Marshall Allen, "Never Pay the First Bill' Part 2 | The Ovation Show w/ Dan Labroad

Foreign.

Welcome back to part two of Never Paint the First Bill with Marshall Allen. We are excited. We've got Marshall Allen in the studio today, the author of Never Pay the First Bill. And we are discussing the healthcare crisis in America. And we just spent the first half talking about really the employer side. I mean, the overall problem that we're all facing in healthcare billing and spending and pricing. We talk about the employer solutions and working within employer groups. But Marshall, your book really also is a guidebook for how the consumer can deal with these, the bills, the balance billing, the out of network billing, or for people that don't have insurance when they get these exorbitant bills. And we know one of the leading causes of bankruptcy in the United States is medical bills.

Yes.

And so your book, and I know, I watch, I mean, I see all the posts on LinkedIn, Facebook, Amazon, the reviews of. I've read it, it was great. But the people that read your book are using it.

Yeah. So this has been probably the most satisfying thing about writing the book for me in the few months since it's come out. You know, I wrote the as a how to guide for basically hacking the healthcare system. And it's for consumers primarily, but also for employers, as we've discussed. And so I love the reviews on Amazon. So just let me, let me just read you a couple because this is to me the most fun and fulfilling part, because I compare the healthcare system in the book to a bully, you know, a bully that's been pushing you around on the playground and you've been kind of afraid of and you've been running from. But my point in the book is we need to stand up to the bully. And I show how to do it in each chapter in the book. So I love this review. This is from a reader named Hope, which I think is an appropriate name. Right. And Hope says, wow, did this book help. I would have never considered trying to challenge a bill from a doctor or hospital. But when I went in for blood tests and saw they charged $1,350 for one blood test, I remembered what I read in the book and went after them. I love it. Hope is going after them. Bottom line, the charge was removed and I saved $1,350. Amazing. Thank you. Blows my mind. Thirteen hundred and fifty dollars savings because Hope pushed back on a ridiculous charge for a blood test. Here's another one. Kathy H. McDonald saved my mom $1,500 using the advice in this book. I used a sample letter in this book to challenge a $1,500 medical bill my mom received. It worked. Turns out there was an issue with insurance and the whole amount got paid by her insurance company. She owed nothing. Lots of helpful info in this book. Again, very satisfying for a reader to save $1,500. You know, previously, you know, when people get a bill, they assume that they just owe it. They assume that they have to pay it. And what I've learned through investigating this system is that this is filled with errors. The billing system, the claims processing system, they are processing millions of claims a year, sometimes on it. Systems that were built like in the 1970s. And the system does not keep up with the complex of the pricing and the billing. Discounts don't get applied. Right. Nobody checks to see if charges all were for things that actually happened or that even claims were sent to an insurance plan before it was sent to a patient. And so what I tell people is assume that your medical bill is wrong before you assume that it's right. And when I say in the title, never pay the first bill, I don't mean never pay your bills. I mean we should obviously pay for services that we've received. But the principle is never pay the first bill until you have checked to make sure it's accurate and to make sure that it's fairly priced. Here's another one. This is probably the most dramatic one.

