Ep 62 When Connection Fades A Conversation with Patrick Duriaux

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no performance, just 2 people thinking out loud. These conversations aren't about delivering insight, but what happens when thinking unfolds in real time. Because there are moments where you can feel that the answer is already there, but you can't quite reach it. And then something shifts and suddenly it's simple. Not new, just clear. That's this space. There's a moment in life where connection stops feeling optional. Where what used to happen naturally now requires intention, where people are surrounded yet feel increasingly alone. Today I'm joined by Patrick Deweer. Patrick has spent over 2 decades working at the intersection of leadership, human development, and organizational transformation. And is now the founder of Alto, a platform designed to reconnect generations and restore something quietly disappearing— human closeness. But this conversation isn't about his career. It's about what he saw that made him move. Because at some point, The question changes. It's no longer, how do we build better organizations, but rather, what happens to a society when connection itself begins to fade? With that, welcome Patrik to the show.

Hey, thank you so much, Markus. It's an honor to be with you today. Thank you so much for inviting me, and I'm very looking forward to have a normal, eyeball-to-eyeball conversation with you. And I like the fact that it's very spontaneous and it's also very human. And as you just said, I love humankind and human beings.

It's really great to have you, Patrick.

Thank you.

So before we begin, just notice what becomes clear. when nothing is in the way. And with that, where can you just be yourself, untouched by expectation or performance?

Just to say, Markus, I'm sorry to say that now, but the camera just froze. Oh, okay.

Those are the technical things, right?

Yes, exactly.

Let me just flip it to my Mac camera.

Part of the spontaneity as well.

Yes, oh, absolutely. And it shows there is no fake behind it.

Yes, I can see you again.

That's why we have a Mac camera.

Beautiful, very nice.

So let me ask you the question again.

Sure, please.

Where can you just be yourself, untouched by expectation,

I think personally I try to be as authentic as I can be with everyone, either at work or with my friends or family. I think it's— for me, it's important not to play a role. So I've heard feedback that I'm the same if I'm at work, I'm the same if I'm with my family or with my friends. I think that's a very important thing. So I think it's important to also listen to people and not always trying to push an agenda. So for me, I try to be as aware as possible when it comes to that. And of course, I'm not perfect. But as you are a coach as well, I think we can feel when people are trying absolutely to push an agenda, which again comes with expectations from a meeting. So it can sometimes become a bit uncomfortable. So as I've left it on that side of the table, I try to just be authentic and have a normal conversation and exchange. So for me, it's also about exchanging and not doing a monologue.

So that's very refreshing because, as you can imagine, I've been doing now 60 episodes, and I ask the same question to every person. And I believe I had one, maybe 2 guests so far who gave a similar answer like you.

Hmm.

But most people either have to go into meditation, have to go somewhere up to the mountains, have to go on an island where there's no one else. So why do you think, and I think it pretty much goes into your heart's project, Aalto, why is it that we as a society feel that we need to separate ourselves from other people in order to be ourselves? And not to be manipulated by expectations or projections of other people. So something seriously went wrong.

Yeah, I hear you.

So what is your take on that?

I think there's, first of all, the technology. I think we are bombarded by information. So what you just said, I also heard a lot. And I like going for a hike myself as well and going to the mountain. I've got a lot of friends who are actually doing exactly what you just So they're doing that to step back and have another rhythm. I think the rhythm of their day-to-day activity, being bombarded by email, by texts, social media information, it's too much. So they really want to go outside of the city, close to nature, and slow down. I think it's also linked with the rhythm, which helps them, I think, self-reflect. I think self-reflection is not necessarily easy to do. For some people it's easy, for other people it's not easy. But I think being bombarded by information constantly is not helping. So some people can reflect very easily, step back, maybe go for a little walk, 5 minutes, and reflect deeply, quickly. Some other people cannot do it, and they really need to change totally the scenery, change the altitude, change the oxygen to be able to go deep with their thoughts. And there's no judgment in that. We're all different. And I think it's maybe why people, again, being outside and close to nature, come back to a center self of authenticity. And maybe again, as you say, because we are asked to perform at work, for instance, so there's probably a bit of mask to try to be or show better attitude than maybe in reality. I guess it's the same as well in relationship. If you are at home, some people again will not say the same thing to their wife or husband than they will say to their manager. And that's fine. I'm just saying there's obviously maybe a bit of a mask into it when we go to work. So maybe people, to get rid of the mask, maybe they need to be closer to nature and be back to themselves, their own authenticity. It's an

