Kim Fear/Moro

So we got a couple more people coming in. Did. Did Haley send you the questions ahead of time? That they were. Okay. So I figured we'll start with those, and then any other questions people have will be good. It's been so hot here. How's it been there?

I. So right now I think we're in the 80s.

Hey, Orlando.

87 degrees here in Florida.

87. Well, could you.

Girl. 103. Oh, my gosh.

Could you. Laptop. Because I need somebody to take notes for. Oh, oh, right here. Let's do this one. I thought I emailed the questions to Kylan, so I thought maybe she could take notes, but we'll have her hop on 87. So you're happy. That's your happy zone.

Well, it's cloudy, so, you know, Dr. Sunny's out for the day.

What? Oh, sorry, my bad. I. I wasn't clicking the button. Mark's having trouble getting in. Oh, you gotta let people in. Okay, But I don't see him. Okay, that's. I don't see him requesting it, though.

Hi, Haley.

Thanks for joining us. You're in Florida?

Oklahoma. He's trying again. I don't see his name popping up. He is trying again. He couldn't. He didn't realize why he couldn't get it. He'd give him a second.

Mary, if you want, you can, like. I don't want you to forget, but you can start the recording after we do all of our stuff.

I actually did because I was worried I was going to forget.

Oh, yeah, that's okay.

So it should. How can I tell that it's recording. There's Mark.

On the top.

Okay, he's. He's ready. Mark. Mary, I. I let him in. All right, A couple more introductions here. Okay. We're just introducing ourselves to Kim. Hi, Mike.

There we go.

Emily.

Hi, Emily. Yeah.

Can you. Yeah. I emailed you both questions. We can go from there. Okay. And here you can meet Iran. We're just introducing ourselves to Karen. Yeah, she's here, but I mean, the.

Only one that hasn't met him.

Oh, wait, Megan, you didn't introduce yourself.

Hi. Nice to meet you.

All right, we're all here now. Okay. So we're just gonna do our quick quote for the day in our quick raffle. And Kim.

Yes, ma'.

Am. You'll get to pick something from the raffle, too.

You could win a dollar. That's awesome.

Or 50. Apparently Megan won the 50. I heard on her point, so I did replace it.

Who is the quote today?

Okay, go ahead, Mark.

No one told me. I spoke to a quote today.

Okay, you can send it to me and I'll post it on school later.

We can just do the raffle.

That's okay. All right, we'll give us a quote later and here, I'll read our pono pledge real quick and then just look at it real quick.

All right, I.

All right, so we're mission based. We're here for the kids. Leading the world in pizzot. Leave our troubles at the door and help the most kids we can with sensory processing disorder. Results driven. Get her done and have fun. Eight players only hold ourselves to the highest standards, accountable to each other. Everyone pulls the wagon and adds value. Positive energy to ohana. Take ownership, solutions oriented. When in doubt, talk it out. No limit to ascension. We don't hide mistakes. No drama, no excuses. And always give away your aloha, your smiles, eye contact, everything.

So.

Well, can you do the spinner winner? Do we have two or one? Mark?

Just by the skin of our teeth. We got two.

Was that Jeannie? I saw hers coming in. Who is. Who is the last? Oh, Roxy.

I can't share the screen, but. Roxanne. Yeah, by the skin of our teeth. Okay, well, I can't share my screen, but I will. I will just tell you. I'll just tell you.

A co host. Then you should be able to. All right, try it now.

No, it's fine, Mary.

All right, you just tell us who won right now. Okay? We trust you, right?

I don't know.

It'll probably be Mark.

All right, let me see. It'll be marked Mark. Mark and Mark. All right, here we go.

Okay.

Number one. Oh, it's Emily.

Go, Emily. Okay, Emily's gonna pick something out. And who's the next one?

Hang on.

Give me a second. That would be Abigail.

Abigail.

Okay, Abigail.

She's picking an envelope.

She went for the river tube. That was really fast. She's like, come on. All right, Kim.

Yes.

I can pick, too. There's a giant water jug. Look at this. Your book is in here. You want a copy of your book? There's a beautiful watercolor. And there's money envelopes.

I don't need a prize, Mary.

Yes, you do.

You don't have to do that.

Pick an envelope.

All right. Pick the third one.

There's really fun socks. There's a good poop socks. There's starfish socks. There's shark socks.

Just pick something. Pick an envelope for me.