This book saved my family $70,000 in medical bills. And she puts a picture of her bill here where the total charges were $78,612. And now the balance due on the account is zero. This book and the author are the real deal. My family was near financial ruin when we found out our insurance denied my procedure and the hospital tried to us with a $78,000 bill. We were told by both the hospital and our insurance that we didn't qualify for any assistance. Thanks to Marshall and the information in this book, we're able to push back against the hospital and the insurance company in an informed way that made them realize that they had to do something to fix this. We ultimately came out owing nothing. So this is actually a reader who emailed me while I was writing the book. And her name is Alexia Kal. And while I was reading the book, the book wasn't published yet, but I started helping her navigate this system where her care had been denied by her insurance plan. And I have a chapter in the book about what do you do when your insurance plan has wrongfully denied you the care that you need? It's an extremely common occurrence. In fact, different States put out data on the rate of insurance company denials. Some insurance companies are denying up to 30% of, of the initial claims that get submitted. And now, you know, they can say the hospital didn't code it right or the doctor didn't code it right. There's two sides to the story, right? But the point is there is so much ridiculous complexity. Think about every doctor, every insurance plan, excuse me, every doctor or hospital has to deal with hundreds of insurance plans, all of them with different rules, all of them with different prices. This is a complete mess. And so the people who end up paying the price are the employer sponsored plans and the working Americans who are covered under these plans or people who are uninsured. And so that's just a few of them. I mean, I encourage people to go on my Amazon, look up the book. And the point I like to make is the return on investment is great. Buy the book right. It's priced on Amazon now for under $16. It's Christmas time, it's the holiday season. Buy it for your loved ones. Stocking stuffers, let's go. Stocking stuffers, let's go, folks. But I mean I. And so I am, obviously I'm promoting the book. But the thing that makes me so satisfied, you know, I spent all of these years investigating the industry, I spent all of this time writing the book. What makes me most satisfied is seeing it pay off. Where people save huge amounts of money on their health care. And by the way, when individuals save, their health plan saves exponentially more, the more people are equipped and educated and empowered frankly to push back.

Well, I think the book is great because it is bringing that power back to the regular consumer, the regular person, the regular consumer. I look at my own situation. Back a few years ago, my wife got a, we got a bill in the mail from, I think it was LabQuest or LabCorp or whoever, somebody. And it was like $1300 for some labs. My wife just went in to get a physical. Her doctor ordered a bunch of labs.

No way.

Yeah, we get a bill for $1300. Now I'm, I'm like Liam Neeson and taken. I got a unique set of skills. And so I get this and I'm like, this is crap. So I call LabCorp, I call LabQuest or whoever it was and I look him up. I said, okay, walk me through. I need the procedure codes on each of these.

There you go.

Like, huh? Okay, so give me the codes. I call over, a buddy of mine said, hey, can you run these through your system? And Tell me what the Medicare rate are on all these.

Yep.

I gotta build 1300. Add up the Medicare rates. $98.

98 bucks.

They're billing me 1300 for $98 on labs number one. We didn't even order. And so. So then I called them. They're like, well, we can't do anything. We ran it through your insurance. This is what it is. We can't do anything. I'm like, well, this is crap. I'm not paying it. So then we call. We end up calling her doctor, talk to the doctor. Doctor's like, well, this is what we did. And we were gonna run all these things. I said, okay, but you have to understand. And I cock the pricing. I went back and forth with LabCorp or whoever it was. Again, I'm gonna say, whoever is the lab and.

Battling with them. Not going. A couple months went by. Keep battling. Finally, I get a VP of the lab company on the phone and I say, okay. She goes, okay, hold on, I understand. I said, just back it out of the insurance and I'll pay the cost for it. Yeah, well, I don't think you can do that. Let me find out. She said, okay, well, here's what we're gonna do. And she. And this is going on for months, but I've wore them down. She comes back and says, we're going to go ahead and back out of the insurance like it never happened. We're going to bill your doctor for it, and the doctor is going to bill you. Okay, so what ends happening is they bill the doctor their standard rate, which is like a little bit more. They made profit. It was like less than $200.

Yeah.

And so we told the doctor and said, okay, now we'll pay the 200. I said, we're willing to pay the 200. The doctor says, well, you guys didn't order the last, so I'm just going to eat it. We end up with nothing.

Okay, right.

So 1300 and nothing in about three months. But it was a battle. But I knew I knew what I'm doing because. And I knew the watch you were doing.

