#67 Trust, Transition, and the Making of a Great General Counsel

Hello everybody and welcome to Pearls on Gloves off, where we delve into the evolving landscape of legal leadership and innovation. I am your host, Mary o', Carroll, Chief Operating Officer at Goodwin. And today I am honored to be joined by Genevieve Kelly, a distinguished legal executive with over 25 years of experience. Her career spans general counsel and CLO roles at renowned companies that you all know, such as Panera Bread, Petco, Dole Food company and more. She has experience running huge global teams, building and scaling legal departments, and even taking some of these big companies public. Genevieve currently serves in a really interesting role as General Counsel in residence here at Goodwin, where she advises emerging companies and startups on a range of critical issues, including IPOs, corporate governance, litigation management, MA, labor and employment and regulatory compliance. In today's conversation, we'll explore the realities of leading legal functions at these multinational companies, strategies for effective collaboration between in house teams and outside counsel. And Genevieve gets personal and vulnerable as she reflects on career transitions and identifying the right professional fit. So whether you're in house at a firm or charting your own legal path, I hope this discussion gives you some valuable perspectives on the future of legal.

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Great to have you, Genevieve. Nice to see you today. How are things?

Things are good. How are you?

Good. I have to say you were one of the pleasant surprises that I found when I got to Goodwin because who knew that we had this very innovative concept of a general council in residence.

Yes, I was very happy to see you as well because I remember you from clock.

Were you involved in CLOCK back in the day?

So I tried very hard to get members of my legal department to be involved in CLOCK because I believe in legal operations. I think that it's great, great to have that in house and to really do what you can to bring efficiency to the department. And metrics. The legal departments generally don't use metrics, so that whole advancement is great.

It's always so nice to hear that people out in the world knew about CLOCK and were advocating for legal ops. So thank you for saying so. I was pretty excited to hear about this concept of a GC in residence at a law firm, which kind of, you know, was just another thing that underscored to me how important client focus is at Goodwin. And your background is also super impressive. You already kind of hinted at past roles you've had in house. But maybe we can start with a quick overview of some of your past roles and kind of what brought you here to this one.

Sure. So I started actually in private practice way back in 1993. Actually had a Fulbright scholarship to study international law in Europe. And then I went into private practice. I started at Sidley and Austin, then McDermott, Will and Emory doing corporate law. And about four years in, I realized I wanted to be more involved in business. And so that's when I went in house. I went to Starwood Hotels in Europe, in Brussels for a few years doing hotel acquisitions dispositions and then decide I want to go back to the US and the companies where I've been have been mainly consumer oriented. So I spent over 14 years with Dole Food Company. Then I went to Petco, and then I went to Panera. But I joined Panera during the pandemic. So I did it remotely and then ultimately decided that I wasn't going to relocate for that particular opportunity. And that brought me to Goodwin. So while I'm looking for my next consumer clo GC role, I'm a resource for the company, for the law firm, for the company clients, and for the lawyers here. Bringing the GC perspective.

That's so great. And so you've been at like multiple, at the helm of multiple multinational, like household name companies. Panera, Dole, and I think I told you so funny that I took my kid and her cousin to Panera the other day and Dole, I have to share, I was in an orange ad for Dole when I was in high school. They were looking for like high school kids sitting around after a bike ride, like looking like they were eating oranges. And so I was like on a poster for Dole oranges in Canadian supermarkets, which I just.

Oh my gosh.

I never saw it, but I thought it was very amusing. But moving on, what was it like? I mean, tell us what the role is like for running these large organization legal departments that are in all parts of the world with really complex businesses.

I mean, I was brought in to that my first GC role relatively easily because I had spent so many years with Dole before I became the general counsel. I joined Dole as an assistant general counsel for the parent company Dole, and then as a divisional GC for our fresh fruit division. And then over the course of 14 years, my role just kept expanding. So that was easier for me to become the GC because I knew everyone, I knew the organization very well. I had traveled around the world and were part of the leadership teams of various divisions. So wasn't difficult for me to join as the gc.

Let's touch on that as a homegrown gc. And I want to get to your other experiences. Was there anything that you did to kind of be the one that stood out and made it? I mean, you know, it's like you start with all these people and a few cream rises to the top and a few people make their way. And you went from a divisional GC to eventually the GC of the whole org. How was that journey? Was it intentional? Did you just get tapped and say, maybe I'll try this, you know, in some of the roles that gave you leadership positions or how did it all come about?