Jeannie's picking your envelope.

There we go.

All right.

And the envelope is almost Open.

Okay. Go ahead and open it. You're gonna get paid to talk.

All right. That's my biggest payment fee so far.

Okay. I'm gonna. You guys can all hear her? Okay. Yes. Yep. Okay. All right, Kim, if somebody has a specific question besides the one I'm going to read, the ones I'm going to read to her, then we'll pass you, Kim, to that person. Okay. So that she can hear. All right, so Kyin's question was, do Fear and Morrow ever come back? If so, why? And should they be readdressed and treated with exercises again? If you see them come back and what things have you seen prevent them from integrating? That's like a lot. But you have. You have the questions in front of you though, right? To bring.

I do. I don't think they're in the same order that you have them. So let me just. Let me make sure I'm going to get that one. So do they ever come back? If so, why should they be readdressed and treated with exercises again? If they ever. If I see them again? So, yes, they can come back. So all of the reflexes are just patterns in our brain and they stay there, but they integrate with higher level patterns and the like. Fear and Morrow are our two primitive survival reflexes. Can everybody hear me? Okay.

Yes.

Okay. So when they become integrated and Strauss startle response is our survival reflex that we use for the rest of our lives. If, God forbid, we get in a car accident and we have a brain injury, those lower level reflex patterns are still there for our brain to use them. So if we have. If we don't have access to the Strauss startle response, then the brain will go back and use a lower level pattern until it gets to the point that it feels safe. These reflexes, these two, Fear, paralysis, and Moro, their purpose is to keep us safe and to make us feel safe. So if we are under a state of. Even if we don't have a brain injury, but we're under a state of acute or chronic stress, the brain will keep searching for that next level down that makes it feel safe, makes us feel safe and secure and connected to people around us, and. And it will start using those lower level, lower level patterns again. So, for instance, like the. The families in Israel right now who, you know, they're. They're being bombed. Their reflexes are probably all coming back up to the surface and being reactivated, and their brain is using every pattern it can to try to make them feel safe, even if they're in a part of Israel, that is not being attacked. They don't feel safe. So, yes, they can be reactivated again. We had a young man whose moral reflex, to the best of our knowledge, had fully integrated on time and, you know, was being. Was developing appropriately. And he and mom were in a little fender bender in the car, and he was in the back seat. Nobody got hurt, but the driver in the car in front of them came back and yelled at them. And that poor child was so traumatized by this person coming back and yelling at them that his moral reflex responded and reactivated. So mom brought him in. He had never had therapy before. He, I think I want to say he was 7 or 8 years old, had never had therapy before. And we had to help reintegrate that moral reflex because it just popped back up so that he felt like there was something he could do to be safe. And the response was flee. So I don't know if you guys know, and I, forgive me if I'm telling you things that you already know, but fear, paralysis, the primary response is to freeze, right? Paralyze Morrow is your fight and flight response. But either one of them can use a different response than the one that is initially the patterned response. Because our brain will also adapt and say, okay, I've been using this response for, you know, two years, and now mom and dad are yelling at me to go get my shoes on, and they're making me go to school. And fleeing is not working. So now I'm going to start fighting and I'm going to yell and I'm going to kick and scream and stuff like that. So the brain will adapt and will change the response, even if it's a reflexive response. So you need to kind of double check and see. The way you can tell if it's a reflex is what's the stimulus that's creating that response. Because moro is typically stimulated with vestibular head moving back and auditory first, and then it will add olfactory and vision. So you look for the stimulus to see what is triggering that, and then you kind of make your best judgment to determine which reflex. Of course, if you're looking at a variety of responses, then it could be the combination of both reflexes. So, yes, they can both come back. And I said, why? And should they be readdressed and treated with exercises Again, if you see them come back, yes, you should. They should be addressed.

Before you go on, I just want to ask really quick to clarify. So you had just mentioned the triggers for Moro. Can you remind us all what the trigger for Fear paralysis would be. So we can differentiate that.