Right? And so in the book, I show people, here's how you get an itemized bill. Here's how you look up the billing codes. Here's how you find what the fair prices are. Here's how you find the Medicare prices, because those are publicly available. And then here's how you push back. And in this case, the way to push back, the ultimate end game for the consumer. If you're really gonna fight this and sometimes, believe me, 1300 bucks. 40% of Americans, according to the Federal Reserve, don't have more than $400 in their savings account. So for me, I could handle a 1,300 DOL. For you, you could probably handle a $1300 bill. So we're fighting for our money still. It's still valuable money, right? But a lot of people don't even have that in the bank. So for them, this is medical debt. This is medical debt that could get sent to collections. And so if they don't fight for this, their financial future is really at stake in a really serious way. So I show people how to do this and what I'm showing them the path I'm taking them on. Get your medical records, see how they document it, get the itemized medical bill with the billing codes, price it so you can see how much you've been overcharged. Right now I'm showing them how to gather all the evidence that they need to sue in small claims court. So when you sue in small claims court, you completely change the game on these price gougers. I'm telling you. Like now here we are in Texas, right? The small claims court limit in Texas is $20,000. That's enough to cover any surprise medical bill for just your general type of care. Okay? Just an episodic type of care that's going to pretty much cover a lot of medical bills. So imagine now you sue in small claims court if they refused to negotiate and refuse to take care of it. Well now all of a sudden they make the rules for themselves with their crazy billing departments and I don't know if we can back it out. Well, of course you can back it out. You can do whatever you want. They're allowed to back it out. They can give the insurance company their money back. It happens all the. But if they refuse to do it, well, now you sue them in small claims court. Now they have to show up in front of a judge and explain why they're price gouging you. Now they have to probably hire an attorney as a patient. When you sue in small claims court, you don't have to have an attorney. And I've shown you how to gather all the evidence you need. So all you have to do is file your case, pay like $30 and file your case. Now that lab is going to have to hire an attorney for hundreds of dollars an hour to defend themselves against a case that's only for 1300 bucks. It gives them the incentive they need to come to the table and do the Right thing. And that's what I try. The way I try and frame it is there's nothing personal here, but if you're going to price gouge someone and threaten to send them into medical debt or send them to collections for these bills, well, God bless America. But we have a court system in this country, the small claims court system that allows individual consumers to be protected against powerful corporations and powerful individuals who are preying on us. We would do it with any other consumer transaction. So let's do it with health care. And so I've documented a lot of cases in the book. I have sample letters people can use, warning letters, 30 day warnings to send. Before you file a case in small claims court, I show you how to do it. I document cases of people who are doing it successfully and I'm helping people do it myself now. So I always tell people like, sign up on my website for my newsletter. MarshallAllen.com is my website. You can also message me there. And if people need help, I would love to help them. I will walk them through the process. So I have several people I'm doing this with right now. And so we're not powerless, we're not helpless. And so in your case, you had the tenacity and the knowledge to keep pursuing it. That's the same type of empowerment I'm trying to provide to everybody patient in the country.

Well, that's why when we talk to employees of our employer clients, we teach them the same thing. We say, here's what I would do, here's how I would handle it and we'll help them along the way. A lot of times we end up doing some of it for them, but we have, we have to get them involved too, so they understand. And usually they're like, oh, I didn't know I could do that. I didn't know that's how this worked. So again, having that, that knowledge is power.

Yes.

But you know, it's funny, you talk about price gouging. Another example, this couple years ago, we had an employer, we have an employee there, back issues. So we get this bill for $130,000.

Wow.

And I'm going, all right, hold on, we gotta look at this out of network, top it off. So we look at it, 130,000 run the code said, okay, I see these, I'm like. And I'm thinking it was a spinal thing. And I'm going, okay, did he get like a titanium rod in his back?

Right.

So I called, I called the employee.

Said, hey, what procedures were done here?

