The Power of Being More Interested Than Interesting – Markus Neukom

Welcome to the Exceptional Sales Leader Podcast with Darren Mitchell. If you're a sales leader looking to take your leadership to a whole new level, then this is the podcast for you. We'll be exploring tips, techniques, and strategies to help you take your leadership to the exceptional level and allow you to enjoy more money, more meaning, and better sales results. Welcome back to the Exceptional Sales Leader Podcast. This is Darren Mitchell on a, well, the first day of November where I am. But my guest who's from Zurich in Switzerland, although he happens to be in a different place in the world right now, but he's originally from Zurich, Mr. Markus Neukom. Welcome on the 31st of October, which is Halloween.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Darren. And where I am right now is Boston. So Halloween is a huge tradition here.

Yes.

But fortunately not in our house at the moment.

So does that mean you've, you've had to make sure that all your lights are off and nobody can, can answer the door when little kids knock on the door and do the trick and treat?

Pretty much like that. Yes. But we still have some candy in spare, you know, if someone sneaks into the house. Well,

it's funny, one of the benefits of where I live, we're on 2.5 acres. So they're not, there's not a lot of houses compressed together. So We're not that attractive for kids doing things like trick-or-treat, nor are we attractive for the door-to-door salesperson, which, by the way, in Australia is pretty illegal now. But because there's so many houses spread out, it's not worthy to come down the street.

It's a pretty similar situation now at the place we are. It's not like 2.5 acres, but it is widespread. And, you know, the brother-in-law where we're staying right now, he said no one will come because they don't find it. So it's funny.

Fantastic. So Markus, looking forward to this conversation. You've been in leadership for a long time. You're an executive coach, leadership strategist, advisor, and been running your business for a number of years, Markus Neukom International. Love to delve in. There's a lot of stuff I want to talk to you about, particularly things like operational leadership and being more strategic and getting away from the day-to-day stuff, but also things like imposter syndrome, which If I'm being honest, the workshops that I do with leaders, there is a constant theme that goes through that. I think most of us, if we're honest, do suffer from a little bit of imposter syndrome. So love to delve into that. Before we do though, always like to get a bit of background from the guest in terms of what got you into— I know you've got a background a little bit in sales as well, but what got you specifically into the sales area, but then more recently working with the leadership teams and executives that you do in what you do today. So always interested in delving into the people's background in terms of story.

Yeah, I'm happy to tell you, you know, the thing which probably many of our listeners can recognize, my dad was in sales,

right?

So as a little boy, I always observed his life and I just thought what Daddy is doing, that sounds interesting. He's meeting so many people. He has so many lunches and, you know, he makes some decent money. And I realized I am definitely his son because, you know, as we definitely both share, sales has a lot to do with natural talent. You can teach sales, but either you have it in you or you don't. And I was fortunate to have it. And I realized, Darren, that the number one thing, the number one success factor for me was loving people, being interested in people's lives, interested in people's stories. So I didn't actually go into sales until I decided to leave my corporate career for the first time and went on a European singing tour. So I wanted to become a singer. And when I returned, I reached out to a friend of mine who was head of one of these agencies of Zurich Insurance. And he said to me, you know, you'd be born to become an insurance sales agent. And, you know, if I had known what I really said yes to in terms of reputation, because for me, it was a reputable position to have. And that's when I landed in sales. And I remember there was one night where the sales director came to the office and he said, you know, Markus, one might think of you what they want. However, one thing I have to give you. Out of 10 times, 7 or 8 times you say, sir or madam, I'm so looking forward to getting to know you. How do you do that? We are so seasoned. We get a quota, 2 or 3 out of 10. And you as a newbie come and have 7 out or 8 out of 10. And I reflected for a moment and I said, you know what? I believe because I'm not selling.

Yeah.

I am interested in people. And you know how I got into leadership development was I basically just followed my intuition and I went from sales into HR. In HR, I realized I'm at the wrong place because I have to go back into operations. So I went into teaching and from teaching I was called. It was literally a calling from an organization from the US to become a senior vice president in an outplacement company. So we had a co-lead. And there I realized, gosh, executive coaching, coaching those people who got fired, who were made redundant. I was in charge of all the expats in Zurich at that time.

Yeah.

I just realized, gosh, that's what I really burned for. So basically everything that I had gone through and experienced prepared me for that one position. So this is a long answer for a short question.

No, it's a, and it's a really interesting, well, it's an interesting answer, but it's not, it's a legitimate background, which I find intriguing because I was speaking to somebody yesterday and saying that it's fascinating that how many people don't start out their career in the career that they eventually end up doing. So it's like stepping stones. And I often refer to the hero's journey that we're all on a hero's journey and everything we're doing is leading to the next step, but probably preparing us for the step 2, 3 ahead, 2, 3 steps ahead. And often you can only join the dots when you look back, as Steve Jobs used to always say. I just want to go back to one thing you mentioned with your sales director back at the insurance company. You said 7 out of 10, you're saying, I'm looking forward to getting to know you.