interesting aspect you just mentioned. I don't think there was any generation more connected Than ours, right? And the next ones to come.

You're right.

And I don't think there was ever that little connection ever in society. Why is that? I don't think it's healthy.

That's a very good point. I think my experience, And it's only my experience, but I think if you look at generations, we and maybe our parents or grandparents were used to talk to each other, were used to sit down at a table and have a nice dinner. By the way, you have a nice chair, so I wish I was at your table having dinner with you now and you could pass me the salt.

We'll have that one

day. But I think the technology has helped to some extent, has helped a lot of people, but in another way as well, it's like everything else. Is good with some limits or some measures, and maybe some people are maybe using too much social media, too much technology, and they don't have that limit anymore. So I agree with you. I think I've, as you know, for my project, I've interviewed a lot of seniors, I've interviewed a lot of people middle-aged, and also younger generation. And I agree with you, what's happening is a lot of younger generation Surprisingly, and I was really happy to hear that, they're not afraid to say that sometimes they feel isolated. Yes, they have maybe 1,000, 10,000 friends on social media, but they also know very well that it's not real friends. That's not the kind of friends who will be there when they have a serious challenge in life. So yeah, I think it's something to measure and staying connected You know, for real, I think it's very important. A hug, shaking hands of people, it's totally different than just being on social media with different platforms. And I'm guilty, I use social media, but again, I try to not spend too much time and I try to also have quality time with my friends and family and not to use my phone, not even put it on the table when I have dinner with friends, for instance. So it's just a question of a bit of discipline, I guess.

So you realized I did not react when you mentioned your social media use, because my social media use, except LinkedIn, is where I post, where I comment on my own posts, comments. I very rarely use social media. I went actually that far on Facebook and I found an extension which deletes my entire feed and it presents me with a quote on a daily basis, which I thought, wow, that's actually amazing because I cannot stand that noise of a Facebook feed, which is crazy. So people came and said, you know what, there must be a way technologically that we can eliminate that feed. So here's my thing. Have we as a society come so far that we are not able anymore to decide to reduce our social media consumption by, let's say, 20 or 30%? Because, you know, you said it takes discipline and it takes willingness.

Sure.

So tell me, tell me one thing. When you decide not to spend time on Facebook or on social media in general, what is the upside for you to spend time with human beings instead?

I think it's a real connection and it's a real refreshment. It energizes me to speak with people and really be focused on the person, really listen. I try my best to listen to the people. And I think those, as you say, noise, you're right to say that noise, they can, they're really noise in your mind too if you're always constantly on the phone. Yes. And again, I've been to tables of friends, 6 people around the table. Did I ever have a dinner where no one touched their phone for 2 hours? Never happened. There's always someone who, they check something on a phone and you think, is that that urgent? And there's, I think, a question of discipline.

It's an addiction.

It is, you're right.

It's literally an addiction. So I believe, Patrick, it literally gets to the point where There is a withdrawal symptom. Like you probably saw those short videos where parents took away children's phones.

Yeah.

It was like they were on coke and they did not get their coke dose.

Yeah, you're right.

They went ballistic.

Yes, you're right.

Physically, physically ballistic.