We have $130,000 bill. And he's like, oh, I just had a couple injections in my spine. Like four injections. I go, how long are we there? Oh, an hour. I'm like, well, they sent us a bill for130,000 to your, your boss, to your company. And he's like, nah, that had to be. They must accidentally hit a couple extra zeros, whatever. So I'm like, well, maybe that could happen. Let's find out. I call the, the, the facility. And I went and had permission. I had him on the phone. I got, I put the HIPAA stuff in. And they said, okay, yeah, we'll talk about the bill. No, no, that's, that's what we built the charges. I said, but he only had a few injections. Yeah, it's 130,000. I said, and I'd already looked at the codes. I said, this is $980 worth of procedures with Medicare. I said, how can you justify $130,000 to it for a thousand dollars? And they said, well, we bill whatever we want and we take what the employer, what the insurance gives us. And I'm like, well, this is ridiculous. And the problem was the TPA had negotiated 130 down to 75,000. And they were so happy. And I'm like, no. I said, we will offer them $2,000.

Yes.

And I said, and then we will stick with that. So anyways, fast forward talking about the litigation. They came on, they kept hounding us for the money. I said, okay, here's what's going to happen. You, can you cash 2,000? We're not paying the other 128 said, if you'd like to go to court over this, we're more than happy to go with you. I said, because we will show if you really want to see how the judge or the jury reacts when I show them that this is what Medicare pays for this right, and what you're charging it won't end up well for you.

Right?

And the best part of this place was. I'm not going to say the whole name, but the first word in the title of this center was integrity.

Oh, my gosh. You know, this is. There's a term in sociology they call the normalization of deviance. And it's this idea that what is wrong has become normalized. Deviant behavior has become the norm, and that has infected our healthcare system with the way things are priced and the way things are practiced, frankly. And as patients, you assume that this is a competent system. Because your doctor is competent, your nurse is competent. Well, they're licensed and trained and regulated, actually. But on the billing side, at least this integrity.

Billing person had the integrity to say the truth, which is that they can pretty much do whatever they want. And that's completely outrageous because, again, it's. It's not illegal to bill that way. It's unethical and it's immoral, but it is not illegal. And that's why, like, again, I think one way my book is unique is I am making a moral and ethical argument in the book. And when we make that moral argument, we actually have a lot of moral force when we know that we're in the right. It is wrong to bill $130,000 for a $1,000 service. That is wrong. I'm not afraid to stand here and say it's morally wrong. It's corrupt. It's not illegal. Well, might be illegal, actually.

That's pretty crazy. But we have come to accept what's wrong is right in healthcare. And as patients, we have been too trusting. We've assumed that the system is on our side because our doctors are trying to help us. Well, what we don't realize is the billing department. They're trying to help themselves. Yeah, they're feasting on us, and it's really causing a great amount of harm.

Well, like in that case, you know, it was the actual center that's doing all the billing. And so they're the ones actually. Unethical, immoral. Yeah, they're the ones trying to take advantage of everybody. But then a lot of times we go to a provider, it's not the providers that are bad. It's actually. It is the billing company. And I know. I've got friends that own physician offices. And all billing runs to a billing company. They negotiate and handle the contracts with all the carriers. They're the ones doing the billing. They're the ones setting out the bills. You go to a doctor and say, I'm getting all these notices. Well, I know nothing about that. You're gonna have to contact the billing company. So really, as you said, it's a lot of times it's that billing company that's the issue. It's not the doctor. They're just taking whatever's put in their bank account each month and paying their bills. They're not looking at that. And that's why, when you get a bill, it doesn't say that you have the doctor's name on it, but it always is. Contact this billing company. Contact these people. So I mean, your book, again, gave the step by step instructions. It's because, I mean, it's just. It's flying off the shelves. In fact, I. Your book had just come out and talk about, you know, just. This happens to everybody. My son was getting his scuba diver lessons. We're at the lake and he's. He's out diving, getting certified. I'm just sitting there waiting for eight hours in the heat.

Yeah.

And I'm reading your book at the time. It just got it that week that just come out. And I'm talking to this retired military person who's. He's on Tricare Virginia. And so he asked what I did and he saw the book. I said, well, this is what I do. And he said, man, that's crazy. My wife, she had all these hospital things go on, and we've got this huge bill. And he goes, you know, and it was out of network. It wasn't. We didn't know it was out of the VA's network. Out of the VA, whatever. I can't remember the whole story, but he had these huge bills. He's like, I don't have that kind of money. I'm trying to figure out what to do. And so I said, well, first you need. Here's my email. Here's my card. Get hold of me if you need anything. I'll be happy to help you. I sent him a template of a letter that he could send to start with.