Yes. So initially. Well, so keeping in mind that fear paralysis should never be active outside the womb. It should be fully integrated around 36 weeks gestation, and the baby's born around 40 weeks gestation. So initially, fear paralysis is triggered by chemicals, hormones, mom's, whatever's going on in mom's body. And initially, fear paralysis is a cellular level response. It's the only one that is. Every cell is responding because it starts before we even have a brain and spinal cord, but after we're born. Well, actually, before we're born, because touch is the first sensory system to develop, and it develops around our nose and mouth. We do know they've done tests with monkeys and they put a probe in utero and they touch the monkeys on their mouth and their nose and, you know, all around their face, and they demonstrate the fear paralysis response. So touch is the initial stimulus, sensory stimulus for fear paralysis. Another reason that we know this is because fear paralysis is tethered to spinal galant reflex. So if spinal galant is active, you're going to have a really tough time integrating fear paralysis. And spinal galant is a touch reflex. And if you think about it, when you stroke the child's back and they have that spinal galant response, which is a withdrawal response. And if they're on their hands and knees, they will, you know, drop to the mat.

Right.

That is in. It's a version of the fear paralysis. Like they are withdrawing and freezing and they can't control their limbs, and they go down as they're older. And you have a little mix of moro in with it and, you know, spinal Perez and the other things, you're going to get giggles, you're going to get silliness with it sometimes. But that silliness is usually a nervous giggle. It's not a this is fun and I'm enjoying this kind of giggle. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna refrain all the ways my brain just bounced and let you keep going.

Okay.

All right.

So, yes, I. I did say they should be readdressed and they should be treated with exercises. But we also treat them in sessions. We give the exercises to the parents, and when we're in session, we do what we call patterning the reflexes. And the reflexes have this. I don't know if anybody's read the Symphony of Reflexes by Bonnie Brandis, but it's. It's. It is like this little dance where they go back and forth and they intertwine with each other, and then they separate, and then they come together again. And when you kind of know which ones work together and which ones inhibit each other, then you can utilize that in your sessions. So, for instance, a really handy little trick to know is, is gross grasp, tight grip will inhibit Moro reflex. And so if you think about it, when. When Moro is activated, we're going into, like, extension, right? And the arms are going out and tec. Like, technically, we're abduction and extension and gasping. Well, it's hard to do that when you're holding on to something. So we will use trapeze a lot for a child that has an active moral reflex and have them hold on to the trapeze, swing from it, you know, crash land on the crash pad or kick beach ball with their. Their feet or something like that. But we're utilizing that gross grasp so that we're inhibiting Moro in some of our sessions. Does that help?

Yeah, yeah. We do that a lot, too. For the bulls that are really hard to direct. The trampoline actually got us going on that trampoline with the trapeze.

Right.

Really good.

Because then they're kind of moving all over and grabbing, right?

Yeah.

What about the part of the question, like, what have you seen prevent them from integrating? Like, when we're stuck and they're just not progressing.

Right.

So that's. It's kind of funny you guys ask that, because one of my ots just asked me yesterday, like, why isn't the sphere paralysis integrating? There are four main things that I know of that will prevent it from integrating. Number one, I already said spinal galant being active will tether it. It will keep it from fully integrating. Number two would be the vagus nerve compression. So where the vagus nerve comes out of the brain, the brain stem, if.

It is what I said, I totally forgot about that, Kim.

Yeah, so if you can do. Sometimes the laser will help with that. It'll loosen up some of the tension. But, you know, when these kids stay in this. This tense state chronically and those neck muscles get tight, like, we felt that, right? When your neck muscles get tight and you can feel it's just so much tension back there, it's going to compress the vertebrae and the skull down into the vertebrae, and it's going to compress in some children will compress the vagus nerve. And when that vagus nerve is compressed, you can't integrate the fear, paralysis, or moro. So we have sent kids out for chiropractic care if we, if we're like, we're at wit's end, we can't. We've done everything we know, we know what to do for the fear paralysis reflex. We will send them to chiropractic care to get their, their neck adjusted and, you know, make sure that there's not a compressed vagus nerve in there. They'll come back a month later and we'll be able to integrate it fairly quickly after that. So that's number two, spinal gland, vagus nerve compression. I'm drawing a blank on number three. And number four is environment. So if they are in an environment that continues that acute or chronic stress, there's no reason for the brain to integrate because that's what's making it feel safe. So it's not going to integrate. I'm. What is number three?

Please say constipation.

I like.

Please say constipation.

Oh, Kylan wants you to say constipation.

Well, I mean, I would say constipation as a result of it, especially if the vagus nerve is compressed, but I don't think I wouldn't. I can't think of an instance where constipation would prevent fear paralysis from integrating. Oh, goodness. It's going to pop into my brain as we're talking about something else. So we'll just.