No, you're right. It's interesting, I think in Australia they even voted a law to— I can't remember the age, I don't want to say something wrong, but there is a law which is not allowing some children to a certain age to use social media. So they are starting to take actually legal action to protect the younger generation. And that's, I think, what you're saying. It's also interesting because I think there is a question of generation. If I would have been— and I'm not judging— because if I would have been brought up with a phone since I'm born, and my parents accepted that, and my parents were saying, it's fine that you check your phone during dinner, I would be like everyone else, I would be doing the same thing. Right. So I think there's also a question of education to some extent, what we get as a child from the parents. And that's also easier if you've been taught since you're a kid At the table, we speak. After that, we play maybe board games. We're not touching the phone. There's some rules. That will be easier later on for people who have been educated this way to not touch the phone all the time, as if constantly since their childhood they're on the phone, they're on a tablet. Then of course it's more difficult to, as you said, if you compare that to drug addiction, that's an addiction, you're right. So it's much more difficult then to change the mindset.

Because you're familiar with the attention span that the average person has today, right?

Yeah.

Crazy.

No, you're right. I was actually, I went to a seminar of a friend of mine who is a coach and she's a mental health coach. Very interesting session she did. And she was speaking about a study she did in the University of St. Gallen in Switzerland with some students. And they had a challenge, it was called a detox challenge, where they actually had not to touch their phone, I can't remember exactly, but I think for a weekend, and not social media for a week. And then they were surveyed, how did you feel about that? And that was really— I got smacked because they all felt better one way or another. Some felt better physically. Less neck pain, better sleep, better focus, some were better at connecting with people, socializing, going for a walk with friends, at the table actually literally speaking again with their family. And one of the main things which really shocked me is actually the self-esteem. So almost 50% of them mentioned that they had better self-esteem not touching the phone. And we speak on a short amount of time, it's a week. So can you imagine if you are more, I would say, healthy with your phone for 6 months? I think that would be very powerful and very beneficiary when people are, I would say, in the extreme opposite, when they're always constantly on their phone. But again, it's for everyone to do as they can, but I think there's some take from that study. I think it was quite interesting.

Thank you for sharing.

You're welcome.

So if you look at Aalto, do you actually get feedback from the seniors as well as from the youngsters after they had those sessions with each other?

Yeah.

You do?

Yeah, yeah, we do. We have actually feedback which is coming automatically after each session. And they can give feedback to each other. So yes, it's very interesting. I think it's very—

Would you mind sharing a little bit how the youngsters express themselves after that?

No, that's great. I think it's, again, youngsters, and again with Aalto and with Bright Bond, the podcast we created, I would say the overall mission is to try to combat loneliness or isolation. And as we know, it's not only seniors who might be isolated or lonely. It can touch anyone at any age. It can even touch people who are very active in their 30s with families and so on. But of course, it also touches younger generations, as we just said. Having 1,000 friends on Facebook, being on TikTok or Instagram constantly, it's one thing, but it doesn't reach out the same to your heart and in your soul when you interact with other people. And the fact to do intergenerational meetings, that's really interesting because they really, I would say, tune at one point. Maybe at the beginning they might not be tuned straight away, they might have preconceived ideas, but they both learn. So the young generation are really happy because they learn so much stories from senior people, from seniors who have so much to give to the society, so much experience in life, so much experience about what it means again to be a In their generation, there were no phones, I mean, no smartphones. The connection was totally different. So I think they kind of helped the young generation to slow down to some extent, to listen more, and to also see where are the real values. So that's also feedback I received from the younger generation. They sort of recenter them to what is important. And the seniors are very good at saying, what is important. Some of the seniors have been to war and they know how it was, how horrible it was. And sometimes younger generation have other, of course, worries and other concerns, other fears, but sometimes hearing that there were some challenges in life which were very tremendous can sort of help them recenter and slow down and try to see what is really important in my life. So kind of mentoring, I would say, there's a bit of mentoring, mentees and mentors relationship between the younger generation and older generations. So it's really beautiful to see and to hear, to be honest with you.