Yeah.

And I fold that book up and I said, take this copy of my book.

Wow.

And he took it. And then I did get an email from him later on saying that he did it. It was still in negotiation, but they stopped collections on him. He was working it out.

Awesome.

But that was within the first week of getting your book. And I mean, it helped somebody immediately.

That's awesome. Well, I compare this to the pandemic. You know, the pandemic is this phenomenon that everybody is experiencing at the same time. And we've never had anything like that in the history. Well, maybe we have, but not in my lifetime. In our country.

Our affliction of high health care costs is something like the pandemic. It is literally afflicting every American family. In a very similar way. Working Americans in particular. Working Americans are getting hit the hardest. They're the ones that are being driven into debt the most. It's not people who are low income. They're covered by Medicaid. Thankfully, it's not older Americans because they're covered by Medicare. And generally speaking, people are pretty happy with their Medicare coverage. But it is discrimination against the working people of the United States of America. We are being required to pay way more than anyone else is and the prices are completely unjustified. They're whatever they want the prices to be. And who would think that they need to defend themselves in this way? I wished that I didn't have to write this book, but unfortunately the book is something that is relevant to all working Americans and I'm really thankful. I mean I appreciate you giving the guy the book and hopefully it helped him, but this is something that we all need to get on board with. And here's the thing, we have so much more power than we think. And so I sometimes think, you know, like it's like a David and Goliath battle. You know, where David was the little shepherd boy up against the giant Goliath. And how can David ever beat Goliath? Well in this case, Goliath is like this massive healthcare industry. You know, hospitals, insurance companies, PBMs, drug companies, all of them creating schemes to jack up the prices higher and higher. And who are we as little patients who don't know anything about medicine or don't know how to do medical billing? Who are we to push back against this industry? The difference here though is there are actually about 180 million Davids in this scenario. There are 180 million Americans covered by employer sponsored plans or uninsured so their self pay. And if just 1% of us were to take action and push back, that would be about 2 million people demanding an itemized bill, suing in small claims court when we get a surprise bill we can make it so inconvenient for them, we can make it so expensive for them frankly to continue this process that we can overwhelm them with our numbers. And so that's what I'm trying to do is empower.

The consumers, the employees, the patients of the United States so that they can understand, oh wait, we do have leverage. Here's where we have leverage. And so even if people aren't the type who are maybe as confrontational as I might be or you might be to stick up for ourselves, or maybe they're working two or three jobs and they're not really able to take the time to fight where they need to, if those of us who had the time, the knowledge and the disposition to fight this got informed and then pushed back together, we'd be standing up for ourselves and we'd also be standing up for all of those people who are unable to stand up for themselves. And I think that would lead to a real reformation in our healthcare and the employers again are a huge part of it. It's employers and employees working together and we could transform this system.

Well, I agree and I think you're saying starting with the employers. You know, 80% of America gets their health insurance through their employer.

Right.

So it does. If you start with the employer and if the employer can make these changes and start battling the system, it will trickle down to the employees. You train the employees, you talk to the employees, tell them what you're doing, tell them why you're doing these different things and I think they'll learn from it. You know, reference based pricing is a big one. I think the healthcare system is going that way. Now, granted the buca's and they're going to battle this because that they make money out of the network and healthcare services. And even in Dallas Fort Worth we have hospital systems that don't like reference based pricing. Sure, it reduces what they're making, but if enough employers start doing it, the healthcare systems are going to have to take notice of it.

Right.

They're going to have to start saying, okay, yeah, we'll accept that, we'll work that way.

Right.

