. And knowing that when I'm in that moment of like, you know, it's working here, it's working there, but it's not working this time, that's my struggle. And I know that I'm not the only one struggling. And there's a— it gives you a perspective on empathy as well because When you consciously know that you're not the only one struggling, you're a little more empathetic about the people that are around you, whether they're family, whether they're friends, whether it's coworkers, whether it's your neighbor. It doesn't really matter because you know that the person that you're speaking with has their own struggles and they could be just as just as crazy as your own or worse, right? Or less, right? But it doesn't matter. There's no scorecard when it comes to struggle. Struggle is universal, right? And so that's the thing that I always think about when I'm in that situation. And to get out of that, I— that's the hope. That's what gets me out of it as well, right? Before I, before I wet on myself, I have my little pity party. I always say, okay, it could always be worse. Probably the best thing that I can tell you is one of the things that I always remind myself of is a very dear high school friend of mine who taught me how to play drums, by the way, when we were in grade 11 and grade 12. Back in 2010, he passed away of ALS. At 44 years old,

that's a tough one. ALS. Wow.

Yeah, and it was the most excruciating and horrific thing to watch. My one of my best friends, who was very active, amazing, amazing drummer, taught martial arts to children, and was very good at at at. Like kickboxing is one of the things that he was really, really good at. But to see this fellow who was so active and so full of life and vivacious and creative, and watching him just deteriorate over 3 years was really hard. So whenever I get kind of emotional with it, but whenever I get into those moments where I'm like, oh, I'm having a bad day, I just think of my buddy Carl, and I think he would trade my worst day right now to get back into the ring. He would trade my worst day right now to get back on his drum set. Uh, he would trade my worst— he would trade anybody's worst day just to have another chance, right? Um, and that's what I always kind of remind myself of in those situations, that it could always be worse. Yeah, it sucks when it's— when you're in it. Yeah, it sucks, and, uh, but it can always be worse.

I was just wondering— so first, thank you for sharing so openly, Joachim. Um, I was wondering, has it to do with perspective?

Yes, um, especially when you get to, to the age of, you know, like, uh, especially when you get to around 60. Yeah, when you get to 60, you've got 60 years on the planet to look back. And I look, I You know, my, my dad's gonna be 90, so I've, I've, he's got 30 years on me still. So, and, uh, he always tells me to keep moving. So it's one of the reasons why I keep playing hockey and, and stuff like that. So, but, um, uh, you know, I, sorry, I lost the question now. I was off on a tangent here. My, my ADHD's kicking in.

You know, that's exactly what it's meant to happen. So my question was basically, does it have to do because we lose perspective?

Right.

Or what's really going on?

You know, that's 100%. We do lose perspective because we get so focused on ourselves and our own bubble that we only think about what's happening to us. Uh, and, uh, I know when I was younger in my 20s and 30s that, you know, I was very individualistic at that point in time. Like, my time was worth more than yours, as an example. Um, you know, I, I knew everything and you didn't. And, um, there's, you know, when, when we're young, we, we tend— because we don't have the frame of reference that we do when we're older.

Mhm.

Um, we tend to have a very narrow view of it and we think our narrow view is the right view. Mm-hmm. Um, the one thing I learned, um, when I was at about that age, and it was basically a punch in the gut, uh, was, um, something one of my creative— my first creative director told me. And that is like, there's a difference between doing things right and doing the right thing.

Mm-hmm.

And you need to learn how to do the right thing. And I didn't quite understand what he meant by that at the time. But as you get older, you tend to put 2 and 2 together and connect the dots, right? Um, it wasn't until maybe 10 or 15 years after that where I started to, uh, okay, I see what he meant by that, right? Um, but it takes it, but, but it takes time to get out of that perspective, to get out of, to get out of that me, me, me perspective, which I think is really what you're talking about. What, what, what? Which I think is what you're asking here. And, and I've, and I've been there. I know exactly what that's like, and that's not a very good place, right? Because ultimately you alienate people. You, you end up, um, um, you know, you end up isolated for the wrong reasons. Let's put it that way.

I'm just wondering about something. Your experience might be different. When I meet younger people, they have less this will mean. So they kind of have more perspective. And the older we get, the more we lose perspective. So let's think about this for a moment. Like sometimes, and you know, I include myself, that's why I can speak so frankly. Sometimes I really feel we're spoiled brats, literally spoiled brats. The better we are doing economically, the better we're doing physically, the more we feel entitled to stuff. And if those things aren't met, tantrum. It should be tension.