No, I really loved it when you introduced ALSO to me as an idea and as a concept. And as you remember, I connected you immediately with people because I've just realized that elderly people feel like they're being helped and they're probably not even aware that they actually can save a young person's future with simply a regular conversation.

Yeah.

Like when I looked at the, at the platform again before our call, I saw the one where the young photographer and the 80-something-year What was it? Even different kind of photography. The one of them was basically a business photographer, so, you know, photographing assortments for catalogs or whatever.

Exactly.

But if you look at the thing, like the two of them go out and that itself is beautiful.

Yeah.

Like think about even if they wouldn't speak the same language, But they would have the assignment, go out, find interesting objects and subjects.

Yeah.

And take pictures together, experience that experience because it's an experience, right?

That's right.

And I believe this is the biggest change if I compare social media and real life, Patrick. There is a real experience.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you know what's beautiful as well? If you think about, you know, I was very fortunate. You don't know that, but I was very fortunate to grow up with my mom who was a nurse at an elderly home.

I didn't know that. No.

And she was a nurse in a village taking care of all the elderly. Who still lived at home.

Interesting.

So imagine me as a little child. I walked with her to her patients. Let's say she had a female patient and her husband was doing well. So I talked with that husband as a little child. And I could tell you, when people ask me, where did you have that aliveness? I totally attribute it to those kinds of relationships I built.

Yeah.

As a little child.

It's amazing.

Think about that.

Yes.

And, you know, when you have these natural conversations, you actually learn dialogue. You learn how to live with conflict because, you know, We don't need an Iran war to understand how to learn to deal with conflicts. If you learn it in very small installments like a conversation, it becomes very natural. But I believe as low as the attention span is, as low is the threshold for many youngsters to live with conflict. extremely fast overwhelmed.

Yeah, I agree.

So I really applaud you for your idea, and I'm going to support it more and more with introductions because I really believe, and I actually did not even think of that because you mentioned Dee, my friend Dee, who mentioned her daughter. I did not think at that moment That this actually might be even more important for the younger generation than it is actually for the seniors.

I couldn't say for whom it's the most important, but I'm sure it's important for both.

Isn't it interesting, right? So when you started the idea, was it having both in mind initially?

Yes.

So you felt that from the get-go?

Yeah, but to be honest, the design was more because I took the preconceived ideas that younger generation will be more IT savvy. So the design of the app, I really thought about the seniors to make it as simple as possible. But the concept, I did studies before launching the app, I learned, and it came from a personal experience when I met my neighbor Alice, and she was alone, and I started to speak to her, and then I realized, yeah, All week long, she's she might be alone or she might just get the nurse coming to her, give her medication, and then the rest of the time she by herself. So I was touched. I could not ignore that. Obviously, I knew it. I knew my neighbor downstairs. She's alone. So you have two choices: either you close your eyes and say, "Okay, I continue my life," but I could not do that. So I took the action to do something about it and to create Alto, create the app. And I think it's very easy to do. I think a lot of people can do that. And by doing research, of course, I've seen that younger generations are also isolated. Social media, as you say, you speak about reality and no reality. And I think social media feeds you with no reality to some extent. And we need reality to be grounded, to be on the floor, and nature gives us ground.

Mm-hmm.

Watching a mountain make us realize how small we are, and that's social media cannot do that. Social media might tend to do the opposite. Maybe you think that you are wonderful or great or whatever because you posted, you took some selfie here and there. So there's a question of reality, and I think it can help both. I think also to recenter the seniors get energy from the younger generation. So I get also a lot of feedback from seniors who say I love it because they push me. They can show me things on my phone, for instance, and they are very fun. And this, the younger generation, as I mentioned, they feel more centered and they feel that they can connect with someone. And seniors sometimes have seen that too. I have a senior actually, he told me he overpassed the parents because the parents didn't teach the kids not to use their phone. And he said, don't listen to your mama, just stop using your phone now. We're gonna have human being-to-human-being connection. And it was a discovery for the kids to have this experience from someone who was 80 years old, and I always hear positive about it. The young generation learns so much by this human-to-human being connection. And the other thing as well, and that's a question actually, I'm not sure, I cannot answer that question, is it simpler or easier, maybe, for some younger generation to connect with a senior than to connect with someone from the same generation. That I don't know, because I assume on the way, possibly some— I cannot obviously say for everyone. I also heard that sometimes the young don't find awkward sometimes to meet with the young, or they don't know how to approach. Maybe someone who is totally in another generation, maybe it's easy. I don't know. I was just thinking about that actually right now. But I hate positivity.