And

you said you didn't feel as if you were selling. I want to pick up on that because I think there's a lot of people in sales who believe their role is to sell. And yes, it is. You've got to hit a quota. You've got to make sure we're profitable as a business, et cetera, et cetera. And growth is expected. But did you feel in retrospect you had a different attitude towards that to the point where people felt— and look, when you said reputable in insurance, and maybe Zurich— In Zurich, there's more available.

It wasn't even in Zurich, I can tell you that much,

Darren. But I know my own experience. I dabbled in insurance many years ago and it wasn't a reputable

role.

But what was it about your approach to then selling? Was it the fact that you were there to help people? Was it there, you were actually there to build genuine relationships and from that the sale came? Or was there something that you look back on and think, you know what, I was different and that's why I was, I guess, more successful or had better cut through than my peers or my colleagues.

It's a very interesting question. I was just reflecting while I listened to you, Darren, and you might be familiar with the Asian way of doing business. On the first dinner, you do not speak about business at all and the business follows thereafter. when they like you and they trust you. And I would say it was very similar. Like, I just, I just saw the scenes. Like, I arrived, we had coffee, we had cake, we talked about life, they talked about them. And I believe one of the real talents I had, I had a knack for questions.

Mm-hmm.

Because I believe something really inherent was the curiosity to find out about the other person. For example, I signed the saying, everyone is someone, is a friend who I have not known yet.

Yeah.

So that's how I approach people. And then, and you see, I never learned how to create trust or how to build trust. It just came innately. And then suddenly I said, look, Why are we really here is to look at your insurance situation. So tell me more about your life. So of course, the wife sat often next to it. I saw children, I saw cars outside. So they started telling me about their life. And I said, look, I feel like this is really precious to you, what you have here. And my goal is I leave here if I feel you are insured ideally. I'm willing to leave here. I'm even willing, and I think that was one of my really, someone would say, a trick.

Yeah.

I am even willing to help you save premium money if I feel you are not ideally insured. I'm not going to sell you anything. I will listen to you. I will take stock of what you tell me. And then if you allow me to, then, or give permission, then I will show you what I personally would do if I'd be in your situation. Is that fair? And 9 out of 10, they said yes.

Yeah.

So that's pretty much what it was. I believe it had to do that they felt This guy is here for me and he's not trying to fill a sales quota with me because it would not work anyway.

And that's interesting because there are a lot of, and we talk in sales a lot about this concept of commission breath that people have commission breath. And sometimes that's conditioning that we're told as salespeople, hey, you need to always be looking at closing, closing, closing. But if you can build credibility and if you can build trust to the point where people, they like you, they trust you, they respect you, and they genuinely get the sense, and this is not a trick, but they genuinely get the sense that you're there to help them, then they're more likely to open up and potentially consider a solution to a problem they have. But it has to be authentic. And this is where you've got to be genuine about this and I'm interested to know, were there any times where you were saying that where you had the opportunity to demonstrate? And so that just enhanced your credibility because it's one thing to say that this is what I would do. This is my recommendation. And then when it gets to the pointy end, you've got to ask for the sale, right? You've got to get over that hump of the objection and so forth. And sometimes that's where it can become a little bit salesy for some. Were there times where you said, you know what, this is not the right solution for you, or this is what I'm suggesting. So you actually had to pack your bag up and leave because, hey, I can't help you.

So, you know, we had a portfolio as you have in insurance, as you know, and it was one of my duties to reach out to every client at least once a year. And I inherited an old portfolio from my predecessor. So this was this guy, Louis. He passed away a long time ago. So I reached out to him and I saw he's an artist, huge house overlooking the Lake of Zurich. I went there, he welcomed me hesitantly. He's one of those 9 out of 10. And he literally said to me when I got there, honestly, sir, I don't know why you're here. I don't need anything. And I said, you know what, let us look at your situation for a moment. And he was one of those guys, Darren, where I left with less premium than I came in. You know what I gained? A lifelong friend.

Yeah.

Yeah, a lifelong friend. And this is what I learned from my— and I have goosebumps, by the way, when I think back to that. This is what I learned from my mentors. This is what selling is all about, is relationship, literally relationship. He became, he became a friend in his early 70s. And I think he passed away in his mid-80s.

Yeah.

We had endless conversations. He said, Markus, Had you insisted on changing my policy just an iota, you'd have been gone. And I said, no, I know I left with less premium. And I even had to justify to my boss who's not the sales manager, but the boss, you know, who was basically my mentor. And he said, Markus, you did the right thing.

So your mentor said that, your boss said that.

I think

that's,

you know, he knew why he hired me. He did not hire me to fill a quota of salespeople. He knew he's getting a different animal here.

Well, that's a really interesting thing because doing, and sometimes you've got to do the right thing and the right thing is there might not be a benefit to you, but it is the right thing to do because it'll be a benefit to the other party or the other person. At that time though, how hard was it to go back to the office and explain it, knowing that you would have, you would have had sales targets, you would have had expectations placed upon you, and that would have potentially created a bit of a gap for you. How did you go about explaining that? And just talk me through, I guess, the attitude, because this leads into, I guess, leadership in terms of how a leader then deals with situations like that that can either make or break a salesperson pretty much.