That's a great question. And the answer really is I was pushed up by the operations. I was probably, I was the most junior person in terms of age within the corporate headquarters. The fact that the role went to me was somewhat surprising except that my operations, fresh fruit were really the engine for Dole in terms of revenues. So we had packaged foods and flowers and vegetables, but they just, just weren't as big as fresh fruit. So I had that going for me. But I also had people in the operations say, Genevieve really understands our business. She really tries what she can do to know how to help us fix the problems. And the way I was able to do it first, I loved it because I was learning all about the business and I was traveling to the various sites and I was seeing what was going on. And while I was doing that and being part of their own meetings, whatever they were talking about marketing or supply issues, I was learning. And so then when a legal issue did come up, I was able to immediately put the pieces together because I understood the context very well. Contrast that with some other in house lawyers that because they've got so much work, don't get out in the field. And so I think it makes it more difficult for them to get profiled as the right person because they're so solidly within the silo of legal.

Yeah, it's so important to build those relationships with your internal clients or the business as you call it. Okay, so that's great. So I interrupted you. So back to your other roles.

So that's interesting to contrast it with my other roles where I was appointed CLO and in charge of people I didn't hire within my own department. So that was very different and harder, frankly, because you're doing things on multiple levels. You're trying to understand the business, you're trying to understand the dynamics of your own team. You're trying to understand the dynamics of the C suite. There's other things to think about. The board if you're public, even if you're private. So you've got a number of things on your plate and you don't know the audience. So you really have to learn to think quickly on your feet. It's been a learning journey for me. I mean, I've stumbled a few times. It's really brought home to me the importance of relationships. So when you're at the C suite level, people assume you know how to do your job, and that's not what they're focusing on. They're focusing on how well can you get along with other people? How comfortable do they feel with you? Do they trust you? And that was surprising to me because at Dole, I had spent my career doing the work, and ultimately I got pushed up. And so it wasn't all that obvious to me, the differences in the skill set.

Yeah. Was that scary? I mean, having spent most of your career at Dole and then leading it, and then to go into running an organization where, like you said, you didn't have existing relationships or reputation or trust. I can kind of relate to that. Coming into this role as well, where there's so much to learn, there's so much trust to build, and you know you're gonna make missteps, but there's a lot to figure out.

Exactly. And I've done this two different places now since stol, and I definitely. Lessons learned. I was very focused on making things better within the department. I was hired at both places as a change agent. Let's make things better. And that can ruffle feathers, especially when you're working with people who have been doing it a certain way. You really need to get to know people. You need to build the trust. PANERA I was working basically 3,000 miles away, two time zones away from my team. That was super hard that I didn't realize how hard that would be.

And that was because you started during the pandemic, you said. And so we started during the pandemic.

And there was no travel, if, you know, you remember. Then we ultimately closed the office, and it didn't reopen for about 12 months. And at that point, I'd seen enough to realize this might not be the right fit. And so I decided not to relocate.

It's so interesting when I think back to the time of the pandemic, and I was having this conversation with some of my team today when I was at ironclad. The most productive years of the company's history were during the pandemic when people were remote and totally working hard, getting stuff done. Building relationships, on the one hand I think absolutely can be effective, can build relationships that way, can run a company that way. And on the other hand, I'm back now. I like to go to the office five days a week. I like to travel around and meet people in person. And I think there's nothing that can compare to being in a room, being face to face to build those relationships. Even though I think you can do a lot of it virtually. So, yeah, I kind of struggle with what the perfect model is. But they're really, I mean, the face to face thing really does matter.

I mean, I think there's no substitute. I think you really do not pick up on the full 360 experience unless you've met someone in person. And interestingly enough, I don't even think it's meetings that really gets you knowing the person. I get to know people best when you travel together. Right. Because that's when somebody's letting down his or her hair. Right. And you're seeing everything and you're getting a little more familiar. It just takes seeing people in different situations to really get to know them. And then that's when the magic happens. Right. You get to know somebody and people feel like they can partner with you.