Let's talk about that for a moment. It's just opinion and opinion. We both don't know the truth. So the research I've done in my own work showed that youngsters spend time with youngsters believing that they have the answers that are needed to have a successful life. We both know it's not the case.

True.

And it's not— when I'm laughing, it's not that I'm laughing at youngsters. I'm laughing at the idea. Probably I was similar, that I thought my friends know exactly what's going on in the world. So if I talk with my friends, No, actually, I was not like that. I went to the elderly people. But what's interesting, I believe that many youngsters realize something interestingly. Their conversations lack depth. And I believe that's the key. It's not that they can't connect with their peers. I believe they can very well. It's quite easy for most. But at the same time, I believe even if they're not used to that, there is something in them, Patrick, which is searching and yearning for it.

Yeah, I agree. I agree with you. I think it's exactly— sorry, go ahead.

If you think about that aspect, right? And I believe what's interesting is At the same time, I hear from a lot of peer pressure, which you do not have if you meet someone from an elderly generation, right?

You're right.

And for everyone who listens, I believe it's important to understand that an initial hesitance to bridge generations is absolutely natural, right?

Yeah.

Like, imagine you go into a Stop and Shop or, you know, into Migros or whatever, and who as a youngster would approach an elderly person? They would not. It's just not fitting.

You're right.

They would say, what should I even talk about?

That's a good question.

And I think it's not so much to talk about, I think it's the experience.

You're right. And I think, if I may, what you just said at the beginning also about your own experience with your mother and interacting with seniors, I found that touching because it stayed with you, right? This experience stayed deeply ingrained in yourself and probably influenced you to some extent. And I can see that, of course, seniors and younger generations influence each other. for the better in one way or another. So I think it's very beautiful to see. And I was thinking when you were saying that about my own experience when I was a child. I spent a lot of time with my parents and friends of my parents, and without realizing it, I was— it's a true story, I never said that story, but it's true— I was in the bus coming back from school with 2 friends of mine, and we're talking in the public buses coming back home after school, and one of my friends said loudly, Hey Patrick, why do you always talk like an adult? And I remember seeing other people in the bus laughing. At the time, I didn't really remember or understood why, but that was just because I was influenced by the discussion I was listening to from my parents and friends of my parents. So I think you get influenced by senior or more senior people, and you keep that with yourself. And I think it's a powerful tool for life, actually.

Beautiful story. Did you sit at the table with them?

Yes, absolutely. We had dinner together and after the café, as we do after café, you know. And yeah, I was staying there and listening actually. So, so, so I'm thinking sometimes, you know, if that has an influence on who I am, and I'm sure it has because I was not talking much. I was really Listening, trying to understand what's going on, absorb the experience. I was not doing that consciously because I was a kid, but I think to some extent he has influenced and impacted me to be more on the listening side.

Have you grown up as an only child?

No, I had a sister. Older sister? Yes, she's five years older than me.

Okay, so you were basically almost. Your own generation is.

Exactly. Interesting. The youngster.

Interesting. Because that just reminded me, I usually sat under the table and I listened to the grown-up conversation.

Yeah. You still do that now?

Sitting under the table?

No, maybe not, but listening during a dinner more than talking. Yes. Okay.

Yes. Sometimes I wish I could go on for too long.

Depending on what are the topics, right?

Or the people are.