Then when it pops in.

Yeah.

Okay. Any, any more before we go to the next question, Any more clarification or comment? Okay.

Are there things that can prevent the moral from integrating?

Did you hear her? She said, are there things that could prevent the Moro from integrating?

Yes. Fear paralysis being active. So fear paralysis is active. Moro won't fully integrate because part of the job of Moro is to take the place of fear paralysis as a survival, survival reflex. And so Moro actually should be active to be able to integrate. Oh, there you go. That's. I just thought of it. And not having an active morrow will prevent fear paralysis from integrating because Moro has to take over the job of survival reflex. So fear paralysis will integrate and then st. Startle response has to take over the job of survival reflex. Moro can integrate. So you have to pattern the brain through all three of these reflexes.

Another question.

Okay, so, so if we are like working on the fear and it's like really close to being fully integrated, and then we kind of switch to doing the kind of focusing on both moral and fear. So we're still working on integrating that fear, but then we start kind of bring, trying to bring out that morrow and start Working on treating it. And the morrow gets integrated really fast and the fear sticks around. What do we go back to?

So, so my approach is we don't try to integrate Moro while fear is still active. So what we're doing is we're patterning Moro all three stages, and we're just like, keep it coming, keep it active, keep it going. And so we will make a loud noise and, you know, have the kids like, you know, go backwards over the big ball with a loud noise, drop marbles into a metal bucket, and then come forward into that Moro stage two, and then put a piece of puzzle into the puzzle, you know, the insert puzzle so that at Moro 3, like, go into alert, go into grasp pattern Moro 2, and then go into homeostasis for a minute, and we'll repeat it over and over and over again. In the session while the parents are doing the fear paralysis stuff at home, we don't use the, the laser as much as you guys do, but we, when we do use it, we use it in our sessions, but we don't have a lot of kids that'll sit still for it. And I think that's another one of the questions. But laser is helpful as well. So we'll use that in the session sometimes for fear paralysis. But most of what we're doing is probably spending about 35 minutes on patterning Moro to make sure it's strong. And we tell the parents, as you're going through this stage of the neur, developmental therapy, home life is not going to be a lot of fun because we're just reinforcing that fight flight and freeze response. But it has to be done, in my opinion, to make fear paralysis fully integrate.

Ah, I see.

Yeah. And I remember, Kim, another one of your activities was like having them fall back off the.

The bolster swing.

The bolster swing are the rockets. So they open up and then they close?

Yep.

Cool.

Sometimes. Well, you guys have lycra swings, too? Sometimes we'll put them in the lycra swing supine and kind of like taco them, you know, so that they're. They're almost swaddled. And then we'll kind of gently go 1, 2, 3, and then, you know, big lift up and let them fall down. And they will automatically go in tomorrow as they're falling backwards. Did that make sense? Yeah, I described that. Okay.

Yeah. We do a lot in the spandex that we're probably doing that without even thinking about it, you know, because they like to be bounced up in the air. So they're opening up when they're in the air, throwing them all around and. Okay, so Orlando's question is, when kids are addressing fear through the qri, is it too much to also add the passive or active fear paralysis exercise? Like to do it alongside the.

No, because in my opinion, I mean, we do both. Again, we don't typically do the exercises in the session. We send those home with mom and dad. If mom and dad are not consistent with doing it and you know, we're only telling them it needs to be done twice a week and they're not doing it at home, then we will do it in the session to make sure we get at least once a week. But the QRI is really, actually calming and relaxing. So using that. The only time we wouldn't do the QRI is if they're already too, if they're already too low tone and kind of lack a response. If we don't have enough moro, we won't do the qri because there are some theories that fear paralysis plays a role in sids, Sudden infant death syndrome. And we just don't want to bring our kids down too low. We want to make sure that, you know, we're keeping their blood pressure at a decent rate. And we've actually had a few that we have to check their blood pressure because they just become so sedentary and, and just. So what's the word I'm looking for? I don't want passive is what I'm thinking of. But that's not the word that I want to use. But anyway, they. Oh, unresponsive. They just become very unresponsive because they get so relaxed with the, the, the exercises and the QRI going at the same time. I don't know if you guys have experienced that. Maybe it's just some of our kids that are doing it.

But I guess I would just the precaution. There we are doing both just to make sure we're not making them. Yeah, two. Two checked out or two dorsal.