Yeah. If you allow me, I'd like to extend my answer in terms of your, your question. So what happened was I was very fortunate that I was hired by my boss as a friend and as a mentor, as a mentee. Yeah. And I was not given sales goals.

So no, no quotas.

And I can tell you one thing, Darren, he did the right thing because I blew all the sales quota out of the water. So I started in private insurance and his plan, he was a visionary, crazy. He said, Markus, within a couple of months, I will move you into Mm-hmm. And I said, I'm all in. And the thing is, Darren, I did not believe that I had what it takes. I was in his office almost daily. His name was John. And I said, John, you know, I do not believe that I have what it takes, but believe because you do.

Yeah.

I do.

Yeah.

You see that beautiful relationship? So later, after 3 months, when I actually was promoted into SMEs, his boss, who was the regional sales director, was against it. And you know what my boss did? He said, I foot the bill from my own money because I know He will pass even if he's such a rookie. So I passed and then they made the biggest mistake, Darren. They gave me sales quota and sales quota killed my success.

And why do you say that?

Within a year. I'm a free spirit. As you ask me, how did it affect my sales? It affected my sales zero. Because I might have walked home with a little bit less money, but I was so elated about this meeting with this old man that the next day I walked into a company and I walked home with so much more money that I would have otherwise because I was flying. I was on air.

Yeah.

And then when they decided, they said, look, now we have to change your structure as well, Markus. We cannot leave you without a quote. And I remember I was like this, almost on my knees in his office. And I said, please, please, please do not make that mistake. He said, Markus, it's out of my hands.

Yeah,

because I said, when you put me under pressure, the whole easiness is gone. And it was gone.

So you put that down to, was that the implied pressure that you now had a target and that's where the focus was versus Without the target, you were there to actually truly serve. And through that, there was just a natural flow of premiums and quotas. You would have had some form of like indicative quota, but it wasn't a hard and fast, you have to get that target.

Exactly. And it has an additional component which I often see in sales. You know, I was a lot in sales even when I was a senior vice president. I reported to the country director. And to him, I said, this was my last employed position. And I said to him, look, do not make the failure, the mistake to do that what you want to do now. You give an annual goal. And yes, it's fine if you look at quarterly. But you are summoning us on a monthly basis. So on January, end of January, He made the mistake to judge us how we will perform by the end of December. And I said, you're killing everything you could just— whatever we've built, you just killed in an instant. And that was exactly the problem because, you know, I am all for quotas. And let's be honest, and, you know, I might be a little bit personal right now, but there are too many salespeople who do need goals. They do need quotas because they will not perform. So I am all for that. You know, I have my own salespeople and I give them quota and some I did not give them quota. It was necessary. So as soon as you have quota, you have control. And if you have someone who actually goes by the book, this just kills all creativity.

Hmm.

And that's what happened with me. You know, at the end of the week, how many meetings did you have? Not enough. No wonder, right? That's sales. Sadly.

It is.

Sadly. And by the way, I left shortly after that because I said I cannot do it.

Yeah. Interesting.

I cannot do it. I don't wanna kill my career for that.

And yet, and look, I do a lot of work in obviously in sales and sales teams and sales leaders. And interestingly, the numbers and the research is sort of backing this up. Is there something like, I think the latest research was that 45% of salespeople are making quota. 45%.

I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised.

And it's, there's this, and I know my own experience, there was this disconnect between the company would give you the big goal and the company would, because the board would say we need to reach this growth target, we're gonna put that out to the marketplace that then flows down, add a bit of mayonnaise on top of it. By the time it gets to us, we think, oh my God, how are we gonna do that? So literally it's what you did last year plus 10%, 15%, sometimes 50%. And I've always thought that there's a, there's a fine line between having sales quotas as an incentive or a motivational force and sales quotas that become a huge demotivator when you think, my God, if I look at my frame of reference as to what I did last year and what we did last year and look forward based on what we've got and then marry that up with the amount of effort that it took to get what we did last year. And now without any change in the structure of the business, no more resources, no new products or whatever the case might be.

It's about 10%.

Wow. Okay. And they say, well, that's sales. Like it. If you don't like it, go work somewhere else.

So you can tell none of those people has ever worked in sales.

Well,

you can be absolutely sure.

And those sales targets, yes, they're often written by people in finance or COOs or CEOs that have to make a promise to the market or promise to the board. But it's interesting then as a leader, and I know you now work with leaders in executive coaching, you do advisory and strategic leadership stuff. How do we, and how do you help leaders marry up, I guess, the expectation that we have to grow our business, we have to have a profitable, hopefully sustainably successful business, and the way to do that is to drive growth. The way to drive growth is obviously to sell. The way to sell, it's not product push, but it has to be problem solving, right? So how do we, and how do you today with all of your experience, being the free spirit that you are, how do you help advise leaders today on marrying, well, how do I get a team that's really free-flowing? They're there to serve their customers. They're there to build relationships because relationships will be profitable and get the numbers?