Yeah, very true. Yes, that's a good analogy. I like that.

No, I think it is kind of, you know, you are there, but at the same time you're in your own world.

Yeah.

Right. Like my father-in-law, when I met him, he was already in his— what was he, early 70s, something like that? Late 60s? Yeah, I think late 60s. And he walked away from the dinner table, went into the living room where he sat in his own chair, and one could think he walked away of the conversation. But he actually paid attention. So it was almost like me going under the table. I was a little child, like, I don't know how old, 3, 4, 5, 6 years, probably not even that. And I just found it comfortable there to be in my own world and at the same time to listen to those conversations, which is incredible.

Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Do you have actually a memory from, again, the interaction with senior people from your childhood, something that you— You can vividly remember a discussion or a tip, something you got from a senior who told you something?

You know what's interesting? If I would say I remember conversations, I don't.

Okay.

And I'll tell you why. There is this saying, and I think it's true. You do not remember what someone said to you, but you remember how that person made you feel.

Yes.

And that I can tell you with goosebumps, countless stories and experiences.

Yeah,

I think for me it was never really what we talked about. And as you can imagine, I was a little child. I think I was 2 or 3 years old when I started going with my mom. But what I had, I'm not sure whether I actually Still have it. One of the of the husbands, and you know they were all in their I don't know seventies, eighties already. One of them, he was weaving plastic, so he made me a a porte monnaie, a little purse.

Nice.

Yes, a little wallet. And I kept that as my prized possession throughout my entire life.

Hmm.

Because interestingly enough, I believe, especially when I was really young, it wasn't about what was said. And later I recall I had a grandmother who was already at a very high age when I was a youngster. So I lost her when I was 11 or 12, and she was in her 70s. So you can tell there's a huge, huge gap. And I think she instilled that thing even more with me because she was definitely the person I spent the most time with. I just love that. And if you think about my grandmother, she was schizophrenic.

Oh, really? Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

So I often ask my mom, why do you think I spent so much time with her in spite of her being schizophrenic? You know what her answer was? I don't think he knew.

That makes sense.

And if you knew, you didn't care. Yeah. Because you see, once again, for me, it's about meeting a human being for the experience.

Yeah.

I mean, it's not about what we talk about. Yeah.

The

talk about is basically quite often a filler, let's be honest, so many conversations.

Yeah.

We would say much more if we actually would not speak.

In

many cases, right?

Yeah. So you had the feeling of atmosphere maybe, right? Or emotional comforts with the people.

Yes. And, you know, I was living in a village with about 2,800 people, and we had an elderly home at the edge of the village itself, just before Germany, literally at the German border. So what I used to do, and I was quite young as well, I basically took my bike, rode to the elderly home, and just sat there where the elderly people sit when they have no one to meet. And I just talked.

Nice.

Asked questions. And I think this can be very helpful for a youngster who listens or for a parent who listens, by the way. I think it's a huge I use market for a moment. A huge market for you, people like Dee, who have the kids, because they are, you know, even if the kids say, Mom, I hate you every single day.

That's good.

It's not just hate you, right? It's actually a kind of a trust as well. If you think about if a parent can influence in positive sense their child to look at your app, they can literally work as a bridge between these 2 generations. Yeah. So now for that youngster, quite often it is difficult to begin a conversation or not to know what to talk about. But I can tell you the one thing that guided my entire life, entire my career, was ask one question.

Yeah, curiosity.

One question.

Yeah, exactly.

And the elders love to talk.

Of course, they have a lot of experience to share.

They love to talk.

Yes.

And the beauty is when you experience the elders It suddenly gives you this comfort. It suddenly gives you this sense of security, of being safe.

Yeah.

That before you understand it, you actually begin to ask another question because now you become curious. And then suddenly you actually start to begin to tell about yourself. And let's be honest, this is something which is totally missing today.