I think. Yeah. If you were to use the polyvagal theory, we would say they're going too dorsal.

Yeah. Kim, you have a lot more success. Kim's a private practice. I mean, she's a cash based private practice. Our clientele is a little bit different. So she has a lot more success with doing the fear stuff at home than I think we do. So we tend to do it more in session. I'm not sure what our main challenges, if it's them doing it right or Too much or follow through, but kind of a combination.

We just created that checklist that I just edited, so it could be in columns and a few extra things. But what One of the challenges that we have, Kim, is as we're introducing these exercises, our kids are so sensitive to the fear paralysis exercises that we don't. We're trying to figure out what, at what rate to send them home so that we don't exacerbate things too much. So we're trying to kind of ration those things and make it really clear to families so that they can be.

More successful right when we send them home. I don't know how you guys are doing it, but we have. We've blown up the exercises so that we have only legs on one piece of paper, upper body on another piece, and then head on a third piece, and then we have one piece of paper that has all of them. So we always start the family with the legs, the lower extremity, and we say do five each. That's it. And do it one time. So for like two weeks, they're only doing it once, and we're doing it in session just to make sure. After that, we will tell them, okay, for the next two to four weeks, we want you to do it twice at home and do 15 times. But I mean, again, we're titrating it based on are they actually going to follow through? How is the child responding to it? You know, what's going on in their. Their home life at the time? I mean, if mom's pregnant and giving birth to a new baby, we're not gonna push too hard, right? I mean, nobody's going to follow through. And we don't need mom or that child melting down with a new baby in the house. But we start, we titrate everything very, very low in the beginning. So we'll start with very minimal exercises.

I know at one point when you talked about the fear exercises, you'd used it based. I thought you said more on time than repetitions. Is that still what you guys use.

In your clinic versus we do, yeah. So in our mind, we know we're kind of timing it. Like, we're starting with 30 seconds. So five repetitions. If they do the speed and we have a video, I, you know, there's a video of me doing all of the exercises, and we send it to the parents. Just do it with Ms. Kim. Like, lay down and do the exercises with Ms. Kim. And so if they do it at the speed that I'm doing it, we start at 30 seconds and then we increase to one minute and then we increase to a minute and a half and then two minutes, then we increase the number of days. So what we really want is to have them doing the pre birth exercises, all of them, two minutes each, five times a week for two weeks. That's, that's the ultimate goal. And so, you know, not everybody gets there at the same time. And not everybody gets there. Sometimes we just have to move forward because the families won't follow through. And you know, we're very clear about the fact that if you don't follow through, you're going to be paying for therapy for a lot longer. But that's the way it works.

Okay. I think that's why we have it at about kind of 10 repetitions right now because like total with all of those exercises, I've timed it and it's about two minutes for like the length, two minutes for the arms when it's doing 10 repetitions slowly. So that's on our documentation right now. And that's like an easy number for families to remember and attach to. But that makes, that makes a lot of sense. And I think we're in the process of creating more of the videos for them to follow along with.

Awesome.

Yeah.

Okay, so can I clarify, you're not.

Saying each exercise is 30 sec, like one, the whole set of arms would be.

No. Each exercise 30 seconds. Yes. So. Yes.

Okay.

So like I call it W. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Okay.

So each one for 30 seconds and then each one for a minute and.

Then each 15 would be the. Yes, sure.

Right, right. Which is why it's so important for them to go slowly. Like if you have a kid that's going really fast back and forth with the exercises, like just because they did the motion doesn't mean they completed the exercise. Right.

Well, and if you think about it, if they're doing the one that goes like this and they're, you know, they're going fast, what am I, what am I patterning? If I'm doing the exercise that looks like. Here, let me see if I can. If I'm doing the one that looks like this, what am I patterning right now? That's Moro. My arms are going out in abduction.

Right.

So if they're doing it fast, then all they're doing is reinforcing Moro, which we still want, but we're not, we're not getting these pre birth exercises are meant to mimic what the baby would typically do in utero before it's born. And, and It's. It is patterning moral, but it's doing it in water and it's doing it in slow motion. And it's also doing it against resistance because we run out of room in the womb. Right. So sometimes we'll have kids do it in a body sock so that they can feel that resistance as well. And we just tell them, go slow motion. In a body sock.

Yeah.