Yeah. I'm also curious. Your career has been consumer products and you kind of said that you're interested in looking for another consumer products home. Contrast that to one of my previous CLO guests on this show from CLO of Intel, April Miller Boyce, who actually said she has a wide variety of industries and hadn't really worked in tech before she became the CLO of Intel. And that actually has helped her in her role. But obviously, you know, you can hit the ground running because you've seen different aspects of different companies within the same industry. What are your thoughts on how much industry expertise helps you or not?

That's interesting. I mean, I've come to consumer because I've done other things that I didn't particularly love. So I. One of my in house roles was with Occidental Petroleum Corporation early on. So that was oil and gas. I didn't enjoy that as much. I did investment banking which was more services oriented. There was no real product. And I think what I've come to really enjoy is making something and then also understanding it from the consumer perspective as well as being a legal counsel. You also have the perspective of a consumer. And you're also able to use your business acumen. It's not hard. Everybody has the consumer experience, so I'm able to sort of fully participate in the discussion. Contrast that with the oil and gas there. You need technical background, some engineering, and there really was only so much I could do in terms of putting in my 2 cents from the business angle because I didn't have the necessary background.

Yeah, okay. And so now you've got this great role here, this GC in residence at a law firm. I guess give us a day in the life. What does that role look like?

The good thing about this role is because I'm the first person in it, I get to decide how it works.

Love being the first person in role. Building the function, inventing it.

For me, the beauty of this role is really being able to share the experiences I've had as an in house lawyer with, with the attorneys here. Because even the partners, they really may not have a full appreciation of what's the in house perspective. Right. What does the in house lawyer GC really need from the outside law firm? What helps that GC succeed in front of the directors or the CEO? And it's not just great work product, it's a perspective that's necessary. And sometimes outside counsel can be very focused on if it's litigation, say winning the lawsuit. Whereas there might be other issues that are more important to the in house counsel. It might be better to settle right from a business angle because these are parties we may do business with in the future. It's creating bad publicity from a short term perspective. We're spending a lot of money on it. Right. So it can be better to structure resolution of the litigation in a way that outside counsel wouldn't necessarily want to do because they feel from a legal perspective you would win.

I actually remember a similar conversation when I was at Google with litigation outside counsel that sat down with our team and basically said, what do you want to happen here in an ideal situation? What's the outcome? And we were like, this goes away, nobody hears about it. It's not on every newspaper. So okay, what would you pay for that outcome? How quickly do you want to get there? What is, what does great look like? And that was just a very different conversation than to your point. Let's go through all the merits of this case. Frankly, like putting yourself in the shoes of the client and asking the right questions relating to them is, is really important. I think you can say it like partners, associates, totally different. I worked at a law firm I've worked in house. I've seen the day to day roles of these lawyers. It's, it is night and day. Inside life is very different. And law firm lawyers who go to the in house side, really it's eye opening. We have a program here at Goodwin for first and second year associates called our client Immersion Program. And it's almost like a, it's a secondment program where you go become a lawyer and sit in house with the client for a year or two and then come back. And I'm guessing, I have no idea what the data tells us, but I'm guessing that those are the lawyers who are going to be more successful or at least really successful here because you really understand what your clients are dealing with day to day. And it is, it's a very different. I don't know, I get, I loved your thoughts on kind of how that inside, outside role is different.

I mean, I think it's a great idea that Goodwin's doing this and I wouldn't be surprised if eventually what happens is a lot of those lawyers get poached. Legal teams are desperate to have somebody who knows the business and is a great lawyer. And generally everybody's so busy nobody's got time to go ferret through who's the right person. So if someone is there doing a great job, that's the right person. But it also, it's great for Goodwin because that person now understands a lot more about the company than anybody working on narrow projects would and also personalities. So it's not just the answer, but it's how you deliver the answer. The lawyer knows better how to deliver information to whomever it is at the company by virtue of having worked with that person.

When you were at some of these big companies, what do you wish that your outside counsel understood more about your life and your roles?

First, I think that outside counsel needs to try and align their priorities with your priorities. So to understand exactly what the client needs. And that would for me differ based on various projects. If it was a big M and a situation that's going to take a long time. It's really important to have the right experts. Cost is less of an issue. And it's really about making sure that we have people that have the right knowledge, the right antitrust knowledge that really can give the right answer the first time. Not a, it's could be this or it could be that and that's expensive, right? To make sure you have the right team and the right experts. But for something smaller it might be, I don't want the partner on that. Right. I just want a smart associate who can turn this around quickly. I don't need a document that's changed, except for the material issues. So oftentimes, what will happen when you are working with law firms and you have more junior people, they don't sort of understand what's material and what isn't. Right. They're just giving you the right answer. And so if you're sending that back to the company, that's not going to be very helpful if you have to negotiate even issues that are not material with the other side. So that level of discretion, I think is something that if the law firm attorneys can understand, what are the pressure points, what's really necessary for each assignment, what makes this move smoothly and quickly, that makes it a good partner.