No, I agree, and I think you're so right to say that you might have, as you said, a mum that you don't like because you hear the same thing again and again. But the beauty to meet seniors is that you meet someone you don't know, who doesn't know you, who will come with a new angle, a new fresh eye. And that's, I think, quite inspirational for most of the cases. So it's sometimes difficult to evolve if you always hear the same thing or if you interact always with the same people. That's the same for Doesn't matter which generation we're in. I think it's good sometimes to change a bit who we interact with, because someone you don't know at all, so that person will have maybe no judgment on you and might come up with brilliant ideas. And I think it's true for the seniors giving advice to the young generation, and also sometimes, of course, the younger generation are also giving good advice to the seniors. And that's helped also the seniors to maybe understand more the younger generation as well. It's about learning and understanding each other as well sometimes.

It

can be, as you just say, what I'm going to talk about to that person, because he's young or because that person is senior. But again, as you say, if you are curious, if you ask one question, you realize that you have a load, a load, a load of things to learn from both sides, from both generations.

And I was just thinking about the I would reach out to Dee again and to other, I would say females, and ask them to introduce you to other mothers

who

have teenagers.

Sure.

Because I believe this could become the ambassadorship for you, which you could not wish for a better one. Because, you know, when mothers begin to organize, that's when things happen.

Oh yes, they're very efficient. I agree with you.

It's like grassroots, grassroots times 100. Absolutely.

I agree. And it's good, as you said, because there's no age limit. So that's also— I mean, there's an age limit which is 18 years old to be a Companion, but again, there's no age limit afterwards. So if you will, we have companions who are also 70 years old and want to be companions for people 80 years old. But yeah, I think, I think it can definitely help. It can be a refreshment, new pair of eyes, you know, side support to some extent, as you said, from seniors if parents are very busy. And we all are very, very busy, of course. So sometimes it's nice to have someone on the side who Again, can bring another pair of eyes, another pair of topics.

Actually, I meant something else. I meant something else because, you know, from where you are right now to reach the youngsters is not that easy. It depends.

Universities?

Yes, absolutely. But now when you have the parents And the parents actually introduce the children directly to your thing.

Sure.

I believe this is the easiest thing to do.

Sure. No, no, you're right.

And at the same time, you can kind of educate the parents as well.

I don't have this pretension. Let's be honest.

I see your point.

Yes. But no, I think it's It's the community who will teach each other.

Yeah,

I'm just the connector, obviously. But like you, I'm a coach too. But on that journey, I'm more connected and trying to connect people because they have both something rich to bring to each other and to influence each other.

So basically, I like your idea.

Thanks for thinking about it.

You're welcome. So basically, when the app is spread enough, The rest will take care of its own.

Yeah, I would assume so. Yes, sure. Because people are smart and they will be able to connect with the people they want to connect with. But I think it will help most probably, as you said, maybe a generation who maybe has a bit lost touch with human connection. So I think there's really a gap in the middle, and I think we can close the generation gap with the app. I've seen that and I see that already now in Switzerland.

So tell me a little bit, when you personally cross the generational gap, what's in it for you?