It's a very tricky question. And my answer might surprise you there. Often when I meet my prospective clients, I look at their metaphorical house. And quite often, It's crooked. So now I could say, okay, I'm an executive coach. Let's look at your sales quota. Let's look at, you know, whatever numbers, retention rate, whatever, right? And I could go and start working on the screws and fix that. This is probably what my experience taught me. If a house is crooked, it's usually not the house that's the problem. It's the foundation it stands on.

Yeah.

So the first thing what I'm doing is, you know, I basically have a 3-step in my LEAPS Leadership Program. What I say is, look, at first we look at the leader itself. And quite often it's where the problem lies. I'm a little bit cheeky. I say to my prospective clients, the goal is to create agile employees. Because I can tell you, if I would tell a tech entrepreneur that he is the problem, I'd be done. I'd be cooked. So I say it's the employee because we will create agile employees. So that's the first thing. Because, you know, my clients come to me and say, Markus, do I speak a different language? I say, yeah, you do. You speak tech and you speak entrepreneur and your employees and your stakeholders, they speak human. Then they first stop and then they start giggling because they understand what I mean.

Yeah.

Often those people have unlearned or never learned to speak human.

So

that's the leadership issue. The second one, which I actually believe in sales, it's much more prevalent. It's what is totally my pet peeve, Darren. It's war of talent and retention. You're familiar with ABC players, right? C players you should fire immediately. B players you should help to grow. And the A players are the ones that I'm interested in. Yeah. I was always an A player, like a wild horse. You had to give me guidelines left and right, but then you had to let me run.

Yeah.

And that is often the biggest problem. How many micromanagers are working as sales leaders? Some clients, I even say, look, my mid you know, my midterm vision is to remove you from your position and hire someone who does the leadership.

Yeah.

Because I can teach you speak and act human, but this will take way too long.

Yeah.

And that's when I often step in as the interim manager who actually does the war of talent part. Because you see, in sales, let's say You suddenly understand how to hire the right talent. The problem is they will leave you, and rightfully so, right?

Yep.

They're humans. They're humans. They have to be treated like humans. But at the same time, and I think this is the hardest part in leadership, Darin, to marry management with leadership. Honestly, I can't stand that new movement Everyone is a leader. No, if you're a leader, you, and you can't manage, you fail, especially in sales. You have to do both, right?

Absolutely. You have to.

So I helped him to hire the right people and I help him to keep the right people. So that often implies we have to get rid of some people. That's the C players.

Yeah.

Right. And the third one is team development, where it literally comes down to attitude in terms of the teams. You know it better than I do from sales. If you have an A-player and that A-player is not dealt fairly, because let's be honest, I was a total diva when I was in sales. I admit that.

Diva.

Total diva, a wild horse. I was, I was a racehorse. of the, honestly, of the highest quality. And I wanted to be treated as such, you know. So I help my clients and say, look, you have to learn how to deal with this diva. If you don't learn it, they will always be a stumbling block in your success, you know. So it's about the leadership in terms of helping the leader itself. It's about the war of talent and retention. And then it's about team development and make sure that the ambiance and everything is intact.

Love it.

That's what I usually do and that works.

Nice. So we'll talk about your LEAP process, but I do want to get to imposter syndrome as well. But before we jump into that, I want to ask you a question about imposter syndrome. So when you're working then with those types of leaders, because you mentioned quite rightly, that a great leader also has to have some really good capabilities around management. Because if you don't have things that you can measure, it's very difficult to manage. So you need to have that. But good managers don't automatically equal good leaders, and good leaders who can't manage are not necessarily good leaders. So you have to have both.

Right.

One of the questions that I'm always grappling with when I'm working with my clients is how to help a leader. I use that term in terms of a title. get away from, I guess, the external pressure or sometimes the self-imposed pressure to focus on the day-to-day stuff, the operational stuff that takes time and energy away from the strategic growth, right? So I understand you've got to have one eye on the current situation, how we're tracking, but also a good leader will look at what's happening in the next 30, 60, 90 days. So how do you as an executive coach in the world that you operate in help a leader I guess, separate or prioritize the things that need to happen, which I call the hygiene factors today, without micromanaging, but also enable to create the vision and encourage people to come on the journey. Because ultimately it's the leader that can set the vision and go the way and show the way that ultimately will override or oversee a sustainable team, a sustainably successful team. So how do you do that? How do you help a leader go from being Because sometimes leaders are thrust into leadership positions and they've been a great individual contributor and they know no different. So they get involved in the micromanagement day to day.

It's a loaded question.

A loaded question.