So that's the key. I mean, you've mentioned it, other guests have mentioned it quickly. You have to operate at the speed of business and make decisions without perfect information. So you don't need 20 pages telling you why. This is the. It's almost like, just tell me the answer so that I feel comfortable moving on.

Or even better, here's what you want as the answer. So let me try and get you there. Right. So don't. Just tell me what you think the answer is. I'm telling you, look, we want to do business in India.

Yeah.

So you tell me how to do.

It, how to get there. Yeah. And I have always found that there is a communication challenge between clients and law firms. Again, having been on both sides, where the clients know what they want and they almost expect the law firm to know that and to read their minds, but the law firms don't. And so they're going to err on the side of caution and giving you everything and turning over every leaf. Whereas, like you just said, I just want an associate. A quick and dirty. A couple of bullets get back to me as soon as possible. I don't think enough clients are explicitly saying those words. They ask the question that they're trying to get answered. But to say, this is how I want it delivered back to me, the format in which I want it delivered back. Cause I hear all the time, oh, I called this firm and the next thing you know, I've got the. I've run up this huge bill and they sent me all these documents. It's not what I wanted. Did you tell them that? No. They should know. What are they dumb? Like they. How are they supposed to know if we don't tell them? We've got to be Very specific.

Right, I agree. So every company where I've been the gc, we had billing guidelines, so we would provide those to the law firm. And then when, before we hired the law firm, we generally have an rfp. So during that whole process, while we're evaluating who's the right law firm for the matter, we would tell you, look, this is how we expect it to work. We don't want one partner we never see and then 30 associates cycling through this. Right. We want a team of people that we've agreed to. Yeah, get it all out at the beginning. I had actually worked with someone early on in my career and she didn't do that. And then she got a bill for, I don't know, it was $500,000. It was a lot. And that bill then went to her division, then budgeted for that. And it took her a long time to get over that. Quite frankly, that was a very unhappy experience for that, that lawyer.

Yeah, I bet. The other thing that I think is really important is, and you touched on this earlier, the law firms need to understand your business, understand your industry, understand the inside lingo, the who's who, how you like things done, how work gets done. If you are bringing on, for example, a brand new firm or establishing a new relationship or doing an RFP for a new panel, everyone's got their incumbent firms. But if you're willing to take on a new firm, I remember it feeling like it was this huge investment of our time, of their time. How do you get a new firm to understand your business intimately without running up a huge bill?

So I expect that all to be gratis. Frankly, law firms are pretty good about trying to understand the company. I'd say one of the main drivers of getting the business was to have a pamphlet from the firm, a package that was tailored to the company. So oftentimes we would get sort of off the shelf materials and there wasn't a whole lot of work put into it. And so you can imagine those firms went like straight to the bottom of the pile. But firms that took a few hours to read through, if it's piece litigation, the complaint, and then think about the types of defenses that they would make, and then think about the most cost efficient disposition and the timeline for this and then think about the best partner match or team match for us and teach us. I mean, sometimes we had our understanding of how the litigation would likely go and they would flag this judge considers this argument helpful, or we've won a case, similar case for a client like this, and so would be informing us. Those are the people that I would give the business to. It's a bespoke response.

Yes. Okay, so I get that side. The law firms are very eager to learn and to absorb everything from you, the client. How can the client be helpful in quickly getting the firm to understand the ins and outs? Are there things that you as a client can.

That's a hard ask.

Yeah, it is. It's an investment. So how do you do it?

So if I knew that I was going to need a specific type of expertise, I would start early, I would reach out. In fact, I still do that now in thinking of my next role, I reach out to various people, even within Goodwin, to get to know them better. Because eventually if there's a cybersecurity issue. Right. I know, okay, here's somebody I can call. Here's somebody I know that I personally will mesh with. Right. This is not something you can do quickly is, I guess, my answer.