But again, it does start with the employer. I think, I think they have to be humble and I think they have to take some fiduciary responsibility that they may not have before because, not because they didn't want to, they just didn't know that they really should and then let it trigger down the employees. So, you know, we talk about that and you know, some closing notes really want to focus on again, the consumer and the employee. So ending this out and rounding it out, what are you, I guess somebody has a bill besides first buy your book so you have it. It'd be great to have on your bookshelf. So if something comes up. But what, what would A couple steps. What do you think that they should do first thing, if they get a bill, what are the, what are the.

Number one, get an itemized bill. Make sure that that bill lays out every single charge for the total that it's come to. Always get an itemized bill and make sure that you also get the billing codes. And if it's a hospital and they're giving you trouble about giving you the billing codes, you can call if you're insured, call your insurance plan. When you call that customer service number, they can tell you the claims that have come in. They can tell you the billing codes that were used. So once you have those billing codes Just Google them, you know, look them up online and see does that code. It's usually a five digit CPT code, common procedural terminology.

Look up that five digit code and see does it accurately describe the service that I received. Often they don't. They do what's called upcoding, you know, where they, they bill a higher level of service than what was actually performed in order to get a larger payment. And again, a lot of times it's these billing companies that are juicing the codes beyond what they should be. That's actually fraudulent, but it's extremely common. So look up the billing codes, see if they describe accurately the services you received and then make sure that they are priced fairly. So again, you can go on hospital websites now and check prices. So even if the hospital you went to isn't showing their prices, look at neighboring hospitals in your town. Look up other pricing tools like FairHealthConsumer.org is a website that aggregates all the average insurance company paid prices for different services in different zip codes around the country. FairHealthConsumer.org Type the billing code in there, type in the type of service you got there. See how the price you were billed compares to what the average amount paid by insurance companies is. Maybe it's a fair price. So you go, oh, it's fair, I'll pay it. You know, I owe it, I'll pay it. If you're insured, another really key thing is make sure that your insurance plan has processed that bill before you pay it. I got a bill I write about in the book a couple years ago for my son's visit to an urgent care. They sent me a bill for $250. I looked at the bill and it showed that the insurance plan hadn't paid anything. Well, I knew I had a really expensive insurance plan that should have covered that bill. So I called the insurance company and sure enough, they hadn't even received the claim. So I was able to tell the urgent care center, send the bill to the insurance plan, don't send it to me. They did that and bam, $250 saved in about five minutes. That was a really easy one. So pay your bills off of the explanation of benefits that you get from your insurance plan. Don't you know you're going to get all this stuff in the mail? This is another reason for the never pay the first bill title. You're going to get buried in all these bills. Wait until your insurance plan has processed it, then take a look and see. Okay, did this get processed correctly? And did it get run through my plan if you need to. I also show people how to get your medical records. So the records, there's a saying in healthcare, if it's not documented, it didn't happen. It has to be documented by law in the records. And so the records, see how they've translated what the records show with what you got billed for. Because if there are things that you got billed for that don't show up in the records, you shouldn't be paying them for those items. So there's a lot of ways. And again, I showed how to contest. You know, you showed one way to contest. Go to the billing department, be tenacious, don't give up. Another principle in healthcare is that everything is negotiable. Remember, they're making up whatever price they want at the beginning. So you know what, it's a negotiation. I'm not going to pay your made up price. We're going to negotiate a price that's fair and that works well for both of us. And we're going to come to an agreement for a fair price and I'm going to stick to my gun. So it does take some tenacity a lot of times. And again, small claims court I think is the last resort. That won't help you with $130,000 bill, but it'll help you for many bills. And also get your advisor or your broker involved. Brokers and advisors have a relationship with the insurance carrier. They can often help navigate these things. So get your advisor involved. They're worth their weight in gold and they can be a tremendous help to resolve these problems if they become unresolvable.

I, like we said, look at the EOB because we do, we get claims or we get calls from employees saying I've got this bill, I thought it was covered. And we see two things. One, insurance carriers can sometimes take a while to pay. It could be 30, 60, 90 days. Meanwhile, the vendor, the provider, they haven't gotten paid yet. So they're sending you the bill because they didn't get paid yet, even though they filed it. So it was like, no, just wait, it will paid, let them know it's coming. The other side of it is we see a lot of times where they didn't bill it to the right insurance company.