And you know what, and this is a very interesting topic on perspective because your perspective has now made me think of a different frame of reference. And, um, this is the beauty about having conversations like this.

Exactly.

Um, the beauty about having perspective. And I don't think you're wrong. I think you're actually onto something there where, um, perhaps we do lose perspective as, as, as we get older. One of the things that, that I think people are, at least our, my generation, can learn from is unlearning and then relearn because some of what maybe worked, say, for us years ago or what has, what has worked for us may not work today in the, in our reality today. Mm-hmm. And, you know, a good example would be just the state of the world that we live in today is quite different than it was a year ago. So you've got— you see all kinds of governments around the world making changes and, you know, having to alter their courses because of the way things are going. Right. And I think we as a— we as individuals maybe have to do the same thing. Um, and, you know, take stock of where we're at, reevaluate where we're at, um, and be open-minded.

Something, brother.

Yeah. And be open-minded about maybe I, maybe I'm the one who needs to change.

You are onto something,

right?

That's where perspective comes into play.

Yep, exactly. Right.

Literally, because, you know, me living in the US now, I just realized that so many people, they're totally caught Cold by what's going on right now in your world.

Yeah.

It's because it has worked. You've just been a part of it. But now suddenly anything works anymore as it worked yesterday. And now you literally can either say, throw away what is called the tantrum. There's a word before the tantrum. But you understand the tantrum thingy. So you can basically throw a tantrum, or you can say, okay, because reality— I actually do not believe that there is one reality either.

Hmm.

I think it's way more complex. It's way more complex. I believe reality has a lot to do with how you perceive things. And how you perceive things is how you see reality. You probably know about that story where there was an animal, I'm not sure, a cow or something like that in India, I believe it was, where 6 blind men were led to the animal and they started describing what they feel. So in the beginning, it was You know, kind of orderly. But then one suddenly started saying something which the other one didn't feel. So he started accusing him of lying. You see what I mean?

Yep.

So I believe that's what it comes down to. So I believe most importantly is to see that every single person has their own reality. Based on their perception.

So yes and no. And I'll throw this out there and see where you think about this. But this gets back to a conversation I had with Mark last week, and that is there was a time when Pluto was not a planet, right? And then it was a planet. And then it was— now it's not a planet again.

Right?

So the facts changed and the truths have changed, but Pluto is still Pluto.

Mhm.

Right? Pluto hasn't changed.

Mhm.

Right? That's the reality, right?

Mhm.

The other one is gravity. I mean, we can, we can have our own perspective and our own truths about what we believe gravity, gravity to be.

I see where you're going. Yeah.

And if I decide that I can fly because I believe I can fly, And I jump off a building and I, you know, I kill myself because I don't believe that gravity cannot make me fly. The reality is that gravity is real, whether we like it or not, whether we believe it or not. Right? So the reality is that gravity is gravity. So I think that's, that was the point that, um, the, the, that was the distinction that Mark was making between truth, fact, and reality. And I think where we get caught up is Our truths and our facts that we collect to create what we think is reality, but it's not necessarily reality, right?

So let me ask you something to understand. So what does Markus say to my following question? Who defines reality? Because there must be a definition of reality. Gravity, as we said, yeah, I can go on the skyscraper and jump and be left fly. Clarity will show me better. Is it that if we would go inside that everyone actually feels reality whether we want it or not? It's almost like if you look at those pygmy tribes. I had the privilege to work with an anthropologist. Mm-hmm. And he said to me, Markus, They did not have to be taught what's good and bad. It's actually, if you had tried to teach them, they would have been confused because they knew it. So he described it as moral and ethics. He said moral is everything that's coming from outside, can be religion, can be society, can be— Culture. Whatever, right? And ethics is what those pygmy tribes lived by, waking up knowing precisely, without having been taught the good gospel, what's good and what's bad. And he said, even if one tried to trick herself or himself, if you looked into their eyes, They knew what was right and what was wrong. So have we kind of lost that sense for actual reality? And thus we take our perception and kind of create our reality and sell to our neighbor, well, my reality is the reality. Because, you know, I remember I had once this conversation with a friend. About an ex-girlfriend. And I said, she is so out of reality. Then my friend said, Markus, you're an arrogant snob. You are selling your reality as the reality. So this is why I love that story that The animal is reality. So, Mark, you and I, we're not so much far away, I believe.

Absolutely. I think the animal, and I believe it was an elephant in that parable, right?

Exactly.

The elephant is still the elephant, right?