It really is because, you know, it's like if I would dissect it, you'd be shocked how much is in there, in that one question. I like it. You mentioned my leaps. um, leadership playbook. So what it really comes down to, it's the first, the L. L is leverage. And when I speak with prospective clients or with my current clients, Darren, I realize one thing. Leadership is totally underestimated. Hmm. Because you have a title, you can lead. And You know, if someone goes on my LinkedIn profile and goes into my posts, just my banner, think you lead? And I wanted to write think again, but it was a little bit too provocative for the banner picture. But that's actually what I do in my posts. So I'm very straightforward about that because what I wanna say is not, you know, I don't wanna, sorry, my French, I don't wanna piss off people. But I want to make sure that they understand, unless they understand exactly like sales is an art form, which is almost lost, to be honest. Leading is the exact same thing. Simply because you suddenly have a leadership position, it doesn't make you a leader. And you know, when people come to me and say, the key to leadership is having a service attitude and all these beautiful things. I say, sorry, I was a classical trained singer. Talent was a prerequisite. The exact same thing. Service orientation is a prerequisite for a leader or a salesperson. It's about the skill. It's about the craft, the art itself. So I say the most undervalued thing, Darren, is leverage. It's about maximizing resources and talents, which in the end will drive business. and leadership success. So instead of putting more money into training and everything else, they should realize, gosh, we have all the resources on board. I, as a leader, have to learn what it means to leverage that to the best of the company and the best of my people. And in the end, you know, my top line. So that's what it comes down to. When, you know, when I speak with my friends, you know, many of them went to MIT and Harvard and all these organizations. And I say, Markus, I wished we would have had a course which you actually talked about your Leap's Leadership Playbook.

Yeah.

Because just the leverage part itself is a game changer. And it's all attitude and mindset. Nothing else.

Yeah. So let's talk about that because we'll then delve into imposter syndrome. So the LEAPS playbook is the LEAPS leadership playbook, 4 steps, leverage your strengths. So, and I like the way you mentioned the attitude around, and this has to be a belief system that we do have the resources already within us, right? But the question I have to ask myself as a leader, Is, am I getting as much out of those resources as I possibly could be? So what's my utilization rate of my resources? Could we do things differently? Could we do things better? Which requires a leader to think differently, think outside the square, not just accept things as they appear to be. So are there any other elements within the leverage that I think would be pertinent as a leader, especially in 2024? In relation to, and I say this in that the market in Australia, for example, is quite challenging. There's not a lot of good talent that's out on the marketplace. And I remember talking to another mentor last week and he said, you know what, Darren, it's interesting that really high-performing salespeople and sales leaders are not actually on the marketplace. They're not in the market.

It's a fact.

It's the ones that are typically underperforming that are, right? Now, if people listen to this in the market, we're not talking about you, but it's a generalization. But are there other things to be conscious of that we could be leveraging that perhaps as leaders we're not at the moment or we're overlooking it?

Yeah, you totally speak to my heart, Darren. As I mentioned before, the second pillar in terms of pain points I work with is war for talent. and retention. So you mentioned the leaps and the 4th one, the partner has very much to do with leverage. You're familiar with networking, right? To your surprise, I hate networking because networking means I reach out to one person, to another, to another, to another, to another, and I amass a huge Rolodex of connections.

Yeah.

To what prevail? Nothing. I have 1,000, 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 connections. That's actually what LinkedIn looks like most of the times.

Yeah.

So if I have 5 minutes, I'd love to explain where that comes from, what comes from now. Do I have 5 minutes?

Yeah, absolutely.

Perfect. Okay. So imagine I was this managing director, senior vice president, as I mentioned in my last engaged position. And I had the task to organize enough connections for 100 high-level executives being fired in the next 12 months internationally. Doesn't sound much, right?

Good.

I've been teaching for almost 20 years and I lost all touch with economy worldwide. And I was very well connected before. So we invited managers who are fired to an apero. We were the hosts. And I freaked out, Darren, because I lost the art of speaking with people.

Right.

I was in a corner and my partner, female partner came to me and said, Markus, what's going on?

Yeah.

We have to host. It's the easiest thing in the world. They came for us.

Yeah.

Barbara, I can't do it anymore. I can't do it. So I left that night, went back home, went to my friend, and I said, Chris, I have a problem. I don't have any connections anymore, and I don't know how to make connections. He asked, how many do you have left? I said, 5.

5.

He said, yeah, Markus, you're screwed. So what happened then?

Screwed?

Yeah, you know, it was very straightforward. He didn't mince his words. So he said, Markus, let's do one thing. Send me one of those clients and I'll see what I can do. So I sent it to him. He called me back after that meeting and said, Markus, that was such an amazing time with this guy. So I thought, okay, let's see what the other guy says. The other guy calls me and he says, Markus, thank you so much for connecting me with Chris. And then it came. You wouldn't believe it, Markus. He already connected me with 3 people. And then I knew I struck gold. And that's when the Working the Net was born. Because Chris said to me, you know, let's sit together for half an hour and look at something together. Let's look at your 5 connections, your 4 next to me.

Yeah.

At that time, it was 20 years back. At that time, we looked at these 4 connections, including his, and we had more than 10,000 quality first-level connections. You can imagine second level and third level. So what we've done is I reached out to these 4 other people and these 5, Darren, made it possible for me to cater these 100 high-level clients with enough connections internationally. And that's when I knew, wow, I don't need to cater to 10,000 connections on LinkedIn. I have to make sure that these 5 are taken care of.

Yeah.

And that's how I worked.

Yeah.

And that's how I still work. I have 5 people. I'm very constant connection with. And they literally say, you know what, Markus, whatever you need, reach out to me because one of my connections has it. Same thing when I'm in Boston right now.

Yeah.