Yeah. And you are in this role, you are advising many of our, like startup emerging companies where they either don't have a GC or maybe have a new GC on how to run scale their business. What's that like? And are you seeing trends, interesting things to share?

Everybody's different. What I've noticed most is there's a lot of uncertainty right now and there's been uncertainty for quite a while. So there was uncertainty before the election, now there's uncertainty after the election. So people are just trying to be, I think, most cost efficient in terms of where do they put their dollars. And regulations, I think are of concern what will be enforced, what won't be enforced. And then in general, investor sentiment. Right. Possibly going public or not, and then with interest rates up, what does that do to other forms of financing? So I think that people are very focused on how uncertain the situation is and then sort of trying to get situated in this, in this environment.

And so these are like small companies that you're advising. You've worked at big companies, you worked at private companies, you've actually taken some public. How different is the role of general counsel in small versus large and public versus private? Does the role change a lot once you post IPO or I'd say in.

A public company environment, almost more than half of your role is focused on governance and working with the board and the public facing perception of the company. And that takes a lot of your time. When you're private, you might be thinking ahead to a go public pathway. And so there are some protocols and things you want to have in place, but it's not the same sort of focus that you would have. I enjoy governance. In fact, when Dole went private, we had a lot of litigation in Delaware. And so that. That really got me educated about Delaware laws and governance. And I've been a member of the national association of corporate directors since 2009. And so that's a good way also to keep your finger on the pulse of what directors are thinking. But I found it a little easier to focus on business only when you're private.

Yeah, I can imagine that. And so now, you know, you've worked at some amazing places, places you're looking for your next role. I'm curious. You have the luxury of time. You've got this job now. You can be cautious about people who are approaching you with their organizations. What are you thinking about? What are you looking for in your new home that is going to make it enticing for you?

The most important thing is fit with the people you're working with. So, I mean, I like to work in an entrepreneurial environment. I like to there to be a lot of interaction. I don't think that legal is a support function. That's sort of the last stop. I think it's important that the general counsel, chief legal officer, be viewed as somebody who is a peer with the other members of the C suite. You should be somebody who's got good ideas and you have your legal expertise. Right. And so I want to be part of an environment where you're strategizing together about the best path forward. That's the most important thing. And then in an industry where I could enjoy it, is this something that I think is fun to learn about, fun to do? And for me, that's mainly consumer, food, hospitality, retail versus tech. A lot of people want to do tech. That's not me. I had an opportunity come to me several months ago that was payroll, entertainment payroll. That was not my sort of sweet spot. I'm looking more for consumer brands. It'd be great to have an international component to it, since I've worked overseas and I enjoy that. I mean, I would say what I like the most in my job is learning and collaborating.

Yeah, I think that's probably true for most people. When you consider the. How is the GC role set up? You mentioned, Is it at the tables? Is it seen as a peer to the other C suite? How much of that do you think is the role of that individual to come in and craft how they're perceived and what seat that they have or is that just structural is that legacy from whose shoes you're filling from before? Like, how can you tell that? And how much of it is your own responsibility to charter your path to that seat?

That's a great question. I think it's a little of both. I don't think if you're given a role that doesn't report into the CEO, that regardless of how you hold yourself, you're going to be perceived as a peer with the other C Suite members. That is something that you often see being discussed among GCs is, should I take this role if it doesn't report to the CEO? And I think it's that your first role and that's the way you want your foot in the door, fine. But the truth is, if you're not reporting to the CEO and you're reporting to somebody else in the C Suite, then you're not going to be viewed as somebody who has that same level of decision making. And people can like you and they can think you've got great ideas and maybe you can overcome it, but it's a little more difficult. And I've learned from my own experience. One of the roles that I took actually had the Chief Legal Officer title, but it had a dotted line into the CEO. The board members called me and said, it's just a piece of paper. Don't worry about it. And so I said, okay, if it's just a piece of paper, I'm not gonna worry about it. And it made a big difference, quite honestly. I didn't have visibility into my budget until about six months in when I really was ferreting out this information. And it was also, it told me something I should have picked up from the beginning is how does the CEO view the legal function? And what's interesting is after I left, then the. The role was not filled for many months, and then eventually when it was filled, it did refer report to the CEO. Help that next person.

I have seen that story. I've been in this world advocating for the legal ops role to report directly to the GC and the GC to directly report to the CEO, which I.