Yeah.

And to Mark's point, Pluto is still Pluto.

Yeah.

It doesn't matter what we think it is. Pluto is still Pluto, right? The elephant is still the elephant, right? That's the reality, right? Our interpretation of it, right, based on what we touch, we see, we feel, that is, that is not necessarily reality. That is our interpretation of reality. Right. And I think that's what Mark was also pointing out when we, when he was making the delineation between the truth and the facts. Right? Because the truth and facts can, can be skewed to create a false sense of reality.

Right.

We also, we also see that today as well. Right? Yeah. And

yeah, we see more today than probably any generation before, to be honest.

Well, maybe, maybe there was, maybe there was a similar one back in the, about 90 years ago in Yeah. But in today's, in, in today's world, like we're, we're seeing, we're, we're seeing, you know, what we believe are visible, are, are, are, are truths and facts that are being countered with, we believe, non-truths and non-facts. Right. And that, and, and of course you can debate that till the cows come home, right? Until you realize that Okay, that's an elephant. Even though you think it's a piece of rope because you're only touching the tail, or you think it's a hose because you're only touching the, you know, the, you know, the trunk, or a horn because you got your hand on the, on, on the tusk, it's an elephant, right? Because you're not seeing, you're not seeing it for what, for actually what it is. And again, like, The case of Pluto, I mean, scientists said it's not a planet and then they said it is a planet and now it's not a planet again. Right. So, but it's still, it's still the, it's still a thing. It's still a thing that's orbiting the Earth, orbiting the sun. It's always been a thing that's orbiting the sun. So, right. Whether what we call it is, is neither here nor there, it's still there. Right.

So basically, Doesn't it come down to, Hakim, that we actually need to label stuff? And that labeling creates a lot of dissension and a lot of confusion. Instead of saying, okay, if Hakim sees it differently, I just let it be. I'm actually more curious to hear Why you see it how you see it, instead of trying to convince you of my own point of view. And I believe that's something that many viewers and listeners will profit from when they actually make that perspective change. Honestly, okay, people who are, in my mind, skewed are the ones who are most interesting to me. Because I can tell you, one of the reasons why I do my show is because I said to myself, stillness is such a universal thing that's so missing. How better can I actually have this stillness as this elephant than having all of us blind people go around it and with each episode describe a new element of stillness. It's crazy if you think about it.

Yeah.

Because I said, look, I begin— when I began, I said it's like little puzzle pieces coming together, and then you suddenly have a huge puzzle together and you see little micros in the macro. But I believe it's pretty much as I just said, it's the elephant, which every one of us already has a perspective about. In the dialogue, we actually learn from each other more. And I sometimes jokingly said when I was teaching, the one who actually profits the most from my classes is myself. Because I know from the first second that me asking questions puts me into an advantage in terms of getting something out of it.

Totally agree.

So, so I believe that is an interesting thing to know. Goodness me, we are all dealing with an animal. No one understands in its entirety. So remember, like the philosopher said, the more I know, the more I know that I don't know anything. It's pretty much what it comes down to. And actually start making it almost like a dogma, which I believe is a really good dogma to say, you know what, let me first understand before I try to make myself understood. So think about how life and world would change if that be the case.

We'd have different geopolitics for sure. Um, I think the, the, you're, you know, you make a very, very interesting point in that we don't celebrate our differences enough as we should. And that, that also means we don't have to agree that what we believe and what, say, what I believe and what you believe are, should be the same thing as an example.

Why do you think that is? There is a, there is an element behind it. Why I'm trying to make the other one be like me instead of celebrating The differences. Why do you think that is?

I think that's just a human condition that's been— I mean, that's, that's been a battle, a human battle that's been going on for millennia. Um, you can go right back to, you know, Roman times, Greek times, gosh, even probably Babylonian, Sumerian times if you, if you, if you want to really get into it. That, I mean, that, that, that's a The whole, the whole idea of colonization and conquering other nations was to make them like you or make them like us, so to speak. You know, the Crusades during, during the medieval times was all about, if you're not Christian, we're gonna burn you at the stake. So there's, there's a— that's, that's in our— that's in the DNA of humanity. And so Rather than celebrating differences. If you're not like me, you're different, and that means you're a threat,

right? Threat comes from fear, correct?