I think it's a human journey. I think I'm just happy to see that we can help people and people are getting happier, more engaged. For the elderly, of course, it's definitely also an impact on the mental health and physical health. There's research behind it to prove it. And it's true for the younger generation too, because there's also a high percentage of younger generation who have maybe anxiety, depression. And as I said, what we hear is that the seniors help them Slowing down, take your time, watch the nature. He spoke about the 2 photographers. The seniors will come with another type of eyes, what he likes to photograph, to do photography, and vice versa. But yes, it's a moment. You are speaking about the word moment. It is a moment together where you forget about the phone, you forget about the worries of life, and you are together. So I hope we can bring that to the generations, no matter which generation, but human connection. I think, I feel, and it's just my view, there's a lot of beauty and a lot of greatness in technology, but I feel that we're getting a bit more and more isolated with those technologies. I think one of our aims is to try to reconnect people, to rehumanize our people and have people reconnecting again, generations connecting again. So we hope we can help people with that. And I think the conversation sounds trivial, but it just starts with that, a conversation which turns into a relationship and a friendship, and then people get better. You do whatever you want. I don't know if I told you, but I realized later on, so we created the app and then we have experience, and then I saw the Netflix series Over 100 Years Old. You know, it's a Netflix series where they surveyed, it studies where are the oldest people on the planet. And to make the long story short, the denominator, the one common denominator, is not fitness or sport, it's not diet, it's actually interaction with other human beings, because we are obviously willing to connect and we are social animals. And that's the reason why people across the world usually live longer. And I thought about my own situation. Do I know someone who lived over 100 years old? And yes, I realized, yes, it's true. Aunt Emma, she was the aunt of my grandmother. She lived until 106 years old. Wow. And I was thinking, how was her life? And I realized, and I was very young when I met her for the last time, but I met her when she was 104. And when I entered her house, I remembered that it was full of people. So it was family and friends, And she was still dynamic. She was still doing the gardening. And then I realized, yeah, my grandmother lived literally 10 meters from her, so opposite. So I realized, yeah, she was probably always surrounded by people. And that's how she probably— or helped her living so long. And I think it's part of longevity as well. Social, be sociable and meet people and talk to people for real. has real benefits on life and mental health and physical health. This is proven.

And I think you actually mentioned the right word, real.

Yes.

Because if you think about if someone works in a company with 10,000 people, you would think there is enough interaction.

Right.

But the real is missing behind it.

You're right. You're absolutely right. Feeling—

I love it.

Sorry, please.

I love it.

I think you're right. I think you could— it's a good analogy, being in a company with 10,000 people, being in a concert surrounded by 80,000 people. You can still be in the middle of a concert and feel lonely, or alone, because you're not with the right— with the people you love around you. And you can still have this feeling. And I know people are feeling something like this sometimes. So it can touch anyone and everyone. And I think Loneliness should not be a taboo. I think we should talk about it. I think everyone—

You're doing a great job for it.

Oh, thanks. But I think we've all been lonely at one point in our life.

It

doesn't have to be lonely all the time, but it's normal. I used to travel a lot for business, and sometimes I was by myself eating dinner at a restaurant in a hotel. Of course, during dinner, it's the moment where you usually spend time with your family or your friend or your loved ones, where you feel more lonely than if you are At work, of course, working and doing something. So the moments are also— and they can be brief, but that can happen to anyone to be feeling lonely at one point.

Great. With that, I'm coming to my last question.

Okay.

If someone feels overwhelmed right now, what would you want them to return to Or to remember history.

So what do you mean by being overwhelmed? In what sense?

If you look at the world right

now,

it's quite easy to be overwhelmed with life, society, whatever is going on. You can speak to the senior or you can speak to the youngster. What is your message to them? What should they still remember is still true?

I think the simple things are true, the little moments. And I relate really much to what you said with your experience with seniors, just talking to each other, connecting with each other, going again to nature, what is real on the ground, you know, very simple things. Help us not being overwhelmed and again maybe push a bit those social media, those phones, those tablets. Again, it's of course important to be informed, but sometimes we get over-informed and that's where we can feel maybe overwhelmed by things. So slowing down also. So it was not someone from our community, but I saw a senior who was over 90 who was saying Slow down. That's what I want to teach the younger generation. And I think we can all learn that. It's important when we're under stress, overwhelmed, to slow down. So slow down and connect, I would say, with people for real. For real. That would be my message.

Beautiful. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for your time, Markus. Thank you so much.

This was Remembering the Forgotten. As you move on, notice what may have been quietly remembered. There are moments where you can feel the answer is already there, but you can't quite reach it. And then something shifts, and suddenly it's simple. No force, no second-guessing, no internal negotiation. Just a clear sense of what's next. And the capacity to move. If something shifted, let it stay. A few quiet pointers are waiting below.