Interesting.

And so like for instance with self funded plans, primarily you'll have the TPA which is where all the billing goes through and you might have a network involved. Cigna blue cross, you have the logo up there. Well, the office is just looking to go oh, they got Cigna and they bill Cigna. Well, you don't bill Cigna. You have to build a tpa. So we go in and look and we're able to say, you know, the TPA never received a claim for this.

Wow.

It was never. It was never even put in the claim. They probably sent it to Cigna, not the TPA. Sure enough, that's what happens. And I would say 90% of those get solved again at no cost. It's just they were the billing office sent to the wrong place.

Yeah, but again, the patient needs to be engaged. Right. You have to actually engage in the process. You can't be passive anymore.

Right.

I compare this form of healthcare, financial literacy. Sometimes, you know, people think like, well, that sounds really hard. You know, I don't really want to do that. How am I supposed to. To figure all this out? And I always tell people, like, remember back when you got your first checking account? You know, maybe you were a teenager or you were a young adult, you got that first bank statement and you were looking at these, you know, these. You had to balance your checkbook even, you know, back in the day when you had the check ledger, you know, which I guess, I guess I don't. I don't write many checks these days, but we still do write checks. But you had to learn then how to balance your checkbook, how to look at your financial statements for your bank account, because you knew if you didn't, you would not be protecting your money. You could easily lose money to hidden fees, to erroneous charges. Our credit cards, we have to look at those statements. Those are things as a young person, you learn and you grow and you develop a skill for it. Well, in health care pricing, you could be charged multiple amounts of what you have in your bank account for a particular service. It's all the more important in healthcare to learn these skills, develop these skills and practices, make them a habit. And I promise it's not as complicated as people think, and the book shows you how to do it. But you do have to change. You do have to grow. But when you do, there is a massive payoff waiting, and that's in the form of saving a lot of money on your healthcare.

That's a great way to close it. We're saving money, taking control, and just doing things that really the right way and being accountable and making other people accountable for what they're billing and sending us. So with that, you know, we do want to close out. First of all, thanks for being here.

My pleasure. It's an honor.

And I mean anyone else. That too. If you're looking at this, we'll put the link up later on. He was just on ZDoggMD and if anyone, most people probably know who he is, but he is an idol of mine. I was so excited when I saw you on there. So we'll put that link up so you can watch them on Zdogg but get a copy of Never Pay the First Bill. We'll put the link up for that. Check out Marshall's website, marshallallen.com Next year he'll have the training site for employers and the consumer to be able to watch videos, have access and then also, you know, our book is now released and life and death decisions of the C suite for employers that are trying to make changes just like Marshall is doing for everybody. Everybody. So again, appreciate you being here.

Thank you.

Thanks. And let's get out here and get some dinner.

Yeah, that's fun. Thank you.

I appreciate it. Bye.

ClaimDoc is a medical claim auditing and member advocacy company. We provide fiduciary services to employer sponsored benefit plans. We specialize in reference based pricing. We ensure that the benefit plans are being charged in a fair and reasonable basis. They review the invoices or the bills. I was like, well that was invented.

Interesting piece.

And then kind of dug into a little bit deeper and it just was really appealing. Where Claim Doc thrives is we have a member advocacy department. We're hearing from members giving us feedback that they were so thankful to be given a person to talk to on the phone. The second aspect that really sets us apart is our 360 degree understanding of risk. We understand the employee's risk from a credit perspective. We understand the employer's risk from a fiduciary standpoint as well as the litigation defense risk on both parties. I've saved, we'll say hundreds of thousands of dollars through doing this process. I could not say enough about Claim Doc.

We want to give special thanks to our sponsors, Craig Shelley Luxury Watches of Beverly Hills Success North Dallas where Bill Wallace has been connected people for over 30 years. And of course work innovators that is amplifying the voice of business.