Absolutely. And look, and there's only— you can choose 2 things. You can either choose to love something or be afraid of it, right? And if you love something, um, you find ways to understand it. When you're afraid of something, you find ways to hate it and to ultimately fight it, right? And so you see that yin-yang thing going on for— again, that's just, that's part of being human beings is battling with the dark and the good and the evil, the, you know, the dark force and the good force, you know, if you want to get into Star Wars and stuff like that. I mean, that's just, that's just That's just his— the history of mankind, really. And for some reason that doesn't change. I always think of it as like Carl Sagan once talked about the pale blue dot as an example of when I think Voyager was at the very cusp of the solar system and took a picture of the Earth. It was a tiny little blue speck. And, and I remember him saying, that is where all the wars have happened. This is where you struggle to get out of bed to go to work or go to school or complain that your car doesn't start, that spec. And I always think of that as, again, getting back to perspective, right?

Yes.

It's that picture of the galaxy with the arrow that says you are here. And now with the James Webb Telescope, we know that We are like the, you know, Earth is a speck in billions of specks in one galaxy amongst billions of other galaxies.

Yeah.

So just the, just the sheer expanse of that, um, we aren't like, we are pretty minuscule when you think about it. Um, and so I always think of like, Why? It's, it's more worth to— it's more worth it to me, at least. Let's put it this way. For me, my perspective is it's more worth to me to understand you, what you celebrate, why you celebrate what you celebrate, what traditions that you hold dear to your heart, what rituals that you do in your home, what food you eat, what music you listen to, what God you pray to, even whether you even call it God. Mm-hmm. I'm interested in that, right? Because that gives me perspective, that gives me agency, that gives me a sense of belonging. I don't have to agree, or I don't have to go to your church. I don't have to like the food that you eat. But I like the conversation. I like to be able to interact and understand what makes us different, right? I'm not better than you. You're not better than me. But together, we can be better at being better people rather than trying to convince each other.

I love that in your answer. Yeah. Yeah. Not better, not better than, but better at something. It's interesting.

So again, that's perspective, right? Like, it's, it really gets down to understanding each other rather than trying to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong. Like, who's, who am I to tell you that, right?

Does that come from not taking yourself so darn important?

Oh, absolutely. Because I used to do that. Right. I used to think— I used to take myself way too seriously.

And now— Looking for seriousness.

Yeah, well, most seriously and important, like, you know. But, you know, when you— let me put it this way. When you're playing a show live and you screw up, it humbles you. Right? It humbles you.

Yeah.

Right? Especially when the audience notices. When you're playing a game, like an important game, and as a goalie, you let a really bad goal in, everyone notices. Right? You become vulnerable. Right? I think that's where you have the humility to know that you're fallible as a human being. you do make mistakes and people notice the mistakes that you make. In marketing, it's, it's, it like, it's, it's like, it's rampant, right? If things are working, you don't hear about it. But if things aren't working, you hear about it, right?

Yeah.

Um, and, uh, so it's interesting, like the, uh, the, the profession I chose is similar to the position I play in music, the position I play in—

Yeah, yeah. I'm not surprised.

You know, and it's again, It's a lifelong lesson for me, at least, that the vulnerability is what makes us better at being better.

And I believe that's the key, the vulnerability stuff. Because if I take myself too serious, I will not allow vulnerability. If I'm not vulnerable, I will never start to think outside of my purview. So I will never be interested in you. Definitely not if you are not thinking like me. Definitely not asking, why are you not thinking like me? Definitely not asking myself, Markus, what do I miss? Because Hakim seems to be quite, quite convinced about what he's thinking. So it has to do with the part of insecurity.

Mm-hmm.

If I try to make anyone else like me instead of understanding, gosh, we all have this elephant called life. And the more I actually ask you, Hakim, If you move your hand up a little bit, how is it? Tell me more about it because I might never get to your position.

That's okay.

Right? But the thing is, I know how it feels because you shared about it. But to say, no, it's impossible because I'm at that huge leg, the back leg. back leg of an elephant, and you start telling me about that trunk that is soft and you can twist it and mold it. And if I believe I have to be right, I will never really understand, gosh, I don't even have to get to that trunk. For me, it's enough to have heard it. And this is what I love. You know, there's somebody who Eleanor Roosevelt said, learn from the mistakes from others because you'll never have enough time to make them yourself, which is deep if you think about that.

Absolutely.

I would have loved to got to know that lady, Eleanor Roosevelt, really.

Yeah, yeah, she was a smart cookie.

Gosh. So what is it that can pull you out Or away from yourself? And what helps you come back to it again?