I reach out to someone and said, look, would you be willing to introduce me? He said, say the word. And that's what it comes down to when a sales manager or an entrepreneur understands that this is an art form. Of working the net, building trust. They will never have to worry about not having enough talents. They will never have to worry about that.

I like that because I was talking to another mentor a couple of weeks ago and we were talking about the number one role of a leader or sales leader in this case, and it was to recruit. And when we're saying recruiting, it wasn't necessarily recruiting for a position, but it's what you're talking about, building a network, building a trusted network that when the opportunity does arrive, you've got a ready-made group of people that not so much you can rely upon, but you can potentially talk about an opportunity if there's a match versus waiting for the opportunity to come up and then going, okay, who is available? And it almost like becomes a bit of a— A shopping thing, right? And that's what you see a lot of people do. And a lot of salespeople do the same thing.

Oh, absolutely. And you know, it's the same thing if someone is on a job hunt, right? Once they see the ad, it's already too late. I can always say, look, my sister, for example, I told her the biggest challenge for you is to build your network so you have it before you need it. That's just what it is.

Yeah. Yeah,

simply like build it before you need it. I think this is very much the key. And actually to acknowledge that it is not coming innately. Yeah, when I teach people working the net, they realize, gosh, Markus, you are speaking from a different planet. It is a different planet.

Yeah, but it's not, but it's, and look, there are people out there that love to have And they love to go after the vanity metrics, right? Whether it be on Facebook and even in some degrees LinkedIn, but you've got to build a connection, but the connection has to be relevant, right? There has to be, do we have something mutually in common? Otherwise, we've got a question. Well, right now I'm not quite sure there is anything in common. So why are we connecting? Now, apart from the fact you might be a nice person, that might be different. So if I have a conversation with somebody, for example, and we may be in different industries or different roles and there may not be anything obvious that would be in common from a business perspective, if they're a good person, I'm probably still gonna connect with them on LinkedIn 'cause it's just, hey, it's a good place to continue a conversation and to build some familiarity around. But there are a lot of people out there just, oh, I've got 50,000 connections here and— friend groups of ex, but do you actually know them?

That's the thing. You know, if I might interject something, what is so interesting is when we meet in person, we have all the 5 senses. Online takes 3, 2 away, at least. So we're left with 2 and a half senses. And people believe it became easier Goodness me. Like, honestly, every salesperson who's listening, learn the art of interacting with real human beings in real time because that's where the key is.

It is. It is. And it's a bit of a throwaway line, but it's so true. And it's people at the end of the day, irrespective of the technology, They still want to do business with people who they know, who they like, and who they trust.

Yes.

So the question is, are you a likable person? Are you respectful? Can you respect others? And can people trust you? Because if you don't have those, then you might have the best product on the place, in the planet, on the face of the earth, but nobody's gonna buy it because you're a dick.

I would love to share a secret. When I teach Working the Net, my first question is always this: who is the most important person when 2 people meet? You meet someone else. And I say, pledge and be honest. And 8 out of 10 have to say it's me.

Yeah.

And I say, yeah, that's the problem.

Yeah.

Do you remember when I told you how I did the 8 out of 10 quota, 7 out of 10? I was interested in the other person.

That's it.

And that's what creates trust.

That's it. And that's the differentiation. So if you are, if you are genuine, I think it was, was it Zig Ziglar or maybe Jim Rohn said, if you're genuinely interested in other people genuinely, and this is not faking it, you have to be genuinely interested in other people more times than not, you will then become interesting to those people because you make it about them. Not about you.

Absolutely true. Yeah. Could have from both.

Which, which leads us to imposter syndrome, which I know is a, is a huge thing and all of us have it to some degree, right? Um, what's, because I know you do a lot of work around this and I'm sure that the executives that you work with, particularly ones that have, as you were talking before, have been displaced. Um, a lot of them may have had egos dented and, and things have happened to them that they didn't expect, which only accentuates, I guess, this view of, you know what, I've now been found out. First of all, how big is it in your eyes? And what are some of the things to think about in terms of not overcoming it, but maybe handling it and being genuine about that?

So let me quote David Meltzer, who is a mentor of mine. And he's actually one of the biggest sports, sports guys in the US. I was on a call with him. And I first thought I misunderstood. Because he said, Markus, imposter syndrome is more prevalent than mummy issues. And a friend said, oh, he must have said money issues. So I went on the call with him later on and I asked him, David, what exactly did you say? He said, okay, let me say it like this, M-O-M-M-Y.

And

I understood because he said, Markus, you are onto something which will become such a huge problem in a very short time. Such a huge problem. And in the meantime, look at how many people speak and write about imposter syndrome. Almost everyone is jumping on that bandwagon because there's a reason why. However, the thing is, I wrote about imposter syndrome and some of my friends reached out to me and said, can I have a word? Okay. I recognize the symptoms, but I do not identify with imposter syndrome. That made me think, and I realized something. Imposter syndrome is pseudo. And I might shock some people what I'm going to say now, especially psychologists and doctors and all these specialties. Imposter syndrome is a symptom of something way more dangerous than they believe imposter syndrome is. Imposter syndrome is a symptom of an authenticity struggle, which comes from we have no bloody clue who we are. We have never learned to trust that what we do not know who we are. And that's why we go into this imposter syndrome.