Think, well, who does the Legal ops role report to, if not the gc?

It should, because everything else doesn't make a lot of sense. But in large organizations, there might just be too many directs and there's a gc. Right. And can it be done? Can the GC also report to a CFO or coo? Absolutely. And I think you made the point. It totally can work. It just makes it a little harder from Time to time on certain things.

And I will say again, I thought Legal Ops was my secret weapon, frankly, because I could not make a good argument to hire more people to basically laud the function without the math. I had to say, look, this is how much we've saved compared to last year. I had to come up with a whole bunch of KPIs and metrics that came from Legal Ops. Right?

Yes, yes, it is. It is the secret sauce. And every good GC has got a right hand in, in that. So the other interesting thing that I think you and I have talked about as you assess these roles is asked you the difference kind of between a GC and a C Lo and is it really just scope beyond Legal? But you had an interesting observation kind of on that like seat at the table or how you're viewed by the rest of the C Suite. That title can matter. Doesn't always have to matter, but is. Yeah, expand on that.

It's interesting because that's also been a subject of conversation among GCLOs and I've been both. And frankly, if there was a good opportunity in front of me, I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time worrying about that. However, I mean, I do think that most of the C suite has a cheap title. Right. So it doesn't make sense, but really to have a Chief Marketing Officer, Chief Financial Officer, Chief Human Resources Officer. Why wouldn't you also call the other person Chief Legal Officer? Again, just a marker of. These people are all on the same level.

Yeah.

However, some companies have always called the person the GC and they don't want to change it and they still view that person as a valued member of the executive team. Fine, great. Shouldn't worry about it. And there's some very big companies that still. I think the Amazon GC is a GC and he just got a bonus for 25 million. So yeah, not bad.

I take that role. And then there's on the flip side of that, there's smaller companies who have a first time hire and often call it something like Head of Legal.

Right. So that, that is, is probably not a good development. Right. Because oftentimes that Head of Legal does not report into the CEO. It reports into another function like cfo and it's generally less well compensated. They're targeting it for somebody who's a little more junior than somebody you would typically see as a general counsel. And when that happens, it's because it's generally more of a startup organization. They've never worked with Legal before. They have no idea what the title would be. And so I think that's just an education point. But I would also say you can't get too hung up on title. If it's a startup, everybody's just rowing in the same direction on the boat, and you don't want to be too focused on that. You want to be focused on how can I help this company win, how can I be a real partner to my peers here? And then once you've built that relationship, the title will come.

Yeah. And titles and responsibilities at startups change so quickly because the company you join is not the same company it is when it's doubled a year later, doubled again the year after that. So the scope of the role changes. And I mean, it also buys a little bit of flexibility for the startup founder or CEO who might need something from legal today. But then when you're about to go public or you're about to do some big financing, you need a different kind of leader at the helm, a different set of experience for your, quote, head of legal, whatever that title is. So, yeah, it changes. And there's things that you can probably do to set yourself up, to stick around as and then become the gc. But it seems like it could also be a hedge for layering someone above when needed.

I've not seen that happen. What I've generally seen is that person will then morph into the general counsel.

That's the hope, right?

Yeah, yeah. It was just a way to sort of get somebody legal in house, not pay them too much money, and then as the company matures, really get them into the general counsel role. Yeah, because it's expanded. Right. The company got bigger, there were more sophisticated legal issues, and then you could really move that person up.

Are there anything that you think are red flags as you consider opportunities like you. Again, you've seen different places. And are there things that you're like, oh, no, I'm not going to join a company that has xyz.

There was one company that I was interviewing for several years ago, and actually the general counsel did not attend the board meetings. They had outside counsel attend the board meetings, even though that GC was also the secretary. But that's a red flag. And this particular company, which was public, it was controlled. A controlled public company. So that founder had a very strong relationship with that outside counsel. Completely understandable. And I think eventually that person who was brought in as the general counsel, the idea was eventually that person will probably be secretary to the board, sitting at the board. But I wasn't willing to Trust that I'd been through enough experiences where what's explained isn't necessarily what's. What actually pans out. So I think that what I'm on the lookout for is weird stuff like that. I want to be assured that the CEO and the rest of the C suite want the legal person to really be a partner. And so that's viewed in how you're compensated, what your title is, what your role is. Are you part of the meetings? There was another place I was interviewing where I was told that GC won't be part of these meetings, the executive team meetings, because we don't want a legal person present. We're talking business. Okay. That's not the place for me.