Again, those 3 activities gets me out of, gets me out of the trap of being inside myself too much. The, because I'm accountable in those situations, maybe not on the hiking side of things, I'm more accountable to myself, but definitely on the, on the professional side for sure. But on the— if I'm playing, um, hockey is a team sport. Even if you're a goalie, you're still part of the team. So I'm, I'm accountable. Like, really, then I'm the last line of defense as a, as a goaltender. Um, so I'm accountable to, to the team. I'm accountable to, to helping the team win the game, so to speak, right? Um, same with being a drummer. Like, I'm accountable to the band to keep the rhythm section in check, right, with my bass player. Um, I'm not there to, you know, take the spotlight, right? I'm there to maintain the rhythm, right, the beat. So if I don't do that, it throws everyone off, right?

Mm-hmm.

So, so being in those situations gets me out of the, the, the me bubble, gets me out of the, um, out of this, this, uh, um, perspective that I'm, I'm important, or I'm, you know, the world needs to revolve around me. Uh, and, uh—

Let me ask you something. Sorry to interrupt, but I'm curious now. When you say out of the me bubble, and you mentioned initially that if you are, let's say, behind your drum kit, You apparently are out of the me bubble, and that makes you untouched by expectation or performance. So would the key be to wherever you are in life, whatever you do in life, if you actually would do it deliberately to get out of that me bubble, You could absolutely replicate in the store at a cashier what you can do behind your drum kit. So this could basically almost become a universal key for someone to understand, if I manage to get out of my me bubble and see myself more as a part of the bigger, you said something like that, right? Of the bigger good, that I would actually lose that taking myself so serious and important, thus loosen up, thus become much more relaxed, much less me-centered, and suddenly being interested in other people's perspective.

Well, and I think you're— so you've hit on a really important point here, and that is, this is how I see it, is I used to see my position as a way to hide, right?

Hide behind the kit.

Yeah. Hide behind the mask, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, but I now see it as a part of the sun. Right? Because without it, it's— it, it, it doesn't work, right? And I look at, uh, and again, I'm getting, getting back to Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot. We are also a part of the sun, right? And we're all in this, we're all on the speck of dust all together.

Mm-hmm.

And There's no, there's no reason, really. There is no reason to fight. There really isn't. When you think about it, there is no reason to really pick on each other as we are right now. There really isn't. There's, um, it's proven scientifically that there's enough land to have more than 11 billion people. More than 11 billion people.

Exactly.

There's enough food to go around for more than 11 billion people.

Yeah.

There's enough on this, on this little speck of dust that we're, that we live on, that we don't have to go to Mars. There is enough for everyone. We are conditioned to think that there isn't because we don't do what you and I are doing right now, having a conversation around perspective, having a conversation around the differences that we

Celebrate.

We are taught to be afraid of each other. We are taught to literally hate each other if we're not the same.

By design.

By design, 100%.

By design. I'm not sure whether you figured that, but one of my understanding is stillness is to remember who you once were. Before the world taught you who you had to become.

Right.

This is the main reason why I do my show, because every single time when I have these conversations, someone leaves closer to, huh, this actually doesn't sound so crazy what we just discussed. It really resonates somehow. Yes. And the reason why it resonates, because it was once your truth.

Yes.

Think back to when you were a child.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Goodness me. And people tell me, yes, Markus, but that was when you were a child. I said, no, not at all. That's what's missing in today's world.

Yeah, 100%.

And sadly, the ones who start wars, Are all women. Did you realize? No, it's all men. It's all men.

Yes, the patriarchy is strong.

Every single time. Yes, when I have a woman as my guest, it is every single time that I sense it doesn't take much to actually trigger that initial who they once were before the world taught them to become. But with men, it's quite often like, what is he talking about? I cannot even remember how I was as a child. Yeah, when I actually take them into the childhood, they absolutely can.

Sure.

So I personally believe taking who we once were, because I believe we all grown or all born with seeds. And when they got nurtured, like courage, for example, creativity, all these C words, if they got nurtured, they actually built the foundation for a healthy life. And now, if we actually can take what we had initially as the stuff that the world taught us we have to forget, Because it doesn't fit into the mold. It's sad. Literally, it comes down to there are forces that try to teach the world to hate their neighbor. Yep. We're really at that point. But then when I meet those people, and I love that show so much where a Black American met a guy who was one of the heads of the KKK. And the other guy had no clue what's going to happen with him. And in the end, they turned out to become friends.

Right.

It was so incredible to see. But he still fought it, that he actually more than likes this Black new friend. You know, it's so deep ingrained, that brainwashing that takes place.