For that spandex. We've had kids doing the spandex. Yeah. So we have three more questions.

Okay.

Nicole, what do you do if you have a child with fear and Morrow who will not sit still? And how do you implement the fear exercise?

So the only way that I have been able to get our really active kids to do it is parents can do it while they're sleeping. So we have. We'll tell them you can do it when they're asleep or if they're in the bathtub and they're enjoying their bath. You can. And it doesn't have to be. You have to do all five knee swings, you know, in.

In a row.

You don't have to do that. Just get it. Get it in where you can. In our sessions, I have turned it into swim lessons. I have turned it into slow motion ninjas jumping off of pirate ships. So we'll use like, you know, our platform swings or our lycra swings. And I will have, again, remember, I'm patterning Moreau, so I will have them fall out of the swing, quote, unquote, fall out of the swing on backwards onto our crash pad, and we'll make up this whole story. Oh, we're on a deserted island and we need to, you know, swim to shore. And so we will get off of the crash pad onto the mat, or we need to swim back to the boat or something like that. And we'll do the leg exercises as if they are our swimming moves. And we might only do one each, or we might do five of one and that's it. And then we'll get back into the ship and then, oh, no, we fell overboard again. Swim back to the ship. So turning it into play, which, I mean, as ots, that's just. We're experts at that. So I would say don't expect it to be perfect. Don't expect it to be super slow motion if you're doing it in play. But keep in mind, when these reflexes are developing naturally, yeah, they're going to be slow motion in utero. But even babies kick. They have rapid kicks. So it doesn't have to all Be perfect. And as they are after they are born, if the reflexes are developing naturally, they're not happening in these beautiful patterns ten times in a row. Right. They're happening while the child is interacting with their environment and with the people in their environment.

Yeah.

Does that help?

Yeah, that makes sense for everybody.

What about a hit that's not directable.

At all or very hard to direct? So when you are. So when you say direct, do you mean, like, make them do the exercises or you can't even engage them in play?

Can't engage them in play. Like, you're level three autism kids who just want to sit in stem. Or, you know, they want to sit on their swing and swing, but there's not a lot of engagement or directability.

Like, can you. Can you do, like, hand over hand or is that possible? In that case, it probably is best for the parents to do it while they're asleep.

Okay.

Or you could put them in a body sock. And sometimes being in a body sock feels so relaxing to them that you could get a few knee swings in or frog legs or something in Kim, in those situations.

I mean, I'm. I'm just thinking about, like, the bigger picture of just, like, the fact that we treat sensory. Is it valuable if there's a kid that's not quite directable yet to not even address fear yet until we have something like vestibular or, like, attention for, like, a longer period of time, Would that be worth.

We are constantly deciding, like, what's the best first approach. And a lot of times we will use the safe and sound protocol before we start integrating reflexes. Because sometimes our kids come in with just rage and fear that is just beyond what we can. We can expect them to cooperate. So, yeah, we will do. And. And, you know, we have. I don't remember. Do you have dimmable lights in your clinic?

Sort of. We can turn some lights off in the rooms and then. Okay.

Okay. So we have recently we purchased the projector that does, like this, the stars on the ceiling. And it's a Bluetooth speaker. And we will turn off the lights in the room and let them get into like, a Lycra swing or something and play the safe and sound protocol on the Bluetooth speaker with the lights going. And they will lay there and listen to it and just come out, like, so chill. So while they're laying there, every now and then, we can get a little leg movement in or a little arm movement in, or even just a little head movement. I personally like to start with the Legs, Because I feel like we can release that tension in the pelvis, and then that's just going to travel the spine. But if I can't get to the legs, I will start with the arms or the head just so I can get something.

I love that you just talked about Safe and sound protocol because we have a lot of new hires that we're, like, still rebuilding our wellness program. But the Safe it Sound protocol is something that we can kind of re. Like have more people go through more training so we can use it more in sessions.

Yeah, we.

We.

We use it. I mean, we've turned it into a package, and I'm sure you guys can probably do that as well, if you haven't already. I can't remember if I know you do the laser as a package, but we have times.

But what we found is because it's just as powerful as the fear paralysis, we want to be careful with, like, how quickly they implement it and how it's monitored especially. Right. That's provided with polyvagal theory and just the warnings that they have with that protocol.

Yep.

I can tell you how we're doing it because we're doing it slow, but we're doing it as a package.

Two more questions.