Yeah.

Because you see, I went through a burnout during COVID and I can tell you, Darren, I did not trust anything anymore I knew, I read, and somebody else wrote about me because I was at the point where I said it can't be true. And I'm pretty sure many of our listeners actually feel the exact same way. Hmm. And that's when I realized, have I ever met a lazy person who had imposter syndrome? No, no, never. Have I ever met an underperformer who suffered from imposter syndrome? No, no. So it dawned on me that imposter syndrome is actually a compliment by the universe saying, Darren and Markus, you are onto something that's worth it. Push through instead of imposter syndrome.

Hmm.

And that's when I understood the problem is the word, is the term. Imagine I'm a psychiatrist. We meet each other, you tell me about your symptoms. And I say, Darren, you are suffering from imposter syndrome. Sorry, you're cooked.

Yeah.

You're screwed. You're screwed because doctors usually take different, um, you know, different ideas or symptoms, put them together because they do not understand it, and now it's a syndrome. So I can tell you, I really make myself enemies in terms of my posts on LinkedIn because I'm going against the grain.

Yeah.

I'm saying my specialty is not speaking about imposter syndrome. My specialty is debunking the concept of imposter syndrome. So I say, welcome what is called imposter syndrome and understand you're flying toward the stratosphere. And when it gets really hot, Say, thank you, universe, for sending me a task that's worthwhile and push through and push through. Because on the other side, you know, we have the authenticity struggle here. And when you push through the stratosphere, on the other side, what waits is authentic confidence. You feel the word, right? Authenticity and confidence. These 2 paired, unbeatable, unbeatable.

So when you look at that, so when I look at imposter syndrome, I look at it from a perspective of I'm almost pretending to some degree to be somebody that I authentically maybe deep down don't believe I am, or I'm trying to keep up appearances. So, and that for many people can be really challenging. But what we're saying is, hey, that's a label. If you can focus on who you are at your core, which means you need to probably do some work on who you are, right?

Yes.

What makes you tick, what you believe in, what you stand for, and then lead with that. Let others maybe label, but I'm not an imposter. I am who I am. I am who I am, and I happen to be doing this role. Others might say, well, that kind of doesn't fit, but that's okay. I'm doing it anyway because I'm pushing forward. So I love that. I love the description of authentic confidence because I reckon, certainly from a leader's point of view, ultimately that's what we want to be. We want to be an authentic leader to the point where I should be able to have the confidence to go into any environment and hold any conversation and know that I can hold my own because I have integrity, because I have authenticity, because I can build relationships and build trust and I don't have to pretend.

I'd like to add something which might really surprise you. The term imposter syndrome means despite of all the experience, despite of all the successes I had, I do not trust. That's what this imposter syndrome is all about, despite of all the successes I had. So guess what I have to do with my clients? I have to unearth their successes.

Yeah.

I have to unearth their wins.

Yeah.

And all I have to do is have to reiterate them, remind them, of it. That's all it takes. But if you believe in imposter syndrome as almost like a death sentence, and especially women, I meet so many women who say to me, Markus, I suffer from imposter syndrome. I said, yes, you do. And you won't get better.

Hmm.

You won't get better. Psychiatrists will love you as a patient because you won't get better. So understand, imposter syndrome is a symptom of the much bigger problem called authenticity struggle. And authenticity struggle is because you do not know yourself. You cannot trust yourself. How would you trust someone who you don't know, who you don't trust? No chance.

Hmm.

And I could tell you, I could tell you about so many different beautiful client experiences. Where someone from an ugly duckling, and that person was so successful, was confronted with a task, with a challenge. She did not believe she could do it. All I had to do is I had to remind her of the past experience and past successes. And sometimes I've even said, look, trust me because I believe in you.

Hmm.

And they thrived. Yeah, this debunking has to take place first.

Yeah.

And so we think they don't like me.

No. Well, because you're probably authentic. You

probably understand that imposter syndrome has become a huge industry.

Oh, it is. It is.

A lot of coaches make huge money with imposter syndrome.

Yeah,

huge money.

Yeah. So as we sort of bring this into a landing, I love something practical that you might use with a client to help them really tap into this authenticity, knowing self, right? And whether it be a process or some things that people can think about, because there'll be people listening to this that understand the concept of imposter syndrome and if they're really honest, have felt that at some Right? Like what you were talking about before in the being in the corner of that networking event, you maybe to some degree was feeling as if I don't belong here, right? I'm an imposter. What's going on, right?

Absolutely.

Had to leave the environment. So some things that we can either think about or start putting into practice that can help us delve into this authenticity struggle and turn that around and use it for good, not for evil, so we can thrive.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I believe what we have to learn at first, and that's something which actually happens pretty fast, we have to learn to reframe success. Yeah. You know, we talked about tracking the numbers before. We should look at the process instead of the results. You know, we should start becoming aware how our daily work actually looks like. And when you start breaking down a day, you suddenly realize, gosh, there are so many wins. And if you then do your work and say, what led to it?

Hmm.