Yep, 100%.

But as children, we have it absolutely in us. Absolutely in us.

Yeah.

Because we are the same.

Oh, absolutely.

Yes, the one has the more beautiful color than I do. That's what I thought when I saw a black or a brown or yellow or red, whatever. I always thought my skin is actually pretty boring. And you know what the most ridiculous thing is? I recently had someone who, you know, identifies as a Black American woman, and I said to her, honestly, isn't that so crazy? We are heading somewhere where we can have sun for a couple of weeks to have the slightest color like you, but the rest of the year we fight you. Because of the color of your skin. Isn't that nuts?

It's crazy. It's crazy. And getting, getting back to your, your, your example of, of the child, uh, one of my, one of my favorite videos that my dear friend, uh, Terry Sylvan, who, who is from Jamaica— uh, it's where he's from, Toronto, but his family's from Jamaica, so he's Black, um, great guy— and but he sent me this video, uh, years ago, and I still Remember this. It's, it's 2 children, um, seeing each other, uh, because they're friends and they're like maybe 4, maybe 4, maybe 3, 4 years old, mostly 4. Like, they not— they can't be older than 5, but they're probably 4 years old. So, and they recognize each other and they're running like they're with their arms out towards each other to give each other big hugs. One is Black, one is white. They have no clue or any perception of race. It's just that they're buddies. You see these 2 4-year-olds just with big, big grins on their faces.

I know the video, it always makes me cry when I see

it. Yeah. That's what children see, right? They see the joy that their expecting. They're not seeing that, oh, you just— you look different. They don't— they don't even know that until their parents tell them that.

Yeah, that's when fear sets in.

Exactly right.

And this suddenly becomes fear.

I remember my son was, uh, in, I think, grade 1, I believe it was, and we went to one of his school plays, and one of his dear friends was this very— he was the tallest kid in the class. This is like He was 6 years old, but he looked like he could be in grade 4, right? Like, and he's a really tall kid. And, um, and he happens to be from, uh, from Fiji, right?

Mm-hmm.

And my son says, uh, uh, hey, Papa, that's my best friend Vedant. And I said, who, who is that? Like, which one is Vedant? He goes, he's a really tall kid. He didn't say the brown kid.

Right.

The tall kid.

Right.

And, oh cool, that's for that, right? I was so proud of my son that he didn't go to color, he went to, look how big this kid is, right? Because he was bigger than everyone else in the lineup, he was like a good head above everyone else, right?

That's what it should be, shouldn't it?

That's exactly what it should be. It shouldn't be about Okay, so you happen to be Muslim, so you go to temple, I go to church. Does it matter? We're all praying to the same thing, even though we believe it's not. The reality is it all goes to the same source. That's the reality, right? But we like to believe it's not. Um, anyway, that's a, that's a, that's a different conversation.

So to bring this one to a close, Is it possible that the more questions I ask, the more I move away that my reality is the reality? And by understanding so many different realities that I actually get to the point to the real reality?

Yeah.

It's almost like we are morphing back into being a part of that pygmy tribe.

Yeah,

because basically they're all brainwashed.

Yeah,

right. Like, the biggest, the biggest thing is when I remember when people said to me, you know, that's how Jesus looks. I thought, hmm, in which world?

Yeah,

in which world do you actually remember? Yeah, exactly. Do

you remember a white ginger Jesus? Okay. All

right, right. Do you actually remember where Jesus grew up? Like, real, real grew up. Not in your Bible, but real grew up.

Exactly.

And that's when I understood, gosh, it's fascinating. So I have one more question for you, Hakeem. If someone feels really overwhelmed right now when she or he listens or watches our show, What would you want them to return to?

Serenity. Just chill. Because the world is— just chill. Because the world is gonna keep spinning around the sun. The sun's gonna keep spinning around the Milky Way. The Milky Way is gonna keep spinning around all the other galaxies. Right? This gets back to, you know, what you were talking about earlier, just now, actually. And that is like, the reality is we are all on the speck of dust together in this sea, massive, massive sea of other galaxies, not just alone, other planets and stars, right? That's the reality. And we can debate that or try to refuse that or whatever till the cows come home. But that is the reality. We're all on this Speck of dust together. So just chill.

That's beautiful. Thank you so much for this conversation, Aki.

Thank you. It's always great, always great to chat with you, Markus.

Likewise. This was Remembering the Forgotten, a conversation held in clarity, not performance. If something in this exchange shifted how you see, let it stay with you. A few quiet pointers are waiting below.