Yeah, let's do the two more questions because. So do you ever stop doing fear morrow exercises, and if so, for how long? I think in context of this, this is like, we're doing the fear and morrow. The behaviors have ramped up a lot. Like, maybe they're having disturbed sleep, they're having night terrors. Would you stop? Would you pause? Like, what do you do?

Yes. Well, I mean, I've already said sometimes we'll stop to send them to a chiropractor.

Right.

So, yes, we do stop if they are experiencing distress over something. And when that happens, I mean, we just become detectives and we try to figure out, what are we? What does the child need? And honestly, sometimes I've experienced that they become more irritable when we're working on something that they've actually integrated and we haven't recognized it, and we don't recognize it because they're irritable. And we think it's still the reflexive response. So that's where you have to go back to. Are we reacting to a stimulus or are we reacting to an environmental issue? The environmental issue possibly being we're doing something that they're bored with and isn't even, like, moving their brain forward anymore.

Gotcha.

So it's like almost this annoyance of, why are we still Doing this?

Yes, it, it kind of is. Especially if the behaviors happen around their therapy sessions. Either they don't want to come to therapy anymore, they come in and they're irritable because they feel like they could do something more and, and they don't want to continue doing these exercises. I have a follow up question to that.

If you're doing the exercises like in session and they're telling you to stop, or they're not comfortable but say you only got through like two of them, then the next time you see them, do you start with just like the two and just keep working on the two until they can?

No, I would, I'm constantly like trying to find that just right challenge. So if they can only do two, you know, today and next Tuesday they come in, I'm still going to try to get those five or 10 that I was hoping for. But if they say stop, I respect it. If their cheeks flushed, I respect it. But yeah, I'm going to keep trying because I want them to move forward.

Okay.

So I didn't know if you, that's like your cue to kind of slow it down and just like next time try to go for three or.

I mean, if, if I were trying to get 15 and they only let me get 2, then yeah, I would slow that down. But maybe they're just having a bad day today. If it's just a one time that they're saying stop, I, I would, I would still try again. If they repeatedly say stop, then I be, I would become a detective and I would try to figure out what's going on. And maybe then I would switch to the safe and sound protocol because we're, maybe we're moving too fast for their brain if we're just jumping right into the reflexes.

Okay, cool. Thank you.

And just a, that was like two repetitions instead of two and like versus like two exercises.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, we have one more. Yeah.

Yep. Typically, how long does it take to integrate fear? If they're doing two times a week.

At home, we typically see it integrated anywhere from two to four months. So three months would be what we would expect. But sometimes we've got the little ones. Oh my gosh. They can go through it so fast just because their brains are just so plastic. But our, our typical age range where we're working with it is like six to ten year olds. And so I would say anywhere from two to four months.

And, and that's like, once they're doing it consistently two times a week at home, it might take some Time to build them up to that. So it might take like six months total. Right. But you're building up the tolerance.

Okay, well, we typically try to get them up to the full home program, doing all of the exercises in about, I would say, eight weeks, if we can.

Yeah. So eight weeks to get them up to the full. And then another two to four to.

Of them doing it at home. No. Well, so eight weeks to build up to the full exercises at home to where we're. Where we're doing the. The all five or all of the exercises. Two minutes each, five days a week. We're hoping to get there in eight weeks. So we are pushing a little bit, and then from there we're looking for two more weeks. If we can do all five, all of the exercises, five days a week for two minutes each exercise, we want to do that for two weeks. Once we get to that point, we're going to say, let's stop doing the home exercises. We'll continue therapy in the clinic, and let's see what happens. Have we fully integrated it? Do we still have a spinal Galant? If we do, then we're not going to stop the exercises. If, if we stay still, are having issues, then that's where we might. That might be the point that we say we need to go to a chiropractor or do some body work. We're all getting ready to get trained in body work, so we're going to be doing it there. But right now we refer out to a chiropractor.

If they have spinal Galant. Would you address spinal G before even addressing fear paralysis?

I would address it while addressing fear paralysis because they're stuck together.

Thank you so much, Kim.

My pleasure.

Round of applause.

Thanks.

You see why I just love picking her brain. Isn't that amazing? You so much if you hear that. No, Ziggy said the meeting is over. Their kids. Thank you so much.

My pleasure. Okay, if you guys have any questions, feel free to email me or have.

Mary, we have a local chiropractic.