Then you suddenly realize, gosh, I'm not that bad. You know, I've been able to do it before. I might be able to do it now.

Yeah.

And the second thing is, which I often recommend, is build peer support. You know, especially we guys, who reaches out to another man and says, you know what, Darren, I really feel like an imposter, right?

And

yeah, and I'd love to explain to you how I feel. No, most guys would not do it.

Yeah.

And then we suddenly find out, ta-da, everyone suffers from it.

That's it.

So talk about it, talk about it. And what I always love about peer support is find someone who you trust, and then build a kind of an accountability system in it. Because quite often when I am actually hit by imposter syndrome, I say to a buddy of mine, you know what, please hold me accountable because I have to follow through to push through the stratosphere. Total. And the third one, and that's probably something that might shock some people, build resilience. Build resilience, especially in sales. Goodness me, we have the constant pressure for results, this frequent rejection. action thing. There's a high visibility, you know, you're basically in the limelight all the time, right?

Yeah.

So that's why I'm saying it is so important that we learn to build resilience. And believe me, no one is born resilient. No one. And actually, the one thing which might surprise you is learn meditating. When I'm asked what helped you mostly during COVID and your burnout, which basically is the depression, it was me to learn to meditate.

Okay.

Or mindfulness, whatever it is.

Yeah.

Because, you know, resilience comes from you inside.

Yeah.

Nothing you can gain or buy from outside.

No, no. And through meditation, through mindfulness, you start to Learn more about yourself and tap into your innermost resources that are always there. They're always there. But it's the belief. It's a belief system.

Yes. Yes. And don't see yourself as an oak tree because, you know, many men want to be an oak tree. I say, learn to become nimble and bendable as a bamboo.

Yeah.

Because bamboo will never break as much as you bend it. It always comes back.

Yeah.

So it's the flexibility. And actually, we have so much to learn from the Eastern world in the West. Mm-hmm. You know, like, there's one beautiful thing, and I'd like to end my answer here. It's the word responsibility. Here in the West, it's something really heavy. You know, shoulder responsibility.

Yeah.

In the Asian world or in the Eastern world, it's different. It's the ability to respond. And if a salesperson understands that and develops that attitude, I have the ability to respond to anything.

Yeah.

It makes it so much easier and so much lighter.

Absolutely.

And that— Admit you have a problem. That's the biggest issue for people. That's where it starts. That's where you start. You probably realize I don't mince my words so much and you can imagine how I talk with my clients. Yeah. But that's what they need and that's what they love.

Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Awesome. Hey, love this conversation. We've gone in different, lots of different directions, but it's been, it's been a really enjoyable conversation. I think there's a lot of, a lot of golden nuggets throughout that. So Markus, for people that are listening that like to know more about you, And connect with you. Where's the best place for them to do that? How can we connect? Okay.

So, so the best place to connect with me is definitely on LinkedIn because you know I'm there on a daily basis. If you're interested in learning more about imposter syndrome and how to deal with that, especially debunking my LinkedIn feed is the best thing. It's very simple. It's my first name. It's M A R K U S. N-E-U-K-O-M. And I'm sure you will share the details with the viewer and listener as well. So please just come on LinkedIn, reach out to me, send me a direct message. And I'm very happy to have a conversation with anyone who's interested to learn more.

Nice. Brilliant. Love it. So as we bring this to a close, as, because I know it's probably, what is it now? Late evening Quarter past 7 PM. Quarter past 7 PM. So it's, it's, it's dinner time, or as we say in Australia, beer o'clock.

Beer o'clock. I love that.

If there was, if there was one—

There's always beer o'clock somewhere in the world, right?

It certainly is, Markus. That's the beauty. Absolutely. Absolutely. So if there's one parting, parting piece of guidance or wisdom that you'd like to leave people, whether it be around imposter syndrome or, you know, taking the leap through the stratosphere or being a better leader for your team, whether it be in sales or in operations or whatever, what would that be, particularly as we come closer to the end of the year?

I really want to quote once again David Meltzer because he taught me so much and it's so simple. Be more interested than interesting. It sums it up.

Yeah, love it. Love it. And I personally believe that if that can become a mantra for you, that if, and when I say you, as in you listening to this, then just watch what's gonna happen, right? Not just in terms of your influence, Not just in terms of your sales numbers, but just in terms of your overall relationships with people. Because

I gotta say, even with someone more about imposter syndrome, and this is coming from my, from my spiritual guru, this too shall pass. Whatever happens, nothing will stay. This too shall pass.

It will. Absolutely. So Markus, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for jumping on. I'm glad we did this because we were gonna do this about a week ago, but somebody lost their voice. So it's been terrific.

It's back.

It is back. It is back. And really enjoyed this conversation. So thanks once again for being a guest on the Exceptional Sales Leader Podcast. Thank you for listening to the Exceptional Sales Letter Podcast. I trust the information in this episode has been helpful in your journey towards becoming exceptional. And remember, please take the time to rate the show, subscribe to the show so other people can find it, but also if I can help you, jump on my calendar, go to leadwithdarrin.com, and let's have a conversation about how I can help you along your journey to being exceptional. Thank you.