Yeah, okay, I see how you view legal. Okay, fine.

Somebody else for that one. So, yeah, it's all about, is it a good fit?

That's exciting. What advice do you have for folks that are stepping into the seat of the general counsel for the first time and learning with that sort of imposter syndrome?

First of all, I would reach out to GC peers. They don't necessarily have to be competitors. That might be a little odd, but people, you know, who are at general counsels, at organizations similar to yours, because they can help you a lot in terms of industry trends, associations, you're often targets from the same plaintiff's council. Right. So those people can really help you along. And then I would also say you've got to gain the trust of your peers and then your own team when you're the new person. And this is something I didn't appreciate very well, is there's a lot of concern, right? There's a concern with change. What is this person going to do to my job? What is this person going to do to the department? As much as you think what you're communicating is coming across, because there's fear, it sometimes is not heard. And so you've got to find a way to communicate. And people hear things in different ways. Right.

So true.

Yeah. You've got to find the way to communicate it to each person so they hear it and they feel safe. Because without that feeling of safety, your team is not going to thrive. And I wish I had appreciated that a little bit more. I mean, my style is very direct, and whatever is required to get done, I'm going to do it, and I'm going to find a way. And other people, they need a little more massaging.

So what would you tell your old self in those roles? Like, how do you gain that trust when there's People who are anxious, I.

Think you got to sort of put the job stuff aside and then just focus on the person, right. We've got to like really make an effort to get to know who they are, what are they interested in. Tell me about your family, tell me about your background. And not so much focus on the job, that's also important, but get them to feel like you're looking at them as a person. When I look at, when I have really succeeded at places with, you know, people together, it's because there was that element of friendship, right, that that you really sort of understood what this person cares about, what this person's good at, what this person may not be so good at. There's a sense of humor when you're just doing a task alongside somebody. You can get it done, but you might not have spectacular results. I sometimes push a little too hard on the procedural part and trying to sort of reach the goal and I forget about that personal part. My time at Panera really did teach me that if I could have done this over, even though we were in the pandemic and we were going to hold a get together because of the pandemic, people didn't want to come. They're like, some people hadn't been vaccinated and they might get Covid and I should have insisted, okay, if you don't want to go, you don't have to go. But some people do want to go. I didn't push enough to sort of gel the team and I regret that that's hard.

I mean, that was a crazy time. Who could have known what the right answer was? But appreciate your vulnerability and putting that out there. You've now been here, you were in private practice, you went to the client side, you have this unique sort of inside, outside role at a law firm. Again, what should we all be thinking about as we plow into the future as clients, as legal leaders, as law firms? The world is going to be so different. I mean, we're really being disruptive. There's so much change. I think when you land your next role in house, it's probably going to feel different than what you've done before because of technology, AI, pressures of relationships with law firm. I guess long way of asking, like, how do you think we should all be thinking about where we're going?

I think, for example, what Goodwin's really focusing on in terms of AI and innovation, that is really going to be an unlock for in house legal departments who don't have the budgets really to spend on that. So if law firms can invest and find a good way to partner with the in house departments, that is really going to be something that's going to cause companies to find you. And so with AI also, people are expecting legal fees to go down. There's going to be a lot of sort of do it yourself if the legal department doesn't get right on it. Right. I can. AI will help me with this contract. So legal has to find a way to communicate. It's not just the boilerplate that we're bringing you. Right. We're trying to help you strategize, to figure a path forward. We help you build the road. Right. And so legal departments are going to have to get good at showing themselves to be operational partners. And then law firms are going to have to be the tool, the resource that helps them do that.

Yeah, that's right. It's. Oh God, it's so fun. I mean, this could go in so many different ways. And how do you train young people? And what is the value that clients are looking for? And clients of the clients, meaning the business side of the organization where you're general counsel. They're going to be asking and looking to legal for different things. So anyway, I keep saying this is such a fun time to be alive in the world of legal. Genevieve, it's been such a pleasure. I'm so appreciative of your time and sharing your experience. So thank you for being here.

Yes, thank you, Mary. It was fun.

Yes. And to everyone who's listening, we'll see you next time.